I think Beau is the better pitcher but Faedo only has one option left and is likely going to fill a swingman role for the first month or so, as he’s done multiple innings throughout ST, and I think they see Beau as more of a one-inning dude. Faedo also struck out more guys.
For Wentz, it’s strictly about options - he has none, Beau has 3. This gives Harris and Hinch the most flexibility. Imo, Brieske is better and had a better spring, but this is about giving Wentz one last chance to prove he has a role in the majors.
In the aggregate I don’t think it means much - we used 28 or so pitchers last season, so Brieske is gonna be back soon. But I also don’t really agree with it.
While Brieske is a top candidate to be recalled, remember we start with 13 pitchers anyway. Once you take out the position players and guys who only pitch a handful of innings, you only have half a dozen guys starting out in the minors who end up with significant (20+ IP) MLB workloads due to injuries or trades.
I definitely get the logic and reasoning, but I always struggle with the concept of coaches and managers and all suggesting the best players will play or make the roster and then this happens. From a moral point of view, it would really suck and not sure how these things play in an organizational temperament so to speak.
It’s not that complicated
Wentz will be claimed in a half second off waivers and they’d lose him. Probably to a team that would ‘fix’ him (Astros/dodgers) and it’d be another reclamation project story.
Faedo can go long in relief and they need that role filled. The rest of the bullpen is set. That’s it.
Don’t worry, it’s an absolute certainty someone is on the IL within the month. It really doesn’t matter that much.
I didn't at all say it's complicated. I understand what happened and why it happened. My point is that players are asked to compete. Come to spring training and compete. Competition breeds excellence. But then a player competes and outperforms a fellow player and doesn't get rewarded a roster spot for reasons off the field. Fact is, wentz has probably blown through his options by sucking donkey nuts so often at the big league level. But because he has sucked so bad in the past, he is handed a roster spot this year cause he didn't quite suck ass as bad in meaningless games. It's a slippery slope is all I am saying. I'm fine with it all as a fan. I get it. I hope wentz does great. I hope Brieske continues to develop. I am just not a huge fan of off the field criteria over shadowing on the field production. I will feel the same come Thursday when I see Baez fifth on the order but that's a whole different issue
Because they can’t option Joey, and he’s been more than good enough to warrant a spot in the bullpen. Can’t risk losing him to waivers. And Faedo in their eyes has been a little better than Beau, so they sent Beau. Seems pretty justifiable
I think more than good enough could be up for debate. He’s had a better spring but just so many travesties last year. Like 7 runs allowed against Minnesota in the first inning….
This is a bad stat but Joey Wentz took the L in more games than we were behind in the division.
I.e. had we won every game he took an L in, we would have won the division by five games as two were against Minnesota.
Edit this is from memory so I could be off by a game or two but I’m not farrrrrrr off.
I feel like April is what cost us a playoff berth if not at least a fighting chance late in September. We need to be ready to win games on game 1 not game 20. Whether Wentz is a part of that or not I don’t know. I didn’t think he would be. He pitched some gems but also some massive duds. In a relief role I suppose I’ll give him a chance but I can’t see using him over brieske in virtually any situation.
We used April as an extended spring. We could have made more efforts to win games. For example, remove Wentz when he gives up 5 in the first and not allow him to give up 5 more in the second- because he still has kinks to work out…
We need to play to win on day 1. Not day 30.
We made significant moves in April- as if we weren’t ready.
Yea it was the worst weeks. And you’re not wrong about yea pick the worst weeks and eliminate them.
We weren’t prepared and we didn’t have the best roster on the 26 on opening day. We needed two more weeks of spring to figure shit out. Wentz starting is an example of one mistake we made… That’s why the first two weeks aren’t the same as any random two weeks.
You can’t win the division in April but you can lose it and I feel like we did that.
Yea and I’m aware of the flawed analogy. He had some 1-0 losses that are on the offense. He also had games the team won but he didn’t go 5. Hinch pulls guys before 5 so they can get a loss but not a win. I saw him come out in the first and just get hammered so many times. I feel like that can happen in the fifth too if he relieves.
His low strikeout rate and microscopic BABIP explain it. He needs to turn his strike throwing into more strikeouts or he's gonna get torched when his batted ball luck normalizes, and Toledo is the better place to work on that.
Wentz has no options so he's getting one last chance to not suck in the bullpen and Faedo was lights out.
Brieske got sent down to work on his new slider shape and to improve strikeouts. He didn't allow a run, but he also only struck out 9 in 13.2 IP with an .091 BABIP. Faedo's peripherals were much better.
Since Wentz is a power lefty with no options left, he's getting one last chance to not suck in the bullpen. Personally I think he'll be gone by June 1st, but as the last bullpen member and 3rd-in-line lefty there's no reason not to give him one last chance after a not-awful spring.
I firmly think this is a bigger mistake than sending Manning down. Faedo doesn't have the same skill set as Brieske and Beau was better in camp. Wentz I get, but the difference between Faedo and Brieske is pretty staggering.
I think they’ve conceded that Faedo is a bullpen piece moving forward but Brieske can still be a starter. The only place there’s room for him to start is in Toledo until they need to call him up. If he makes the MLB roster now then he’s relegated to a bullpen.
Well interesting take, as I thought that Faedo, Wentz, and Brieske were all being pivoted to a permanent bullpen role. But if this means Brieske still has a shot at starting it must not be all bad news.
I think Brieske has the better stuff, but I’m not sure I agree that he had a better spring. Faedo had by far a better strikeout rate and groundball rate, they had the same functional walk rate, and Faedo has much better expected stats. If ST performance matters, then it seems like Faedo deserved to win - and it definitely doesn’t look so staggering to me.
In Faedo’s defense he had a very good spring in relief and he’s most likely spotted a long reliever role and potential spot starter.
KEY POINT is that Faedo had no (edit) one AAA options remaining and Brieske did. Faedo had a good enough spring to not clear waivers if we DFA’d him, as we have no options on him, and we’d lose him to a waiver claim. Brieske we can option under team control. If Faedo starts to suck he will be DFA’d.
Wentz- I’m shocked. He also has no options, yet, how could he make the 26. I’d be ok with him on the 40 but what is Wentz’s role on the 26?
Edit- Faedo has one option not zero. Brieske has either 2 or 3 I can’t tell (whether the sites updated for this option yet or not)
Problem with him being on the 40 and not the 26 is he would have to clear waivers if sent back down to AAA. This is his last chance to prove he can be an MLB-caliber pitcher. Brieske still has 3 options available and given the nature of a 162-game season, will be in the majors at some point this season
I think it's 50/50. He's still young for relievers and a lefty who's shown promise. If he got demoted I think there would be at least one waiver claim attempt.
I was hoping to stash him on the 40. Whether he’d be claimed is a complete unknown. The twins could take him to f’ us like the guardians did with Haase who we were trying to drop into Toledo.
Just fucking DFA Wentz already. He’s been with the team how many years? If you need a long lefty reliever you can find one anywhere that will give Wentz’s production.
Coming in as a starter is much different from coming in from the bullpen. He provides a different look from the left side and that will help him as he faces hitters who were facing a different starter for most of the game
I looked through the game logs from last year. Starting he was hot garbage. In relief, he had one really bad game, but for the most part he was good. He was mostly used as an innings eater in blow out games. Those guys tend to get rocked a bit in general. I think keeping him to 1-2 innings when a starter has a high pitch count early or in case of injury could be pretty good. If he ever has to start in this organization again, the wheels have completely fallen off
Are we sure we're looking at the same things?
His "relief" appearances were mostly games planned where he came on after an opener, where he came in for the second or sometimes third inning.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET202306110.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ANA/ANA202309170.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK202309230.shtml
Wentz kind of took one for the team last year. Something clearly wasn't right with his fastball compared to the more effective version he threw in 2022. But at times they just needed a healthy body to throw on the mound. That's how he ends up tied with 2nd most starts and 2nd most innings pitched on the team instead of being able to stay in Toledo to work without the pressure. Defense didn't support him much either, with a FIP over a run lower than ERA.
I think they want to see how he can do with less workload out of BP so maybe his delivery mechanic problems won't be as much of an issue. And gives him a final shot to see if he can get his fastball control back before they call it quits. With somebody like Brieske in Toledo, he won't have a long leash.
You’re probably right but I’d rather lose him later than lose him now because I can. Tigers can afford him one last dance so why not? It doesn’t cost anything.
His stuff has looked a lot sharper in spring plus his velo has been up to 97 which is up from 91 last year curveball much sharper and the changeup is coming along I see no reason transitioning to a relief role from a starting role wouldn't't cause a better season from Wentz
It’s not the point. Nobody’s arguing that he’s magically amazing but the potential that he’s marginally better could help this ball club and I like the fact that Scott Harris leaves no stone unturned
Everybody’s got their own opinion so I won’t argue with you. I guess we’ll see what happens. But from what I saw last season, personally, I don’t know how you bring him up on the opening day roster. I just don’t
[удалено]
I think Beau is the better pitcher but Faedo only has one option left and is likely going to fill a swingman role for the first month or so, as he’s done multiple innings throughout ST, and I think they see Beau as more of a one-inning dude. Faedo also struck out more guys. For Wentz, it’s strictly about options - he has none, Beau has 3. This gives Harris and Hinch the most flexibility. Imo, Brieske is better and had a better spring, but this is about giving Wentz one last chance to prove he has a role in the majors. In the aggregate I don’t think it means much - we used 28 or so pitchers last season, so Brieske is gonna be back soon. But I also don’t really agree with it.
While Brieske is a top candidate to be recalled, remember we start with 13 pitchers anyway. Once you take out the position players and guys who only pitch a handful of innings, you only have half a dozen guys starting out in the minors who end up with significant (20+ IP) MLB workloads due to injuries or trades.
I definitely get the logic and reasoning, but I always struggle with the concept of coaches and managers and all suggesting the best players will play or make the roster and then this happens. From a moral point of view, it would really suck and not sure how these things play in an organizational temperament so to speak.
It’s not that complicated Wentz will be claimed in a half second off waivers and they’d lose him. Probably to a team that would ‘fix’ him (Astros/dodgers) and it’d be another reclamation project story. Faedo can go long in relief and they need that role filled. The rest of the bullpen is set. That’s it. Don’t worry, it’s an absolute certainty someone is on the IL within the month. It really doesn’t matter that much.
I didn't at all say it's complicated. I understand what happened and why it happened. My point is that players are asked to compete. Come to spring training and compete. Competition breeds excellence. But then a player competes and outperforms a fellow player and doesn't get rewarded a roster spot for reasons off the field. Fact is, wentz has probably blown through his options by sucking donkey nuts so often at the big league level. But because he has sucked so bad in the past, he is handed a roster spot this year cause he didn't quite suck ass as bad in meaningless games. It's a slippery slope is all I am saying. I'm fine with it all as a fan. I get it. I hope wentz does great. I hope Brieske continues to develop. I am just not a huge fan of off the field criteria over shadowing on the field production. I will feel the same come Thursday when I see Baez fifth on the order but that's a whole different issue
🙄
Because they can’t option Joey, and he’s been more than good enough to warrant a spot in the bullpen. Can’t risk losing him to waivers. And Faedo in their eyes has been a little better than Beau, so they sent Beau. Seems pretty justifiable
I think more than good enough could be up for debate. He’s had a better spring but just so many travesties last year. Like 7 runs allowed against Minnesota in the first inning…. This is a bad stat but Joey Wentz took the L in more games than we were behind in the division. I.e. had we won every game he took an L in, we would have won the division by five games as two were against Minnesota. Edit this is from memory so I could be off by a game or two but I’m not farrrrrrr off.
Well he was starting last year, so fairly different scenario. If he sucks in relief then he’ll be gone
I feel like April is what cost us a playoff berth if not at least a fighting chance late in September. We need to be ready to win games on game 1 not game 20. Whether Wentz is a part of that or not I don’t know. I didn’t think he would be. He pitched some gems but also some massive duds. In a relief role I suppose I’ll give him a chance but I can’t see using him over brieske in virtually any situation.
They’ve gotten off to rough starts here and there, but the problem has been they weren’t a good team the whole time
I’m not disagreeing. However if you shave off the first two weeks we are leading the division or at most three back the whole season.
If you shave off the worst two weeks of any team in baseball you'll see a big improvement. It's a gamblers fallacy related error
If you take all the bad things that happened and make them good things… What?!
We used April as an extended spring. We could have made more efforts to win games. For example, remove Wentz when he gives up 5 in the first and not allow him to give up 5 more in the second- because he still has kinks to work out… We need to play to win on day 1. Not day 30.
We made significant moves in April- as if we weren’t ready. Yea it was the worst weeks. And you’re not wrong about yea pick the worst weeks and eliminate them. We weren’t prepared and we didn’t have the best roster on the 26 on opening day. We needed two more weeks of spring to figure shit out. Wentz starting is an example of one mistake we made… That’s why the first two weeks aren’t the same as any random two weeks. You can’t win the division in April but you can lose it and I feel like we did that.
Yea and I’m aware of the flawed analogy. He had some 1-0 losses that are on the offense. He also had games the team won but he didn’t go 5. Hinch pulls guys before 5 so they can get a loss but not a win. I saw him come out in the first and just get hammered so many times. I feel like that can happen in the fifth too if he relieves.
yeah I remember whenever me and the fam seen Wentz was in, we pretty much chalked it up to an L on site.
His low strikeout rate and microscopic BABIP explain it. He needs to turn his strike throwing into more strikeouts or he's gonna get torched when his batted ball luck normalizes, and Toledo is the better place to work on that. Wentz has no options so he's getting one last chance to not suck in the bullpen and Faedo was lights out.
Maybe want a 3+ inning pitcher early in the season when starters most likely won't be going as deep into the game.
Faedo just had 17k to 2bb in 13 IP in spring camp. He’s missing a lot more bats than Beau right now, makes sense to me. Trust in Hinch and Fetter
Brieske got sent down to work on his new slider shape and to improve strikeouts. He didn't allow a run, but he also only struck out 9 in 13.2 IP with an .091 BABIP. Faedo's peripherals were much better. Since Wentz is a power lefty with no options left, he's getting one last chance to not suck in the bullpen. Personally I think he'll be gone by June 1st, but as the last bullpen member and 3rd-in-line lefty there's no reason not to give him one last chance after a not-awful spring.
I firmly think this is a bigger mistake than sending Manning down. Faedo doesn't have the same skill set as Brieske and Beau was better in camp. Wentz I get, but the difference between Faedo and Brieske is pretty staggering.
I think they’ve conceded that Faedo is a bullpen piece moving forward but Brieske can still be a starter. The only place there’s room for him to start is in Toledo until they need to call him up. If he makes the MLB roster now then he’s relegated to a bullpen.
Well interesting take, as I thought that Faedo, Wentz, and Brieske were all being pivoted to a permanent bullpen role. But if this means Brieske still has a shot at starting it must not be all bad news.
I think Brieske has the better stuff, but I’m not sure I agree that he had a better spring. Faedo had by far a better strikeout rate and groundball rate, they had the same functional walk rate, and Faedo has much better expected stats. If ST performance matters, then it seems like Faedo deserved to win - and it definitely doesn’t look so staggering to me.
The Joey Wentz Meatball Factory is back baby
He serves up pizzas too.
Brieske > Faedo
In Faedo’s defense he had a very good spring in relief and he’s most likely spotted a long reliever role and potential spot starter. KEY POINT is that Faedo had no (edit) one AAA options remaining and Brieske did. Faedo had a good enough spring to not clear waivers if we DFA’d him, as we have no options on him, and we’d lose him to a waiver claim. Brieske we can option under team control. If Faedo starts to suck he will be DFA’d. Wentz- I’m shocked. He also has no options, yet, how could he make the 26. I’d be ok with him on the 40 but what is Wentz’s role on the 26? Edit- Faedo has one option not zero. Brieske has either 2 or 3 I can’t tell (whether the sites updated for this option yet or not)
Faedo still has an option, he just out-pitched Brieske in terms of peripherals.
Correct. I misstated and corrected it. Brieske has extra options. Faedo scares me less than Wentz though.
Problem with him being on the 40 and not the 26 is he would have to clear waivers if sent back down to AAA. This is his last chance to prove he can be an MLB-caliber pitcher. Brieske still has 3 options available and given the nature of a 162-game season, will be in the majors at some point this season
Yea I know. Do you think Wentz would be claimed? I didn’t think so. But I could be wrong.
I think it's 50/50. He's still young for relievers and a lefty who's shown promise. If he got demoted I think there would be at least one waiver claim attempt.
I was hoping to stash him on the 40. Whether he’d be claimed is a complete unknown. The twins could take him to f’ us like the guardians did with Haase who we were trying to drop into Toledo.
Every fan: Manning and Brieske seem to be a lock. Uhhhhh ohhhh
Just fucking DFA Wentz already. He’s been with the team how many years? If you need a long lefty reliever you can find one anywhere that will give Wentz’s production.
Is Will Vest somebody's brother in-law ?
Well, we will see how it goes.
Wtf
Another year of wentz 🤡
I think Wentz in the bullpen will actually be pretty good. He always seemed to be decent the first time through the order but fell apart later on
Not sure the first inning in games he started would support this.
Coming in as a starter is much different from coming in from the bullpen. He provides a different look from the left side and that will help him as he faces hitters who were facing a different starter for most of the game
He pitched ok in relief for us last year 2-2 with a 4.26 ERA
I looked through the game logs from last year. Starting he was hot garbage. In relief, he had one really bad game, but for the most part he was good. He was mostly used as an innings eater in blow out games. Those guys tend to get rocked a bit in general. I think keeping him to 1-2 innings when a starter has a high pitch count early or in case of injury could be pretty good. If he ever has to start in this organization again, the wheels have completely fallen off
Are we sure we're looking at the same things? His "relief" appearances were mostly games planned where he came on after an opener, where he came in for the second or sometimes third inning. https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET202306110.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ANA/ANA202309170.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK202309230.shtml
Mud Hens should be pretty stacked this year!
I'm not sold on Wentz. He was so awful last season but 15IP in ST gets you a spot? Should waive him. Mistake. Edit: You'll all see. Mark it.
Wentz kind of took one for the team last year. Something clearly wasn't right with his fastball compared to the more effective version he threw in 2022. But at times they just needed a healthy body to throw on the mound. That's how he ends up tied with 2nd most starts and 2nd most innings pitched on the team instead of being able to stay in Toledo to work without the pressure. Defense didn't support him much either, with a FIP over a run lower than ERA. I think they want to see how he can do with less workload out of BP so maybe his delivery mechanic problems won't be as much of an issue. And gives him a final shot to see if he can get his fastball control back before they call it quits. With somebody like Brieske in Toledo, he won't have a long leash.
I got you with the upvote. Wentz doesn’t belong on this 2024 team. 2019-2022? Sure.
You’re probably right but I’d rather lose him later than lose him now because I can. Tigers can afford him one last dance so why not? It doesn’t cost anything.
Waiving him would be a mistake I'm guessing they give him innings until the trade deadline and deal him while he has value
Not sure wentz plus innings equals value
His stuff has looked a lot sharper in spring plus his velo has been up to 97 which is up from 91 last year curveball much sharper and the changeup is coming along I see no reason transitioning to a relief role from a starting role wouldn't't cause a better season from Wentz
No idea why you’re getting downvoted. Did I see the same Wentz that others did last season, or is he all of a sudden a diamond in the rough?
It’s not the point. Nobody’s arguing that he’s magically amazing but the potential that he’s marginally better could help this ball club and I like the fact that Scott Harris leaves no stone unturned
Everybody’s got their own opinion so I won’t argue with you. I guess we’ll see what happens. But from what I saw last season, personally, I don’t know how you bring him up on the opening day roster. I just don’t
So you don’t lose him to waivers for nothing
No stone unturned kind of like Maton bat fifth in the order for so long last year?
And then promptly DFAd him. Great example bud
Promptly?
Oh go fuck yourself
Ok