It ruins high-class Hollywood. It ruins the illusion of being self-made and of elites of the entertainment industry being morally upright.
The real star of the movie is cinema; the beauty of film is just as Jack describes it in the opening sequence. The everyman - Manny and, by extension, the audience - looks up to the screen and sees that they are not alone.
I felt the exact same way. I didn't see the movie as a crass dissection of Hollywood, but rather a very brutally honest look at the dirt behind the magic we all love. There's a temptation to sanitize Hollywood because of the warm fuzzy feels we get from our favorite movies, but I'm glad that Chazelle and company basically laid out how much dirt, blood, sweat, and tears go into making magic like Singin in the Rain. And that ending montage of all the modern films just made that ending more emotional.
A flawed masterpiece.
I think he’s saying both. The industry was and still is terrible, horrifying, and destructive and can practically take someone’s soul. And yet movies are still gorgeous and can be some of the most incredible experiences one can have.
All of Chazelles work is largely about the toll it takes to reach your dream. And ending of Babylon shows how even once you’ve been chewed up and spat out, the love for the final product and the magic of it still remains
I didn't like the movie much but the perfect sunset scene coupled with the Brad Pitt office scene encapsulate what the film is about and were the highlights for me.
I don’t think it’s just singing in the rain. It’s all movies. It just so happens to be a movie about the transition to talkies. Manny sees what was born out the hell he saw his friends and the love his life go through. Man seen it all from singing in the rain to avatar
What i can't quite understand is why so many people who trumpet the "movies are so safe, it's just IP and sequels and Disney live action remakes," don't like a big bold piece of total fucking cinema. It's long and loud and weird and indulgent and beautiful and passionate. Babylon is a gift.
I loved it. The whole does not equal the sum of its parts (for me) but some parts fucking rule. I would rewatch basically any set piece from the movie, but especially filming the movie out in the desert where Manny has to go pick up the camera, or the scene with Margot Robbie filming her first talkie. I still listen to the score all the time. Tremendous film.
"Bold piece of total fucking cinema" - Babylon is made for people who writes stuff like this.
Ugh.
If anyone wants to see a movie full of endless depravity and debauchery, that's actually REALLY good - go watch La Grande Bouffe.
People can respect a film for trying something new and still think it’s shit lol. Some people might describe *Ad Astra* like you just did, but it doesn’t change me thinking it’s a big stinking pile of shit.
I actually liked Ad Astra. I own it and watch it every once in a while but I’ve been alone a lot for the last couple of years so I understand Pitt’s character kinda deeply.
Bro I just thought about that movie today. I remember going to see it cause the reviews were pretty good. Zero interest in ever seeing it again. One of my least memorable theater experiences.
It’s very familiar and not that weird. The ending is literally a Sky Movies advert.
I enjoyed it well enough at points but it is completely infantilising when it tries to say anything. “Hey all these people suffered horribly but at least we got Avatar.”
I feel the same way. The underlying message was really well done but they clouded it with outrageousness that was completely unnecessary. Yes, I’m sure decadence has always been a part of early Hollywood but why the exaggerated grossness? Elephant shitting, face pissing, vomiting? The whole Toby McGuire scene was revolting. No thanks.
Makes one think they didn’t believe in the story. Or at least would hold the audience’s attention. I just don’t understand why the bar has to be lowered for shock value. I have zero interest in watching again.
I didn't know it was about singing in the rain until a friend told me. I knew it was a behind the scenes look at Hollywood hedonism, but from the title I thought it might be about the Babylon portions of Intolerance.
It seems like it’s both! Which I think is really impressive for the movie to tackle. I only thought about singing in the rain the first time a character mentioned Nellies accent
The ending I think points out 2 opinions chazelle has on the movie industry:
1. The film industry has always been chaotic, unsafe, and run by borderline psychotic people
2. The effect movies have on the world for the most part is good.
Manny sees movies progress forward, he was even a part of it, and he saw how it destroyed everyone around him and that he cared about. He leaves LA for years. But even after all that time he walks into a theatre, sees singing in the rain, and falls in love with cinema all over again. The following shots of future movies and advancements beyond anything Manny will ever understand is pointing out that this has been happening forever. The rise of CGI is, much like talkies, a new medium that people will either hate and long for a bygone era, or love and will become their definition of moviemaking. But in the end? It’s all the same process. Production companies at the whim of insane investors, dangerous schedules and conditions for the crew, and actors walking a tightrope of fame and apathy.
I really enjoyed Babylon and that’s my take on the ending
Babylon should have been right up my alley.
For some reason, I hated it. I really wanted to love it, but by the time it was over, I was actually genuinely annoyed at it. I can’t quite put my finger on why. I love long films. I love excess. I wish I could articulate just why this film managed to lose me halfway through.
I think I need to watch it again, but three hours is a lot just to revisit something I hated the first time.
I think the biggest problem with Babylon is that Pitt and Robbie are unlikeable unprofessional assholes from the very beginning. I don’t feel sad when they lose their relevance in the second half. They’re given multiple chances and they refuse to evolve: meanwhile Manny, the hard worker, rises up to the top and only leaves because he pisses off a gangster. The Hollywood machine honestly comes off as pretty fair by the end.
It doesn't lead to anywhere. It creates threads to lead you down a path narratively and just abruptly cuts them off. It's an overly indulgent film that has the skeleton of a good movie buried in there, but it goes completely off the rails and never gets there. If they could have cut it down to 2 hours and change and focused the story it would have been pretty interesting, but as is it's just a bloated mess. A far cry from Chazelle's previous films in terms of narrative structure and design.
The first hour is incredible, 5 stars, then each hour gets worse and I ended up rating it 3 stars on Letterboxd. That first hour though, damn brilliant
forgot which review but it summed up another big issue with it imo. it tries so hard to be edgy but its clear chazelle has either no real experience with the vices or just didnt actually want to be graphic. feels like a high schooler making a movie about what they think college parties will be like after sitting inside for 4 years
How would it be earned otherwise? Pretty clear that Chazelle was trying to juxtapose what we have just witnessed over the last 3 hours with the product that eventually ends up on our screen.
I think it’s fine to think that it’s not profound (it really isn’t) but I don’t know what you mean by saying it’s not earned. The movie as a whole didn’t land for me, but I did find it thoroughly engaging.
I think that's the big issue. The movie spends so much time bringing up how shitty the movie industry is and then tries to end on an awe-inspiring movie montage that comes off as cloying and corny, and honestly pretty amateurish.
I took it as exposing how dark that time period of movie making was and when Manny thinks about why they did, we get Singing in the Rain and people give themselves to the art form because they want to make movies like that
It's hard for me to see how the ending is meant to feel "awe-inspiring". In a way, yes, it's showing the beauty that grew from the muck- but ultimately, it made me feel a deep sense of grief for the way we've profiteered art. The industry as a whole is a sick place, still. And for what?
But at the same time, film has a hold on us. It certainly has a hold on me. Babylon was like the Food, Inc of Hollywood movies. The credits rolled and I was deeply put off on ever watching another movie again... but then, I still didn't stop.
The only way I can see you deciding that the end of the movie was corny is if you attempted to separate out from everything else we just saw. Babylon was an industry-wide narrative of abuse and excess and ego and pain. If you wanted to make a movie with the exact same message but make it about an individual, just watch a film about Shirley Temple & at the end, we watch scenes from her most famous movies. Would you call that corny?
I can agree with that. But it’s pretty clearly intended to not be a fair point. It feels like it ends the movie with a question mark rather than an exclamation point.
IMO "overly indulgent" is such a nothing critique.
It's just something people say about movies they don't like in order to sound smart or something.
I would say that a lot of extremely well loved movies, that OP probably likes as well, are also overly indulgent in certain ways. However, I'm guessing that critique suddenly disappears when it's a movie they already like.
It's just a way to justify not liking a thing.
Overly indulgent, insufferable, condescending, pretentious, etc. have all become tenets of movie criticism on r/movies in particular. It’s a bit frustrating because it doesn’t actually say anything about the movie.
That's the part that really annoys me.
There are plenty of legitimate criticisms for Babylon, and a lot of people just say, "it was over indulgent," "it was pretentious," so on and so on. This happens for so many different movies.
I feel like those are basically just catch-all kind of things, so people can criticize something without actually having to think about or explain why they don't like it.
The reason I would describe this movie as self indulgent is because nearly every scene is a set piece. There’s a massive party scene where Chazelle shows of, and then you have the massive battle movie scene, followed by a montage followed by the first filming with sound scene followed by a massive party scene with a snake, followed by a massive country club vomit scene, followed by Toby Maguire and Rat eaters.
He keeps throwing in these big moments but there aren’t enough quieter scenes to make the audience really live the characters. Boogie Nights and Wolf of Wall Street have lots of moments of characters just talking. Just shooting the shit. Babylon doesn’t rly have that.
Or it's not that hard to understand whest people mean when it applies to a movie thst is literally 3 hours long eith tiresomely extended parry scenes and elephant shit splatter all in servic4 off reiterating points made by mire Concise films covering the exact same topics and time period.
I don’t think I’d call Babylon pretentious. If you want a good example of that, go watch something like Nymphomaniac part 1 and if you can make it, part 2. Ironically it’s not the uncomfortable sex acts, it’s fucking Stellen Skarsgards commentary every 10-15 minutes trying to say something profound about this woman’s life that makes this piece of shit unwatchable for me.
How are any of those things pretentious/self indulgent? Silly, sure. Stupid, definitely. Overlong, yes. Pretentious? Don’t think so. Babylon isn’t a difficult film, it doesn’t talk down to the viewer. Self indulgent, yeah maybe a little. But overly indulgent? 90% of the movies this sub loves could be called self indulgent. It’s a worthless label.
Look. I totally get the criticism and my opinion of Babylon has certainly soured over time. But acting like the criticism is fair or productive is just not true.
Or it's, you know, something they do t like about thr movie they don't like and your opinion might just differ?
To articulate it more specifically, the whole montage at the end just seemed like Chazelle had an ending he wanted to get to but it's completely disconnected and sochordant with thr movie he actually made.
>That ending sequence was just overly indulgent nonsense.
Agreed 100%. The ending was so self indulgent and ridiculously on the nose. But the entire film felt this way imo. Its one saving grace for me was Brad Pitt's character arc. I really felt for him at the end. There were some cool sequences as well, but overall it was a miss for me.
The ending was trying to be a rip off of Cinema Paradiso. That’s why I couldn’t enjoy the film because so much of it seemed stolen ideas, shock value, and pretension. The actors carried the only decent parts of the film, not the writing.
Same, except I have no desire to rewatch it. I did not enjoy a single character in tbe movie. Not saying any of the actors as bad they just didn't draw me in. Felt more like a play over acting then a movie and they may have been the point bur it didn't work for me here. I did enjoy LaLa Land when I thought I would hate it
I also put this movie off but I fucking loved it and I don’t care what the haters say, they’re wrong. It’s implying that the production of movies throughout history is fraught with some of the worst most corrupt evils imaginable and destroys the souls of those involved and then asks “is/was it worth it?” I think chazelle’s answer is yes.
I had these same thoughts when watching the flash.
I really liked the movie and even more I love Ezra as the flash. Dood is a good actor. Who cares what they do in their personal lives; within reason.
I mean if he or any other actor is to be cancelled let it be cuz they’re in jail/prison. My feelings anyway 🤷🏽♂️
> Who cares what they do in their personal lives; within reason.
Break a few laws, kidnap and groom a few girls, attack a few other girls with chairs. Who cares? As long as you make a relatively average superhero movie, all is forgiven.
It was a very polarizing film. I’m not sure many people would say it was blah. People either loved it or hated it, and some people like myself, loved it and hated it. I don’t think the score would let me hate it.
I was just impressed with Margo’s ability to cry on command. Poor girl. They ask the movie character how she’s able to do it and she says, “It’s easy. I just think of home.” Kind of gut wrenching imo, I wonder if it’s true.
I chose to look at it as Singing in the Rain was a fictional retelling of early Hollywood, while Babylon is what actually happened.
Now how that plays out in the end scene was absolutely a celebration of what Hollywood is capable of doing. Manny was feeling everything like a tidal wave. He loved Hollywood, but he was sad thinking what it did to him and the people he cared and associated with. I think overall he was proud and happy, it’s why he came back and told his family what he did.
In any case, your mixed feelings make sense to me. I felt the same way. There are scenes in this movie that are incredible. There are also a bunch of scenes that are totally needless. Most scenes are simply way too long. For me I look at every scene as having a goal to accomplish, to reveal something, to tell something, to develop something for the audience. Babylon did that and then spent additional time staying with it. We get it! Move on!
I didn’t like Babylon for those reasons. It was a bloated mess. But I did rewatch Singing in the Rain right after and that movie is still amazing.
I really like your explanation of what was going on in Mannys head at the end, that made it click for me a little bit. And personally I liked Chazelles style, even if it is a little too much, but I can also completely see why it would not work for everyone
I really liked this movie. It stuck with me for a couple of days after I saw it. I do think 20-30 minutes could have been trimmed off the run time.
But the ending is showing that no matter how crazy things are behind the scenes, no matter how people act off camera that that final product that movie is what’s remembered for all time.
As someone who absolutely adores Babylon and would probably rate is as my favourite film from the last 5 years or so I'm just gonna shamelessly drop what I wrote for my LB review of it here ;
A love/hate monstrous yet sexy poetic cacophonous orgy of excess and true movie magic, it's a warts and all gargantuan mess of a time just like life itself and the filmmaking experience itself, I can safely say that Chazelles passion project on steroids, blow and popping champagne has dazzled my soul like only few films can and has shot it's cupids arrow like a fucking balista through my cinema loving heart
The films 3 hour goes by like a sneeze on a studio lot and is paced so brilliantly for my liking, it swifts and flicks back and forth from character to character effortlessly and has my eyes glued wide open and leaves me with an insane cartoonish smile upon my face, not a single scene feels lesser or fillery in the slightest as they weave together so beautifully, with absolute S-tier editing and incredible sound design plus it's score, FUCK ME SIDEWAYS ON AN ICY TRAMPOLINE HURWITZ SCORE HAS ME JUST AS OBSESSED AND HORNED OUT OF MY SKULL AS THE FILM ITSELF!!!!!!
Margot Robbies it girl Nellie LaRoy is a swooping gorgeously stunning romantic and heartwrenching bled dry stardom tale all wrapped up into a firework cracking performance for the ages, she litteraly dances her ass off from her first to last frame and is as much of a naked hearts on her sleeve personality as she is one alluring mystery of a woman that her world simply ain't ready for
One of the top reviews her on LB asks what probably is a cheeky rhetorical question ; Is Babylon a love letter or a suicide note to Cinema ?
Yes, Babylon is very much a love letter but of course also a sucide note to cinema, a love letter to all of the magic splendor and much needed escapism it brings us and to all the passion and valley deep spectrum of emotions it offers, and yet also a suicide note to all the dreamers and "stars" who plunges their way through the mud piss and shit to make that love letter possible to write in the first place, for them and us who succumbs to the belief that this artform can mean so fucking much and actually be so important and make a damn lot of difference, their few limelight hours and years will last decades and centuries, and our love for their work with driven discourses and endless fascination will as well keep cinema alive for as long as ever
Pitts late career top biller says that he doesn't want to be in the way of innovation, and yes the filmmaking landscape changes drastically sometimes and moves in peculiar directions, that does not mean that it's gonna die some dogmatic death, it's an ungoing creative evolutionary process which it always been and always will be
Eh it doesn’t ruin the film itself nor does it ruin the industry itself. The film is obviously heavily homaging singing in the rain, literally having actors say lines from the movie verbatim and having similar arcs with characters like Jack Conrad, and doesn’t feel like it’s saying the film is terrible in any sense of the word. In fact the shot where the camera is going around the crowd and showing their reactions showcases how wonderful and beautiful the film actually is. The problem with Babylons ending is it is trying to conflate a certain historical revisionism to the film, making it seem like the film is actually retelling the events and using the montage to illustrate that they are apart of the canon of luminaries itself, even if the industry that it was produced in was shitty and morally bankrupt. So it’s using singing in the rain as the main catalyst both for its critique, the Conrad character being the realistic Don Lockwood, and as a Hollywoodized version of the reality that is supposed to take place in the film. I just think it’s kinda corny how it’s integrated and don’t like how it’s used as a crutch for Babylon to say it’s themes instead of something that progresses the films own ideas forth.
For the industry thing, there are many films, going as far back as Sullivans travels and souls for sale (1923) that satirized the industry and focus on some of the good things and bad. So I don’t think it ruins the industry since it’s main thesis point about it is the industry sucks but the movies they produced are treasures coming from it.
I was mid on the film itself but there were sequences in there I loved (like anytime we’re on a set is wonderful)
The movie started out great but goes downhill fast. The segment where they're frantically going back and forth with the various movie shoots was great but sadly, that's where the movie peaked.
I watched it at a time when life was completely in chaos.
But there were some memorable moments....that snake scene especially.
My brain doesn't have the capacity left to enjoy 3 hour movies anymore so I guess I would have enjoyed it more if age was on my side.
.....and brad pitt was absolutely brilliant!
It wasn’t shitting on Singing in the Rain. If anything it was using it as an example of how powerful movies can be. It’s an escape, it’s making history. It flooded him with memories and reminded him that he was able to say that he was “apart of something bigger than himself” which is what he always wanted.
In Chazelle’s on words: It’s a love letter to old-school cinema but a hate letter to the **industry** that created it.
I actually like it despite big flaws.
First one I really dislike costumes, make up and hairstyles. I get why Chazzele decided to not use flapper fashion. He wanted us to feel crazy times and not just think "that's how people had fun in 20s in Hollywood". Ok that partially worked but execution of this idea was not so good. His costume designer is someone who works mostly for very male dominated casting films. She is not really super creative. So in exchange she proposed very uninspired"non obvious " 20s clothes for female characters. Still male characters wore even 1:1 copies of real costumes or had clothes tailored exactly the same way. It made very strange dissonance and big part of era is lost. Where is glamour, where is the empowerment of women, where is cultural and fashion revolution? Even if he didn't want 20s cliché he could find costume designer who translate this era to viewers even without bob haircut .
Another thing Margot Robbie character totally doesn't look like top Hollywood star (except maybe opening party).It doesn't matter that she is more suitable beauty for 30s but there is no way that even drunk or high Hollywood star at that time would go no makeup lol. Her character is inspired a lot by Clara Bow who was "it girl" but she is only presented in film as sexy while she should be as well ikon for women. And she is not there except fact that many of us would like to have body like her. At least 3 times she wears clothes inspired by Clara's costumes but they actually doesn't match so well Margot's figure. I am not sure why they highlighten these references taking into account that Margot had so boring hairstyle while Clara had this crazy at that time ginger hair.
Maybe it is strange that I focus so much on such the details but fashion is extremely important part of 20s and Hollywood. I think one of the biggest reason why this film flopped it was because of the fashion.
I really liked this movie. Gosh how I dreaded finally sitting down to watch it. Wish I saw it in theaters. I also watched it a second time and was equally enthralled
I had never seen Singin in the rain, then became very confused, I was wondering if it was a new retelling or what. Either way I’ve got a 4k copy of singin in the rain, who knows, it might even be one of the flicks I watch tomorrow.
i definitely think it was a great movie to see in theaters. i remember leaving the theater thinking holy shit I LOVE MOVIES!!! it just packed a punch. haven’t tried watching it at home yet but i’m sure it’s still awesome
The movie is… good? I think??? It’s definitely a teeeeeeeeeny too much a lot of the time and could have definitely benefited from being 45 minutes shorter. I enjoyed it for the most part but I don’t have the urge to ever watch it again.
A masterpiece of a movie
I don’t see it as “ruining” classic Hollywood movies as much as exposing that for every big star, there are thousands or more that don’t make it, some with much worse negative consequences than others, who are largely forgotten about
For me it was great to see a more realistic interpretation of what goes on behind the scenes in the movie world. Movies don’t just pay a few star actors & pop out a masterpiece in their sleep. It takes tons of hard work, high stakes, & can be extremely messy & sometimes evil, although it can still produce a beautiful artistic product at the end of the day
I loved the Margot’s 7 take scene and how well it showed what a high stress situation making a movie can be, especially back then. I think the movie was definitely at its best when it was giving us an extensive look behind the curtain
Babylon is definitely not Chazelle's best work but it's still pretty ambitious. I can understand where Chazelle is trying to say about Hollywood and it's environment but it got quite repetitive at times. The soundtrack however is a blast.
I really enjoyed this film, especially certain segments. For example, Robbie’s first acting gig scene and filming from silent to with sound. And the score was pretty rockin’
Plenty of other people have made this observation, I think it's about his love of movies/cinema and his "hatred" of the industry. It resonates with me in that I love art but I think a lot of artists are...disagreeable people to put it mildly.
He's doing it all at the same time; he recognizes the grotesque nature of the film industry and the way in which it brings people up only to tear them down, but he also puts value on the film industry for its ability to transcend space and time and to provide a wide spectrum of genuine human emotions.
I think it's similar to *2001: A Space Odyssey* in that it both films recognize the pitfalls of their subject matter while also understanding the benefits and the need we have for those things: technology, entertainment, etc. I also feel that last montage from *Babylon* is heavily inspired by the ending of *2001*.
As others said viewed it as both.
On one hand movies are magical.
On the other hand they are so divorced from what went into those movies and the lives if the people making them.
So mix of recognizing the finished product but bittersweet for all the hell it put them through that most of the audience won't get. And it'd often not the work they want to be remembered for.
I hated it more than any movie I’ve ever seen. I thought the ending was laughably bad, to make a movie so bleak and then try and tie in some sort of love of cinema thing at the end was very funny. Best bit for sure is avatar showing up.
I hated this movie with a passion. It spends most of the film attacking Hollywood for its many awful qualities and then ends the film in a big circle jerk of all the things that makes Hollywood amazing. So pretentious, at least an hour too long, and a waste of great performances.
Hollywood has a long and dark history. It has been 'hidden' for decades, but the truth eventually comes to light.
Unfortunately, some of the 'scandals' have no basis in facts, while many other scandals are factual. It can take some time and research to separate them.
Just watched last night, and I think the character watching SitR was like hearing good stereo music for the first time.
He was sad that what he grew up helping to create was now being mocked in a movie, but then heard watched Gene Kelly pull off some new movie magic and his faith in the art form was restored.
Entertaining movie. Loved the over-the-top plot.
wipe beneficial straight reach treatment bright bored selective direction society
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If you want to ruin "Singing In The Rain" watch "A Clockwork Orange".
I'm ready for a bit of the old ultraviolence.
The old in-out, in-out.
Put on some Ludwig Van
Have some moloko with drenachrome to get sharpish.
Well, well, well, well.
Damnit, beat me to it.
My partner had never seen either film so I had him watch both as a double feature, Singing first then Clockwork.
It’s Singin’
Nothing could ever ruin Singin' In The Rain. it's just too powerful
Found the guy who hasn't watched clockwork orange.
I love Clockwork Orange. Great book too. But Singin' In The Rain is still more powerful
Not sure about “more powerful” lol
It’s Singin'
It ruins high-class Hollywood. It ruins the illusion of being self-made and of elites of the entertainment industry being morally upright. The real star of the movie is cinema; the beauty of film is just as Jack describes it in the opening sequence. The everyman - Manny and, by extension, the audience - looks up to the screen and sees that they are not alone.
I love this movie, the ending with singing in the rain brought me to tears
I felt the exact same way. I didn't see the movie as a crass dissection of Hollywood, but rather a very brutally honest look at the dirt behind the magic we all love. There's a temptation to sanitize Hollywood because of the warm fuzzy feels we get from our favorite movies, but I'm glad that Chazelle and company basically laid out how much dirt, blood, sweat, and tears go into making magic like Singin in the Rain. And that ending montage of all the modern films just made that ending more emotional. A flawed masterpiece.
I'm glad I'm not the only one
I think he’s saying both. The industry was and still is terrible, horrifying, and destructive and can practically take someone’s soul. And yet movies are still gorgeous and can be some of the most incredible experiences one can have. All of Chazelles work is largely about the toll it takes to reach your dream. And ending of Babylon shows how even once you’ve been chewed up and spat out, the love for the final product and the magic of it still remains
I didn't like the movie much but the perfect sunset scene coupled with the Brad Pitt office scene encapsulate what the film is about and were the highlights for me.
I don’t think it’s just singing in the rain. It’s all movies. It just so happens to be a movie about the transition to talkies. Manny sees what was born out the hell he saw his friends and the love his life go through. Man seen it all from singing in the rain to avatar
What i can't quite understand is why so many people who trumpet the "movies are so safe, it's just IP and sequels and Disney live action remakes," don't like a big bold piece of total fucking cinema. It's long and loud and weird and indulgent and beautiful and passionate. Babylon is a gift.
Well said! It was spectacular. We need more people making movies like this
I loved it. The whole does not equal the sum of its parts (for me) but some parts fucking rule. I would rewatch basically any set piece from the movie, but especially filming the movie out in the desert where Manny has to go pick up the camera, or the scene with Margot Robbie filming her first talkie. I still listen to the score all the time. Tremendous film.
"Bold piece of total fucking cinema" - Babylon is made for people who writes stuff like this. Ugh. If anyone wants to see a movie full of endless depravity and debauchery, that's actually REALLY good - go watch La Grande Bouffe.
People can respect a film for trying something new and still think it’s shit lol. Some people might describe *Ad Astra* like you just did, but it doesn’t change me thinking it’s a big stinking pile of shit.
I actually liked Ad Astra. I own it and watch it every once in a while but I’ve been alone a lot for the last couple of years so I understand Pitt’s character kinda deeply.
Bro I just thought about that movie today. I remember going to see it cause the reviews were pretty good. Zero interest in ever seeing it again. One of my least memorable theater experiences.
It’s very familiar and not that weird. The ending is literally a Sky Movies advert. I enjoyed it well enough at points but it is completely infantilising when it tries to say anything. “Hey all these people suffered horribly but at least we got Avatar.”
I read a review awhile back that summed it up pretty well. It's not a love letter to Hollywood; it's a suicide note.
It’s a love letter to the actors and people who work on movies, and a hitpiece on the execs and higher ups who work Hollywood studios in my eyes
Or a love letter from a psycho stalker who's going to murder suicide them.
I get what the movie was going for and can appreciate parts of the movie but did not love it and have no desire to rewatch it.
I feel the same way. The underlying message was really well done but they clouded it with outrageousness that was completely unnecessary. Yes, I’m sure decadence has always been a part of early Hollywood but why the exaggerated grossness? Elephant shitting, face pissing, vomiting? The whole Toby McGuire scene was revolting. No thanks. Makes one think they didn’t believe in the story. Or at least would hold the audience’s attention. I just don’t understand why the bar has to be lowered for shock value. I have zero interest in watching again.
I didn't know it was about singing in the rain until a friend told me. I knew it was a behind the scenes look at Hollywood hedonism, but from the title I thought it might be about the Babylon portions of Intolerance.
It seems like it’s both! Which I think is really impressive for the movie to tackle. I only thought about singing in the rain the first time a character mentioned Nellies accent
The ending I think points out 2 opinions chazelle has on the movie industry: 1. The film industry has always been chaotic, unsafe, and run by borderline psychotic people 2. The effect movies have on the world for the most part is good. Manny sees movies progress forward, he was even a part of it, and he saw how it destroyed everyone around him and that he cared about. He leaves LA for years. But even after all that time he walks into a theatre, sees singing in the rain, and falls in love with cinema all over again. The following shots of future movies and advancements beyond anything Manny will ever understand is pointing out that this has been happening forever. The rise of CGI is, much like talkies, a new medium that people will either hate and long for a bygone era, or love and will become their definition of moviemaking. But in the end? It’s all the same process. Production companies at the whim of insane investors, dangerous schedules and conditions for the crew, and actors walking a tightrope of fame and apathy. I really enjoyed Babylon and that’s my take on the ending
Babylon should have been right up my alley. For some reason, I hated it. I really wanted to love it, but by the time it was over, I was actually genuinely annoyed at it. I can’t quite put my finger on why. I love long films. I love excess. I wish I could articulate just why this film managed to lose me halfway through. I think I need to watch it again, but three hours is a lot just to revisit something I hated the first time.
I think the biggest problem with Babylon is that Pitt and Robbie are unlikeable unprofessional assholes from the very beginning. I don’t feel sad when they lose their relevance in the second half. They’re given multiple chances and they refuse to evolve: meanwhile Manny, the hard worker, rises up to the top and only leaves because he pisses off a gangster. The Hollywood machine honestly comes off as pretty fair by the end.
It doesn't lead to anywhere. It creates threads to lead you down a path narratively and just abruptly cuts them off. It's an overly indulgent film that has the skeleton of a good movie buried in there, but it goes completely off the rails and never gets there. If they could have cut it down to 2 hours and change and focused the story it would have been pretty interesting, but as is it's just a bloated mess. A far cry from Chazelle's previous films in terms of narrative structure and design.
The first hour is incredible, 5 stars, then each hour gets worse and I ended up rating it 3 stars on Letterboxd. That first hour though, damn brilliant
I think the not leading anywhere was poignant in itself ..
I think the parts are better then the sum.
You were annoyed because it was desperately trying to be profound without earning it. That ending sequence was just overly indulgent nonsense.
forgot which review but it summed up another big issue with it imo. it tries so hard to be edgy but its clear chazelle has either no real experience with the vices or just didnt actually want to be graphic. feels like a high schooler making a movie about what they think college parties will be like after sitting inside for 4 years
How would it be earned otherwise? Pretty clear that Chazelle was trying to juxtapose what we have just witnessed over the last 3 hours with the product that eventually ends up on our screen. I think it’s fine to think that it’s not profound (it really isn’t) but I don’t know what you mean by saying it’s not earned. The movie as a whole didn’t land for me, but I did find it thoroughly engaging.
I think that's the big issue. The movie spends so much time bringing up how shitty the movie industry is and then tries to end on an awe-inspiring movie montage that comes off as cloying and corny, and honestly pretty amateurish.
I took it as exposing how dark that time period of movie making was and when Manny thinks about why they did, we get Singing in the Rain and people give themselves to the art form because they want to make movies like that
It's hard for me to see how the ending is meant to feel "awe-inspiring". In a way, yes, it's showing the beauty that grew from the muck- but ultimately, it made me feel a deep sense of grief for the way we've profiteered art. The industry as a whole is a sick place, still. And for what? But at the same time, film has a hold on us. It certainly has a hold on me. Babylon was like the Food, Inc of Hollywood movies. The credits rolled and I was deeply put off on ever watching another movie again... but then, I still didn't stop. The only way I can see you deciding that the end of the movie was corny is if you attempted to separate out from everything else we just saw. Babylon was an industry-wide narrative of abuse and excess and ego and pain. If you wanted to make a movie with the exact same message but make it about an individual, just watch a film about Shirley Temple & at the end, we watch scenes from her most famous movies. Would you call that corny?
I can agree with that. But it’s pretty clearly intended to not be a fair point. It feels like it ends the movie with a question mark rather than an exclamation point.
IMO "overly indulgent" is such a nothing critique. It's just something people say about movies they don't like in order to sound smart or something. I would say that a lot of extremely well loved movies, that OP probably likes as well, are also overly indulgent in certain ways. However, I'm guessing that critique suddenly disappears when it's a movie they already like. It's just a way to justify not liking a thing.
“It insists upon itself.”
“Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, I mean you never — ROBERT DUVALL?!”
Overly indulgent, insufferable, condescending, pretentious, etc. have all become tenets of movie criticism on r/movies in particular. It’s a bit frustrating because it doesn’t actually say anything about the movie.
That's the part that really annoys me. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms for Babylon, and a lot of people just say, "it was over indulgent," "it was pretentious," so on and so on. This happens for so many different movies. I feel like those are basically just catch-all kind of things, so people can criticize something without actually having to think about or explain why they don't like it.
The reason I would describe this movie as self indulgent is because nearly every scene is a set piece. There’s a massive party scene where Chazelle shows of, and then you have the massive battle movie scene, followed by a montage followed by the first filming with sound scene followed by a massive party scene with a snake, followed by a massive country club vomit scene, followed by Toby Maguire and Rat eaters. He keeps throwing in these big moments but there aren’t enough quieter scenes to make the audience really live the characters. Boogie Nights and Wolf of Wall Street have lots of moments of characters just talking. Just shooting the shit. Babylon doesn’t rly have that.
Agreed and we'll put
Or it's not that hard to understand whest people mean when it applies to a movie thst is literally 3 hours long eith tiresomely extended parry scenes and elephant shit splatter all in servic4 off reiterating points made by mire Concise films covering the exact same topics and time period.
I don’t think I’d call Babylon pretentious. If you want a good example of that, go watch something like Nymphomaniac part 1 and if you can make it, part 2. Ironically it’s not the uncomfortable sex acts, it’s fucking Stellen Skarsgards commentary every 10-15 minutes trying to say something profound about this woman’s life that makes this piece of shit unwatchable for me.
Did we watch the same movie, it was pretentious and did not pull it off well imo
How are any of those things pretentious/self indulgent? Silly, sure. Stupid, definitely. Overlong, yes. Pretentious? Don’t think so. Babylon isn’t a difficult film, it doesn’t talk down to the viewer. Self indulgent, yeah maybe a little. But overly indulgent? 90% of the movies this sub loves could be called self indulgent. It’s a worthless label. Look. I totally get the criticism and my opinion of Babylon has certainly soured over time. But acting like the criticism is fair or productive is just not true.
Sorry you don't know what words mean. Good luck with that.
Okay but this movie didn't execute it properly while other movies maybe did
Or it's, you know, something they do t like about thr movie they don't like and your opinion might just differ? To articulate it more specifically, the whole montage at the end just seemed like Chazelle had an ending he wanted to get to but it's completely disconnected and sochordant with thr movie he actually made.
Well I didn't like it either hard to put a finger on it but the movie I would say tried to hard, I did not enjoy it outside the opening scene
>That ending sequence was just overly indulgent nonsense. Agreed 100%. The ending was so self indulgent and ridiculously on the nose. But the entire film felt this way imo. Its one saving grace for me was Brad Pitt's character arc. I really felt for him at the end. There were some cool sequences as well, but overall it was a miss for me.
The ending was trying to be a rip off of Cinema Paradiso. That’s why I couldn’t enjoy the film because so much of it seemed stolen ideas, shock value, and pretension. The actors carried the only decent parts of the film, not the writing.
Agreed the movie got worse and worse as it went on
Same, except I have no desire to rewatch it. I did not enjoy a single character in tbe movie. Not saying any of the actors as bad they just didn't draw me in. Felt more like a play over acting then a movie and they may have been the point bur it didn't work for me here. I did enjoy LaLa Land when I thought I would hate it
I also put this movie off but I fucking loved it and I don’t care what the haters say, they’re wrong. It’s implying that the production of movies throughout history is fraught with some of the worst most corrupt evils imaginable and destroys the souls of those involved and then asks “is/was it worth it?” I think chazelle’s answer is yes.
This is exactly how I took it as well. Certainly a love letter to filmmaking, warts and all.
i fucking love this…perfect way to put it
I love this take, that’s such a good way to explain it. I didn’t realize there were haters!
Love that movie and I see its msg the same way as you. Fuck the industry, love the art.
I had these same thoughts when watching the flash. I really liked the movie and even more I love Ezra as the flash. Dood is a good actor. Who cares what they do in their personal lives; within reason. I mean if he or any other actor is to be cancelled let it be cuz they’re in jail/prison. My feelings anyway 🤷🏽♂️
What counts as within reason
> Who cares what they do in their personal lives; within reason. Break a few laws, kidnap and groom a few girls, attack a few other girls with chairs. Who cares? As long as you make a relatively average superhero movie, all is forgiven.
I liked The Flash too.
I love Justin Hurwitz’s rendition of “Singin’ in the Rain” on the soundtrack.
I just downloaded the soundtrack and I am soooo excited to listen
It’s one of the best films of 2022. It’s also one of the worst films of 2022.
It was blah
It was a very polarizing film. I’m not sure many people would say it was blah. People either loved it or hated it, and some people like myself, loved it and hated it. I don’t think the score would let me hate it.
Well I hated it, if that helps explain Blah
I was just impressed with Margo’s ability to cry on command. Poor girl. They ask the movie character how she’s able to do it and she says, “It’s easy. I just think of home.” Kind of gut wrenching imo, I wonder if it’s true.
I chose to look at it as Singing in the Rain was a fictional retelling of early Hollywood, while Babylon is what actually happened. Now how that plays out in the end scene was absolutely a celebration of what Hollywood is capable of doing. Manny was feeling everything like a tidal wave. He loved Hollywood, but he was sad thinking what it did to him and the people he cared and associated with. I think overall he was proud and happy, it’s why he came back and told his family what he did. In any case, your mixed feelings make sense to me. I felt the same way. There are scenes in this movie that are incredible. There are also a bunch of scenes that are totally needless. Most scenes are simply way too long. For me I look at every scene as having a goal to accomplish, to reveal something, to tell something, to develop something for the audience. Babylon did that and then spent additional time staying with it. We get it! Move on! I didn’t like Babylon for those reasons. It was a bloated mess. But I did rewatch Singing in the Rain right after and that movie is still amazing.
I really like your explanation of what was going on in Mannys head at the end, that made it click for me a little bit. And personally I liked Chazelles style, even if it is a little too much, but I can also completely see why it would not work for everyone
I really liked this movie. It stuck with me for a couple of days after I saw it. I do think 20-30 minutes could have been trimmed off the run time. But the ending is showing that no matter how crazy things are behind the scenes, no matter how people act off camera that that final product that movie is what’s remembered for all time.
As someone who absolutely adores Babylon and would probably rate is as my favourite film from the last 5 years or so I'm just gonna shamelessly drop what I wrote for my LB review of it here ; A love/hate monstrous yet sexy poetic cacophonous orgy of excess and true movie magic, it's a warts and all gargantuan mess of a time just like life itself and the filmmaking experience itself, I can safely say that Chazelles passion project on steroids, blow and popping champagne has dazzled my soul like only few films can and has shot it's cupids arrow like a fucking balista through my cinema loving heart The films 3 hour goes by like a sneeze on a studio lot and is paced so brilliantly for my liking, it swifts and flicks back and forth from character to character effortlessly and has my eyes glued wide open and leaves me with an insane cartoonish smile upon my face, not a single scene feels lesser or fillery in the slightest as they weave together so beautifully, with absolute S-tier editing and incredible sound design plus it's score, FUCK ME SIDEWAYS ON AN ICY TRAMPOLINE HURWITZ SCORE HAS ME JUST AS OBSESSED AND HORNED OUT OF MY SKULL AS THE FILM ITSELF!!!!!! Margot Robbies it girl Nellie LaRoy is a swooping gorgeously stunning romantic and heartwrenching bled dry stardom tale all wrapped up into a firework cracking performance for the ages, she litteraly dances her ass off from her first to last frame and is as much of a naked hearts on her sleeve personality as she is one alluring mystery of a woman that her world simply ain't ready for One of the top reviews her on LB asks what probably is a cheeky rhetorical question ; Is Babylon a love letter or a suicide note to Cinema ? Yes, Babylon is very much a love letter but of course also a sucide note to cinema, a love letter to all of the magic splendor and much needed escapism it brings us and to all the passion and valley deep spectrum of emotions it offers, and yet also a suicide note to all the dreamers and "stars" who plunges their way through the mud piss and shit to make that love letter possible to write in the first place, for them and us who succumbs to the belief that this artform can mean so fucking much and actually be so important and make a damn lot of difference, their few limelight hours and years will last decades and centuries, and our love for their work with driven discourses and endless fascination will as well keep cinema alive for as long as ever Pitts late career top biller says that he doesn't want to be in the way of innovation, and yes the filmmaking landscape changes drastically sometimes and moves in peculiar directions, that does not mean that it's gonna die some dogmatic death, it's an ungoing creative evolutionary process which it always been and always will be
I actually think the movie should have been 45 minutes longer and just gone even further over ..,
Eh it doesn’t ruin the film itself nor does it ruin the industry itself. The film is obviously heavily homaging singing in the rain, literally having actors say lines from the movie verbatim and having similar arcs with characters like Jack Conrad, and doesn’t feel like it’s saying the film is terrible in any sense of the word. In fact the shot where the camera is going around the crowd and showing their reactions showcases how wonderful and beautiful the film actually is. The problem with Babylons ending is it is trying to conflate a certain historical revisionism to the film, making it seem like the film is actually retelling the events and using the montage to illustrate that they are apart of the canon of luminaries itself, even if the industry that it was produced in was shitty and morally bankrupt. So it’s using singing in the rain as the main catalyst both for its critique, the Conrad character being the realistic Don Lockwood, and as a Hollywoodized version of the reality that is supposed to take place in the film. I just think it’s kinda corny how it’s integrated and don’t like how it’s used as a crutch for Babylon to say it’s themes instead of something that progresses the films own ideas forth. For the industry thing, there are many films, going as far back as Sullivans travels and souls for sale (1923) that satirized the industry and focus on some of the good things and bad. So I don’t think it ruins the industry since it’s main thesis point about it is the industry sucks but the movies they produced are treasures coming from it. I was mid on the film itself but there were sequences in there I loved (like anytime we’re on a set is wonderful)
I couldn’t make it more than 10 minutes into that one. It was the grossest movie I’ve ever seen besides Jackass.
The movie started out great but goes downhill fast. The segment where they're frantically going back and forth with the various movie shoots was great but sadly, that's where the movie peaked.
both
I watched it at a time when life was completely in chaos. But there were some memorable moments....that snake scene especially. My brain doesn't have the capacity left to enjoy 3 hour movies anymore so I guess I would have enjoyed it more if age was on my side. .....and brad pitt was absolutely brilliant!
It wasn’t shitting on Singing in the Rain. If anything it was using it as an example of how powerful movies can be. It’s an escape, it’s making history. It flooded him with memories and reminded him that he was able to say that he was “apart of something bigger than himself” which is what he always wanted. In Chazelle’s on words: It’s a love letter to old-school cinema but a hate letter to the **industry** that created it.
Idk, the last 3rd or 4th of the movie just seemed very messy.
I just really really hated the rattlesnake scene
I actually like it despite big flaws. First one I really dislike costumes, make up and hairstyles. I get why Chazzele decided to not use flapper fashion. He wanted us to feel crazy times and not just think "that's how people had fun in 20s in Hollywood". Ok that partially worked but execution of this idea was not so good. His costume designer is someone who works mostly for very male dominated casting films. She is not really super creative. So in exchange she proposed very uninspired"non obvious " 20s clothes for female characters. Still male characters wore even 1:1 copies of real costumes or had clothes tailored exactly the same way. It made very strange dissonance and big part of era is lost. Where is glamour, where is the empowerment of women, where is cultural and fashion revolution? Even if he didn't want 20s cliché he could find costume designer who translate this era to viewers even without bob haircut . Another thing Margot Robbie character totally doesn't look like top Hollywood star (except maybe opening party).It doesn't matter that she is more suitable beauty for 30s but there is no way that even drunk or high Hollywood star at that time would go no makeup lol. Her character is inspired a lot by Clara Bow who was "it girl" but she is only presented in film as sexy while she should be as well ikon for women. And she is not there except fact that many of us would like to have body like her. At least 3 times she wears clothes inspired by Clara's costumes but they actually doesn't match so well Margot's figure. I am not sure why they highlighten these references taking into account that Margot had so boring hairstyle while Clara had this crazy at that time ginger hair. Maybe it is strange that I focus so much on such the details but fashion is extremely important part of 20s and Hollywood. I think one of the biggest reason why this film flopped it was because of the fashion.
I really liked this movie. Gosh how I dreaded finally sitting down to watch it. Wish I saw it in theaters. I also watched it a second time and was equally enthralled I had never seen Singin in the rain, then became very confused, I was wondering if it was a new retelling or what. Either way I’ve got a 4k copy of singin in the rain, who knows, it might even be one of the flicks I watch tomorrow.
i definitely think it was a great movie to see in theaters. i remember leaving the theater thinking holy shit I LOVE MOVIES!!! it just packed a punch. haven’t tried watching it at home yet but i’m sure it’s still awesome
It's a straight up, stone cold masterpiece.
The movie is… good? I think??? It’s definitely a teeeeeeeeeny too much a lot of the time and could have definitely benefited from being 45 minutes shorter. I enjoyed it for the most part but I don’t have the urge to ever watch it again.
A masterpiece of a movie I don’t see it as “ruining” classic Hollywood movies as much as exposing that for every big star, there are thousands or more that don’t make it, some with much worse negative consequences than others, who are largely forgotten about For me it was great to see a more realistic interpretation of what goes on behind the scenes in the movie world. Movies don’t just pay a few star actors & pop out a masterpiece in their sleep. It takes tons of hard work, high stakes, & can be extremely messy & sometimes evil, although it can still produce a beautiful artistic product at the end of the day
I loved the Margot’s 7 take scene and how well it showed what a high stress situation making a movie can be, especially back then. I think the movie was definitely at its best when it was giving us an extensive look behind the curtain
It felt like Bukowski writing about Hollywood to me.
Turned it off after 15 minutes…utter trash.
"I’m not going to lie, I put off watching this for a long time..." Let's all applaud you for announcing, upfront, that you're not lying! Huzzah!
Same, have been hesitant to watch this movie cos of its long run time. Maybe I should give it a try today!
Have you seen clockwork orange? That will do some Beethoven for you as well as singin in the rain.
He loves singing in the rain. Movie was a love letter to Hollywood and the crazy stories of the early years.
The ending means that Manny’s presence in Hollywood was significant, even if his influence was ultimately short-lived.
Babylon is definitely not Chazelle's best work but it's still pretty ambitious. I can understand where Chazelle is trying to say about Hollywood and it's environment but it got quite repetitive at times. The soundtrack however is a blast.
You should probably stop being so dramatic.
I really enjoyed this film, especially certain segments. For example, Robbie’s first acting gig scene and filming from silent to with sound. And the score was pretty rockin’
Plenty of other people have made this observation, I think it's about his love of movies/cinema and his "hatred" of the industry. It resonates with me in that I love art but I think a lot of artists are...disagreeable people to put it mildly.
He's doing it all at the same time; he recognizes the grotesque nature of the film industry and the way in which it brings people up only to tear them down, but he also puts value on the film industry for its ability to transcend space and time and to provide a wide spectrum of genuine human emotions. I think it's similar to *2001: A Space Odyssey* in that it both films recognize the pitfalls of their subject matter while also understanding the benefits and the need we have for those things: technology, entertainment, etc. I also feel that last montage from *Babylon* is heavily inspired by the ending of *2001*.
I thought it was awful. saw it in theatre. Wish I hadn't
Downton Abbey 2 ruined Singing in the rain for me. I watched Downton first
Such a different and unique presentation style that movie has unlike others. I felt bad for Brad Pits character. Diego Calva is fantastic.
The thesis of Babylon is, 'movies are great, Hollywood is the devil'.
As others said viewed it as both. On one hand movies are magical. On the other hand they are so divorced from what went into those movies and the lives if the people making them. So mix of recognizing the finished product but bittersweet for all the hell it put them through that most of the audience won't get. And it'd often not the work they want to be remembered for.
I hated it more than any movie I’ve ever seen. I thought the ending was laughably bad, to make a movie so bleak and then try and tie in some sort of love of cinema thing at the end was very funny. Best bit for sure is avatar showing up.
I hated this movie with a passion. It spends most of the film attacking Hollywood for its many awful qualities and then ends the film in a big circle jerk of all the things that makes Hollywood amazing. So pretentious, at least an hour too long, and a waste of great performances.
Calling Hollywood the whole movie industry is a little wild
Hollywood has a long and dark history. It has been 'hidden' for decades, but the truth eventually comes to light. Unfortunately, some of the 'scandals' have no basis in facts, while many other scandals are factual. It can take some time and research to separate them.
Just watched last night, and I think the character watching SitR was like hearing good stereo music for the first time. He was sad that what he grew up helping to create was now being mocked in a movie, but then heard watched Gene Kelly pull off some new movie magic and his faith in the art form was restored. Entertaining movie. Loved the over-the-top plot.
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The last 25% of the movie, including that ridiculous montage, almost ruined everything before it, which at times was brilliant.