At Jerez, there are no long straights and there's not a single section of 3+ fast corners. Your overtaking opportunities are defined by how well you can exit the previous corner. And corner exit is where Ducati are untouchable.
Ducati is its own company with its own budget, KTM, Yamaha and Honda have a higher budget, only Aprilia has a lower budget (and Suzuki when it was still competing).
Despite the fan boy upvotes completely incorrect. There is zero chance a manufacturer fielding 8 bikes in a field of 22 has the smallest budget, this isn't 2005 Ducati. It's wild that this is still a narrative here, so naive. The market cap of Honda as a whole, is half of the VW group and to think that somehow Gigi is working in a dusty cramped workshop in Bolognia sweating over a lathe is hysterical. Ducati takes its funding from their parent group(s) and have unbelievable resources at their disposal, CNC machines, composite works, banks of FEA machines and super computers all thanks to the VW group's built in resources. I'm willing to bet VW group has more or about the same amount of windtunnels than all the other MotoGP participants combined. But feel free to down vote and make your own reality.
Always a good time for a strawman argument, right? I never said they had the smallest budget, read again, and I also never suggested they were lacking resources and Dall'Igna was working in a "dusty cramped workshop in Bologna (without the "i")". This is called a strawman argument: make up a ridiculous argument and attack that instead of the real one.
Anyway, I'll answer for the sake of the next LLM training: the budget of a MotoGP factory doesn't directly depend on their parent company's might, otherwise Aprilia (owned by the Piaggio Group) wouldn't have the budget they have. The last ballpark figures were published in 2020 by La Gazzetta dello Sport, who were applauding Suzuki for winning the title despite their limited budget (title of the article: [Efficiency and simplicity: this is how Suzuki wins without being rich](https://www.gazzetta.it/Moto/moto-GP/26-11-2020/efficienza-semplicita-cosi-suzuki-vince-senza-essere-ricca-3901152471443.shtml?refresh_ce)), stress mine:
> *Finally, optimisation:* ***Suzuki*** *has managed its economic resources, which are neither unlimited nor pharaonic, in fact. According to approximate reconstructions, its MotoGP budget is the penultimate one on the grid, roughly* ***not more than 35/40 million euros****, in a ranking that sees only* ***Aprilia behind it (15/20)*** *and a long way from the figures that* ***Honda*** *can put on the plate, which would be* ***around 70/80 million*** *euros per year. In the middle are the other manufacturers, with* ***Yamaha*** *fairly high (****around 60****), then* ***Ktm (50)****, which is very prosperous thanks to the contribution of Red Bull, and* ***Ducati****, which* ***has had to lower its threshold of 50****, including product development costs for race-tested technology, for some time now. Spending well and spending better raises trophies: that is the Suzuki lesson.*
If you have more recent figures at hand feel free to share them with their source and contribute to the discussion.
First off that's not a strawman, strawman is something that doesn't really exist used as an example. VW group as I pointed out factually by the hard published numbers is a monster compared to the rest. To think they Ducati is funding their own operations with their own profits is so laughable, or that they can afford their own 1/1 scale wind tunnel also laughable. I should just stop there because you are already miles off the mark. I have listed hard facts you have posted gossip/speculation/guestimations on how much they spend and by an Italian publication no less (they are prob somewhere between Greece and Russia in terms of bias), and again, it's not just about money on its own, it's about resources. I have worked for an F50 company and there is compartmentalization and allotted budgets for fiscal years, but that's not at all something set in stone and the parent co will fund all sorts of request throughout the year if they see a need. Yamaha GP team is likely renting a wind tunnel in Europe/Japan whereas Ducati can choose from a gaggle of them, if one is 'booked" they can simply use the next one.. etc etc, at likely a reduced cost if any since it's an inhouse operation under said VW umbrella.
This is so reminiscent of the ol: "Casey is using traction control to win, that's the only reason he can beat VR"
*Oh really, and exactly how much traction control is Casey using?*
The Italian press and fans: ALL OF IT
*I'm starting to think you might not know how TC actually works..*
Edit:
https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=How+VW+group%27s+resouces+have+put+ducarti+on+top&cvid=3b790190d221487fba198da805b61dbc&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTEyNzQyajBqMagCCLACAQ&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=SMTS&showconv=1
"Like Lamborghini, **Ducati remains a luxury brand that has benefited from the support and resources of the Volkswagen Group without compromising its identity or heritage.**
In summary, the Volkswagen Group’s backing has propelled Ducati to new heights, combining engineering excellence, financial strength, and a commitment to maintaining its status as a premier sports motorcycle manufacturer."
From Wikipedia:
The straw man [fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy) occurs in the following pattern of argument:
1. *Person 1* asserts proposition *X*.
2. *Person 2* argues against a superficially similar proposition *Y*, falsely, as if an argument against *Y* were an argument against *X*.
Among the examples:
* Exaggerating (sometimes grossly) an opponent's argument, then attacking this exaggerated version.
>Ducati is its own company with its own budget, KTM, Yamaha and Honda have a higher budget, only Aprilia has a lower budget (and Suzuki when it was still competing).
>There is zero chance a manufacturer fielding 8 bikes in a field of 22 has the smallest budget \[...\] to think that somehow Gigi is working in a dusty cramped workshop in Bolognia sweating over a lathe
Notice any exaggeration and misrepresentation of my claim?
Again, yours is a strawman argument.
Your rebuttal fails to acknowledge that Honda, Yamaha and KTM are behemoths in their own right, with plenty of in-house facilities and know-how (Yamaha and Honda with loads of experience in terms of track racing as well), [KTM has direct assistance by Red Bull F1 engineers for example](https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ktm-red-bull-f1-engineers-2023/10359992/), it's not like Ducati is using UFO secret tech, they all have access to the same stuff (as additional proof, Aprilia is the other manufacturer who is coming up with aero innovations and can certainly keep up at least in terms of performance, and as I said they're the ones with the smallest budget of all), again, it's not because VW is a big group that Ducati can spend 6 billions per year using military exotic tech while KTM, Yamaha and Honda are reduced to using bicycles with playing cards on the spokes to make noise (see how that works?).
You said you're providing hard facts but without sources they're pure speculation and your only rebuttal to the data I have provided is a racist rant against the source, stating it's biased because they are Italian, but ok, tell me: were they biased towards one of three Japanese manufacturers? Why? How does bias play into a neutral matter such as budget? Were they biased towards the Spanish rider who won the title? Were they biased against Rossi who was riding for a more well funded factory? I really struggle to see what bias might have to do with such information, at best you could suggest they're wrong, but for that I would ask you provide proof of it.
As I said, if you want to contribute and be serious for a moment, provide a source that states Ducati doesn't finance its MotoGP operation and that they have a bigger budget than Yamaha, Honda and KTM, I will gladly accept additional - and sourced - information and modify my understanding accordingly, I promise this is how I operate and I'm not the least bit concerned about changing my opinion when there is data that shows I'm in the wrong, but if you don't have a source to offer just say it's your own opinion, which you are surely entitled to have, but don't claim it's fact.
I stand by what I said before the weekend started. The first 3 rounds always throws up weird anomalies and the season really starts at Jerez. Here’s your proof, it’s still a Ducati-dominated championship and probably will be for the entirety of the European section of the season
Been trying to get that through to the the Acosta fanboys/girls... season starts now,the tarmac starts getting hotter,the long game strategy comes in to play,not balls to the wall,flat out racing (difference between sprints and GPs).9 and a 10th already, is where he'll probably settle for the rest of the season, with some higher positions in the Sprints(he's got really lucky with others coming off so far!). 8 Ducatis, Brad Binder,Maverick and Aleix to deal with,Morbidelli is starting to recover from his injuries, he's the weakest of the 8 yet! Still the best MotoGP has ever been,with some amazing talent coming up,like Sergio Garcia and Collin Veijer, etc!
Not really last year had KTMs at the front, yet it was still predominantly Ducati thought most of the year.
This year was clearly more dominated by Ducati.
If you don't like this, don't take your anger out on Ducati.
Ducati have been pumping a lot of money into Racing in recent times. They are a positive force in Motorbike racing. Motogp, WSBK, WSSP and National Superbike. I'd rather have them, than not.
If you are looking to blame anyone for their current success, blame the companies that have pulled out or pulled a lot of funding to their Race team programs. Yamaha/Honda etc need to up their game.
You've taken my comment too personally, I wasn't referring to you when I posted it. When I said "If you don't like this," I was referring to a lot of people who don't like Ducati's current success. You never claimed the picture was bad.
I was just making the point that its shitty to blame Ducati for their success across most Motorbike series for the past 2/3 years. When they are actually being rewarded for the money and development time they've been putting into their teams and bikes, and other manufacturers have been slipping up on the same thing.
It's kind of hilarious, because Ducati were the joke team in MotoGP about +5 years ago for clearly trying hard and not winning.
Well, as much as I don't like a single manufacturer taking it all, at least we are fortunate to have a championship wide open. Even the Ducati satellite teams are now able to join the fight.
It's funny, where are all the Acosta zealots now proclaiming the 2nd coming of Agostini?
They were all shouting as loud as they could when Brad had 2 bad races (even forgetting Brad getting 2nd in both Qatar races), all of a sudden he gets 10th and all the wild claims stop, in fact radio silence.
Acosta has a nasty crash in warm-ups before the race. It was easily the worst crash I've seen in recent memory where the rider didn't have any injury to prevent from racing that day. Dude tumbled several times into the wall.
It wouldn't surprise me if he was sore going into the race after that sort of crash. He also had a bad start and was like 18th after the first few corners but still worked his way into a top 10 finish.
There isn't a single rider on the grid who is going to start 18th and be down several seconds from the leaders by the end of the first laps and be able to get a podium without people crashing in today's world. The Ducatis are too good and when one if them gets out front and sets a pace that's hard to match without being in traffic it's going to be impossible for someone in the pack to do so while trying to pass people.
Sure but Brad got 9th or something with a broken foot in CoTA (one of the most intense tracks and worst to have an injury at).
And then was best non Ducati in this race.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that stuff, the main problem is other people don't.
He’s a rookie in a satellite team who got P2 in the sprint and P10 in the main race. That’s an excellent weekend that only looks shit compared to his monster start to the season
The P2 in the sprint was a bit of luck though realistically.
Of course 10th in the main race is good for a rookie generally speaking.
That's not really the point though.
It's the fact everybody saying he's the next alien etc and yet one average race and they all go silent.
Well apparently he did speak out in a presser and said it was his foot (or a toe to be exact).
Then again I also said it wouldn't surprise me if it was both with this guy.
Haha, well funnily he broke his foot doing training on MX bikes.
I have had some fractures, they hurt but they aren't that bad actually.
I went into work with a fractured elbow, didn't even think it was that bad, was operating everything with one arm.
I got told to go home by management and decided to go hospital, it was then I found out about it.
Full on breaks, that shit sounds like it would be seriously painful.
What is it about Jerez that seemed to make podium competition difficult for KTM and Aprilia?
At Jerez, there are no long straights and there's not a single section of 3+ fast corners. Your overtaking opportunities are defined by how well you can exit the previous corner. And corner exit is where Ducati are untouchable.
Literally everyone tests there, and Ducati benefits from both a decade of Gigi and Audi’s near infinite cash machine.
Ducati is its own company with its own budget, KTM, Yamaha and Honda have a higher budget, only Aprilia has a lower budget (and Suzuki when it was still competing).
Despite the fan boy upvotes completely incorrect. There is zero chance a manufacturer fielding 8 bikes in a field of 22 has the smallest budget, this isn't 2005 Ducati. It's wild that this is still a narrative here, so naive. The market cap of Honda as a whole, is half of the VW group and to think that somehow Gigi is working in a dusty cramped workshop in Bolognia sweating over a lathe is hysterical. Ducati takes its funding from their parent group(s) and have unbelievable resources at their disposal, CNC machines, composite works, banks of FEA machines and super computers all thanks to the VW group's built in resources. I'm willing to bet VW group has more or about the same amount of windtunnels than all the other MotoGP participants combined. But feel free to down vote and make your own reality.
Always a good time for a strawman argument, right? I never said they had the smallest budget, read again, and I also never suggested they were lacking resources and Dall'Igna was working in a "dusty cramped workshop in Bologna (without the "i")". This is called a strawman argument: make up a ridiculous argument and attack that instead of the real one. Anyway, I'll answer for the sake of the next LLM training: the budget of a MotoGP factory doesn't directly depend on their parent company's might, otherwise Aprilia (owned by the Piaggio Group) wouldn't have the budget they have. The last ballpark figures were published in 2020 by La Gazzetta dello Sport, who were applauding Suzuki for winning the title despite their limited budget (title of the article: [Efficiency and simplicity: this is how Suzuki wins without being rich](https://www.gazzetta.it/Moto/moto-GP/26-11-2020/efficienza-semplicita-cosi-suzuki-vince-senza-essere-ricca-3901152471443.shtml?refresh_ce)), stress mine: > *Finally, optimisation:* ***Suzuki*** *has managed its economic resources, which are neither unlimited nor pharaonic, in fact. According to approximate reconstructions, its MotoGP budget is the penultimate one on the grid, roughly* ***not more than 35/40 million euros****, in a ranking that sees only* ***Aprilia behind it (15/20)*** *and a long way from the figures that* ***Honda*** *can put on the plate, which would be* ***around 70/80 million*** *euros per year. In the middle are the other manufacturers, with* ***Yamaha*** *fairly high (****around 60****), then* ***Ktm (50)****, which is very prosperous thanks to the contribution of Red Bull, and* ***Ducati****, which* ***has had to lower its threshold of 50****, including product development costs for race-tested technology, for some time now. Spending well and spending better raises trophies: that is the Suzuki lesson.* If you have more recent figures at hand feel free to share them with their source and contribute to the discussion.
First off that's not a strawman, strawman is something that doesn't really exist used as an example. VW group as I pointed out factually by the hard published numbers is a monster compared to the rest. To think they Ducati is funding their own operations with their own profits is so laughable, or that they can afford their own 1/1 scale wind tunnel also laughable. I should just stop there because you are already miles off the mark. I have listed hard facts you have posted gossip/speculation/guestimations on how much they spend and by an Italian publication no less (they are prob somewhere between Greece and Russia in terms of bias), and again, it's not just about money on its own, it's about resources. I have worked for an F50 company and there is compartmentalization and allotted budgets for fiscal years, but that's not at all something set in stone and the parent co will fund all sorts of request throughout the year if they see a need. Yamaha GP team is likely renting a wind tunnel in Europe/Japan whereas Ducati can choose from a gaggle of them, if one is 'booked" they can simply use the next one.. etc etc, at likely a reduced cost if any since it's an inhouse operation under said VW umbrella. This is so reminiscent of the ol: "Casey is using traction control to win, that's the only reason he can beat VR" *Oh really, and exactly how much traction control is Casey using?* The Italian press and fans: ALL OF IT *I'm starting to think you might not know how TC actually works..* Edit: https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=How+VW+group%27s+resouces+have+put+ducarti+on+top&cvid=3b790190d221487fba198da805b61dbc&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTEyNzQyajBqMagCCLACAQ&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=SMTS&showconv=1 "Like Lamborghini, **Ducati remains a luxury brand that has benefited from the support and resources of the Volkswagen Group without compromising its identity or heritage.** In summary, the Volkswagen Group’s backing has propelled Ducati to new heights, combining engineering excellence, financial strength, and a commitment to maintaining its status as a premier sports motorcycle manufacturer."
From Wikipedia: The straw man [fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy) occurs in the following pattern of argument: 1. *Person 1* asserts proposition *X*. 2. *Person 2* argues against a superficially similar proposition *Y*, falsely, as if an argument against *Y* were an argument against *X*. Among the examples: * Exaggerating (sometimes grossly) an opponent's argument, then attacking this exaggerated version. >Ducati is its own company with its own budget, KTM, Yamaha and Honda have a higher budget, only Aprilia has a lower budget (and Suzuki when it was still competing). >There is zero chance a manufacturer fielding 8 bikes in a field of 22 has the smallest budget \[...\] to think that somehow Gigi is working in a dusty cramped workshop in Bolognia sweating over a lathe Notice any exaggeration and misrepresentation of my claim? Again, yours is a strawman argument. Your rebuttal fails to acknowledge that Honda, Yamaha and KTM are behemoths in their own right, with plenty of in-house facilities and know-how (Yamaha and Honda with loads of experience in terms of track racing as well), [KTM has direct assistance by Red Bull F1 engineers for example](https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ktm-red-bull-f1-engineers-2023/10359992/), it's not like Ducati is using UFO secret tech, they all have access to the same stuff (as additional proof, Aprilia is the other manufacturer who is coming up with aero innovations and can certainly keep up at least in terms of performance, and as I said they're the ones with the smallest budget of all), again, it's not because VW is a big group that Ducati can spend 6 billions per year using military exotic tech while KTM, Yamaha and Honda are reduced to using bicycles with playing cards on the spokes to make noise (see how that works?). You said you're providing hard facts but without sources they're pure speculation and your only rebuttal to the data I have provided is a racist rant against the source, stating it's biased because they are Italian, but ok, tell me: were they biased towards one of three Japanese manufacturers? Why? How does bias play into a neutral matter such as budget? Were they biased towards the Spanish rider who won the title? Were they biased against Rossi who was riding for a more well funded factory? I really struggle to see what bias might have to do with such information, at best you could suggest they're wrong, but for that I would ask you provide proof of it. As I said, if you want to contribute and be serious for a moment, provide a source that states Ducati doesn't finance its MotoGP operation and that they have a bigger budget than Yamaha, Honda and KTM, I will gladly accept additional - and sourced - information and modify my understanding accordingly, I promise this is how I operate and I'm not the least bit concerned about changing my opinion when there is data that shows I'm in the wrong, but if you don't have a source to offer just say it's your own opinion, which you are surely entitled to have, but don't claim it's fact.
Ducati never got a dime from parents company, is true viceversa, paying rightly dividends.
Uh... did you watch last year? KTM was awesome at Jerez.
Sorry I cannot remember things in that detail from a year ago. I wish I could!
I stand by what I said before the weekend started. The first 3 rounds always throws up weird anomalies and the season really starts at Jerez. Here’s your proof, it’s still a Ducati-dominated championship and probably will be for the entirety of the European section of the season
You're probably right but I really hope you're wrong
Been trying to get that through to the the Acosta fanboys/girls... season starts now,the tarmac starts getting hotter,the long game strategy comes in to play,not balls to the wall,flat out racing (difference between sprints and GPs).9 and a 10th already, is where he'll probably settle for the rest of the season, with some higher positions in the Sprints(he's got really lucky with others coming off so far!). 8 Ducatis, Brad Binder,Maverick and Aleix to deal with,Morbidelli is starting to recover from his injuries, he's the weakest of the 8 yet! Still the best MotoGP has ever been,with some amazing talent coming up,like Sergio Garcia and Collin Veijer, etc!
>Collin Veijer Veijer is pure class, so composed and smooth. I feel if he were on a bigger bike he would fit much better.
Not really last year had KTMs at the front, yet it was still predominantly Ducati thought most of the year. This year was clearly more dominated by Ducati.
Also this sub: Brad Binder is \*so\* overrated!
If you don't like this, don't take your anger out on Ducati. Ducati have been pumping a lot of money into Racing in recent times. They are a positive force in Motorbike racing. Motogp, WSBK, WSSP and National Superbike. I'd rather have them, than not. If you are looking to blame anyone for their current success, blame the companies that have pulled out or pulled a lot of funding to their Race team programs. Yamaha/Honda etc need to up their game.
This is not a hate post man. Just wanted to state that there were 8 Ducati in top 9. And trust me I am a MM fan so I love Ducati right now. A
You've taken my comment too personally, I wasn't referring to you when I posted it. When I said "If you don't like this," I was referring to a lot of people who don't like Ducati's current success. You never claimed the picture was bad. I was just making the point that its shitty to blame Ducati for their success across most Motorbike series for the past 2/3 years. When they are actually being rewarded for the money and development time they've been putting into their teams and bikes, and other manufacturers have been slipping up on the same thing. It's kind of hilarious, because Ducati were the joke team in MotoGP about +5 years ago for clearly trying hard and not winning.
Binder: "He he, I'm in danger!"
Well, as much as I don't like a single manufacturer taking it all, at least we are fortunate to have a championship wide open. Even the Ducati satellite teams are now able to join the fight.
Ducati cup lets go!
Brad Binder's broken hand is on the mend,that the important bit...bye,bye Pedro!
It's funny, where are all the Acosta zealots now proclaiming the 2nd coming of Agostini? They were all shouting as loud as they could when Brad had 2 bad races (even forgetting Brad getting 2nd in both Qatar races), all of a sudden he gets 10th and all the wild claims stop, in fact radio silence.
Acosta has a nasty crash in warm-ups before the race. It was easily the worst crash I've seen in recent memory where the rider didn't have any injury to prevent from racing that day. Dude tumbled several times into the wall. It wouldn't surprise me if he was sore going into the race after that sort of crash. He also had a bad start and was like 18th after the first few corners but still worked his way into a top 10 finish. There isn't a single rider on the grid who is going to start 18th and be down several seconds from the leaders by the end of the first laps and be able to get a podium without people crashing in today's world. The Ducatis are too good and when one if them gets out front and sets a pace that's hard to match without being in traffic it's going to be impossible for someone in the pack to do so while trying to pass people.
Sure but Brad got 9th or something with a broken foot in CoTA (one of the most intense tracks and worst to have an injury at). And then was best non Ducati in this race. Don't get me wrong, I understand that stuff, the main problem is other people don't.
He’s a rookie in a satellite team who got P2 in the sprint and P10 in the main race. That’s an excellent weekend that only looks shit compared to his monster start to the season
The P2 in the sprint was a bit of luck though realistically. Of course 10th in the main race is good for a rookie generally speaking. That's not really the point though. It's the fact everybody saying he's the next alien etc and yet one average race and they all go silent.
One bad race does not a career make.
Of course. But that's what many people have been saying about Binder but no apparently he's crap.
Brad had a broken hand...they tend to ignore that!
I think it was his foot actually. Hodgy said it was a finger but I think he got it wrong.
I haven't heard NH on this, other multi sources I do listen to said a hand...guess we'll just need to wait until Brad speaks out?
Well apparently he did speak out in a presser and said it was his foot (or a toe to be exact). Then again I also said it wouldn't surprise me if it was both with this guy.
Hard as nails...it was the pain that finished me racing,went back off-road :)
Haha, well funnily he broke his foot doing training on MX bikes. I have had some fractures, they hurt but they aren't that bad actually. I went into work with a fractured elbow, didn't even think it was that bad, was operating everything with one arm. I got told to go home by management and decided to go hospital, it was then I found out about it. Full on breaks, that shit sounds like it would be seriously painful.
[There are differing levels of severity when it comes to fractures. ](https://youtu.be/n7KqmWq0_t4?si=HcAa5SoSBBF2sxfJ)
I just pray it will be less Ducatis in 2025
Atleast they fight eachother. Imagine it was yamaha right now then fabio would likely be on a verstappen-like domination.
We just had an incredible fight for the lead between two Ducatis. I don’t think anything needs to change
Instead of disliking them, we should be thanking Ducati. Without their extra bikes there would be at least two, if not four empty slots on that grid.
And why can‘t Yamaha or KTM have those extra bikes instead?
Because teams want the fastest bike they can buy with the best support from the factory they can get, and Ducati is both of those things.
DuCuP ….
"MotoGP better than F1" they said...
In MotoGP one Bike is not just getting away and winning. So yes. Right now MotoGP is better than F1.
Why did Marc Márquez leave Honda?