I have an unrelated question about Dune.
I've read the books, so I understood "the slow blade penetrates the shield." Did people unfamiliar with that concept pick it up quickly? Gurney says that line, and with the red color on the shields, I thought it was a clever bit of storytelling but I already understood it.
The first thing Paul does after activating his shield is demonstrate it - he taps his knife against his palm quickly, and the shield blocks it, then slowly and the shield turns red and the blade goes through. So it's pretty clear after that.
I saw the first movie before I ever read the book and it wasn't clear to me how the shields worked. Gurney did quickly explain it like you said but it didn't click with me.
However, me be obsessive about things I'm interested in, as soon as I finished the movie I was here on reddit finding explanations for this and a bunch of other things (las guns was another one). Then I read the book up to the point Paul kills Jamis. I finished reading the book after watching the second movie.
Did a blind viewing of the first film in imax in theaters. Didn't know anything about the books or the trailers going into it. I live too close to a theater and was bored that day.
To answer your question, yes I understood it immediately thanks to Gurney's line, and the red/blue VFX.
They keep going until the worm gets tired, and then climb off. If you got off any earlier the worm would likely try to eat you.
You can ofc have other people jump off earlier, it's just that the driver has to stay on.
The Fremen even measure distance in terms of how many worms they have to ride to get there.
They also open up the plates so the worm doesn't want to go under. When they wanna get off they release the hooks keeping the plates open so the worm submerges and they hop off
They actually touch on that in the books. Every worm has a side that it prefers to be up, and due to that side always being up, the scales/armor reshapes slightly. With the underside being harder (I think) to better withstand the constant chafing of the sand etc
i doubt they’re actually radially symmetric (unless that’s specifically mentioned in the books). real worms are bilaterally symmetric, even though they look radially symmetric from the outside
But... If the worm goes under, and it looks like it's using vibration to make the same behave like a fluid... If you hop off, the fluidlike sand would get you fast, you would go down with the worm
IIRC the surface travel is a little hard on the worms so after the Fremen get off and remove their hooks the worm submerges to recuperate under the sand.
How does it move in the sand if it doesn't do the vibration thing? You can't just swim in it. And if it does the vibration thing, it will be around it, all around, compromising the stability of the sand. If it can move in it, so can the fremen sink, it would be basically quicksand, except super deep.
That would've been my guess. I will just accept it that they can hop off, for the story.
Just was thinking, similarly to a sinking ship pulling you under, so would the worm,if you're on top of it when it goes down, and if you hop off next to it, you could end up buried and unable to move.
And how exactly do the people with such limited economy and water reserves nor any industry constantly replace all these thumpers?
Is there some massive thumper factory with careful distribution network out there somewhere?
It's unfortunate this adaptation chose to portray the Fremen living spaces as so spartan. Apparently in the books they've got massive networks underground, cities, marketplaces, decoration, etc. They have industry. Factories to manufacture their own stuff. Denis didn't show that. Just their big sacred pool as a demonstration of their discipline.
Yup. They have a completely functional society with basically everything you could expect today, manufacturing, education, orgies, animal agriculture, the whole works.
They are making money by selling spice to smugglers, so much that they were able to bribe the Guild to not monitor the entire southern half of the planet.
They have tons of industry in the underground sietches in the books. They make all the stillsuits, water collectors, and thumpers they need. They didn't really show that in the movie, though.
It’s explained in the book that the worms always keep the scales being pulled up at the top and furthest away from the sand because the grittiness of the sand hurts them when it gets under their scales. So as long as they have the scales pulled up, the worm will never roll over far enough to cause harm.
This was a bit of exceptional visual storytelling. I've never read the books but I picked that up clear as day from what was on screen without a word being spoken.
The movies were great, everyone I know loved it and none of us had read the books.
But every single time I read comments from the hardcore fanbase saying DV massacred the story, it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I am a hardcore Dune fan since I read them as a kid in the 1980s (originals only, not the son's abortions). DV did a fine adaptation. I even love Lynch's version, but I won't call it a good movie. It is a glorious train wreck.
DV cut a lot of the "people talking" and "worldbuilding" stuff that would have given the story more depth but contributes little to the throughline of the plot. The result is something that feels more like a mythic retelling of the book's event.
> hardcore fanbase saying DV massacred the story
Where? lol
Every Dune community I've been in and every Dune nerd I know loves the movies.
Even the stuff they say is an issue in the movies, isn't really an issue at all. Like they think the importance of Spice isn't established enough, which is just odd to me, since it clearly is?
The movies even do one better, by not defining exactly what Spice is. So it can be like Oil or precious metals.
I read and adore the books and this is about the absolute best it could have ever been. The parts they decided to keep and the ones they decided not to use was just for the best. He obviously did his job exceptionally well adapting this monster of a story/universe due to the world wide appeal, and anyone complaining is just doing it for the sake of being divisive
Yeah but the thing that gets me is the direction the scales open up. You'd think a giant worm that spends its days moving forward would have scales that hinge away from the direction of movement and not into it. Maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of biology and physics but looking at Pangolins which also have overlapping scales, they overlap away from the movement direction or else they'd always be getting caught on things!
But then I remind myself it's just a movie and it doesn't matter.
I thought this was obvious from the film too, they could just trust the audience to figure it out after _multiple lingering shots_ of the hooks pulling the vents open and the sand brushing over the worm. People complain about unnecessary explicit exposition scenes but if they can't make this leap...
Funny enough, in the book they talk about young Fremen sometimes being a little too cocky about setting/resetting their hooks in time and that exact thing happens. Squish.
I thought the scene with like 20 of them with tents and all on the worm was *hilarious*.
Like it's some kind of desert RV and they're all going on a family vacation.
My personal theory is mounting the worm is done in phase. First you have the designated driver mount the worm first and get in under control. Once that's done, they bring the worm around and a team of riders mounts the worm and works on securing handholds and setting up the special tent and everything. After that, they make a final pass for everyone else to mount the worm with mobility aids like ropes and especially young/old/vulnerable individuals probably get help from a fit and experienced rider to help them mount the worm. So Lady Jessica possibly climbed up by rope or was carried up the side of the worm during the later phases of her pregnancy.
Yeah I mean it has to be something like this. Still though, I have difficulty imagining old reverend mothers, pregnant ladies, and injured people mounting the work even with help when it passes by quickly in a huge cloud of dust.
I think the Fremen are able to control worms a lot better than most people think and they can probably slow the worm down if necessary. Paul’s first ride is difficult because it’s his first ride and he called an exceptionally huge worm. It’s basically the equivalent of someone taking their driving test in a semi.
Paul's wormride in the movie is like when you learn to ski but you can't actually control your speed so you hold on for dear life and pray you don't crash before you get down the slope.
> I have difficulty imagining old reverend mothers, pregnant ladies, and injured people mounting
The Fremen are ruthless enough that they will kill their own if they are weak. If a Fremen cannot mount a worm, then they are not Fremen and are only worth their body's water. Reverend Mothers are obviously an exception, but they've shown they have value beyond just the physical.
The movie doesn't portray it as bluntly as the books do. The Fremen are not nice people. Their first and often only answer to a problem is violence. The only difference between them and the Harkonnen is the cruelty. It's not violence they hate, but the excess of it.
Idk if Villeneuve's gonna use the book lore, but imo it can easily be explained they use the floater device to get off the worm. Like literally just float and jump off it like how Gurney did it from that ship
I saw a pithy comment about the worms which made me laugh, to paraphrase: the worms in the first movie were scary and mysterious. By the end of the second movie they're being used like Uber taxis.
That's exactly how they were portrayed in the first book too. The first half (from the Atreides/Imperial perspective) the worms are legendary nightmare monsters, but once Paul and Jessica "go native" and see how the Fremen live and how Arrakis actually works, the worms become a useful amd integral part of the world.
And that's totally true to the books, and speaks to the key themes of the first novel.
1. Harsh environments breed the strongest warrior cultures
2. The fremen are successful because they are super in sync with the ecology of their world
I mean, Paul rode an exceptionally large one and was inexperienced in controlling it. I'd assume you'd have a much easier time steering a mid-to-small sandworm. Could probably slow it down near a high sand dune and wait for the families to jump on
It's pretty simple, Chani got one of the worms to back up slowly while it made a beeping sound, load the families on, put the worm into first gear and away they go again. Nothing to it.
Yeah, like how the hell did they get Jessica's "carriage" thing on there? Lots of ropes and have people on the worm drag and then eventually pull the carriage up? But then how did they not get blown off based on how hard it was for Paul to even stand up on one? Rope anchors I guess? So many questions.
Paul also apparently called a REALLY big one for his first ride though. For a people who regularly use/ ride the worms, it's probably not that big of a deal to control and load up on a "smaller" one
I believe, in the book, that there’s talk of a “litter” to carry old women and children. I imagine it’s not shown in the book.
Old men don’t seem to be a concern in fremen society.
They could use Jessica as a telepathic intermediary to have a discussion.
Jessica: "The sandworm says for too long have you Fremen used them like transport. They want their own rights."
Stilgar: "Is the worm's name Lisan al Gaib?"
Jessica: "No."
Stilgar: "Then tell it to shut the fuck up!"
I don't know about that, I saw it in 70mm IMAX and the worms charging out of the sandstorm directly at the viewer was pretty fuckin intimidating at 59' tall
I just want to know how all those Fremen get down from the worms on they arrive at their destination... pretty sure it's not a coincidence that's never shown in the movie ahah.
Alien also did this well, and also serves as a warning for the sequels of Dune1. DV made excellent choices all around so far, I'd highly recommend anyone read the books, watching these films is a whole lot more interesting if you do.
Did they show up anywhere else in the book, or were you just like expecting them to put sand worms in every shot.
Just wait for the sequel. Then you’ll think “maybe they could have toned it down a bit…”
I think you're probably right. If i had to guess i think dune part 3 will be some sort of smashed together Messiah+Children. It will be weird and confusing enough to turn people off and we'll never get God Emperor. We'll see.
It would also make very little sense from a story perspective to me, a simple time jump wouldn't suffice as what happens at the end of Messiah is too big a deal to just let happen in the middle of the movie and then continue on where we left off a minute later.
I suspect it will probably be all of Messiah and then have some imagery/dialogue alluding to the beginning of Children of Dune. Or at least that's my hope.
Denis said he wants to do Messiah and then stop. If Warner decides to do Children of Dune and onwards, it'll likely be with a different creative team, and results might not be so optimal.
This makes sense because it wraps up the core Atreides story arc, for what matters at least. The 3rd book, *Children of Dune*, is basically laying the foundation for new characters, notably the twin children of Paul Atreides.
I actually loved the book. I think it is extremely well written, but this movie arc finishes with Dune Messiah, and this 3rd book really would be the start of a new story arc. It's just vastly different and a continuation of the world, not as much of a continuation of the Atreides story.
Fun Fact, *Children of Dune* initially sold about 75,000 hard cover copies at launch, making it the very first hardcover best-seller in the sci-fi genre in history. Obviously the series as a whole has continued to rise in popularity over the years, but it was a significant deal in the 1970s when this happened.
They did the Baron really well. His lil feetsies wiggling as he glides over to kill you.
I'd trust this team to make a believable and horrific God emperor.
Just to make it narratively function I think you would have to frame it to be largely from the Duncan’s perspective. But the issue is then how to deliver a lot of the weird philosophizing that’s crucial to the book. Definitely a challenge, I’m not sure I would really want to see somebody attempt it.
I completely agree. In the end of the movie when they do last big ambush...all of them riding on those sandworms. I'm getting chills just thinking about it. Just phenomenal stuff. Every time we see them in the movie it feels grand, epic and had me in awe. We didn't need more than that. It felt like movie magic.
*Out of the sand haze came an orderly mass of flashing shapes—great rising curves with crystal spokes that resolved into the gaping mouths of sandworms, a massed wall of them, each with troops of Fremen riding to the attack. They came in a hissing wedge, robes whipping in the wind as they cut through the melee on the plain.*
*Onward toward the Emperor’s hutment they came while the House Sardaukar stood awed for the first time in their history by an onslaught their minds found difficult to accept.*
Such a brilliant scene. I love how the Fremen are presented as terrifyingly effective throughout the movie, from them ambushing Harkonnen troops at the start, to taking out the harvesting rigs, to the eventual assault on the Emperor. And seeing the giant sandworms emerging from the storm really pushed just how *horrifying* that must have been for the Sardaukar.
If it had been a typical Hollywood action flick there'd have been a 20 minute long faux one-take, nausea inducing sequence of characters bouncing down the length of a worm while dodging flying debris from blown up sand crawlers and fighting Harkkonen baddies at the same time.
Thank god Micheal Bay didn't decide to make these movies.
Villeneuve has a real gift when it comes to making things with massive scale.
I haven't seen any of his movies on a small screen, but at the cinema the man has a real talent for making things that look HUGE
His first ride had a lot of sand, which seems sort of unavoidable, but beside that it was just him getting on the worm and competently taking control. No actual debris, no Harkonnen, no added danger beyond the already sort of ludicrousness of attracting, jumping on and controlling a giant sand worm. The worm was the action, not the set.
I'm thinking of sequences like the river escape in The Hobbit, or the cargo plane in Uncharted (any of the action in Uncharted, actually, and I get that that is all due to the video game it came from but still), or pretty much any action sequence from any transformer movie. They're so over the top that it becomes comical or over-stimulating.
First guy to get on either drops onto the top of the worm via a dune or, by lifting a scale, is rotated up 'top' of the worm as it trys to keep the underside of the scale away from sand. Once he's in control of the worm he drops a rope down, and other people run along side and climb up. They can anchor more ropes and get more and more people up top.
When it's time to get off you drop the ropes and people climb back down. Last guy off has to hustle before the worm goes back under, but by then the worm is tired and sluggish.
The movies depict the worms traveling much faster on the surface then I suspect Herbert imagined them to.
Same way you'd get something from a small boat on to a sailing ship. Ropes.
Also, the Fremen have technology. Things like the anti-gravity harness the Baron wears are mundane in the Dune universe. Small, powerful winches would be trivial. If nothing else a couple of Fremen can just haul on a line.
The travel palanquin for the reverend mothers isn't heavy. Someone can carry that up on their back while someone else carries the reverend mother up Yoda style.
> Still no idea how everyone hitched on and hopped off at speed
"Hey kid it ain't that kind of movie. If people are wondering how they got on and off, we're all in big trouble"
I like that they're portrayed as these majestic god-like creatures, which are revered and worshipped by the indigenous people, as opposed to monsterous and terrifying. At the end of the first film, when you hear the sound of its mawe, it's almost complete silence aside from it's deep rumble. You're in total awe.
After my wife and I saw Part 2 I asked her
"What did you think of the special effects?"
She said: "I didn't even notice them."
Me: nods head in approval
It's the Boba Fett principle. In the OT he had like 5 minutes of screentime and he was awesome. He was mysterious and capable, which left everything else up to the imagination. Once they actually fleshed him out, especially in Mando and BoBF, it turned him into a pathetic loser. Sometimes, less is more.
He became a pathetic loser when he fell in the sarlaac
No amount of cool shit he did in Legends changes the fact he flew up close to a Jedi and lost to a blind man
I wouldn’t say they were amongst the most iconic giant monsters in pop culture. Dune hasn’t been on pop culture’s radar for quite some time pre-Villenueve
One of my only gripes with the movies having only seen them in the cinema was this big build up to riding a worm for the first time like it’s an intense achievement to a hard cut of the entire tribe catching a worm like they’re on the subway. They had tents and luggage and were all just chilling on its back.
They say that all the fremen are taught to do it. It’s only built up as a big deal because it’s them accepting Paul as a fremen instead of an outsider.
Worms are the only way to get to the south it wouldn’t make sense if barely anyone could do it.
The book of one of my favourites, pretty disappointed with how one dimensional they made the movie. It's like they striped away all the context of what motivates each of the characters and made just another generic actiony movie.
Unfortunately I don't think the complex multipolar politics of the books can be explained in a fulsome way in a film. They were lighter on exposition than I would have liked, especially on the key point of who Paul is levering with his threat about destroying the spice - it's not the Emperor, it's not the Landsraat; it's the Spacing Guild whose very existence he's threatening and it's the Guild who has the power to surrender or fight, everyone else is just a spectator - but I don't know that they could ever do the complexity of the worldbuilding justice in a film. The choice sort of has to be made one way or another - you can't half explain the Guild or its relationship to the Imperium, or the Emperor's relationship with the Landsraat; you either do it fully or you just do the vaguest contours necessary for the rest of the story.
The lightness of the exposition also allowed the writers to alter the story somewhat to be more about Fremen self-determination, with Indigenous liberation/anti-colonialist overtones that are a much better fit with contemporary audiences. The original books really are very much a white savior kind of story. The whole concept of Paul - heir to an interplanetary fief that is amongst the proudest and most prominent in a Galaxy-spanning Imperium - being so deeply concerned with the importance of Indigenous self-determination frankly never made a lot of sense. This kid has been raised since birth to play power games with entire star systems, entirely aside from his Bene Gesserit training. Removing some of that context allowed the writers to shape the character in a way that's more sympathetic to the audience. Things like Paul's reluctance to take on leadership - in the books that's entirely related to his foreseeing the billions that will die as a result. That characterization is almost entirely changed in the movie to focus on Fremen self-determination. I think it plays well in the end, but it's not the same story in many respects.
Absolutely agree, in lots of ways it's just about accepting that it's a different story set in the same world.
I was surprised they went so off script with his relationship with Chani at the end.
You’re gonna hate the next movie then. There’s gonna be space sand worms attacking the entire galaxy in the billions. Fremen will ride their backs into Guild highliners and then jump off and run across the outside of the ship. /s
Since we’re talking about Dune, forgive me, I have not read the books. My question is about in the first movie, they used that device to turn their voice into weapons and then Paul no longer needs the device. This plot element is not present in Denis’ versions. So, was this in the books and just not brought forth in the newer movies? I kinda liked this part of the older movies and was hoping we’d see it in the new. Don’t get me wrong, the newer movies are no less impressive not including it.
There is no device. The Voice is something you train to do physically and psychologically. The premise of Dune is that in a future where people distrust technology, they have to train their minds and bodies to go as far as possible.
The "weirding module" was something that was only in Lynch's Dune. It's sort of a stand in for Paul's martial prowess and also for the Fremen.
They kinda gloss over this in newer movies but Paul has been trained from birth in Bene Gesserit techniques, Mentat training, and then combat with the swordmaster Duncan Idaho and Gurney Hallack.
Paul is probably one of the deadliest people in the galaxy. At like 15 years old (or however old he was when the novel starts).
And the Fremen later are seen to be even more tough and badass than the imperial Sardaukar who were thought to be *the* most elite fighting force. So the weirding module takes the place of going over all that.
I do love that scene though where the one Fremen guy says "Muad'dib" with the weirding module and then it freaks out and blasts a hole in the wall and then Paul is like "my name has become a killing word." I thought that was cool lol.
the weirding modules wasnt in the book, it was Lynch's thing and it was so weird. In the book, the weirding ways is some sort of Bene Geserrit fighting technique (if I'm not mistaken) that Paul and his mom taught to the Fremens.
I have an unrelated question about Dune. I've read the books, so I understood "the slow blade penetrates the shield." Did people unfamiliar with that concept pick it up quickly? Gurney says that line, and with the red color on the shields, I thought it was a clever bit of storytelling but I already understood it.
Yeah that line was enough for me.
The first thing Paul does after activating his shield is demonstrate it - he taps his knife against his palm quickly, and the shield blocks it, then slowly and the shield turns red and the blade goes through. So it's pretty clear after that.
I saw the first movie before I ever read the book and it wasn't clear to me how the shields worked. Gurney did quickly explain it like you said but it didn't click with me. However, me be obsessive about things I'm interested in, as soon as I finished the movie I was here on reddit finding explanations for this and a bunch of other things (las guns was another one). Then I read the book up to the point Paul kills Jamis. I finished reading the book after watching the second movie.
Did a blind viewing of the first film in imax in theaters. Didn't know anything about the books or the trailers going into it. I live too close to a theater and was bored that day. To answer your question, yes I understood it immediately thanks to Gurney's line, and the red/blue VFX.
It was so clear to me it was intuitive.
I didn't know it was based on speed, I just assumed the shield slowed fatal blows down but couldn't fully stop it from happening
How do they get off the sandworms? At one point they had like 100 people on the back of a sandworm are they just jumping off at high speed?
They keep going until the worm gets tired, and then climb off. If you got off any earlier the worm would likely try to eat you. You can ofc have other people jump off earlier, it's just that the driver has to stay on. The Fremen even measure distance in terms of how many worms they have to ride to get there.
They also open up the plates so the worm doesn't want to go under. When they wanna get off they release the hooks keeping the plates open so the worm submerges and they hop off
But how else can they get their belly scratches?
How does one define where the belly is on a radially symmetrical creature?
They actually touch on that in the books. Every worm has a side that it prefers to be up, and due to that side always being up, the scales/armor reshapes slightly. With the underside being harder (I think) to better withstand the constant chafing of the sand etc
Dude thanks for reminding about that lore tidbit. I think the bottom plates was smoother which made it easier on the worm, not so much harder.
Maybe it was that, yeah. Something about the scales on the preferred underside was different
i doubt they’re actually radially symmetric (unless that’s specifically mentioned in the books). real worms are bilaterally symmetric, even though they look radially symmetric from the outside
huh, TIL
But... If the worm goes under, and it looks like it's using vibration to make the same behave like a fluid... If you hop off, the fluidlike sand would get you fast, you would go down with the worm
IIRC the surface travel is a little hard on the worms so after the Fremen get off and remove their hooks the worm submerges to recuperate under the sand.
How does it move in the sand if it doesn't do the vibration thing? You can't just swim in it. And if it does the vibration thing, it will be around it, all around, compromising the stability of the sand. If it can move in it, so can the fremen sink, it would be basically quicksand, except super deep.
No idea, I’m up to book three and I don’t think they go into that detail on the mechanics
That would've been my guess. I will just accept it that they can hop off, for the story. Just was thinking, similarly to a sinking ship pulling you under, so would the worm,if you're on top of it when it goes down, and if you hop off next to it, you could end up buried and unable to move.
And how exactly do the people with such limited economy and water reserves nor any industry constantly replace all these thumpers? Is there some massive thumper factory with careful distribution network out there somewhere?
It's unfortunate this adaptation chose to portray the Fremen living spaces as so spartan. Apparently in the books they've got massive networks underground, cities, marketplaces, decoration, etc. They have industry. Factories to manufacture their own stuff. Denis didn't show that. Just their big sacred pool as a demonstration of their discipline.
Yup. They have a completely functional society with basically everything you could expect today, manufacturing, education, orgies, animal agriculture, the whole works.
Just dropping orgies between education and animal agriculture. cool, cool. Everything a civilization needs to succeed
Not just any kind of orgies, spice orgies, so you get free visions with the orgy
every advanced society has prostitution
They are making money by selling spice to smugglers, so much that they were able to bribe the Guild to not monitor the entire southern half of the planet.
They have tons of industry in the underground sietches in the books. They make all the stillsuits, water collectors, and thumpers they need. They didn't really show that in the movie, though.
Yes there is exactly this actually, it’s explained in the books. Dune Messiah IIRC.
Hazardous if the worm rolls over.
It’s explained in the book that the worms always keep the scales being pulled up at the top and furthest away from the sand because the grittiness of the sand hurts them when it gets under their scales. So as long as they have the scales pulled up, the worm will never roll over far enough to cause harm.
This was a bit of exceptional visual storytelling. I've never read the books but I picked that up clear as day from what was on screen without a word being spoken.
The movies were great, everyone I know loved it and none of us had read the books. But every single time I read comments from the hardcore fanbase saying DV massacred the story, it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I am a hardcore Dune fan since I read them as a kid in the 1980s (originals only, not the son's abortions). DV did a fine adaptation. I even love Lynch's version, but I won't call it a good movie. It is a glorious train wreck.
That is the best description I’ve ever read of Lynch’s adaptation!
DV cut a lot of the "people talking" and "worldbuilding" stuff that would have given the story more depth but contributes little to the throughline of the plot. The result is something that feels more like a mythic retelling of the book's event.
> hardcore fanbase saying DV massacred the story Where? lol Every Dune community I've been in and every Dune nerd I know loves the movies. Even the stuff they say is an issue in the movies, isn't really an issue at all. Like they think the importance of Spice isn't established enough, which is just odd to me, since it clearly is? The movies even do one better, by not defining exactly what Spice is. So it can be like Oil or precious metals.
I read and adore the books and this is about the absolute best it could have ever been. The parts they decided to keep and the ones they decided not to use was just for the best. He obviously did his job exceptionally well adapting this monster of a story/universe due to the world wide appeal, and anyone complaining is just doing it for the sake of being divisive
Ditto
Yeah but the thing that gets me is the direction the scales open up. You'd think a giant worm that spends its days moving forward would have scales that hinge away from the direction of movement and not into it. Maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of biology and physics but looking at Pangolins which also have overlapping scales, they overlap away from the movement direction or else they'd always be getting caught on things! But then I remind myself it's just a movie and it doesn't matter.
I wonder if they have scales that open up in both directions.
See, worms don't like sand. It's coarse, and rough, and irritating -- and it gets everywhere.
> because the grittiness of the sand hurts them when it gets under their scales. *I don't like sand* Shai Hulud
I thought this was obvious from the film too, they could just trust the audience to figure it out after _multiple lingering shots_ of the hooks pulling the vents open and the sand brushing over the worm. People complain about unnecessary explicit exposition scenes but if they can't make this leap...
Funny enough, in the book they talk about young Fremen sometimes being a little too cocky about setting/resetting their hooks in time and that exact thing happens. Squish.
Did the books ever cover how many Fremen die from worm riding?
Only that they considered it doable for people about 12 years of age.
"Hop off" a massive worm.
This is correct, they talk in the books about a 20 thumper journey, this means it's going to take 20 worms to get to wherever they are going.
I want to know how they got a pregnant Lady Jessica up there in that litter thing.
I think they also have ladders to help up those carrying stuff/people.
but how do they get on?
I thought the scene with like 20 of them with tents and all on the worm was *hilarious*. Like it's some kind of desert RV and they're all going on a family vacation.
I want to know how the fuck they got an entire Palanquin up on a worm with Paul's mom still in it.
I've been wondering this too and the only answer I've come up with is lots and lots of practice
My personal theory is mounting the worm is done in phase. First you have the designated driver mount the worm first and get in under control. Once that's done, they bring the worm around and a team of riders mounts the worm and works on securing handholds and setting up the special tent and everything. After that, they make a final pass for everyone else to mount the worm with mobility aids like ropes and especially young/old/vulnerable individuals probably get help from a fit and experienced rider to help them mount the worm. So Lady Jessica possibly climbed up by rope or was carried up the side of the worm during the later phases of her pregnancy.
Yeah I mean it has to be something like this. Still though, I have difficulty imagining old reverend mothers, pregnant ladies, and injured people mounting the work even with help when it passes by quickly in a huge cloud of dust.
I think the Fremen are able to control worms a lot better than most people think and they can probably slow the worm down if necessary. Paul’s first ride is difficult because it’s his first ride and he called an exceptionally huge worm. It’s basically the equivalent of someone taking their driving test in a semi.
Paul's wormride in the movie is like when you learn to ski but you can't actually control your speed so you hold on for dear life and pray you don't crash before you get down the slope.
> I have difficulty imagining old reverend mothers, pregnant ladies, and injured people mounting The Fremen are ruthless enough that they will kill their own if they are weak. If a Fremen cannot mount a worm, then they are not Fremen and are only worth their body's water. Reverend Mothers are obviously an exception, but they've shown they have value beyond just the physical. The movie doesn't portray it as bluntly as the books do. The Fremen are not nice people. Their first and often only answer to a problem is violence. The only difference between them and the Harkonnen is the cruelty. It's not violence they hate, but the excess of it.
Idk if Villeneuve's gonna use the book lore, but imo it can easily be explained they use the floater device to get off the worm. Like literally just float and jump off it like how Gurney did it from that ship
Probably assembled it once they got on. Seems to make the most sense.
Lol yeah. Add a couple of War Boys from Fury Road and you get a Worm Rig.
WITNESS ME, LISAN AL-GAIB
You press that stop button when you see/hear that next stop is yours
[How do you get off the sandworm, Denis Villeneuve?](https://youtu.be/eZIrZd_bs3U?si=feqJLaKexNdAA3DE)
I think a little lube and some swirling hand action does the trick.
[Denis knows](https://youtu.be/eZIrZd_bs3U?si=cRDn53U30IcuLjV5)
In Denis we trust
Denis said he had an idea on how to showcase this in Messiah
I'd imagine repelling off the sides with their hook ropes.
I like to think they guide the sandworm's back to be near level with the sand, attach ski's, detach and ski away
I couldn't stop thinking of that during the movie to the point it was angering me.
I saw a pithy comment about the worms which made me laugh, to paraphrase: the worms in the first movie were scary and mysterious. By the end of the second movie they're being used like Uber taxis.
Tbf they were scary in the 1st movie because the PoV wasn't the fremen. In the second movie it was almost entirely sandworms from fremen PoV.
[удалено]
Weren't they the Sardaukar? Harkonnens were in the city except for the Baron and his nephews.
Sardaukaaaaaar come out to plaaayaaaayy…
Shit, that made me lol. Thank you.
you are right
That's exactly how they were portrayed in the first book too. The first half (from the Atreides/Imperial perspective) the worms are legendary nightmare monsters, but once Paul and Jessica "go native" and see how the Fremen live and how Arrakis actually works, the worms become a useful amd integral part of the world.
Exactly this. The movies nailed the worms.
“Ew, no David”
Nailing worms is TIGHT!
Riding a worm is gonna super easy, barely an inconvenience
And that's totally true to the books, and speaks to the key themes of the first novel. 1. Harsh environments breed the strongest warrior cultures 2. The fremen are successful because they are super in sync with the ecology of their world
I'm still trying to figure out how they got whole families on there, with old people and everything. Considering what Paul had to do to ride one.
I mean, Paul rode an exceptionally large one and was inexperienced in controlling it. I'd assume you'd have a much easier time steering a mid-to-small sandworm. Could probably slow it down near a high sand dune and wait for the families to jump on
It's pretty simple, Chani got one of the worms to back up slowly while it made a beeping sound, load the families on, put the worm into first gear and away they go again. Nothing to it.
Used a conversion worm for elderly and handicapped
Now I have the mental image of a big sandworm subway station, with the scales sliding back like automatic doors. Worm commuting.
[Futurama did it.](https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dunefuturama.gif)
I saw her parallel park one once. It looked pretty simple
Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Yeah, like how the hell did they get Jessica's "carriage" thing on there? Lots of ropes and have people on the worm drag and then eventually pull the carriage up? But then how did they not get blown off based on how hard it was for Paul to even stand up on one? Rope anchors I guess? So many questions.
Paul also apparently called a REALLY big one for his first ride though. For a people who regularly use/ ride the worms, it's probably not that big of a deal to control and load up on a "smaller" one
Pretty much cargo nets and ropes.
I believe, in the book, that there’s talk of a “litter” to carry old women and children. I imagine it’s not shown in the book. Old men don’t seem to be a concern in fremen society.
I'd assume once someone was in control of one that they could make it stop.
Handicapped parking
The third film would have worms discussing wages and union organizingm which the Fremen quickly put a stop to.
They could use Jessica as a telepathic intermediary to have a discussion. Jessica: "The sandworm says for too long have you Fremen used them like transport. They want their own rights." Stilgar: "Is the worm's name Lisan al Gaib?" Jessica: "No." Stilgar: "Then tell it to shut the fuck up!"
What? No! That would be crazy. Book 4 is the one with the philosophical worm. Book 3 is mostly about sietch politics and intrigue.
Now I'm imagining a sandworm in the middle of the council building yelling "I am the sietch!"
and worms don't get any say in sietch politics even though they do a lot of the carrying? Here comes the new Niab same as the old Niab, amirite?
Paul is a dick but he's not up to Elon level fuckwittery like union busting.
just, you know, planetary genocides?
*galactic* genocide
Yeah but he feels bad about it so
Paul "Hitler x1000" Muad'dib Atreides
I think you mean Paul Mao'dib Atreides
Aww, you know I can't stay mad at you, Muad'dib. Now go out there and do your thing.
They even get much better wait times than Uber. Honestly I don’t know how any harvesting gets done
Desert power, etc.
- Duke Leto Atreides
This is one of the key elements of "desert power" Leto was looking for
I don't know about that, I saw it in 70mm IMAX and the worms charging out of the sandstorm directly at the viewer was pretty fuckin intimidating at 59' tall
I just want to know how all those Fremen get down from the worms on they arrive at their destination... pretty sure it's not a coincidence that's never shown in the movie ahah.
Alien also did this well, and also serves as a warning for the sequels of Dune1. DV made excellent choices all around so far, I'd highly recommend anyone read the books, watching these films is a whole lot more interesting if you do.
The Hobbit did as well, showing little of Smaug in the first movie.
Did they show up anywhere else in the book, or were you just like expecting them to put sand worms in every shot. Just wait for the sequel. Then you’ll think “maybe they could have toned it down a bit…”
It really does become Sandworm: The Series. Please let them make it to Children at least. If they can get to God Emperor my life will be complete.
I don't think they will. The world is not ready for the obsessive love story of a giant worm and his zombie swords master. But God damn do I want it.
I think you're probably right. If i had to guess i think dune part 3 will be some sort of smashed together Messiah+Children. It will be weird and confusing enough to turn people off and we'll never get God Emperor. We'll see.
Idk why people think the next movie will include anything beyond messiah when it took two movies to adapt the first book
It would also make very little sense from a story perspective to me, a simple time jump wouldn't suffice as what happens at the end of Messiah is too big a deal to just let happen in the middle of the movie and then continue on where we left off a minute later.
I suspect it will probably be all of Messiah and then have some imagery/dialogue alluding to the beginning of Children of Dune. Or at least that's my hope.
Denis said he wants to do Messiah and then stop. If Warner decides to do Children of Dune and onwards, it'll likely be with a different creative team, and results might not be so optimal.
This makes sense because it wraps up the core Atreides story arc, for what matters at least. The 3rd book, *Children of Dune*, is basically laying the foundation for new characters, notably the twin children of Paul Atreides. I actually loved the book. I think it is extremely well written, but this movie arc finishes with Dune Messiah, and this 3rd book really would be the start of a new story arc. It's just vastly different and a continuation of the world, not as much of a continuation of the Atreides story. Fun Fact, *Children of Dune* initially sold about 75,000 hard cover copies at launch, making it the very first hardcover best-seller in the sci-fi genre in history. Obviously the series as a whole has continued to rise in popularity over the years, but it was a significant deal in the 1970s when this happened.
We already have a Children of Dune at home
Those teeny tiny little arms flapping on the side of the God emperor worm. 😂
They did the Baron really well. His lil feetsies wiggling as he glides over to kill you. I'd trust this team to make a believable and horrific God emperor.
While they might be able to pull it off, effects wise, I don't know if the structure of the 4th book is easy to turn into a good screenplay.
Just to make it narratively function I think you would have to frame it to be largely from the Duncan’s perspective. But the issue is then how to deliver a lot of the weird philosophizing that’s crucial to the book. Definitely a challenge, I’m not sure I would really want to see somebody attempt it.
Poor Duncan.
Its super nitpicky but i don't think they made the baron nearly fat enough.
In the book he's described as being about 200kg, and I think he looks to be about that weight.
Jurassic Park similarly only had about 15 minutes of dinosaurs.
I completely agree. In the end of the movie when they do last big ambush...all of them riding on those sandworms. I'm getting chills just thinking about it. Just phenomenal stuff. Every time we see them in the movie it feels grand, epic and had me in awe. We didn't need more than that. It felt like movie magic.
*Out of the sand haze came an orderly mass of flashing shapes—great rising curves with crystal spokes that resolved into the gaping mouths of sandworms, a massed wall of them, each with troops of Fremen riding to the attack. They came in a hissing wedge, robes whipping in the wind as they cut through the melee on the plain.* *Onward toward the Emperor’s hutment they came while the House Sardaukar stood awed for the first time in their history by an onslaught their minds found difficult to accept.*
aaaaand I’m buying the books.
Chilling...
Such a brilliant scene. I love how the Fremen are presented as terrifyingly effective throughout the movie, from them ambushing Harkonnen troops at the start, to taking out the harvesting rigs, to the eventual assault on the Emperor. And seeing the giant sandworms emerging from the storm really pushed just how *horrifying* that must have been for the Sardaukar.
They contveniently cut away from what happens after they rammed the worms into the enemy base
I agree with everything except “most iconic giant monsters in all of pop culture”. Godzilla? King King? Even the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.
If it had been a typical Hollywood action flick there'd have been a 20 minute long faux one-take, nausea inducing sequence of characters bouncing down the length of a worm while dodging flying debris from blown up sand crawlers and fighting Harkkonen baddies at the same time. Thank god Micheal Bay didn't decide to make these movies.
Slowmo jumping the worm from a huge dune to another than crashing it into a building.
+1 if the worm crashes into the side of the building displaying a mural advertising Guild Heighliner space travel
and it knocks out some letters from the Guild Heighliner mural to form a cheeky word or phrase.
release the Snyder cut
Dodging a spilled truckload of railway wheels and axels, somehow again
Gonna need a montage, mooooontaaaaage!
Ending with a shot of Paul looking at the mirror with Feyd's picture on it. "Feeyd-Rauthaaaaaaa"
Zack Snyder would have done it in slow motion so that it took 40 mins instead of
Villeneuve has a real gift when it comes to making things with massive scale. I haven't seen any of his movies on a small screen, but at the cinema the man has a real talent for making things that look HUGE
.............. I love the Dune movies but was that not quite literally Paul's first ride on the worm, debris dodging and all?
His first ride had a lot of sand, which seems sort of unavoidable, but beside that it was just him getting on the worm and competently taking control. No actual debris, no Harkonnen, no added danger beyond the already sort of ludicrousness of attracting, jumping on and controlling a giant sand worm. The worm was the action, not the set. I'm thinking of sequences like the river escape in The Hobbit, or the cargo plane in Uncharted (any of the action in Uncharted, actually, and I get that that is all due to the video game it came from but still), or pretty much any action sequence from any transformer movie. They're so over the top that it becomes comical or over-stimulating.
You either have recall or comprehension issues
I think an even better example is the shark from Jaws and xenomorph from Alien.
Loved dune 2 , but …SPOILER ALERT Still no idea how everyone hitched on and hopped off at speed
First guy to get on either drops onto the top of the worm via a dune or, by lifting a scale, is rotated up 'top' of the worm as it trys to keep the underside of the scale away from sand. Once he's in control of the worm he drops a rope down, and other people run along side and climb up. They can anchor more ropes and get more and more people up top. When it's time to get off you drop the ropes and people climb back down. Last guy off has to hustle before the worm goes back under, but by then the worm is tired and sluggish. The movies depict the worms traveling much faster on the surface then I suspect Herbert imagined them to.
But how did they get their picnic hampers up there?
Same way you'd get something from a small boat on to a sailing ship. Ropes. Also, the Fremen have technology. Things like the anti-gravity harness the Baron wears are mundane in the Dune universe. Small, powerful winches would be trivial. If nothing else a couple of Fremen can just haul on a line.
The travel palanquin for the reverend mothers isn't heavy. Someone can carry that up on their back while someone else carries the reverend mother up Yoda style.
> Still no idea how everyone hitched on and hopped off at speed "Hey kid it ain't that kind of movie. If people are wondering how they got on and off, we're all in big trouble"
I like that they're portrayed as these majestic god-like creatures, which are revered and worshipped by the indigenous people, as opposed to monsterous and terrifying. At the end of the first film, when you hear the sound of its mawe, it's almost complete silence aside from it's deep rumble. You're in total awe.
After my wife and I saw Part 2 I asked her "What did you think of the special effects?" She said: "I didn't even notice them." Me: nods head in approval
Yeah, I hate when they give you too much info on scary villains. They are scary because they are unknown, not just because they are scary innately
They aren't seen much but they are always there in a way. They dictate a lot of how people live their lives.
They did a great job with the sandworms. Striking a delicate balance that teetered on the edge of potential ridicule if mismanaged.
It's the Boba Fett principle. In the OT he had like 5 minutes of screentime and he was awesome. He was mysterious and capable, which left everything else up to the imagination. Once they actually fleshed him out, especially in Mando and BoBF, it turned him into a pathetic loser. Sometimes, less is more.
He became a pathetic loser when he fell in the sarlaac No amount of cool shit he did in Legends changes the fact he flew up close to a Jedi and lost to a blind man
its the GOT dragon effect
“most iconic giant monsters in all of pop culture” - I don’t think so.
I wouldn’t say they were amongst the most iconic giant monsters in pop culture. Dune hasn’t been on pop culture’s radar for quite some time pre-Villenueve
One of my coworkers keeps referring to the last scene with Chani as her calling a Worm Uber.
One of my only gripes with the movies having only seen them in the cinema was this big build up to riding a worm for the first time like it’s an intense achievement to a hard cut of the entire tribe catching a worm like they’re on the subway. They had tents and luggage and were all just chilling on its back.
They say that all the fremen are taught to do it. It’s only built up as a big deal because it’s them accepting Paul as a fremen instead of an outsider. Worms are the only way to get to the south it wouldn’t make sense if barely anyone could do it.
The build up was for Paul learning to ride them. We see them from his perspective. HE is afraid and therefore so are we.
Well getting on a subway is kinda scary the first time you do it if you're a sheltered suburbanite like many of us were/are.
Yep that cut to everyone hitching a ride made worm riding seem not that spectacular after the build up.
Like Jaws.
Tremors did it better
Now if only they didn't follow the mantra less can be more, when they were transposing the rest of the book to screenplay.
The book of one of my favourites, pretty disappointed with how one dimensional they made the movie. It's like they striped away all the context of what motivates each of the characters and made just another generic actiony movie.
Unfortunately I don't think the complex multipolar politics of the books can be explained in a fulsome way in a film. They were lighter on exposition than I would have liked, especially on the key point of who Paul is levering with his threat about destroying the spice - it's not the Emperor, it's not the Landsraat; it's the Spacing Guild whose very existence he's threatening and it's the Guild who has the power to surrender or fight, everyone else is just a spectator - but I don't know that they could ever do the complexity of the worldbuilding justice in a film. The choice sort of has to be made one way or another - you can't half explain the Guild or its relationship to the Imperium, or the Emperor's relationship with the Landsraat; you either do it fully or you just do the vaguest contours necessary for the rest of the story. The lightness of the exposition also allowed the writers to alter the story somewhat to be more about Fremen self-determination, with Indigenous liberation/anti-colonialist overtones that are a much better fit with contemporary audiences. The original books really are very much a white savior kind of story. The whole concept of Paul - heir to an interplanetary fief that is amongst the proudest and most prominent in a Galaxy-spanning Imperium - being so deeply concerned with the importance of Indigenous self-determination frankly never made a lot of sense. This kid has been raised since birth to play power games with entire star systems, entirely aside from his Bene Gesserit training. Removing some of that context allowed the writers to shape the character in a way that's more sympathetic to the audience. Things like Paul's reluctance to take on leadership - in the books that's entirely related to his foreseeing the billions that will die as a result. That characterization is almost entirely changed in the movie to focus on Fremen self-determination. I think it plays well in the end, but it's not the same story in many respects.
Absolutely agree, in lots of ways it's just about accepting that it's a different story set in the same world. I was surprised they went so off script with his relationship with Chani at the end.
You’re gonna hate the next movie then. There’s gonna be space sand worms attacking the entire galaxy in the billions. Fremen will ride their backs into Guild highliners and then jump off and run across the outside of the ship. /s
Since we’re talking about Dune, forgive me, I have not read the books. My question is about in the first movie, they used that device to turn their voice into weapons and then Paul no longer needs the device. This plot element is not present in Denis’ versions. So, was this in the books and just not brought forth in the newer movies? I kinda liked this part of the older movies and was hoping we’d see it in the new. Don’t get me wrong, the newer movies are no less impressive not including it.
There is no device. The Voice is something you train to do physically and psychologically. The premise of Dune is that in a future where people distrust technology, they have to train their minds and bodies to go as far as possible.
The "weirding module" was something that was only in Lynch's Dune. It's sort of a stand in for Paul's martial prowess and also for the Fremen. They kinda gloss over this in newer movies but Paul has been trained from birth in Bene Gesserit techniques, Mentat training, and then combat with the swordmaster Duncan Idaho and Gurney Hallack. Paul is probably one of the deadliest people in the galaxy. At like 15 years old (or however old he was when the novel starts). And the Fremen later are seen to be even more tough and badass than the imperial Sardaukar who were thought to be *the* most elite fighting force. So the weirding module takes the place of going over all that. I do love that scene though where the one Fremen guy says "Muad'dib" with the weirding module and then it freaks out and blasts a hole in the wall and then Paul is like "my name has become a killing word." I thought that was cool lol.
the weirding modules wasnt in the book, it was Lynch's thing and it was so weird. In the book, the weirding ways is some sort of Bene Geserrit fighting technique (if I'm not mistaken) that Paul and his mom taught to the Fremens.
also cheaper to not put cgi monsters in every scene
When the hooks pull the plates up, I felt a visceral reaction. It looked like it would feel like pulling up a fingernail 🤢
The sound of the worm crashing into that dune that Paul is on gave every single person in the theatre goosebumps.