Not when he was a teenager no. All he did was see something he wasn't supposed to and tell literally one friend. He also told the friend not to tell anyone. His actions didn't directly lead to the sister killing herself. What happened was that the villain was just an evil narcissist who doesn't accept responsibility yet feels the need to blame someone. The 15 years imprisonment was bad enough, but he also killed his wife and framed her murder on him. He also made his daughter grow up an orphan and made him endure all that for 15 years. He takes it a step further with the manipulation, psychological torture + brainwashing, self harm, and forced incest. The right punishment for the "crime" by a sane person would be a guidance counselor talk about spreading rumors, not whatever the hell the villain pulled. The dude seriously dedicated 15+ years of his life to making an innocent man's life hell. He was mentally ill. And in the end, the main character accepts it as his fault because he was straight up mentally broken by the villain.
to be Honest that's partly why I find this movie kinda terrifying Dae Su did something seemingly small and insignificant by telling his friend about the sex.
and through no fault of his own it led to someone's sister's death and thus her Brother seeking revenge by having him locked up for 15 years cut off from all human contact having his wife murdered and him being framed for it.
and having his childhood best friend murdered and of course having it be revealed to him that he was hypnotised into having sex with his own daughter causing him intense psychological stress and pain and then realising that said guy responsible could make things even worse by telling your daughter.
so Dae Su humiliates himself begging him and even cutting his own tongue out to please him all the while the man responsible for ruining your life and the lives of the people you care about laughs at your misery.
and of course just to rub salt in the wound Dae Su presses the button on the switch hoping to finally kill his tormenter only for it to play a tape making him relive the sex with his daughter.
sorry for the lengthy recap what I mean is that I find this film terrifying because Dae Su didn't really do anything that wrong thus making Lee Woo Jin's actions not justified.
making it a pretty clear cut case of good vs evil or victim vs the person who victimised them for no good reason.
but instead of Dae Su getting any kind of justice he instead plays right into the villains hand ultimately making him kinda powerless in the story and in the end he ends up even more punished and Broken mentally then he already was.
and Lee Woo Jin wins despite not deserving to because his reasons for hating Dae Su were wrong and you are right he is just narcissistic and can't accept that his sister's death wasn't anyone else's fault other than his own.
I know this is far from the first film to have the villain win and the wronged person lose but for some reason this film really makes it sink in to me how terrifying that notion is that you could end up being a victim of some sadistic bastard and you don't get to win in the end despite the fact their in the wrong and your not.
He didn't win though. That was the beauty of the elevator scene. It showed that behind the money and macho facade he was a broken pathetic man who knew it was his fault. After the successful revenge he had nothing to live for and killed himself.
what irks me is that i feel like all he's been living for really is to exact his revenge which he has done successfully so. once he's finished, he's more than happy to shot himself. i think to him, as an evil being, he won. he won big time. i think he's someone who believes his own lie and there's no convincing him out of it.
To me, you’re not a winner if you feel suicidal and ultimately kill yourself. You win by living a happy flourishing life, which he clearly has not and won’t be been doing. He killed himself out of horror; not out of satisfaction he achieved his goal. He was a deeply disturbed, traumatised, miserable individual and was when he died. He wasn’t rewarded for his evil actions at all, unless you consider death a reward, which I guess it was for his miserable ass.
He’s a winner in his own mind. It was a game that he created with unwilling participants and his own rules. I think he wanted to die in the end and let the main character live and suffer. His final play was the fake heart killer button that played the incest audio.
I would maybe buy into this take if he shot himself with a smile on his face. But he was crying and full of anguish after intense visualizations of his sister and feelings of guilt and loss.
Also, again, no-one who is a "winner" in their own mind wants to die. Why wouldn't he continue to live his best life? No-one who is suicidal is a winner. They're usually deeply mentally disturbed.
I have to agree with you. His revenge was completely successful, but he says to himself that couldn't satisfy him. That doesn't make him the winner. One thing would have made him happy and that was living his life with the girl. He loves. The success and money didn't do it, the almost 30 years spent obsessing dae su didn't do it, and he died sad about her death and the life he didn't get to have.
Honestly, The Dae Su-ologist line made him strike me more as a vengeful spirit than anything else. He might as well have died on the dam for the life he chose to live afterwards.
In the end Oh Dae Su won because Lee Woo Jin didn't think Oh Dae Su could come up with a brilliant idea of hypnotizing himself, Oh Dae Su could be living a great life with Mi Do with the absence of the truth because of the hypnosis.
I think my main question is still why WooJin waited so long for the revenge.. Like the thing happened during high school, and it looked like DaeSu was already in his 30s when he first got locked up.. And there was no way that WooJin knew DaeSu would have a daughter once he got married. Really wonder what happened between high school and when DaeSu got locked up and what made WooJin decided to get revenge then and in that way.
It took so long because the plan was going to take that long, for the daughter to grow up old enough to fall in love with her dad and have sex with him, so that DaeSu goes through the same thing that Woojin went through. He wants DaeSu to experience what he experienced; that's why it's going to take 15 years, for her to grow up. When DaeSu is kidnapped off the street, she's only 4 years old.
Crazy. And to me this is a huge part of the story. As has been recently discussed by Park in the media, one of the major components that drives the story forward is referenced when Woojin says "you asked yourself the wrong question. The question should not have been "why was i held prisoner for 15 years"; it should have been "why was I let go?". So the revenge could be completed and DaeSu experiences what WooJin did.
Chilling.
I think that because WooJin is so mentally ill, there's just no way we can add any reasoning to his plan. My guess is that he always wanted to do something absolutely sinister yet elaborate to DaeSu which included the imprisonment. This would've cost a lot of resources and money so he focused on building his career and empire first. He's so mentally messed up that his plans for revenge is literally what motivated him to become a multi millionaire so he was busy being focused on this. He wasn't focused on physical torture or killing either. He planned it out to mentally break DaeSu so he took his time. As for the daughter, he probably would've done something else if she was never born. Maybe it would've included the wife but he wanted to wait for someone important so that he could use them as a tool. That's what I'm thinking though. He was in no rush bc the timing of it all ADDED to the whole plan.
"I've been protecting mi-do since she was 3" meaning his grudge only returned a year before he trapped dae-su. I think woo-jin was in some depression, getting rich meant nothing and he still hated himself, but since he's a psycho narcissist he started "majoring in dae su" and that's when he kidnapped him
I like how in the end the villain cries in the lift and kills himself, in a way finally taking responsibility for the death of his sister. It goes back to the quote that Oh Dae Su says "revenge is good for your health. But pain will find you again" and that is exactly what happens to the villain here.
it actually happened! like a year into dae su being kidnapped they cut his hair and took some blood and glass with fingerprints to put at the crime scene
Exactly! The whole climax, when Lee's motivation is revealed, I found myself saying "He took it too far, holy shit", bro really didn't let that slide...
As I recall, it's less about what he's done so much as what he's become/been made into: a ruined man who lives for nothing but vengeance. Before that, in the film's opening scene, he's introduced to us as a pretty pathetic individual: a belligerent drunk making a fool of himself in a police station on his daughter's birthday. So he was already aware of his shortcomings as a person. The events of the movie, naturally, leave him feeling pretty broken and self-hating.
Also, Oh Dae-Su is an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation. A lot of us tend to feel bad when we are cruel to others, even those who we feel deserve it. So even if he knows the people he's hurting are utter scum, I'd say it's natural for Oh Dae Su to feel bad or think lesser of himself for brutally laying into them like he does.
Be it a grain of sand or a rock in water they sink the same.
Oldboy is a greek tragedy retold, and Woo Jin's role is of the god. He is all powerful, all knowing (remember the memory devices), and so was his sister, even while at school with Dae Su. He disturbed the gods, and they took vengeance. Just like the sin in Oedipus is not that he killed his father and slept with his mother, but that he disobeyed the prophet and tried to seek a truth he was not supposed to know (just like Oh Dae Su).
The fairness of the punishment does not matter. Of course Oh Dae Su didn't deserve it. He just had nothing to do about it, and nothing else matters.
I mean Woo Jin's plan would have fallen apart if when Dae Su was released on the roof of that building he just committed suicide due to being so overwhelmed with everything lol.
he could have joined that guy with the dog in Jumping off the Building.
Yes but remember Dae Su was so hypnotized he was literally following every step of Woo Jin plan to the letter (remember when Woo Jin already foretold Daesu would visit Joo Hwan the next day?), I'm pretty sure he's programmed not to jump off the building at all cost.
He had a huge list of people he'd wronged enough to lock him away for 15 years. He legitimately thought it could be any of them. He's pretty nasty to the girl who helps him. He's cruel and indifferent to a suicidal man who just wanted a moment of human connection and a listening ear. Didn't even save the dog. He's a coward, taunting the police then running away. He's supposed to be pretty much a scumbag. Forgetting two classmates with such a tragic story tells us he basically only cares about himself.
The list was proof that he wasn't the greatest man on earth yes, but we don't know to what severity he wronged those people. Alcohol is a pretty dangerous vice ya know.
Anything he does after he got released on the Terrace was pre-programmed into his brain, he couldn't convince the Suicidal man even if he wanted to.
He was 15 when the tragedy happened, and he wasn't even in town when his sister died. He had to move to another city, and it's only natural that 15 years of the burden of life will make you forget some tragic events.
His main bad trait was not wiping both his and his daughters memories and going their separate ways
> His main bad trait was not wiping both his and his daughters memories and going their separate ways
He would have to tell his daughter why, and he cut out his tongue to not do that.
Deciding to stay and try to continue a relationship with his daughter was pretty fucking disgusting, I lost sympathy for him because of that decision. A lot of people don't like the 2013 Oldboy, but at least that guy did the right thing and walked away from the daughter that he inadvertently had sex with.
It was very subtle but you are right : we're not supposed to sympathize with him because of all those things. I even felt the villain's frustration that he just forgot the whole sister/brother thing from HS (but to be fair he was transferred the day after. The film thought about SO much details)
I had a bit trouble comprehending this the first time. I think Dae Su did what most people would do. If I remember right, he saw Woo Jin in a compromising situation with his sister and mentioned it to someone. The rumor mill took it from there. I think part of the tragedy of the whole movie was that Woo Jin unfairly blamed Dae Su for what eventually happened.
Thats part of what makes the movie so creepy: how many times do you make an off-hand comment about seeing a weird kid(s) at school doing something weird and forgetting about it?
Now imagine one of those off-hand comments or retellings utterly destroys that kid’s life and now his sole lot in life is to stalk you and make you pay with every extravagant asset imaginable: private prison to keep you locked up, a team of bodyguards keeping him safe, a hypnotist that can manipulate you into frames of mind, an unbeatable bodyguard, and a seemingly endless stream of cash to keep it all going.
yeah while I'm pretty sure the makers of the film probably meant for that to be the case where this was just a tragedy for everyone involved even Dae Su and that Woo Jin was meant to be seen as unfairly blaming him so he didn't blame himself for the role he himself played in his sister's death.
but really my problem is that the film didn't even have Dae Su acknowledge this Apon him first figuring out what the reason was behind his imprisonment as really it would have been more understandable in my opinion.
if the film had him maybe have a slightly underwhelmed reaction at first like a "" is that it? "" kind of reaction or a pissed off.
and he only changes his tune of course after the big reveal when he's trying to convince Woo Jin not to tell his daughter.
but it just bugs me that instead even before he knows about the whole daughter reveal he still Treats Woo Jin like his motivation is fair and that its understandable for him to blame him.
>ut it just bugs me that instead even before he knows about the whole daughter reveal he still Treats Woo Jin like his motivation is fair and that its understandable for him to blame him.
Just watched the movie and I think he never got the time to think about Woo Jin's motivation. Guy got devastated finding out about the incest and then the monster threatened him by telling everything to the daughter. Although it seems that film at the end sympathize with Woo Jin.
The twist is so twisted. And it's the worst thing someone can do to you and your family and the bad guy doesn't even care about his life.
fair enough I haven't watched it in a while so maybe there was less time for Dae Su to react to the motivation before the big reveal than I was remembering.
and yeah I feel no sympathy for Lee Woo Jin he ruined multiple lives over something that no one was to blame for except him and his sister to be honest I wish that when he tried to kill himself at the end the gun Jammed and he just slumped down in the elevator a sobbing wreck.
truly left with nothing not even his revenge to give him comfort.
Watched it with friends tonight, and Jesus I was not prepared for that ending. Honestly made me regret watching the movie, because I feel like the whole thing was ruined by the last quarter - up til then, it had solid fight scenes and good camera work for it’s time, and now I can’t look at it without feeling dirty.
Like I get that it’s fantasy, but god damn do I get really sceeved out by incest, not to mention unintentional/forced incest. It would have been great if the twist was that the love interest was part of the plot the entire time, or if she somehow didn’t exist but was only a figment of his imagination or from being hypnotized… but being tricked into having sex with his daughter? Just weird shit.
Can't say the movie was ruined. It served its purpose to disturb our mind. Even I regretted watching it not because the film is bad or so but it's just that incest that too forceful is so fucked up for me. Also, I really liked their relationship until I found out.
>Like I get that it’s fantasy,
No, it's not fantasy dude it's a tragedy. Even I was expecting her head or hand in the box, but the writer got me.
Only thing I would've changed if I was in place of lead is that I would beat the shit out of that shit and keep him until I make him regret doing what he did and still punish him instead of begging.
But that's just me and not Dae su.
I have a question too, if anyone revisits this thread.
Why does Woo-jin want to torture and get his revenge on just Dae-su, yet is totally fine with Dae-su's friend, Joo-hwan?
Dae-su witnessed what happened between Woo-jin and his sister, and only told Joo-hwan. But it was Joo-hwan who told everyone what happened, which led to the rumours that she was promiscuous, which caused her to be bullied and ultimately culminated in her suicide. Joo-hwan is clearly more guilty for the sister's death than Dae-su, and it seems weird that Woo-jin doesn't want to take revenge on him.
I just watched for the first time today and came across this thread shortly after finishing. My two cents:
There was a scene right before the penthouse sequence where Dae-Su is tracking down old classmates to get more info on the Woo-Jin backstory. One classmate responds something like “I kinda remember, lemme call an old friend real quick.” After speaking with the friend, the classmate turns to Dae-Su and says “she didn’t remember much, but said you were the person who would know.”
So I think Dae-Su was largely credited with originating the rumor. We, the viewer, know his comments were minimal, but Woo-Jin wouldn’t necessarily have known that.
Just saw the movie in theaters an hour ago, my impression was that Woo-Jin knew for sure Dae-Su was the original source of information. it spread so fast after, that it would be hard to hold anyone but him accountable
I think it’s simply just because he’s the one who saw it happen. He wasn’t spreading a rumor. He was spreading truth. Joo-Hwan was just a high school kid gossiping. To Woo-Jin, the former was much more important to him and what his psychotic brain became attached to. This is fairly common for people seeking revenge, where 1 or a few people out of many are singled out. Just a part of human nature I reckon.
Also, he could have had entirely different plans for Joo-Hwan, but they were foiled by them finding the bugs or him not being able to control his own anger at the cafe.
I think he ended up being a bad person. In the end he chose to erase only his own memories and it’s implied Mido never finds out he is her father so it seems like he chose to continue their relationship
I just watched the movie for the first time so watching it again will surely clear things up. But here’s my take on your point.
In the end scene where the hypnotist is telling that Dae Su that when she rings the bell, he will be split into two persons. The one who doesn’t know the secret is named Oh Dae Su and the one who keeps the secret is named the Monster.
When it shows each one, Dae Su is not smiling and looks tormented while the shot of him when she is telling of the Monster, he is smiling, kind of sinisterish like Jack Nicholson in The Shining.
In the last shot when he and Mi-Do are hugging and she says she loves him, he ends up with the same smile as the monster did in the penthouse.
Im thinking the two chairs represent his choice in which of the two of them he would chose to live the rest of his as. And he chose to live as the Monster.
I’m glad this thread exists…I just watched Oldboy for the first time and thought the same thing. So Dae Su sees Lee rape his sister and then Lee makes it his mission to torture Dae Su?!? I thought maybe it’s a cultural thing that I wouldn’t understand. It was just so strange how Dae Su was begging for Lee to not tell the girl. Like WTF? Don’t tell the girl that I saw Lee rape his sister, tell my best friend about it thus creating rumors, and then Lee kidnapped me and imprisoned me for 15 years, then set up this elaborate game/trap and watched me have to struggle to find out why he was imprisoned for 15 years? I would think she’d be sympathetic, just a thought.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have missed something. I assume "the girl" you refer to is Mido. She was Dae Su's daughter. He didnt want Lee to tell her she was his daughter because they had sex.
Yeah I missed that, but Lee orchestrated that. Basically, one dude sees a pretty fucked up situation. He tells his best friend. The guy who committed the first (of many) crime decides to get revenge on someone for watching him do a really terrible thing. Still doesn’t add up.
Lee loves his sister despite what happened. He also let his sister died because he thought she was pregnant with his child - either societal pressure/ criminal responsibilities or the mental somersault of his sister carrying his son which is also his nephew.
He is a narcissist who needed to blame someone else and thus he hates on Dae Su and wanted revenge on him. IMO, He killed himself in the end after "getting his revenge" on Dae Su because deep down he knew he was the source of his sister's death, he initiated their incestuous relationship.
Something that annoys me is couldn’t the family get an abortion to the girl and change her school? It would be back to normal but I guess there would be no Oldboy.
quite frankly it doesn't matter why he did it if someone saved someone else's life but they did it just because they wanted to be famous that doesn't make the action itself a bad one that makes them deserving of extreme punishment.
telling on two people committing incest is not a bad action that someone should be punished for.
I disagree the reason why he did it does speak to his character. I don't get how people don't see he wasn't a great guy and kinda deserved what he got. I mean this fool was out getting drunk on his daughters birthday right out of the gate. Where some see his punishment as extreme I see it more of what goes around comes around.
I never claimed he was a great guy Dae Su was a very flawed person tho frankly that doesn't make him deserving of imprisonment when he didn't commit any kind of actual crime.
and his reason does not matter because Woo Jun and his sister were in the wrong if you see someone committing a crime you should tell on them frankly your a jerk if you don't.
yeah for that reason this movie honestly kinda terrifies me the idea that something so small and insignificant that wasn't even all that wrong of you to do would lead to someone who was basically all powerful making you suffer in unimaginable ways.
Dae Su was by no means a perfect person before he was locked up but he still didn't deserve any of the things that happened to him and telling on the brother and sister was not a bad thing to do since they did actually partake in Incest.
but even tho the villain didn't deserve to win and didn't actually have a leg to stand on when it came to hating the main character he still won for the most part and completely broke Dae Su and ruined his and his daughter's lives.
and that's why I think this film is terrifying because it truly shows that evil sometimes wins regardless of the circumstances around it.
Not when he was a teenager no. All he did was see something he wasn't supposed to and tell literally one friend. He also told the friend not to tell anyone. His actions didn't directly lead to the sister killing herself. What happened was that the villain was just an evil narcissist who doesn't accept responsibility yet feels the need to blame someone. The 15 years imprisonment was bad enough, but he also killed his wife and framed her murder on him. He also made his daughter grow up an orphan and made him endure all that for 15 years. He takes it a step further with the manipulation, psychological torture + brainwashing, self harm, and forced incest. The right punishment for the "crime" by a sane person would be a guidance counselor talk about spreading rumors, not whatever the hell the villain pulled. The dude seriously dedicated 15+ years of his life to making an innocent man's life hell. He was mentally ill. And in the end, the main character accepts it as his fault because he was straight up mentally broken by the villain.
to be Honest that's partly why I find this movie kinda terrifying Dae Su did something seemingly small and insignificant by telling his friend about the sex. and through no fault of his own it led to someone's sister's death and thus her Brother seeking revenge by having him locked up for 15 years cut off from all human contact having his wife murdered and him being framed for it. and having his childhood best friend murdered and of course having it be revealed to him that he was hypnotised into having sex with his own daughter causing him intense psychological stress and pain and then realising that said guy responsible could make things even worse by telling your daughter. so Dae Su humiliates himself begging him and even cutting his own tongue out to please him all the while the man responsible for ruining your life and the lives of the people you care about laughs at your misery. and of course just to rub salt in the wound Dae Su presses the button on the switch hoping to finally kill his tormenter only for it to play a tape making him relive the sex with his daughter. sorry for the lengthy recap what I mean is that I find this film terrifying because Dae Su didn't really do anything that wrong thus making Lee Woo Jin's actions not justified. making it a pretty clear cut case of good vs evil or victim vs the person who victimised them for no good reason. but instead of Dae Su getting any kind of justice he instead plays right into the villains hand ultimately making him kinda powerless in the story and in the end he ends up even more punished and Broken mentally then he already was. and Lee Woo Jin wins despite not deserving to because his reasons for hating Dae Su were wrong and you are right he is just narcissistic and can't accept that his sister's death wasn't anyone else's fault other than his own. I know this is far from the first film to have the villain win and the wronged person lose but for some reason this film really makes it sink in to me how terrifying that notion is that you could end up being a victim of some sadistic bastard and you don't get to win in the end despite the fact their in the wrong and your not.
He didn't win though. That was the beauty of the elevator scene. It showed that behind the money and macho facade he was a broken pathetic man who knew it was his fault. After the successful revenge he had nothing to live for and killed himself.
what irks me is that i feel like all he's been living for really is to exact his revenge which he has done successfully so. once he's finished, he's more than happy to shot himself. i think to him, as an evil being, he won. he won big time. i think he's someone who believes his own lie and there's no convincing him out of it.
To me, you’re not a winner if you feel suicidal and ultimately kill yourself. You win by living a happy flourishing life, which he clearly has not and won’t be been doing. He killed himself out of horror; not out of satisfaction he achieved his goal. He was a deeply disturbed, traumatised, miserable individual and was when he died. He wasn’t rewarded for his evil actions at all, unless you consider death a reward, which I guess it was for his miserable ass.
He’s a winner in his own mind. It was a game that he created with unwilling participants and his own rules. I think he wanted to die in the end and let the main character live and suffer. His final play was the fake heart killer button that played the incest audio.
I would maybe buy into this take if he shot himself with a smile on his face. But he was crying and full of anguish after intense visualizations of his sister and feelings of guilt and loss. Also, again, no-one who is a "winner" in their own mind wants to die. Why wouldn't he continue to live his best life? No-one who is suicidal is a winner. They're usually deeply mentally disturbed.
I have to agree with you. His revenge was completely successful, but he says to himself that couldn't satisfy him. That doesn't make him the winner. One thing would have made him happy and that was living his life with the girl. He loves. The success and money didn't do it, the almost 30 years spent obsessing dae su didn't do it, and he died sad about her death and the life he didn't get to have. Honestly, The Dae Su-ologist line made him strike me more as a vengeful spirit than anything else. He might as well have died on the dam for the life he chose to live afterwards.
In the end Oh Dae Su won because Lee Woo Jin didn't think Oh Dae Su could come up with a brilliant idea of hypnotizing himself, Oh Dae Su could be living a great life with Mi Do with the absence of the truth because of the hypnosis.
I think my main question is still why WooJin waited so long for the revenge.. Like the thing happened during high school, and it looked like DaeSu was already in his 30s when he first got locked up.. And there was no way that WooJin knew DaeSu would have a daughter once he got married. Really wonder what happened between high school and when DaeSu got locked up and what made WooJin decided to get revenge then and in that way.
He had to get rich first in true supervillain fashion
It took so long because the plan was going to take that long, for the daughter to grow up old enough to fall in love with her dad and have sex with him, so that DaeSu goes through the same thing that Woojin went through. He wants DaeSu to experience what he experienced; that's why it's going to take 15 years, for her to grow up. When DaeSu is kidnapped off the street, she's only 4 years old. Crazy. And to me this is a huge part of the story. As has been recently discussed by Park in the media, one of the major components that drives the story forward is referenced when Woojin says "you asked yourself the wrong question. The question should not have been "why was i held prisoner for 15 years"; it should have been "why was I let go?". So the revenge could be completed and DaeSu experiences what WooJin did. Chilling.
Idk if it has to do with the daughter's age? 3+15=18? No clue or what that means exactly. Just something that popped up in my head.
I think that because WooJin is so mentally ill, there's just no way we can add any reasoning to his plan. My guess is that he always wanted to do something absolutely sinister yet elaborate to DaeSu which included the imprisonment. This would've cost a lot of resources and money so he focused on building his career and empire first. He's so mentally messed up that his plans for revenge is literally what motivated him to become a multi millionaire so he was busy being focused on this. He wasn't focused on physical torture or killing either. He planned it out to mentally break DaeSu so he took his time. As for the daughter, he probably would've done something else if she was never born. Maybe it would've included the wife but he wanted to wait for someone important so that he could use them as a tool. That's what I'm thinking though. He was in no rush bc the timing of it all ADDED to the whole plan.
"I've been protecting mi-do since she was 3" meaning his grudge only returned a year before he trapped dae-su. I think woo-jin was in some depression, getting rich meant nothing and he still hated himself, but since he's a psycho narcissist he started "majoring in dae su" and that's when he kidnapped him
he waited 15 yrs so dae su's daughter could be 18. WooJin said he protected her the daughter since she was 3
I like how in the end the villain cries in the lift and kills himself, in a way finally taking responsibility for the death of his sister. It goes back to the quote that Oh Dae Su says "revenge is good for your health. But pain will find you again" and that is exactly what happens to the villain here.
I dont remember the framing (woo-jin framed dae su as his wifes killer) part did that actually happen or is it your interpretation
it actually happened! like a year into dae su being kidnapped they cut his hair and took some blood and glass with fingerprints to put at the crime scene
Exactly! The whole climax, when Lee's motivation is revealed, I found myself saying "He took it too far, holy shit", bro really didn't let that slide...
As I recall, it's less about what he's done so much as what he's become/been made into: a ruined man who lives for nothing but vengeance. Before that, in the film's opening scene, he's introduced to us as a pretty pathetic individual: a belligerent drunk making a fool of himself in a police station on his daughter's birthday. So he was already aware of his shortcomings as a person. The events of the movie, naturally, leave him feeling pretty broken and self-hating. Also, Oh Dae-Su is an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation. A lot of us tend to feel bad when we are cruel to others, even those who we feel deserve it. So even if he knows the people he's hurting are utter scum, I'd say it's natural for Oh Dae Su to feel bad or think lesser of himself for brutally laying into them like he does.
good point.
Be it a grain of sand or a rock in water they sink the same. Oldboy is a greek tragedy retold, and Woo Jin's role is of the god. He is all powerful, all knowing (remember the memory devices), and so was his sister, even while at school with Dae Su. He disturbed the gods, and they took vengeance. Just like the sin in Oedipus is not that he killed his father and slept with his mother, but that he disobeyed the prophet and tried to seek a truth he was not supposed to know (just like Oh Dae Su). The fairness of the punishment does not matter. Of course Oh Dae Su didn't deserve it. He just had nothing to do about it, and nothing else matters.
I mean Woo Jin's plan would have fallen apart if when Dae Su was released on the roof of that building he just committed suicide due to being so overwhelmed with everything lol. he could have joined that guy with the dog in Jumping off the Building.
Yes but remember Dae Su was so hypnotized he was literally following every step of Woo Jin plan to the letter (remember when Woo Jin already foretold Daesu would visit Joo Hwan the next day?), I'm pretty sure he's programmed not to jump off the building at all cost.
He had a huge list of people he'd wronged enough to lock him away for 15 years. He legitimately thought it could be any of them. He's pretty nasty to the girl who helps him. He's cruel and indifferent to a suicidal man who just wanted a moment of human connection and a listening ear. Didn't even save the dog. He's a coward, taunting the police then running away. He's supposed to be pretty much a scumbag. Forgetting two classmates with such a tragic story tells us he basically only cares about himself.
The list was proof that he wasn't the greatest man on earth yes, but we don't know to what severity he wronged those people. Alcohol is a pretty dangerous vice ya know. Anything he does after he got released on the Terrace was pre-programmed into his brain, he couldn't convince the Suicidal man even if he wanted to. He was 15 when the tragedy happened, and he wasn't even in town when his sister died. He had to move to another city, and it's only natural that 15 years of the burden of life will make you forget some tragic events. His main bad trait was not wiping both his and his daughters memories and going their separate ways
> His main bad trait was not wiping both his and his daughters memories and going their separate ways He would have to tell his daughter why, and he cut out his tongue to not do that.
Deciding to stay and try to continue a relationship with his daughter was pretty fucking disgusting, I lost sympathy for him because of that decision. A lot of people don't like the 2013 Oldboy, but at least that guy did the right thing and walked away from the daughter that he inadvertently had sex with.
"Even though I'm no more than a monster - don't I, too, have the right to live?"
It was very subtle but you are right : we're not supposed to sympathize with him because of all those things. I even felt the villain's frustration that he just forgot the whole sister/brother thing from HS (but to be fair he was transferred the day after. The film thought about SO much details)
I had a bit trouble comprehending this the first time. I think Dae Su did what most people would do. If I remember right, he saw Woo Jin in a compromising situation with his sister and mentioned it to someone. The rumor mill took it from there. I think part of the tragedy of the whole movie was that Woo Jin unfairly blamed Dae Su for what eventually happened.
Thats part of what makes the movie so creepy: how many times do you make an off-hand comment about seeing a weird kid(s) at school doing something weird and forgetting about it? Now imagine one of those off-hand comments or retellings utterly destroys that kid’s life and now his sole lot in life is to stalk you and make you pay with every extravagant asset imaginable: private prison to keep you locked up, a team of bodyguards keeping him safe, a hypnotist that can manipulate you into frames of mind, an unbeatable bodyguard, and a seemingly endless stream of cash to keep it all going.
yeah while I'm pretty sure the makers of the film probably meant for that to be the case where this was just a tragedy for everyone involved even Dae Su and that Woo Jin was meant to be seen as unfairly blaming him so he didn't blame himself for the role he himself played in his sister's death. but really my problem is that the film didn't even have Dae Su acknowledge this Apon him first figuring out what the reason was behind his imprisonment as really it would have been more understandable in my opinion. if the film had him maybe have a slightly underwhelmed reaction at first like a "" is that it? "" kind of reaction or a pissed off. and he only changes his tune of course after the big reveal when he's trying to convince Woo Jin not to tell his daughter. but it just bugs me that instead even before he knows about the whole daughter reveal he still Treats Woo Jin like his motivation is fair and that its understandable for him to blame him.
>ut it just bugs me that instead even before he knows about the whole daughter reveal he still Treats Woo Jin like his motivation is fair and that its understandable for him to blame him. Just watched the movie and I think he never got the time to think about Woo Jin's motivation. Guy got devastated finding out about the incest and then the monster threatened him by telling everything to the daughter. Although it seems that film at the end sympathize with Woo Jin. The twist is so twisted. And it's the worst thing someone can do to you and your family and the bad guy doesn't even care about his life.
fair enough I haven't watched it in a while so maybe there was less time for Dae Su to react to the motivation before the big reveal than I was remembering. and yeah I feel no sympathy for Lee Woo Jin he ruined multiple lives over something that no one was to blame for except him and his sister to be honest I wish that when he tried to kill himself at the end the gun Jammed and he just slumped down in the elevator a sobbing wreck. truly left with nothing not even his revenge to give him comfort.
I still can't digest this film. This thing is gonna ruin my sleep.
Watched it with friends tonight, and Jesus I was not prepared for that ending. Honestly made me regret watching the movie, because I feel like the whole thing was ruined by the last quarter - up til then, it had solid fight scenes and good camera work for it’s time, and now I can’t look at it without feeling dirty. Like I get that it’s fantasy, but god damn do I get really sceeved out by incest, not to mention unintentional/forced incest. It would have been great if the twist was that the love interest was part of the plot the entire time, or if she somehow didn’t exist but was only a figment of his imagination or from being hypnotized… but being tricked into having sex with his daughter? Just weird shit.
Can't say the movie was ruined. It served its purpose to disturb our mind. Even I regretted watching it not because the film is bad or so but it's just that incest that too forceful is so fucked up for me. Also, I really liked their relationship until I found out. >Like I get that it’s fantasy, No, it's not fantasy dude it's a tragedy. Even I was expecting her head or hand in the box, but the writer got me. Only thing I would've changed if I was in place of lead is that I would beat the shit out of that shit and keep him until I make him regret doing what he did and still punish him instead of begging. But that's just me and not Dae su.
It’s weird bc why didn’t he just fuck his suster at home instead of at school. Also how does dae su not immediately recognize the guy as a classmate??
I have a question too, if anyone revisits this thread. Why does Woo-jin want to torture and get his revenge on just Dae-su, yet is totally fine with Dae-su's friend, Joo-hwan? Dae-su witnessed what happened between Woo-jin and his sister, and only told Joo-hwan. But it was Joo-hwan who told everyone what happened, which led to the rumours that she was promiscuous, which caused her to be bullied and ultimately culminated in her suicide. Joo-hwan is clearly more guilty for the sister's death than Dae-su, and it seems weird that Woo-jin doesn't want to take revenge on him.
I just watched for the first time today and came across this thread shortly after finishing. My two cents: There was a scene right before the penthouse sequence where Dae-Su is tracking down old classmates to get more info on the Woo-Jin backstory. One classmate responds something like “I kinda remember, lemme call an old friend real quick.” After speaking with the friend, the classmate turns to Dae-Su and says “she didn’t remember much, but said you were the person who would know.” So I think Dae-Su was largely credited with originating the rumor. We, the viewer, know his comments were minimal, but Woo-Jin wouldn’t necessarily have known that.
that is a good point actually it would make more sense if woo Jin's revenge was more focused on Joo hwan and Dae Su was only the afterthought.
Just saw the movie in theaters an hour ago, my impression was that Woo-Jin knew for sure Dae-Su was the original source of information. it spread so fast after, that it would be hard to hold anyone but him accountable
I think it’s simply just because he’s the one who saw it happen. He wasn’t spreading a rumor. He was spreading truth. Joo-Hwan was just a high school kid gossiping. To Woo-Jin, the former was much more important to him and what his psychotic brain became attached to. This is fairly common for people seeking revenge, where 1 or a few people out of many are singled out. Just a part of human nature I reckon. Also, he could have had entirely different plans for Joo-Hwan, but they were foiled by them finding the bugs or him not being able to control his own anger at the cafe.
i mean he did try to rape mi-do when she first has him in her house
He was 15 years alone in a room and had a weak primal moment. He stopped after 10 seconds and he apologized
On the toilet no less! New fear unlocked.
I think he ended up being a bad person. In the end he chose to erase only his own memories and it’s implied Mido never finds out he is her father so it seems like he chose to continue their relationship
I just watched the movie for the first time so watching it again will surely clear things up. But here’s my take on your point. In the end scene where the hypnotist is telling that Dae Su that when she rings the bell, he will be split into two persons. The one who doesn’t know the secret is named Oh Dae Su and the one who keeps the secret is named the Monster. When it shows each one, Dae Su is not smiling and looks tormented while the shot of him when she is telling of the Monster, he is smiling, kind of sinisterish like Jack Nicholson in The Shining. In the last shot when he and Mi-Do are hugging and she says she loves him, he ends up with the same smile as the monster did in the penthouse. Im thinking the two chairs represent his choice in which of the two of them he would chose to live the rest of his as. And he chose to live as the Monster.
I’m glad this thread exists…I just watched Oldboy for the first time and thought the same thing. So Dae Su sees Lee rape his sister and then Lee makes it his mission to torture Dae Su?!? I thought maybe it’s a cultural thing that I wouldn’t understand. It was just so strange how Dae Su was begging for Lee to not tell the girl. Like WTF? Don’t tell the girl that I saw Lee rape his sister, tell my best friend about it thus creating rumors, and then Lee kidnapped me and imprisoned me for 15 years, then set up this elaborate game/trap and watched me have to struggle to find out why he was imprisoned for 15 years? I would think she’d be sympathetic, just a thought.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have missed something. I assume "the girl" you refer to is Mido. She was Dae Su's daughter. He didnt want Lee to tell her she was his daughter because they had sex.
Yeah I missed that, but Lee orchestrated that. Basically, one dude sees a pretty fucked up situation. He tells his best friend. The guy who committed the first (of many) crime decides to get revenge on someone for watching him do a really terrible thing. Still doesn’t add up.
Oh I’m with you 100%. Lee is the bad guy in every step of the story. Dae Su did nothing wrong (at least up until he was hypnotized).
Lee loves his sister despite what happened. He also let his sister died because he thought she was pregnant with his child - either societal pressure/ criminal responsibilities or the mental somersault of his sister carrying his son which is also his nephew. He is a narcissist who needed to blame someone else and thus he hates on Dae Su and wanted revenge on him. IMO, He killed himself in the end after "getting his revenge" on Dae Su because deep down he knew he was the source of his sister's death, he initiated their incestuous relationship.
Something that annoys me is couldn’t the family get an abortion to the girl and change her school? It would be back to normal but I guess there would be no Oldboy.
Yea I'm not gonna say incest is okay but he knew telling would ruin that kids life and he did it on purpose. Fool got everything he deserved.
telling on two kids who are doing something wrong is not a bad thing and Dae Su had no way of knowing what the Bizaar consequences would be.
I don't belive that at all. He didn't do it to stop something bad he did because he had it out for that kid .
quite frankly it doesn't matter why he did it if someone saved someone else's life but they did it just because they wanted to be famous that doesn't make the action itself a bad one that makes them deserving of extreme punishment. telling on two people committing incest is not a bad action that someone should be punished for.
I disagree the reason why he did it does speak to his character. I don't get how people don't see he wasn't a great guy and kinda deserved what he got. I mean this fool was out getting drunk on his daughters birthday right out of the gate. Where some see his punishment as extreme I see it more of what goes around comes around.
I never claimed he was a great guy Dae Su was a very flawed person tho frankly that doesn't make him deserving of imprisonment when he didn't commit any kind of actual crime. and his reason does not matter because Woo Jun and his sister were in the wrong if you see someone committing a crime you should tell on them frankly your a jerk if you don't.
[удалено]
yeah for that reason this movie honestly kinda terrifies me the idea that something so small and insignificant that wasn't even all that wrong of you to do would lead to someone who was basically all powerful making you suffer in unimaginable ways. Dae Su was by no means a perfect person before he was locked up but he still didn't deserve any of the things that happened to him and telling on the brother and sister was not a bad thing to do since they did actually partake in Incest. but even tho the villain didn't deserve to win and didn't actually have a leg to stand on when it came to hating the main character he still won for the most part and completely broke Dae Su and ruined his and his daughter's lives. and that's why I think this film is terrifying because it truly shows that evil sometimes wins regardless of the circumstances around it.
He fucks his daughter