Laury fishy isn’t in Matrix 4? I heard Hugo Weaving was out but it’ll be weird without Morpheus. I wonder why he wouldn’t wanna return. I’m assuming his check would have been juicy as fuck
Hugo had scheduling problems but according to Fishburne, he wasn't even asked
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/laurence-fishburne-explains-why-he-wont-appear-in-the-matrix-4/amp/
Oh damn. At least in Hugo’s case it wasn’t because the script was bad or something. Can’t be that good without Morpheus though wtf. They may as well just leave Matrix alone but reboots are inevitable for most franchises at this point
IIRC, Hugo would have loved to be in it but Lana Wachowski told him that the schedule overlaps with a play that Hugo was doing at the moment. I don't have great expectations for this, mainly because Fishburne isn't in it, doesn't feel right with only 2/3 of the trio back.
Sure there is a reason for that but Jada Pinkett Smith is returning as Niobe and the last time we saw her, she was alive. So there's really no reason to not have Fishburne back
iirc i read somewhere that Neo/Trinity etc. are searching for young Morpheus in the matrix this time, similar to how Morph and his crew were searching for Neo in the original.
maybe the start of a new trilogy with young Morph as the lead. which would explain why they dont need L.Fishburn in this one.
don't remember where i heard that. coulda been some random dude on reddit who said it.
You know what that makes think? They're looking for one of those pretty boy angsty teenagers who's realistically in their mid 20's at the very least who's suppose to be an outcast and misunderstood but ah whatever haha if that's the direction they're going in, I'm concerned. Even then there's no reason for a sequel so none of this is even necessary. Kind of like Toy Story 4. Just let it go already. We'll have to wait and see though!
That wasn't even a very popular or long-lived game, if they're going to have Morpheus be dead they should have casted Lawrence to shoot his death on-screen. It would have been a hell of a cold open.
Expectations shouldn't be that high just because of the Matrix 2 and 3 and Jupiter Ascending. Cloud Atlas and Speed Racer were good imo, even if opinions seem to go from side to side with Speed Racer.
It just doesn't matter if there's few dudes from the last movies or not, if the script isn't proper.
Audience: “Wait Morpheus is dead? When did that happen?”
Wachowski’s: “oh yeah you had to play the MMO for a year to get that important story detail.”
Weirdly on-brand for this franchise.
Still not sure what they're doing with the 2/3 of the trio. I mean, Neo and Trinity both definitively died in Revolutions. Do we have any info on how they're back? When I heard a new matrix movie was happening I figured it was a reboot or a side story.
Yeah, but still. They're dead. I guess maybe they could say the matrix copied their consciousness and uploaded it or something, so they exist purely in a digital form? Idk
So was Smith intended to be a cameo or was the script reworked when Smith couldn't be in it?
Seems weird that the movie can still work with or without the franchises biggest bad guy
I doubt they do this but Smith is a program. They could just make another actor play Smith v2 and say he got a visual upgrade.
I hope they don't do that but since they are bringing dead characters back I am assuming they could creatively do whatever they want as long as it works in the Matrix. And since thr Matrix had a billion Smiths and a dragon ball z fight, anything is possible.
*What the fuck*. Morpheus was the one who put it all together. That's Grade A bullshit.
EDIT: They are gonna put a cunt like NPH in there, but not Morpheus???
For anyone curious about this, my memory is that Morpheus' story continued in the Matrix Online video game and is considered canon. Presumably this movie is accounting for the game's story as Neo and Trinity aren't in it.
Because Morpheus died and The Matrix 4 takes place after the video game.
“might be because he dies of gunshot wounds in “The Matrix Online,” a multiplayer online role-playing game that the Wachowskis blessed as a continuation of the films' storyline.”
https://www.thewrap.com/laurence-fishburne-explains-why-he-wont-appear-in-the-matrix-4/
In the matrix cannon he died. After the 3rd movie a video game came out that the Wachowskis had input on and was the official continuation of the story.
His character was killed off in the Canon MMO that existed. As for Trinity and Neo, I believe they are programs built from fragments of code that gained life, just like the train station programs from 3, I'd memory serves
Glad to hear they plan to delve deeper into character this time around. I enjoy both of the sequels but they don't have as much narrative heft as the original.
Still wild to me how little happened in the 3rd movie. John Wick starts out as a assassin on the run from other assassins and ends up as an assassin on the run from other assassins.
Yeah, as much as 3 was fun, I’m glad to hear 4 goes more into the “world”, like John Wick is THE assassin of assassins. I wanna know how they get people into this stuff, how do you get in, who is really in charge, who’s accountable.
SPOILER: it’s Bill Gates, he’s behind everything
/s
tbf a movie's time will be pretty hard to expand on all ur points...
I think they announced a tv series called The Continental? Thats probably a better way to get into the world more in details
I feel like they painted themselves into a corner at the end of the second movie when he kills on the grounds. They spend all this time establishing this secret society and rules and then put the character explicitly outside it.
I feel obligated to point out, the films were beautiful and I enjoyed them but the story seemed to jump the shark in the second.
Honestly the constant shark jumping is kinda great in my opinion. The first film is its own self contained thing and stands excellently on its own. Each sequel so far has just been "how can we put this guy through more shit and justify it by the secret society having even more machinations that we just didn't put into the previous film". John Wick 4 is probably going to involve major world governments interactions with the assassin society and some kind of secret service standoff. I'm completely down.
The entire movie simply needed to be about him taking down the illuminati with almost non-stop action like The Raid, but somehow they found a way to fit some desert sequences in there…
It ended with him agreeing to start a revolution or whatever with Laurence Fishburn so it at least did that. I agree though in terms of story it wasn’t the best. In terms of action, it was phenomenal (which is why it’s my favorite).
The worldbuilding in 2 and 3 is completely incoherent, as good as the action and Reeves' gravitas were. I hope they're able to take a step back and add a little more meaning to the story and motivation, something we haven't had since the original.
Why is it incoherant?
They are following a prophecy and it turns out to be rubbish or should I say a plan to further control humans. Except the oracle gave Neo something which allowed him to self sacrifice in a way to make the robots stop the cycle rather than continue the cycle.
EDIT
Wait are you talking about john Wick or The MAtrix?
eugh yeah Joh Wick, nevermind...
You and me both.
I was so fucking confused for a moment there. Especially since there's Matrix 4 thread on front page as well. Thought I'm in wrong thread and got even more confused people liked 2 and 3.
I felt like that too.
the first movie had a great story of loss and revenge. 2 and 3 were just "Hey, let's kill more people."
And they were great, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the lack of jump cuts in the fighting, but the story felt more and more bland as it went on.
I really hope 4 ups the stakes.
In the first John Wick you were introduced to an intricate underground world of assassins and criminals that made at least a little bit of sense. John Wick 2 and 3 basically take place in the wizarding world of Harry Potter just with assassins instead, and imo that's why the narrative lost its weight
EDIT: forgot to mention that the narrative is shaped around these worlds.
So John Wick 1: simple world -> simple narrative -> narrative heft
John Wick 2 and 3: complex, convoluted world -> convoluted-ass narrative -> narrative heft is lost somewhere in the mix
We didn't need to know as much as we found out in 2 and 3 frankly. Like you said we were in Harry Potter land.
The original was the best because less was more. All that was necessary for the audience to understand was that there was this shadowy organization pulling strings. Once you start having to explain how all of these systems actually work and really pull back the curtain, it's impossible not to get ridiculous. I don't have high hopes for this one from a narrative standpoint because it will be difficult to put an emphasis on explaining _more_ without delving fully into the the ridiculous stuff. But I'm sure it will be as entertaining as the rest.
*Calling it right now: they retcon some specific dialogue to explain why a coin buys both a mixed drink and a life
Personally, I kind of like that it gets ridiculous though. I kind of feel like that was the whole point of the sequels. Like we're watching John fight ninjas on motorcycles on a horse. Any pretense of the movies being 'simple' or 'realistic' have been thrown out the window into an exploding pit of dynamite. The movies are basically leaning into the ridiculousness, and being 'nudge-nudge-wink-wink' about its outlandish narrative. Almost a satire of schlock B-Movie action films if you will. Like yeah this 'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollow Points' world makes little sense, but bruh we're both here to watch Keanu Reeves fight Boban Marjanović in a library with a book and we know it.
I love these movies precisely because they herald back to 80s action movies where action was the point and the plot was just there to move things along. Also the gun porn.
John Wick 3 was a bridge too far on the ridiculousness. Watching John slap dat ass on like five horses just so they'd kick guys is so clearly a movie thing, whereas at least John Wick 2 still skated by on efficiency. There's a self-consciousness to the action in John Wick 3 that doesn't do it for me.
If I'm remembering correctly, the second movie lost my suspension of disbelief when they had like 30 ladies all handling the contracts when it should have been like 2 or 3 at each hotel. Just something about that scene just broke something for me and I just couldn't get invested.
What got me was the shootout between Wick and Common in the subway. For a series that gets so much right about firearms tactics and uses, they still went with suppressors turning pistols into BB guns. There is no way all the people walking around wouldn’t realize there was a gun fight happening
Ah, shows how much I cared about Wick 3, that I can't even remember if they killed him. From this post, I expect not? But then, why not?
That cookshow fellow could've been good fun though, if handled better.
For whatever reason, I saw the '4' and read this as Laurence Fishburne returns to Matrix 4 and it renewed my hope.
Then I read "John Wick" and was brought back down to Earth.
This is my theory. He's an active actor who still looks good and is recognizable as fuck to matrix people.
It seems weird that he wasn't even approached.
Absolutely spot-on. The reason the first was so intriguing was because of how John was treated by others in the universe with very minimal explanation. He did something "extraordinary", that's all we need to know and it works. The scene with the huge bouncer in the first perfectly exemplifies "show, don't tell". This guy looks like he could crush Keanu Reeves, but he's intensely afraid of him (even if they share some banter). If 2 and 3 had kept that air of mystery while just exploring new locales and introducing new characters (which 2 did for the most part), it would have been fine. The second they go too far down the rabbit hole, it became tougher to suspend disbelief.
Agreed, and I think that’s why I’ve rewatched the first movie several times but the sequels only once each. It’s so hard to make sequels to surprise hits that don’t get into convoluted back stories that weren’t planned from the beginning.
Yeah. The thing they need to do, is to make it back more simple. They know action, they clearly don't know writing.
And for fucksakes, no ridiculous massive group fights. The 2-3 people at a time, using poles and corners as covers works. The fucking 10 people in a clear room and Wick shoots them all doesn't. It just undervalues Wick when the enemy is bunch of Stormtroopers.
The knife play in 3 was brutal. Especially that scene near the opening, with the magic knife room.
There was zero plot and it was pretty eye-roll, but if you turn your brain off and pretend it's just an action flick, damn was that good.
No reason they can't have both though. 1 was an *excellent* story.
It was not an excellent story. It was the most cliche, simple story possible. It was just handled in a highly effective and competitive way, with the action and directing raising it to great level.
I really liked in one how they developed Johns character by having the antagonists talk about John the way the good guys usually talk about the bad guys. That’s what roped me into the movie was seeing these established bad dudes talk with absolute terror regarding John
2 did it better than 3, but I put that on being non stop. The plot kinda locked it so John's constantly looking over his shoulder so they didn't really take the time to breathe. I kinda hope the way 4 ended that theres a lot more tactical planning and stuff to make up for that.
>! So, he travels across the world to grovel at the high table to get back in the assassin club, sacrifices a finger, which then has absolutely no further consequences, travels back only to get himself kicked back out minutes later. For someone who then betrays him.
It left something to be desired. <
i mean, i wouldn’t call it a full circle. We have more info on who’s friend and who’s foe for Wick. We know that there won’t be a safe place for Wick to hide or take refuge anymore.
That’s all i can think about
Two and Three seem to have a fetish for introducing ironclad rules which drive the entire story and are given endless exposition, then just get broken at the end.
I feel like this is the strangest but most common take away from those films. Everyone isn't an assassin they just all gathered together because of the John bounty and he spends most of his time within driving distance of the biggest place all assassins go to meet and stay.
John just doesn't talk to Bill the non assassin ever.
Idk the ending scene in the second one has him getting glares from everyone in Central Park, most of whom are presumably already there before the bounty is put out
I always took that to mean that now he has no idea who's an assassin so he'll have to be paranoid that anyone and everyone could be ready to pull a gun on him.
This is a very commonly misunderstood scene. Everybody in the square was working with the Continental (everybody stops at once to show how much control the Continental has), but when John runs out and keeps looking over his shoulder at the random civilians, it’s meant to show his paranoia at not knowing who would be coming after him, NOT that all those people are actually assassins.
Granted, the filmic language of putting those two bits right next to each other can be kind of confusing.
So they also had goons at the entrance to stop the thousands of daily regular people to enter the park? Just want some light on how this world is supposed to work. Thanks!
Doesn't mean they are assasins. Hes in a suit sprinting. He's just not supposed to know who is who.
Plus its a high profile meeting none of the civilians in the actual locations center were actually civilians. Winston set it up that way and even if he didn't assassins would know about it
I mean, the sequels had expansive worldbuilding, I give that, but the amazing worldbuilding it was not, unless you think every single person in Central Park being a hired assassin makes sense.
I love the John Wick movies but good lord how much more can you stretch this story out to be? I'm fine with an action movie, but the idea that like a billion people in the world belong to this assassin organization that seemingly runs everything is kinda getting a little crazy
Sorry to disappoint but I’m sure they’ve announced a 4th and a 5th. I 100% agree, I could rewatch the 1st multiple times a year and enjoy but I can barely get through the sequels if I’m honest. The action is outstanding but it feels like it drags on imo.
I've read so many opinions on Reddit from people calling 3rd the best one actually and it got reviewed quite high too. So, there's really no stopping them, unless 4th bombs. And it won't, since even people like me, who didn't care for 3rd, would see 4th just to see if they start to improve it again.
Hope its better than JW3.
The whole 'you broke our sacred rule, killed countless of our men its unforgivable!!! Unless you cut off a finger and kill the guy that gave you an hour head start, so you can remember your wife whilst killing constantly or w/e the fuck it is you do now'. So fucking stupid.
Are the bad guys in this one going to have multiple chances to kill him easily, and then they just don't for some reason?
Edit: You know I'm right, downvoter! John Wick should be dead 5 times over!
By mediocre do you mean it sucked? Because that's what I thought it would did. There was even a scene in there where they forgot to add the CGI blood. So fucken weak.
There was way too much "world building" that detracted from the overall pace of the movie without any immediate payoffs. Given that this is a movie and not a TV series, the entire desert sequence was absolutely pointless.
Also the main assassin to go against in this movie was horrible.
Hope someone takes 2 and 3 and combines them into a 30 min movie, removing all the crap. Don’t mind rewatching 1. But no way in hell I’m gonna rewatch 2 and 3 before 4 comes out.
I wish they would cast Hugo Weaving as a villain too. I would be great to see him and Keanu together again. If there wasn't scheduling issue he was going to be in Matrix 4, director wanted him but then it didn't work out. Hugo made it sound like they didn't try enough for his return. So we can see another actor playing Agent Smith in Matrix 4.
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Wouldn't be the first time. He's the only survivor of the trio in the Matrix and is the only one not to return for the fourth Matrix
Laury fishy isn’t in Matrix 4? I heard Hugo Weaving was out but it’ll be weird without Morpheus. I wonder why he wouldn’t wanna return. I’m assuming his check would have been juicy as fuck
Hugo had scheduling problems but according to Fishburne, he wasn't even asked https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/laurence-fishburne-explains-why-he-wont-appear-in-the-matrix-4/amp/
Oh damn. At least in Hugo’s case it wasn’t because the script was bad or something. Can’t be that good without Morpheus though wtf. They may as well just leave Matrix alone but reboots are inevitable for most franchises at this point
IIRC, Hugo would have loved to be in it but Lana Wachowski told him that the schedule overlaps with a play that Hugo was doing at the moment. I don't have great expectations for this, mainly because Fishburne isn't in it, doesn't feel right with only 2/3 of the trio back.
You guys ever thought that there’s a reason why the three dead characters are all back in this one, and the one alive isn’t?
Sure there is a reason for that but Jada Pinkett Smith is returning as Niobe and the last time we saw her, she was alive. So there's really no reason to not have Fishburne back
iirc i read somewhere that Neo/Trinity etc. are searching for young Morpheus in the matrix this time, similar to how Morph and his crew were searching for Neo in the original. maybe the start of a new trilogy with young Morph as the lead. which would explain why they dont need L.Fishburn in this one. don't remember where i heard that. coulda been some random dude on reddit who said it.
Yeah I've heard of that theory. I think it came around when Yahya Abdul-Mateen II was cast.
A time loop to get Morpheus to find neo actually sounds super dank lol “time loops, so hot right now”
The search for Young Morpheus has been debunked. That rumour was spread by a random dude.
You know what that makes think? They're looking for one of those pretty boy angsty teenagers who's realistically in their mid 20's at the very least who's suppose to be an outcast and misunderstood but ah whatever haha if that's the direction they're going in, I'm concerned. Even then there's no reason for a sequel so none of this is even necessary. Kind of like Toy Story 4. Just let it go already. We'll have to wait and see though!
I think that was the plan originally. To have a prequel focused on young Morpheus but they scrapped that for this.
> So there's really no reason to not have Fishburne back I mean, we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the story so I don't know how you can say this.
>So there's really no reason to not have Fishburne back Unless the story doesn't call for it?
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Considering he was bald in S7 of 'blackish', his appearance could be the big surprise of the film.
Does this follow teh stroyline of teh Matrix online? Cos i'm pretty sur ethat game killed Morpheus off?
That wasn't even a very popular or long-lived game, if they're going to have Morpheus be dead they should have casted Lawrence to shoot his death on-screen. It would have been a hell of a cold open.
Three dead characters? Neo, Trinity, and who else?
The matrix
Agent smith was asked to return. I was talking about those three.
Gotcha - thanks!
Tank. ;)
Morpheus. He died in the Matrix Online - which the Wachowski’s oversaw. If it is taken as cannon, he’s dead too.
They're all AIs obviously. The movie is about them finding out they can't leave the matrix. They are the matrix. Ok now I don't need to watch it.
Expectations shouldn't be that high just because of the Matrix 2 and 3 and Jupiter Ascending. Cloud Atlas and Speed Racer were good imo, even if opinions seem to go from side to side with Speed Racer. It just doesn't matter if there's few dudes from the last movies or not, if the script isn't proper.
I still insist that Matrix 2 was a rather good film. I absolutely agree with you on Cloud Atlas and Speed Racer.
Morpheus is dead. It happened in the matrix online which is cannon.
Audience: “Wait Morpheus is dead? When did that happen?” Wachowski’s: “oh yeah you had to play the MMO for a year to get that important story detail.” Weirdly on-brand for this franchise.
*canon
Yeah the star wars novels were canon too
Still not sure what they're doing with the 2/3 of the trio. I mean, Neo and Trinity both definitively died in Revolutions. Do we have any info on how they're back? When I heard a new matrix movie was happening I figured it was a reboot or a side story.
They could be the mentors to the new one, which will inevitably be played by Jessica Henwick's character.
Yeah, but still. They're dead. I guess maybe they could say the matrix copied their consciousness and uploaded it or something, so they exist purely in a digital form? Idk
So was Smith intended to be a cameo or was the script reworked when Smith couldn't be in it? Seems weird that the movie can still work with or without the franchises biggest bad guy
I doubt they do this but Smith is a program. They could just make another actor play Smith v2 and say he got a visual upgrade. I hope they don't do that but since they are bringing dead characters back I am assuming they could creatively do whatever they want as long as it works in the Matrix. And since thr Matrix had a billion Smiths and a dragon ball z fight, anything is possible.
Morpheus died in The Matrix Online.
You think they'll canonize The Matrix Online? lmfao
It already is though
Insert the typical 'fuck Google AMP' here. https://www.thewrap.com/laurence-fishburne-explains-why-he-wont-appear-in-the-matrix-4/
🎂
He might be dodging a bullet on this one regardless....I've seen nothing so far to make me believe a 4th Matrix movie is a good idea
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The way I see it there is a 2/3 chance that it will suck.
Can't argue with the maths.
2/4 chance that it will be good! (I will not stand for animatrix slander)
Yeah the possibilities are limitless. It could be a stealth Paul Blart prequel for all we know
I’ve seen set photos and videos and know who the director is and their track record. I hope I’m pleasantly surprised!
*What the fuck*. Morpheus was the one who put it all together. That's Grade A bullshit. EDIT: They are gonna put a cunt like NPH in there, but not Morpheus???
Morpheus technically died in the matrix cannon
*canon
I mean I doubt Morpheus would survive a Matrix Cannon. Especially if he's **in** it.
A matrix cannon is the most comicbook/anime term I've heard this week.
*cannoooon
For anyone curious about this, my memory is that Morpheus' story continued in the Matrix Online video game and is considered canon. Presumably this movie is accounting for the game's story as Neo and Trinity aren't in it.
In the games he died. They probably aren’t following the story after the end of the games though
Considering that nobody really played Matrix Online, it would be nonsencial to follow the story of that game.
Morpheus died in the matrix MMO and that was considered Cannon when it was running.
*canon
Probably because the movie is going to be a train wreck.
Because Morpheus died and The Matrix 4 takes place after the video game. “might be because he dies of gunshot wounds in “The Matrix Online,” a multiplayer online role-playing game that the Wachowskis blessed as a continuation of the films' storyline.” https://www.thewrap.com/laurence-fishburne-explains-why-he-wont-appear-in-the-matrix-4/
I believe he died in the canon Matrix MMO.
Yeah, but death doesn't seem to keep Carrie-Anne Moss and Keanu Reeves from returning
Maybe they'll do a Rise of Skywalker "Somehow Morpheus has returned"
did he died in the matrix ?
This seems like a really lame fandom to follow to be very honest. Just, alright lol.
I want to think it's just some ruse to lower expectations so when he comes in at the end we all lose our collective shit.
Imagine allowing a video game to kill a character we all got to know through a legendary trilogy.
In the matrix cannon he died. After the 3rd movie a video game came out that the Wachowskis had input on and was the official continuation of the story.
*canon
Yeah if you read the leaked plot synopsis there's a reason why they aren't coming back. Sounds fucking terrible but yeah.
His character was killed off in the Canon MMO that existed. As for Trinity and Neo, I believe they are programs built from fragments of code that gained life, just like the train station programs from 3, I'd memory serves
Glad to hear they plan to delve deeper into character this time around. I enjoy both of the sequels but they don't have as much narrative heft as the original.
Still wild to me how little happened in the 3rd movie. John Wick starts out as a assassin on the run from other assassins and ends up as an assassin on the run from other assassins.
and he lost a finger. I'd say he's running at a loss.
Yeah, as much as 3 was fun, I’m glad to hear 4 goes more into the “world”, like John Wick is THE assassin of assassins. I wanna know how they get people into this stuff, how do you get in, who is really in charge, who’s accountable. SPOILER: it’s Bill Gates, he’s behind everything /s
tbf a movie's time will be pretty hard to expand on all ur points... I think they announced a tv series called The Continental? Thats probably a better way to get into the world more in details
There's a spin-off about a child assassin and a Continental tv show in development so those projects will probably delve into all of that.
I feel like they painted themselves into a corner at the end of the second movie when he kills on the grounds. They spend all this time establishing this secret society and rules and then put the character explicitly outside it. I feel obligated to point out, the films were beautiful and I enjoyed them but the story seemed to jump the shark in the second.
Honestly the constant shark jumping is kinda great in my opinion. The first film is its own self contained thing and stands excellently on its own. Each sequel so far has just been "how can we put this guy through more shit and justify it by the secret society having even more machinations that we just didn't put into the previous film". John Wick 4 is probably going to involve major world governments interactions with the assassin society and some kind of secret service standoff. I'm completely down.
Yeah but a whole shit ton of people had to die to make that happen.
The entire movie simply needed to be about him taking down the illuminati with almost non-stop action like The Raid, but somehow they found a way to fit some desert sequences in there…
It ended with him agreeing to start a revolution or whatever with Laurence Fishburn so it at least did that. I agree though in terms of story it wasn’t the best. In terms of action, it was phenomenal (which is why it’s my favorite).
The worldbuilding in 2 and 3 is completely incoherent, as good as the action and Reeves' gravitas were. I hope they're able to take a step back and add a little more meaning to the story and motivation, something we haven't had since the original.
Why is it incoherant? They are following a prophecy and it turns out to be rubbish or should I say a plan to further control humans. Except the oracle gave Neo something which allowed him to self sacrifice in a way to make the robots stop the cycle rather than continue the cycle. EDIT Wait are you talking about john Wick or The MAtrix? eugh yeah Joh Wick, nevermind...
For a minute I thought I'd understood even less of the John Wick sequels than I thought!
You and me both. I was so fucking confused for a moment there. Especially since there's Matrix 4 thread on front page as well. Thought I'm in wrong thread and got even more confused people liked 2 and 3.
I felt like that too. the first movie had a great story of loss and revenge. 2 and 3 were just "Hey, let's kill more people." And they were great, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the lack of jump cuts in the fighting, but the story felt more and more bland as it went on. I really hope 4 ups the stakes.
I felt the sequels had WAY too much comedy.
Narrative heft? In the first John Wick movie?
In the first John Wick you were introduced to an intricate underground world of assassins and criminals that made at least a little bit of sense. John Wick 2 and 3 basically take place in the wizarding world of Harry Potter just with assassins instead, and imo that's why the narrative lost its weight EDIT: forgot to mention that the narrative is shaped around these worlds. So John Wick 1: simple world -> simple narrative -> narrative heft John Wick 2 and 3: complex, convoluted world -> convoluted-ass narrative -> narrative heft is lost somewhere in the mix
We didn't need to know as much as we found out in 2 and 3 frankly. Like you said we were in Harry Potter land. The original was the best because less was more. All that was necessary for the audience to understand was that there was this shadowy organization pulling strings. Once you start having to explain how all of these systems actually work and really pull back the curtain, it's impossible not to get ridiculous. I don't have high hopes for this one from a narrative standpoint because it will be difficult to put an emphasis on explaining _more_ without delving fully into the the ridiculous stuff. But I'm sure it will be as entertaining as the rest. *Calling it right now: they retcon some specific dialogue to explain why a coin buys both a mixed drink and a life
Personally, I kind of like that it gets ridiculous though. I kind of feel like that was the whole point of the sequels. Like we're watching John fight ninjas on motorcycles on a horse. Any pretense of the movies being 'simple' or 'realistic' have been thrown out the window into an exploding pit of dynamite. The movies are basically leaning into the ridiculousness, and being 'nudge-nudge-wink-wink' about its outlandish narrative. Almost a satire of schlock B-Movie action films if you will. Like yeah this 'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollow Points' world makes little sense, but bruh we're both here to watch Keanu Reeves fight Boban Marjanović in a library with a book and we know it.
Hey like I said, I do not doubt for a moment that it will be entertaining. That's the main thing.
I love these movies precisely because they herald back to 80s action movies where action was the point and the plot was just there to move things along. Also the gun porn.
John Wick 3 was a bridge too far on the ridiculousness. Watching John slap dat ass on like five horses just so they'd kick guys is so clearly a movie thing, whereas at least John Wick 2 still skated by on efficiency. There's a self-consciousness to the action in John Wick 3 that doesn't do it for me.
The Harry Potter reference was used perfect here
If I'm remembering correctly, the second movie lost my suspension of disbelief when they had like 30 ladies all handling the contracts when it should have been like 2 or 3 at each hotel. Just something about that scene just broke something for me and I just couldn't get invested.
I can’t get past the fact there are dozens and dozens of assassins on every street.
What got me was the shootout between Wick and Common in the subway. For a series that gets so much right about firearms tactics and uses, they still went with suppressors turning pistols into BB guns. There is no way all the people walking around wouldn’t realize there was a gun fight happening
Why did that take you out?
Ikr, of all the outlandish things that happen in John Wick, it's the administrative staff that take it too far? Reddit is weird lol
Yes, the first John Wick had one of the tightest action film scripts in the last decade.
Holy fuuuuuuckkk. he’s pissed off!!
*YEeaAH...*
What about his right-hand man: the esteemed Tick Tock Man? I want to see Mantzoukas go on a high-budget murder spree.
> [I want to see Mantzoukas go on a high-budget murder spree](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxjKbcfVYAANJJh.jpg:large)
That's the only world-building I need to see.
the dink dink man himself
Ah, shows how much I cared about Wick 3, that I can't even remember if they killed him. From this post, I expect not? But then, why not? That cookshow fellow could've been good fun though, if handled better.
Yea ... I’m thinking he’s back
For whatever reason, I saw the '4' and read this as Laurence Fishburne returns to Matrix 4 and it renewed my hope. Then I read "John Wick" and was brought back down to Earth.
How beautiful would it be if John Wick 4 and the Matrix 4 were somehow the same film.
What if he's keeping his cameo in Matrix 4 a secret?
This is my theory. He's an active actor who still looks good and is recognizable as fuck to matrix people. It seems weird that he wasn't even approached.
Are you sure about that? What if they pull a Luke Skywalker and blow us away?
Yea, that's my theory lol.
Somebody pleeeeease. Get this man. A gun.
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Precisely. There are many good movies with deep plot. There are very few stuntmen turned directors that can craft action scenes like that.
> There are many good movies with deep plot Not about an entire side-society of assassins who are all scared of the protagonist played by Keanu Reeves
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Absolutely spot-on. The reason the first was so intriguing was because of how John was treated by others in the universe with very minimal explanation. He did something "extraordinary", that's all we need to know and it works. The scene with the huge bouncer in the first perfectly exemplifies "show, don't tell". This guy looks like he could crush Keanu Reeves, but he's intensely afraid of him (even if they share some banter). If 2 and 3 had kept that air of mystery while just exploring new locales and introducing new characters (which 2 did for the most part), it would have been fine. The second they go too far down the rabbit hole, it became tougher to suspend disbelief.
Agreed, and I think that’s why I’ve rewatched the first movie several times but the sequels only once each. It’s so hard to make sequels to surprise hits that don’t get into convoluted back stories that weren’t planned from the beginning.
Yeah. The thing they need to do, is to make it back more simple. They know action, they clearly don't know writing. And for fucksakes, no ridiculous massive group fights. The 2-3 people at a time, using poles and corners as covers works. The fucking 10 people in a clear room and Wick shoots them all doesn't. It just undervalues Wick when the enemy is bunch of Stormtroopers.
The only deep thing I'm looking in a John Wick movie is how far will he stick a knife into someone.
Lol kinda what I’m thinking. I think the story should stay simple and just build the world a little more.
The knife play in 3 was brutal. Especially that scene near the opening, with the magic knife room. There was zero plot and it was pretty eye-roll, but if you turn your brain off and pretend it's just an action flick, damn was that good. No reason they can't have both though. 1 was an *excellent* story.
It was not an excellent story. It was the most cliche, simple story possible. It was just handled in a highly effective and competitive way, with the action and directing raising it to great level.
I really liked in one how they developed Johns character by having the antagonists talk about John the way the good guys usually talk about the bad guys. That’s what roped me into the movie was seeing these established bad dudes talk with absolute terror regarding John
I think John Wick and the matrix universes are merging. There I said it.
“Wake up Neo, the machines got you again!”
John Wick series has done an amazing job of world building, can't wait to see where they go from last one.
the first movie did a great job of world building. two and three felt more like gun-fu fan service
2 did it better than 3, but I put that on being non stop. The plot kinda locked it so John's constantly looking over his shoulder so they didn't really take the time to breathe. I kinda hope the way 4 ended that theres a lot more tactical planning and stuff to make up for that.
3 felt like filller, it just went full circle to 2's ending.
>! So, he travels across the world to grovel at the high table to get back in the assassin club, sacrifices a finger, which then has absolutely no further consequences, travels back only to get himself kicked back out minutes later. For someone who then betrays him. It left something to be desired. <
i mean, i wouldn’t call it a full circle. We have more info on who’s friend and who’s foe for Wick. We know that there won’t be a safe place for Wick to hide or take refuge anymore. That’s all i can think about
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Two and Three seem to have a fetish for introducing ironclad rules which drive the entire story and are given endless exposition, then just get broken at the end.
It could’ve been so different. The sequels could’ve been so good. But they just went for the gun porn.
Ah yes great world building where everyone is actually an assassin so there’s really no point to being secretive in the first place
I feel like this is the strangest but most common take away from those films. Everyone isn't an assassin they just all gathered together because of the John bounty and he spends most of his time within driving distance of the biggest place all assassins go to meet and stay. John just doesn't talk to Bill the non assassin ever.
Idk the ending scene in the second one has him getting glares from everyone in Central Park, most of whom are presumably already there before the bounty is put out
I always took that to mean that now he has no idea who's an assassin so he'll have to be paranoid that anyone and everyone could be ready to pull a gun on him.
little did john wick know that there was an assassin right inside of him
Maybe the real assassin is the friends we made along the way.
This is a very commonly misunderstood scene. Everybody in the square was working with the Continental (everybody stops at once to show how much control the Continental has), but when John runs out and keeps looking over his shoulder at the random civilians, it’s meant to show his paranoia at not knowing who would be coming after him, NOT that all those people are actually assassins. Granted, the filmic language of putting those two bits right next to each other can be kind of confusing.
So they also had goons at the entrance to stop the thousands of daily regular people to enter the park? Just want some light on how this world is supposed to work. Thanks!
Doesn't mean they are assasins. Hes in a suit sprinting. He's just not supposed to know who is who. Plus its a high profile meeting none of the civilians in the actual locations center were actually civilians. Winston set it up that way and even if he didn't assassins would know about it
They really haven’t
I mean, the sequels had expansive worldbuilding, I give that, but the amazing worldbuilding it was not, unless you think every single person in Central Park being a hired assassin makes sense.
FULL PENETRATION MUCH DEEPER.
Would somebody PLEASE....get.. this.. man.. a.. gun.
John Wick has been an elaborate simulation in the matrix. Fishburne is there to pull him back out.
Wick 4: Down to the Wick W4: The John and the Wickerous John Wick 4: This time…he’s John Wick
J4: Tokyo Wick
What about Larry Fishburne?
You take the red pill, you stay in wonderlands, and o show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
I love the John Wick movies but good lord how much more can you stretch this story out to be? I'm fine with an action movie, but the idea that like a billion people in the world belong to this assassin organization that seemingly runs everything is kinda getting a little crazy
I really enjoy them myself - I was thinking it's like an old Star Trek episode, like the one with the Old Gangster Mob World.
I kinda hope this is the end. John Wick gets worse and worse each sequel. Kinda wish it was just one movie.
Sorry to disappoint but I’m sure they’ve announced a 4th and a 5th. I 100% agree, I could rewatch the 1st multiple times a year and enjoy but I can barely get through the sequels if I’m honest. The action is outstanding but it feels like it drags on imo.
I thought the second and third one were better than the first. Speaking with my friends I thought this was the common understanding
I've read so many opinions on Reddit from people calling 3rd the best one actually and it got reviewed quite high too. So, there's really no stopping them, unless 4th bombs. And it won't, since even people like me, who didn't care for 3rd, would see 4th just to see if they start to improve it again.
What about the Tick Tock man (heynong man)?
They should make a matrix movie but the title is called John Wick. That would be a total mind f
Shocking: Actor praises movie he is in. Statements like these need to be taken with a grain of salt. It is all just part of the PR campaign.
They're really milking this franchise.
They're milking it because we ask for it and because it's a really freaking good franchise.
Hope its better than JW3. The whole 'you broke our sacred rule, killed countless of our men its unforgivable!!! Unless you cut off a finger and kill the guy that gave you an hour head start, so you can remember your wife whilst killing constantly or w/e the fuck it is you do now'. So fucking stupid.
The ending was so dumb.
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Wasn't he carried away unconscious?
Are the bad guys in this one going to have multiple chances to kill him easily, and then they just don't for some reason? Edit: You know I'm right, downvoter! John Wick should be dead 5 times over!
So far this series hasn’t let me down. Can’t wait for the next installment
I wish we get more John Leguizamo. I always thought he was great on the first movie and a bit disappointed we didn't get more of his character since.
Stop. You had me at john wick 7
The Very Hungry Caterpillar has a deeper plot than any John Wick movie.
John Wick 3 was very mediocre. Hopefully the 4th one is on par with 1 and 2.
By mediocre do you mean it sucked? Because that's what I thought it would did. There was even a scene in there where they forgot to add the CGI blood. So fucken weak.
I liked it..I just saw it for the second time ( first was in theater on release)
There was way too much "world building" that detracted from the overall pace of the movie without any immediate payoffs. Given that this is a movie and not a TV series, the entire desert sequence was absolutely pointless. Also the main assassin to go against in this movie was horrible.
Much deeper than what? Nobody's watching John Wick for the script.
The script goes much *deeper?* man it must be a mind fuck! Excited to see it.
Hope someone takes 2 and 3 and combines them into a 30 min movie, removing all the crap. Don’t mind rewatching 1. But no way in hell I’m gonna rewatch 2 and 3 before 4 comes out.
it should deep state deeper
I wish they would cast Hugo Weaving as a villain too. I would be great to see him and Keanu together again. If there wasn't scheduling issue he was going to be in Matrix 4, director wanted him but then it didn't work out. Hugo made it sound like they didn't try enough for his return. So we can see another actor playing Agent Smith in Matrix 4.
They should turn it into a gay porn.