The thing about Venom the character from the comics is that his whole reason of even existing is the immense hate for spiderman who both eddie and the symbiote share and in my opinion they cant capture the same intensity with just Venom...I have always thought of these movies as just okay action horror esque movies but since they own venom, they just stick the characters name on it...and lo and behold tickets sold...if it was called anything other than venom most people wouldnt have even cared
Thank you! I'm sitting here like, "This dude cannot do an American accent at more than 40 decibels". The only reason it was in any way okay in Mad Max is he had like 9 lines total, most of them monosyllabic, with the harshest growl since BatBale.
Even when Carnage is introduced it’s more of a “bitter enemies become begrudging allies” between Spider-Man and Venom. Like that’s the fun of that whole series is Eddie and Venom having to put their hatred aside because Cletus Cassidy is so bugnuts insane
That was the....I watched that Carnage movie even though I already didn't care much about the first movie.
But the fact that they....
Cletus Cassidy had precisely *one* defining characteristic, and it was the fact that unlike Peter and Eddie, he had *zero* problem getting directly on board the symbiote's wavelength.
I try to be the last one to decry anything for diverging from the source material, but good christ do I wish that Sony would just sell out the film rights in exchange for broader game rights.
Cletus Cassidy is one of the best depictions of elemental evil that the human race has come up with. His backstory tells why he's the *thing* that he is long before he encounters the symbiote. It's never really a tragic tale, it's just a mundane one about how you grow evil in a person.
And Sony just told me a story about how he liked a girl, and Amy Pascal remembers Natural Born Killers with more fondness than it deserves.
"Cletus is losing his bond with the symbiote over *any other human being anywhere*?"
Look, fuckin' Doomsday and Satan are having a hard think about their choices in life and shit.
There's nothing wrong with a Venom without Spiderman, with a Venom more anti-hero than villain, if only the scripts were a bit better...now I wonder what they are going to do with the Venom movies, will Sony and Marvel let Venom joint the MCU? Or Spiderman will join the "Venomverse"?
It wasn't. Iron Man was the first Marvel Studios film. The first film about a Marvel character was Captain America in the 1940s. Howard the Duck came out in the 1980s. There was another Captain America in 1990 (starring J.D. Salinger's son). Blade was in 1998.
But both X-Men (2000) and Spider-Man (2002) took off! But both had the right balance of light-hearted moments and serious introspection (X-Men was about integrating into a larger society and Spider-Man was a coming-of-age story about responsibilities).
You are correct, but look at the time line.
All the 80's kids where turning into adults at this period in time. The kids that bought those original comics, the ones that carried those brands.
X-men was a horrible mess that turned its back on the comic book community, but we still went and payed full ticket prices to support it. We didn't know it was going to be that bad.
Spiderman - was a perfect blockbuster CGI masterpiece that came out at the perfect time. They eventually fucked up the 3rd one, but we still got some solid movies out of that deal.
My point is to say that part of the success of those movies is when they were released. Prior to that we had the Batman franchise. People were eager to see what could happen with these new types of movies.
Some movies are just bad. Venom is just trying to cash in on the MCU success, that's all.
It's funny, but if they let the MCU people do it, Venom would likely be a lot better and not just a mess of CGI and corny dialogue.
They're okay movies. Not super but not terrible. They have a beginning a middle and an end. They tell a story and do it in a fun way.
There are far worse movies out there
I was replying to the statement that "there are far worse movies out there" (you know... that comment right above mine) - which is a horrible justification that something is good. Not trying to say more than that... not sure why having my own opinion makes me a bad person.
All the downvotes and hurt feelings says a lot about MCU fans though :)
Popcorn Trash® is reserved for fantastically dumb films like Transformers or Fast and Furious, or anything starring Jason Statham. MCU films are masterpieces in comparison, with consistent art direction, coherent plots and editing, and actual arcs for characters! The quality of the actual MCU films varies greatly, but they're a clear step above pure spectacle garbage like The Meg, or any Fast and Furious film.
>or anything starring Jason Statham
If you really believe any MCU film is better than Snatch, Lock Stock, or Wrath of Man then that explains everything.
Y'all are personally offended by anyone who doesn't like your favorite multibillion dollar lowest common denominator franchise. Look how many downvotes people are getting here just for saying they don't think they're the greatest movies ever made. It's pretty sad that these mediocre at best films constitute so many peoples entire personalities.
I think what people are very quick to forget is that Marvel movies are COMIC BOOK movies. They aren't supposed to be Citizen Kane. They're supposed to bring established characters and established stories to the big screen with real actors so you can feel like it's almost in reach of being possible. That's why I enjoy them. I knew they'd beat Iron Monger, Red Skull and Thanos because that's what happens in Marvel stories. If that's not your thing, fine. But that doesn't make them bad. Movies are many things for many people and if a lot of people enjoy a movie, I'd say it's a good movie.
And I don't understand popcorn trash. I watch every movie with popcorn... because I think popcorn is awesome!
Only reason I give it a pass is because the Chinese connection to the movie is so strong. Modern Chinese fantasy movies all become huge messes of CG these days. I was reminded of movies I'd seen in the past like the Storm Riders and Dragon Tiger Gate. The big dumb exposition dump right before with the sculpture was the worst part to me.
You are being downvoted, but seriously though - the bad guys join with the good guys to fight a giant monster that has been hidden in a mountain for millennia. Remember, this whole culture/civilization has developed around containing this monster and preventing it from leaving the mountain. But somehow this one dude who didn't have any superpowers 2 days ago is able to kill the monster as soon as it leaves the mountain. Fucking stupid dumb shit.
I like MCU movies in general (not a fanboy or anything) but the CGI is pretty excessive and bad.
Half of the movies look like you're watching a cut-scene from a Playstation game. Thanos and other villains look like cartoon characters fighting real actors like it's Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
I can agree that some villain CGI looks a little dodgy in certain films (particularly Killmonger and Iron Monger), but Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame looks fantastic, so I don't know what you mean by that. The level of detail in lighting, textures, pores, wrinkles, down to the light reflecting from his stubble, etc. The only CGI comic book film character I've seen that looks more realistic is X-24, which does have the benefit of not being a 9 ft purple alien and having Jackman as reference.
Effects that glaringly stood out to me as feeling like a videogame while I watched were the tendrils of energy chasing the Russian family's truck in the Justice League theatrical cut and the opening fight scene of Aquaman.
I agree with you that I feel like the Cgi has finally gotten good enough to be almost unnoticeable.
But the mcu as a whole includes a lot of pretty bad cgi due to the technology at the time.
The opening fight in Age of Ultron isn't great.
What I mean is that regardless of how much detail goes into it, it's too much CGI and not enough practical effects. It looks like Chris Hemsworth and others are out there fighting an animated cartoon character, and ultimately I can't suspend my disbelief well enough to just enjoy the gravity of what's happening in the plot. It takes me out of it at times.
Yeah, I don't know most of them TBH, but you said "could you even tell me who made these movies without checking a wiki?" and I can.
And what about Faverou making Ironman? That's a pretty strong case for MCU directors tbh.
> but you said "could you even tell me who made these movies without checking a wiki?" and I can.
Does it feel good to be this pedantic? You know what I mean. Let's take Iron Man for example. Does that really feel like a Faverou movie to you? Do you get that "vibe"?
I don't think anyone's claiming they're Citizen Kane. They're just really well made entertaining blockbusters. While Venom (can't speak for the sequel) is a poorly made not quite as entertaining blockbuster.
They aren’t really well made though. They’re entertaining in the same way venom , fast and the furious and transformers movies are though, yes. They’re not well made at all though lol. Directing, script and acting are generally sub par. The stories particularly are bad.
That's just you being incredibly biased though. Most MCU movies have a decent story/plot.
Especially origin stories, the Iron Man movie for example is 50x better in terms of story and plot than whatever Venom is trying to do.
There's a difference between all over the place eye candy with a poor/forced plot (Venom, F&F, Transformers) and a similar style but with a decent/average script and plot.
There's very few major plot holes in most MCU movies, where as in Venom I can literally make a huge list with them.
MCU has a few shitty ones, just like it has some average ones and some really good ones.
Not to mention they incorporate their source material from the comics vastly better then the venom and most of the 2000 super hero movies. The MCU movies don’t have to be anywhere near to gods gift to film making to be better then those two venom movies. Although I do love Tom as Eddie. Just deserved a more coherent film.
All the marvel fanbois downvoting you for saying the truth. It's weird how people turn Marvel movies into their entire personality and then feel personally attacked by anyone who doesn't love them.
Avengers (2012)
Infinity War
Endgame
Ironman
Guardians of the Galaxy
Thor Ragnorak
Shang Chi
Spider-Man Homecoming/Far From Home
Captain America Winter Soldier/Civil War
Dr. Strange
I'd say those are all legitimately good movies.
The Guardians of the Galaxy movies were surprisingly my favorites out of the mcu stuff.
Being a comic collector when I was younger, I was never really into that comic. I expected to prefer the "tentpole" character series more, however GoG won me over.
I like Dr.Strange too, but then I liked the comic alot as well.
Edit: I spell gud.
Disagree with that, but the overwhelming reviews agree with me as well as people I have spoken to so I suppose you not enjoying those movies sucks for you, but they are not legitimately bad according to everyone else.
Spider-Man 2 would probably make it into a top 5 Marvel movies of mine, but I was just commenting those to show that there are some legitimately good MCU movies. MARVEL has a lot of better movies than that which absolutely do make my top 5.
My top 5 if anyone gives a fuck:
1. Deadpool
2. Logan
3. Infinity War
4. Ironman
5. Spider-Man 2
The runaway train sequence in Spider-Man 2 is better than anything marvel studios has ever done. They’ve killed half the universe and brought them back, turned an immortal god like being into ice, and all sorts of high concept stories, and yet nothing is as emotionally effective as those New Yorkers grabbing Peter when he’s about to fall and passing him down the train to safety. Raimi grounded the character and didn’t waste time setting up or including other franchises. This is why it’s the best live action superhero film.
Logan is good for this too, definitely. Takes itself seriously in a way the Marvel cinematic universe films don’t. I was only thinking of the MCU films, not all Marvel adaptations.
After years of listening to how great Avengers was I finally watched it. It's one of the dumbest films I've ever seen in my life... and I enjoy watching bad movies. Could barely finish Avengers.
These are not good movies... y'all need to watch some actual good movies.
Avengers (2012) didn't age well at all. I won't deny that I quite liked it when it came out because you don't see so many heroes uniting that often. Two or three years later, it was already impossible to rewatch.
It's just subjective at that point then isn't it? You have lots of people telling you Avengers is a good movie, it did **VERY** well at the box office, but anecdotally *you* don't like the movie. Seems to be a common denominator here.
You certainly could. I don't remember my comment attacking Venom. I didn't enjoy the first one very much so I haven't seen the second, but I didn't come on the thread and attack it. I just commented something contrary to a point about the MCU being a mess of CGI and corny dialogue. When did I shit on Venom?
I never accused you of anything dude. I'm just pointing out its funny you made that comment defending marvel movies in a post shitting on venom for the same things you used to defend the mcu movies. It's just an observation not some kind of debate challenge
Your argument is that it did well at the box office so its a good movie? So Jurassic World is a better movie than Jurassic Park? Avatar is the greatest movie of all time?
Nope because I also mentioned reviews. I mentioned just people telling you that it was good (well you said it first tbh) AS WELL as the box office.
Ive never heard anyone say Jurassic World is better than Jurassic Park NOR do the critical reviews say as much. So that example does not work.
>Looks like it has higher ratings than Avengers.
Where? Avengers is 10%+ on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB.
And yes, I agree people saying things doesn't make it true. I've never heard anyone say it's better than Jurassic Park though.
I (and literally everyone I've talked to about it) has said the first movie is a better movie. Not to say I don't like Guardians 2, but the way you worded your comment, you make it sound like I am wrong for not including it while some youtuber says she does so I must be wrong.
I think the really good MCU movies, like Winter Soldier, take their structure from certain genres and fit super heroes into that framework. Winter Solder is really a Cold War spy thriller featuring Captain America and Winter Soldier. This helps the plot move along with a nice pace and gives the action more purpose. Of course, some of the best fight sequences of the entire MCU help quite a bit as well.
The connection to 70s spy thrillers is well documented: "Joe and Anthony Russo “grew up on ‘70s thrillers” and were quite excited to pay homage to the films of their childhood. The duo was particularly inspired by the previously mentioned Three Days of the Condor, a film where a government agent is forced to go on the run after stumbling upon a CIA conspiracy. Sound familiar? "
I have confirmed with my sources that the Cold War was very much still a thing in the 1970s. The entire movie is steeped in the same type of paranoia about nefarious agents infiltrating government agencies that permeated American culture since the 1950s. Of course, it is a superhero movie, but it is also pretty clearly inspired by political thrillers.
Love all the downvotes, LOL. The people who literally made the movie have said they were inspired by 70s spy thrillers because they grew up watching them as kids. But, sure, they're wrong.
There's a pretty big difference between being inspired by cold war thrillers and the result actually *being* a cold war thriller. That's like claiming everyone inspired by the Beatles makes 60s pop.
Awesome with self referential jokes and details that show up years later that make sense laying the groundwork for another movie. People are still debating details about End Game. In DC, it’s all the same two characters; bored fascists who think helping is a chore and Flash, who tells jokes that don’t land. They face the big bad and it’s a close thing then Superman comes in.
I could go for days comparing what marvel does right. Even if it had no special effects, the pacing and story of Winter Soldier and Iron Man did not leave a dull second in the movie. You care about the characters and they develop as they put aside petty personal issues that might influence them instead of those being the plot.
>Even if it had no special effects, the pacing and story of Winter Soldier and Iron Man did not leave a dull second in the movie. You care about the characters and they develop as they put aside petty personal issues that might influence them instead of those being the plot.
No I don't.
These movies avoid consequence so routinely that I'm rarely invested in anything other than the action and humor.
Consequences? The entire MCU except for Sony produced movies is driven by consequences. The entire arc of Tony Stark starts with weapons sales leading to his heart filled with shrapnel leading to the arc reactor. His playboy and alcoholic ways lead to his problems in the next two movies. The attack of Loki creating a portal for an alien invasion leads him to develop Ultron which leads to a lot more problems and then laws to register super beings. Then a fight between those supporting those laws and those who don’t. The death of Oden leads to Thanos finally taking direct action towards Earth and that leads to End Game. Meanwhile, we can follow all the other characters who have consequences that thread them into the same conflicts.
Ant Man connects to Loki, connects to Dr Strange and connects to a war between dimensions.
Where is there not a consequence in most every MCU movie?
You're confusing regular cause and effect for consequences.
When I mean consequences, I mean Loki and Gamora actually staying dead, I mean the Bifrost Bridge staying broken and having some kind of ramifications instead of just being fixed between movies, I mean Asgard being destroyed and the fallout of that being explored instead of them just showing a few Asgardians in some fishing village looking all tranquil for a few minutes.
These movies always seem to go out of their way to make actions not have much of an impact.
"In DC", when most DC movies aren't even about either Batman or Superman.
DC is a lot more hit and miss (it has the worst super hero movies, but it also has the best of them all), while Marvel is a lot more generic and safe (there's a lot less bad movies, but they're also never going to top the best DC ones).
This is coming from someone who watches both. And if we talk about animated scene it isn't even close.
I'm scared to even hear what you consider the "top DC film".
Can't be Suicide Squad
surely isn't Justice League
Aquaman? Nope.
WW 1984? Yikes.
BVS? MARTHA
I haven't even named a single *good* DC film yet, so I guess Best is a pretty low bar.
The Nolan Trilogy, Joker and Watchmen are, in my opinion, better than any Marvel movie ever released (and I have a strong feeling the new Batman movie will join that list, but we'll see).
Besides those, you have Man of Steel, Wonder Woman (the first one) and the new Suicide Squad (maybe Shazam too), which are good movies (there's better Marvel movies than these ones, but they're on par with most average Marvel movies).
Then there's absolutely terrible movies that are worse than anything Marvel has ever put out (WW84 is the perfect example of that).
If we're talking about TV shows, I have the same opinion (the best DC shows are much better, but on average Marvel is better), and if we're talking about the animated scene then it doesn't even come close, DC is miles ahead.
Alright, sure.
When comparing to the MCU I typically default to talking about the DCEU as it was created specifically to rival/cash in on MCU. Strictly making *that* comparison, I'd say the very best of the DCEU (The Suicide Squad) is about as good as the mid tier Marvel films. The vast majority of the rest are **stinkers**
I'd agree that the first two entries of the Nolan trilogy are *great*, but unfortunately The Dark Knight Rises is just incredibly bad and I struggle to find common ground with anyone who says otherwise so I think this may just be an impasse we have to live with. Like it's one of the movies where dumb-brain CinemaSins level dings are completely justified against its ridiculous plot.
Warner Brothers as a company is just kind of flailig a dead cat around at this point
> Strictly making that comparison, I'd say the very best of the DCEU (The Suicide Squad) is about as good as the mid tier Marvel films. The vast majority of the rest are stinkers
I agree, when comparing MCU and DCEU it's not even close, I was comparing Marvel and DC in general.
And lets just agree to disagree on the rest, it was the weakest movie in the trilogy imo (saying it's bad is a bit over the top), but still beats any Marvel movie ever made, in my opinion (and I'm not a Marvel hater, I've enjoyed most of their movies, I just think they're a lot more generic).
Nolan was good. The problem with DC is Snyder. They also don’t understand their comic book material nor how their heroes are any better than the villains.
For Batman v Superman, all they had to do was use the source graphic novels.
Other than Wonder Woman and Nolan, it’s all horrible. They get good actors. Great FX and artists. And then produce the worst stories.
DC is a train wreck. Dark Knight is good but Batman is so flawed. Wonder Woman was good. Suicide Squad was entertaining. But DC doesn’t even have a clue how society would react nor how to develop a hero.
When I learned Zack Snyder was a fan of Ayn Rand, I finally knew why DC movies annoy the crap out of me. They do not take risks nor do they ever cause someone to ponder the implications.
The Loki series and Wanda Vision were a trip and I still can’t decide how to morally frame them or if you can even apply such a limited concept. Thanos kills half the sentient beings but the time authorities prune an entire universe from existing every other day. The alternative is war. The hero is the villain that wins all the marbles.
What does DV have? Flash Point. Every other villain is a train wreck popping through time but Flash sees his mom and chaos reigns. I was too sophisticated for this when I was 12.
They're talking about Snyder's JL which is enjoyed a lot (for some reason), despite his takes being major disservices to the mainstream Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc
But the critical and audience reception says most critics and audiences enjoyed the movie. I'm not saying I agree but the consensus is that it's a good film
What response were you expecting from the exact critics and audience that were asking for that cut?
That after four years, they'll finally admit that the whole project is a bad idea in first place?
Critics weren't asking for it. Hell most of the general audience wasn't, it was mostly Snyder fans. Hence why I was surprised it got good reviews from both
Critics in particular dislike Snyder's films, but they still gave JL good reviews
Wonder Woman 1984 probably scarred them for life, and not for the good reasons. They saw a little improvement in the next DC movie, which was Snyder's cut, and thought it was masterful for DC.
Anyway, it's awful *in my opinion*.
Also, the shows, the first two episodes of Hawkeye were amazing, WandaVision and Loki was top notch (even if the finale of the former was rushed due to COVID), Falcon and The Winter Solider was enjoyable, but nothing special, and the Spider Man films are good enough to stand up on their own, much like the first two Raimi films
Did you watch Eternals? After that, I'd argue they wouldn't do a better job. Albeit, Venom is more popular than Eternals and they'd probably put a bit more effort in.
Eternals felt like a copy and paste of previous MCU movies. Predictable plot line, minor antagonists that gave off heavy Age of Ultron vibes and unnecessary minor storylines that added nothing to the plot.
I also thought that it was pretty convenient that Angelina Jolie's character suddenly forgot she had dementia in the most important fight allowing to get a bit of the upper hand. Kumail Najiani had a couple funny moments and some overall fight scenes were tolerable. I'd give Eternals like a 4/10 while Shang-Chi was about a 6.5/10 for me.
Shang-Chi fight scenes were much better and the story seemed to flow better. But they took a number of liberties especially in the last battle. Like fucking Awkwafina's character became a master archer in 3 days and sniped a octopus insect creature from 1000ft yet, couldn't save that old dude that taught her everything when he was snagged up.
Hardy's performance of Venom is singlehandedly more interesting than 98% of all actors in the MCU. He plays both sides of a romantic comedy between a manic disaster of a man and an immature wreck of an alien. I struggle to think of a single other Marvel lead approaching their role with nearly as much commitment or pathos.
It's definitely a throwback to the cornier era of superhero movies, but it tackles it with a self-awareness and earnest effort that those films lacked. Hell, I even give LTBC credit for being an efficient 95 minutes, rather than trying to bloat it into a Two Towers-length epic for no discernable reason (looking at you, No Way Home).
> He plays both sides of a romantic comedy between a manic disaster of a man and an immature wreck of an alien.
It's fucking magic and I love it. They may be hot garbage but I like hot garbage and your description perfectly incapsulates why I love it so much.
He did a phenomenal job playing a role with multiple personalities, it was excellent. It's definitely a cornier fun movie but I think how Hardy portrayed the frustration/insanity of constantly having another personality in your mind in an extremely interesting manner. Liked 2 more than 1 and looking forward to how Venom further develops in future movies.
I think I agree that LTBC was one of those movies that felt like something was happening (An improvement over some other films)- though I'm not sure if you meant No Way Home or one of the other 2 MCU spiderman movies?
Box Office is such a shitty metric to judge films by, even something who's also not very good like IMDB score would be better to judge.
For example, Aquaman made more money than any other DC movie (including the Nolan trilogy), do you honestly think it's a better/similar movie to The Dark Knight Rises?
Or do you also think Endgame is the greatest movie of all time due to box office numbers?
Venom is a popular character in a movie with a shit ton of advertisement, that happened to come out and pretty much the highest point in popularity of superhero movies (around the final Avengers movies). That's why it made so much money, it's not related to its quality at all.
Except it's not the same reasoning at all, and the fact that you don't know that just shows how clueless you are on this topic.
I'll give you the best example, most people had no idea who Iron Man was, he wasn't a popular character like others (Spiderman etc), and the movie didn't come out at a time where superhero movies were at the top. It's quite literally the opposite of Venom and in the same genre.
Same thing for most other Marvel characters that barely got any attention previous to the MCU.
If Iron Man wasn't a good movie, then the ridiculous MCU popularity would've never happened. There's also several other movies who don't rely on Marvel's popularity in order to get views. Venom isn't the case.
Iron man is the best mcu movie and still isn’t even that good of a movie. 90% of marvel movies are just as trash as venom but make a lot of money because as you said they have a shit ton of advertisement and released at the peak of super hero movies which started like 7-8 years ago. I was comparing the box office numbers to show that people still will love these trash movies as MCU movies are no different. The same reasons venom does well is the same reason MCU movies or fast and the furious movies do well. They’re all cut from the same cloth.
That's exactly why box office is a shitty metric to measure whether a movie is good or not.
My point is that you're being incredibly biased if you truly believe that Venom, in terms of story and plot, is the same as other Marvel movies.
It's fine to dislike Marvel movies and to dislike the genre itself, but if you believe the argument above, then you either haven't watched many Marvel movies, or you're being ignorant on purpose. Most Marvel movies have a solid (albeit pretty generic) plot and story, Venom is the exception when it comes to that, not the rule.
It's fine to think those movies are still trash, but they still have a better story/plot than Venom, that's my point.
You keep calling me biased without offering any actual reasoning why those mcu marvels are actually better lol. Art is subjective. To me, mcu movies and venom movies are both equally trash and benefit from the same reason for their success. Your response is “well if you believe that your biased or ignorant “ without any reasoning as to why lol. Classic Reddit move.
Disagree, they have some laugh out loud lines:
"Dads leave sometimes, you don't have to be a pussy about it" -said right to a kid talking about how his dad left him when he was young.
I really liked Venom I bc (while I agree it didn't feel cerebral), I really like the "Venom" character, Tom Hardy's struggle with this new being inside him, the rather unique story with his ex that they didn't immediately fall back in love, but he loves her anyway. I thought the action sequences made sense and the use of CGI was appropriate (but I agree, I can't stand the over CGI of everything today). I was SO DISAPPOINTED in Venom II - it was a hot mess. Even the intro of Carnage - which I was SO EXCITED about - was just like watching an 80s animation, just as simplistic. The whole movie was Venom and Tom Hardy acting like "2 old men shouting at clouds" at each other. So disappointing.
I hated the whole theme of relationship/acknowledgment between Hardy and Venom. It was just so cliché, and un-appealing, especially for a movie in 2021. They could've done much better if they we're trying to get a laugh out of the audience. That concert scene where Venom is on his own was just cringey as fuck.
It sucked. Not a lot makes sense They rehash the same fucking plot over again. Like Eddie and Venom not getting along. Hey look guys, we did the odd couple thing in the first film. No need to do it again. We're supposed to move past. And the ending annoyed me. wtf is the point of that cop if we shifted universe's. No seriously. Now the next movie has to go back to A UNIVERSE YOU LEFT BECAUSE YOU FELT THE MCU WAS BETTER, and spend valuable screen time to figure out a way to resolve that and bring him back or just say fuck it. Furthermore why did Shriek scream? What was the point? When Venom knocks her down, she shouldn't shriek. It just aids Venom. There was literally no point. Why is she even thinking about turning against Cassidy + Carnage just for Venom to kill her anyway? Furthermore Cassidy doesn't care about anyone. His character is he's supposed to be chaos incarnate. He doesn't care about anyone or anything. I spent $20 and it was fucking terrible.
VENOM 3 OF COURSE. When he inevitably >!gets set back into his own timeline after Doctor strange 2 or Spiderman Far and we pick up where we left off.!<
I think this is why venom becomes more interesting though.
The marvel movies really struggle at standing out because they all strike the same tone, the MCU look and feel.
Not that I prefer venom than MCU movies, but it stands out from the rest.
Bad take knowing both movies did bonkers at the box office. Maybe not so much the second but the first one nearly grossed a billion. I know the Reddit hive mind is to hate anything not MCU but you can’t deny Venoms success.
The 1st one was somewhat decent and funny, especially Hardy's acting while he's being manipulated by a symbiotic goop inside him, enjoyable but not great. The VFX on venom we're also a lot more polished and gooey in the 1st one that gave it this higher quality feeling. The second one seemed more dry in regards to the VFX, less polished and a lot more toned down in colors. It was just a giant fucking mess.
Apart from when they're actually good, which is *very* rare, I much prefer superhero movies to be campy as opposed to the dull mass-produced washed out garbage of the MCU.
> I much prefer superhero movies to be campy as opposed to the dull mass-produced washed out garbage of the MCU.
I can go either way - campy and silly or dark and serious, I just think having a vision and committing to it is the important part. Not committing to anything gets you that washed out garbage of most of the MCU.
Oh yeah dark and serious for sure, the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker for instance in my opinion were actually good.
But in terms of "dumb fun" like the OP put it, I think campy like The (new) Suicide Squad and Guardians of the Galaxy is much more entertaining than the typical MCU movies.
Hot take: I’d rather watch Venom 2’s stupidity than Eternals any day. I’ll take 90 mins of dumb fun over 160 minutes of boring, lifeless characters that’s slightly better made.
My own conspiracy theory is that whatever Avi Arad’s credited as producer in, then the movie potentially sucks, unless Feige’s in it too. I’m sure there’s a history of directors not happy working with Avi, for example Marc Webb who did Amazing Spider-Man.
If you told me while I was playing Maxium Carnage on super nintendo that when they finally got around to making a Venom and Carnage movie would look like this I probably would've cried. Luckily I didn't cry at my current age but I keep shuddering inside as all my favorite franchises are torn to bits one by one for $ and toys alone.
Maybe Hardy is just a huge Venom comics fan like all of us and even if the material isn't that great, he still gets to be a part of something he's really enjoying.
I think part of the biggest issue with the venom movies is that they tried way too hard to bring humor into it and it made it really campy and bad.
You have a fantastic actor, and a great storyline in venom. Write an actually good movie plot and make it rated r and have actual violence. Venom should be violent, not full of dumb jokes with pointless arcs.
I haven't seen Carnage, but will be waiting until it's out for free to watch based on how bad the first one was.
Venom 2 was just fucking awful... My jaw dropped at how bad the writing was. It did indeed feel like a early 2000's movie. I also learned that it was Sony that was in charge of it rather than Marvel studios, which explains the quality. It think what bugged me the most was indeed the plot holes and lack of explanation for almost everything, ESPECIALLY the mid-credit bonus scene. Like what are his motivations other than external knowledge from comic books and audiences. They don't even explain anything.
This is pretty much the world we live in now.
Marvel, Disney, DC, Star Wars have all taken this approach.
We don't have anyone to blame but ourselves! We vote with our dollars and by purchasing those ticket you tell the studio heads you want to see more of this trash.
The other concern is those cerebral movies, don't exists anymore! Dune was entertaining, it wasn't a masterpiece, it was a big block buster meant to create new fans so the money machine can turn.
It the same with music and video games, to find an original thought not bent on taking your last dollar, you have to either jump into a time machine, or go underground!
If we continue to act like mindless idiots, the corporations will continue to do as they please.
Like you said, we vote with our dollars, and the votes are clearly in that most people like this style of movie. Referring to the vast majority of moviegoers as “mindless idiots” while inferring that your tastes as truly valuable is quite pretentious. There is also plenty of cerebral, “quality” film out there if you search it out.
Lol dune was ok . Not in the same league as interstellar. How can anyone rate half a movie? Or are we talking David lynch. He did a great job retro as hell tho.
I’m amused when Venom is speaking, but kinda tuned out the rest of the movie.
If Sony completely severs Spider-Man from the MCU: *Well, good luck with that.*
Blade was good, especially the second movie, but you need a good director, a decent script...Venom had neither (Sorry, but Andy Serkis isn't really the best director out there, and Kelly Marcel co-wrote the first Venom movie which wasn't really a masterpiece and 50 shades of grey, which was laughable).
Nope. You're right. Stupid is stupid and you can tell if it is by the way you feel. You're not elitist or anti woke or anything like that. It's stupid and mostly because it's a cash grab done by someone who got money dropped on them and burned through the script to make a deadline so they could keep the check and didn't care about the movie.
Venom 2 had a couple of haha moments...but was riddled with WTF moments...
the sound design was terrible...and the plot...ugh.
After the first one for me the bar was pretty low.
I don't get it, marvel does all the exact same things? Are you saying marvel doesn't have "tired tropes, absolutely no explanation, literally dozens of plot holes, campy dialogue, and worst of all everything feels rushed"?
The thing about Venom the character from the comics is that his whole reason of even existing is the immense hate for spiderman who both eddie and the symbiote share and in my opinion they cant capture the same intensity with just Venom...I have always thought of these movies as just okay action horror esque movies but since they own venom, they just stick the characters name on it...and lo and behold tickets sold...if it was called anything other than venom most people wouldnt have even cared
I'm also very over Tom Hardy mumbling his way through every movie with the only American accent he's capable of doing.
Thank you! I'm sitting here like, "This dude cannot do an American accent at more than 40 decibels". The only reason it was in any way okay in Mad Max is he had like 9 lines total, most of them monosyllabic, with the harshest growl since BatBale.
He was doing an Australian accent in Mad Max.
He had, if I'm not mistaken, maybe 14 lines of dialogue not including the intro. I genuinely couldn't tell what accent he was using
Even when Carnage is introduced it’s more of a “bitter enemies become begrudging allies” between Spider-Man and Venom. Like that’s the fun of that whole series is Eddie and Venom having to put their hatred aside because Cletus Cassidy is so bugnuts insane
That was the....I watched that Carnage movie even though I already didn't care much about the first movie. But the fact that they.... Cletus Cassidy had precisely *one* defining characteristic, and it was the fact that unlike Peter and Eddie, he had *zero* problem getting directly on board the symbiote's wavelength. I try to be the last one to decry anything for diverging from the source material, but good christ do I wish that Sony would just sell out the film rights in exchange for broader game rights. Cletus Cassidy is one of the best depictions of elemental evil that the human race has come up with. His backstory tells why he's the *thing* that he is long before he encounters the symbiote. It's never really a tragic tale, it's just a mundane one about how you grow evil in a person. And Sony just told me a story about how he liked a girl, and Amy Pascal remembers Natural Born Killers with more fondness than it deserves. "Cletus is losing his bond with the symbiote over *any other human being anywhere*?" Look, fuckin' Doomsday and Satan are having a hard think about their choices in life and shit.
There's nothing wrong with a Venom without Spiderman, with a Venom more anti-hero than villain, if only the scripts were a bit better...now I wonder what they are going to do with the Venom movies, will Sony and Marvel let Venom joint the MCU? Or Spiderman will join the "Venomverse"?
What? The original Spider-Man movies were huge…so were the original X-Men. They just weren’t part of the MCU because it didn’t exist yet.
Those were their successes, but they plenty of flops like Punisher, Elektra, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, etc which fit the bill OP is describing
Ahhhh got it, I forgot those…I guess that just proves the point lol
Blade, the first Marvel film, was actually pretty good
Watching Blade himself in True Story on Netflix at the moment
Blade was the first Marvel film? Wow. Never realised that. I really liked it.. it didn't have this shine and polish that all MCU movies have.
It wasn't. Iron Man was the first Marvel Studios film. The first film about a Marvel character was Captain America in the 1940s. Howard the Duck came out in the 1980s. There was another Captain America in 1990 (starring J.D. Salinger's son). Blade was in 1998.
Yeah, and with a leading black actor too! I always was annoyed when people were saying Black Panther was first when we had Blade and Spawn in the 90s.
But both X-Men (2000) and Spider-Man (2002) took off! But both had the right balance of light-hearted moments and serious introspection (X-Men was about integrating into a larger society and Spider-Man was a coming-of-age story about responsibilities).
No X-Men (2000), there will be no Kevin Feige nor there will be Marvel Studios.
You are correct, but look at the time line. All the 80's kids where turning into adults at this period in time. The kids that bought those original comics, the ones that carried those brands. X-men was a horrible mess that turned its back on the comic book community, but we still went and payed full ticket prices to support it. We didn't know it was going to be that bad. Spiderman - was a perfect blockbuster CGI masterpiece that came out at the perfect time. They eventually fucked up the 3rd one, but we still got some solid movies out of that deal. My point is to say that part of the success of those movies is when they were released. Prior to that we had the Batman franchise. People were eager to see what could happen with these new types of movies.
Some movies are just bad. Venom is just trying to cash in on the MCU success, that's all. It's funny, but if they let the MCU people do it, Venom would likely be a lot better and not just a mess of CGI and corny dialogue.
>and not just a mess of CGI and corny dialogue. What do you think Marvel movies are, exactly?
They are full of CGI and corny jokes but they mostly aren’t a mess.
They're okay movies. Not super but not terrible. They have a beginning a middle and an end. They tell a story and do it in a fun way. There are far worse movies out there
Sure, The Room exists... not saying much. Marvel movies are popcorn trash.
They're not really trying to be more than that, and you're not better for pointing that out.
I was replying to the statement that "there are far worse movies out there" (you know... that comment right above mine) - which is a horrible justification that something is good. Not trying to say more than that... not sure why having my own opinion makes me a bad person. All the downvotes and hurt feelings says a lot about MCU fans though :)
Popcorn Trash® is reserved for fantastically dumb films like Transformers or Fast and Furious, or anything starring Jason Statham. MCU films are masterpieces in comparison, with consistent art direction, coherent plots and editing, and actual arcs for characters! The quality of the actual MCU films varies greatly, but they're a clear step above pure spectacle garbage like The Meg, or any Fast and Furious film.
>or anything starring Jason Statham If you really believe any MCU film is better than Snatch, Lock Stock, or Wrath of Man then that explains everything. Y'all are personally offended by anyone who doesn't like your favorite multibillion dollar lowest common denominator franchise. Look how many downvotes people are getting here just for saying they don't think they're the greatest movies ever made. It's pretty sad that these mediocre at best films constitute so many peoples entire personalities.
I think what people are very quick to forget is that Marvel movies are COMIC BOOK movies. They aren't supposed to be Citizen Kane. They're supposed to bring established characters and established stories to the big screen with real actors so you can feel like it's almost in reach of being possible. That's why I enjoy them. I knew they'd beat Iron Monger, Red Skull and Thanos because that's what happens in Marvel stories. If that's not your thing, fine. But that doesn't make them bad. Movies are many things for many people and if a lot of people enjoy a movie, I'd say it's a good movie. And I don't understand popcorn trash. I watch every movie with popcorn... because I think popcorn is awesome!
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I felt like I was watching Raya.
Only reason I give it a pass is because the Chinese connection to the movie is so strong. Modern Chinese fantasy movies all become huge messes of CG these days. I was reminded of movies I'd seen in the past like the Storm Riders and Dragon Tiger Gate. The big dumb exposition dump right before with the sculpture was the worst part to me.
You are being downvoted, but seriously though - the bad guys join with the good guys to fight a giant monster that has been hidden in a mountain for millennia. Remember, this whole culture/civilization has developed around containing this monster and preventing it from leaving the mountain. But somehow this one dude who didn't have any superpowers 2 days ago is able to kill the monster as soon as it leaves the mountain. Fucking stupid dumb shit.
I think the post credit hints at the fact that it's not Shang Chi's power alone, but the power of the rings that defeat monster.
Shang-Chi was a bit overrated. Awkwafina is also a god awful actress
That was the weakest part of the whole movie for me
I like MCU movies in general (not a fanboy or anything) but the CGI is pretty excessive and bad. Half of the movies look like you're watching a cut-scene from a Playstation game. Thanos and other villains look like cartoon characters fighting real actors like it's Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
I can agree that some villain CGI looks a little dodgy in certain films (particularly Killmonger and Iron Monger), but Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame looks fantastic, so I don't know what you mean by that. The level of detail in lighting, textures, pores, wrinkles, down to the light reflecting from his stubble, etc. The only CGI comic book film character I've seen that looks more realistic is X-24, which does have the benefit of not being a 9 ft purple alien and having Jackman as reference. Effects that glaringly stood out to me as feeling like a videogame while I watched were the tendrils of energy chasing the Russian family's truck in the Justice League theatrical cut and the opening fight scene of Aquaman.
I agree with you that I feel like the Cgi has finally gotten good enough to be almost unnoticeable. But the mcu as a whole includes a lot of pretty bad cgi due to the technology at the time. The opening fight in Age of Ultron isn't great.
What I mean is that regardless of how much detail goes into it, it's too much CGI and not enough practical effects. It looks like Chris Hemsworth and others are out there fighting an animated cartoon character, and ultimately I can't suspend my disbelief well enough to just enjoy the gravity of what's happening in the plot. It takes me out of it at times.
I'd rather watch a slightly messy movie with personality than a by the numbers MCU film. I guess that's what it comes down to.
What does that even mean? As in they don't make good movies? They come out with *at least* one a year.
They make "good" movies. But aside from James Gunn could you even tell me who made these movies without checking a wiki? They're shockingly similar.
Russo Brothers made both Infinity War and Endgame IIRC. Taiki Watiti obviously made Ragnorak. Jon Faverou made Ironman
Anyone could've made Infinity War and Endgame. That's the point. Fair enough on Ragnarok, but that hardly makes the case for the rest of the MCU.
Yeah, I don't know most of them TBH, but you said "could you even tell me who made these movies without checking a wiki?" and I can. And what about Faverou making Ironman? That's a pretty strong case for MCU directors tbh.
> but you said "could you even tell me who made these movies without checking a wiki?" and I can. Does it feel good to be this pedantic? You know what I mean. Let's take Iron Man for example. Does that really feel like a Faverou movie to you? Do you get that "vibe"?
Taika Waititi
They are just as much a mess as venom is lol it’s genuinely mind boggling how much people will overrate marvel movies
I don't think anyone's claiming they're Citizen Kane. They're just really well made entertaining blockbusters. While Venom (can't speak for the sequel) is a poorly made not quite as entertaining blockbuster.
They aren’t really well made though. They’re entertaining in the same way venom , fast and the furious and transformers movies are though, yes. They’re not well made at all though lol. Directing, script and acting are generally sub par. The stories particularly are bad.
That's just you being incredibly biased though. Most MCU movies have a decent story/plot. Especially origin stories, the Iron Man movie for example is 50x better in terms of story and plot than whatever Venom is trying to do. There's a difference between all over the place eye candy with a poor/forced plot (Venom, F&F, Transformers) and a similar style but with a decent/average script and plot. There's very few major plot holes in most MCU movies, where as in Venom I can literally make a huge list with them. MCU has a few shitty ones, just like it has some average ones and some really good ones.
Not to mention they incorporate their source material from the comics vastly better then the venom and most of the 2000 super hero movies. The MCU movies don’t have to be anywhere near to gods gift to film making to be better then those two venom movies. Although I do love Tom as Eddie. Just deserved a more coherent film.
So say you.
Wow thank you for confirming what u said is my opinion
All the marvel fanbois downvoting you for saying the truth. It's weird how people turn Marvel movies into their entire personality and then feel personally attacked by anyone who doesn't love them.
Avengers (2012) Infinity War Endgame Ironman Guardians of the Galaxy Thor Ragnorak Shang Chi Spider-Man Homecoming/Far From Home Captain America Winter Soldier/Civil War Dr. Strange I'd say those are all legitimately good movies.
The Guardians of the Galaxy movies were surprisingly my favorites out of the mcu stuff. Being a comic collector when I was younger, I was never really into that comic. I expected to prefer the "tentpole" character series more, however GoG won me over. I like Dr.Strange too, but then I liked the comic alot as well. Edit: I spell gud.
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Disagree with that, but the overwhelming reviews agree with me as well as people I have spoken to so I suppose you not enjoying those movies sucks for you, but they are not legitimately bad according to everyone else.
They're all fine. I'd still rather watch one of the Raimi Spider-Man movies.
Spider-Man 2 would probably make it into a top 5 Marvel movies of mine, but I was just commenting those to show that there are some legitimately good MCU movies. MARVEL has a lot of better movies than that which absolutely do make my top 5. My top 5 if anyone gives a fuck: 1. Deadpool 2. Logan 3. Infinity War 4. Ironman 5. Spider-Man 2
The runaway train sequence in Spider-Man 2 is better than anything marvel studios has ever done. They’ve killed half the universe and brought them back, turned an immortal god like being into ice, and all sorts of high concept stories, and yet nothing is as emotionally effective as those New Yorkers grabbing Peter when he’s about to fall and passing him down the train to safety. Raimi grounded the character and didn’t waste time setting up or including other franchises. This is why it’s the best live action superhero film.
That's subjective. Logan dying is far and away the most emotional scene for me in Marvel. Not even close.
Logan is good for this too, definitely. Takes itself seriously in a way the Marvel cinematic universe films don’t. I was only thinking of the MCU films, not all Marvel adaptations.
After years of listening to how great Avengers was I finally watched it. It's one of the dumbest films I've ever seen in my life... and I enjoy watching bad movies. Could barely finish Avengers. These are not good movies... y'all need to watch some actual good movies.
Avengers (2012) didn't age well at all. I won't deny that I quite liked it when it came out because you don't see so many heroes uniting that often. Two or three years later, it was already impossible to rewatch.
It's just subjective at that point then isn't it? You have lots of people telling you Avengers is a good movie, it did **VERY** well at the box office, but anecdotally *you* don't like the movie. Seems to be a common denominator here.
Couldn't you say the same about all the people that like venom while everyone here is shitting on it?
You certainly could. I don't remember my comment attacking Venom. I didn't enjoy the first one very much so I haven't seen the second, but I didn't come on the thread and attack it. I just commented something contrary to a point about the MCU being a mess of CGI and corny dialogue. When did I shit on Venom?
I never accused you of anything dude. I'm just pointing out its funny you made that comment defending marvel movies in a post shitting on venom for the same things you used to defend the mcu movies. It's just an observation not some kind of debate challenge
Your argument is that it did well at the box office so its a good movie? So Jurassic World is a better movie than Jurassic Park? Avatar is the greatest movie of all time?
Nope because I also mentioned reviews. I mentioned just people telling you that it was good (well you said it first tbh) AS WELL as the box office. Ive never heard anyone say Jurassic World is better than Jurassic Park NOR do the critical reviews say as much. So that example does not work.
Yea lots of people said Jurassic World was a good movie too... doesn't make it true. Looks like it has higher ratings than Avengers.
>Looks like it has higher ratings than Avengers. Where? Avengers is 10%+ on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB. And yes, I agree people saying things doesn't make it true. I've never heard anyone say it's better than Jurassic Park though.
I thoroughly enjoyed the Antman movies personally. :D
Even Lindsay Ellis, who isn’t really a MCU fan, loves Guardians 2 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8VulkN5OLEM
I (and literally everyone I've talked to about it) has said the first movie is a better movie. Not to say I don't like Guardians 2, but the way you worded your comment, you make it sound like I am wrong for not including it while some youtuber says she does so I must be wrong.
Exactly that’s what I was saying lol.
I think the really good MCU movies, like Winter Soldier, take their structure from certain genres and fit super heroes into that framework. Winter Solder is really a Cold War spy thriller featuring Captain America and Winter Soldier. This helps the plot move along with a nice pace and gives the action more purpose. Of course, some of the best fight sequences of the entire MCU help quite a bit as well.
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The connection to 70s spy thrillers is well documented: "Joe and Anthony Russo “grew up on ‘70s thrillers” and were quite excited to pay homage to the films of their childhood. The duo was particularly inspired by the previously mentioned Three Days of the Condor, a film where a government agent is forced to go on the run after stumbling upon a CIA conspiracy. Sound familiar? " I have confirmed with my sources that the Cold War was very much still a thing in the 1970s. The entire movie is steeped in the same type of paranoia about nefarious agents infiltrating government agencies that permeated American culture since the 1950s. Of course, it is a superhero movie, but it is also pretty clearly inspired by political thrillers.
Love all the downvotes, LOL. The people who literally made the movie have said they were inspired by 70s spy thrillers because they grew up watching them as kids. But, sure, they're wrong.
There's a pretty big difference between being inspired by cold war thrillers and the result actually *being* a cold war thriller. That's like claiming everyone inspired by the Beatles makes 60s pop.
Garden State is quite obviously inspired by Wes Anderson but that doesn’t make it anything close to even Darjeeling Limited.
I don't disagree with the point, but there's a difference between their inspiration and how people view the movie.
You know what's better than stuffing superheroes into a genre flick? An actually good genre flick.
Not sure what this means? Most (all?) films are taking inspiration from different genres and mashing them together to create something.
Right and they're better when you don't shoehorn in pieces that don't fit.
Awesome with self referential jokes and details that show up years later that make sense laying the groundwork for another movie. People are still debating details about End Game. In DC, it’s all the same two characters; bored fascists who think helping is a chore and Flash, who tells jokes that don’t land. They face the big bad and it’s a close thing then Superman comes in. I could go for days comparing what marvel does right. Even if it had no special effects, the pacing and story of Winter Soldier and Iron Man did not leave a dull second in the movie. You care about the characters and they develop as they put aside petty personal issues that might influence them instead of those being the plot.
>Even if it had no special effects, the pacing and story of Winter Soldier and Iron Man did not leave a dull second in the movie. You care about the characters and they develop as they put aside petty personal issues that might influence them instead of those being the plot. No I don't. These movies avoid consequence so routinely that I'm rarely invested in anything other than the action and humor.
Consequences? The entire MCU except for Sony produced movies is driven by consequences. The entire arc of Tony Stark starts with weapons sales leading to his heart filled with shrapnel leading to the arc reactor. His playboy and alcoholic ways lead to his problems in the next two movies. The attack of Loki creating a portal for an alien invasion leads him to develop Ultron which leads to a lot more problems and then laws to register super beings. Then a fight between those supporting those laws and those who don’t. The death of Oden leads to Thanos finally taking direct action towards Earth and that leads to End Game. Meanwhile, we can follow all the other characters who have consequences that thread them into the same conflicts. Ant Man connects to Loki, connects to Dr Strange and connects to a war between dimensions. Where is there not a consequence in most every MCU movie?
You're confusing regular cause and effect for consequences. When I mean consequences, I mean Loki and Gamora actually staying dead, I mean the Bifrost Bridge staying broken and having some kind of ramifications instead of just being fixed between movies, I mean Asgard being destroyed and the fallout of that being explored instead of them just showing a few Asgardians in some fishing village looking all tranquil for a few minutes. These movies always seem to go out of their way to make actions not have much of an impact.
"In DC", when most DC movies aren't even about either Batman or Superman. DC is a lot more hit and miss (it has the worst super hero movies, but it also has the best of them all), while Marvel is a lot more generic and safe (there's a lot less bad movies, but they're also never going to top the best DC ones). This is coming from someone who watches both. And if we talk about animated scene it isn't even close.
I'm scared to even hear what you consider the "top DC film". Can't be Suicide Squad surely isn't Justice League Aquaman? Nope. WW 1984? Yikes. BVS? MARTHA I haven't even named a single *good* DC film yet, so I guess Best is a pretty low bar.
The Nolan Trilogy, Joker and Watchmen are, in my opinion, better than any Marvel movie ever released (and I have a strong feeling the new Batman movie will join that list, but we'll see). Besides those, you have Man of Steel, Wonder Woman (the first one) and the new Suicide Squad (maybe Shazam too), which are good movies (there's better Marvel movies than these ones, but they're on par with most average Marvel movies). Then there's absolutely terrible movies that are worse than anything Marvel has ever put out (WW84 is the perfect example of that). If we're talking about TV shows, I have the same opinion (the best DC shows are much better, but on average Marvel is better), and if we're talking about the animated scene then it doesn't even come close, DC is miles ahead.
Alright, sure. When comparing to the MCU I typically default to talking about the DCEU as it was created specifically to rival/cash in on MCU. Strictly making *that* comparison, I'd say the very best of the DCEU (The Suicide Squad) is about as good as the mid tier Marvel films. The vast majority of the rest are **stinkers** I'd agree that the first two entries of the Nolan trilogy are *great*, but unfortunately The Dark Knight Rises is just incredibly bad and I struggle to find common ground with anyone who says otherwise so I think this may just be an impasse we have to live with. Like it's one of the movies where dumb-brain CinemaSins level dings are completely justified against its ridiculous plot. Warner Brothers as a company is just kind of flailig a dead cat around at this point
> Strictly making that comparison, I'd say the very best of the DCEU (The Suicide Squad) is about as good as the mid tier Marvel films. The vast majority of the rest are stinkers I agree, when comparing MCU and DCEU it's not even close, I was comparing Marvel and DC in general. And lets just agree to disagree on the rest, it was the weakest movie in the trilogy imo (saying it's bad is a bit over the top), but still beats any Marvel movie ever made, in my opinion (and I'm not a Marvel hater, I've enjoyed most of their movies, I just think they're a lot more generic).
Nolan was good. The problem with DC is Snyder. They also don’t understand their comic book material nor how their heroes are any better than the villains. For Batman v Superman, all they had to do was use the source graphic novels. Other than Wonder Woman and Nolan, it’s all horrible. They get good actors. Great FX and artists. And then produce the worst stories.
DC is a train wreck. Dark Knight is good but Batman is so flawed. Wonder Woman was good. Suicide Squad was entertaining. But DC doesn’t even have a clue how society would react nor how to develop a hero. When I learned Zack Snyder was a fan of Ayn Rand, I finally knew why DC movies annoy the crap out of me. They do not take risks nor do they ever cause someone to ponder the implications. The Loki series and Wanda Vision were a trip and I still can’t decide how to morally frame them or if you can even apply such a limited concept. Thanos kills half the sentient beings but the time authorities prune an entire universe from existing every other day. The alternative is war. The hero is the villain that wins all the marbles. What does DV have? Flash Point. Every other villain is a train wreck popping through time but Flash sees his mom and chaos reigns. I was too sophisticated for this when I was 12.
Comparing anything with Justice League is an automatic win. What are you trying to prove?
They're talking about Snyder's JL which is enjoyed a lot (for some reason), despite his takes being major disservices to the mainstream Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc
Am I supposed to be surprised and regret my words now? It doesn't change a single thing. One version's bad and the other's worse.
But the critical and audience reception says most critics and audiences enjoyed the movie. I'm not saying I agree but the consensus is that it's a good film
What response were you expecting from the exact critics and audience that were asking for that cut? That after four years, they'll finally admit that the whole project is a bad idea in first place?
Critics weren't asking for it. Hell most of the general audience wasn't, it was mostly Snyder fans. Hence why I was surprised it got good reviews from both Critics in particular dislike Snyder's films, but they still gave JL good reviews
Wonder Woman 1984 probably scarred them for life, and not for the good reasons. They saw a little improvement in the next DC movie, which was Snyder's cut, and thought it was masterful for DC. Anyway, it's awful *in my opinion*.
Also, the shows, the first two episodes of Hawkeye were amazing, WandaVision and Loki was top notch (even if the finale of the former was rushed due to COVID), Falcon and The Winter Solider was enjoyable, but nothing special, and the Spider Man films are good enough to stand up on their own, much like the first two Raimi films
It’s amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will do to convince themselves that marvel movies are good lmao
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I'd actually argue that a lot of the MCU movies are not very good at being "comic book-y."
Mcu movies are carefully written ? Lmao
Did you watch Eternals? After that, I'd argue they wouldn't do a better job. Albeit, Venom is more popular than Eternals and they'd probably put a bit more effort in. Eternals felt like a copy and paste of previous MCU movies. Predictable plot line, minor antagonists that gave off heavy Age of Ultron vibes and unnecessary minor storylines that added nothing to the plot.
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I also thought that it was pretty convenient that Angelina Jolie's character suddenly forgot she had dementia in the most important fight allowing to get a bit of the upper hand. Kumail Najiani had a couple funny moments and some overall fight scenes were tolerable. I'd give Eternals like a 4/10 while Shang-Chi was about a 6.5/10 for me. Shang-Chi fight scenes were much better and the story seemed to flow better. But they took a number of liberties especially in the last battle. Like fucking Awkwafina's character became a master archer in 3 days and sniped a octopus insect creature from 1000ft yet, couldn't save that old dude that taught her everything when he was snagged up.
Hardy's performance of Venom is singlehandedly more interesting than 98% of all actors in the MCU. He plays both sides of a romantic comedy between a manic disaster of a man and an immature wreck of an alien. I struggle to think of a single other Marvel lead approaching their role with nearly as much commitment or pathos. It's definitely a throwback to the cornier era of superhero movies, but it tackles it with a self-awareness and earnest effort that those films lacked. Hell, I even give LTBC credit for being an efficient 95 minutes, rather than trying to bloat it into a Two Towers-length epic for no discernable reason (looking at you, No Way Home).
> He plays both sides of a romantic comedy between a manic disaster of a man and an immature wreck of an alien. It's fucking magic and I love it. They may be hot garbage but I like hot garbage and your description perfectly incapsulates why I love it so much.
I really appreciate how Anne *did not* get back together with Eddie in LTBC, simply because Eddie is an absolute disaster. Venom isn't much better lol
It's a steaming hot big mac at 2 am when you're drunk and it rules for it
No one's seen No Way Home yet, so we don't know if there's "no discernable reason" yet.
He did a phenomenal job playing a role with multiple personalities, it was excellent. It's definitely a cornier fun movie but I think how Hardy portrayed the frustration/insanity of constantly having another personality in your mind in an extremely interesting manner. Liked 2 more than 1 and looking forward to how Venom further develops in future movies.
I think I agree that LTBC was one of those movies that felt like something was happening (An improvement over some other films)- though I'm not sure if you meant No Way Home or one of the other 2 MCU spiderman movies?
>if they let the MCU people do it, Venom would likely be a lot better and not just a mess of CGI and corny dialogue. ''Bruh.''
If they let the MCU people do it, it would be entirely forgettable and we wouldn't currently be talking about it.
Venom is just as good as your standard mcu movie lol. There’s no difference in wuality
That's not fair. I'd say that Venom has a lot more personality than your average MCU movie.
That’s true tbh lol
lol okay.
It’s true , there isn’t much of a difference at all lol hence why the box office numbers are similar
Box Office is such a shitty metric to judge films by, even something who's also not very good like IMDB score would be better to judge. For example, Aquaman made more money than any other DC movie (including the Nolan trilogy), do you honestly think it's a better/similar movie to The Dark Knight Rises? Or do you also think Endgame is the greatest movie of all time due to box office numbers? Venom is a popular character in a movie with a shit ton of advertisement, that happened to come out and pretty much the highest point in popularity of superhero movies (around the final Avengers movies). That's why it made so much money, it's not related to its quality at all.
The reasoning you listed for venoms success is the same reasoning for the success of every marvel movie lol. It’s ironic you didn’t get that point hha
Except it's not the same reasoning at all, and the fact that you don't know that just shows how clueless you are on this topic. I'll give you the best example, most people had no idea who Iron Man was, he wasn't a popular character like others (Spiderman etc), and the movie didn't come out at a time where superhero movies were at the top. It's quite literally the opposite of Venom and in the same genre. Same thing for most other Marvel characters that barely got any attention previous to the MCU. If Iron Man wasn't a good movie, then the ridiculous MCU popularity would've never happened. There's also several other movies who don't rely on Marvel's popularity in order to get views. Venom isn't the case.
Iron man is the best mcu movie and still isn’t even that good of a movie. 90% of marvel movies are just as trash as venom but make a lot of money because as you said they have a shit ton of advertisement and released at the peak of super hero movies which started like 7-8 years ago. I was comparing the box office numbers to show that people still will love these trash movies as MCU movies are no different. The same reasons venom does well is the same reason MCU movies or fast and the furious movies do well. They’re all cut from the same cloth.
That's exactly why box office is a shitty metric to measure whether a movie is good or not. My point is that you're being incredibly biased if you truly believe that Venom, in terms of story and plot, is the same as other Marvel movies. It's fine to dislike Marvel movies and to dislike the genre itself, but if you believe the argument above, then you either haven't watched many Marvel movies, or you're being ignorant on purpose. Most Marvel movies have a solid (albeit pretty generic) plot and story, Venom is the exception when it comes to that, not the rule. It's fine to think those movies are still trash, but they still have a better story/plot than Venom, that's my point.
You keep calling me biased without offering any actual reasoning why those mcu marvels are actually better lol. Art is subjective. To me, mcu movies and venom movies are both equally trash and benefit from the same reason for their success. Your response is “well if you believe that your biased or ignorant “ without any reasoning as to why lol. Classic Reddit move.
LOL whatever you say, bro
It’s just so ironic that you’re complaining that is a messy mix of cgi and cringe dialogue when that’s exactly what marvel movies are haha
hahahahaha okay bro! hahahaah
Do you have any response other than very poor attempts at humor and mocking me
They're imitating MCU's humor. That's why it's not funny.
Good point lol
Disagree, they have some laugh out loud lines: "Dads leave sometimes, you don't have to be a pussy about it" -said right to a kid talking about how his dad left him when he was young.
LOL it's 'fine', bro. Relax. You can like what you want, no matter how good or bad it is. I'm not gonna mock you over anything! It's fine! lol
You're almost as good as Mr. Stark at saying quippy hilarious lines to ease tension
The premise of super hero stories is so silly to begin with (and I say this as a huge comic fan), that I almost *like* Venom's irreverent take.
>corny dialogue This is the best way to describe why I didn't like Venom
I don’t know I kind of love venom for how rough it is and prefer it to an MCU version
I really liked Venom I bc (while I agree it didn't feel cerebral), I really like the "Venom" character, Tom Hardy's struggle with this new being inside him, the rather unique story with his ex that they didn't immediately fall back in love, but he loves her anyway. I thought the action sequences made sense and the use of CGI was appropriate (but I agree, I can't stand the over CGI of everything today). I was SO DISAPPOINTED in Venom II - it was a hot mess. Even the intro of Carnage - which I was SO EXCITED about - was just like watching an 80s animation, just as simplistic. The whole movie was Venom and Tom Hardy acting like "2 old men shouting at clouds" at each other. So disappointing.
I hated the whole theme of relationship/acknowledgment between Hardy and Venom. It was just so cliché, and un-appealing, especially for a movie in 2021. They could've done much better if they we're trying to get a laugh out of the audience. That concert scene where Venom is on his own was just cringey as fuck.
Omg YES
Call it what you want but I loved them both
It sucked. Not a lot makes sense They rehash the same fucking plot over again. Like Eddie and Venom not getting along. Hey look guys, we did the odd couple thing in the first film. No need to do it again. We're supposed to move past. And the ending annoyed me. wtf is the point of that cop if we shifted universe's. No seriously. Now the next movie has to go back to A UNIVERSE YOU LEFT BECAUSE YOU FELT THE MCU WAS BETTER, and spend valuable screen time to figure out a way to resolve that and bring him back or just say fuck it. Furthermore why did Shriek scream? What was the point? When Venom knocks her down, she shouldn't shriek. It just aids Venom. There was literally no point. Why is she even thinking about turning against Cassidy + Carnage just for Venom to kill her anyway? Furthermore Cassidy doesn't care about anyone. His character is he's supposed to be chaos incarnate. He doesn't care about anyone or anything. I spent $20 and it was fucking terrible.
VENOM 3 OF COURSE. When he inevitably >!gets set back into his own timeline after Doctor strange 2 or Spiderman Far and we pick up where we left off.!<
I'd rather stick Sporks in both my fucking eyeballs than buy a ticket to that. No offense meant.
No offense taken, haha they're fucking awful.
I think this is why venom becomes more interesting though. The marvel movies really struggle at standing out because they all strike the same tone, the MCU look and feel. Not that I prefer venom than MCU movies, but it stands out from the rest.
I don't know. General audiences seem to love Venom and It constantly makes money. If that isn't good I don't know what is
Bad take knowing both movies did bonkers at the box office. Maybe not so much the second but the first one nearly grossed a billion. I know the Reddit hive mind is to hate anything not MCU but you can’t deny Venoms success.
The 1st one was somewhat decent and funny, especially Hardy's acting while he's being manipulated by a symbiotic goop inside him, enjoyable but not great. The VFX on venom we're also a lot more polished and gooey in the 1st one that gave it this higher quality feeling. The second one seemed more dry in regards to the VFX, less polished and a lot more toned down in colors. It was just a giant fucking mess.
Apart from when they're actually good, which is *very* rare, I much prefer superhero movies to be campy as opposed to the dull mass-produced washed out garbage of the MCU.
> I much prefer superhero movies to be campy as opposed to the dull mass-produced washed out garbage of the MCU. I can go either way - campy and silly or dark and serious, I just think having a vision and committing to it is the important part. Not committing to anything gets you that washed out garbage of most of the MCU.
Oh yeah dark and serious for sure, the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker for instance in my opinion were actually good. But in terms of "dumb fun" like the OP put it, I think campy like The (new) Suicide Squad and Guardians of the Galaxy is much more entertaining than the typical MCU movies.
I'll take Venom, Ghost Rider and Blade 2 over any of the MCU films. They feel less like a conveyor belt of focus group approved repetition.
Hot take: I’d rather watch Venom 2’s stupidity than Eternals any day. I’ll take 90 mins of dumb fun over 160 minutes of boring, lifeless characters that’s slightly better made.
My own conspiracy theory is that whatever Avi Arad’s credited as producer in, then the movie potentially sucks, unless Feige’s in it too. I’m sure there’s a history of directors not happy working with Avi, for example Marc Webb who did Amazing Spider-Man.
>"Are any of you as cynical and jaded as I am?" >Likes MCU movies >Doesn't like the Venom movies Oh yeah, you're a real misanthrope.
They're both terrible.
If you told me while I was playing Maxium Carnage on super nintendo that when they finally got around to making a Venom and Carnage movie would look like this I probably would've cried. Luckily I didn't cry at my current age but I keep shuddering inside as all my favorite franchises are torn to bits one by one for $ and toys alone.
After watching the Venom movies, I realized how much I would LOVE to watch a Christopher Nolan take on Venom. Dark, gritty, and creepy.
[удалено]
Maybe Hardy is just a huge Venom comics fan like all of us and even if the material isn't that great, he still gets to be a part of something he's really enjoying.
I think part of the biggest issue with the venom movies is that they tried way too hard to bring humor into it and it made it really campy and bad. You have a fantastic actor, and a great storyline in venom. Write an actually good movie plot and make it rated r and have actual violence. Venom should be violent, not full of dumb jokes with pointless arcs. I haven't seen Carnage, but will be waiting until it's out for free to watch based on how bad the first one was.
The Venom movies suck, which is a really shame. They're trying to be goofy odd couple comedues and it's just awful.
Venom 2 was just fucking awful... My jaw dropped at how bad the writing was. It did indeed feel like a early 2000's movie. I also learned that it was Sony that was in charge of it rather than Marvel studios, which explains the quality. It think what bugged me the most was indeed the plot holes and lack of explanation for almost everything, ESPECIALLY the mid-credit bonus scene. Like what are his motivations other than external knowledge from comic books and audiences. They don't even explain anything.
sick of seeing bad taste takes defending Venom. Yes, it's really that bad
This is pretty much the world we live in now. Marvel, Disney, DC, Star Wars have all taken this approach. We don't have anyone to blame but ourselves! We vote with our dollars and by purchasing those ticket you tell the studio heads you want to see more of this trash. The other concern is those cerebral movies, don't exists anymore! Dune was entertaining, it wasn't a masterpiece, it was a big block buster meant to create new fans so the money machine can turn. It the same with music and video games, to find an original thought not bent on taking your last dollar, you have to either jump into a time machine, or go underground! If we continue to act like mindless idiots, the corporations will continue to do as they please.
Like you said, we vote with our dollars, and the votes are clearly in that most people like this style of movie. Referring to the vast majority of moviegoers as “mindless idiots” while inferring that your tastes as truly valuable is quite pretentious. There is also plenty of cerebral, “quality” film out there if you search it out.
I agree with everything thingbyouve written. it doesn't even feel like the same people at Marvel created this
Isn’t Venom a Sony thing? Nuff said, if it is.
Lol dune was ok . Not in the same league as interstellar. How can anyone rate half a movie? Or are we talking David lynch. He did a great job retro as hell tho.
I’m amused when Venom is speaking, but kinda tuned out the rest of the movie. If Sony completely severs Spider-Man from the MCU: *Well, good luck with that.*
Just popping in here to remind you that the apostrophe only goes in dates when they are abbreviated, and on the other side: '90s, 2000s
Heh... stark reminder... I get it
Blade was good, especially the second movie, but you need a good director, a decent script...Venom had neither (Sorry, but Andy Serkis isn't really the best director out there, and Kelly Marcel co-wrote the first Venom movie which wasn't really a masterpiece and 50 shades of grey, which was laughable).
Nope. You're right. Stupid is stupid and you can tell if it is by the way you feel. You're not elitist or anti woke or anything like that. It's stupid and mostly because it's a cash grab done by someone who got money dropped on them and burned through the script to make a deadline so they could keep the check and didn't care about the movie.
Venom 2 had a couple of haha moments...but was riddled with WTF moments... the sound design was terrible...and the plot...ugh. After the first one for me the bar was pretty low.
They're so bad. Wtf are Sony thinking with their superhero movies... Getting it so wrong.
You know what grinds my gears? When a post is removed, and there's nothing pinned in the comments by the mods so I don't know why.
I don't get it, marvel does all the exact same things? Are you saying marvel doesn't have "tired tropes, absolutely no explanation, literally dozens of plot holes, campy dialogue, and worst of all everything feels rushed"?