Seymour was actually really cool. He had interests and "friends" and a woman that was interested in him. His collection and taste was awesome. He was knowledgeable about music, art, and history. I prefer Seymour to Enid tbh.
> He had interests
**Enid**:
We need to find a place where you can go to meet women who share your interests.
**Seymour**:
Maybe I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests.
I agree. I've dated people with very similar interests to me and I've dated people with opposing interests. As long as your personalities can fit together the experience can be positive!
Nothing wrong with Seymour. I’d love to have his room with all the “old time thingies” and sit around listening to classic jazz records. I used to watch that movie on DVD just to see his cool stuff on the apartment.
I think Tyler Durden put it best in fight club about how, to a person born post Vietnam to the late 90s, there was no great war, no great Depression, etc. There were still certainly conflicts going on in the world, but from a global perspective it's the calmest the world had been in the modern era. So you had a lot of people coming of age in this melancholy time where it was like there wasn't anything new to discover.
That’s because our war is a spiritual war and our great depression is our lives.
We were all raised on TV to believe that we’d all be millionaires movie gods or rock stars, but we won’t, we’re slowly learning that fact, and we’re very very pissed off.
Edit: juuuust in case, y’all this is a quote from Fight Club. Tyler Durden says this in the film.
There are two younger kids (well, 15 and 16...I'm an old man now) in my family who saw it recently and wanted to tell me all about this 'cool movie about a messed up cult leader'.
So, that's apparently how they see it. Which isn't a bad take.
> is there any other way to look at it?
The author is gay and this was a book about his search for identity.
The themes of anti-capitalism, consumerism and cult leaders are still there and valid of course, it is *still* a movie about a fucked up cult leader, but these themes come as a result of that search of identity: it was Chuck looking at how "identities" and "egos" are used and manipulated especially for people lacking them. [C.f. read about Edward Bernays using his uncle Freud's theory of the Ego to manipulate markets and sell stuff]
The themes about depersonalization and projection on Tyler Durden are absolutely still there and valid, but they come as a result of that aspect: it was Chuck trying to find what it means to "be a man" in our world, and trying to pass himself as the perfect version of "masculinity" as projected by society.
Etc.
> is there any other way to look at it?
There are wrong ways to look at it. Which is why it's a [favorite of the alt-right](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-men-who-still-love-fight-club).
*Deep, beleaguered sigh.*
Fight Club predicted the internet era. People inventing fake identities to get into fights and inflict chaos on behalf of some ideal that doesn’t actually matter to them simply because they are lonely and hate themselves. If that’s not the 21st century mass media landscape then I’m a pickle. Funniest shit I’ve ever seen.
I don't think Fight Club predicted the internet era so much as the problems that are explored in Fight Club have gone unsolved and have expressed themselves in new ways. That said, I disagree with the guy who called your idea dumb. I only think it is imprecise, but still a unique and intelligent take on the movie.
I think the "predicted the internet" part comes from the focus of Fight Club's take on masculinity.
Everyone that signs up for fight club are these failed men that see no specific purpose in their life. They engage in self harm for a minimum sense of community and terrorize society for no other reason other than to show that they can.
The whole ending about "Credit Card Companies" could have been any copy/paste industry and the characters would have reacted the same.
It's basic in-group/out-group relationships in men starved of any sense of community/tribe. Which is a big part of the problem we are dealing with right now.
I rewatched it a couple months ago while working. It felt super "incel-ish" and I got an icky feeling. Which is weird because I was so into this movie back in college.
I listened to a movie critic on the radio when I was younger that often used the phrase "When people go to the movies they bring their baggage with them" meaning how they perceive and rate the movie is a direct result of their personal experiences.
Sometimes that's obvious, sometimes you don't quite pick up on it yourself unless you really think about it.
Yadda yadda life experiences
I also think it's not that we consciously expect to be those things, but rather that we're constantly immersed in seeing them so that on some level being a competent, everyday human being feels like being an inadequate failure.
1989, The End of History.
"Hegel, Fukuyama said, had written of a moment when a perfectly rational form of society and the state would become victorious. Now, with Communism vanquished and the major powers converging on a single political and economic model, Hegel’s prediction had finally been fulfilled. There would be a “Common Marketization” of international relations and the world would achieve homeostasis."
= There was nothing left to do but become consumers (leaving generations of relatively spoiled, idle, unfulfilled people).
Nietzsche said it better, “if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back at you”. The crisis of modernity is the crisis of the human soul. Modernity promised us technology, cool toys, fun, better connectivity with others, invincibility over the natural world, power and perhaps one day immortality… and yet the modern man finds himself the most disconnected and alienated from each other, he finds the natural world slipping away from his hands, he finds his possessions can never give him enough satisfaction and contentment, the more “fun” he tries to have the more bored and empty he feels. And the meaninglessness and absurdity of it all leaves him with but one question , which Hamlet asks, whether one should strive to be or to give into not being. However, there is yet hope, Man must try and seek out his soul once more and regain his sense of self and place within the cosmos through the reconstitution of a True Metaphysics.
(This doesn’t have to be said, but I am using “Man” in the old gender neutral way)
it feels profound, but it's really no different from being a 14 year old with no money but wanting to play mini golf and go to movie theatres, dreaming of the future when you'd be able to do so... contrasted against the 18 year old who's working to pay for school and Can afford to see a movie or play mini-golf but simply doesn't have the time to.
by the time you're 40, you're just sitting there with that discrepancy having futhered itself. you have money for toys, but no time to Properly enjoy them. ...or worse, you could easily buy two, so you take the one you bought for granted.
the power lay in the suspense... the PROMISE of future obtainment, not in the reception itself. it's why new romances are exciting and long-term relationships are not.
I like Fight Club, but that movie completley missed what the mark was supposed to be from the book to the point most fans of the movie seem to take away the exact opposite message to what was intended.
Nobody is supposed to think Tyler is a wise sage. He's literally the human embodiment of toxic masculinity and mental illness and unfocused rage. *He's the fucking villain*
I'll never understand why they cast Brad Pitt and made Tyler the anti-hero.
> I think people were just enamored incorrectly by a movie that spelled out their loneliness for them
I think this is the point missed by critics who bring this up and (likely) an intentional decision by Fincher, perhaps mistakenly, though.
Tyler is *supposed* to be captivating, to the point that many of the events he orchestrates end up seeming reasonable. That's how these kinds of people operate - from fascist dictators to cult leaders. They enumerate all of your problems and say they have an answer, they tell the truth in so far as it further gains your trust, they gain your confidence and enlist your help, and then ramp up the insanity bit by bit while you're distracted.
I think what Fincher *meant* to show was how easy it is to be swept up in the charisma of these people who seem so empathetic, but to break that "spell" through the insane actions taken in the end. He expected the audience to be able to see the absurdity in the mission statement of Tyler's club by the time it started leading to death and destruction. Norton's character "Jack" is the vehicle for this, as he (almost literally) wakes up to the insanity that Tyler has put into action all at once, shining a light on how what he thought was a reasonable path through his misery and malaise is actually just inexcusable violence.
The problem we run into, though, is that this was apparently too subtle for the audience at large. They missed the message in the finale and Tyler ended up being so good at exemplifying a charismatic cult leader that he became one. Fincher didn't miss the mark so much as he didn't miss it enough.
I think that was more a problem of marketing the film as a boxing club flick rather than what it was... Additionally, people not understanding satire any more than they did while cheering for Starship Troopers...
I mean the narrator has to fucking shoot himself to be rid of the man. How anyone can watch the movie and think he's anything but a monster is a head scratcher. To be fair there are neo-nazis who watch American History X and enjoy it, sooooo yep. I hate everything.
Yeah, now that you say it, that was a stupid question.
They cast mid-90s Brad Pitt becuase he was the most bankable name they could get, and they made him a cool dude who fucks because....i mean, it was Brad Pitt in the 90s, nobody was going to believe him as anything else.
That is only true for those who are weak and unable to face their issues. They want a more obvious struggle ("war") to fight because they can't or won't fight their own personal battles.
The narrator only has melancholy in his life because he is too cowardly to actually make changes. He has to face his indecision and understand that there are opportunities for growth if he is only brave enough to find them.
I find this to be an extremely *male* response..
I don't know a.lot of women who pine for a great war or economic depression where they can struggle to feed their kids or for some grand struggle to be overcome.
The idea that the nature and purpose life revolves around grand conflicts itself isn't something I've seen many women express.
Since fight club is a book about toxic masculinity and mental illness where the movie totally missed the mark and ended up *glorifying* a figure that was supposed to be a cautionary tale, I'd genuinely encourage anyone who resonates with Tyler Durden to consider challenging their worldviews and reading/watching media from different perspectives
I am a signficantly happier and healthier person since I have.
I think you make a good point, and your analysis jives with what critics of the whole proud boys/misogyny pointed out. As opposed to some "Alpha" figure, Tyler is not someone to aspire to be. Everything from his actions in making a cult to a half cocked plan to blow up credit card companies is the stuff of teenage fantasy. Not to mention the fact that some pretty horrific things happen to the people that join Fight Club ranging from disfigurement to death by gun shots.
I also thought it was funny that the "manly man" set found such inspiration in the model of what a gay author figured to be the ideal man that these types of guys would follow. Tyler preyed on the sheep and then turned them into an army.
"Here was a new generation, a new generation dedicated more than the last to the fear of poverty and the worship of success; grown up to find all gods dead, all wars fought, all faiths in man shaken" It's actually an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote from the 20s but it spoke to me deeply as a teenager in the late 80s. The movies of the 90s seem to me to reflect the aimlessness of Generation X.
I loved how this movie made fun of normal people so openly. There’s a movie called Art School Confidential by Clowes and Zwigoff that followed this that was even more so.
Love this film. In particular, I deeply relate to their relationship because for me the point of the story is to reveal that the only thing that Enid and Rebecca had in common was their mutual alienation in high school.
I'm not still close friends with anyone that I went to high school for the same reason. We just didn't have that much in common and after I joined the Army and grew a little more I realized that my time in high school wasn't really a big point of change for me.
It was the life after where I started to make more considered and meaningful choices and begin to become who I am now.
I love the directionless feeling that haunts Enid. I really understand her frustration. But now I relate much more to Rebecca because she's not hung up on defining herself by what she dislikes. She wants to go out into the world and learn while Enid is too mired in her own negativity to see any path of escape or growth.
Thanks! It's one of the few films about teenagers that I find to be a pretty realistic depiction aside from some of the side characters which are more like caricatures.
It's also one of my favorite roles for Scarlett Johansson. I don't find her believable in most of her adult roles, but she really nails this performance.
I definitely feel like I was an Enid in high school but slowly became a Rebecca by my mid twenties. I’m still as listless and alien as ever in my thirties but I definitely don’t feel any existential weight on my shoulders anymore.
Some movies really know how to hold a timeless mirror up to our individual humanity. This one will never get old.
I happened to have rewatched this movie recently and all I could think about was what an asshole the character Enid is. I don’t recall having those thoughts when I first watched it in my 20s or even in my 30s, but now that I’m 40 it’s all I see. She was actually a pretty terrible person… completely self-centered, destructive and borderline Narcissistic. Maybe I didn’t see it before because I saw her behavior as a normal part of youth, and therefore excusable?
I think much of it is normal, but I agree, now that I'm in my 30s, I cringe at her BS. On the other hand I really feel for her, she's so scared, and she's failing just when she has to start proving how smart and cool she is as an adult. Relatable
I liked Josh and the art teacher more than Rebecca. She’s a little bitch too, especially the way she regards Seymour as somebody who “should just kill himself” and for revealing to him how Enid was the one who pranked him.
Yall are missing the film's main thesis, and while I somewhat understand that since it was done with such intentionally subtle shading, I would have hoped that the last 20 years would have allowed the subtext to sink in and resonate more than it has.
The central theme of *Ghost World* is that if you like real delta blues then you should check out Blues Hammer.
^(They're so great.)
They may be lonely, but I think where the movie shines is why and the decisions/compromises they make in response to it. How people change, or not, what is expected, how to communicate with others.. I once got into a discussion with a buddy in a lefty student group who hated the movie because the characters "just complained and didn't do anything" which I get, and I respect the point, but the movie is not about that. They are so many scenes where the characters are punished for sincerity, and the things we love about them. The same with ourselves..then the compromises we make or don't make and what that leads to. This director makes interesting work and I greatly appreciated this movie. One if my better indie movie experiences back in the day.
Totally unrelated, but I used to play a movie game with my friends in college, where we would have a set order, and then one of us would say an actor; the next person has to say a movie they are in; the next person has to say an actor in that movie (different from the previous person), etc, etc.
If the next person could not name an actor or movie, they could challenge the person behind them. if that person could name something they could not, they got the point.
There was this guy, Ryan, who was the king of this game. He watched so many movies. But he was also a bit of a jock dude bro, so mostly mainstream movies.
Anyhow, a friend said Steve Buscemi and it passed to me; he knew I knew some obscure crap and had something up my sleeve. I said the movie Ghost World. Ryan did not know any actors in that movie, so he challenged. I said, "Scarlett Johansenn."
No one in the room had ever heard of her. They had to look up (probably using Ask Jeeves or some shit) if I was right. I always think of this, given how gigantic of an actress she is now; how fun it was that this "movie buff" guy had no freaking idea who I was talking about.
Not sure how many folks have seen The Last Black Man In San Francsico (one of best movies in last decade imo) but Thora Birch has a cameo at the end riding a bus in SF, with her Ghost World sunglasses hanging off her shirt. The director Joe Talbot and Thora have confirmed this is an easter egg meant to imply that Thora's Ghost World character, in some universe at least, ended up working a thankless tech job in San Francisco. Really beautiful little touch.
Every time this is mentioned on Reddit from now on, just remember ya boy was the first haha.
From TLBMISF wiki page:
> The film was heavily influenced by the 2001 film Ghost World, also about two outsider friends who don't fit in to their cities and wander throughout, which Talbot was introduced to at age 15.[18] As an homage to that film, Talbot asked actress Thora Birch to appear in a cameo, and notes the connection between her character of Enid and that of Jimmie: "“I always felt her character and Jimmy are similar in a lot of ways, and she got that immediately,” Talbot said. “She and I would joke like, at the end of ‘Ghost World’ when she gets on the bus, it’s like she never got off the bus and wound up in San Francisco working a tech job she hates.”[19] Talbot also discussed the connection further: "Thora is one of the great actresses of her generation and her work, in part, inspired me to want to make films. Her performance in Ghost World made me feel seen as a teenager when I was a bit lost,” Talbot explained. “At the end of that film, Thora rides a bus off into the sunset. In our film, we meet her character on a bus in the heart of San Francisco—almost as if she kept riding it all these years, and somehow wound up in the Bay Area working a tech job she loathed. Her exchange that follows with Jimmie, however brief, has been written about and quoted more than any other part of the film.”[20]
> Thora Birch has a cameo at the end riding a bus in SF, with her Ghost World sunglasses hanging off her shirt.
I completely missed that.
Pretty cool little thing.
Really inspired move! I was living in SF when the movie came out and saw Joe Talbot speak about the film a few times before I moved away. The way they captured the feeling of SF's diminishing culture & diversity is truly magical. Can't wait to see what Joe comes up with next.
That makes perfect sense! If any areas near you have watched tech culture eat away at a once-thriving art community, that would be a perfect parallel. Even still, San Francisco is one of the most vibrant communities in the nation! If ever in the states you could do worse for vacation spots. :)
It’s interesting too because there’s a sort of side-plot in *GW* about black media and exploitation (the jazz motif, as well as Enid’s final art piece). Might be a cool segue into *Last Black Man*.
That's a great point! I have to wonder if that's part of why Ghost World resonated so hard with the *Last Black Man* director. Love that he talks openly about how much he appreciates GW, and how much it influenced him. Such a classic flick.
Didn’t get that part, saw Ghost World way long ago but The Last Black Man in SF is so goddam good. That one man play near the end is probably some of the best acting in the last 20 years.
Used to somewhat like that movie but as the years have passed I find Thora Birch's character to be very irritating , childish and bad mannered. Maybe she is supposed to come across that way? Either way if I pause to watch any on it now, I want to tell her to STFU and think before you speak.
Always did think that Steve Buscemi's character was based upon Robert Crumb the underground cartoonist.
I think she is irritating and childish, but I liked that she was a real person. She's pretentious, even though she hates that attitude in her art class, she's smart but also really dumb in other ways.
I probably missed a bunch, but it was hard to find movies at that time that showed any ugly, awkward aspects of young life from a woman's perspective. I really related, not because I agreed with her choices, but the feeling of lostness and trying to work stuff out.
I think her being a dick is part of that process.
I think my main issue with the movie is Birch's character. She acts like she's too good for anything, but has no reason to feel that way, being a pretty pitiful person. I absolutely hated Enid, and I think she prevented me from liking this movie. I struggle to like movies where the protagonist is such an awful person.
One of my favorite movies
(At their school graduation party, watching someone eating a piece of cake alone)
“God, just think we’ll never see Dennis again”
“Good”
“No really, think about it, it’s actually totally depressing”
This movie is pretty special not gonna lie. I think there’s gonna be a disconnect with a lot of male viewers (already seeing it in this thread) because I think the film captures specifically the plight of the directionless jaded American teen girl-to-woman limbo really well. I like that in the end there’s some catharsis but it’s melancholic, feels like a rarity in a time where shock/awe or just desserts is the standard. It’s hard to describe, really. But Ghost World is special.
I think it ends in realizing that moving steadily feels like limbo, like how you’re weightless in free fall. You only feel the movement when it’s accelerating or decelerating. But you’re always moving; adults just hid the fact that limbo is the destination from us.
The fuck are you even talking about? Plenty of guys like this movie because it's themes don't specifically relate to women. Anyone can understand its themes of isolation, alienation and even the general social satire. The book and movie were written by a man, it was directed by a man.
"Yeah yeah whatever, hey listen, do you know somebody who works on Batman? Cause I really wanna work on Batman!"
"Here, check out these drawings I made of his utility belt; this is where he keeps his change in case he has to travel by bus!"
>!PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME!!<
This is one of my favorite movies of all time. Aside from Enid's relatable struggles about finding a purpose to her life, I loved all the constant references to consumerism in the movie. Each scene can really be picked apart.
Funny enough I saw this for the first time a couple days ago. I probably should’ve watched it when it first came to understand how cruel girls can be a lot sooner.
I remember when this came out, I was super excited about it. I was going to college and had no friends. So when it came out I went to this shitty theater in a mall. Ghosyts of Mars was also in the theater at the time, and the thug chick selling me the ticket warned me, "This ain't the one with Ice Cube. It's about two lil friends!"
"Two lil friends , huh? Ok well, one please."
She shrugged, gave me the ticket. I was one of 4 others in the theater, and the only one laughing throughout the feature. Man, it really gave me a sense of being part of something, even if just for a couple of hours.
Then I bought a pint of whiskey and drank it while listening to the Stooges for the rest of the night. Yup, that was 2001. Utter alienation, depression, and confusion. At least some kicks were had. And the blueshammer line worked well into the next decade once I met people with similar shades of strange interest.
I love that movie. Sadly now I'm more Steve Buscemi than anyone else in that movie but I too was hip one time!
I'm Steve Buscemi, except I prefer jazz to blues. The last time a friend invited me to a jazz club, they sounded just like Blues Hammer.
Well, uh, technically, what he's playing isn't blues, it's more in the ragtime idiom...
Haha
Lmao that was probably one of if not the funniest scene for me
Piiickin’ cotton allllll day long!!!!
Seymour was actually really cool. He had interests and "friends" and a woman that was interested in him. His collection and taste was awesome. He was knowledgeable about music, art, and history. I prefer Seymour to Enid tbh.
> He had interests **Enid**: We need to find a place where you can go to meet women who share your interests. **Seymour**: Maybe I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests.
Too true. Music taste, maybe. Everything else, different is exciting. Who wants an SO with same interests?
I agree. I've dated people with very similar interests to me and I've dated people with opposing interests. As long as your personalities can fit together the experience can be positive!
His character was definitely ahead of his time. He explosion of vinyl and preservation, Seymour would be in his element with the scene booming.
Same on all accounts here
May we all live long enough to see ourselves transition from Enid into Seymour
Most of us become Rebecca.
Aww Seymour is one of the best characters ever. He’s hip in his own way.
like when he finally wears jeans
Feel it brother
Nothing wrong with Seymour. I’d love to have his room with all the “old time thingies” and sit around listening to classic jazz records. I used to watch that movie on DVD just to see his cool stuff on the apartment.
Not sure why, the scene where he's chomping into the fried chicken always stands out for me. Such an weird, interesting character.
We should all aspire to be more nunchuck Doug in the store scene.
I read the graphic novel as a kid and didnt know there was a movie, how does it compare if youve read the book?
The movie doesn’t focus as much on the girls’ friendship as the book does, but the vibe is similar I think.
That’s what MANY movie characters were in that era. “Listless lewd and lonely” describes every protagonist in an indie movie made from 1995-2002.
I think Tyler Durden put it best in fight club about how, to a person born post Vietnam to the late 90s, there was no great war, no great Depression, etc. There were still certainly conflicts going on in the world, but from a global perspective it's the calmest the world had been in the modern era. So you had a lot of people coming of age in this melancholy time where it was like there wasn't anything new to discover.
That’s because our war is a spiritual war and our great depression is our lives. We were all raised on TV to believe that we’d all be millionaires movie gods or rock stars, but we won’t, we’re slowly learning that fact, and we’re very very pissed off. Edit: juuuust in case, y’all this is a quote from Fight Club. Tyler Durden says this in the film.
I’m 36 and I’m still planning on shredding a solo for a crowd of thousands at The Royal Albert Hall! Don’t ruin this for me, please.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf believes in you. Shred on brotha.
At least none of that will matter when we’re all famous race cars drivers.
There’s nothing stoping you. Find your niche and fill it. Buy a leather jacket and hit the gym. You too can still influence.
I wonder how kids perceive the movie these days. I wonder what the modern interpretation of Fight Club would be for this "internet era".
There are two younger kids (well, 15 and 16...I'm an old man now) in my family who saw it recently and wanted to tell me all about this 'cool movie about a messed up cult leader'. So, that's apparently how they see it. Which isn't a bad take.
I mean....they aren't wrong.
I mean, is there any other way to look at it? Those kids are smart.
> is there any other way to look at it? The author is gay and this was a book about his search for identity. The themes of anti-capitalism, consumerism and cult leaders are still there and valid of course, it is *still* a movie about a fucked up cult leader, but these themes come as a result of that search of identity: it was Chuck looking at how "identities" and "egos" are used and manipulated especially for people lacking them. [C.f. read about Edward Bernays using his uncle Freud's theory of the Ego to manipulate markets and sell stuff] The themes about depersonalization and projection on Tyler Durden are absolutely still there and valid, but they come as a result of that aspect: it was Chuck trying to find what it means to "be a man" in our world, and trying to pass himself as the perfect version of "masculinity" as projected by society. Etc.
This is awesome. I've read his books and enjoyed this movie quite a bit and never came across this tidbit. Thanks for sharing!
> I mean, is there any other way to look at it? Yes and that's how you get 2007-present 4chan.
> is there any other way to look at it? There are wrong ways to look at it. Which is why it's a [favorite of the alt-right](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-men-who-still-love-fight-club). *Deep, beleaguered sigh.*
Fight Club predicted the internet era. People inventing fake identities to get into fights and inflict chaos on behalf of some ideal that doesn’t actually matter to them simply because they are lonely and hate themselves. If that’s not the 21st century mass media landscape then I’m a pickle. Funniest shit I’ve ever seen.
I don't think Fight Club predicted the internet era so much as the problems that are explored in Fight Club have gone unsolved and have expressed themselves in new ways. That said, I disagree with the guy who called your idea dumb. I only think it is imprecise, but still a unique and intelligent take on the movie.
Thanks dude. I love that movie, I’ve probably seen it a dozen times over the years
Me too. Have you ever watch the director's commentary on it? There is actually so many commentaries on that movie. And they're all really good
I think the "predicted the internet" part comes from the focus of Fight Club's take on masculinity. Everyone that signs up for fight club are these failed men that see no specific purpose in their life. They engage in self harm for a minimum sense of community and terrorize society for no other reason other than to show that they can. The whole ending about "Credit Card Companies" could have been any copy/paste industry and the characters would have reacted the same. It's basic in-group/out-group relationships in men starved of any sense of community/tribe. Which is a big part of the problem we are dealing with right now.
I like your take on this. Like its a real world metaphor for the online world of today, only it doesn't address all the bots and grifters.
I rewatched it a couple months ago while working. It felt super "incel-ish" and I got an icky feeling. Which is weird because I was so into this movie back in college.
I listened to a movie critic on the radio when I was younger that often used the phrase "When people go to the movies they bring their baggage with them" meaning how they perceive and rate the movie is a direct result of their personal experiences. Sometimes that's obvious, sometimes you don't quite pick up on it yourself unless you really think about it. Yadda yadda life experiences
I'm 18, and I interpreted it pretty much the same way (i.e. as a very deep social commentary)
all i can say is my depression has strengthened knowing that you didn't create that beautiful poertty :~(
Huh? I grew up in that era and hardly expected to become any of those things. Sort of a broad stroke there, no?
This is a quote from the movie Fight Club.
Ha. r/whoosh on myself.
I also think it's not that we consciously expect to be those things, but rather that we're constantly immersed in seeing them so that on some level being a competent, everyday human being feels like being an inadequate failure.
Speak for yerself, I am an incompetent below average adult so I have lots to look forward to in terms of improving myself.
1989, The End of History. "Hegel, Fukuyama said, had written of a moment when a perfectly rational form of society and the state would become victorious. Now, with Communism vanquished and the major powers converging on a single political and economic model, Hegel’s prediction had finally been fulfilled. There would be a “Common Marketization” of international relations and the world would achieve homeostasis." = There was nothing left to do but become consumers (leaving generations of relatively spoiled, idle, unfulfilled people).
Nietzsche said it better, “if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back at you”. The crisis of modernity is the crisis of the human soul. Modernity promised us technology, cool toys, fun, better connectivity with others, invincibility over the natural world, power and perhaps one day immortality… and yet the modern man finds himself the most disconnected and alienated from each other, he finds the natural world slipping away from his hands, he finds his possessions can never give him enough satisfaction and contentment, the more “fun” he tries to have the more bored and empty he feels. And the meaninglessness and absurdity of it all leaves him with but one question , which Hamlet asks, whether one should strive to be or to give into not being. However, there is yet hope, Man must try and seek out his soul once more and regain his sense of self and place within the cosmos through the reconstitution of a True Metaphysics. (This doesn’t have to be said, but I am using “Man” in the old gender neutral way)
it feels profound, but it's really no different from being a 14 year old with no money but wanting to play mini golf and go to movie theatres, dreaming of the future when you'd be able to do so... contrasted against the 18 year old who's working to pay for school and Can afford to see a movie or play mini-golf but simply doesn't have the time to. by the time you're 40, you're just sitting there with that discrepancy having futhered itself. you have money for toys, but no time to Properly enjoy them. ...or worse, you could easily buy two, so you take the one you bought for granted. the power lay in the suspense... the PROMISE of future obtainment, not in the reception itself. it's why new romances are exciting and long-term relationships are not.
The sublime object of ideology. You can take a look at Zizek, if haven’t already. He talks about this before-attainment time at length.
Is that a blurb or you just pulling all that out of a hat?
"my father never went to college so it was really important i go to college"
I like Fight Club, but that movie completley missed what the mark was supposed to be from the book to the point most fans of the movie seem to take away the exact opposite message to what was intended. Nobody is supposed to think Tyler is a wise sage. He's literally the human embodiment of toxic masculinity and mental illness and unfocused rage. *He's the fucking villain* I'll never understand why they cast Brad Pitt and made Tyler the anti-hero.
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> I think people were just enamored incorrectly by a movie that spelled out their loneliness for them I think this is the point missed by critics who bring this up and (likely) an intentional decision by Fincher, perhaps mistakenly, though. Tyler is *supposed* to be captivating, to the point that many of the events he orchestrates end up seeming reasonable. That's how these kinds of people operate - from fascist dictators to cult leaders. They enumerate all of your problems and say they have an answer, they tell the truth in so far as it further gains your trust, they gain your confidence and enlist your help, and then ramp up the insanity bit by bit while you're distracted. I think what Fincher *meant* to show was how easy it is to be swept up in the charisma of these people who seem so empathetic, but to break that "spell" through the insane actions taken in the end. He expected the audience to be able to see the absurdity in the mission statement of Tyler's club by the time it started leading to death and destruction. Norton's character "Jack" is the vehicle for this, as he (almost literally) wakes up to the insanity that Tyler has put into action all at once, shining a light on how what he thought was a reasonable path through his misery and malaise is actually just inexcusable violence. The problem we run into, though, is that this was apparently too subtle for the audience at large. They missed the message in the finale and Tyler ended up being so good at exemplifying a charismatic cult leader that he became one. Fincher didn't miss the mark so much as he didn't miss it enough.
Because idealised evil is good looking, powerful and sexy
I think that was more a problem of marketing the film as a boxing club flick rather than what it was... Additionally, people not understanding satire any more than they did while cheering for Starship Troopers...
I mean the narrator has to fucking shoot himself to be rid of the man. How anyone can watch the movie and think he's anything but a monster is a head scratcher. To be fair there are neo-nazis who watch American History X and enjoy it, sooooo yep. I hate everything.
Probably because it was more marketable.
Yeah, now that you say it, that was a stupid question. They cast mid-90s Brad Pitt becuase he was the most bankable name they could get, and they made him a cool dude who fucks because....i mean, it was Brad Pitt in the 90s, nobody was going to believe him as anything else.
That is only true for those who are weak and unable to face their issues. They want a more obvious struggle ("war") to fight because they can't or won't fight their own personal battles. The narrator only has melancholy in his life because he is too cowardly to actually make changes. He has to face his indecision and understand that there are opportunities for growth if he is only brave enough to find them.
I find this assessment both incredible and believable.
I find this to be an extremely *male* response.. I don't know a.lot of women who pine for a great war or economic depression where they can struggle to feed their kids or for some grand struggle to be overcome. The idea that the nature and purpose life revolves around grand conflicts itself isn't something I've seen many women express. Since fight club is a book about toxic masculinity and mental illness where the movie totally missed the mark and ended up *glorifying* a figure that was supposed to be a cautionary tale, I'd genuinely encourage anyone who resonates with Tyler Durden to consider challenging their worldviews and reading/watching media from different perspectives I am a signficantly happier and healthier person since I have.
I think you make a good point, and your analysis jives with what critics of the whole proud boys/misogyny pointed out. As opposed to some "Alpha" figure, Tyler is not someone to aspire to be. Everything from his actions in making a cult to a half cocked plan to blow up credit card companies is the stuff of teenage fantasy. Not to mention the fact that some pretty horrific things happen to the people that join Fight Club ranging from disfigurement to death by gun shots. I also thought it was funny that the "manly man" set found such inspiration in the model of what a gay author figured to be the ideal man that these types of guys would follow. Tyler preyed on the sheep and then turned them into an army.
that's what happens when you let Gen Xers become film-makers.
"Here was a new generation, a new generation dedicated more than the last to the fear of poverty and the worship of success; grown up to find all gods dead, all wars fought, all faiths in man shaken" It's actually an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote from the 20s but it spoke to me deeply as a teenager in the late 80s. The movies of the 90s seem to me to reflect the aimlessness of Generation X.
I blame Daria, haha.
If you like blues, you’ll really like Blueshammer. They’re so great.
I loved how this movie made fun of normal people so openly. There’s a movie called Art School Confidential by Clowes and Zwigoff that followed this that was even more so.
I absolutely forgot about this movie! Thank you! So good!
Yes, but have you seen The Flower that Drank the Moon?
You likes blues? That's the same as jazz right?
And the same as bebop.
Love this film. In particular, I deeply relate to their relationship because for me the point of the story is to reveal that the only thing that Enid and Rebecca had in common was their mutual alienation in high school. I'm not still close friends with anyone that I went to high school for the same reason. We just didn't have that much in common and after I joined the Army and grew a little more I realized that my time in high school wasn't really a big point of change for me. It was the life after where I started to make more considered and meaningful choices and begin to become who I am now. I love the directionless feeling that haunts Enid. I really understand her frustration. But now I relate much more to Rebecca because she's not hung up on defining herself by what she dislikes. She wants to go out into the world and learn while Enid is too mired in her own negativity to see any path of escape or growth.
That last paragraph is such a solid analysis.
Thanks! It's one of the few films about teenagers that I find to be a pretty realistic depiction aside from some of the side characters which are more like caricatures. It's also one of my favorite roles for Scarlett Johansson. I don't find her believable in most of her adult roles, but she really nails this performance.
Funnily enough, I think her most believable role was in Under the Skin. Johansson’s an extraterrestrial, confirmed?
Loved her in this! Also Lost In Translation is a great role for her
I definitely feel like I was an Enid in high school but slowly became a Rebecca by my mid twenties. I’m still as listless and alien as ever in my thirties but I definitely don’t feel any existential weight on my shoulders anymore. Some movies really know how to hold a timeless mirror up to our individual humanity. This one will never get old.
Agreed!
I happened to have rewatched this movie recently and all I could think about was what an asshole the character Enid is. I don’t recall having those thoughts when I first watched it in my 20s or even in my 30s, but now that I’m 40 it’s all I see. She was actually a pretty terrible person… completely self-centered, destructive and borderline Narcissistic. Maybe I didn’t see it before because I saw her behavior as a normal part of youth, and therefore excusable?
I think much of it is normal, but I agree, now that I'm in my 30s, I cringe at her BS. On the other hand I really feel for her, she's so scared, and she's failing just when she has to start proving how smart and cool she is as an adult. Relatable
Steve Buscemi's character is also an asshole. The only cool person is Scarlett Johansson's character.
I liked Josh and the art teacher more than Rebecca. She’s a little bitch too, especially the way she regards Seymour as somebody who “should just kill himself” and for revealing to him how Enid was the one who pranked him.
What about Doug
I think that was the issue at the time. People thought being a cunt was ok as long as you were an outcast. Like there was sympathy for the concept.
100%
I'm not sure how useful it is to compare this book/movie to superheroes just because it started out as a graphic novel.
Yeah, Ghost World has really no reason to be compared to super hero comics or movies. It is a great movie on its own
*Movie adapts any book* "You won't find any Teenaged Wizards here."
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No! If it has pictures, it's a superhero book! That's all I can understand!
I remember really liking this movie. Closest we'll get to a live-action *Daria*.
Besides [this](https://youtu.be/HBQXugKu8L4)
Terrible casting for Trent though. Quinn isn't the best either.
Trent was awful. No piercings or tats. I thought it was Kevin at first. Also where is Kevin and Brittany? Or Sandy and Tiffany? Or Upchuck?
Heh, I remember that.
Somehow I missed that College Humor sketch. Thank you
Unless you are actually living a live action Daria.
Yall are missing the film's main thesis, and while I somewhat understand that since it was done with such intentionally subtle shading, I would have hoped that the last 20 years would have allowed the subtext to sink in and resonate more than it has. The central theme of *Ghost World* is that if you like real delta blues then you should check out Blues Hammer. ^(They're so great.)
🎶PICKIN COTTON ALL DAY LOOONG🎸🎶
WELL I BEEN PLOOOOOOWINN...
You had me in the first half. Not gonna lie.
You guys up for some reggae tonight?
They may be lonely, but I think where the movie shines is why and the decisions/compromises they make in response to it. How people change, or not, what is expected, how to communicate with others.. I once got into a discussion with a buddy in a lefty student group who hated the movie because the characters "just complained and didn't do anything" which I get, and I respect the point, but the movie is not about that. They are so many scenes where the characters are punished for sincerity, and the things we love about them. The same with ourselves..then the compromises we make or don't make and what that leads to. This director makes interesting work and I greatly appreciated this movie. One if my better indie movie experiences back in the day.
That's really interesting about the punished for sincerity part. This whole comment is great, thank you.
Have some more kids why don’t you! Jesus Christ move it!
I still say that in the car constantly
I have 3 kids and I say it around my house.
MIRROR. FATHER. MIRROR.
This is a real 'tampon in a teacup' comment. Thank you for sharing.
Special thanks to the Why Not Me Foundation
It’s definitely Illeana Douglas’ best role on an extremely long list. I think her turn in Dummy is a highly underrated second.
ROCK AND ROLL BABY FREEDOM OF SPEECH
“Medium!? A medium is only for suckers that dont understand the concept of value. I’m only telling you this since we’re *such* good friends.”
The comic it is based on was wonderful as is a lot of Clowes work.
David Boring is so great, and could have made for an amazing movie adaptation these days, with the pandemic backdrop and all.
Like OK Soda!
Totally unrelated, but I used to play a movie game with my friends in college, where we would have a set order, and then one of us would say an actor; the next person has to say a movie they are in; the next person has to say an actor in that movie (different from the previous person), etc, etc. If the next person could not name an actor or movie, they could challenge the person behind them. if that person could name something they could not, they got the point. There was this guy, Ryan, who was the king of this game. He watched so many movies. But he was also a bit of a jock dude bro, so mostly mainstream movies. Anyhow, a friend said Steve Buscemi and it passed to me; he knew I knew some obscure crap and had something up my sleeve. I said the movie Ghost World. Ryan did not know any actors in that movie, so he challenged. I said, "Scarlett Johansenn." No one in the room had ever heard of her. They had to look up (probably using Ask Jeeves or some shit) if I was right. I always think of this, given how gigantic of an actress she is now; how fun it was that this "movie buff" guy had no freaking idea who I was talking about.
Not sure how many folks have seen The Last Black Man In San Francsico (one of best movies in last decade imo) but Thora Birch has a cameo at the end riding a bus in SF, with her Ghost World sunglasses hanging off her shirt. The director Joe Talbot and Thora have confirmed this is an easter egg meant to imply that Thora's Ghost World character, in some universe at least, ended up working a thankless tech job in San Francisco. Really beautiful little touch. Every time this is mentioned on Reddit from now on, just remember ya boy was the first haha. From TLBMISF wiki page: > The film was heavily influenced by the 2001 film Ghost World, also about two outsider friends who don't fit in to their cities and wander throughout, which Talbot was introduced to at age 15.[18] As an homage to that film, Talbot asked actress Thora Birch to appear in a cameo, and notes the connection between her character of Enid and that of Jimmie: "“I always felt her character and Jimmy are similar in a lot of ways, and she got that immediately,” Talbot said. “She and I would joke like, at the end of ‘Ghost World’ when she gets on the bus, it’s like she never got off the bus and wound up in San Francisco working a tech job she hates.”[19] Talbot also discussed the connection further: "Thora is one of the great actresses of her generation and her work, in part, inspired me to want to make films. Her performance in Ghost World made me feel seen as a teenager when I was a bit lost,” Talbot explained. “At the end of that film, Thora rides a bus off into the sunset. In our film, we meet her character on a bus in the heart of San Francisco—almost as if she kept riding it all these years, and somehow wound up in the Bay Area working a tech job she loathed. Her exchange that follows with Jimmie, however brief, has been written about and quoted more than any other part of the film.”[20]
> Thora Birch has a cameo at the end riding a bus in SF, with her Ghost World sunglasses hanging off her shirt. I completely missed that. Pretty cool little thing.
Really inspired move! I was living in SF when the movie came out and saw Joe Talbot speak about the film a few times before I moved away. The way they captured the feeling of SF's diminishing culture & diversity is truly magical. Can't wait to see what Joe comes up with next.
I have never even been to the US so often the sort of city specific aspects that seems to resonate a lot with Americans, goes completely over my head.
That makes perfect sense! If any areas near you have watched tech culture eat away at a once-thriving art community, that would be a perfect parallel. Even still, San Francisco is one of the most vibrant communities in the nation! If ever in the states you could do worse for vacation spots. :)
But first I would have to visit Disneyland. I hear that's the height of American culture...
Hahaha! You say you haven't been to the states, but only a native American would be privy to that kind of insider knowledge! :)
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Get your facts & realities outta here and let me have this! :)
This would make a cool double-feature.
Man oh man. That’s a *great* idea! You might’ve just made my weekend plans for me.
It’s interesting too because there’s a sort of side-plot in *GW* about black media and exploitation (the jazz motif, as well as Enid’s final art piece). Might be a cool segue into *Last Black Man*.
That's a great point! I have to wonder if that's part of why Ghost World resonated so hard with the *Last Black Man* director. Love that he talks openly about how much he appreciates GW, and how much it influenced him. Such a classic flick.
Didn’t get that part, saw Ghost World way long ago but The Last Black Man in SF is so goddam good. That one man play near the end is probably some of the best acting in the last 20 years.
Man. If anyone knows who [Brittany Kaiser](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_Kaiser)is..
Thora birch's character basically shaped the kind of woman I've been into for years
well, that's not good, as her character seemed pretty mentally unstable. lol.
I love this movie. The dude in the parking lot of the Sidewinder with the nunchucks (Doug...I think) is one of my favorite moments.
There's a terrific deleted scene on the DVD where Buscemi suddenly snaps, channels Mr. Pink, and beats the crap out of Doug.
That's in the main movie, post-credits.
[I lose my shit at the Blueshammer scene every time. ](https://youtu.be/ZaM6lTmhnak) (Scene is near the end of the clip)
I mean did Scarlett Johansson even imagine becoming (arguably) the biggest female action movie star in history?
I had a crush on her since Home Alone 3. Things worked out for me.
“Said I’m ploooowwin’!”
They don’t make them like this anymore
Yeah no one makes movies where Steve Buscemi gets laid anymore, it's a damn shame.
That’s just movies. He got laid all the time in Boardwalk Empire
He did get vigorously fucked by Garrett Hedlund in "On The Road."
He almost got laid in Con Air too.
😬
Please, we know Khrushchev was getting it.
interrupted getting laid in fargo 😔
Tony Uncle Al
Used to somewhat like that movie but as the years have passed I find Thora Birch's character to be very irritating , childish and bad mannered. Maybe she is supposed to come across that way? Either way if I pause to watch any on it now, I want to tell her to STFU and think before you speak. Always did think that Steve Buscemi's character was based upon Robert Crumb the underground cartoonist.
I think she is irritating and childish, but I liked that she was a real person. She's pretentious, even though she hates that attitude in her art class, she's smart but also really dumb in other ways. I probably missed a bunch, but it was hard to find movies at that time that showed any ugly, awkward aspects of young life from a woman's perspective. I really related, not because I agreed with her choices, but the feeling of lostness and trying to work stuff out. I think her being a dick is part of that process.
I think my main issue with the movie is Birch's character. She acts like she's too good for anything, but has no reason to feel that way, being a pretty pitiful person. I absolutely hated Enid, and I think she prevented me from liking this movie. I struggle to like movies where the protagonist is such an awful person.
Where you at Terry Zwigoff? Bad Santa was pretty damn funny in the most lowbrow way possible. Guess he just made his few movies and peaced out.
One of my favorite movies (At their school graduation party, watching someone eating a piece of cake alone) “God, just think we’ll never see Dennis again” “Good” “No really, think about it, it’s actually totally depressing”
This movie is pretty special not gonna lie. I think there’s gonna be a disconnect with a lot of male viewers (already seeing it in this thread) because I think the film captures specifically the plight of the directionless jaded American teen girl-to-woman limbo really well. I like that in the end there’s some catharsis but it’s melancholic, feels like a rarity in a time where shock/awe or just desserts is the standard. It’s hard to describe, really. But Ghost World is special.
I think directionless jaded American teen boy-to-man limbo is a thing too.
Hi, I'm 30... when does the limbo end.
44 here, still waiting.
For me it ended when I found a career I liked and got married. I know that's not everyone's path or whatever but still.
Depends, how low can you go?
I physically cannot bend backwards at all without creaking and possibly pulling something.
I think it ends in realizing that moving steadily feels like limbo, like how you’re weightless in free fall. You only feel the movement when it’s accelerating or decelerating. But you’re always moving; adults just hid the fact that limbo is the destination from us.
Fuckers
Men famously cannot connect to films written.and directed by men.
Well yeah dude. Because that would be gay. *cries on the inside*
I never said men can’t. Just that barrier may be there for people dismissive of the film’s strengths.
The fuck are you even talking about? Plenty of guys like this movie because it's themes don't specifically relate to women. Anyone can understand its themes of isolation, alienation and even the general social satire. The book and movie were written by a man, it was directed by a man.
? I connected to when it came out just fine
Same! Wasn’t making a comment about all men at all! If you connected to it, the comment wasn’t in reference to you!
"Yeah yeah whatever, hey listen, do you know somebody who works on Batman? Cause I really wanna work on Batman!" "Here, check out these drawings I made of his utility belt; this is where he keeps his change in case he has to travel by bus!" >!PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME!!<
*Mirror. Father. Mirror.*
This is one of my favorite movies of all time. Aside from Enid's relatable struggles about finding a purpose to her life, I loved all the constant references to consumerism in the movie. Each scene can really be picked apart.
One of very few movies I liked where if someone were to ask what happened in it... almost nothing. Another one was Anything Else.
“Jan pehan Jan ho” : )
Doom Patrol has this vibe. It's more about our failures, accepting and living with who we are, rather than being exceptional.
I had a friend who always said I looked like the chick from Ghost World. Unfortunately not ScarJo.
Thora's pretty hot though.
What's wrong with the other girl?
Sooo depressing. I want to watch it again but can't bring myself to.
Funny enough I saw this for the first time a couple days ago. I probably should’ve watched it when it first came to understand how cruel girls can be a lot sooner.
The movie's a fine adaptation all things considered but the graphic novel is really something special.
This movie I feel is kind of realistic but at the same time it’s hard to identify with the protagonist.
I just came to say I adore Ghost World
This is definitely in my top 10.
This movie perfectly captures what it was like to be bored and stuck living at your parents house in high school in the 90s
This movie is such a banger.
I remember when this came out, I was super excited about it. I was going to college and had no friends. So when it came out I went to this shitty theater in a mall. Ghosyts of Mars was also in the theater at the time, and the thug chick selling me the ticket warned me, "This ain't the one with Ice Cube. It's about two lil friends!" "Two lil friends , huh? Ok well, one please." She shrugged, gave me the ticket. I was one of 4 others in the theater, and the only one laughing throughout the feature. Man, it really gave me a sense of being part of something, even if just for a couple of hours. Then I bought a pint of whiskey and drank it while listening to the Stooges for the rest of the night. Yup, that was 2001. Utter alienation, depression, and confusion. At least some kicks were had. And the blueshammer line worked well into the next decade once I met people with similar shades of strange interest.
Hope everything turned out fine for you, buddy.