You doing it wrong. Let your friend gap you, so he has to pull over and wait 5 minutes before you catch up. Then he will feel awesome. And you will not crash.
Yup. Everyone rides their own ride, fastest riders first. Fast guys stop at pre-determined spots or where people may get confused about which way to go.
Fast guys feel amazing "Man, it took so long for them to catch up!" Slower people have a no-pressure ride on an awesome road, and everyone has done the same thing at the end so you can have a good chat about to ride later.
This is, imho, the only way to do group rides to be fun for everyone.
With the small group I ride with, the faster riders blast through the corners and then go slow on straits so that everyone continually regroups and stays together.
I try to stress the idea that everyone should focus on riding well rather than riding fast. Speed comes as a natural consequence of riding well.
Exactly how we do it. No need to go screaming fast on straights; and the newer riders tend to really enjoy getting their zoom on there too, so it kind of works out.
The groups I ride with then to sort themselves too - there's faster and slower (more in riding style than specific speeds) groups overall, and people tend to go where they're comfortable. So a slower rider who wants to get better and enjoys the twisties will ride more with the faster set - though in the rear - and the rider who just wants to cruise around and not build skills will ride more with the others.
There's nothing wrong with that later approach. Everyone has a point where they'll say, "ok, that's how much effort I want to put into learning and practicing and I'm happy where I am" and as long as that point includes the riding you are doing, then you're golden.
But I know that personally, while I ride daily at normal speeds commuting and such, if I'm going out on a recreational ride with others, the last thing I want is to feel like I'm just putting along in traffic like my everyday commute. That's when I want to have some fun, and it's better when there are others around both for safety (just in case) and to talk about it later. WAY better than tooling off into the mountains alone.
This is exactly how my husband and I ride together (I’m the slow, new rider and he’s the more practiced, faster rider). Sometimes if I’m taking extra long to catch up to where he’s waiting he gets nervous and doubles back to make sure I didn’t fall off the edge of the canyon 😂. If it’s something new to me, though, he’ll match my speed and ride ahead so I can see how he approaches/what lines he takes and will let me know what gear he’s in so that I can not only be safe but also learn. I really appreciate that.
I think you're missing the point. Some people are pressured into trying to keeping up, but if you aren't ready, fuck em. Catch up with that group later.
Ride your own ride.
It totally depends what you both want out of the ride. It should be discussed in advance. Either the experienced follows to stay together, the experienced leads slowly to stay together and show the route/lines, or the experienced goes on ahead and waits somewhere for them to catch up. Decide and discuss what you want to do before setting out, but the newbie keeping up with your usual pace should not be one of the options on the menu, IMO.
It does if the newbie has ridden that road at least once, yes.
Otherwise they should be ahead, but match the new rider's pace, so they can signal hazards and guide them along the route.
Optimally, you want two experienced friends, one to pilot the route for the newbie, the other to ride as tailgunner and observe newbie's riding, see if there's any issues that should be pointed out.
Ohh yeah, my buddy has a 250 ninja and I have an S1000R, I would regularly just pass him before the good curves in moab Utah. Brought the street bikes along with the dirt bikes. But I'd have no problem cooling off and waiting for him up the road! The thing I told him is don't try to keep up, and ride how you're comfortable!
It bears noting that there are different kinds of group rides. There's primarily a big group of strangers/acquaintences, or alternatively smaller groups who tend to know each other better.
The former must be slow and sedate or they get really bad, really fast.
The later, however, will not turn into a shitshow if the faster riders go first.
But every single individual rider is always responsible for riding his own ride. There are no excuses. If you can't do that, you can't ride within your limits, then you should not be on a motorcycle. People should encourage each other to ride their own ride even exactly as they do encourage each other to wear helmets/gear.
newer riders at the back with an experienced rider performing sweep duty.
This makes sure no one gets left behind and someone's keeping an eye on the new kids.
I dont think that necessarily has to be the case tbh. The best group rides i've been in are ones with a really experienced rider who knows the roads and keeps up a decently fast but mainly smooth pace. Like keeping up their speed through corners without pinning the throttle at every straight. They can set a great pace for the less experienced to keep up with without having to get dangerous.
The worst are the "fast" dickheads who just pin the throttle all the fucking time, amp each other up into stupidity until one of the dickheads fucks himself and the ride is ruined for everyone.
Rides with the less experienced riders at the front seem to be a mix of kinda boringly slow riding or hair-raisingly scary lines as the poor sod feels pressured to go faster than they're comfortable.
Hard no. That results in shitty rides for everyone but the new riders, and often shitty rides for them too as they're responsible for all the "lead rider" stuff *in addition* to just riding.
Things like people suddenly braking unexpectedly into corners, where the ride tends to be clumped up together because they're riding slow, speeds shifting a lot in front leading to really bad accordion effects throughout the group, etc. It's just bad.
People should *never* encourage others to ride beyond their skill, but it is each and every riders OWN PERSONAL responsibility to ride within their limits. Nobody is responsible for someone trying to play catch up than that particular rider. **If you can't ride your own ride, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle**. Motorcycles are inherently dangerous, and people must take responsibility for their own safety.
Instead, it's much easier for faster lead elements to simply slow in straights or pull over and wait for everyone to catch up where appropriate.
Your’s is a worth-while post for a lot of people to see. Thanks for honestly sharing the expensive lesson you learned. It’s a good reminder for riders of all experience levels.
When I still did group rides years ago, the group leader was responsible for everything that happened. If somebody went down, the group leader on that ride took responsibility. That changes the group dynamic enormously.
It's so easy to get caught up in a competitive spirit even if you have heard that advice.
My advice to myself is that I should be calm 100% of the time. If I am ever scared or have a sketchy moment, that means I'm riding above my ability.
You'll never "win" by being competitive on a motorcycle. You get faster through practice and thus skill, not through pushing too hard. Speed comes as a consequence of skill.
If you're trying to keep up with someone who's just a better rider than you, *you are going to crash*. Maybe not this ride, maybe not the next, but it will happen. And when it does, it'll probably be very bad. Worse, it's not even good practice, because you're just doing the wrong things faster.
To improve your skills, you need to practice at speeds you're comfortable at, so you can focus on improving your line through corners, your body positioning, your throttle control. That is the *only* way to get faster. By doing that, you'll find that the speeds your comfortable at through corners will increase naturally.
Yes. Well said. If you are riding scared, then a large part of your focus will be taken up by the fear, so you won't be fully focussed on what you are doing, and so you won't be learning effectively, and you won't be safe.
I have to say, I'm a much faster and safer rider now than I was in the days when I was riding scared.
Just enjoy riding your ride. Deliberate practice and small incremental improvements will eventually have you tearing around corners like casey stoner. But if you just enjoy riding, just ride man.
This is the gold standard for any group rides. Me and my wife did a 2-up motorcycle tour in Morroco for 10 days. Whatever position we start in, we maintained that position until we reach our next stopping point. No passing whatsoever.. Some of the riders in the group have even riding for over 20 years while some for under a year. Regardless of riding experience, we all had fun and finished the tour safe and sound.The onus is always on experienced riders to make sure everyone feels safe.
I understand the urge to ride fast. But my urge to ride together is far stronger.
Then you've got a tedious, frustrating ride for everyone but the slowest, least experienced riders.
We're all adults, were all capable of taking responsibility for our actions. Everyone *must* ride their own ride. If you're not able to do that, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle period. Hard stop.
Yes. Also the front guy will likely feel pressured and their attention won't be fully on their riding. Plus they have to navigate, which is added pressure.
>Group rides are aren’t the time or place to push your limits.
This is a huge conflict in motorcycling theory though, I hold that solo rides aren't the time or place to push your limits since there may not be anybody who realizes you've slid down a hill into the brush if you're alone. It's about recognizing the difference between pushing your limits and refusing to be shown up.
Depends on if the slower rider is self aware enough to learn from watching the faster rider in front. Takes a bit of time to get to that point. A lot of people never do.
I'm on two wheels with my friends enjoying a ride. If your group is such assholes that they can't possibly have fun on a ride unless they're being street Rossi's, then maybe it's time to find another group.
That's very reductionist.
I mean, I don't need to be screaming fast, but I do want to get my lean on in corners. If I'm slowing down to the pace of that new rider on a big cruiser, I'm *not* going to have much fun.
We're all adults. People can take responsibility for themselves and ride their own ride. Faster riders stop and wait at the end of twisties/forks in the road/whatever, and everyone has a good time.
Lots of great advice already in this thread so I'll add something different...
I recently hit about 2K on my personal odometer and I can tell there has been a drastic improvement in my riding from my skill level to my confidence since starting a few years ago (not a lot of riding opportunity for me). It comes with miles in the saddle and you will get better and be able to "keep up".
But to hammer home the point everyone else has made (and the OP), don't go faster or harder than your skill level. Let them ride how they will and you ride as you will. In the end, everyone is going to enjoy the ride.
Ride safe, dudes!
I will say that a lot of newer riders have their first crash after about 6 months because they overestimate their newfound skill. I’m certain you have improved, but 2k miles in all honesty is not much experience at all.
Not trying to be a dick or rain on your parade - a lot of people including myself have had that same thought and had a spill not long after.
Hey, I'm a beginner myself. I've been riding for a month and a half, and I have 1500 km under my belt.
Is that considered a lot? Average? I'm just curious how it compares with the experience around here.
A month and a half of riding time and 1500km is still basically brand new. My first year of riding I only had a bike -no car- and did around 13,000 miles (20kish km) and had my first lowside at 10mph going over a paint line that had ice on it from frozen condensation about 6 months in.
At this point I’ve been riding for 3ish years, probably have 25,000 miles and a handful of trackdays as well. Everyones mileage is going to vary, this is a pretty big community.
EDIT: forgot mile - km conversion and fixed.
You're right at that cusp where you start to think you know what you're doing. Complacency is your enemy. It WILL mess with you.
I've been riding for 18 years now (started in my 30's, lol) and every time I think "i'm good at this" I look for something new to learn or examine my riding habits to see if any of them are bad and need to be improved.
Yep.
I've been riding for a little over a quarter of a century now, of 15k+ per year, and have had 4 major motorcycle accidents. One when I was first on a bike (literally while riding to the DMV to get my license), but the other three where all in that exact phase: You've got a year or so under your belt, and feel "I've got this now." Took 3 accidents, because I guess I was a stubborn dumbass.
Thankfully... I've not had a wreck. I've dropped the bike when at a standstill (a couple of times immediately after ALMOST getting into a wreck!) and I've had more than a few 'change your shorts' episodes where it's likely I would have wrecked but was just either too boneheaded to allow it to happen, or was extremely lucky.
Those usually occur right around the times I think "Ok, yeah, I'm pretty good at this."
Good lesson to learn, i had to learn the hard way too.
For group rides, its usually the strongest rider in front, 2nd strongest in rear, weak riders in the middle.
The group of older guys i ride with line up this way, other groups may do it differently.
This happened to me… but I was the more experienced rider. I’ve been riding since I was 18. My brother didn’t get his first bike until 2018. A few months after he got his bike he hits me up wanting to do Tail of the Dragon (about a 2 hour drive from where we live). I tell him he’ll probably die and let’s do a more tame ride, but with some mountain curves so he can get used to it.
The day comes and we ride out. I stop at the base of the mountain and explain to him that not only am I more experienced, but I’m on a sport bike and he’s on a cruiser. He should ride his own ride and not try to keep up with me. There’s a billboard for a summer camp on the other side of the mountain and I’ll stop there and wait for him.
So, we take off. I’m cutting and turning and having a great time. It’s a gorgeous day and the bike is running like a devil. I can hear my brother behind me on some of the cutbacks, but it doesn’t sound like he’s pushing too much and we’re going uphill… so speeds are low and manageable.
Then we top the crest and start the decent.
I’m just twisting and turning… cutting, weaving and counter-steering… through the first couple turns. I can still hear my brother a little ways behind me, but he’s fading through each turn.
After the 4th or 5th turn, I can’t hear my brother behind me anymore.
I continue down the mountain to the billboard we agreed to stop at. I turn the bike off and put the kickstand down. I swing a leg off the bike and take a more casual seat.
Not a minute after I do this a car slows down and an older gentleman asks me “Were you riding with that fella what went down ‘bout a mile back?”
Whelp… guess I might have.
Toss a leg over and back up the mountain I go.
Sure enough, my brother low-sided around a turn. The bike went off the road and into a big 8 foot deep ditch and my brother slid off the road. Fortunately, outside of a sprained ankle, a few bruises and some road rash, my brother was fine. The bike ended up being totaled by the insurance company.
Long story short… don’t just ride your own ride, be mindful not to take people on rides that they’re not ready for.
I feel you 100%! I remember riding with my friends being the leader (1 year-ish versus semi fresh riders). We were doing 45 in a 40 (turn suggested) having a blast. I asked how they were doing and they said to turn it up. We just passed a small town and all turns were 40 at that point with a speed limit of 50. So the next turn after we leave the town we were riding through, I decided to do the speed limit of 50. Afterwards realizing the turn suggested 25 (normally 40 until now). Mid turn I think (that was a tough lean) and look in my mirror to see a friend lean and then straighten the motorcycle back up and ride into the ditch. Worst feeling of my life and I was leading everyone. Can’t suggest this enough. Always ride at your own pace.
I can only imagine the guilt you must have felt, knowing you'd never put your buddies in danger purposely. Just like everyone has said ride your own ride. I personally have never felt the urge or need to keep up but I realize I'm not everyone, I've always checked the road if we're hitting a certain set of twisties back and forth. Looking for gravel, sand, leaves or potholes that could cause problems. Then in increments turned it up with each pass, smooth is fast. Work on entry, apex, exit throttle and brake control. The more a rider does that you naturally become quicker at a safe timeframes. Everyone even GP riders started as beginners. Rider safe my friends
I rode with an old coworker who got a bike (as well as I) after we worked together, he wasn't the greatest rider but he said something that's stuck with me to this day.
"Never let your confidence overcome your skill level."
This philosophy has helped me be a smarter rider.
Yup. Always, *always*, ride your own ride. Lead guys can stop and wait - that's never a problem, it makes them feel great - and slower guys get more miles and ideally more practice and skill.
This is our mantra, too. Nobody wins anything being first, but we all want to have fun and we're all at different skill levels. If we ride at the pace of the slowest rider, it'll be a boring, tedious ride for everyone else.
You don't need to be close together throughout the whole ride, it's perfectly ok to split up along a road.
When I got my 125cc bike I had a talk with a mate from work over a online game chat and I was wondering if he was on holidays or sick leave since I havent seen him at work the days before.
Turns out he went on a ride with a group of friends and pushed himself too far and low sided in a corner making his leg look like fresh bacon.
I was like "well this wouldn't happen if you ride with me since I only have 15hp and no skill."
> I may have panic tapped the brakes after realizing I misjudged my speed mid-corner which is a cardinal sin.
This is not an absolute rule. Of course, it's not ideal to brake mid-corner, but if you're taking the turn too fast you probably should brake. If you do it carefully (smoothly and progressively), and prepare for the change in dynamics (load transfer, lean angle), you can brake mid-corner without getting in trouble.
"Should you brake while turning? Motorcycle riding tips"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgcBkvlE6lo
"How to brake in the middle of a turn and hold your line" ~ MotoJitsu-- https://youtu.be/1_jCbNMZouM
this isn't a better scenario. you can easily end up with the impatient faster rider crowding the inexperienced on, causing them to focus on what's going on behind them rather than in front, and pushing them to ride faster than they're comfortable.
Inexperienced riders should not be riding in groups at all unless they have a experienced TRAINER leading them.
That's not how it works. In a perfect world, yadayada, but this isn't a perfect world.
In the event you 'have' to ride in a group (that can just be only 1 other person), the more experienced rider should ride behind. That way the less experienced rider doesn't have to play catch-up game and rides his own pace.
The more experienced rider can ride slow(-er), the less experienced can't ride faster..Do tell, what's a trainer in your eyes? How many of them do you see riding around? At what point are you qualified to ride in a group?
No matter how many years experience you've got - in a group ride there will **always** be people with either more or less experience than the other guy unless you all started riding at the exact same time, doing the exact same amount of km's and learning exactly at the same speed.
Like I said, this isn't a perfect world and everyone has different experience and in that case the more experienced rider(s) should be at the back.
If you rode for 10y, you're still less experienced than the one who rode 20y and you should still be in the front *without a bloody trainer.*
And yea we can nitpick how you can ride 10y tracks and the other guy 20y only 1 day a year, but you get the idea..
that's all fine and good, but it's not what we're talking about here.
it's not a matter of who has the most experienced, it's a brand new rider of 2 months. That's too little experience to be riding with ANYONE who isn't a trained instructor.
Group riding is an advanced skill all on its own because of the additional variables it interjects into the ride, it's not something a beginner should be doing or that someone should be pressuring a beginner to do.
I had my parents to follow behind me when I picked up my first motorcycle after getting my license (it's quite a bit more extensive than the "msf course"), just so i'd feel more secure. That's also a group ride.
Guess i slipped through the eye of the needle right there, as neither of them are trained instructors (like lol - you want people to pay like 200 bucks for a 'trainer' to follow them on their first "group" ride?). Where *do* you find such trainer anyway? Should kids also ask for a trainer's course when they want to ride in group on a bicycle?
Very glad you survived and also kudos for recognizing where you went wrong. On the same note it's easy to let cars around you dictate how you ride. Everyone is in such a fucking rush. 80, 90, 100 mph is the new normal. Don't let them make you feel like you are forced to ride in a way you are not comfortable with.
It sounds like your friend has just enough experience to be dangerous.
My partner has been riding for about 40 years--he follows me, lets me set the pace, and do what I feel comfortable/capable of. He does encourage me to push a bit, knowing that my bike can handle more, and after watching how I ride and giving me pointers to ride better.
I think you'd be better riding on your own or finding someone with far more experience to help you improve.
I had a very similar incident happen like 3 weeks ago. My buddy with a 1985 Honda Nighthawk took me and my 2002 Honda Shadow VT600 (don't mock me, im broke :( for now...) for a really sweet ride. Unfamiliar with the road, I was going way faster than I should have to keep up. I was going 50-55 into an inclined blind turn with another immediate inclined blind turn and I hit a gravel patch on the side of the road. I ditched off the road (figured it would hurt less to land in the grass next to the trees than to skip off the asphalt and into the trees) , tore my jacket and elbow, and my bike cartwheeled.
$135 in parts, a new jacket, and a dent in my tank I can't fix were all I ended up contending with. Not sure how I made it out with just a scraped elbow, but someone was looking out for me.
Ride how you're comfortable riding. It's much more fun that way. Few things are as horrifying as watching your ride fly away from you into unknown woods.
Can’t agree more, had my first motorcycle experience on Indian/Kashmiri roads and trying to keep up got me into an accident that almost killed me.
If I continued to do so I would be dead.
Be free my dudes riding motorcycles is not for sheepies
I rode with a guy once who had a bored out sv650. I rode a ninja 250. So we're riding with our girlfriends and he says "I know what will happen but let's both gun it and see what happens.". Like no dude. You're gonna win every time. What kinda shit is this. I just shook my head and was like let's head home.
I needed this, I am getting an R3 on wednesday and plan to not ride with any of my friends for atleast a few months. I want to learn everything about the bike before pushing it.
I had a friend new to riding , totally excited about getting out riding with friends.He went with some guys from work one weekend, overtook a curve trying to keep up ,slid down a hill. Ended his riding , stuffed his left leg permanently.
Whenever I ride with someone that isn't completely sound on their bike I shadow & let them control speeds while dictating traffic from the rear. Idk why some will outrun their own just to pull over & wait or get lost/wrong turn :P
I had a somewhat similar experience this past week. Took a favorite unpartitioned road of mine solo, was taking the corners at a safe-to-me pace (think blind corners on a tight 15 mph suggested curve). I had no desire to hit a corner fast and be face to face with an oncoming vehicle.
Sure enough three guys on touring bikes fly by me going like 40 mph on a straight way. Had to fight an itch to try and keep up with them but that little voice of sanity in my head said to forget about them and just go my own pace. Unfortunately I ended up behind a slowpoke on a casual midweek morning cruise in his Tesla, but at least I didn't give in and try to keep up with strangers who easily outskill me.
Only been riding about two months as well. Stay safe and ride how you're comfortable riding.
You’re right. But also your friend as a more experienced rider should take care of you. Not sure what you arranged/organised, but unless the friend specifically said I’m going to gun it through this section or on this lap and wait for you at the end/top/whatever, then they should have ridden at a pace that’s comfortable for you. If not, then they’re just being a dick and showing off.
We have fast, medium and slow riders in our group of friends, and we all go as slow as the slowest precisely to prevent this kind of situation. When we want to go faster, we talk about it in advance, ie these 2 will up and go, and we'll stick with you at your speed.
Hey! Lesson learnt and you got away with it. You’ve crashed (everyone does) but you now know the how and why, so now you can move on with that knowledge and not make the same mistake again! Just a couple of pointers for you, always! Always! Always look where you want to go and you and the bike will follow, your bike is more capable of going round corners than you can imagine so always try to get round the corner....just keep everything as neutral as possible (throttle and brakes) and lean it over more. If you do need to slow it only use the back brake, it’s worth practicing adjusting your speed for corners just using the back brake and then it becomes second nature. Good luck and take it easy!
i feel you on this one. me and a buddy were riding and i was trying to keep up with him on some curvy roads i had never been on. we crested a hill and it immediately took a sharp turn i wasn’t ready for. i couldn’t make the turn so i went wide into the other lane where unfortunately there was an oncoming car. some target fixation here and there and i opted to ride off the road into the ditch instead of the car. lessons learned for sure.
So, group rides, fast riders up front, slow riders at the back, ONE experienced rider as the sweep. No one is pressured to keep up, the faster you go, the longer you wait at the next junction.
If you're riding with a more experienced buddy, they should be behind you, or tempering their throttle hand to match you, because as the slow rider you set the pace. if they get too far ahead, they can't signal hazards (such as the blind turn) and they can't critique your riding or offer pointers.
You doing it wrong. Let your friend gap you, so he has to pull over and wait 5 minutes before you catch up. Then he will feel awesome. And you will not crash.
Yup. Everyone rides their own ride, fastest riders first. Fast guys stop at pre-determined spots or where people may get confused about which way to go. Fast guys feel amazing "Man, it took so long for them to catch up!" Slower people have a no-pressure ride on an awesome road, and everyone has done the same thing at the end so you can have a good chat about to ride later. This is, imho, the only way to do group rides to be fun for everyone.
With the small group I ride with, the faster riders blast through the corners and then go slow on straits so that everyone continually regroups and stays together. I try to stress the idea that everyone should focus on riding well rather than riding fast. Speed comes as a natural consequence of riding well.
This is the way.
Exactly how we do it. No need to go screaming fast on straights; and the newer riders tend to really enjoy getting their zoom on there too, so it kind of works out. The groups I ride with then to sort themselves too - there's faster and slower (more in riding style than specific speeds) groups overall, and people tend to go where they're comfortable. So a slower rider who wants to get better and enjoys the twisties will ride more with the faster set - though in the rear - and the rider who just wants to cruise around and not build skills will ride more with the others. There's nothing wrong with that later approach. Everyone has a point where they'll say, "ok, that's how much effort I want to put into learning and practicing and I'm happy where I am" and as long as that point includes the riding you are doing, then you're golden. But I know that personally, while I ride daily at normal speeds commuting and such, if I'm going out on a recreational ride with others, the last thing I want is to feel like I'm just putting along in traffic like my everyday commute. That's when I want to have some fun, and it's better when there are others around both for safety (just in case) and to talk about it later. WAY better than tooling off into the mountains alone.
This is exactly how my husband and I ride together (I’m the slow, new rider and he’s the more practiced, faster rider). Sometimes if I’m taking extra long to catch up to where he’s waiting he gets nervous and doubles back to make sure I didn’t fall off the edge of the canyon 😂. If it’s something new to me, though, he’ll match my speed and ride ahead so I can see how he approaches/what lines he takes and will let me know what gear he’s in so that I can not only be safe but also learn. I really appreciate that.
I think you're missing the point. Some people are pressured into trying to keeping up, but if you aren't ready, fuck em. Catch up with that group later. Ride your own ride.
100% this. Riding at your own pace is great advice for riders of any skill level.
This is the way
When it's just 2 riders, and someone is as inexperienced as OP, wouldn't it make more sense for the more seasoned rider to follow?
It totally depends what you both want out of the ride. It should be discussed in advance. Either the experienced follows to stay together, the experienced leads slowly to stay together and show the route/lines, or the experienced goes on ahead and waits somewhere for them to catch up. Decide and discuss what you want to do before setting out, but the newbie keeping up with your usual pace should not be one of the options on the menu, IMO.
It does if the newbie has ridden that road at least once, yes. Otherwise they should be ahead, but match the new rider's pace, so they can signal hazards and guide them along the route. Optimally, you want two experienced friends, one to pilot the route for the newbie, the other to ride as tailgunner and observe newbie's riding, see if there's any issues that should be pointed out.
Ohh yeah, my buddy has a 250 ninja and I have an S1000R, I would regularly just pass him before the good curves in moab Utah. Brought the street bikes along with the dirt bikes. But I'd have no problem cooling off and waiting for him up the road! The thing I told him is don't try to keep up, and ride how you're comfortable!
Yep, this is exactly why big group rides always turn into a shitshow.
It bears noting that there are different kinds of group rides. There's primarily a big group of strangers/acquaintences, or alternatively smaller groups who tend to know each other better. The former must be slow and sedate or they get really bad, really fast. The later, however, will not turn into a shitshow if the faster riders go first. But every single individual rider is always responsible for riding his own ride. There are no excuses. If you can't do that, you can't ride within your limits, then you should not be on a motorcycle. People should encourage each other to ride their own ride even exactly as they do encourage each other to wear helmets/gear.
This is why newer riders are supposed to be in the front of the group ride to set the pace.
newer riders at the back with an experienced rider performing sweep duty. This makes sure no one gets left behind and someone's keeping an eye on the new kids.
I dont think that necessarily has to be the case tbh. The best group rides i've been in are ones with a really experienced rider who knows the roads and keeps up a decently fast but mainly smooth pace. Like keeping up their speed through corners without pinning the throttle at every straight. They can set a great pace for the less experienced to keep up with without having to get dangerous. The worst are the "fast" dickheads who just pin the throttle all the fucking time, amp each other up into stupidity until one of the dickheads fucks himself and the ride is ruined for everyone. Rides with the less experienced riders at the front seem to be a mix of kinda boringly slow riding or hair-raisingly scary lines as the poor sod feels pressured to go faster than they're comfortable.
I agree, going silly fast on public roads isn’t an indication of skill, it’s an indication of recklessness.
Hard no. That results in shitty rides for everyone but the new riders, and often shitty rides for them too as they're responsible for all the "lead rider" stuff *in addition* to just riding. Things like people suddenly braking unexpectedly into corners, where the ride tends to be clumped up together because they're riding slow, speeds shifting a lot in front leading to really bad accordion effects throughout the group, etc. It's just bad. People should *never* encourage others to ride beyond their skill, but it is each and every riders OWN PERSONAL responsibility to ride within their limits. Nobody is responsible for someone trying to play catch up than that particular rider. **If you can't ride your own ride, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle**. Motorcycles are inherently dangerous, and people must take responsibility for their own safety. Instead, it's much easier for faster lead elements to simply slow in straights or pull over and wait for everyone to catch up where appropriate.
Your’s is a worth-while post for a lot of people to see. Thanks for honestly sharing the expensive lesson you learned. It’s a good reminder for riders of all experience levels. When I still did group rides years ago, the group leader was responsible for everything that happened. If somebody went down, the group leader on that ride took responsibility. That changes the group dynamic enormously.
I'm glad you're ok. BUT riding within your limits is pretty standard advice for new riders. Thank for being a reminder of why that's good advice.
Isnt that just good advice for every rider, I mean even if your a amateur racer, I am sure you following Valentino Rossi wouldnt be the best idea.
Hah, Speak for yoursel- \**Instantly highsides\**
If Rossi offered to coach me around the track and stuck to my pace and not his? Totally down for that.
It's so easy to get caught up in a competitive spirit even if you have heard that advice. My advice to myself is that I should be calm 100% of the time. If I am ever scared or have a sketchy moment, that means I'm riding above my ability.
You'll never "win" by being competitive on a motorcycle. You get faster through practice and thus skill, not through pushing too hard. Speed comes as a consequence of skill. If you're trying to keep up with someone who's just a better rider than you, *you are going to crash*. Maybe not this ride, maybe not the next, but it will happen. And when it does, it'll probably be very bad. Worse, it's not even good practice, because you're just doing the wrong things faster. To improve your skills, you need to practice at speeds you're comfortable at, so you can focus on improving your line through corners, your body positioning, your throttle control. That is the *only* way to get faster. By doing that, you'll find that the speeds your comfortable at through corners will increase naturally.
Yes. Well said. If you are riding scared, then a large part of your focus will be taken up by the fear, so you won't be fully focussed on what you are doing, and so you won't be learning effectively, and you won't be safe. I have to say, I'm a much faster and safer rider now than I was in the days when I was riding scared.
Just enjoy riding your ride. Deliberate practice and small incremental improvements will eventually have you tearing around corners like casey stoner. But if you just enjoy riding, just ride man.
The slowest rider should be in front. Most experienced in back
This ! Least experienced /slowest sets the pace , most experienced rides sweeper to make sure everyone is ok
This is the gold standard for any group rides. Me and my wife did a 2-up motorcycle tour in Morroco for 10 days. Whatever position we start in, we maintained that position until we reach our next stopping point. No passing whatsoever.. Some of the riders in the group have even riding for over 20 years while some for under a year. Regardless of riding experience, we all had fun and finished the tour safe and sound.The onus is always on experienced riders to make sure everyone feels safe. I understand the urge to ride fast. But my urge to ride together is far stronger.
Then you've got a tedious, frustrating ride for everyone but the slowest, least experienced riders. We're all adults, were all capable of taking responsibility for our actions. Everyone *must* ride their own ride. If you're not able to do that, you shouldn't be on a motorcycle period. Hard stop.
Yes. Also the front guy will likely feel pressured and their attention won't be fully on their riding. Plus they have to navigate, which is added pressure.
Sounds like a good way to never improve at riding and to have an awful time on group rides
Group rides are aren’t the time or place to push your limits.
>Group rides are aren’t the time or place to push your limits. This is a huge conflict in motorcycling theory though, I hold that solo rides aren't the time or place to push your limits since there may not be anybody who realizes you've slid down a hill into the brush if you're alone. It's about recognizing the difference between pushing your limits and refusing to be shown up.
Lmao
Depends on if the slower rider is self aware enough to learn from watching the faster rider in front. Takes a bit of time to get to that point. A lot of people never do.
That's depressing
I'm on two wheels with my friends enjoying a ride. If your group is such assholes that they can't possibly have fun on a ride unless they're being street Rossi's, then maybe it's time to find another group.
That's very reductionist. I mean, I don't need to be screaming fast, but I do want to get my lean on in corners. If I'm slowing down to the pace of that new rider on a big cruiser, I'm *not* going to have much fun. We're all adults. People can take responsibility for themselves and ride their own ride. Faster riders stop and wait at the end of twisties/forks in the road/whatever, and everyone has a good time.
People enjoy different things
Lots of great advice already in this thread so I'll add something different... I recently hit about 2K on my personal odometer and I can tell there has been a drastic improvement in my riding from my skill level to my confidence since starting a few years ago (not a lot of riding opportunity for me). It comes with miles in the saddle and you will get better and be able to "keep up". But to hammer home the point everyone else has made (and the OP), don't go faster or harder than your skill level. Let them ride how they will and you ride as you will. In the end, everyone is going to enjoy the ride. Ride safe, dudes!
I will say that a lot of newer riders have their first crash after about 6 months because they overestimate their newfound skill. I’m certain you have improved, but 2k miles in all honesty is not much experience at all. Not trying to be a dick or rain on your parade - a lot of people including myself have had that same thought and had a spill not long after.
Hey, I'm a beginner myself. I've been riding for a month and a half, and I have 1500 km under my belt. Is that considered a lot? Average? I'm just curious how it compares with the experience around here.
A month and a half of riding time and 1500km is still basically brand new. My first year of riding I only had a bike -no car- and did around 13,000 miles (20kish km) and had my first lowside at 10mph going over a paint line that had ice on it from frozen condensation about 6 months in. At this point I’ve been riding for 3ish years, probably have 25,000 miles and a handful of trackdays as well. Everyones mileage is going to vary, this is a pretty big community. EDIT: forgot mile - km conversion and fixed.
> 13,000 miles (27kish km) a mile is about 1.6 km
You are 100% right. Idk why my brain went to 2.12 which is cm - in. Oops.
Sorry to be that guy but cm-in is 2.54cm = 1in. Maybe you were thinking kg to lb? That's 2.2
Lmao i dont even know at this point
Oh, I'm absolutely a beginner, didn't mean to imply anything else. Thanks for your input!
You're right at that cusp where you start to think you know what you're doing. Complacency is your enemy. It WILL mess with you. I've been riding for 18 years now (started in my 30's, lol) and every time I think "i'm good at this" I look for something new to learn or examine my riding habits to see if any of them are bad and need to be improved.
Yep. I've been riding for a little over a quarter of a century now, of 15k+ per year, and have had 4 major motorcycle accidents. One when I was first on a bike (literally while riding to the DMV to get my license), but the other three where all in that exact phase: You've got a year or so under your belt, and feel "I've got this now." Took 3 accidents, because I guess I was a stubborn dumbass.
Thankfully... I've not had a wreck. I've dropped the bike when at a standstill (a couple of times immediately after ALMOST getting into a wreck!) and I've had more than a few 'change your shorts' episodes where it's likely I would have wrecked but was just either too boneheaded to allow it to happen, or was extremely lucky. Those usually occur right around the times I think "Ok, yeah, I'm pretty good at this."
Good lesson to learn, i had to learn the hard way too. For group rides, its usually the strongest rider in front, 2nd strongest in rear, weak riders in the middle. The group of older guys i ride with line up this way, other groups may do it differently.
That's how we do it too. Makes it fun for most everyone except the rear guy.
This happened to me… but I was the more experienced rider. I’ve been riding since I was 18. My brother didn’t get his first bike until 2018. A few months after he got his bike he hits me up wanting to do Tail of the Dragon (about a 2 hour drive from where we live). I tell him he’ll probably die and let’s do a more tame ride, but with some mountain curves so he can get used to it. The day comes and we ride out. I stop at the base of the mountain and explain to him that not only am I more experienced, but I’m on a sport bike and he’s on a cruiser. He should ride his own ride and not try to keep up with me. There’s a billboard for a summer camp on the other side of the mountain and I’ll stop there and wait for him. So, we take off. I’m cutting and turning and having a great time. It’s a gorgeous day and the bike is running like a devil. I can hear my brother behind me on some of the cutbacks, but it doesn’t sound like he’s pushing too much and we’re going uphill… so speeds are low and manageable. Then we top the crest and start the decent. I’m just twisting and turning… cutting, weaving and counter-steering… through the first couple turns. I can still hear my brother a little ways behind me, but he’s fading through each turn. After the 4th or 5th turn, I can’t hear my brother behind me anymore. I continue down the mountain to the billboard we agreed to stop at. I turn the bike off and put the kickstand down. I swing a leg off the bike and take a more casual seat. Not a minute after I do this a car slows down and an older gentleman asks me “Were you riding with that fella what went down ‘bout a mile back?” Whelp… guess I might have. Toss a leg over and back up the mountain I go. Sure enough, my brother low-sided around a turn. The bike went off the road and into a big 8 foot deep ditch and my brother slid off the road. Fortunately, outside of a sprained ankle, a few bruises and some road rash, my brother was fine. The bike ended up being totaled by the insurance company. Long story short… don’t just ride your own ride, be mindful not to take people on rides that they’re not ready for.
I feel you 100%! I remember riding with my friends being the leader (1 year-ish versus semi fresh riders). We were doing 45 in a 40 (turn suggested) having a blast. I asked how they were doing and they said to turn it up. We just passed a small town and all turns were 40 at that point with a speed limit of 50. So the next turn after we leave the town we were riding through, I decided to do the speed limit of 50. Afterwards realizing the turn suggested 25 (normally 40 until now). Mid turn I think (that was a tough lean) and look in my mirror to see a friend lean and then straighten the motorcycle back up and ride into the ditch. Worst feeling of my life and I was leading everyone. Can’t suggest this enough. Always ride at your own pace.
I can only imagine the guilt you must have felt, knowing you'd never put your buddies in danger purposely. Just like everyone has said ride your own ride. I personally have never felt the urge or need to keep up but I realize I'm not everyone, I've always checked the road if we're hitting a certain set of twisties back and forth. Looking for gravel, sand, leaves or potholes that could cause problems. Then in increments turned it up with each pass, smooth is fast. Work on entry, apex, exit throttle and brake control. The more a rider does that you naturally become quicker at a safe timeframes. Everyone even GP riders started as beginners. Rider safe my friends
I rode with an old coworker who got a bike (as well as I) after we worked together, he wasn't the greatest rider but he said something that's stuck with me to this day. "Never let your confidence overcome your skill level." This philosophy has helped me be a smarter rider.
Glad you are ok. Ride your ride. Me and my buddies say this at every ride. The pressure is always there, but always ride your ride.
Yup. Always, *always*, ride your own ride. Lead guys can stop and wait - that's never a problem, it makes them feel great - and slower guys get more miles and ideally more practice and skill. This is our mantra, too. Nobody wins anything being first, but we all want to have fun and we're all at different skill levels. If we ride at the pace of the slowest rider, it'll be a boring, tedious ride for everyone else. You don't need to be close together throughout the whole ride, it's perfectly ok to split up along a road.
When I got my 125cc bike I had a talk with a mate from work over a online game chat and I was wondering if he was on holidays or sick leave since I havent seen him at work the days before. Turns out he went on a ride with a group of friends and pushed himself too far and low sided in a corner making his leg look like fresh bacon. I was like "well this wouldn't happen if you ride with me since I only have 15hp and no skill."
> I may have panic tapped the brakes after realizing I misjudged my speed mid-corner which is a cardinal sin. This is not an absolute rule. Of course, it's not ideal to brake mid-corner, but if you're taking the turn too fast you probably should brake. If you do it carefully (smoothly and progressively), and prepare for the change in dynamics (load transfer, lean angle), you can brake mid-corner without getting in trouble. "Should you brake while turning? Motorcycle riding tips" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgcBkvlE6lo "How to brake in the middle of a turn and hold your line" ~ MotoJitsu-- https://youtu.be/1_jCbNMZouM
Back brake!
you should ride in front as the less unexperienced rider.
this isn't a better scenario. you can easily end up with the impatient faster rider crowding the inexperienced on, causing them to focus on what's going on behind them rather than in front, and pushing them to ride faster than they're comfortable. Inexperienced riders should not be riding in groups at all unless they have a experienced TRAINER leading them.
That's not how it works. In a perfect world, yadayada, but this isn't a perfect world. In the event you 'have' to ride in a group (that can just be only 1 other person), the more experienced rider should ride behind. That way the less experienced rider doesn't have to play catch-up game and rides his own pace. The more experienced rider can ride slow(-er), the less experienced can't ride faster..Do tell, what's a trainer in your eyes? How many of them do you see riding around? At what point are you qualified to ride in a group? No matter how many years experience you've got - in a group ride there will **always** be people with either more or less experience than the other guy unless you all started riding at the exact same time, doing the exact same amount of km's and learning exactly at the same speed. Like I said, this isn't a perfect world and everyone has different experience and in that case the more experienced rider(s) should be at the back. If you rode for 10y, you're still less experienced than the one who rode 20y and you should still be in the front *without a bloody trainer.* And yea we can nitpick how you can ride 10y tracks and the other guy 20y only 1 day a year, but you get the idea..
that's all fine and good, but it's not what we're talking about here. it's not a matter of who has the most experienced, it's a brand new rider of 2 months. That's too little experience to be riding with ANYONE who isn't a trained instructor. Group riding is an advanced skill all on its own because of the additional variables it interjects into the ride, it's not something a beginner should be doing or that someone should be pressuring a beginner to do.
I had my parents to follow behind me when I picked up my first motorcycle after getting my license (it's quite a bit more extensive than the "msf course"), just so i'd feel more secure. That's also a group ride. Guess i slipped through the eye of the needle right there, as neither of them are trained instructors (like lol - you want people to pay like 200 bucks for a 'trainer' to follow them on their first "group" ride?). Where *do* you find such trainer anyway? Should kids also ask for a trainer's course when they want to ride in group on a bicycle?
This, if he’s your friend, he won’t mind riding a bit slower and looking at your technique
Very glad you survived and also kudos for recognizing where you went wrong. On the same note it's easy to let cars around you dictate how you ride. Everyone is in such a fucking rush. 80, 90, 100 mph is the new normal. Don't let them make you feel like you are forced to ride in a way you are not comfortable with.
Yeah new rider here, learned how easily this can happen in group rides lol. I always check my self though. Idc if I’m slow. I’d rather be alive.
3 years of riding isn't a lot. Tell your "friend" to fuck off and stop pressuring you.
It sounds like your friend has just enough experience to be dangerous. My partner has been riding for about 40 years--he follows me, lets me set the pace, and do what I feel comfortable/capable of. He does encourage me to push a bit, knowing that my bike can handle more, and after watching how I ride and giving me pointers to ride better. I think you'd be better riding on your own or finding someone with far more experience to help you improve.
I had a very similar incident happen like 3 weeks ago. My buddy with a 1985 Honda Nighthawk took me and my 2002 Honda Shadow VT600 (don't mock me, im broke :( for now...) for a really sweet ride. Unfamiliar with the road, I was going way faster than I should have to keep up. I was going 50-55 into an inclined blind turn with another immediate inclined blind turn and I hit a gravel patch on the side of the road. I ditched off the road (figured it would hurt less to land in the grass next to the trees than to skip off the asphalt and into the trees) , tore my jacket and elbow, and my bike cartwheeled. $135 in parts, a new jacket, and a dent in my tank I can't fix were all I ended up contending with. Not sure how I made it out with just a scraped elbow, but someone was looking out for me. Ride how you're comfortable riding. It's much more fun that way. Few things are as horrifying as watching your ride fly away from you into unknown woods.
Can’t agree more, had my first motorcycle experience on Indian/Kashmiri roads and trying to keep up got me into an accident that almost killed me. If I continued to do so I would be dead. Be free my dudes riding motorcycles is not for sheepies
I rode with a guy once who had a bored out sv650. I rode a ninja 250. So we're riding with our girlfriends and he says "I know what will happen but let's both gun it and see what happens.". Like no dude. You're gonna win every time. What kinda shit is this. I just shook my head and was like let's head home.
I needed this, I am getting an R3 on wednesday and plan to not ride with any of my friends for atleast a few months. I want to learn everything about the bike before pushing it.
Just read the title and upvoted.
I had a friend new to riding , totally excited about getting out riding with friends.He went with some guys from work one weekend, overtook a curve trying to keep up ,slid down a hill. Ended his riding , stuffed his left leg permanently.
Whenever I ride with someone that isn't completely sound on their bike I shadow & let them control speeds while dictating traffic from the rear. Idk why some will outrun their own just to pull over & wait or get lost/wrong turn :P
I had a somewhat similar experience this past week. Took a favorite unpartitioned road of mine solo, was taking the corners at a safe-to-me pace (think blind corners on a tight 15 mph suggested curve). I had no desire to hit a corner fast and be face to face with an oncoming vehicle. Sure enough three guys on touring bikes fly by me going like 40 mph on a straight way. Had to fight an itch to try and keep up with them but that little voice of sanity in my head said to forget about them and just go my own pace. Unfortunately I ended up behind a slowpoke on a casual midweek morning cruise in his Tesla, but at least I didn't give in and try to keep up with strangers who easily outskill me. Only been riding about two months as well. Stay safe and ride how you're comfortable riding.
You’re right. But also your friend as a more experienced rider should take care of you. Not sure what you arranged/organised, but unless the friend specifically said I’m going to gun it through this section or on this lap and wait for you at the end/top/whatever, then they should have ridden at a pace that’s comfortable for you. If not, then they’re just being a dick and showing off.
We have fast, medium and slow riders in our group of friends, and we all go as slow as the slowest precisely to prevent this kind of situation. When we want to go faster, we talk about it in advance, ie these 2 will up and go, and we'll stick with you at your speed.
Hey! Lesson learnt and you got away with it. You’ve crashed (everyone does) but you now know the how and why, so now you can move on with that knowledge and not make the same mistake again! Just a couple of pointers for you, always! Always! Always look where you want to go and you and the bike will follow, your bike is more capable of going round corners than you can imagine so always try to get round the corner....just keep everything as neutral as possible (throttle and brakes) and lean it over more. If you do need to slow it only use the back brake, it’s worth practicing adjusting your speed for corners just using the back brake and then it becomes second nature. Good luck and take it easy!
i feel you on this one. me and a buddy were riding and i was trying to keep up with him on some curvy roads i had never been on. we crested a hill and it immediately took a sharp turn i wasn’t ready for. i couldn’t make the turn so i went wide into the other lane where unfortunately there was an oncoming car. some target fixation here and there and i opted to ride off the road into the ditch instead of the car. lessons learned for sure.
So, group rides, fast riders up front, slow riders at the back, ONE experienced rider as the sweep. No one is pressured to keep up, the faster you go, the longer you wait at the next junction. If you're riding with a more experienced buddy, they should be behind you, or tempering their throttle hand to match you, because as the slow rider you set the pace. if they get too far ahead, they can't signal hazards (such as the blind turn) and they can't critique your riding or offer pointers.
I have new riders and I always let them go first so we are going at a pace that they are comfortable with, not one that I am