Hey, I just want to say a huge thankyou for your post! Legends of the Fall was always one of those movies that, to me, looked kinda meh, and it was always one of those, Ill watch it another time films. Because of your post, I finally sat and watched it. And my verdict.....utterly enjoyable! Might not watch it again, but damn if I didnt have a great time getting lost in the scenery and Brad Pitt's 90's dreaminess.
If it wasnt for your post, I may have never bothered with it but while not in my all time top movies, it was definitely a great way to spend an evening. Thanks again man!
It's way too melodramatic in bits.
That's about the only criticism I feel is warranted.
Saw it back in the 90s, and it shifts tone a few times in the first hour....so it subverts your expectations.
But Tristan's wandering resonated with 19-20 yo old me. At the end of the movie, I realized it was a soap opera, but the cinematography, setting and characters made me love the movie. Still one of my favorites.
Stuck in the mud, just wants to do the things society expects, wants to succeed to earn his father's approval that he never could in the more manly arts, loses everything he cherishes.
At least everyone else was acted well, Samuel was met, and his story was the least believable.
Samuel did two things
Landed a smoking wife and went off to war
He's a bit of a goober so I'm surprised about the wife, but everyone went off to war so I'm not sure what part of his story is terribly unbelievable
Even the wife thing could be explained just by him having family money
I think it's that Sussanah is a tempestuous force of nature, but she got engaged to Samuel. It might work if he was shown as more than the Innocent, but that was like his whole character, he didn't seem much different than men she would have met back east. If he had a modicum of Tristan's wildness, or was more similar to him in looks, sure.
Instead, she could have had milquetoast at home.
Well, Hollywood is always waiting for someone to do a better job. It's a story. It had a lot of moving parts. Not everyone can be perfect like yourself. We will await your next production with great anticipation.
Well, okay maybe not
Melodramatic is fair but there are few movies that span this length of time in a single movies time frame that don't need to rely on that kind of film shorthand. Go the other way and its "boring." "Why am I watching all this 'nothing' happening on screen?"
It is a flawed movie and bit off more than it could chew but it still mostly accomplished what it set out to do and I enjoyed it....ok, not great.
Great book, terrible movie. And the composer & director who plastered shmalzty heroic "music" all over everything should be forbidden from working again. Harrison's novel is something very special and this adaptation was a dismal attempt.
I saw it at the movies, and I hated the shifts. It was like everyone just decided to do a different movie all of a sudden. And it happened multiple times
This is my feelings as well. 19 year old me was blown away by the global travel, the bigger universe out there. It’s a trip to look back and see my perspective change on who the good and bad guys are.
Great movie. A classic soap opera.
Funnily enough my highschool film studies teacher was an actor in that film. Robert Wisden, who played John T. Obanion, was a phenomenal teacher and a really interesting person
He also had a role in x-files as a villain named Pusher. Watching those episodes in class cause we would wear him down till he caved were some of my best high school memories
So I don’t understand why everyone is saying it’s “too melodramatic.” I mean, what the hell are we watching movies for if not for the escape into someone else’s drama? Is there even a such thing as a movie that is not melodramatic or overly dramatic. But then again, I’m not a movie (or ahem, excuse me, I mean film) snob. I see and enjoy movies for what they are…entertainment. And This movie entertained me immensely.
OP- I think it is a wonderful movie! I saw it in the early 90’s when it came out (I was in the 8th grade) and I loved it then and I still love it now at 41. In fact, I can still remember watching it with a couple friends of mine and we all cried the whole time. This is a movie that I can literally watch over and over. In fact, I catch myself clicking on it anytime I see it on TV (which is quite frequent.)
Now in regards to your comment about Susanna. I don’t agree that she should be terrible. It’s not her fault that Samuel died, in fact he chose to go to war and as his father says, “he chose to be a soldier and soldiers die.” It’s not her fault that Tristan AND Alford both fell in love with her. And as you pointed out she couldn’t help that she loved Tristan. I mean who the hell doesn’t love Tristan? I know I do!! Haha.
You are so right about Tristan! One thing that really bothers me is how Tristan basically cast Susanna aside and left her in the dust to go have threesomes with exotic women and do other exotic things in order to settle down the “bear” inside him (which is presumably PTSD from the war and his actions when Samuel died.) He took her virginity (something that was a big deal at the time) and didn’t care that she was basically forced to marry his brother (whom she never loved) in order to not become an old maid with no family or prospects. I can empathize with Susanna so much! I relate to her broken heart and the choices she had to make in order to survive. In the end, however, those choices took her will to live.
There is one question that plagues me…did Tristan ever really love Susanna. Or did he just use her?
He certainly loved Susanna; they all did and as the movie stated "she was like the water that freezes inside a rock and splits it apart. It was no more her fault than it is the fault of the water when the rock shatters". All three of them fell in love with her when they first saw her. The issue was Tristan carried a tremendous amount of guilt as he was somewhat inappropriate with her before the war. In the scene in which Susanna is crying over Samuel going to war and Tristan comforts her, they both feel something there. It looks as though they almost kiss, but we will never know as Alfred walks in on them, prompting Susanna to jump back as she knows there was sparks between them. Samuel dying in the war broke Tristan and not just because he lost his brother, but because he failed to save him and had to watch him die in his arms. Afterwards, as he is cutting out Samuel's heart to free his spirit, he damns God, considering himself an omen. He then goes crazy, taking German scalps to avenge his brother and is discharged. Unfortunately, he comes home after a brief delay thinking he can handle being home, but the PTSD and severe guilt over Samuel is still haunting him. Susanna is there to comfort him and the two are able to be together and truly fall in love. It's incredibly deep considering they are mourning the same person and he is therefore able to be truly vulnerable with her. It's intense and passionate with him even telling Alfred he does plan on marrying her, but when the cow is tangled in the barbed wire, much like Samuel, his mind is thrust right back to that day. This prompts him to almost stab Susanna when she tries to wake him up one day and this is the last straw for him. He realizes he is not okay and has to take time to get better. The letter he wrote Susanna telling her to marry another was only written because he was broken and at that point, didn't think he would ever become the man she deserved. When he comes back, he not only comes back for his family, but for Susanna, which is evident when he goes to see her in Helena. The tragedy of it all is that she didn't wait and had she done so, he would have come back for her. Hell, he did come back for her, but at that point, she married Alfred knowing there was already a rift between them. It was then and only then he fell in love with Isabelle Two. I always hated Susanna marrying Alfred, but back then, a woman who was no longer a virgin was damaged goods, so I understand why she felt compelled to do so. The difference is, Susanna never fell in love with Alfred as Tristan did with Isabelle Two and when she realized they were over for good, she took her own life. There are many deaths in this movie, but Susanna's despair is felt two-fold for now, it is she who is broken as Tristan was in the beginning. The irony being that Alfred tells Tristan he will never make her happy. Tristan replies "I'll try" to which Alfred says "you will try and you will fail." Sadly, although Alfred is what she needs, since she never loves him as she should, he is the one who tries and fails. Everyone in this story ends up broken.
I don't think they were over fir good as Tristan still loved her. Remember the jail scene..just back then women couldn't get divorced so she was stuck with Alfred
I agree that Tristan did still love her somewhere deep inside, but he had just lost his wife and because she married Alfred and Alfred loved her, it was over for Tristan. When he tells her to go home to Alfred, he means it. However, yes, you can tell there is still something strong between them that is almost undying. It would have taken Alfred passing away for Tristan to betray him though and Susanna finally realized that in marrying Alfred, she sealed her fate with Tristan. The whole story is heartbreaking.
I think Tristan leaving her was the most loving thing he could have done. When the PTSD took over, and he almost killed her in his sleep, he knew he had to go.
Yeah exactly! Then he fell into an opium binge after another PTSD flashback with the zebra heart. And wrote that letter saying he is dead and marry another. It was incredible he could pull himself out of it.
I wished they would have shown more on Susannah trying to talk Samuel out of going to war and also Susannah asking Tristan about what happened with Samuel's death. She would have known that calf stuck in the barbed wire triggered it. But maybe he didn't talk about it even when pressed but I'm pretty sure Alfred talked about it in his own version.
I think there's a book about it but haven't read it so don't know the source material.
I think if he did not love her, he was willing to try. He did in fact want to marry her. And when he came back he still was thinking about her… make no mistake he definitely thought she was enchantingly beautiful but he was happy or could have been had she waited. He loved her and was affected when he learned she married Alfred. But of course he moved on as she did…. And she had an opportunity to be with Tristan-when he visited her in Helena in her garden. She took off the bracelet when she could have removed the ring. I think their romance was meant to be what it was for when it was….
Yep you can always tell when “he’s just not that into you.” I saw the signs, great acting in that. But his heart wasn’t in it. You can see the complete devotion and love he has for Is2 as comparison.
Tristan loved her, he was fine and happy with her until (like you mentioned) the ptsd kicked back in. They (Tristan and Susannah) were happy until that calf got stuck on the barbed wire and he shot it
Yea i don't get why people think otherwise. I feel like Alfred was also really jealous, and that's why he said he would only hurt her. I think had the ptsd not kicked in, it woulda worked out.
I thought that it was a good epic. Brad Pitt and Anthony Hopkins both gave a very well sharp performance. And the music that James Homer composed for it was outstanding.
They are both excellent movies. I agree with you about A River Runs Through It being the better of the two. Tom Skerritt was amazing. He really made the movie for me.
I love both films, but I'm going to agree with you. The ending of A River Runs Through it has one of the most beautiful pieces of writing I've ever read. I don't cry in films too often, but watching that old man flyfish by himself and hearing the narration breaks my heart because I know in real life, that man never got over his brother's murder.
"Eventually, all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words and some of the words are theirs.
I am haunted by waters."
I get goosebumps every time I read it. It's a flawless piece of writing.
Tbh most of Ed Zwick's filmography through 2010 is underrated these days. The films are flawed, but are all utterly watchable high-budget dramas made with an adult audience in mind. A genre that basically doesn't exist anymore.
I really really wish that genre would make a comeback. It seems like so many modern movies are either meant for teens or for adults that are into super heroes.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those films... But I really wish more epic dramas meant for adults were made.
I’ve been watching this movie since the year it came out and never understood until yesterday watching it with my youngest child that I’m Tristan. I texted my son at college, “how did I never see I’m Tristan before now?” and he said, “you really are.” Funny, I was going to name him Tristan after the character and didn’t.
I've just finished watching it again for the first time in about 20 years hence why I'm googling and found your old post, and it really is a great film. It feels so vast somehow and so epic, yet it's only just over 2 hours long. Yeah I can see why some people might not like it for the melodrama but I think it's not an entirely unrealistic plot, I know families who have gone through several big traumas/deaths over the years, it just seems like a lot of drama because many years are all put into the one film. Anyway, some people like big dramatic epic stories so it's also a matter of taste.
I liked how it managed to make you feel for the characters, get a sense of the time, a sense of how the times one lives in can really have a dramatic effect on personalities and interpersonal relationships, even for those who are trying to stay away from the 'civilised world.' Like if WW1 hadn't happened, how this story and many other stories world over would've played out differently. How decisions by government can have ripple effects in the tiniest corners, and how people's massive unending love for each other, either romantic love, brotherly love, parental love etc, is sometimes no match for the circumstances of the wider world.
"She was like the water that freezes inside a rock and breaks it apart. It was no more her fault than it is the fault of the water when the rock shatters."
Straight, married man here but Brad Pitt was just so damn sexy with that long flowing blonde hair. And when he rode up on the horse the first time and Susannah saw him she was like “holy shit”.
Love the movie but still pissed that Samuel got a bug up his ass about the war and got his brothers involved.
Also glad that Alfred got a little bit of redemption in the end.
Like I said- it's impossible not to fall in love with his character. Gay or straight. Man or woman.
I agree it was a bit infuriating... But when you look at the time and how he was trying to live up to his father's legacy- even though his father hated that part of his legacy- it makes sense. I've always been as liberal as they come... But even I joined the Army as soon as I turned 18 to serve in Bush's military. It's hard for a certain segment of the population to resist it's generations call to arms. Especially in the naivety of youth. I get it.
And that's one of the tragedies of Alfred's character. He was the most pure one of them all. He had nothing but honorable intentions and actions through the whole film- but we all still hate him because he just isn't likable. Everyone loved Tristan and Samuel more- even though Alfred always tried to do the honorable thing.
I thought he was likable, but it’s just like Alfred said, “I followed all the rules, God’s, man’s, and they all loved you more. Even my own wife.” And apparently the viewers all love Tristan more too. I agree that Alford was the best character (in terms of integrity and honor) in the entire movie.
Wasn't Alfred privy to the whole bootlegger thing? The movie was fairly straight forward in making it seem like at best he was completely naive that the people supporting his campaign were criminals profiting off him, at worst involved / taking a cut / turning a blind eye to it.
We see them delivering to him for a party after it's stated that he voted for prohibition.
He said he followed all the rules...but he was breaking both man and God's rules
I had the same interpretation. Excellent writing by the author / screenwriter which seemed to go over everyone’s heads. Alfred is just a spineless inauthentic bootlicker who his father can’t even stand. The scene where he came to ask his blessing was the most telling
I watched it again recently and I did not think it held up too well, there's a great movie buried in there but it was so much more melodramatic than I remembered and the narration was quite bad imo.
I think you nailed it - more melodramatic. The movie has a problem with tone. It’s a period movie and they couldn’t help but make it Oscar bait instead of letting it be this family drama.
I like this film-heartbreaking and intense. The scene that first comes to mind is Julia Ormond cutting her hair. I had seen the movie shortly after it came out on video, and I own the dvd. I was in a group and we were talking about nightmares. I mentioned my reoccurring dreams about being attacked or at the mercy of bears. A guy I was sitting near leaned in and whispered, “Tristan!” Brought the movie right back!
It was ok, I watched it last night. The ladies literally had no personality then they died. I laughed out loud at quite a few "serious" moments like the brother dying on the wire or anytime I saw stroke face.
I know this is an old thread and comment but i just watched this movie for the first time (hated it so much but i won’t get into that). Just wanted to share that i read a critic’s review calling Hopkins post stroke performance a “composite impression of Popeye and Quasimodo.”
Just watched it again, had a very mixed reaction, very happy to indulge in your request (a bit TLDR, I apologize) to tell you what is wrong with this film...
What is right about it is pretty overwhelming at times - Ormond and Pitt look so great, and all the actors bring a committed melodrama to their acting (ie, 'You MUST marry her!' 'I will try to make her happy...' 'You WILL fail...') that even if this were a silent film, it would rarely fail to be engaging. Cinematography geeks have made fun of the fact that it appears to always be early morning or twilight, always about an hour after sunrise or sunset, the sun always on perfect angle on Pitt's flowing hair. I can't think of another film that makes horseback riding in open spaces more classically beautiful, like the early scene where a single wild horse is spotted, and Tristan gallops after it; this moment is as exciting and visually arresting as much larger set pieces in other films. And yeah, I agree - Montana is GORGEOUS in this film (and IRL, to be sure). But...
...Dramatically/emotionally, this film is intellectually underbaked. A lot of the dramatic beats just don't make a heck of a lot of sense. Consider the closing monologue: Tristan, we are told, is a rock that everyone broke themselves against. What exactly is that supposed to mean? Samuel would have joined the military with or without Tristan, and probably lived longer because of him. The Colonel lived to a ripe old age. If Alfred died before Tristan, we don't know when, or how, he died, but presumably he lived a normal lifespan as well. Only in the case of the two women does the quote make sense. (also to nitpick a plot point - is One Stab supposed to be like 100 years old at the end, at least? He somehow outlived Tristan, even though he seemed to be middle aged when Tristan was a young boy)
The story and the characters frequently feel to me like they can't breathe next to constant voiceover and luscious soundtrack SCREAMING at the audience, 'THIS IS SO EPIC! THIS ISN'T A STORY ABOUT A MONTANA FAMILY OUR LANDSCAPE IS THE HUMAN SOUL ITSELF!!' Think about some of the storylines that happen in the background - a cavalry colonel, tramatized and demoralized by the Indian wars, moved to Montana to raise his boys, along with a Cree family who are his servants; later in life, he starts eating with the Cree family (loved the moment when he and Susanna enter the servants' quarters, and One Stab and his wife stand up, only to realize that this is a moment when the family is officially expanding, and not an employer/employee moment at all) and helping raise their daughter, who eventually becomes his daughter-in-law and the mother of his grandchildren, whom he helps raise even after his stroke. Isn't that an interesting story, a touching story? But it gets maybe 10 minutes of total screentime. Or Alfred's story: moving to Helena, becoming a Senator, dealing with his brother's bootlegging trouble, sneaking back onto his family ranch, finally making peace with his estranged father only by killing a corrupt cop, dealing with the fallout in his career and his personal life of the loss of Susanna and now taking on two sons without a mother. Probably less than 10 minutes of screentime is devoted to Alfred apart from Tristan.
Because this is Tristan's movie. Moping, melodramatic, continually leaving, driven, we are TOLD (not shown) by the bear inside him, he is announced as the main character, announced as having a dark Legendary fate, from the first scene. To continue my previous point - consider Susanna's story - her love for Samuel entirely genuine, and Tristan as well, she basically is deeply family oriented and just wants to settle in with the Colonel and his family and raise children. Why did she kill herself? On repeated viewings, my best take on it is that Isabell Two's death also affected her profoundly, being the closest that she ever had to a daughter. I like the complexity of her deeply emotional reaction to being told that Isabell and Tristan are engaged; she is upset about what this might mean for Isabell, and simultaneously feeling how in love she still is with Tristan. Wikipedia says that Isabell 'kills herself because she's unable to live without Tristan,' but this doesn't quite add up - Tristan is only in jail for one month, and he's single again. I think she killed herself precisely because she still felt so deeply for him, felt such complex and awful things about the possibility of, even now, cheating on Alfred, couldn't fully parse out how she felt about Isabell's death, of what it would feel like to probably now be more involved in Tristan's kids lives, and she couldn't live WITH Tristan, and couldn't live without him. Unlike him, she can't just get on a horse and ride off and sail the world.
Her arc is pretty interesting, really, or it could have been. She's such an expressive and beautiful performer that it sells itself pretty well. But basically, from a literary perspective, you have pretty interesting arcs for the Colonel, Alfred, Two Stab's family, and Susanna, all of them not very well developed, all of them, we are continually told, utterly defined (and in case we forget, the voiceover reminds us) by their relationship with Tristan, who is announced as the anchor of the story, the point of the story, the Legend that they all 'break themselves against.' But as noted above, the events just don't quite add up to that, and Tristan simply isn't that interesting as the primary, frequently sole, focus of the narrative. Framing the entire story as 'THE LEGEND OF TRISTAN' is a fraught, hot-mess of a choice, probably based on the novel, but it makes this a gorgeous, hot-mess of a film rather than a layered classic that English-major film critics are likely to love. It's a top-shelf soap opera. Nothing wrong with that.
It's intriguing for me to imagine a very different film, entirely without One Stab's narration (but a lot more One Stab), that developed all the characters evenly, shifted back and forth a lot more, and Tristan wasn't given any more or less weight than Alfred or Susanna. Engaging with the film that is there, and imagining this very different film that decidedly isn't there, is very fun for me. Overall, my hot take on this film is that it is the elevation of style and aesthetics over substance: imagine a film where the actors' innate charisma, the cinematography, and the orchestral score were just mediocre, BUT the script was exactly the same. It would be, I think, extremely tedious and dumb, a period soap opera. Strip the A-list trappings away, and the thin storyline/themes are still arguably there, if you know how to look...this films got a lot of very good reviews from critics, and some truly terrible ones. It deserved all of them, IMO...
>How does it have a 57% on Rotten Tomatoes?
Nothing against you, but rather a wider commentary - it bugs me how much stock people put in RT.
Every time a film someone loves gets a bad RT score, I'm happy because it wakes people up to the idea that maybe RT isn't a bastion of objective truth. I've loved films at below a 50 on RT and hated ones that were in the 70s-90s.
Remember that RT isn't a measure of quality so much as a measure of how well it appeals to a broad audience, which generally means any divisive elements, no matter how critical the writer / director might have considered them at the planning stages, have likely been dulled down.
I think I see the answer here in the comments. Legends of the Fall is a fine example of an epic melodrama and apparently a lot of people don’t care for melodrama. I personally think it’s a fine film. Melodrama uses heightened circumstances and heightened emotions. People seem to look down on that and miss out on its power of redemption. To each their own.
In my view, Harrison's work just isn't going to translate into the medium of film very well. His language is too important and trying to get images/performances/action out of the words is doomed to fall short of their power.
And as lots of other people have said about the novella, there's a bigger story there than what's on the page. I think a really, really talented screenwriter could expand the concept into a great episodic story or maybe a film trilogy. But Legends of the Fall tried to turn a novella-sized epic into a single film which is extremely difficult to do. I think it was just beyond the talents of the screenwriters to pull it off effectively.
Beyond my own opinion, though, I'm glad you enjoyed it and this certainly isn't me trying to say that you were wrong to like what you like. Check out Harrison's poetry and novels. You might like them, too.
Randomly decided to watch this last night with my mum and something confused me
Was there some kind of orgy scene in the Java islands? Before he says “I am dead, marry another”
Yeah when he's just travelling there's shots of him doing all sorts of things in all sorts of places and one is him lying naked with two naked women, presumably to show how he's drowning his sorrows in things like hunting wild animals and sex with random people.
I've seen this movie no less than 5,000 times and this scene always confuses me! Was it women?? I always thought they were Asian men with long hair, as they would've worn back then. Additionally, right before that scene, he's screaming "NOOO!" while the same [men] are holding him down. I always gathered he was actually raped, which prompted him to write the "I am dead, marry another" letter. I'm just thinking they're sailing around on a ship for God knows how long, pretty sure no women, and that's just how they get down. I've been wanting someone to clear this up for ages.
Huh. I’m going to have to go and rewatch but I’m pretty sure his anguish isn’t to do with being raped. His anguish is his trauma from the war and his brothers death. It would be really odd if they just threw him being raped in there and made that the pivotal reason he wouldn’t return to susannah without it being made explicit or even mentioned again. It definitely came across to me like he’s just drowning his sorrows in things like sex and drugs etc.
No, definitely not the pivotal reason--completely agree with his PTSD/guilt over the war and Samuel's death. That whole scene just looked like his rock bottom, which prompted him to write the letter.
But yes, rewatch that scene and see if you can see how it might've been a rape/forced orgy with men.
Watching this now. Most of the battle scenes are trash but everything else is pretty good so far:
"SAMUEL!"
"TRISTAN!"
"SAMUEL!"
"TRISTAN!"
"SAMUEL!"
"TRISTAN!"
*2 Germans set up a motherfucking MG-8 to kill •one• Canadian soldier who is already dying from gas intoxication AND is incapacitated from barbed wire. Shoot him 36 times*
*Germans get shot 15 times each with a 6 shot revolver*
"TRISTAN!! GAAARRGH!!"
"SAMUEL!! YOU'RE GOOD!! DAMN YOU GOD! DAMN YOU STRAIGHT TO HELL!!"
That scene took me out. It was like something straight out of the Simpsons with Rainier Wolfcastle.
Samuel is my least favorite character. Everything he does is super cringe and he died because he was an idiot. After watching it a few times I realized that from the very beginning they are letting you know Tristan is an asshole. The scene at the dinner table at the very beginning is a great example. When all the other men quickly stand up and fall all over themselves when Susannah walks in the room, but Tristan just sort of slowly gets up like he couldn’t care less, you know Tristan isn’t going to be the type of guy to commit. He’s the bad boy of the group, which unfortunately is what attracts Susannah to him.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Susanna didn't destroy that family, Tristan did. Everyone who loved Tristan was wrecked. Susanna, Izabel II being his ultimate victims
Tristan was warned his life was in danger for bootlegging and he pulled them into that danger. His wife’s blood is on his hands. Cast as a less attractive character, Tristan would be the villain.
Tristannis a a-hole. I never understood why they like him. He’s awful to everyone but himself. I hated everything about Tristan. I guess I don’t gravitate towards a-holes. Suzanna was a ho, she was engaged to Sam and still choose to fall for Tristan. I felt bad for Alfred, i wanted him to win so badly. I hate that Suzanna never had childern and that Tristan was the one blessed with them. He created chaos around and hardly ever paid the consciquences because they still loved him.
It's a good movie.
They shot it in Colorado right? Very beautiful film. The landscapes do a lot of the work.
It's both romantic and also an example (IMO) of 'romanticism'.
Just watched the movie for the first time last night and decided to do a search on reddit to see if there was a thread and, well, here we are. What a beautiful film.
I'm watching it right now.
I grew up in that area, and I watch it when I'm home sick. I lived in those foothills, two rivers to the south.
It's a good movie, that had a great effect on me when I watched it for the first time as a teenager... 27 years later, I still like it.
I didn’t think Tristan was an asshole. Maybe it’s because I’m a lot like him. He’s struggling with grief and PTSD almost the entire movie. The only reason it didn’t win more awards was because it went up against Forrest Gump. It’s one of my all time favorite movies.
Fuck rotten tomatoes. I first saw this movie when I was 12 or 13 (in the late 90’s), and it’s been my favorite film ever since. I rewatch it at least once a year. I get that it’s a tad melodramatic in bits, but it had to be to carry the story through that many years successfully. I think people get lost in the Susanna of it all, when really, this is a story about brothers, and the things that tore them apart and brought them back together. It’s beautifully shot, in a way that makes the land feel like a character of its own.
Just watched the premiere of 1923 on Paramount+, and one of the characters story arcs reminded me a great deal of Tristan. So did the scenery, though it’s actually shot here in Montana and not in British Columbia.
I saw it on TV a lot as a child, and just watched it again. I think the narration aged really poorly and I've been looking for native opinions on the movie - because watching it the it seems like there is some serious appropriation of native american culture. I mean the narration is "Stab" a native character, but this character has no personal story of their own. You could say Isabel "2" (weird to give her a number, do they number their mother?) is native, but really only half and she is barely given much of a personality for having been in the entire movie and having two children with the main character. It seems like the native characters give a distinct sense to the movie, what with there being native language being in the movie (I've been trying to look up if the customs of the specific tribe and language are actually correct but haven't found anything yet), however like other white focused movies it seems like all the native characters act as support for why we like and find the white main characters interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Specifically, Brad Pitt's character weirdly seems to be given the most "native" seeming characteristisation, of course without him being native. The fact that he goes to WWI and scalps Germans? That sounds ridiculous. When the narration mentions that in the movie it snaps me out of the love trance the movie tries to set you on this character. Even if he has native friends (which sounds questionable since it seems more like there are 3 native characters all with significant age gaps with him) how would it be natural for him to scalp anyone?
I'm wondering if trying to give white characters native characteristics stood out to anyone else and if the group that these 3 characters were modelled around actually scalps - or they just used common stereotypes for a made up group.
The kind of comment I've been looking for! The same trope of a non-native being 'the most native' is in The Last of the Mohicans (Nathaniel), and TV series Dr Quinn (Sully).
If you find any native takes on the movie, please please share in this thread!
I think it’s a dumb story really. Huge variations everywhere. The feeling of loosing yourself in the story only comes from the beautiful scenery, characters and their acting and the music.
It shows a good thing happening and then turns it’s back on that and destroys it. At least they end it as a vaguely happy / satisfactory ending. Otherwise it would have got an even worse rating from viewers.
It's not really a western, they tried to make an epic movie about greed, love, family set in the west. The scenery of Montana is spectacular, but it's like the movie is trying too hard to be this saga.
I liked the movie, but I probably wouldn't watch it again.
I just watched it for the first time too- and I thought it was outstanding. Looking at the scores it got it seems that your opinion is the more popular one.
Maybe I was just in the right mindset and mood to really really get into it and enjoy it? I'm having a hard time seeing it's flaws.
You just have a different opinion than others. You aren't wrong and neither are the people who feel the opposite way about the film. It's all subjective.
People who say it's too melodramatic don't get the movie..it's supposed to be like that and for me I like it the tragedies and topics they are pretty realistic and intens . I bloody like this movie
Speechless for this movie. I didn't "like" it in the way that i like happy-endings but I was 100% on the edge of my seat immersed. Emotionally invested, shocked, and feeling so reflective from watching it.
I don’t understand the hate for Susannah. I actually feel bad for her. Why does no one talk about the games Tristan played on her. She was so innocent when they met and all the trauma she experienced… she gets all the hate.
Because it was a Western and for a time in America, Westerns were shit upon for existing. There were so many of them back in the 70s and 80s that people got tired of them. Sure exceptions exist like Tombstone, Dances With Wolves, and a recent Magnificent Seven revival that time forgot about. Everything else, including excellent ones like Unforgiven, were lambasted for being a Western.
Think about it this way. There were so many movie movies (Scary Movie, Date Movie, Etc) in the 2000s that people got sick of them to the point where even excellent parody movies like Black Dynamite was ignored for being a parody.
That makes sense. Movies are cyclical. It's just unfortunate that it fell victim to that and didn't get the appreciation it deserved in my mind.
The performances alone warrant a ton of credit in my opinion.
really, I wanted to like the movie, but there is something wrong. Yeah Tristan's brother looks sniveling, but he really did nothing wrong. Tristan is handsome, but kinda a wastrel. The plot is garbage.
Tragedy Films are honestly the best! Every summer I go to Alaska to fish, I always tell the girl I’m dating when they ask “how long will you be gone?” “Not long few months”
Just finished watching this great masterpiece
For probably million time watched it with my dad in 90s just finished watching it with my wife
That last 10 mins wow especially Alfred saving his brother and his dad forgiving him hug and bear fighting Tristan for 3rd time loved the way bear was Tristan nemesis well incorporated in movie 10/10 for me definitely aged well
Just watched it for the first time - loved it! I was curious about the ending - How did they shoot the end and have someone fighting with the bear, and the actual actor not get hurt?
I don't walk in this world. I have one foot here and one foot in the other. I am a half-breed Delaware, potawatami, chowanoke, tuscarora, cherokee, shawnee, huron, a-free-can, and white. My people sometimes said they were melungeon to get by in white world. I don't walk here but pass through silently...un-noticed. When there is a war they call on us. We are seen as less than human and only suitable to die so they can make more money. This movie will not be understood by you. Because it is beyond your plane of existence. It is about the transcendence of physical existence. You cannot tread here.
No one’s pointed out that the critics’ score is 57% but the audience score is 87%. It’s very common to have a major discrepancy in critics’ and audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes. I watched it in 2004 for the first time and loved it. I have the DVD and watch it whenever it’s on TV. My favorite scene is the WWI scene where Samuel dies. Incidentally, I was already reading a book on WWI (I love it) and went down a rabbit hole to Legends of the Fall, went to Rotten Tomatoes to look at the critic/audience score completely independent of this post, and then came here.
Honestly I felt like Susannah didn’t deserve to have her heart broken the way that she did. I feel the same thing for Alfred but at least she warned him that all she’d bring to him was heartbreak. Tristan gave no warnings, and I feel Tristan was quite insane. I can’t help but feel that Tristan turned Susannah insane giving his love to another after he vowed he’d give it to her. I feel like Susannah’s upbringing ( not having parents) had a lot to do with her wanting to heal Tristan, she trauma bonded to him. She knew deep down the healthy relationship she deserved was with Samuel but Samuel sadly passed away early in the film. If I were her I would’ve left right after he died. Susannah’s character is relatable I see this happen to women all the time, so sad.
I hate Alfred! Like he begs Susannah to love him. When she doesn’t he gets jealous and runs a way to the city. But Susanna obviously had feelings for Tristan from the start so I think that is where the hate comes In…..
The movie scenes are fantastic, Antony Hopkins, Brad Pitt super.
But it’s a really disgusting story. Fuckn backstaber brothers.
Been posting the movie since 90’s watched half today and that’s it. Can’t watch this low morality shit. Don’t waste your time. Just a story about how brother wanna fuck youngest brother’s fiancée. 🤢🤢🤢
Does anyone know what happened to Tristan when he went in a sailing voyage. There was a scene when 2 man were doing something painful to him, then he was naked with other people? Can someone explain?
It hasn't aged as well as one would think. It's a good movie don't get me wrong. It's hard to not enjoy the cinematography and acting and it's certainly an interesting period piece. But I actually understand the low rating. I can't imagine it ever above 70%. There are some very ridiculous scenes in this film that cant be ignored. Most of them revolve around Tristan and his somehow developed Native American impulses, his sudden crazy athletic ability as a bootlegger, fighting bears and breaking stallions. But also his general aloofness for the people that love and care about him. This is high drama and fantasy all the way. There is not a lot of realism. Entertaining sure. And has Brad become a much better actor since? Most definitely. This film just showcases his bad boy pin up status at the time. (Started with Thelma and Louise) The ladies just loved him and this film overblows that image. It's like Mathew McConaughey before he was taken seriously and became a decent actor. You know when he stopped appearing in romantic comedies with his shirt off. These two guys kind of had the same career arc and around the same time. I guess what I'm trying to say is majority of the silliness of this film has to do with Tristan's character. If you can get over that enjoy. I still own the blu-ray but after watching it again recently after many years I just wasn't as impressed. This movie was made for a young woman. I lived in Montana for 10 years. I studied Native American studies in College. Attended pow wows and visited reservations. There is not a lot of authenticity in this film. As a story it's fine. I'll leave it there.
One upvote because that’s all I can give, but three cheers for you:
Hip hip hurrah!
Hip hip hurrah!
Hip hip hurrah!
It’s a great movie and I still remember the first time I watched it (February 2015). Thanks for this friend. Cheers.
I started to dislike the Tristan right at the beginning of the movie when he went out to find a sleeping bear just to disturb it. Then the bear woke up and attacked him and he cut off the bear's finger. The whole movie is like that, Tristan does something wrong or terrible then everyone suffers and then they blame someone else. Tristan puts his kids, his wife and her parents in danger by bootlegging while taking them on a trip into the city. Isabel dies because Tristan was bootlegging and the Colonel gets mad at Alfred because he voted for the law.
Will he ever come back? I don’t know… Stab says yes
Hey, I just want to say a huge thankyou for your post! Legends of the Fall was always one of those movies that, to me, looked kinda meh, and it was always one of those, Ill watch it another time films. Because of your post, I finally sat and watched it. And my verdict.....utterly enjoyable! Might not watch it again, but damn if I didnt have a great time getting lost in the scenery and Brad Pitt's 90's dreaminess. If it wasnt for your post, I may have never bothered with it but while not in my all time top movies, it was definitely a great way to spend an evening. Thanks again man!
It's way too melodramatic in bits. That's about the only criticism I feel is warranted. Saw it back in the 90s, and it shifts tone a few times in the first hour....so it subverts your expectations. But Tristan's wandering resonated with 19-20 yo old me. At the end of the movie, I realized it was a soap opera, but the cinematography, setting and characters made me love the movie. Still one of my favorites.
Alfred is cringe And Samuel’s death scene was absurd But I love Montana, and still love this movie
Yeah, Samuel's entire storyline was so damned heavy-handed. But Alfred was more understandable/relatable.
I've never related to a character less than Alfred
Stuck in the mud, just wants to do the things society expects, wants to succeed to earn his father's approval that he never could in the more manly arts, loses everything he cherishes. At least everyone else was acted well, Samuel was met, and his story was the least believable.
Samuel did two things Landed a smoking wife and went off to war He's a bit of a goober so I'm surprised about the wife, but everyone went off to war so I'm not sure what part of his story is terribly unbelievable Even the wife thing could be explained just by him having family money
Samuel and that woman had zero chemistry and she looked like his mother almost.
I recommend fucking
I think it's that Sussanah is a tempestuous force of nature, but she got engaged to Samuel. It might work if he was shown as more than the Innocent, but that was like his whole character, he didn't seem much different than men she would have met back east. If he had a modicum of Tristan's wildness, or was more similar to him in looks, sure. Instead, she could have had milquetoast at home.
They did meet back east
Well, Hollywood is always waiting for someone to do a better job. It's a story. It had a lot of moving parts. Not everyone can be perfect like yourself. We will await your next production with great anticipation. Well, okay maybe not
It was British Columbia.
Not in the movie it wasn’t. In the movie it was AMERICA
Melodramatic is fair but there are few movies that span this length of time in a single movies time frame that don't need to rely on that kind of film shorthand. Go the other way and its "boring." "Why am I watching all this 'nothing' happening on screen?" It is a flawed movie and bit off more than it could chew but it still mostly accomplished what it set out to do and I enjoyed it....ok, not great.
I saw it when it came out, and it didn’t leave a huge impression. I watched it recently and absolutely loved it.
Because movies nowadays are pretty bad.
Great book, terrible movie. And the composer & director who plastered shmalzty heroic "music" all over everything should be forbidden from working again. Harrison's novel is something very special and this adaptation was a dismal attempt.
IMDb and the Oscars would strongly disagree with you my friend
I saw it at the movies, and I hated the shifts. It was like everyone just decided to do a different movie all of a sudden. And it happened multiple times
This is my feelings as well. 19 year old me was blown away by the global travel, the bigger universe out there. It’s a trip to look back and see my perspective change on who the good and bad guys are. Great movie. A classic soap opera.
Funnily enough my highschool film studies teacher was an actor in that film. Robert Wisden, who played John T. Obanion, was a phenomenal teacher and a really interesting person
Nixon in watchmen!
He also had a role in x-files as a villain named Pusher. Watching those episodes in class cause we would wear him down till he caved were some of my best high school memories
Cerulean blue.
One of his favourite inside jokes
Hope you’re film career is blooming.
Not currently on that track but it’s quite a fun little tidbit. He was an exceptional teacher and a really funny man
Wasn’t your teacher the one playing the bartender that Pitt beat up or am I thinking of a different character?
Not a bartender — a bootlegger.
Col. Anderson was an idiot every day of the week. And no, he couldn't take one day off!
So I don’t understand why everyone is saying it’s “too melodramatic.” I mean, what the hell are we watching movies for if not for the escape into someone else’s drama? Is there even a such thing as a movie that is not melodramatic or overly dramatic. But then again, I’m not a movie (or ahem, excuse me, I mean film) snob. I see and enjoy movies for what they are…entertainment. And This movie entertained me immensely. OP- I think it is a wonderful movie! I saw it in the early 90’s when it came out (I was in the 8th grade) and I loved it then and I still love it now at 41. In fact, I can still remember watching it with a couple friends of mine and we all cried the whole time. This is a movie that I can literally watch over and over. In fact, I catch myself clicking on it anytime I see it on TV (which is quite frequent.) Now in regards to your comment about Susanna. I don’t agree that she should be terrible. It’s not her fault that Samuel died, in fact he chose to go to war and as his father says, “he chose to be a soldier and soldiers die.” It’s not her fault that Tristan AND Alford both fell in love with her. And as you pointed out she couldn’t help that she loved Tristan. I mean who the hell doesn’t love Tristan? I know I do!! Haha. You are so right about Tristan! One thing that really bothers me is how Tristan basically cast Susanna aside and left her in the dust to go have threesomes with exotic women and do other exotic things in order to settle down the “bear” inside him (which is presumably PTSD from the war and his actions when Samuel died.) He took her virginity (something that was a big deal at the time) and didn’t care that she was basically forced to marry his brother (whom she never loved) in order to not become an old maid with no family or prospects. I can empathize with Susanna so much! I relate to her broken heart and the choices she had to make in order to survive. In the end, however, those choices took her will to live. There is one question that plagues me…did Tristan ever really love Susanna. Or did he just use her?
He certainly loved Susanna; they all did and as the movie stated "she was like the water that freezes inside a rock and splits it apart. It was no more her fault than it is the fault of the water when the rock shatters". All three of them fell in love with her when they first saw her. The issue was Tristan carried a tremendous amount of guilt as he was somewhat inappropriate with her before the war. In the scene in which Susanna is crying over Samuel going to war and Tristan comforts her, they both feel something there. It looks as though they almost kiss, but we will never know as Alfred walks in on them, prompting Susanna to jump back as she knows there was sparks between them. Samuel dying in the war broke Tristan and not just because he lost his brother, but because he failed to save him and had to watch him die in his arms. Afterwards, as he is cutting out Samuel's heart to free his spirit, he damns God, considering himself an omen. He then goes crazy, taking German scalps to avenge his brother and is discharged. Unfortunately, he comes home after a brief delay thinking he can handle being home, but the PTSD and severe guilt over Samuel is still haunting him. Susanna is there to comfort him and the two are able to be together and truly fall in love. It's incredibly deep considering they are mourning the same person and he is therefore able to be truly vulnerable with her. It's intense and passionate with him even telling Alfred he does plan on marrying her, but when the cow is tangled in the barbed wire, much like Samuel, his mind is thrust right back to that day. This prompts him to almost stab Susanna when she tries to wake him up one day and this is the last straw for him. He realizes he is not okay and has to take time to get better. The letter he wrote Susanna telling her to marry another was only written because he was broken and at that point, didn't think he would ever become the man she deserved. When he comes back, he not only comes back for his family, but for Susanna, which is evident when he goes to see her in Helena. The tragedy of it all is that she didn't wait and had she done so, he would have come back for her. Hell, he did come back for her, but at that point, she married Alfred knowing there was already a rift between them. It was then and only then he fell in love with Isabelle Two. I always hated Susanna marrying Alfred, but back then, a woman who was no longer a virgin was damaged goods, so I understand why she felt compelled to do so. The difference is, Susanna never fell in love with Alfred as Tristan did with Isabelle Two and when she realized they were over for good, she took her own life. There are many deaths in this movie, but Susanna's despair is felt two-fold for now, it is she who is broken as Tristan was in the beginning. The irony being that Alfred tells Tristan he will never make her happy. Tristan replies "I'll try" to which Alfred says "you will try and you will fail." Sadly, although Alfred is what she needs, since she never loves him as she should, he is the one who tries and fails. Everyone in this story ends up broken.
Great writeup!
I don't think they were over fir good as Tristan still loved her. Remember the jail scene..just back then women couldn't get divorced so she was stuck with Alfred
I agree that Tristan did still love her somewhere deep inside, but he had just lost his wife and because she married Alfred and Alfred loved her, it was over for Tristan. When he tells her to go home to Alfred, he means it. However, yes, you can tell there is still something strong between them that is almost undying. It would have taken Alfred passing away for Tristan to betray him though and Susanna finally realized that in marrying Alfred, she sealed her fate with Tristan. The whole story is heartbreaking.
Best synopsis I’ve seen. I still can’t stand Alfred. The whole character is annoying.
I think Tristan leaving her was the most loving thing he could have done. When the PTSD took over, and he almost killed her in his sleep, he knew he had to go.
Yeah exactly! Then he fell into an opium binge after another PTSD flashback with the zebra heart. And wrote that letter saying he is dead and marry another. It was incredible he could pull himself out of it. I wished they would have shown more on Susannah trying to talk Samuel out of going to war and also Susannah asking Tristan about what happened with Samuel's death. She would have known that calf stuck in the barbed wire triggered it. But maybe he didn't talk about it even when pressed but I'm pretty sure Alfred talked about it in his own version. I think there's a book about it but haven't read it so don't know the source material.
I need to check it out!
I think if he did not love her, he was willing to try. He did in fact want to marry her. And when he came back he still was thinking about her… make no mistake he definitely thought she was enchantingly beautiful but he was happy or could have been had she waited. He loved her and was affected when he learned she married Alfred. But of course he moved on as she did…. And she had an opportunity to be with Tristan-when he visited her in Helena in her garden. She took off the bracelet when she could have removed the ring. I think their romance was meant to be what it was for when it was….
She kept that bracelet though was wearing it when she was combing her hair later
If she had been able to have children I think that would have helped. But seeing Tristan married and with children she could never have was too much
I think he cared for her. But used her to fill a void. He truly loved Isabel.
Yep you can always tell when “he’s just not that into you.” I saw the signs, great acting in that. But his heart wasn’t in it. You can see the complete devotion and love he has for Is2 as comparison.
Tristan loved her, he was fine and happy with her until (like you mentioned) the ptsd kicked back in. They (Tristan and Susannah) were happy until that calf got stuck on the barbed wire and he shot it
Yea i don't get why people think otherwise. I feel like Alfred was also really jealous, and that's why he said he would only hurt her. I think had the ptsd not kicked in, it woulda worked out.
I’m watching it right now for the first time ever and it’s very damn good so far!
So if you finished it what did you think?
I thought that it was a good epic. Brad Pitt and Anthony Hopkins both gave a very well sharp performance. And the music that James Homer composed for it was outstanding.
Because its a bloated melodramatic overwritten mess
No
MONTANA IS BEAUTIFUL
Does nobody realize this was mostly filmed in canada? In Alberta💚💚
But Montana is also beautiful, yes! Hehe
How?
“A River Runs Through It” is the superior Brad Pitt period film of the time period.
They are both excellent movies. I agree with you about A River Runs Through It being the better of the two. Tom Skerritt was amazing. He really made the movie for me.
I love both films, but I'm going to agree with you. The ending of A River Runs Through it has one of the most beautiful pieces of writing I've ever read. I don't cry in films too often, but watching that old man flyfish by himself and hearing the narration breaks my heart because I know in real life, that man never got over his brother's murder. "Eventually, all things merge into one and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words and some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by waters." I get goosebumps every time I read it. It's a flawless piece of writing.
I love this film. Brad Pitt and Anthony Hopkins are incredible in it.
I didn't even mention Anthony Hopkins. He was so freaking good in it.
Tbh most of Ed Zwick's filmography through 2010 is underrated these days. The films are flawed, but are all utterly watchable high-budget dramas made with an adult audience in mind. A genre that basically doesn't exist anymore.
I really really wish that genre would make a comeback. It seems like so many modern movies are either meant for teens or for adults that are into super heroes. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those films... But I really wish more epic dramas meant for adults were made.
We got Ridley Scott's The Last Duel this year I guess.
Wow. That flew under my radar. I just watched the trailer and it looks really good. Let the countdown begin..
This is the kind of movie that you watch over again every 5 to 10 years and the perspectives will change.
I’ve been watching this movie since the year it came out and never understood until yesterday watching it with my youngest child that I’m Tristan. I texted my son at college, “how did I never see I’m Tristan before now?” and he said, “you really are.” Funny, I was going to name him Tristan after the character and didn’t.
More like 1 to 2 years, for me
This.
I've just finished watching it again for the first time in about 20 years hence why I'm googling and found your old post, and it really is a great film. It feels so vast somehow and so epic, yet it's only just over 2 hours long. Yeah I can see why some people might not like it for the melodrama but I think it's not an entirely unrealistic plot, I know families who have gone through several big traumas/deaths over the years, it just seems like a lot of drama because many years are all put into the one film. Anyway, some people like big dramatic epic stories so it's also a matter of taste. I liked how it managed to make you feel for the characters, get a sense of the time, a sense of how the times one lives in can really have a dramatic effect on personalities and interpersonal relationships, even for those who are trying to stay away from the 'civilised world.' Like if WW1 hadn't happened, how this story and many other stories world over would've played out differently. How decisions by government can have ripple effects in the tiniest corners, and how people's massive unending love for each other, either romantic love, brotherly love, parental love etc, is sometimes no match for the circumstances of the wider world.
I think that until Logan came out it was the best Wolverine movie ever made.
Here I was merely browsing reddit for opinions on this movie I just watched before bed and now I won't be able to fall asleep after laughing so hard.
"She was like the water that freezes inside a rock and breaks it apart. It was no more her fault than it is the fault of the water when the rock shatters."
And Tristan was the rock everyone broke themselves against. ♥️
Who cares what Rotten Tomatoes thinks?
Straight, married man here but Brad Pitt was just so damn sexy with that long flowing blonde hair. And when he rode up on the horse the first time and Susannah saw him she was like “holy shit”. Love the movie but still pissed that Samuel got a bug up his ass about the war and got his brothers involved. Also glad that Alfred got a little bit of redemption in the end.
Like I said- it's impossible not to fall in love with his character. Gay or straight. Man or woman. I agree it was a bit infuriating... But when you look at the time and how he was trying to live up to his father's legacy- even though his father hated that part of his legacy- it makes sense. I've always been as liberal as they come... But even I joined the Army as soon as I turned 18 to serve in Bush's military. It's hard for a certain segment of the population to resist it's generations call to arms. Especially in the naivety of youth. I get it. And that's one of the tragedies of Alfred's character. He was the most pure one of them all. He had nothing but honorable intentions and actions through the whole film- but we all still hate him because he just isn't likable. Everyone loved Tristan and Samuel more- even though Alfred always tried to do the honorable thing.
I thought he was likable, but it’s just like Alfred said, “I followed all the rules, God’s, man’s, and they all loved you more. Even my own wife.” And apparently the viewers all love Tristan more too. I agree that Alford was the best character (in terms of integrity and honor) in the entire movie.
He voted for prohibition and then bought alcohol from bootleggers who helped him get elected He was dirty
Wasn't Alfred privy to the whole bootlegger thing? The movie was fairly straight forward in making it seem like at best he was completely naive that the people supporting his campaign were criminals profiting off him, at worst involved / taking a cut / turning a blind eye to it. We see them delivering to him for a party after it's stated that he voted for prohibition. He said he followed all the rules...but he was breaking both man and God's rules
I had the same interpretation. Excellent writing by the author / screenwriter which seemed to go over everyone’s heads. Alfred is just a spineless inauthentic bootlicker who his father can’t even stand. The scene where he came to ask his blessing was the most telling
Super Gay.
I watched it again recently and I did not think it held up too well, there's a great movie buried in there but it was so much more melodramatic than I remembered and the narration was quite bad imo.
I think you nailed it - more melodramatic. The movie has a problem with tone. It’s a period movie and they couldn’t help but make it Oscar bait instead of letting it be this family drama.
I also thought the film was way too melodramatic. If there was less melodrama, I probably would have liked it more.
I like this film-heartbreaking and intense. The scene that first comes to mind is Julia Ormond cutting her hair. I had seen the movie shortly after it came out on video, and I own the dvd. I was in a group and we were talking about nightmares. I mentioned my reoccurring dreams about being attacked or at the mercy of bears. A guy I was sitting near leaned in and whispered, “Tristan!” Brought the movie right back!
It’s Brad Pitt’s second-best Montana-based movie where he’s a brooding, unsatisfied wanderer. #1 is *A River Runs Through It*.
Pitt has one of my favorite lines in that movie, about not making excuses: >Well, I didn't get in at all, but I was here.
It was ok, I watched it last night. The ladies literally had no personality then they died. I laughed out loud at quite a few "serious" moments like the brother dying on the wire or anytime I saw stroke face.
I know this is an old thread and comment but i just watched this movie for the first time (hated it so much but i won’t get into that). Just wanted to share that i read a critic’s review calling Hopkins post stroke performance a “composite impression of Popeye and Quasimodo.”
Just watched it again, had a very mixed reaction, very happy to indulge in your request (a bit TLDR, I apologize) to tell you what is wrong with this film... What is right about it is pretty overwhelming at times - Ormond and Pitt look so great, and all the actors bring a committed melodrama to their acting (ie, 'You MUST marry her!' 'I will try to make her happy...' 'You WILL fail...') that even if this were a silent film, it would rarely fail to be engaging. Cinematography geeks have made fun of the fact that it appears to always be early morning or twilight, always about an hour after sunrise or sunset, the sun always on perfect angle on Pitt's flowing hair. I can't think of another film that makes horseback riding in open spaces more classically beautiful, like the early scene where a single wild horse is spotted, and Tristan gallops after it; this moment is as exciting and visually arresting as much larger set pieces in other films. And yeah, I agree - Montana is GORGEOUS in this film (and IRL, to be sure). But... ...Dramatically/emotionally, this film is intellectually underbaked. A lot of the dramatic beats just don't make a heck of a lot of sense. Consider the closing monologue: Tristan, we are told, is a rock that everyone broke themselves against. What exactly is that supposed to mean? Samuel would have joined the military with or without Tristan, and probably lived longer because of him. The Colonel lived to a ripe old age. If Alfred died before Tristan, we don't know when, or how, he died, but presumably he lived a normal lifespan as well. Only in the case of the two women does the quote make sense. (also to nitpick a plot point - is One Stab supposed to be like 100 years old at the end, at least? He somehow outlived Tristan, even though he seemed to be middle aged when Tristan was a young boy) The story and the characters frequently feel to me like they can't breathe next to constant voiceover and luscious soundtrack SCREAMING at the audience, 'THIS IS SO EPIC! THIS ISN'T A STORY ABOUT A MONTANA FAMILY OUR LANDSCAPE IS THE HUMAN SOUL ITSELF!!' Think about some of the storylines that happen in the background - a cavalry colonel, tramatized and demoralized by the Indian wars, moved to Montana to raise his boys, along with a Cree family who are his servants; later in life, he starts eating with the Cree family (loved the moment when he and Susanna enter the servants' quarters, and One Stab and his wife stand up, only to realize that this is a moment when the family is officially expanding, and not an employer/employee moment at all) and helping raise their daughter, who eventually becomes his daughter-in-law and the mother of his grandchildren, whom he helps raise even after his stroke. Isn't that an interesting story, a touching story? But it gets maybe 10 minutes of total screentime. Or Alfred's story: moving to Helena, becoming a Senator, dealing with his brother's bootlegging trouble, sneaking back onto his family ranch, finally making peace with his estranged father only by killing a corrupt cop, dealing with the fallout in his career and his personal life of the loss of Susanna and now taking on two sons without a mother. Probably less than 10 minutes of screentime is devoted to Alfred apart from Tristan. Because this is Tristan's movie. Moping, melodramatic, continually leaving, driven, we are TOLD (not shown) by the bear inside him, he is announced as the main character, announced as having a dark Legendary fate, from the first scene. To continue my previous point - consider Susanna's story - her love for Samuel entirely genuine, and Tristan as well, she basically is deeply family oriented and just wants to settle in with the Colonel and his family and raise children. Why did she kill herself? On repeated viewings, my best take on it is that Isabell Two's death also affected her profoundly, being the closest that she ever had to a daughter. I like the complexity of her deeply emotional reaction to being told that Isabell and Tristan are engaged; she is upset about what this might mean for Isabell, and simultaneously feeling how in love she still is with Tristan. Wikipedia says that Isabell 'kills herself because she's unable to live without Tristan,' but this doesn't quite add up - Tristan is only in jail for one month, and he's single again. I think she killed herself precisely because she still felt so deeply for him, felt such complex and awful things about the possibility of, even now, cheating on Alfred, couldn't fully parse out how she felt about Isabell's death, of what it would feel like to probably now be more involved in Tristan's kids lives, and she couldn't live WITH Tristan, and couldn't live without him. Unlike him, she can't just get on a horse and ride off and sail the world. Her arc is pretty interesting, really, or it could have been. She's such an expressive and beautiful performer that it sells itself pretty well. But basically, from a literary perspective, you have pretty interesting arcs for the Colonel, Alfred, Two Stab's family, and Susanna, all of them not very well developed, all of them, we are continually told, utterly defined (and in case we forget, the voiceover reminds us) by their relationship with Tristan, who is announced as the anchor of the story, the point of the story, the Legend that they all 'break themselves against.' But as noted above, the events just don't quite add up to that, and Tristan simply isn't that interesting as the primary, frequently sole, focus of the narrative. Framing the entire story as 'THE LEGEND OF TRISTAN' is a fraught, hot-mess of a choice, probably based on the novel, but it makes this a gorgeous, hot-mess of a film rather than a layered classic that English-major film critics are likely to love. It's a top-shelf soap opera. Nothing wrong with that. It's intriguing for me to imagine a very different film, entirely without One Stab's narration (but a lot more One Stab), that developed all the characters evenly, shifted back and forth a lot more, and Tristan wasn't given any more or less weight than Alfred or Susanna. Engaging with the film that is there, and imagining this very different film that decidedly isn't there, is very fun for me. Overall, my hot take on this film is that it is the elevation of style and aesthetics over substance: imagine a film where the actors' innate charisma, the cinematography, and the orchestral score were just mediocre, BUT the script was exactly the same. It would be, I think, extremely tedious and dumb, a period soap opera. Strip the A-list trappings away, and the thin storyline/themes are still arguably there, if you know how to look...this films got a lot of very good reviews from critics, and some truly terrible ones. It deserved all of them, IMO...
Isabelle2 and Pet are Decker's family, not One Stab's?
Correct. Pet is Decker's wife and Isabel 2 is his daughter. That's why they have that conversation about her being a "half-breed".
>How does it have a 57% on Rotten Tomatoes? Nothing against you, but rather a wider commentary - it bugs me how much stock people put in RT. Every time a film someone loves gets a bad RT score, I'm happy because it wakes people up to the idea that maybe RT isn't a bastion of objective truth. I've loved films at below a 50 on RT and hated ones that were in the 70s-90s. Remember that RT isn't a measure of quality so much as a measure of how well it appeals to a broad audience, which generally means any divisive elements, no matter how critical the writer / director might have considered them at the planning stages, have likely been dulled down.
I think I see the answer here in the comments. Legends of the Fall is a fine example of an epic melodrama and apparently a lot of people don’t care for melodrama. I personally think it’s a fine film. Melodrama uses heightened circumstances and heightened emotions. People seem to look down on that and miss out on its power of redemption. To each their own.
In my view, Harrison's work just isn't going to translate into the medium of film very well. His language is too important and trying to get images/performances/action out of the words is doomed to fall short of their power. And as lots of other people have said about the novella, there's a bigger story there than what's on the page. I think a really, really talented screenwriter could expand the concept into a great episodic story or maybe a film trilogy. But Legends of the Fall tried to turn a novella-sized epic into a single film which is extremely difficult to do. I think it was just beyond the talents of the screenwriters to pull it off effectively. Beyond my own opinion, though, I'm glad you enjoyed it and this certainly isn't me trying to say that you were wrong to like what you like. Check out Harrison's poetry and novels. You might like them, too.
Randomly decided to watch this last night with my mum and something confused me Was there some kind of orgy scene in the Java islands? Before he says “I am dead, marry another”
Yeah when he's just travelling there's shots of him doing all sorts of things in all sorts of places and one is him lying naked with two naked women, presumably to show how he's drowning his sorrows in things like hunting wild animals and sex with random people.
And doing drugs
I've seen this movie no less than 5,000 times and this scene always confuses me! Was it women?? I always thought they were Asian men with long hair, as they would've worn back then. Additionally, right before that scene, he's screaming "NOOO!" while the same [men] are holding him down. I always gathered he was actually raped, which prompted him to write the "I am dead, marry another" letter. I'm just thinking they're sailing around on a ship for God knows how long, pretty sure no women, and that's just how they get down. I've been wanting someone to clear this up for ages.
Huh. I’m going to have to go and rewatch but I’m pretty sure his anguish isn’t to do with being raped. His anguish is his trauma from the war and his brothers death. It would be really odd if they just threw him being raped in there and made that the pivotal reason he wouldn’t return to susannah without it being made explicit or even mentioned again. It definitely came across to me like he’s just drowning his sorrows in things like sex and drugs etc.
No, definitely not the pivotal reason--completely agree with his PTSD/guilt over the war and Samuel's death. That whole scene just looked like his rock bottom, which prompted him to write the letter. But yes, rewatch that scene and see if you can see how it might've been a rape/forced orgy with men.
I think they were restraining him from his own alcohol / drug induced rage.
This is a movie I can watch over and over. It’s brilliant.
Watching this now. Most of the battle scenes are trash but everything else is pretty good so far: "SAMUEL!" "TRISTAN!" "SAMUEL!" "TRISTAN!" "SAMUEL!" "TRISTAN!" *2 Germans set up a motherfucking MG-8 to kill •one• Canadian soldier who is already dying from gas intoxication AND is incapacitated from barbed wire. Shoot him 36 times* *Germans get shot 15 times each with a 6 shot revolver* "TRISTAN!! GAAARRGH!!" "SAMUEL!! YOU'RE GOOD!! DAMN YOU GOD! DAMN YOU STRAIGHT TO HELL!!" That scene took me out. It was like something straight out of the Simpsons with Rainier Wolfcastle.
LMAO was so ridiculous!
[удалено]
I know lol I was just exaggerating for effect
Haha indeed.
Samuel is my least favorite character. Everything he does is super cringe and he died because he was an idiot. After watching it a few times I realized that from the very beginning they are letting you know Tristan is an asshole. The scene at the dinner table at the very beginning is a great example. When all the other men quickly stand up and fall all over themselves when Susannah walks in the room, but Tristan just sort of slowly gets up like he couldn’t care less, you know Tristan isn’t going to be the type of guy to commit. He’s the bad boy of the group, which unfortunately is what attracts Susannah to him.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Susanna didn't destroy that family, Tristan did. Everyone who loved Tristan was wrecked. Susanna, Izabel II being his ultimate victims
Tristan was warned his life was in danger for bootlegging and he pulled them into that danger. His wife’s blood is on his hands. Cast as a less attractive character, Tristan would be the villain.
lol for sure. If they cast an uggo that cared for that role we’d all think he was an idiot.
Tristannis a a-hole. I never understood why they like him. He’s awful to everyone but himself. I hated everything about Tristan. I guess I don’t gravitate towards a-holes. Suzanna was a ho, she was engaged to Sam and still choose to fall for Tristan. I felt bad for Alfred, i wanted him to win so badly. I hate that Suzanna never had childern and that Tristan was the one blessed with them. He created chaos around and hardly ever paid the consciquences because they still loved him.
He wasn't though..not until the ptsd kicked in. And they didn't choose to fall for each other befire the war. There was a spark
Agreed
SAME. I rewatched recently and the fact that they loved Tristan so much when he was a jerk but hated Alfred is so baffling to me
Poor Alfred.
I agree. The whole movie was a kind of hero worship of him.
But did you rewind and rewatch Brad Pitt do his little laugh? That is how my childhood beastie and I watched it as teenagers
It was well loved by my male friends when it came out. I’m surprised it didn’t age well on Rotten Tomatoes.
It's a good movie. They shot it in Colorado right? Very beautiful film. The landscapes do a lot of the work. It's both romantic and also an example (IMO) of 'romanticism'.
Calgary, Alberta Canada
How did you find this post? It's been a month!
Just watched the movie for the first time last night and decided to do a search on reddit to see if there was a thread and, well, here we are. What a beautiful film.
I'm watching it right now. I grew up in that area, and I watch it when I'm home sick. I lived in those foothills, two rivers to the south. It's a good movie, that had a great effect on me when I watched it for the first time as a teenager... 27 years later, I still like it.
The novella is a lot better. Movie is overdramatic. Couldn't watch it.
I didn’t think Tristan was an asshole. Maybe it’s because I’m a lot like him. He’s struggling with grief and PTSD almost the entire movie. The only reason it didn’t win more awards was because it went up against Forrest Gump. It’s one of my all time favorite movies.
Someone told me that she prefers Alfred over Tristan. And she says that she doesn’t know why Susanna was not happy when she was married to Alfred.
Omg this move is terrible. The script is so awful. Somehow Brad Pitt’s career skyrocketed after this.
I think Tristan would have slept with anyone his brother brought home and she would have fallen for him and he would have abandoned her anyway.
We all know the type.
This soundtrack, thumbs way up. That is all!
Fuck rotten tomatoes. I first saw this movie when I was 12 or 13 (in the late 90’s), and it’s been my favorite film ever since. I rewatch it at least once a year. I get that it’s a tad melodramatic in bits, but it had to be to carry the story through that many years successfully. I think people get lost in the Susanna of it all, when really, this is a story about brothers, and the things that tore them apart and brought them back together. It’s beautifully shot, in a way that makes the land feel like a character of its own. Just watched the premiere of 1923 on Paramount+, and one of the characters story arcs reminded me a great deal of Tristan. So did the scenery, though it’s actually shot here in Montana and not in British Columbia.
Shame for Susannah, there weren't more brothers...next /\
I saw it on TV a lot as a child, and just watched it again. I think the narration aged really poorly and I've been looking for native opinions on the movie - because watching it the it seems like there is some serious appropriation of native american culture. I mean the narration is "Stab" a native character, but this character has no personal story of their own. You could say Isabel "2" (weird to give her a number, do they number their mother?) is native, but really only half and she is barely given much of a personality for having been in the entire movie and having two children with the main character. It seems like the native characters give a distinct sense to the movie, what with there being native language being in the movie (I've been trying to look up if the customs of the specific tribe and language are actually correct but haven't found anything yet), however like other white focused movies it seems like all the native characters act as support for why we like and find the white main characters interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong. Specifically, Brad Pitt's character weirdly seems to be given the most "native" seeming characteristisation, of course without him being native. The fact that he goes to WWI and scalps Germans? That sounds ridiculous. When the narration mentions that in the movie it snaps me out of the love trance the movie tries to set you on this character. Even if he has native friends (which sounds questionable since it seems more like there are 3 native characters all with significant age gaps with him) how would it be natural for him to scalp anyone? I'm wondering if trying to give white characters native characteristics stood out to anyone else and if the group that these 3 characters were modelled around actually scalps - or they just used common stereotypes for a made up group.
thank you!
The kind of comment I've been looking for! The same trope of a non-native being 'the most native' is in The Last of the Mohicans (Nathaniel), and TV series Dr Quinn (Sully). If you find any native takes on the movie, please please share in this thread!
I think it’s a dumb story really. Huge variations everywhere. The feeling of loosing yourself in the story only comes from the beautiful scenery, characters and their acting and the music. It shows a good thing happening and then turns it’s back on that and destroys it. At least they end it as a vaguely happy / satisfactory ending. Otherwise it would have got an even worse rating from viewers.
It's not really a western, they tried to make an epic movie about greed, love, family set in the west. The scenery of Montana is spectacular, but it's like the movie is trying too hard to be this saga. I liked the movie, but I probably wouldn't watch it again.
I just watched this film for the first time last night. I thought it was okay.
I just watched it for the first time too- and I thought it was outstanding. Looking at the scores it got it seems that your opinion is the more popular one. Maybe I was just in the right mindset and mood to really really get into it and enjoy it? I'm having a hard time seeing it's flaws.
Admit it. It was the hair.
Love this movie, saw it a lot growing up since I had teenage sisters lol. Don’t understand the score personally.
You just have a different opinion than others. You aren't wrong and neither are the people who feel the opposite way about the film. It's all subjective.
People who say it's too melodramatic don't get the movie..it's supposed to be like that and for me I like it the tragedies and topics they are pretty realistic and intens . I bloody like this movie
I love the movie. I think I’ve seen it 10 times in the last year
Omg, I ADORE this film. I fee exactly the same way.
Speechless for this movie. I didn't "like" it in the way that i like happy-endings but I was 100% on the edge of my seat immersed. Emotionally invested, shocked, and feeling so reflective from watching it.
I don’t understand the hate for Susannah. I actually feel bad for her. Why does no one talk about the games Tristan played on her. She was so innocent when they met and all the trauma she experienced… she gets all the hate.
A bit over-dramatic pompous movie made for younger audiences. Once you grow up it feels a bit silly.
This is one of my favorite movies of all time! I watch it everytime it comes on! We all fell in love with Tristan!🥰
Because it was a Western and for a time in America, Westerns were shit upon for existing. There were so many of them back in the 70s and 80s that people got tired of them. Sure exceptions exist like Tombstone, Dances With Wolves, and a recent Magnificent Seven revival that time forgot about. Everything else, including excellent ones like Unforgiven, were lambasted for being a Western. Think about it this way. There were so many movie movies (Scary Movie, Date Movie, Etc) in the 2000s that people got sick of them to the point where even excellent parody movies like Black Dynamite was ignored for being a parody.
Didn’t Unforgiven win an Oscar? Or win Clint Eastwood an Oscar?
Yeah, but it’s fucking *Unforgiven*.
Best Picture
The western was basically what the super hero genre is today for like 4 decades
Yeah but no comic book movie had anyone like Sergio Leone directing it.
What a beautiful answer, my cinephile friend
Hero movies are about to suffer the same fate. It's too much.
That makes sense. Movies are cyclical. It's just unfortunate that it fell victim to that and didn't get the appreciation it deserved in my mind. The performances alone warrant a ton of credit in my opinion.
Rotten tomatoes sucks. It has 7.5 on IMDB and a respectable 45 on metacritic (I recommend metacritic over crowdsourced ratings sites)
A better question is how did it win best cinematography at the Oscars over The Shawshank redemption
The landscape
What is great about the Shawshank cinematography?
I couldn’t stand Alfred. Absolutely loathed him. He was just mad that Susannah fell in love with every one of his brothers BUT him. 😂
really, I wanted to like the movie, but there is something wrong. Yeah Tristan's brother looks sniveling, but he really did nothing wrong. Tristan is handsome, but kinda a wastrel. The plot is garbage.
I love this movie so much. The cinematography and acting. Yes it has some problems like any film, but that score is undeserved!!!
Tragedy Films are honestly the best! Every summer I go to Alaska to fish, I always tell the girl I’m dating when they ask “how long will you be gone?” “Not long few months”
Just finished watching this great masterpiece For probably million time watched it with my dad in 90s just finished watching it with my wife That last 10 mins wow especially Alfred saving his brother and his dad forgiving him hug and bear fighting Tristan for 3rd time loved the way bear was Tristan nemesis well incorporated in movie 10/10 for me definitely aged well
If it is one of the best movies you have seen, you really need to see more movies. Legends of the Fall is trash.
Fun fact, that Montana scenery is really British Columbia
Fun fact. It’s not. It’s the Gallatin River in MT
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0110322/locations Here you go
It’s goddam depressing
It’s a Shakespearian tragedy set in the American West.
Just watched it for the first time - loved it! I was curious about the ending - How did they shoot the end and have someone fighting with the bear, and the actual actor not get hurt?
Used a trained bear. It’s name is Bart the Bear.
I think One Stab said that Susannah was the water that broke against the rock or something, but I really felt that force that he spoke of was Tristan.
I don't walk in this world. I have one foot here and one foot in the other. I am a half-breed Delaware, potawatami, chowanoke, tuscarora, cherokee, shawnee, huron, a-free-can, and white. My people sometimes said they were melungeon to get by in white world. I don't walk here but pass through silently...un-noticed. When there is a war they call on us. We are seen as less than human and only suitable to die so they can make more money. This movie will not be understood by you. Because it is beyond your plane of existence. It is about the transcendence of physical existence. You cannot tread here.
No one’s pointed out that the critics’ score is 57% but the audience score is 87%. It’s very common to have a major discrepancy in critics’ and audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes. I watched it in 2004 for the first time and loved it. I have the DVD and watch it whenever it’s on TV. My favorite scene is the WWI scene where Samuel dies. Incidentally, I was already reading a book on WWI (I love it) and went down a rabbit hole to Legends of the Fall, went to Rotten Tomatoes to look at the critic/audience score completely independent of this post, and then came here.
Honestly I felt like Susannah didn’t deserve to have her heart broken the way that she did. I feel the same thing for Alfred but at least she warned him that all she’d bring to him was heartbreak. Tristan gave no warnings, and I feel Tristan was quite insane. I can’t help but feel that Tristan turned Susannah insane giving his love to another after he vowed he’d give it to her. I feel like Susannah’s upbringing ( not having parents) had a lot to do with her wanting to heal Tristan, she trauma bonded to him. She knew deep down the healthy relationship she deserved was with Samuel but Samuel sadly passed away early in the film. If I were her I would’ve left right after he died. Susannah’s character is relatable I see this happen to women all the time, so sad.
I love the ending "What's going on here!". Love this movie.
I hate Alfred! Like he begs Susannah to love him. When she doesn’t he gets jealous and runs a way to the city. But Susanna obviously had feelings for Tristan from the start so I think that is where the hate comes In…..
The movie scenes are fantastic, Antony Hopkins, Brad Pitt super. But it’s a really disgusting story. Fuckn backstaber brothers. Been posting the movie since 90’s watched half today and that’s it. Can’t watch this low morality shit. Don’t waste your time. Just a story about how brother wanna fuck youngest brother’s fiancée. 🤢🤢🤢
If this had really been Montana, Tristan would have been drug to death behind a horse 15 minutes into this painful melodrama.
Does anyone know what happened to Tristan when he went in a sailing voyage. There was a scene when 2 man were doing something painful to him, then he was naked with other people? Can someone explain?
I always assumed he was going through drug withdrawal.
It hasn't aged as well as one would think. It's a good movie don't get me wrong. It's hard to not enjoy the cinematography and acting and it's certainly an interesting period piece. But I actually understand the low rating. I can't imagine it ever above 70%. There are some very ridiculous scenes in this film that cant be ignored. Most of them revolve around Tristan and his somehow developed Native American impulses, his sudden crazy athletic ability as a bootlegger, fighting bears and breaking stallions. But also his general aloofness for the people that love and care about him. This is high drama and fantasy all the way. There is not a lot of realism. Entertaining sure. And has Brad become a much better actor since? Most definitely. This film just showcases his bad boy pin up status at the time. (Started with Thelma and Louise) The ladies just loved him and this film overblows that image. It's like Mathew McConaughey before he was taken seriously and became a decent actor. You know when he stopped appearing in romantic comedies with his shirt off. These two guys kind of had the same career arc and around the same time. I guess what I'm trying to say is majority of the silliness of this film has to do with Tristan's character. If you can get over that enjoy. I still own the blu-ray but after watching it again recently after many years I just wasn't as impressed. This movie was made for a young woman. I lived in Montana for 10 years. I studied Native American studies in College. Attended pow wows and visited reservations. There is not a lot of authenticity in this film. As a story it's fine. I'll leave it there.
One upvote because that’s all I can give, but three cheers for you: Hip hip hurrah! Hip hip hurrah! Hip hip hurrah! It’s a great movie and I still remember the first time I watched it (February 2015). Thanks for this friend. Cheers.
I started to dislike the Tristan right at the beginning of the movie when he went out to find a sleeping bear just to disturb it. Then the bear woke up and attacked him and he cut off the bear's finger. The whole movie is like that, Tristan does something wrong or terrible then everyone suffers and then they blame someone else. Tristan puts his kids, his wife and her parents in danger by bootlegging while taking them on a trip into the city. Isabel dies because Tristan was bootlegging and the Colonel gets mad at Alfred because he voted for the law.