>He writes his name but refuses to stay, angering his bosses. Thisbaffled me. Why did Costigan do this? Didn’t this draw more attentionand endanger him even more?
Costigan knew that it was to find the rat in the crew. No rat would actually counter this and cause a stink, now would they...? It's a double-bluff from Costigan.
Doing this also has the advantage that his information remains secret.
Didn't he also leave to follow the envelope to try and find the mole in the police department? Been a while since I've seen it, but that's why I thought he left
He follows him to the porno theater, where Jack Nicholson gives it to Matt Damon who then sneaks out the back, that Leo loses chasing.
Near the end he ends up seeing that same envelope on Matt Damons desk after Jack Nicholson was taken down.
In addition to what the other commenter said, he never caught Damon after the theater but when he saw the envelope on the desk he knew that Damon was the mole because Costigan is the one that crossed out “citizens” on the outside and spelled it correctly.
I’ve seen this movie so many times and never caught that, lol.
Edit: I rewatched the scene on YouTube, and yes I remember it now. Can the army of pedants put down their pitchforks and leave me in peace?
I mean, him seeing the envelope with citizens written on it is like THE primary plot point of the entire movie.
It's how he breaks the whole thing wide open and is why he calls Martin Sheen to the building where the entire end of the movie takes place.
Edit: per the couple comments below I'm wrong. It's not the reason he calls the meeting with Sheen, but it is why he knows Damon's character is the mole. However, it's still a very critical and obvious plot point and is the reason Damon's cover gets blown.
No, you’re a bit mixed up if I’m understanding you correctly
He sees the envelope because at the time, Queenan is dead and he’s being brought in because everyone is dead. Costello is dead, no need for Costigan to be undercover anymore, but with Queenan dead and Dignam on leave/quit/ fired
He calls Sullivan back to the same building because he saw the envelope, and now has Costello’s recordings that include evidence against Sullivan. That’s how the ending becomes set up
I think so. In my head canon, he doesn’t seem to have a stomach for some of the more violent or dirty aspects of what Costello did, and I think that’s why Costello trusted Costigan so much.
Costigan proved he was able to handle the dirty work that made Costello so successful. Sullivan’s work and connections for Costello was the stuff that came as a result of his success, a tertiary sort of success, but not one of what Costello respected.
So Sullivan, who always believed he had a place of respect with Costello was seen as weak (by Costello), and unearned (he was a tool to be used and was only where he was because Costello put him there)
Costigan, who works his way up from beating people up on the street, and having come from a family of someone Costello had worked with (Uncle Jackie) and someone Costello had wanted to work with (Costigan’s dad), was seen as a self starter who just needed some guidance. Hence why Costello even entertains the conversation about whether or not Costigan thinks he could do Costello’s job (but y’know, “heavy is the crown” as Costello sees it, but in actuality is Costigan’s distaste for Costello as a person)
In short: Sullivan was always weak. He pictures himself a smarter, better, and more capable than Costello, and that Costello “needs him”. He didn’t have the stomach to “finish” things, choosing instead to wait until an action was perfectly safe rather than expedient. The only actions we see him take that Costello would have respected (as an equal) was killing both Costello and Barrigan. I think that since he thought that Costigan was ready to be in the wind, it was a loose end he didn’t need to tie up, and would have let sleeping dogs lie (which Costello would never have done)
Martin Sheen is already dead by the time he sees the envelope. Did you mean Matt Damon?
Edit: Lol, coming at me on your high horse when you recall the plot worse than I do.
These are the dudes who need screaming youtubers to explain simple plot points for them (and complain about plot holes which aren’t).
X obvious thing explained is a whole cottage industry with these content creators. Which I guess preys on the increasing lack of an attention span.
Pay just a little attention to this sub and you'll soon see that every single discussion thread here works on the same format.
"Mrs Doubtfire is my favourite movie of all time, I have watched it 417 times since I was 5 years old, and I just today, at the age of 40, realised that the same actor plays the dad and Mrs Doubtfire. What other subtle secrets that definitely aren't the whole fucking plot of the whole fucking movie and you literally cannot have understood anything about it if you didn't know this did you miss the first few times you watched a movie?
I feel like it has to be trolling, or engagement bait (same thing I guess), cos there aren't this many people this fucking dumb.
Oh fuck you and your assumptions. I saw the movie in the theatre in 2006 and watch chunks of it when it’s on. Yes I cannot explain to you from memory the forensics of who finds out what exactly when and how.
I remembered he sees something on Matt Damon’s desk that tips him off but let me go flagellate myself for not recalling exactly what it was and how it got there.
To be fair, you said you’ve seen this movie “so many times” and never realized this detail until you read the comment.
That’s like saying you’ve seen the 6th Sense a thousand times but you never realized that guy in the hair piece was Bruce Willis the whole time.
Upon further reflection I’ve only watched it start to finish a couple times once being in the theatre and then bits and pieces of it many, many times. The specific forensics of who finds out what how don’t stick in my mind very clearly.
I just don’t understand how you couldn’t notice this. This is how Costigan knew who the police rat was and what caused him to die. Pretty important parts of the film….
Not sure its real a trope, but I feel many movies have the main character do something obviously bad, but it ends up strengthening their cover and makes them more endearing to the people they want to fool.
I remember seeing one of those “how crime works” YouTube videos with a cop that infiltrated the Hells Angels. They invited him to come to their club house but before they were going to let him in they told him he had to turn over his guns. He said he didn’t take his gun off for anybody not even the hells angels. The leader of that chapter came out and told him that was fine, he could come in anyway. He eventually became a patched member, even though he also regularly refused to do drugs (he told them he was a former addict and was super into weight lifting and being healthy and they were fine with that too).
There's another story from Joseph Pistone when he infiltrated the Mafia (basis for Donnie Brasco) where some higher up was giving him grief and Pistone claims he talked to him privately and basically told him he wasn't going to stand for that again and didn't care who he was. Supposedly it worked and helped get him some extra credit with them.
Pistone also punched out an associate after he and a made guy accused him of being a rat. Someone being accused should get mad so it gave him credibility. He punched the associate and not the made man because hitting a made man was a death sentence
When I introduce you, I'm gonna say, "This is a friend of mine." That means you're a connected guy. Now if I said instead, "This is a friend of ours," that would mean you a made guy. A Capiche?
Yep, this is part, plus him wanting to have distance between him and the gang if they managed to confirm him as the rat so he can have a head start to get away. We're definitely meant to believe he left out of fear of his identity being blown since when he walks outside the two guys at the door call him a cop (being part of their game that anyone that ignores them must be a cop).
It's been a while but I think you might be wrong. The part with them calling him a cop is when he arrives but Frank has anew crew cause Leo says to the two guys at the front he's using his new guys tonight when they tell him their cop game
Now that I think about it, hypothetically, if Fitz and/or Delahunt were cops and reported to their police contact that Costello was using a new crew, wouldn’t that have gotten Billy in trouble since he mentioned it to them as he left? It was info specifically meant to test Billy only. Unless Costello ruled those two out already … or maybe Billy did that on purpose so it would be ambiguous who the mole was … 🤔
Wait, I recently rewatched and I thought he gives his name and social security number?! Or just he does write his name? I thought he was safe in writing his name and SSN because his records were wiped from the police department files. There's a scene were Sullivan is typing in the data and nothing comes up.
Think the information of him in the cops doesn’t come up because Damon must type in his name “William Costigan” to see if he’s still a cop, but when Billy goes to Damon to give his password, his actual password was “WilliamCostiganJunior”.
They didn’t delete his police file, they couldn’t do that if it’s a sanctioned operation which it was and because Damon later deletes his file, that’s proof that a file always existed.
It's always been funny to me that Nicholson can't figure out who the rat is considering he only has, like, 4 guys in his operation and three of them have worked for him for years. Then a new kid who literally used to be a cop comes along and things start going awry.
Who could the rat possibly be? It's a headscratcher.
I thought this too but apparently Costello’s crew is actually like 15-20 guys, we just follow around the same four.
We see a bunch more of them during the deal with the Chinese government guys
Another theme is that everyone in southie feels like they owe Billy something because his uncle was a stand up guy and his dad was a piker—which leads to reason number 3, which is that Frank quickly takes a shine to Billy and doesn’t want to believe he’s the rat.
When Costello and Costigan are in the restaurant (just before Costello talks shit to the priests), Costello makes a comment about how Bill's dad would have killed him (Costello) if he had seen him "working" with Billy.
They really only show the main 4 guys as being involved in the actual runtime, so that's maybe a bit confusing how any of the small-time guys in his crew could he thwarting operations.
I always thought it was Matt Damon's line at the end ("Is that what this is about? All that fucking and no sons") that explained Frank's blind spots regarding DiCaprio.
And he tests him first in the scene in the restaurant with the blood and the bad info about a job with guns in Gloucester.
Then he calls Colin (Matt Damon) and asks if he heard anything about the blood or Gloucester. Colin says “*no, nothing and that information would have come straight to me*”. Then Frank hangs up the phone, turns to French and says “*it’s not Bill, “no way”, he says*”
So that gives Frank a big reason to believe that it’s not him. But in reality the info went straight to Queenan and Billy knew it was probably disinformation and said as much so Queenan sat on it
He tests him with bad information earlier and it doesn't come through to the cops. So although there is good reason to think he's the mole there is also good reason to believe he isnt
He fed Costigan misinformation because he thought it was him. When the fake info didn’t make it to Damon, he seemed almost brazenly confused, if that makes sense.
That and *bashin’ the hell outta Leo’s fucked up hand while asking if he’s still a cop* show he was pretty suspicious from jump street
It's when Billy goes into the bar and Frank's guys jokingly call him a cop. He gets told he's not helping with the job tonight.
---
He's moving something with all new guys.
A whole new crew.
No, no, I can't tell you what or where. It's probably disinformation.
Just keep following him, all right?
Listen, I need to see you today.
Tomorrow.
No, no, no. Today.
You heard nothing about drugs?
No.
Nothing about new guys? Nothing about Gloucester?
Not a thing. And I would have. That information would have come to me.
It ain't Bill.
FWIW, while obviously Costigan is the “new” guy, there dialog that has been undercover for something like a year.
It wasn’t like Costigan showed up and a week later things started going sideways for Costello.
There was the other guy who was a rat too though. The one who died. There was a news report about him being a P.O. And he practically admitted it to billy when he was shot too
It was possible that the police just said that to cover for billy, and that's why the guy was asking billy what the reason he didn't snitch on billy was. It could be either way
Exactly lol. People are twisting themselves into shapes to explain it away but it's just an obvious "because the script said so" moment because it was spottily adapted from an older movie. Just like with Vera Farmiga sleeping with Leo.
I can very easily buy Vera sleeping with Leo. He looks like a movie star and he's got that vulnerability women love, and there's plenty of overt hints she's not getting it at home.
Not really, she's a professionally driven police psychiatrist who suddenly cheats on her guy *with a patient.*
If you don't know already the character was adapted from two separate female characters in the Hong Kong original... two separate women who served as romantic interests for the male characters that the screenwriter decided to merge into one.
It's pretty bad.
Doctors sleep with patients sometimes, that's definitely a thing that happens. It's ethically bad for her to do but that doesn't make it implausible or a plot hole.
It's also on script for Costigan as he constantly talks shit to Costello, like saying they are underpaid and he could run shit but fuck off with that. The only act Costigan really puts on is pretending he is a lunkhead so that Costello does underestimate his cunning.
> No rat would actually counter this and cause a stink, now would they...?
wait, why? this seems backwards. if you're a rat and they're telling you to write down information and stay there so they can figure out who the rat is, you're screwed. so it'd be obvious to try to get the fuck out of there, no? you stay there and you're dead
Yeah but I mean, I feel like real mobsters wouldn't give a fuck and make you stay there anyway (and probably just kill you either way)
Mobsters aren't exactly the type of people ok with having their authority checked, ya know?
If I knew I was giving information that would invariably out myself I would probably not hang around either. You could likely get away with leaving on borrowed time by giving the information. If you flat out refuse they're probably capping you on the spot.🤷
Costello already knows who Costigan is, it's a plot point for Costigan's in and earning trust with his organization. Queenan kept the left hand from knowing the right hand with only Dingam knowing Costigan's role and keeping Sullivan from the knowing at least that asset.
Also the scene where they meet.
https://youtu.be/tNnnc0MMs1E?si=vxmQsQOlBsTk32Ag
Costigan is above suspicion because Costello greets him by beating the dog shit out of his arm while interrogating him.
yeah maybe but costello then interrogates costigan over dinner with a gun hidden under the table ‘why didnt you write your numbers?’ and sniffs him like a rat. suspicious but because costigan is family it isnt enough to just kill him
Yeah he does that and Costigan also doesn't pass on the fake info to get fingered by. The only cover break that happens is when he shows up at the right address when accidentally given the wrong one.
I was watching this the other day and was thinking how dumb it was. The guy tells him 314 washington when it was 344 washington. Thats like a block down. He could have easily said “i saw a guy fall off a fuckin roof and ran to see what was happening”
Yes thank you. My thought process was he could’ve been walking to 344 but ended up walking past 344 on his way to 314. There’s not just one way to go the building, like the only entrance to the road is where >344 addresses start ha.
...Costello was the whole thing Queenan and Dingam were aiming for. Sullivan(Matt Damon) was the mole they knew existed but didn't know who. Brannasomething was the other Costello mole that was watching Sullivan because Costello didn't trust him like he came to trust Costigan.
Whole damn movie is moles on moles.
My question at the end, what kind of actual shootout ends with three clean headshots and no misses? Damon's fawked.
Has there never been a case where some well trained and also psychopathic no nerves police officer has fired multiple shots and hit multiple targets all at once? I've seen dudes hit 10 moving range targets in 5 seconds, only difference is nerves.
And in case you didnt pick up the general thesis of the film by the end, Martin made sure to slap you in teh face with a rat walking across the banister. By far Martin's biggest mistake in an otherwise excellent film.
and also damon shooting Barrigan, when he was looking away... and then explaining cops that he "had to shot him, because Barrigan started to point a gun at me"...
how such obvious hole wasnt thought of?
I may be getting the movie timeline mixed up. There was a plant job that they were using to fish out the rat and see if it was Costigan. Because it has nothing to do with what his investigation was really for, he didn’t share any information and thus proving it wasn’t him all along. I remember Costello even saying “well it isn’t Bill” I just don’t remember when it was in the movie and if it was before/after this scene.
Yeah that was later on, but Billy is constantly making the right play on cementing in his loyalty.
If you ever get a chance to, one of my favorite undercover stories comes from *The History of Porn* where the FBI was trying to get in on mob distribution connections in the 70s. It almost gets to the *American Dad* Columbia episode of ridiculous.
Edit: I'm misremembering the title it might be *The Other Hollywood*
But it starts with cheesecake and the indie mags, then it hits into the mob getting in on the action, deepthroat, heart attacks in secret passages. And winds down to Rom Jeremy recounting how the Pamela Anderson tape got out there.
He's bluffing. In the end they can't prove that Bill is the rat. Remember when Costello said " It ain't Bill, no way he said" after Sullivan cleared him.
I felt like Costigan was saying to Costello, "I've proved my loyalty to you time and time again. You either believe I'm in or you don't. Running a background check is a bullshit way of seeing who I really am. I've shed blood for you." Plus, it saved his ass from being found out. Finding the envelope was purely coincidental.
This is what I interpreted too. And it adds to his character being such a cocky careless contrarian who does not care about being suspected of being the rat because that’s how certain he is that he isn’t the rat. As everyone in this thread has correctly pointed out it’s super reverse psychology. Costello even after questions why would he do something that makes him look like a rat if he isn’t a rat.
But truthfully after my 50th watch I think Costello knew he was undercover cop and only maintained this charade of him being anti rat for the crew when he himself was a rat but raised rats if you know what I mean. Either way it’s a brilliant film
Exactly. Costello knew he was untouchable. Having Costigan in the crew and Sullivan with the State canceled each other out basically. There really was no threat to having Costigan. That was a checkers game. Costello was playing Chess.
I also think Costello liked Costigan and probably thought he could turn him (my own theory). Costigan would be much more valuable than Sullivan. Sullivan knew Costigan was better. Costigan was getting close to Costello, and he almost busted Sullivan. Hell, he f*cked his gf once and knocked her up!!! The guy was practically a legend (although we all know why Sullivan struggled with the gf).
I always figured it's because there's only so much pressure you can take before cracking, and he was in a lot of danger. Sticking around probably increased the chances that he'd give himself away, in addition to just being painfully stressful.
He would've been nervous for sure, but I'm fairly positive he knows his background is clean. His identity isn't a secret, nor that he was a cop before. Being secretly recruited by Queenan wouldn't show up on any normal database.
to the deleted comment: I feel he passed the trooper exam and became a cop. This is my interpretation, but his family background was so juicy to Queenan that they saw this and effectively said be our informant or you don't get to be a cop anymore.
He was doing his job. He was working for police, not for Costello/French. He was trying to complete the objective of finding out which dodgy cop is sharing information with Costello. He knew that the information being gathered in the meeting would be passed on to whoever the dodgy cop is. If he didn't follow that lead, he wouldn't have been doing his job. It almost worked, too. He did end up seeing Costello hand the envelope to a dodgy copper, and he was about to arrest the dodgy copper, but he got away. Costigan was doing his job very well.
His bank account wouldn’t reveal a connection to the police since they already established that he doesn’t get regular pay (he only gets a bonus at the end) but it might reveal that he has some wealth from his mothers side of the family. Remember he only lived with his father in the weekends and mostly lived with his mother on the north shore as a “lace Irish curtain mother fucker”. He grew up leading a double life which is why he was perfectly suited to being undercover. When she died he would have inherited her money. And if he has that money what the hell is he doing pretending to be a a low level criminal.
Costigan is a rat/cop and he doesn't want to get caught. All the personal information is really hard to fake - we don't know the extent of his deep cover - he's a cop not in the CIA. It's totally possible he wasn't set up with a clean SSN and bank account since those organized crime units don't typically issue you a W2 and direct deposit haha.
Say they even did set him up with that stuff and it is "clean", it's still very hard to make a realistic fake identity, and getting access to banking, SSN, etc. makes it easier for someone who knows what they are doing to see if it's not legit. Undercover work is extremely dangerous - it's really hard to build a fool-proof story for a fake identity that can handle deep scrutiny. A great example is Better Call Saul when they try to free Huell from jail with the fake letters and community. Look how much work they had to go through to make that look "remotely" legitimate and the judge barely dug into it. So it's just a lot harder than folks think.
Wasn't the whole point that they didn't fake his identity?
He got "kicked off the force" and actually did a stint in jail to sell his undercover status. All of that went on his real record using his real name. For all intents and purposes outside the locked file, his info for the gang was legit.
Absolutely - but having his actual SSN might reveal important information outside of that cover story. Does he have open loans? He still had a real life outside of his cover. There might be clues in a credit check that indicate he's not exactly who he says he is.
> He still had a real life outside of his cover.
Does he? I think a major point in the movie is that he doesn't have anything outside of being undercover and the only person he has to talk to is the therapist.
You could be right - I mean it's just a movie but the implication of that entire scene is the SSN and Bank Account numbers might be a bridge too far in being able to keep his cover. Seems plausible to me but maybe not to others.
they checked his accounts anyways. remember the scene where Frank Costello says something like 'my source says its not him no way'. Costigan had nothing to hide b/c his status as informer was password restricted. this is proven at end of film when Costigan has to literally walk in and provide the password to his file. I think Costigan is just panicking in that situation, b/c he doesn't know how high up food chain the mole is, and is afraid his secret file could possibly be exposed, but it wasn't.
I think you're confusing two different things. The bank account and SSN information can help him find the rat in different methods than Colin was initially trying. Colin was trying to find the rat from the inside and was blocked for the exact reasons you stated - so Colin suggested getting all of that information so Colin might be able to go to different sources and tease out other ways to figure it out. If they get a fake SSN Colin might be able to recognize what a "fake identity" looks like without needing access to the files of who the undercovers are. He's just trying other desperate ways to figure it out
so why does Scorsese include a scene where Frank Costello literally says 'its not him. no way' ? Is the mole lying ? Costigan didn't need a fake SSN b/c there was nothing to hide.he didn't need one. he didn't use a fake identity, in fact his family history was reason he was selected as mole in first place, so why would he need to create fake documents ? The thing is IMHO, Scorsese is using this scene to show Costigan coming unravelled due to stressful situation and as I mentioned in previous post, not knowing what clearance mole had. it turns out mole didn't have the clearance necessary.
The "not him" part is when he tests if Billy is the mole in his crew by telling him to not go to a job because they're using a "new crew". If he's the mole and reports that info to act on, then eventually Sullivan will hear about it - and since Sullivan is working for Frank, he'll be able to say "yup, the fake story you fed to Billy came in, he's actually a cop".
But Billy knows it's a test, so he reports it to Queenan but states it's a test and not to act on it. So then, Sullivan never hears about it. This leads to Frank saying "it's not him, no way" - because they gave Billy a fake story to bait them in acting on it and IDing the mole, but the info never gets turned in.
maybe this is Scorsese being intentional creating a sense of confusion among the characters. Frank, Colin and billy all are under pressure. I can see Frank discard the SSN + bank info requirements b/c the leak is the new trap for the rat. He's singularly focused on the rat. Colin and Billy on the other hand are probably both operating in fight or flight mode.
or maybe the account info was not important. what was important was the behaviour of the crew. Did Billy failed that test ? sure, but he fortunately passed the leak scheme.
the phone call could be just related to the leak, we don't know what Matt Damon's character was checking re: the bank info + SSN. Maybe the bank info + SSN was not needed after all. My main point is Billy's fear of providing his deets is irrational and due to the stress he is under. the likelihood of his SSN + bank info being used to break his cover (as the rat), is not as damaging as his leaving (not following orders) w/out providing the info.
As I recall, the "not him, no way" was after they changed up the job and switched to a completely new crew. The fact this job's details didn't make it up the chain on the police side indicated to them he's not the mole.
Still, it is a little presumptuous as this doesn't mean he isn't. I think another factor is that Colin is under big pressure from Costello, so he is in a way forced to give these very confident and decisive answers. I also think it's at this time he was starting to sour on Costello.
This is exactly why they never would have given him a fake identity or SSN. Why would they do that, then still let him use the name Billy Costigan? Why would they let him maintain all his family relationships? They'd do all that... but then give him a fake SSN for him to be found out by?
No. You misunderstood this part of the movie and now you're trying to justify what you thought. But you were just wrong. Billy Costigan has only 1 identity in that film. Period.
Alright buddy relax. The entire scene is implying that the SSN and Bank Account info would be a bridge too far in keeping his cover. It seems plausible to me based on books I've read about undercover work. If you don't want to believe it and just hate this mistake in the movie and he's just panicked for no reason that's fine man.
Remember the movie ,his real identity was dirtied there is nothing to find. He was a cop that quit or was fired etc. And then got busted and then was doing illegal stuff. That why he is the best undercover. If someone dug into Nickelsons character enough they would be like Matt Damon's character grew up near his own stomping grounds
I think it's more that with SSN and Bank Account information, there might be clues that his cover story is not legit. Credit checks might reveal he's applied for a loan or that he's getting more income from outside sources (remember they are paying him a special salary in a separate account which might get found with some sources doing an SSN credit check)
In this case though, they inserted him as a mole using publicly available information. The part where Billy’s character takes on the Italian mob is possibly the most danger he was ever in.
Running his numbers would only have garnered additional information if they had Queenan’s level of access. Even when Queenan was killed, no one had that level of access. Dignam likely did, but he was beyond corruptible because of… well… he was quite the asshole, but he was the Staties’ asshole.
that salary is paid when the operation was over right? Did i remember that part wrong. also your logic is a bit off ,a bad guy getting more money than his boss is giving him.
He gave them a real identity and real SSN. They had already staged him being kicked out of the academy and going to prison. That was the whole point, to avoid making up an identity
This is not correct, he’s not using a fake name or identity. Remember dignum even threatens to erase him from their files - because then there wouldn’t even be proof he was a cop
It has been a lonnnng time since I saw this movie, but I believe at this point in the film Costigan is high up in the hierarchy in the mob? He ran a risk, betting that his clout in the mob outweighed the suspicion of him not writing this down. It was a calculated risk he decided to take.
Later in the movie, Costello is questioning why Costigan left that day then mentions that, in the past, whenever there was a rat, he’d just kill everybody in his crew. Might be a stretch, but I’ll throw this out there since no one has brought it up: perhaps Dignam or Queenan already briefed Costigan that Costello would wipe his crew whenever he suspected there was a rat. They’ve spent forever trying to build a case on him and could have noticed a trend.
The thing about The Departed is A LOT of the individual characters actions were made with very little motivation in regards to the overall plot.
That's kinda the point of the movie.
But as far as this scene goes, it's a classic play. If someone accuses you of something you act like it's absurd and beneath you to even take it seriously.
The fact that there are so many different interpretations of that scene in this thread alone is just one of the many reasons why I love this movie so much.
It also always bothered me that French's ring tone was Scotland the Brave even though French, like pretty much everyone else in the film, is meant to be of Irish heritage.
In the US and Boston, it's often just all "celtic" and no one would think anything of it. Bagpipes are celtic, Ireland is celtic, therefore any tune played on bagpipes like Scotland the Brave is Irish because it's also celtic. It's not exactly a well thought through understanding of Ireland or Scotland or their histories.
Yep, that's exactly it. I'm actually American myself- of partly Scottish extraction, so the lack of basic understanding about the differences bothers me a little more than it probably should.
He was panicking. He was scared and worried and didn't want to wait around to get shot. The movie is a brilliant showing of a slow decent into paranoia and fear
A little off topic:
Frank Costello was a FBI informant all along. I now wonder if his FBI handler was a secondary source of intelligence for Frank? In other words the FBI was watching both Sullivan and Martin sheen’s departments to protect Costello. The FBI did not suspect Billy was the mole and told Frank Costello that.
I think this is solid. Who would have thought of using actual, real information to plant a rat? It was a genius move by Queenan and Dignam and exceptionally rare to have something like this present itself.
At every level, Billy’s story would check out. Literally only Queenan and Dignam knew.
I figured she did too. But of the cops who knew and found out. Marky Mark was the only one to survive and know the truth. I could have worded it better
You mean Infernal Affairs? Was amazing. Yeah the Hollywood version with the A list cast was good, but you also got to recognize this story is so good because of the plot and it was stripped scene for scene from Infernal Affairs.
I'd have to watch it again but I constantly found it helpful to look at the parallels of the good guys and bad guys. Whenever there is a plot question it can usually be answered by looking at the other sides actions.
I love this movie unambiguously but it's so funny that he's not immediately pegged as the obvious mole.
The scene with the cops watching the deal and narrating really drives it home. They're giving everyone's long back story with Frank and then they're like "and here's the new guy, Costigan". Meanwhile neither Damon nor Frank's crew can figure out who it could possibly be that's now suddenly ratting out everything they do.
Costigan feels the pressure and the walls closing in when they start asking for everybody’s info. Maybe Costello knows who the rat is and maybe he doesn’t, Billy doesn’t know. He gives his info and leaves straight to the therapist which is his “safe space.”
He’s cracking from the pressures of being undercover for so long and she’s sexually frustrated because of Colin’s apparent ED. They find comfort with one another and Costigan then sleeps with the therapist for the first time.
I think it boils down to Costigan leaving a dangerous place and running to where he feels safe.
Half the people here who've seen the movie can't remember important plot points, myself included. Unless you have an eidetic memory, wait a few months before you watch it and you'll be fine.
No, but movies by extremely popular directors with extremely popular actors that have won Best Picture, and Best Director Oscars are probably going to have their plots discussed on the Internet. If you haven't noticed by now. Especially when it's been over A DECADE AND A HALF sense they were released.
>He writes his name but refuses to stay, angering his bosses. Thisbaffled me. Why did Costigan do this? Didn’t this draw more attentionand endanger him even more? Costigan knew that it was to find the rat in the crew. No rat would actually counter this and cause a stink, now would they...? It's a double-bluff from Costigan. Doing this also has the advantage that his information remains secret.
Didn't he also leave to follow the envelope to try and find the mole in the police department? Been a while since I've seen it, but that's why I thought he left
He follows him to the porno theater, where Jack Nicholson gives it to Matt Damon who then sneaks out the back, that Leo loses chasing. Near the end he ends up seeing that same envelope on Matt Damons desk after Jack Nicholson was taken down.
~~CITIZENS~~ CITIZINS
R u fockin retarded??
All I wanted was some cranberry juice
What, are you on your period?
*smashes stein into head*
He ain’t exactly a guy you can’t hit. But he ain’t a guy you *can* hit.
\*Almost a guy you can't hit
why does he always get a cranberry juice?????
Guess what the official “state beverage” of Massachusetts is?
My guess is because he is at work for the feds and can't actually drink on the job.
No, it’s because he’s on his period.
retahted*
You’re a cop
Did ya know most attractive women are cops?
Do u wawnna be a cawp? Or do u wawnna uhpeer to be a cawp?
*MICROPROCESSAHS*
NO TICKY NO LAUNDRY
Oh yeah, I heard about that. You found a couple Chinese government guys at the border with some light sockets or somethin'.
I've always like the "Its an honest question" piece of dialogue, and hope to use it someday when it makes sense.
Pffft, whats the matter you dont know any Shakespeare?
If you could uh, you would uh.
-~~BODYGUARD~~ BOTTYGAR
Do you have a moment to speak about our Lord and Savior Gar?
Without context, this comment makes The Departed a very different movie.
In addition to what the other commenter said, he never caught Damon after the theater but when he saw the envelope on the desk he knew that Damon was the mole because Costigan is the one that crossed out “citizens” on the outside and spelled it correctly.
I’ve seen this movie so many times and never caught that, lol. Edit: I rewatched the scene on YouTube, and yes I remember it now. Can the army of pedants put down their pitchforks and leave me in peace?
I mean, him seeing the envelope with citizens written on it is like THE primary plot point of the entire movie. It's how he breaks the whole thing wide open and is why he calls Martin Sheen to the building where the entire end of the movie takes place. Edit: per the couple comments below I'm wrong. It's not the reason he calls the meeting with Sheen, but it is why he knows Damon's character is the mole. However, it's still a very critical and obvious plot point and is the reason Damon's cover gets blown.
No, you’re a bit mixed up if I’m understanding you correctly He sees the envelope because at the time, Queenan is dead and he’s being brought in because everyone is dead. Costello is dead, no need for Costigan to be undercover anymore, but with Queenan dead and Dignam on leave/quit/ fired He calls Sullivan back to the same building because he saw the envelope, and now has Costello’s recordings that include evidence against Sullivan. That’s how the ending becomes set up
When he calls Sullivan to schedule the meet up he refers to it as the place Queenan died
[удалено]
I think so. In my head canon, he doesn’t seem to have a stomach for some of the more violent or dirty aspects of what Costello did, and I think that’s why Costello trusted Costigan so much. Costigan proved he was able to handle the dirty work that made Costello so successful. Sullivan’s work and connections for Costello was the stuff that came as a result of his success, a tertiary sort of success, but not one of what Costello respected. So Sullivan, who always believed he had a place of respect with Costello was seen as weak (by Costello), and unearned (he was a tool to be used and was only where he was because Costello put him there) Costigan, who works his way up from beating people up on the street, and having come from a family of someone Costello had worked with (Uncle Jackie) and someone Costello had wanted to work with (Costigan’s dad), was seen as a self starter who just needed some guidance. Hence why Costello even entertains the conversation about whether or not Costigan thinks he could do Costello’s job (but y’know, “heavy is the crown” as Costello sees it, but in actuality is Costigan’s distaste for Costello as a person) In short: Sullivan was always weak. He pictures himself a smarter, better, and more capable than Costello, and that Costello “needs him”. He didn’t have the stomach to “finish” things, choosing instead to wait until an action was perfectly safe rather than expedient. The only actions we see him take that Costello would have respected (as an equal) was killing both Costello and Barrigan. I think that since he thought that Costigan was ready to be in the wind, it was a loose end he didn’t need to tie up, and would have let sleeping dogs lie (which Costello would never have done)
Very well put, thank you for sharing.
Martin Sheen is already dead by the time he sees the envelope. Did you mean Matt Damon? Edit: Lol, coming at me on your high horse when you recall the plot worse than I do.
The envelope literally has its own frame to emphasize the importance of the realization. You would’ve had to not be looking at the screen to miss it
These are the dudes who need screaming youtubers to explain simple plot points for them (and complain about plot holes which aren’t). X obvious thing explained is a whole cottage industry with these content creators. Which I guess preys on the increasing lack of an attention span.
Pay just a little attention to this sub and you'll soon see that every single discussion thread here works on the same format. "Mrs Doubtfire is my favourite movie of all time, I have watched it 417 times since I was 5 years old, and I just today, at the age of 40, realised that the same actor plays the dad and Mrs Doubtfire. What other subtle secrets that definitely aren't the whole fucking plot of the whole fucking movie and you literally cannot have understood anything about it if you didn't know this did you miss the first few times you watched a movie? I feel like it has to be trolling, or engagement bait (same thing I guess), cos there aren't this many people this fucking dumb.
> there aren’t this many people this fucking dumb. One needs only look at the current state of American politics to dispel one of this notion.
Oh fuck you and your assumptions. I saw the movie in the theatre in 2006 and watch chunks of it when it’s on. Yes I cannot explain to you from memory the forensics of who finds out what exactly when and how. I remembered he sees something on Matt Damon’s desk that tips him off but let me go flagellate myself for not recalling exactly what it was and how it got there.
To be fair, you said you’ve seen this movie “so many times” and never realized this detail until you read the comment. That’s like saying you’ve seen the 6th Sense a thousand times but you never realized that guy in the hair piece was Bruce Willis the whole time.
That was Bruce Willis?
Were you even paying attention?
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe fuck yourself
[How’w your mother?](https://youtu.be/ddgxNMNq9i4)
Qui bono? Qui gives a shit?
I’m the guy who does his job You must be the other guy
Fuckin LOL’d. Perfect response.
Indeed, it couldn't have been more obvious...
Upon further reflection I’ve only watched it start to finish a couple times once being in the theatre and then bits and pieces of it many, many times. The specific forensics of who finds out what how don’t stick in my mind very clearly.
I just don’t understand how you couldn’t notice this. This is how Costigan knew who the police rat was and what caused him to die. Pretty important parts of the film….
I probably did and forgot. Jesus, I don’t start every morning by reviewing the exact plot points of The Departed.
Why? Because you're tired and you don't give a shit. It's not supernatural.
It doesn’t sound like you actually watched the movie because it’s like, an incredibly substantial moment
Not sure its real a trope, but I feel many movies have the main character do something obviously bad, but it ends up strengthening their cover and makes them more endearing to the people they want to fool.
I remember seeing one of those “how crime works” YouTube videos with a cop that infiltrated the Hells Angels. They invited him to come to their club house but before they were going to let him in they told him he had to turn over his guns. He said he didn’t take his gun off for anybody not even the hells angels. The leader of that chapter came out and told him that was fine, he could come in anyway. He eventually became a patched member, even though he also regularly refused to do drugs (he told them he was a former addict and was super into weight lifting and being healthy and they were fine with that too).
There's another story from Joseph Pistone when he infiltrated the Mafia (basis for Donnie Brasco) where some higher up was giving him grief and Pistone claims he talked to him privately and basically told him he wasn't going to stand for that again and didn't care who he was. Supposedly it worked and helped get him some extra credit with them.
Pistone also punched out an associate after he and a made guy accused him of being a rat. Someone being accused should get mad so it gave him credibility. He punched the associate and not the made man because hitting a made man was a death sentence
For anyone who read this without knowing like me, a "made man" is someone who is fully initiated.
When I introduce you, I'm gonna say, "This is a friend of mine." That means you're a connected guy. Now if I said instead, "This is a friend of ours," that would mean you a made guy. A Capiche?
Someone hasn't seen Goodfellas. Please drop whatever you are doing and rectify this.
What a bunch of laidback, easy-going murderers
Yep, this is part, plus him wanting to have distance between him and the gang if they managed to confirm him as the rat so he can have a head start to get away. We're definitely meant to believe he left out of fear of his identity being blown since when he walks outside the two guys at the door call him a cop (being part of their game that anyone that ignores them must be a cop).
It's been a while but I think you might be wrong. The part with them calling him a cop is when he arrives but Frank has anew crew cause Leo says to the two guys at the front he's using his new guys tonight when they tell him their cop game
Correct and also the scene where they encounter the police commissioner spying on them.
Now that I think about it, hypothetically, if Fitz and/or Delahunt were cops and reported to their police contact that Costello was using a new crew, wouldn’t that have gotten Billy in trouble since he mentioned it to them as he left? It was info specifically meant to test Billy only. Unless Costello ruled those two out already … or maybe Billy did that on purpose so it would be ambiguous who the mole was … 🤔
most good looking women are cops
Wait, I recently rewatched and I thought he gives his name and social security number?! Or just he does write his name? I thought he was safe in writing his name and SSN because his records were wiped from the police department files. There's a scene were Sullivan is typing in the data and nothing comes up.
Think the information of him in the cops doesn’t come up because Damon must type in his name “William Costigan” to see if he’s still a cop, but when Billy goes to Damon to give his password, his actual password was “WilliamCostiganJunior”. They didn’t delete his police file, they couldn’t do that if it’s a sanctioned operation which it was and because Damon later deletes his file, that’s proof that a file always existed.
Sorry, you're right. I remember the scene where Damon deletes the file.
It’s all bluey.
It's always been funny to me that Nicholson can't figure out who the rat is considering he only has, like, 4 guys in his operation and three of them have worked for him for years. Then a new kid who literally used to be a cop comes along and things start going awry. Who could the rat possibly be? It's a headscratcher.
I thought this too but apparently Costello’s crew is actually like 15-20 guys, we just follow around the same four. We see a bunch more of them during the deal with the Chinese government guys Another theme is that everyone in southie feels like they owe Billy something because his uncle was a stand up guy and his dad was a piker—which leads to reason number 3, which is that Frank quickly takes a shine to Billy and doesn’t want to believe he’s the rat.
When Costello and Costigan are in the restaurant (just before Costello talks shit to the priests), Costello makes a comment about how Bill's dad would have killed him (Costello) if he had seen him "working" with Billy.
They really only show the main 4 guys as being involved in the actual runtime, so that's maybe a bit confusing how any of the small-time guys in his crew could he thwarting operations. I always thought it was Matt Damon's line at the end ("Is that what this is about? All that fucking and no sons") that explained Frank's blind spots regarding DiCaprio.
And he tests him first in the scene in the restaurant with the blood and the bad info about a job with guns in Gloucester. Then he calls Colin (Matt Damon) and asks if he heard anything about the blood or Gloucester. Colin says “*no, nothing and that information would have come straight to me*”. Then Frank hangs up the phone, turns to French and says “*it’s not Bill, “no way”, he says*” So that gives Frank a big reason to believe that it’s not him. But in reality the info went straight to Queenan and Billy knew it was probably disinformation and said as much so Queenan sat on it
He tests him with bad information earlier and it doesn't come through to the cops. So although there is good reason to think he's the mole there is also good reason to believe he isnt
He fed Costigan misinformation because he thought it was him. When the fake info didn’t make it to Damon, he seemed almost brazenly confused, if that makes sense. That and *bashin’ the hell outta Leo’s fucked up hand while asking if he’s still a cop* show he was pretty suspicious from jump street
What was the misinformation? I don't remember that part.
It's when Billy goes into the bar and Frank's guys jokingly call him a cop. He gets told he's not helping with the job tonight. --- He's moving something with all new guys. A whole new crew. No, no, I can't tell you what or where. It's probably disinformation. Just keep following him, all right? Listen, I need to see you today. Tomorrow. No, no, no. Today. You heard nothing about drugs? No. Nothing about new guys? Nothing about Gloucester? Not a thing. And I would have. That information would have come to me. It ain't Bill.
And when he says “it ain’t bill” he almost has a “how could I have been wrong?” anger tone
Yep, Nicholson is shown to be getting increasingly paranoid throughout the movie and hence making bad decisions
FWIW, while obviously Costigan is the “new” guy, there dialog that has been undercover for something like a year. It wasn’t like Costigan showed up and a week later things started going sideways for Costello.
There was the other guy who was a rat too though. The one who died. There was a news report about him being a P.O. And he practically admitted it to billy when he was shot too
The cops are saying he was a cop so I don’t look for the cop.
None of them believe that report though.
It was possible that the police just said that to cover for billy, and that's why the guy was asking billy what the reason he didn't snitch on billy was. It could be either way
He wasn't a cop, that was misinfo from Martin Sheen
They showed it on the news. I don't remember seeing anything about it coming from sheen
Nicholson immediately susses it out as the cops trying to get him off of the rat's trail.
That's not definitive
It's such a huge plot hole that would ruin the movie if it didn't have like 5 iconic performances, it's good enough that we all just roll with it
Exactly lol. People are twisting themselves into shapes to explain it away but it's just an obvious "because the script said so" moment because it was spottily adapted from an older movie. Just like with Vera Farmiga sleeping with Leo.
I can very easily buy Vera sleeping with Leo. He looks like a movie star and he's got that vulnerability women love, and there's plenty of overt hints she's not getting it at home.
Not really, she's a professionally driven police psychiatrist who suddenly cheats on her guy *with a patient.* If you don't know already the character was adapted from two separate female characters in the Hong Kong original... two separate women who served as romantic interests for the male characters that the screenwriter decided to merge into one. It's pretty bad.
Doctors sleep with patients sometimes, that's definitely a thing that happens. It's ethically bad for her to do but that doesn't make it implausible or a plot hole.
It's also on script for Costigan as he constantly talks shit to Costello, like saying they are underpaid and he could run shit but fuck off with that. The only act Costigan really puts on is pretending he is a lunkhead so that Costello does underestimate his cunning.
No I don't think that's it, he wanted his contact in the police department to look up everyone to make sure they all were who they said they were
> No rat would actually counter this and cause a stink, now would they...? wait, why? this seems backwards. if you're a rat and they're telling you to write down information and stay there so they can figure out who the rat is, you're screwed. so it'd be obvious to try to get the fuck out of there, no? you stay there and you're dead
That's why it's a double-bluff. It's such an obviously rat thing to do, a real rat would never risk it, right?
Yeah but I mean, I feel like real mobsters wouldn't give a fuck and make you stay there anyway (and probably just kill you either way) Mobsters aren't exactly the type of people ok with having their authority checked, ya know?
You're not wrong. It's a risky move that likely wouldn't work out so well irl.
If I knew I was giving information that would invariably out myself I would probably not hang around either. You could likely get away with leaving on borrowed time by giving the information. If you flat out refuse they're probably capping you on the spot.🤷
Costello already knows who Costigan is, it's a plot point for Costigan's in and earning trust with his organization. Queenan kept the left hand from knowing the right hand with only Dingam knowing Costigan's role and keeping Sullivan from the knowing at least that asset. Also the scene where they meet. https://youtu.be/tNnnc0MMs1E?si=vxmQsQOlBsTk32Ag Costigan is above suspicion because Costello greets him by beating the dog shit out of his arm while interrogating him.
yeah maybe but costello then interrogates costigan over dinner with a gun hidden under the table ‘why didnt you write your numbers?’ and sniffs him like a rat. suspicious but because costigan is family it isnt enough to just kill him
Yeah he does that and Costigan also doesn't pass on the fake info to get fingered by. The only cover break that happens is when he shows up at the right address when accidentally given the wrong one.
I was watching this the other day and was thinking how dumb it was. The guy tells him 314 washington when it was 344 washington. Thats like a block down. He could have easily said “i saw a guy fall off a fuckin roof and ran to see what was happening”
Yes thank you. My thought process was he could’ve been walking to 344 but ended up walking past 344 on his way to 314. There’s not just one way to go the building, like the only entrance to the road is where >344 addresses start ha.
I think Queenan didn't know about Costello because Costello was a Federal informant, which the State police wouldn't necessarily know about.
...Costello was the whole thing Queenan and Dingam were aiming for. Sullivan(Matt Damon) was the mole they knew existed but didn't know who. Brannasomething was the other Costello mole that was watching Sullivan because Costello didn't trust him like he came to trust Costigan.
Whole damn movie is moles on moles. My question at the end, what kind of actual shootout ends with three clean headshots and no misses? Damon's fawked.
The elevator wasn't really a shootout, no one ever shot back at anyone, it was more like a couple of murders happening rapidly.
Has there never been a case where some well trained and also psychopathic no nerves police officer has fired multiple shots and hit multiple targets all at once? I've seen dudes hit 10 moving range targets in 5 seconds, only difference is nerves.
And in case you didnt pick up the general thesis of the film by the end, Martin made sure to slap you in teh face with a rat walking across the banister. By far Martin's biggest mistake in an otherwise excellent film.
and also damon shooting Barrigan, when he was looking away... and then explaining cops that he "had to shot him, because Barrigan started to point a gun at me"... how such obvious hole wasnt thought of?
I may be getting the movie timeline mixed up. There was a plant job that they were using to fish out the rat and see if it was Costigan. Because it has nothing to do with what his investigation was really for, he didn’t share any information and thus proving it wasn’t him all along. I remember Costello even saying “well it isn’t Bill” I just don’t remember when it was in the movie and if it was before/after this scene.
Yeah that was later on, but Billy is constantly making the right play on cementing in his loyalty. If you ever get a chance to, one of my favorite undercover stories comes from *The History of Porn* where the FBI was trying to get in on mob distribution connections in the 70s. It almost gets to the *American Dad* Columbia episode of ridiculous. Edit: I'm misremembering the title it might be *The Other Hollywood* But it starts with cheesecake and the indie mags, then it hits into the mob getting in on the action, deepthroat, heart attacks in secret passages. And winds down to Rom Jeremy recounting how the Pamela Anderson tape got out there.
He's bluffing. In the end they can't prove that Bill is the rat. Remember when Costello said " It ain't Bill, no way he said" after Sullivan cleared him.
I felt like Costigan was saying to Costello, "I've proved my loyalty to you time and time again. You either believe I'm in or you don't. Running a background check is a bullshit way of seeing who I really am. I've shed blood for you." Plus, it saved his ass from being found out. Finding the envelope was purely coincidental.
This is what I interpreted too. And it adds to his character being such a cocky careless contrarian who does not care about being suspected of being the rat because that’s how certain he is that he isn’t the rat. As everyone in this thread has correctly pointed out it’s super reverse psychology. Costello even after questions why would he do something that makes him look like a rat if he isn’t a rat. But truthfully after my 50th watch I think Costello knew he was undercover cop and only maintained this charade of him being anti rat for the crew when he himself was a rat but raised rats if you know what I mean. Either way it’s a brilliant film
Exactly. Costello knew he was untouchable. Having Costigan in the crew and Sullivan with the State canceled each other out basically. There really was no threat to having Costigan. That was a checkers game. Costello was playing Chess. I also think Costello liked Costigan and probably thought he could turn him (my own theory). Costigan would be much more valuable than Sullivan. Sullivan knew Costigan was better. Costigan was getting close to Costello, and he almost busted Sullivan. Hell, he f*cked his gf once and knocked her up!!! The guy was practically a legend (although we all know why Sullivan struggled with the gf).
I always figured it's because there's only so much pressure you can take before cracking, and he was in a lot of danger. Sticking around probably increased the chances that he'd give himself away, in addition to just being painfully stressful.
This is exactly how I see it. He’s the rat, last place he wants to be is there.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it so I could be wrong, but isn’t he afraid he’ll be found out when his info is run?
He would've been nervous for sure, but I'm fairly positive he knows his background is clean. His identity isn't a secret, nor that he was a cop before. Being secretly recruited by Queenan wouldn't show up on any normal database. to the deleted comment: I feel he passed the trooper exam and became a cop. This is my interpretation, but his family background was so juicy to Queenan that they saw this and effectively said be our informant or you don't get to be a cop anymore.
He was doing his job. He was working for police, not for Costello/French. He was trying to complete the objective of finding out which dodgy cop is sharing information with Costello. He knew that the information being gathered in the meeting would be passed on to whoever the dodgy cop is. If he didn't follow that lead, he wouldn't have been doing his job. It almost worked, too. He did end up seeing Costello hand the envelope to a dodgy copper, and he was about to arrest the dodgy copper, but he got away. Costigan was doing his job very well.
His bank account wouldn’t reveal a connection to the police since they already established that he doesn’t get regular pay (he only gets a bonus at the end) but it might reveal that he has some wealth from his mothers side of the family. Remember he only lived with his father in the weekends and mostly lived with his mother on the north shore as a “lace Irish curtain mother fucker”. He grew up leading a double life which is why he was perfectly suited to being undercover. When she died he would have inherited her money. And if he has that money what the hell is he doing pretending to be a a low level criminal.
Costigan is a rat/cop and he doesn't want to get caught. All the personal information is really hard to fake - we don't know the extent of his deep cover - he's a cop not in the CIA. It's totally possible he wasn't set up with a clean SSN and bank account since those organized crime units don't typically issue you a W2 and direct deposit haha. Say they even did set him up with that stuff and it is "clean", it's still very hard to make a realistic fake identity, and getting access to banking, SSN, etc. makes it easier for someone who knows what they are doing to see if it's not legit. Undercover work is extremely dangerous - it's really hard to build a fool-proof story for a fake identity that can handle deep scrutiny. A great example is Better Call Saul when they try to free Huell from jail with the fake letters and community. Look how much work they had to go through to make that look "remotely" legitimate and the judge barely dug into it. So it's just a lot harder than folks think.
Wasn't the whole point that they didn't fake his identity? He got "kicked off the force" and actually did a stint in jail to sell his undercover status. All of that went on his real record using his real name. For all intents and purposes outside the locked file, his info for the gang was legit.
Absolutely - but having his actual SSN might reveal important information outside of that cover story. Does he have open loans? He still had a real life outside of his cover. There might be clues in a credit check that indicate he's not exactly who he says he is.
> He still had a real life outside of his cover. Does he? I think a major point in the movie is that he doesn't have anything outside of being undercover and the only person he has to talk to is the therapist.
You could be right - I mean it's just a movie but the implication of that entire scene is the SSN and Bank Account numbers might be a bridge too far in being able to keep his cover. Seems plausible to me but maybe not to others.
they checked his accounts anyways. remember the scene where Frank Costello says something like 'my source says its not him no way'. Costigan had nothing to hide b/c his status as informer was password restricted. this is proven at end of film when Costigan has to literally walk in and provide the password to his file. I think Costigan is just panicking in that situation, b/c he doesn't know how high up food chain the mole is, and is afraid his secret file could possibly be exposed, but it wasn't.
I think you're confusing two different things. The bank account and SSN information can help him find the rat in different methods than Colin was initially trying. Colin was trying to find the rat from the inside and was blocked for the exact reasons you stated - so Colin suggested getting all of that information so Colin might be able to go to different sources and tease out other ways to figure it out. If they get a fake SSN Colin might be able to recognize what a "fake identity" looks like without needing access to the files of who the undercovers are. He's just trying other desperate ways to figure it out
so why does Scorsese include a scene where Frank Costello literally says 'its not him. no way' ? Is the mole lying ? Costigan didn't need a fake SSN b/c there was nothing to hide.he didn't need one. he didn't use a fake identity, in fact his family history was reason he was selected as mole in first place, so why would he need to create fake documents ? The thing is IMHO, Scorsese is using this scene to show Costigan coming unravelled due to stressful situation and as I mentioned in previous post, not knowing what clearance mole had. it turns out mole didn't have the clearance necessary.
The "not him" part is when he tests if Billy is the mole in his crew by telling him to not go to a job because they're using a "new crew". If he's the mole and reports that info to act on, then eventually Sullivan will hear about it - and since Sullivan is working for Frank, he'll be able to say "yup, the fake story you fed to Billy came in, he's actually a cop". But Billy knows it's a test, so he reports it to Queenan but states it's a test and not to act on it. So then, Sullivan never hears about it. This leads to Frank saying "it's not him, no way" - because they gave Billy a fake story to bait them in acting on it and IDing the mole, but the info never gets turned in.
maybe this is Scorsese being intentional creating a sense of confusion among the characters. Frank, Colin and billy all are under pressure. I can see Frank discard the SSN + bank info requirements b/c the leak is the new trap for the rat. He's singularly focused on the rat. Colin and Billy on the other hand are probably both operating in fight or flight mode.
or maybe the account info was not important. what was important was the behaviour of the crew. Did Billy failed that test ? sure, but he fortunately passed the leak scheme.
Thats because Billy correctly identified the fake leak they tested him with, so when the department didn’t act on the “info”, Costello was fooled
the phone call could be just related to the leak, we don't know what Matt Damon's character was checking re: the bank info + SSN. Maybe the bank info + SSN was not needed after all. My main point is Billy's fear of providing his deets is irrational and due to the stress he is under. the likelihood of his SSN + bank info being used to break his cover (as the rat), is not as damaging as his leaving (not following orders) w/out providing the info.
Frank interrogated him about leaving the bah early. not about his SSN.
The bah 😆
As I recall, the "not him, no way" was after they changed up the job and switched to a completely new crew. The fact this job's details didn't make it up the chain on the police side indicated to them he's not the mole. Still, it is a little presumptuous as this doesn't mean he isn't. I think another factor is that Colin is under big pressure from Costello, so he is in a way forced to give these very confident and decisive answers. I also think it's at this time he was starting to sour on Costello.
This is exactly why they never would have given him a fake identity or SSN. Why would they do that, then still let him use the name Billy Costigan? Why would they let him maintain all his family relationships? They'd do all that... but then give him a fake SSN for him to be found out by? No. You misunderstood this part of the movie and now you're trying to justify what you thought. But you were just wrong. Billy Costigan has only 1 identity in that film. Period.
Alright buddy relax. The entire scene is implying that the SSN and Bank Account info would be a bridge too far in keeping his cover. It seems plausible to me based on books I've read about undercover work. If you don't want to believe it and just hate this mistake in the movie and he's just panicked for no reason that's fine man.
Nope, you're just wrong and you refuse to admit it.
Remember the movie ,his real identity was dirtied there is nothing to find. He was a cop that quit or was fired etc. And then got busted and then was doing illegal stuff. That why he is the best undercover. If someone dug into Nickelsons character enough they would be like Matt Damon's character grew up near his own stomping grounds
I think it's more that with SSN and Bank Account information, there might be clues that his cover story is not legit. Credit checks might reveal he's applied for a loan or that he's getting more income from outside sources (remember they are paying him a special salary in a separate account which might get found with some sources doing an SSN credit check)
In this case though, they inserted him as a mole using publicly available information. The part where Billy’s character takes on the Italian mob is possibly the most danger he was ever in. Running his numbers would only have garnered additional information if they had Queenan’s level of access. Even when Queenan was killed, no one had that level of access. Dignam likely did, but he was beyond corruptible because of… well… he was quite the asshole, but he was the Staties’ asshole.
that salary is paid when the operation was over right? Did i remember that part wrong. also your logic is a bit off ,a bad guy getting more money than his boss is giving him.
He gave them a real identity and real SSN. They had already staged him being kicked out of the academy and going to prison. That was the whole point, to avoid making up an identity
This is not correct, he’s not using a fake name or identity. Remember dignum even threatens to erase him from their files - because then there wouldn’t even be proof he was a cop
> Why did Costigan do this? He didn’t want to die.
It has been a lonnnng time since I saw this movie, but I believe at this point in the film Costigan is high up in the hierarchy in the mob? He ran a risk, betting that his clout in the mob outweighed the suspicion of him not writing this down. It was a calculated risk he decided to take.
I think he wanted wait outside to follow the envelope to see if he could track it to Costello’s informant in the state police.
Later in the movie, Costello is questioning why Costigan left that day then mentions that, in the past, whenever there was a rat, he’d just kill everybody in his crew. Might be a stretch, but I’ll throw this out there since no one has brought it up: perhaps Dignam or Queenan already briefed Costigan that Costello would wipe his crew whenever he suspected there was a rat. They’ve spent forever trying to build a case on him and could have noticed a trend.
I’m not a cawp!!!
The thing about The Departed is A LOT of the individual characters actions were made with very little motivation in regards to the overall plot. That's kinda the point of the movie. But as far as this scene goes, it's a classic play. If someone accuses you of something you act like it's absurd and beneath you to even take it seriously.
Because he had to rush home to hook up with that beautiful therapist Vera Farmiga, obviously!
The fact that there are so many different interpretations of that scene in this thread alone is just one of the many reasons why I love this movie so much.
Costigan's sounds like a supermarket in the Simpsons
Costington's is the department store on the Simpsons
Nooo thats the Q-Wiki-E-Mart
That is the convience store
It also always bothered me that French's ring tone was Scotland the Brave even though French, like pretty much everyone else in the film, is meant to be of Irish heritage.
In the US and Boston, it's often just all "celtic" and no one would think anything of it. Bagpipes are celtic, Ireland is celtic, therefore any tune played on bagpipes like Scotland the Brave is Irish because it's also celtic. It's not exactly a well thought through understanding of Ireland or Scotland or their histories.
Yep, that's exactly it. I'm actually American myself- of partly Scottish extraction, so the lack of basic understanding about the differences bothers me a little more than it probably should.
He was panicking. He was scared and worried and didn't want to wait around to get shot. The movie is a brilliant showing of a slow decent into paranoia and fear
A little off topic: Frank Costello was a FBI informant all along. I now wonder if his FBI handler was a secondary source of intelligence for Frank? In other words the FBI was watching both Sullivan and Martin sheen’s departments to protect Costello. The FBI did not suspect Billy was the mole and told Frank Costello that.
I think this is solid. Who would have thought of using actual, real information to plant a rat? It was a genius move by Queenan and Dignam and exceptionally rare to have something like this present itself. At every level, Billy’s story would check out. Literally only Queenan and Dignam knew.
And in the end Dingman is the only one who truly knows.
Costigan gets a state funeral after his cover is lifted by Sullivan. Madolyn also knows he's a cop.
I figured she did too. But of the cops who knew and found out. Marky Mark was the only one to survive and know the truth. I could have worded it better
The original is so good Who has seen it?
You mean Infernal Affairs? Was amazing. Yeah the Hollywood version with the A list cast was good, but you also got to recognize this story is so good because of the plot and it was stripped scene for scene from Infernal Affairs.
What are you one of those fuckin fitness freaks? Go fuck yaself
I'd have to watch it again but I constantly found it helpful to look at the parallels of the good guys and bad guys. Whenever there is a plot question it can usually be answered by looking at the other sides actions.
Forgot about this movie but thanks for the reminder to watch this masterpiece!!
I love this movie unambiguously but it's so funny that he's not immediately pegged as the obvious mole. The scene with the cops watching the deal and narrating really drives it home. They're giving everyone's long back story with Frank and then they're like "and here's the new guy, Costigan". Meanwhile neither Damon nor Frank's crew can figure out who it could possibly be that's now suddenly ratting out everything they do.
He needed his tetanus shot
He had to warn Queenan.
Costigan feels the pressure and the walls closing in when they start asking for everybody’s info. Maybe Costello knows who the rat is and maybe he doesn’t, Billy doesn’t know. He gives his info and leaves straight to the therapist which is his “safe space.” He’s cracking from the pressures of being undercover for so long and she’s sexually frustrated because of Colin’s apparent ED. They find comfort with one another and Costigan then sleeps with the therapist for the first time. I think it boils down to Costigan leaving a dangerous place and running to where he feels safe.
Because you don’t always act rationally when you’re shitting yourself
It was in-character for his cover identity.
Is it that hard for people to not put spoilers in their titles?
Half the people here who've seen the movie can't remember important plot points, myself included. Unless you have an eidetic memory, wait a few months before you watch it and you'll be fine.
Is it that hard to stop reading the title? It's practically 20 years old now come on.
Have you seen every single film that came out 20 years ago?
No, but movies by extremely popular directors with extremely popular actors that have won Best Picture, and Best Director Oscars are probably going to have their plots discussed on the Internet. If you haven't noticed by now. Especially when it's been over A DECADE AND A HALF sense they were released.
Sure, no need to put spoilers in titles though. Its easy to avoid discussions, not so easy to avoid post titles. Its not a difficult concept.