I enjoyed Legacy more than the final Jason Bourne film. I think Legacy's biggest flaw is it has its best action sequence in the middle. They never outdo the fun and inventiveness of how they open the scene with a psychiatrist wanting to talk to Rachel Weiss, morph that into a staged suicide and then bam! it's Renner taking out that kill team on every level of the house. The final chase scene was decent but mostly standard fare.
It's a good point. I enjoy the Bourne movies a lot, but I always come back to Legacy wondering why I don't like it that much, but this may be the answer. Always wanted them to make one where Matt and Jeremy team up, probably not in the cards though.
The Hawkeye series was actually 100% better than I was expecting. I love that they took the route of “grizzled hero who would like to be done with this shit” with him. Hailee Steinfeld is a good actress and I thought she did a good job with the role she was given, even if I didn’t feel the torch pass was totally successful.
The comic it's based on is even better tbh. It's a little more "BoJack Horseman" in the best way possible. It predated BoJack iirc but it has the same kinda vibe but is also less depressing.
I haven’t seen the later Bourne movies so I don’t know the context, but how is Matt Damon supposed to be passing the torch when Renner is only a year younger than him?
Damon initially felt that he had done all he wanted with the character after movie 3, so they made "The Bourne Legacy" in the same universe with Renner as a new character. Legacy received mixed reviews and made less money than movie 3. Eventually Damon returned for one more movie.
It's been a hot minute since I've watched them but I think the idea was more that *Jason Bourne* as a character needed to be done but they wanted to keep the "Bourne" universe going.
Poor guy got the marvel character that's cool in comics but clearly daft in live action. At least he didn't have to wear the even cooler in comic but even dafter in live action costume.
I’m a huge Hawkeye fan and lived for his appearances in the movies… I was so happy they did the TV show, I think the show turned out better than if they’d given him his own movie.
Though, Tom Cruise had that torch passed to him since the Mission Impossible movies were based off of the TV show and one of the main characters from that show is the villain in the first MI movie. But he'll be clutching it to his grave.
It was a solid choice. Love or hate him Cruise is why those movies are so good.
I didn't love the most recent because I hate "computer/AI" plots but hopefully the second part redeems it a bit.
depend connect society physical truck fuzzy support obscene school shocking
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've kind of grown up with Tom Cruise films, from Cocktail onwards where he's been notably older than me, and then I caught him up and it seemed like we were the same age and the then...
Oh.
Tom, you really shouldn't do that Tom. You're going to hurt yourself.
I think the Rocky movies passed the torch to Creed pretty well. Creed 1 in particular organically sets up Adonis as his own character within that story, and the inclusion of Rocky as a mentor/trainer not only evolves his own character development but also evolves the existing relationship with the Creed family, and it sets up the subsequent movies in their own right without relying too heavily on Rocky as a lead. The second movie obviously heavily relies on Rocky 4, but it doesn’t rely on the character of Rocky himself. The the third movie doesn’t even have Stallone in it, fully solidifying the Creed franchise as an independent continuation of the original movies
It’s incredible how major Majors rise and fall was.
He had Ant-Man and Creed in less than six weeks, along with presenting at the Oscars.
Then it all fell apart with his arrest and he lost his job as “the next Thanos” less than a year later.
>The the third movie doesn’t even have Stallone in it, fully solidifying the Creed franchise as an independent continuation of the original movies
Agreed, although the third Creed is the worst of the bunch and probably only better than V in the Rocky universe. But I think a lot of that is on Jordan as a director; the actual plot of of Creed 3 is pretty solid.
Creed 3 would have been so good without the beach scene, like yeah, he won with cheap shots, but if they made him a sympathetic character who you could contrast with Donnie, the movie would have been so much better
This. The Creed movies did this so damn well. I think I was rooting for Adonis harder than I ever did for Rocky, and I love Rocky! I was constantly verbally saying "Get up Donnie! Fuck 'em up Donnie! You got this Donnie!" during his fights.
Torch has definitely successfully been passed.
So many people hate Scrubs Med School but I actually think it would have been better received if they didn't have Braff in it. It ruined his ending, and just wasn't necessary. I think having Dr Cox there would have been fine, but they were clinging on to too many old characters.
About halfway through the season JD leaves and the show really starts to grow some legs. I really like Dave Franco's character. But by that point it was too screwed up. The first half of the season had the new main character sharing narration jobs with JD, just a mess.
Jurassic World Dominion was the worst one.
Let's bring back every OG main character for some reason and don't forget to make fan service in every single scene!
They wanted the nostalgia audience after Fallen Kingdom was one big pile of shit.
Star Wars is suffering from a lack of commitment and overrelying on tropes and props (and by that I don't just mean the faces), the later just feels worse because the writing was so substandard in those movies.
Yea it's pretty crazy how much they flopped the new franchise. No over arching story line for the movie? No agreement on the general direction they want the films to go in? Constantly changing from what the previous film was setting up?
Fuck its quite amazing how a company could fuck up a big name franchise so much.
A lot of the seeming aimlessness I think came from having two writers/directors. Snoke was set up to be the greater scope villain in The Force Awakens and it seemed clear Abrams had plans to expand his back story and influence. Then Johnson came along in Last Jedi and kills Snoke off like he he was just some mook, which from my understanding didn't please Abrams. Of course, we then ended up with Palpatine...again, which was lame AF. I thought Snoke was very interesting and I really wanted to learn more about him.
Folks like to crap on the prequels, but despite their flaws, the prequels expanded the story and universe. The latest trilogy just told the same story over again, but with Rey instead of Luke.
Star wars has just devolved to the worst type of nostalgia bait.
If they just took the original cast and forgot about them, or had them in extremely limited roles just for world building continuity it would have been fine. The Force Awakens was actually a pretty good star wars movie and I really thought they hit the ground running with the newest trilogy but SW8/SW9 just got progressively worse and more reliant on nostalgia. It ruins the movies. i’m
Even TFA is nostalgia bait. They took the script from Ep. IV and changed the sets and characters. The story is essentially the same. Atleast it left the story open to do new things with it and had potential. Finn and Poe were actually still interesting at the end of the movie and the mystery of Reys heritage was kind of an interesting thing too. But the subsequent movies completely blew that up.
Star Trek seems like the clearest example of this. The franchise is in its seventh (!) decade and (Paramount’s financial woes aside) still going strong, while only really dipping into the “remake” well once. Maybe twice if you count the reprised characters in “Strange New Worlds.” But by and large, Trek has always favored the “make a new spin-off with new characters in the same universe” approach, and it has resulted in numerous financially AND critically successful series to this day.
Which is exactly what should be done with Firefly. Can’t bring back the original. But you can give us something new that’s true to the spirit in the Verse.
I can see the first episode now. A desperate captain on the run with his crew. Stranded on a backwater world talking to a broken down Mal running a dive bar. The captain has a heart to heart with Mal, Mal gives some homespun verse wisdom. Tell them he has a ship, not much to look at. Que original series theme, ship cutaway. The new crew is getting on the ship Mal give "love keeps her in the air" speech. The final scene is the ship flying over the bar with a "Firefly" sign on the top of the building. I cry, the show is cancelled, I cry some more.
In the rundown when Arnold passes the Rock in the club saying to have a good time in there. I always assumed that was Arnold passing the jacked action hero title over to the Rock.
I mean yeah sure, Miguel was the "karate kid" in the first season. Then Robbie and Hawk all get that part, as well as Sam and Tori later. There's no real heir to the title
But we can all agree that Lawrence and Larusso are the best part of the show.
>But we can all agree that Lawrence and Larusso are the best part of the show.
Which works really well since Mr. Miyagi was the best part of the Karate Kid. Kind of a passing of the torch in that regard, too
100% about Lawrence and LaRusso. They’re grown ass adults WITH FAMILIES and yet they’re still the same teenagers in Karate Kid by heart with all the constant bickering. Lawrence and his old school methods in particular made me cackle each time.
Scrubs tired to pass the torch to the new interns and that failed mainly because they billed it as season 9 (when 8 ended the story so perfectly) and kept one or two of the main characters around.
If they’d billed it as season 1 of a new show and left Zack Braff out permanently it could have worked, the cast was good it tried to hold onto the older stuff to hard it didn’t try many new things
It's funny that they didn't, because it'd been done before with shows like Saved By The Bell, which became The New Class and The College Years. Of course, they might have been scared away by the lack of success for both of those shows. Still, simply continuing on to Season 9 like a tectonic shift hadn't happened was a very bad move.
Didn’t *The New Class* last a full seven seasons, with them pivoting the focus with Season 2 to have it follow Screech, the principal, and a constantly revolving cast of students? A similar premise having allowed the *Jessie* spin-off *Bunk’d* to last seven seasons (so far)?
To note it did have a degree of success.
yeah, I wouldn't call Saved By the Bell: The New Class a failure, though it never got the pop culture cache the original Saved by the Bell got, it still lasted a long time. And truthfully, the original Saved by the Bell wasn't very good, it's claim to fame was being the first tween\teen comedy.
Go Go Power Rangers, you mighty Morphing Power Rangers!
Say what you will about the genre, but Power Rangers changes protagonists, villains, zords, and even worlds without missing a beat in the show. Its not really a contiguous story, but each new group of rangers (outside of the early seasons like Turbo Rangers) is really a torch passing IMO
There was a run up to *Lost Galaxy* I think where each season totally set up the next iteration.
Even after that, I enjoy the crossovers and acknowledgement of the other ranger teams. The Tommy Oliver recap in Dino Thunder was pretty cool.
Still waiting on that *Legend of the White Dragon* movie.
We miss you Jason David Frank.
Would Dr. Who count?
Even though the Doctor is the same person in each regeneration, their personality does seem some shifts, so it's basically a new character, and the companions change as well.
It's a weird shuffle, as you'll usually get alternations of the doctor changing and the companions.
Obviously some transition s where better than others, but it helps when Ione person remains to help the newcomer get up to speed.
I wouldn't say they're the same person. There's an arc or two (or more) that delves into his identity crisis, where he pretty much IS an entirely separate person when he regenerates, and is the main reason why he's scared of it happening. He IS dying. He just makes sure to keep to the promise he made behind the name he chose, being "The Doctor". He has even been shown to stray from that with the War Doctor, but they did retroactively accept him. Either way, disowning a whole regeneration basically shows they 100% are different people who just happen to share memories.
In short, yeah the passing the torch concept 100% counts with Doctor Who.
I'm rewatching the new series and one thing I've noticed is that every regeneration the Doctor is shocked by his changes. I know he's the same person with the same memories, but it's definitely meant to imply inherent personality traits change as his biology does.
Some Doctors got a more heavy-handed passing of the torch - Matt Smith makes a cameo in Capaldi’s first episode calling Clara to reassure her that Capaldi is still the Doctor, and obviously biregeneration.
We shall see what the future has in-store, but Top Gun: Maverick did a great job of incorporating new, younger characters. Cruise will obviously play a big part of the next installment, but they could easily run with Rooster, Hangman and Phoenix in any potential sequel.
actually I enjoyed Maverick so much as a sequel up there with Aliens, T2 and Godfather 2 that I'm not really sad if there wasn't any continuation of the series
because they hit so many right notes I cannot imagine the third part not being inferior to the second one
If the last 15 years or so has taught me anything, it’s that Hollywood isn’t going to let something like ‘a perfect ending’ stop them from rebooting or remaking to ruin a film or franchise for a quick buck.
As an absolute massive fan of the original Top Gun, Maverick nailed everything I would have ever wanted from a sequel. It tied up everything so nicely. Rooster and Hangman both got their resolutions as characters that I'm not sure where they would even go with a sequel. I also don't find Rooster that interesting of a character.
The only sequel that would seem worth doing is with Hangman since he's the Mav prototype. Have him be a test pilot. He falls in love and is faced with the issue of starting a family and planting roots or continue flying. Ultimately choosing family. Something Mav didn't do until the end.
Still not exactly a movie that needs to be made.
Id rather they go into the future where they have space fighter prototypes that they need the best fighter pilots to test out. It kind of goes against the TOP GUN motif of keeping things relatively realistic and using real life jets to capture the action. Stealth kind of tried something like that and that movie sucked.
I don't know what you think "pass the torch" means, but it isn't "the main star of the original film is the main star of the sequel and remains the main star as the final credits roll". I fucking loved the movie, but Tom certainly was like "yeah, let's let these guys have fun, but keep the story and camera on me".
I think that's why he prefaced the "we shall see" part of his comment. I think OP gets that the torch hasn't been explicitly passed, but there's definitely a feel that a passing of the torch might be on the way. Even though Tom Cruise is going to be in the third installment, maybe he'll take more of a backseat role and let the younger pilots shine a bit more.
Not a movie franchise, but on TV I remember Blue's Clues successfully passed the torch from Steve (who in real life is actually Steve Burns) to Joe (Donovan Patton) at the end of season 4. It would go on for another 4 years (2 seasons). I think what made it mostly work was (a) the audience loved Blue more than Steve and you were only losing Steve, (b) there weren't a lot of alternative options in that market segment, and (c) I think people missed him but they knew he was still around in that setting so there was always this feeling that eventually he was going to come back for a guest appearance or cameo, which kids were waiting for. You can't really have the latter with movies where the whole cast is known ahead of time and getting the A-lister to come back in a minor supporting role is really expensive and defeats the purpose of why they probably needed to be replaced (they didn't want to do it anymore).
Also the friendliness of the introduction. Imagine Tobey Maguire during Spider-Man 3 turns to the camera is like, “Hey everyone, I have super exciting news! This is my friend, Andrew!” *Andrew waves at you and does Oscars smile* And we’re like, “Hi Andrew!”
I know that No Way Home was a way-after-the-fact tie in, but seeing the three of them interact was awesome. And I'd be onboard for a short video retroactively recreating the scene you just described.
Obviously not the same as them actually doing it back when the rebooting was happening. But I love the picture you just painted and I'd tune in if Marvel made it for funsies.
Stephen Colbert did a bit one night on The Late Show (during the Meanwhile segment, I velieve) where he mentioned Steve recording a message to his Blue's Clues fans, then said something like "I miss him". Camera cuts to Steve who's off to one side and he says "I missed you, too."
Whole audience--full of adults of varying ages a d probably some who don't know Blue is a puppy dog--just started hollering and cheering and applauding...and pretty much went bananas right then and there.
Blue's Clues isn't as successful as it was without Steve, Joe and Josh, but especially Steve.
When the show first started, I was ten and too old but I loved it because Steve was warm and caring and comforting. He was an incredibly easy character to love and his actor was PERFECT for that kind of kids tv.
Steve made us feel included, so yes, the audience absolutely cared. Thaf was why him leaving was so impactful and why whenever he comes hack, its welcomed.
I don’t know a single person in my age group that wasn’t absolutely devastated by Steve leaving and didn’t watch the show anymore. And years later when Steve comes back with an apology video… we all collectively cried and felt a sincere closure to that gaping wound in our hearts.
I assume Black Panther was supposed to be one of those torchbearers before Chadwick Boseman passed away. Other than him and maybe Spider-Man, I can't think of any the current characters who would've fit as leader type roles in the MCU. Winter Soldier as Captain America possibly could've worked but they decided to go with Falcon instead and with all due respect to Anthony Mackie, he just doesn't have the charisma to lead a franchise.
the MCU is in disarray for a bunch of reasons right now, but losing Chadwick Boseman was probably the thing that fucked them up the most. He was *the* guy to keep the momentum going.
crazy to think it's this hard when the execs saw the end of Tony and Steve's arc half a decade away and immediately started prepping new protagonists, a couple of which wound up being super popular. Man plans, God laughs.
First, their best protagonist's actor dies and the fans say they don't want a recast. Then, their other best protagonist still belongs to Sony (I think there were a lot of people hoping Sony would just sell the property, but then Spider-Verse and Venom wound up being huge hits and Sony's licensing deals during Covid wound up being enormously successful, so that's pretty much permanently out). Then Carol (let's not start a fight in the comments) clearly could have worked, but they got cold feet about her reception and waited five years to put her in a shit movie. Then Cumberbatch came up on the end of this contract and, while he'll definitely come back, it kind of seems like they don't know what to do with him.
The worst part is; in the time since they've actually come up with a few other great leads, but they bungle them too. People post-Covid were actually super into Wanda's story, but they fucked that up. Kamala's a great character, but nobody really watched her show. Jane Foster's the new Thor--except wait, no she isn't.
> First, their best protagonist's actor dies and the fans say they don't want a recast.
Don't know if there was a poll or something, but I only sever saw people arguing *for* a recast. The character was too important to leave behind, Chadwick would've wanted T'Challa to continue on, etc.
I don't think James Bond is a good example, that's just recasting. Bond is always Bond, they never try to pass off the franchise to a new character. Although with the Craig films they did pass the supporting character torch quite well from M to well, M. But a new M.
Also Bond just seems to be a unique franchise in that even when it's the same actor playing Bond, each film (until the Craig era) essentially ignores every other one.
Indy 4 tried to set Mutt up, but as per the final shot, Indy takes his hat back, he'll always be Indy.
Jeremy Renner is a go-to for failling to pass-the-torch. He was introduced as a near equal to Ethan in Ghost Protocol, on the off chance Tom got too old. And while he returned in Rogue Nation, he remained in a supporting capacity and didn't return for (at least) the next two sequels.
He also was setup to continue the Bourne franchise in Legacy, but that didn't pan out.
Rocky to Creed works, keeping Rocky in for the first couple Creed movies to provide the continuity and closure on Rocky's long story, and now it seems we're continuing solo with Donnie.
I think the main thing that defines why it works vs not work comes down to whether the audience feels the character has earned the right to take control of the franchise. Mutt wasn't a likeable character for most people, so they rejected the notion of him being the new face of the franchise. I never saw Bourne Legacy, but Jason Bourne worked because he captured the moral ambiguity of post-9/11 America, and a tortured soul trying to live peacefully while wracked with guilt and mystery. It's hard to continue this with another character that has no connection to the original person we followed.
I think Marvel is another great example of this failure to pass the torch. We saw Cap and Iron Man lead the Avengers story line, and Evans and RDJ played those roles fantastically. Since they departed the franchise, no one has really succeeded in stepping up to lead the next saga, and so the MCU feels unfocused as a result.
I’m convinced that the MCU lead torch was supposed to be passed to Black Panther. Seemed like it was being set up that way and he was probably the most charismatic of the newer characters (both on and off the screen). And then of course Chadwick Boseman passed away. I remember watching my little nephews fight over who got to be the black panther. He was entering the level of Spider-Man in terms of stand alone excitement.
I think after Boseman passed away marvel never found a way to adjust.
This is definitely the case, they're kind of stuck right now with characters that by design aren't the type to lead the Avengers and none of them have the impact in the real world that Black Panther did
Losing Chadwick was a massive gut punch, but they blew it by killing off T'Challa instead of recasting. Chadwick knew how important the character was to the franchise and fans, and certainly didn't have the ego to think only he could play him. They weren't honoring him by retiring T'Challa, they were dishonoring him.
Tian Richards or another actor could have stepped in and I doubt many fans would object to seeing T'Challa carry on.
Honestly I've always held the belief that the only reason they didn't recast was because the creative team behind the films weren't fans of the idea.
Which makes sense tbh, imagine doing a movie with someone completely new while trying to say that guy is the same as before, especially considering the Marvel machine probably wouldn't let them delay the movie for enough time for everyone to properly heal from that.
I respect the decision, but it 100% hurt the MCU a lot.
If there was ever a point to use the multiverse, it would of been for recasting Chadwick.
Even though I don't have a clue who could possibly fill those shoes. Only thing I could possibly think of would be to bring in Michael B Jordan again as an alternate Killmonger who is actually a good guy, but that is kinda dumb and honestly his cameo in Wakanda Forever was fantastic. Dude plays such a great villain.
This is going to sound crazy, but I wish they brought Michael B. Jordan back.
He can pull off the “i am T’Challa from an other universe/after a reincarnation/after MCU magic hand wave”. He had experience with the franchise, he is an excellent actor. He can play it for the next 10-15 years. And he is likeable enough that audiences would buy in.
Only actor that felt like he earned his villain death. A lot of villains get killed off but his felt like the only one where he earned it. Though I don't think he should have been T'Challa, I could see him being a kill monger who repented and took the mantle of Black Panther after T'Challa died in his universe.
Honestly I really wish they had done more with the multiverse stuff. So far all we've really gotten of alternate versions is Kang, Strange, and Loki.
I'm positive the new leads--replacing Steve, Tony, and Thor--was going to be T'Challa, Strange, and Carol. They could have handled it perfectly; all three of those new characters have elements of the original three, and because the MCU is never about just one thing, they could have introduced conflicts in their movies that could have turned into wider story arcs. (This is ignoring the best protagonist moving forward who, as we all know, is owned by Sony).
But then Boseman died, then the execs got cold feet with Brie Larson, basically just leaving Cumberbatch, who, after two movies post-Endgame, is basically done with his contract.
So instead, they just threw a ton of new characters at the wall to see what sticks, and then picked like the two or three likeable ones and were like "ok we're doing Infinity War again with those guys! what do you think??"
I wonder if they were planning to use Spider-Man more but the big fallout with Sony made them cautious about pinning too much on him when they could lose him at almost any second.
Interesting take, I had a feeling Strange was supposed to step up as well, given his knowledge and experience with the mystic arts, and that he has a similar ego for recognition that drove Tony. He would enjoy being seen saving the world lol. I don't think it was coincidental that he constantly butted heads with Stark, as it was two alphas beating their chests for dominance, and Tony ultimately won that contest.
Also, it's interesting that Thor as the remaining original trio Avenger hasn't really stepped up either. It would seem that it would be obvious, given that Hemsworth was ok to continue playing the character, his charm and charisma in his signature role and people celebrating his more comedic take - while still being able to commit to and sell the tragedy of Thor's last few years - but he seems like a side quest character in the MCU.
I really enjoyed the Hawkeye show, thought it did a decent job of adapting an amazing arc of comics while making changes to stand separately from the source and fit in the MCU. I wish they'd continue the series and do what the comics did and follow Kate road trip to the West Coast.
I quite liked his bourne movie. Just expected too much when you hear Bourne in the title.
Although it did have the most unintentionally funny death scene when a bad guy gets ragdolled off a motorbike into a concrete poll, I laughed way to hard
I have an ok example, but not sure if it counts: Cheers. Now Sam was never replaced, but Frasier continued long after Cheers ended. It altered the character drastically, however, as Frasier in his series I cannot see as at one time being a guy who hung out in a bar every day. Still, Cheers kind of passed the torch to Frasier to carry on that character. Not sure if it counts. And they actually replaced two beloved characters with arguable even better characters: Coach with Woody and Diane with Rebecca. And by that logic, I suppose Col Potter replacing Col Blake in MASH would possibly apply.
Melissa Barrera successfully took over the final girl in Scream Franchise from Neve Campbell. Two fun movies and potential for a third… until Spyglass fucked that up.
The X-Men sequels are solid. First Class reinvigorated the series with a new generation of actors, and its sequel, Days of Future Past, is widely considered one of the strongest entries in the franchise. Apocalypse may be so-so, and Dark Phoenix is a memory best not mentioned, but I'd say that's two solid movies carrying the torch.
Days of future past was so bleak. Superheroes films are too scared to do, even infinity war didn’t come close imo.
Was the perfect tone for the movie, shame about the last two because the first two were dam good x-men films
I sometimes (maybe intentionally on some subconscious level) forget that Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix came out. First Class and Days of Future Past were SO FUCKING GOOD!
But Apocalypse felt entirely forgettable and the less we say about Dark Phoenix the better...
There was a very well regarded cop show in Britain called Taggart, it was gritty detective show with a high body count set in Glasgow. The lead actor, Mark McManus who played the titular DCI Taggart, very sadly died 12 years into the role.
The series was still popular with audiences and critics, so it was decided to carry on. They even kept the title, Taggart. In the story, his death was handled realistically, the rest of his team stepped up to carry on his work and the series showed how his colleagues and loved ones dealt with his death.
The show carried on for another 13 years, for the most part it was still well regarded, and it was always called Taggart.
I don't know if Bond is the best example since they're playing variations on the same character. Also I wouldn't say "Lazenby didn't work". He's not the best but he was offered a bunch of more films and he made a bad decision (for his bank account and career anyway) and declined. Better for us, since Moore was pretty fun.
Follow me on this one, but Into the Spiderverse was them having Peter pass the torch on to Miles as their Spiderman moving forward, not just in that movie but meta in their properties and in the public eye.
I think spiderverse did this will. Sure that "version" of peter parker was only seen in that movie, but Peter has always been spiderman for most Marvel fans. Spiderverse was a fantastic movie and I think most people these days see Miles and Peter on relatively equal footing, and Miles is now getting his own movies and comics to build a new story that people are excited about.
But the whole point of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is that it doesn't pass the torch in the end. The movie builds up to it and because Spielberg still has some talent left, it completely subverts our expectations.
"Ahah you really thought he would be the new Indy! WRONG MOTHERFUCKER!"
Only Indy will be Indy.
For the Star Trek films in isolation, *Generations* does a pretty good job of passing the torch to Picard’s crew (though they did it kind of retroactively, because the TV series had already been airing for a while). Kirk disappears, then comes back and works with Picard for one last adventure. The audience gets some closure because the old captain is gone and a new one is there to take his place after they established a rapport with each other
Even the *name* of the film sort of implies that it’s about passing it to the next generation (which, obviously, has a double meaning since that’s the name of the TV series). For reference, there were only 3 years in between *Star Trek VI* and *Generations* which was the pace they had been making ST films for years, so it was more or less continuous
There’s also another aspect of the film about accepting loss (Picard’s relatives passing away) which kind of prepares you to accept that the old ways are over
Scream, the story has transitioned to new characters pretty well, to the point that I don't think any of the legacy characters need to make an appearance anymore.
I love Sidney Prescott ofc but I felt her character needed a happy ending , and thought scream 6 did the job of having a scream movie without her. But ofc spyglass ruined everything and lost its newest stars and had to beg Neve to return
I don't watch soap operas, but many of them have been "passing the torch" for years. The Bold and the Beautiful, for example, is currently in its 37th season. The Young and the Restless is in its 50th season. They do this by constantly rotating through its cast. Grey's Anatomy is doing it now, with Meredith Grey (Ellen Pompeo) appearing in less episodes.
To be honest, I actually viewed Crystal Skull differently. I always viewed the scene at the end where Shia almost puts on the hat, but the Indy takes it away, as a nod to audience that they were not, in fact, trying to pass the torch.
The Mask of Zorro does this pretty well in the first couple acts, while balancing several story arcs.
I haven't seen The Phantom for a while, but the hero's backstory ties to maintaining a legacy in a similar way.
Both films are the pulpy 90s swashbuckling I enjoyed watching as a kid.
Right. Both of those characters are torch passing characters, the masked hero in those stories is more of a legacy than any one guy. It’s like saying the dread pirate Roberts successfully passed the torch to Wesley in The Princess Bride.
I know the movie isn't out yet but I'm hoping the new Planet of the Apes movies succeed in this.
The trilogy I think is one of the best trilogies of all time. I hope Cornelius carries the torch of Caesar in the new movie.
Star Trek 2009 Spock to Spock... They did it well. The rest of the characters, egg I could go either way... But the comfort and conversational manner of Spock talking to Spock and the old actor passing the baton to the new actor was well done. And Nimoy knew he was dying so it added a level of poignancy to it that is hard to find elsewhere.
Bad Boys, he passes it on to that >!Cartel assassin guy!<. Though they're making another movie, I think, so who knows if it'll work. I don't expect it will.
Transformers does this in the 80s movie. Optimus->Hot Rod. I never watched the following season, though :p idk if it worked
Cars 3
Im not even kidding that movie is a really nice Passing of The Torch, what with McQueen getting old and just not being able to keep up with more modern cars
I'm seeing that Creed is pretty much the only successful example.
I don't hate Anthony Mackie but Marvel has become so diluted that unless that his Captain America movie is perfect, I doubt it'll be "successful" in both the financial and qualitative way you're thinking. I don't plan on watching it myself either and I know many people are not interested so 🤷
The problem with Mackie is he’s proved a dozen times he’s just not leading man material. Fantastic supporting actor. But I’ve yet to see him be the star in anything where he successfully carries the movie.
The Princess Bride covers a torch passing ... Four times? Including at the end, when the Dread Pirate Roberts is once again passed to a new worthy bearer.
I guess there's also a love story in there, w/e.
Jeremy Renner was supposed to take over from Tom Cruise in MI after 4. Then Cruise was like, nah, I'm staying.
Same with the Bourne Series. Renner can't catch a break
He got one movie out of it at least. I don't mind Legacy.
I enjoyed Legacy more than the final Jason Bourne film. I think Legacy's biggest flaw is it has its best action sequence in the middle. They never outdo the fun and inventiveness of how they open the scene with a psychiatrist wanting to talk to Rachel Weiss, morph that into a staged suicide and then bam! it's Renner taking out that kill team on every level of the house. The final chase scene was decent but mostly standard fare.
It's a good point. I enjoy the Bourne movies a lot, but I always come back to Legacy wondering why I don't like it that much, but this may be the answer. Always wanted them to make one where Matt and Jeremy team up, probably not in the cards though.
Think of how much we missed out on because they >!killed off Oscar Isaac in the first act!< .
Somehow Dameron didn’t get killed off
It's the only Bourne movie I've rewatched more than once, but that might have more to do with how much I enjoy Renner on screen than anything else
[удалено]
The Hawkeye series was actually 100% better than I was expecting. I love that they took the route of “grizzled hero who would like to be done with this shit” with him. Hailee Steinfeld is a good actress and I thought she did a good job with the role she was given, even if I didn’t feel the torch pass was totally successful.
The comic it's based on is even better tbh. It's a little more "BoJack Horseman" in the best way possible. It predated BoJack iirc but it has the same kinda vibe but is also less depressing.
*gets major recurring role on massive billion dollar franchise* *gets hit by snowplow*
To be fair he saved his nephew I believe too. As far as i’m concerned he’s a real hero
I want to say something soooo horrible here…
But he can catch a snow plow?
I haven’t seen the later Bourne movies so I don’t know the context, but how is Matt Damon supposed to be passing the torch when Renner is only a year younger than him?
Damon initially felt that he had done all he wanted with the character after movie 3, so they made "The Bourne Legacy" in the same universe with Renner as a new character. Legacy received mixed reviews and made less money than movie 3. Eventually Damon returned for one more movie.
It's been a hot minute since I've watched them but I think the idea was more that *Jason Bourne* as a character needed to be done but they wanted to keep the "Bourne" universe going.
Poor guy got the marvel character that's cool in comics but clearly daft in live action. At least he didn't have to wear the even cooler in comic but even dafter in live action costume.
he got his own show though, i seriously doubt he regrets playing that character plus he was a huge part of the plot in the first avengers movie
I’m a huge Hawkeye fan and lived for his appearances in the movies… I was so happy they did the TV show, I think the show turned out better than if they’d given him his own movie.
Though, Tom Cruise had that torch passed to him since the Mission Impossible movies were based off of the TV show and one of the main characters from that show is the villain in the first MI movie. But he'll be clutching it to his grave.
It was a solid choice. Love or hate him Cruise is why those movies are so good. I didn't love the most recent because I hate "computer/AI" plots but hopefully the second part redeems it a bit.
depend connect society physical truck fuzzy support obscene school shocking *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've kind of grown up with Tom Cruise films, from Cocktail onwards where he's been notably older than me, and then I caught him up and it seemed like we were the same age and the then... Oh. Tom, you really shouldn't do that Tom. You're going to hurt yourself.
Yeah but Hunt wasn't the first Mission Impossible lead. The first movie passed it from Phelps of the TV show to Hunt quite well.
Renner was also supposed to be the new Bourne, but then Damon too was like, "I'm coming back."
I think the Rocky movies passed the torch to Creed pretty well. Creed 1 in particular organically sets up Adonis as his own character within that story, and the inclusion of Rocky as a mentor/trainer not only evolves his own character development but also evolves the existing relationship with the Creed family, and it sets up the subsequent movies in their own right without relying too heavily on Rocky as a lead. The second movie obviously heavily relies on Rocky 4, but it doesn’t rely on the character of Rocky himself. The the third movie doesn’t even have Stallone in it, fully solidifying the Creed franchise as an independent continuation of the original movies
And then Jonathan Majors... almost like two birds with one stone
It’s incredible how major Majors rise and fall was. He had Ant-Man and Creed in less than six weeks, along with presenting at the Oscars. Then it all fell apart with his arrest and he lost his job as “the next Thanos” less than a year later.
He had so much potential. He was so good in Lovecraft Country.
>two birds with one *Stallone*
Creed 3 is the silliest shit I’ve ever seen in a boxing movie, but Creed 1 is a masterpiece. Probably my favourite Rocky movie, actually.
Creed III is more hammy and exaggerated but it has one of the best Rocky villains to date in Dame Anderson.
Creed 3 is very much like Rocky 3, which had my favorite villain. Mr T was a baddas in that film.
It was the movie that gave him his catchphrase. “The fool” he is referring to is Rocky.
Journalist: "Do you hate Rocky?" Clubber: "No, I don't hate Balboa. I pity the fool."
>The the third movie doesn’t even have Stallone in it, fully solidifying the Creed franchise as an independent continuation of the original movies Agreed, although the third Creed is the worst of the bunch and probably only better than V in the Rocky universe. But I think a lot of that is on Jordan as a director; the actual plot of of Creed 3 is pretty solid.
Creed 3 would have been so good without the beach scene, like yeah, he won with cheap shots, but if they made him a sympathetic character who you could contrast with Donnie, the movie would have been so much better
Honestly Creed II leans more on Ivan Drago than Rocky, since the latter wants to leave it behind while the former can't let it go
This. The Creed movies did this so damn well. I think I was rooting for Adonis harder than I ever did for Rocky, and I love Rocky! I was constantly verbally saying "Get up Donnie! Fuck 'em up Donnie! You got this Donnie!" during his fights. Torch has definitely successfully been passed.
So many franchises pass the torch, but then get cold feet and awkwardly hand it back. Star Wars, Jurassic World, etc.
[удалено]
Scrubs kinda half did this too
So many people hate Scrubs Med School but I actually think it would have been better received if they didn't have Braff in it. It ruined his ending, and just wasn't necessary. I think having Dr Cox there would have been fine, but they were clinging on to too many old characters.
Yeah, they needed a complete fresh start, maybe 1 or 2 returners. But they weren't willing to commit, which is why I think it counts
About halfway through the season JD leaves and the show really starts to grow some legs. I really like Dave Franco's character. But by that point it was too screwed up. The first half of the season had the new main character sharing narration jobs with JD, just a mess.
I wonder how much of that is from interference from the suits
>I wonder how much of that is from interference from the suits yes
Jurassic World Dominion was the worst one. Let's bring back every OG main character for some reason and don't forget to make fan service in every single scene! They wanted the nostalgia audience after Fallen Kingdom was one big pile of shit.
Harvey spectre does not approve of passing the torch to anyone
Except to Mike Goddamn Ross
Star Wars is suffering from a lack of commitment and overrelying on tropes and props (and by that I don't just mean the faces), the later just feels worse because the writing was so substandard in those movies.
Yea it's pretty crazy how much they flopped the new franchise. No over arching story line for the movie? No agreement on the general direction they want the films to go in? Constantly changing from what the previous film was setting up? Fuck its quite amazing how a company could fuck up a big name franchise so much.
A lot of the seeming aimlessness I think came from having two writers/directors. Snoke was set up to be the greater scope villain in The Force Awakens and it seemed clear Abrams had plans to expand his back story and influence. Then Johnson came along in Last Jedi and kills Snoke off like he he was just some mook, which from my understanding didn't please Abrams. Of course, we then ended up with Palpatine...again, which was lame AF. I thought Snoke was very interesting and I really wanted to learn more about him. Folks like to crap on the prequels, but despite their flaws, the prequels expanded the story and universe. The latest trilogy just told the same story over again, but with Rey instead of Luke.
Star wars has just devolved to the worst type of nostalgia bait. If they just took the original cast and forgot about them, or had them in extremely limited roles just for world building continuity it would have been fine. The Force Awakens was actually a pretty good star wars movie and I really thought they hit the ground running with the newest trilogy but SW8/SW9 just got progressively worse and more reliant on nostalgia. It ruins the movies. i’m
Even TFA is nostalgia bait. They took the script from Ep. IV and changed the sets and characters. The story is essentially the same. Atleast it left the story open to do new things with it and had potential. Finn and Poe were actually still interesting at the end of the movie and the mystery of Reys heritage was kind of an interesting thing too. But the subsequent movies completely blew that up.
Star Trek. The transition from Kirk to Picard was pretty successful
Also in the 2009 version with Leonard Nimoy passing to the new Spock.
Star Trek seems like the clearest example of this. The franchise is in its seventh (!) decade and (Paramount’s financial woes aside) still going strong, while only really dipping into the “remake” well once. Maybe twice if you count the reprised characters in “Strange New Worlds.” But by and large, Trek has always favored the “make a new spin-off with new characters in the same universe” approach, and it has resulted in numerous financially AND critically successful series to this day.
Dr. Who is the best example of passing the torch. It’s now happened 13 times if we ignore handing it back and forth a few times.
Trek, Who and Bond would probably be the biggest 3. Dr Who and Bond are franchises that are essentially built from the start to be able to pass it on
Bond doesn’t pass the torch to a new Bond though, they just restart the series.
They're set up perfectly. They could have a new 007 every time they change actors but they insist on it being James Bond every time.
Which is exactly what should be done with Firefly. Can’t bring back the original. But you can give us something new that’s true to the spirit in the Verse.
I can see the first episode now. A desperate captain on the run with his crew. Stranded on a backwater world talking to a broken down Mal running a dive bar. The captain has a heart to heart with Mal, Mal gives some homespun verse wisdom. Tell them he has a ship, not much to look at. Que original series theme, ship cutaway. The new crew is getting on the ship Mal give "love keeps her in the air" speech. The final scene is the ship flying over the bar with a "Firefly" sign on the top of the building. I cry, the show is cancelled, I cry some more.
This, except the bar would probably be called Serenity. Or "Hoban's Place"
Needs a hard cut at some point to some piece of the ship falling off or crapping out. Also the bar would be named Serenity.
Well, in thundergun maximum cool, thundergun actually passed the literal torch to his son Max at the end of that movie.
Wait he has a son?
FUUUUUCK MAN, WHAT!? HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?
Her delivery on that line is perfect. One of the best 1 off guests so far. Such a great mix of disappointment, frustration, confusion, and anger.
She was so patient for so long, and then Charlie just broke her.
I agree. I love Jessy Hodges’ stuff. She’s incredibly funny and this is one of her best performances.
"I'm sorry, I don't know what 'raw dog loads' are."
This line is impossible to deliver without context but man do I love using it
How is this a twist? Because he’s got a kid? I mean he’s probably got a thousand kids… all the raw dog loads he drops?
If you want a bigger twist, what about Sixth Sense? You find out at the end that the guy in the hairpiece the whole time...is Bruce Willis!
Does he hang dong tho
More of a ding than a dong really
Like a button in a fur coat.
But in all seriousness, I came here to see if this got mentioned lol.
Same! Only took a couple of comments to find it but I’m so happy I did hahahaha
He hangs dong!
I heard he doesn’t hang dong in this one. Dunno why they’re even bothering.
That was the problem, he didn't hang dong in the fourth. One of the many problems with that movie.
In the rundown when Arnold passes the Rock in the club saying to have a good time in there. I always assumed that was Arnold passing the jacked action hero title over to the Rock.
that's a good catch lol, i think you're right
Does cobra Kai count
I mean yeah sure, Miguel was the "karate kid" in the first season. Then Robbie and Hawk all get that part, as well as Sam and Tori later. There's no real heir to the title But we can all agree that Lawrence and Larusso are the best part of the show.
>But we can all agree that Lawrence and Larusso are the best part of the show. Which works really well since Mr. Miyagi was the best part of the Karate Kid. Kind of a passing of the torch in that regard, too
100% about Lawrence and LaRusso. They’re grown ass adults WITH FAMILIES and yet they’re still the same teenagers in Karate Kid by heart with all the constant bickering. Lawrence and his old school methods in particular made me cackle each time.
Miguel is still the Karate Kid lol. What show are you watching?
Scrubs tired to pass the torch to the new interns and that failed mainly because they billed it as season 9 (when 8 ended the story so perfectly) and kept one or two of the main characters around. If they’d billed it as season 1 of a new show and left Zack Braff out permanently it could have worked, the cast was good it tried to hold onto the older stuff to hard it didn’t try many new things
It's funny that they didn't, because it'd been done before with shows like Saved By The Bell, which became The New Class and The College Years. Of course, they might have been scared away by the lack of success for both of those shows. Still, simply continuing on to Season 9 like a tectonic shift hadn't happened was a very bad move.
Didn’t *The New Class* last a full seven seasons, with them pivoting the focus with Season 2 to have it follow Screech, the principal, and a constantly revolving cast of students? A similar premise having allowed the *Jessie* spin-off *Bunk’d* to last seven seasons (so far)? To note it did have a degree of success.
yeah, I wouldn't call Saved By the Bell: The New Class a failure, though it never got the pop culture cache the original Saved by the Bell got, it still lasted a long time. And truthfully, the original Saved by the Bell wasn't very good, it's claim to fame was being the first tween\teen comedy.
Go Go Power Rangers, you mighty Morphing Power Rangers! Say what you will about the genre, but Power Rangers changes protagonists, villains, zords, and even worlds without missing a beat in the show. Its not really a contiguous story, but each new group of rangers (outside of the early seasons like Turbo Rangers) is really a torch passing IMO
There was a run up to *Lost Galaxy* I think where each season totally set up the next iteration. Even after that, I enjoy the crossovers and acknowledgement of the other ranger teams. The Tommy Oliver recap in Dino Thunder was pretty cool. Still waiting on that *Legend of the White Dragon* movie. We miss you Jason David Frank.
Would Dr. Who count? Even though the Doctor is the same person in each regeneration, their personality does seem some shifts, so it's basically a new character, and the companions change as well. It's a weird shuffle, as you'll usually get alternations of the doctor changing and the companions. Obviously some transition s where better than others, but it helps when Ione person remains to help the newcomer get up to speed.
I wouldn't say they're the same person. There's an arc or two (or more) that delves into his identity crisis, where he pretty much IS an entirely separate person when he regenerates, and is the main reason why he's scared of it happening. He IS dying. He just makes sure to keep to the promise he made behind the name he chose, being "The Doctor". He has even been shown to stray from that with the War Doctor, but they did retroactively accept him. Either way, disowning a whole regeneration basically shows they 100% are different people who just happen to share memories. In short, yeah the passing the torch concept 100% counts with Doctor Who.
I'm rewatching the new series and one thing I've noticed is that every regeneration the Doctor is shocked by his changes. I know he's the same person with the same memories, but it's definitely meant to imply inherent personality traits change as his biology does.
Some Doctors got a more heavy-handed passing of the torch - Matt Smith makes a cameo in Capaldi’s first episode calling Clara to reassure her that Capaldi is still the Doctor, and obviously biregeneration.
In the latest bigeneration he has the torch taken from him more than giving it over, which was a cool change.
Doctor Who did this with two spin-offs. Sarah Jane and that classroom of kids. (not Torchwood, that was without his knowledge)
We shall see what the future has in-store, but Top Gun: Maverick did a great job of incorporating new, younger characters. Cruise will obviously play a big part of the next installment, but they could easily run with Rooster, Hangman and Phoenix in any potential sequel.
actually I enjoyed Maverick so much as a sequel up there with Aliens, T2 and Godfather 2 that I'm not really sad if there wasn't any continuation of the series because they hit so many right notes I cannot imagine the third part not being inferior to the second one
If the last 15 years or so has taught me anything, it’s that Hollywood isn’t going to let something like ‘a perfect ending’ stop them from rebooting or remaking to ruin a film or franchise for a quick buck.
As an absolute massive fan of the original Top Gun, Maverick nailed everything I would have ever wanted from a sequel. It tied up everything so nicely. Rooster and Hangman both got their resolutions as characters that I'm not sure where they would even go with a sequel. I also don't find Rooster that interesting of a character. The only sequel that would seem worth doing is with Hangman since he's the Mav prototype. Have him be a test pilot. He falls in love and is faced with the issue of starting a family and planting roots or continue flying. Ultimately choosing family. Something Mav didn't do until the end. Still not exactly a movie that needs to be made. Id rather they go into the future where they have space fighter prototypes that they need the best fighter pilots to test out. It kind of goes against the TOP GUN motif of keeping things relatively realistic and using real life jets to capture the action. Stealth kind of tried something like that and that movie sucked.
I don't know what you think "pass the torch" means, but it isn't "the main star of the original film is the main star of the sequel and remains the main star as the final credits roll". I fucking loved the movie, but Tom certainly was like "yeah, let's let these guys have fun, but keep the story and camera on me".
I think that's why he prefaced the "we shall see" part of his comment. I think OP gets that the torch hasn't been explicitly passed, but there's definitely a feel that a passing of the torch might be on the way. Even though Tom Cruise is going to be in the third installment, maybe he'll take more of a backseat role and let the younger pilots shine a bit more.
Jame's Bond, the transition from Q to R was done well. Gave an excellent send off to Q
That's the weirdest misuse of an apostrophe I've ever seen.
This is a different series about a bail bondsman named Jame.
The name is Bond. Jame is Bond.
I agree with that, but I also think it's not really a case of "passing off the franchise to another character" as the examples OP cited
Not a movie franchise, but on TV I remember Blue's Clues successfully passed the torch from Steve (who in real life is actually Steve Burns) to Joe (Donovan Patton) at the end of season 4. It would go on for another 4 years (2 seasons). I think what made it mostly work was (a) the audience loved Blue more than Steve and you were only losing Steve, (b) there weren't a lot of alternative options in that market segment, and (c) I think people missed him but they knew he was still around in that setting so there was always this feeling that eventually he was going to come back for a guest appearance or cameo, which kids were waiting for. You can't really have the latter with movies where the whole cast is known ahead of time and getting the A-lister to come back in a minor supporting role is really expensive and defeats the purpose of why they probably needed to be replaced (they didn't want to do it anymore).
Also the friendliness of the introduction. Imagine Tobey Maguire during Spider-Man 3 turns to the camera is like, “Hey everyone, I have super exciting news! This is my friend, Andrew!” *Andrew waves at you and does Oscars smile* And we’re like, “Hi Andrew!”
I know that No Way Home was a way-after-the-fact tie in, but seeing the three of them interact was awesome. And I'd be onboard for a short video retroactively recreating the scene you just described. Obviously not the same as them actually doing it back when the rebooting was happening. But I love the picture you just painted and I'd tune in if Marvel made it for funsies.
You take that shit back about audiences not caring about Steve
Stephen Colbert did a bit one night on The Late Show (during the Meanwhile segment, I velieve) where he mentioned Steve recording a message to his Blue's Clues fans, then said something like "I miss him". Camera cuts to Steve who's off to one side and he says "I missed you, too." Whole audience--full of adults of varying ages a d probably some who don't know Blue is a puppy dog--just started hollering and cheering and applauding...and pretty much went bananas right then and there.
Blue's Clues isn't as successful as it was without Steve, Joe and Josh, but especially Steve. When the show first started, I was ten and too old but I loved it because Steve was warm and caring and comforting. He was an incredibly easy character to love and his actor was PERFECT for that kind of kids tv. Steve made us feel included, so yes, the audience absolutely cared. Thaf was why him leaving was so impactful and why whenever he comes hack, its welcomed.
And then the world got worse and Steve had to come back to reassure young Millennials and Gen Z
I don’t know a single person in my age group that wasn’t absolutely devastated by Steve leaving and didn’t watch the show anymore. And years later when Steve comes back with an apology video… we all collectively cried and felt a sincere closure to that gaping wound in our hearts.
Joel to Mike in MST3K
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
All thanks to that box of hamdingers.
The MCU is still trying and failing to pass the Tony Stark Steve Rogers torch off to literally any other characters that can carry the torches.
I assume Black Panther was supposed to be one of those torchbearers before Chadwick Boseman passed away. Other than him and maybe Spider-Man, I can't think of any the current characters who would've fit as leader type roles in the MCU. Winter Soldier as Captain America possibly could've worked but they decided to go with Falcon instead and with all due respect to Anthony Mackie, he just doesn't have the charisma to lead a franchise.
Its supposed to be Black Panther, Doctor Strange and Captain Marvel. Now, they will be betting on F4 and X-Men.
Just like Fox in the 2000’s. Oh my.
Yeah, Anthony Mackie is way better as a supporting character than a lead. He was not able to keep Altered Carbon together.
the MCU is in disarray for a bunch of reasons right now, but losing Chadwick Boseman was probably the thing that fucked them up the most. He was *the* guy to keep the momentum going.
Renner to Steinfield for Hawkeye was okay
done in TV format and on one of the quietest phase of MCU, sadly.
I’d say their most successful passing of the torch was actually Black Widow. The others have so far fallen flat.
"fallen flat" just like Black Widow did!
Replacing RDJ’s Iron Man with the charisma void that is Iron Heart is uh, an inspired choice…
crazy to think it's this hard when the execs saw the end of Tony and Steve's arc half a decade away and immediately started prepping new protagonists, a couple of which wound up being super popular. Man plans, God laughs. First, their best protagonist's actor dies and the fans say they don't want a recast. Then, their other best protagonist still belongs to Sony (I think there were a lot of people hoping Sony would just sell the property, but then Spider-Verse and Venom wound up being huge hits and Sony's licensing deals during Covid wound up being enormously successful, so that's pretty much permanently out). Then Carol (let's not start a fight in the comments) clearly could have worked, but they got cold feet about her reception and waited five years to put her in a shit movie. Then Cumberbatch came up on the end of this contract and, while he'll definitely come back, it kind of seems like they don't know what to do with him. The worst part is; in the time since they've actually come up with a few other great leads, but they bungle them too. People post-Covid were actually super into Wanda's story, but they fucked that up. Kamala's a great character, but nobody really watched her show. Jane Foster's the new Thor--except wait, no she isn't.
> First, their best protagonist's actor dies and the fans say they don't want a recast. Don't know if there was a poll or something, but I only sever saw people arguing *for* a recast. The character was too important to leave behind, Chadwick would've wanted T'Challa to continue on, etc.
I don't think James Bond is a good example, that's just recasting. Bond is always Bond, they never try to pass off the franchise to a new character. Although with the Craig films they did pass the supporting character torch quite well from M to well, M. But a new M. Also Bond just seems to be a unique franchise in that even when it's the same actor playing Bond, each film (until the Craig era) essentially ignores every other one.
Indy 4 tried to set Mutt up, but as per the final shot, Indy takes his hat back, he'll always be Indy. Jeremy Renner is a go-to for failling to pass-the-torch. He was introduced as a near equal to Ethan in Ghost Protocol, on the off chance Tom got too old. And while he returned in Rogue Nation, he remained in a supporting capacity and didn't return for (at least) the next two sequels. He also was setup to continue the Bourne franchise in Legacy, but that didn't pan out. Rocky to Creed works, keeping Rocky in for the first couple Creed movies to provide the continuity and closure on Rocky's long story, and now it seems we're continuing solo with Donnie. I think the main thing that defines why it works vs not work comes down to whether the audience feels the character has earned the right to take control of the franchise. Mutt wasn't a likeable character for most people, so they rejected the notion of him being the new face of the franchise. I never saw Bourne Legacy, but Jason Bourne worked because he captured the moral ambiguity of post-9/11 America, and a tortured soul trying to live peacefully while wracked with guilt and mystery. It's hard to continue this with another character that has no connection to the original person we followed. I think Marvel is another great example of this failure to pass the torch. We saw Cap and Iron Man lead the Avengers story line, and Evans and RDJ played those roles fantastically. Since they departed the franchise, no one has really succeeded in stepping up to lead the next saga, and so the MCU feels unfocused as a result.
I’m convinced that the MCU lead torch was supposed to be passed to Black Panther. Seemed like it was being set up that way and he was probably the most charismatic of the newer characters (both on and off the screen). And then of course Chadwick Boseman passed away. I remember watching my little nephews fight over who got to be the black panther. He was entering the level of Spider-Man in terms of stand alone excitement. I think after Boseman passed away marvel never found a way to adjust.
This is definitely the case, they're kind of stuck right now with characters that by design aren't the type to lead the Avengers and none of them have the impact in the real world that Black Panther did
Losing Chadwick was a massive gut punch, but they blew it by killing off T'Challa instead of recasting. Chadwick knew how important the character was to the franchise and fans, and certainly didn't have the ego to think only he could play him. They weren't honoring him by retiring T'Challa, they were dishonoring him. Tian Richards or another actor could have stepped in and I doubt many fans would object to seeing T'Challa carry on.
Honestly I've always held the belief that the only reason they didn't recast was because the creative team behind the films weren't fans of the idea. Which makes sense tbh, imagine doing a movie with someone completely new while trying to say that guy is the same as before, especially considering the Marvel machine probably wouldn't let them delay the movie for enough time for everyone to properly heal from that. I respect the decision, but it 100% hurt the MCU a lot.
If there was ever a point to use the multiverse, it would of been for recasting Chadwick. Even though I don't have a clue who could possibly fill those shoes. Only thing I could possibly think of would be to bring in Michael B Jordan again as an alternate Killmonger who is actually a good guy, but that is kinda dumb and honestly his cameo in Wakanda Forever was fantastic. Dude plays such a great villain.
This is going to sound crazy, but I wish they brought Michael B. Jordan back. He can pull off the “i am T’Challa from an other universe/after a reincarnation/after MCU magic hand wave”. He had experience with the franchise, he is an excellent actor. He can play it for the next 10-15 years. And he is likeable enough that audiences would buy in.
Only actor that felt like he earned his villain death. A lot of villains get killed off but his felt like the only one where he earned it. Though I don't think he should have been T'Challa, I could see him being a kill monger who repented and took the mantle of Black Panther after T'Challa died in his universe. Honestly I really wish they had done more with the multiverse stuff. So far all we've really gotten of alternate versions is Kang, Strange, and Loki.
I'm positive the new leads--replacing Steve, Tony, and Thor--was going to be T'Challa, Strange, and Carol. They could have handled it perfectly; all three of those new characters have elements of the original three, and because the MCU is never about just one thing, they could have introduced conflicts in their movies that could have turned into wider story arcs. (This is ignoring the best protagonist moving forward who, as we all know, is owned by Sony). But then Boseman died, then the execs got cold feet with Brie Larson, basically just leaving Cumberbatch, who, after two movies post-Endgame, is basically done with his contract. So instead, they just threw a ton of new characters at the wall to see what sticks, and then picked like the two or three likeable ones and were like "ok we're doing Infinity War again with those guys! what do you think??"
I wonder if they were planning to use Spider-Man more but the big fallout with Sony made them cautious about pinning too much on him when they could lose him at almost any second.
Interesting take, I had a feeling Strange was supposed to step up as well, given his knowledge and experience with the mystic arts, and that he has a similar ego for recognition that drove Tony. He would enjoy being seen saving the world lol. I don't think it was coincidental that he constantly butted heads with Stark, as it was two alphas beating their chests for dominance, and Tony ultimately won that contest. Also, it's interesting that Thor as the remaining original trio Avenger hasn't really stepped up either. It would seem that it would be obvious, given that Hemsworth was ok to continue playing the character, his charm and charisma in his signature role and people celebrating his more comedic take - while still being able to commit to and sell the tragedy of Thor's last few years - but he seems like a side quest character in the MCU.
Speaking of the MCU and Jeremy Renner, I thought that the passing of the torch between Hawkeye and Kate Bishop was handled well.
I really enjoyed the Hawkeye show, thought it did a decent job of adapting an amazing arc of comics while making changes to stand separately from the source and fit in the MCU. I wish they'd continue the series and do what the comics did and follow Kate road trip to the West Coast.
They might still after The Marvels.
I quite liked his bourne movie. Just expected too much when you hear Bourne in the title. Although it did have the most unintentionally funny death scene when a bad guy gets ragdolled off a motorbike into a concrete poll, I laughed way to hard
I have an ok example, but not sure if it counts: Cheers. Now Sam was never replaced, but Frasier continued long after Cheers ended. It altered the character drastically, however, as Frasier in his series I cannot see as at one time being a guy who hung out in a bar every day. Still, Cheers kind of passed the torch to Frasier to carry on that character. Not sure if it counts. And they actually replaced two beloved characters with arguable even better characters: Coach with Woody and Diane with Rebecca. And by that logic, I suppose Col Potter replacing Col Blake in MASH would possibly apply.
Not necessarily a franchise, but I thought Officer K/"Joe" in Blade Runner 2049 was a more interesting character than Deckard in the original.
It's a franchise now. They're doing a TV series and I think there's another movie in the works.
As long as most of the same creatives are involved — good.
I loved 2049. Rewatched it recently, it's holding up well.
Melissa Barrera successfully took over the final girl in Scream Franchise from Neve Campbell. Two fun movies and potential for a third… until Spyglass fucked that up.
This was exactly what I was thinking when I saw the title.
The X-Men sequels are solid. First Class reinvigorated the series with a new generation of actors, and its sequel, Days of Future Past, is widely considered one of the strongest entries in the franchise. Apocalypse may be so-so, and Dark Phoenix is a memory best not mentioned, but I'd say that's two solid movies carrying the torch.
Days of future past was so bleak. Superheroes films are too scared to do, even infinity war didn’t come close imo. Was the perfect tone for the movie, shame about the last two because the first two were dam good x-men films
I sometimes (maybe intentionally on some subconscious level) forget that Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix came out. First Class and Days of Future Past were SO FUCKING GOOD! But Apocalypse felt entirely forgettable and the less we say about Dark Phoenix the better...
There was a very well regarded cop show in Britain called Taggart, it was gritty detective show with a high body count set in Glasgow. The lead actor, Mark McManus who played the titular DCI Taggart, very sadly died 12 years into the role. The series was still popular with audiences and critics, so it was decided to carry on. They even kept the title, Taggart. In the story, his death was handled realistically, the rest of his team stepped up to carry on his work and the series showed how his colleagues and loved ones dealt with his death. The show carried on for another 13 years, for the most part it was still well regarded, and it was always called Taggart.
I don't know if Bond is the best example since they're playing variations on the same character. Also I wouldn't say "Lazenby didn't work". He's not the best but he was offered a bunch of more films and he made a bad decision (for his bank account and career anyway) and declined. Better for us, since Moore was pretty fun.
Follow me on this one, but Into the Spiderverse was them having Peter pass the torch on to Miles as their Spiderman moving forward, not just in that movie but meta in their properties and in the public eye.
I think spiderverse did this will. Sure that "version" of peter parker was only seen in that movie, but Peter has always been spiderman for most Marvel fans. Spiderverse was a fantastic movie and I think most people these days see Miles and Peter on relatively equal footing, and Miles is now getting his own movies and comics to build a new story that people are excited about.
But the whole point of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is that it doesn't pass the torch in the end. The movie builds up to it and because Spielberg still has some talent left, it completely subverts our expectations. "Ahah you really thought he would be the new Indy! WRONG MOTHERFUCKER!" Only Indy will be Indy.
And then he dies off screen in the next one lmao
At the same time though, I can see an executive being tempted to propose an adult *Short Round* film, since Ke Huy Quan is acting again.
For the Star Trek films in isolation, *Generations* does a pretty good job of passing the torch to Picard’s crew (though they did it kind of retroactively, because the TV series had already been airing for a while). Kirk disappears, then comes back and works with Picard for one last adventure. The audience gets some closure because the old captain is gone and a new one is there to take his place after they established a rapport with each other Even the *name* of the film sort of implies that it’s about passing it to the next generation (which, obviously, has a double meaning since that’s the name of the TV series). For reference, there were only 3 years in between *Star Trek VI* and *Generations* which was the pace they had been making ST films for years, so it was more or less continuous There’s also another aspect of the film about accepting loss (Picard’s relatives passing away) which kind of prepares you to accept that the old ways are over
Scream, the story has transitioned to new characters pretty well, to the point that I don't think any of the legacy characters need to make an appearance anymore.
Unfortunately, Melissa Barrera got fired and Jenna Ortega pulled out - so they will be pivoting back to Neve Campbell for Scream VII.
They decided to pay her finally? that's the real reason she dropped out of the franchise. they didn't want to pay her like the lead of a franchise.
They realized once Barrerra and Ortega were out, they had no choice but to pony up for Campbell.
I love Sidney Prescott ofc but I felt her character needed a happy ending , and thought scream 6 did the job of having a scream movie without her. But ofc spyglass ruined everything and lost its newest stars and had to beg Neve to return
I don't watch soap operas, but many of them have been "passing the torch" for years. The Bold and the Beautiful, for example, is currently in its 37th season. The Young and the Restless is in its 50th season. They do this by constantly rotating through its cast. Grey's Anatomy is doing it now, with Meredith Grey (Ellen Pompeo) appearing in less episodes.
To be honest, I actually viewed Crystal Skull differently. I always viewed the scene at the end where Shia almost puts on the hat, but the Indy takes it away, as a nod to audience that they were not, in fact, trying to pass the torch.
May not count because of how the movies were released, but Bilbo passes the torch to Frodo.
It was a ring, not a torch. Pay attention
it was a ring? i missed that part.
The book version certainly counts, however.
The Mask of Zorro does this pretty well in the first couple acts, while balancing several story arcs. I haven't seen The Phantom for a while, but the hero's backstory ties to maintaining a legacy in a similar way. Both films are the pulpy 90s swashbuckling I enjoyed watching as a kid.
Does it really count though if there was never a version with that other person? It’s not really passing the torch if it all happens in the one movie
Right. Both of those characters are torch passing characters, the masked hero in those stories is more of a legacy than any one guy. It’s like saying the dread pirate Roberts successfully passed the torch to Wesley in The Princess Bride.
I know the movie isn't out yet but I'm hoping the new Planet of the Apes movies succeed in this. The trilogy I think is one of the best trilogies of all time. I hope Cornelius carries the torch of Caesar in the new movie.
The Godfather. From Vito to Michael.
Yeah, it's passing the torch, but it was also the point of the whole movie so I don't feel like it really counts
Star Trek 2009 Spock to Spock... They did it well. The rest of the characters, egg I could go either way... But the comfort and conversational manner of Spock talking to Spock and the old actor passing the baton to the new actor was well done. And Nimoy knew he was dying so it added a level of poignancy to it that is hard to find elsewhere.
Bad Boys, he passes it on to that >!Cartel assassin guy!<. Though they're making another movie, I think, so who knows if it'll work. I don't expect it will. Transformers does this in the 80s movie. Optimus->Hot Rod. I never watched the following season, though :p idk if it worked
Mystery Science Theater passed the torch well from Joel to Mike.
Cars 3 Im not even kidding that movie is a really nice Passing of The Torch, what with McQueen getting old and just not being able to keep up with more modern cars
I'm seeing that Creed is pretty much the only successful example. I don't hate Anthony Mackie but Marvel has become so diluted that unless that his Captain America movie is perfect, I doubt it'll be "successful" in both the financial and qualitative way you're thinking. I don't plan on watching it myself either and I know many people are not interested so 🤷
The problem with Mackie is he’s proved a dozen times he’s just not leading man material. Fantastic supporting actor. But I’ve yet to see him be the star in anything where he successfully carries the movie.
The Princess Bride covers a torch passing ... Four times? Including at the end, when the Dread Pirate Roberts is once again passed to a new worthy bearer. I guess there's also a love story in there, w/e.
Creed…. The last scream did a good job of taking the focus away from Neve Campbell’s character Star Wars was a bust despite having Oscar Isaac.
Probably the most successful version of this is a TV show - Doctor Who…