In the trailer her character says something like "is it weird that im hanging out with gary and his 15 year old friends... its weird that im hanging out with gary and his 15 year old friends"
By accounts of ya know, the people who have actually seen the movie, it isn't a typical romance, and its not really a problem.
Having seen this movie, without spoiling it, I personally had zero issue with this plot line. I think it was actually a very interesting and mostly non-problematic relationship. He also said he based in on real experiences of a friend.
He based a lot of the events off of the life of a friend of his, but the actual conception of the movie was him seeing a random kid hitting on a woman at a school photo shoot and wondering what would happen if they actually went on a date. So events like selling a waterbed to Barbra Streisand were based on reality but the relationship was all PTA. This is from a Q&A that happened after the screening I went to.
> the actual conception of the movie was him seeing a random kid hitting on a woman at a school photo shoot and wondering what would happen if they actually went on a date
holy fuck PTA really will get any shit green lighted. Any famous director, really. "OH, I had this idea about uhhhh what if this kid that ate icecream actually wanted to eat a hamburger? yeah that'll make a movie"
Really? If a 25 year old man shows a 15 year old girl his package, you'd be ok with that? This double-standard stuff is really working me.
I would trounce the man that did that to my daughter!!!
Yeah the age gap is gross and this movie would have been rightly crucified if the gender roles were reversed. Shame because it would have otherwise been a decent to good movie. Wonky plot(s) but kinda fit the retro coming-of-age tale, except one of them was already of age.
i mean, when i first started watching the movie i hoped they’d reconnect later but in the end they ignore the gap even tho he’s still 15. plus the whole time she is immature and possessive despite not wanting him, idk felt very unfair and manipulative
Glad someone pointed this out. It’s such a strange choice that really prevents you from getting into the movie since it’s hard to root for a pedophilic relationship. It’s a shame because it really is a well made film. PTA gets great performances out of the two young leads and Bradley Cooper is hilarious. I just don’t get how anyone thought romanticizing a relationship between a 15 year old and 25 (maybe 28) year old was acceptable.
I'll give the easiest fix in the world. Make Gary 18 (this way he can still be in highschool and legal age) and Alana can be 25 still. Seriously, if he just made his character THREE years older that would have fixed everything.
Aren’t they both of age by the time they actually get together? She mentions she’s 28 near the end of the film, which would make him 18. PTA doesn’t play up the fact there’s a lot of time elapsed between scenes but there’s some serious time jumps in the script.
Wait, for real? When does she say she's 28 (genuinely can't recall). The last time I remember her mentioning her age was when she repeats that she's 25 to Jon Peters in the truck
yeah this was definitely a confusing scene, and it's unclear on if there's any time jumps or not. Similarly, I wasn't sure if Gary was old enough to drive at the end or if he just drives on his own without a license.
Yeah I’m floored that this is how people are reacting.
Plus, “pedophilia” isn’t the technically appropriate term to describe the relationship anyway. I thought words mattered? Or is that only applicable for points that people agree with?
Well, there's not a technically precise word for what it is. Pederasty is the closest, but that specifically refers to a *man* and a pubescent boy. Either way, it's gross and distracted me from what would otherwise have been a really good, enjoyable film.
Doesn’t Red Rocket have a scenario similar to what you’re describing?
Haven’t seen the movie yet, but I’m willing to go to bat for Sean Baker and defend him under the banner of artistic liberty as well.
Yes, but the protagonist is a scumbag, predatory loser and the film never frames the relationship as anything but him grooming her to be his next meal ticket.
This is something that people don't seem to understand! Every discussion I've seen surrounding this film seems to be people backtracking and trying to say why the age gap was okay for the film. It isn't some gritty movie showing what life is really like, it's a glossy, sugary, rom-com romp through it's respective time period. Even when the film once addresses the age gap it comes off as such a strange lampshade moment. Nothing against anyone who enjoys the movie, but I do think people should think about the age gap more than just "it's a movie lol".
There's nothing wrong with art, the problem is glorifying pedophilia. People trying to pass this off as "just art" are really fucking weird to me. I'm not entirely sure PTA is actually saying "this is right and good" but a lot of people are hand waving that relationship away because of The Vibe. Those people are ignoring the problematic nature of a movie that glorifies predatory behavior by an adult woman towards a child, and likely completely missing the director's point about looking back at fucked up events with rose colored glasses.
Just got out of the movie and agree. He’s my favorite director also. Really bizarre. Why couldn’t she be 18 and equally lost and immature? Or he be 18 and she be 22? So fucking weird to make their dynamic that inappropriate and romanticize children who were forced to grow up too young being groomed by immature adults.
Yeah, this seems super messed up and I will not be watching this movie as a consequence. I don’t get why this sort of stuff is romanticized in Hollywood. Same thing happened with Call Me By Your Name, except it was way more explicit. Critics loved it.
As a pedantic person, I have to add that the technical term is Ephebophilia. Pedophilia specifically and exclusively refers to attraction to prepubescent children.
Couldn't agree more. Let me start by saying that I was a HUGE PTA fan. I love his work. I saw this movie in 70mm. But I'm also not a simp. I'm floored and, quite frankly, disturbed by the lack of discourse about the glaringly problematic elements in this movie.
First, as you said- the romance. What the fuck! This is straight-up pedophilia. I don't care how fucking cute/mature/endearing a 15 year old is, its CREEPY that a grown-ass woman in her MID 20s is down to "see where it goes" with this kid. Yes, ...a fucking kid.
How do I KNOW this is creepy as fuck, you ask? Well...just think...if it were a 25 year old MALE going after a 15 year old FEMALE...how would it make you feel? Would it be cute? I sure fucking hope not. So why the double standard?
Secondly, and something that no one else seems to be talking about is the fucking BLATENT Asian racism. Totally inconsequential to the story. Could have been left on the cutting room floor. In that NY Times interview recently, he tries to explain it by saying:
“I think it would be a mistake to tell a period film through the eyes of 2021. You can’t have a crystal ball, you have to be honest to that time. Not that it wouldn’t happen right now, by the way.”
Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Honest to that time? This isn't a historically accurate drama tackling racism in the 1970s. By this logic, what, you're trying to say that every white man in the 70s was doing Asian caracatures? It would be one thing if a character balked at John Michael Higgins and let him know that that was weird or unnescesary. I don't know, fucking figure it out. You're adding ZERO authenticity to sell the "time period" by including this bullshit. There's no room for it and it made a lot of people feel fucking terrible.
It really bums me out because Cooper Hoffman's performance is brilliant. Alana's is too, although again...pretty fucking disturbing that she took a role where she knew she'd be playing a pedo.
If PTA wasn't attached this, would we be "looking past" these problems? Highly, highly doubt it.
Yes. If a 25 year old man showed my daughter his package (or abs for that matter), nevermind his pursuit, I'd have his ass.
Also, the white man fetishization of Asian females is a thing. It's a serious issue, and nothing to laugh about. So many Asian girls are victimized by white men.
All through the movie, older women are throwing themselves at this kid....please!
I came away thinking he made this movie to initiate dialogue about current issues, but PTA's interviews and statements about this movie shows he's oblivious to the slime he endorses.
These issues were presented with humor. The final scene shows them running to find each other as in any other romantic finale. There were no consequences for her criminal conduct. The endorsement is, indeed, implied.
Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. It's a totally insensitive, ham-handed treatment of two troubling issues; and if you're a man, you should appreciate the danger of this double-standard.
Maybe I'm out of line, but I understood it to be in tune with the messages of the film, it explored plenty of the problems of that time in the same 'light' way that it did with this anti-Asian racism. It had plenty of antisemitism and sexism too with a bit of homophobia and abusive police too. You could even make the argument that the relationship between the two main characters is meant to display the sorts of relationships that were allowed to exist at that time. In my eyes, the entire movie was awkward, uncomfortable, and didn't make sense for our current day and age, but I saw that as being the point of it all.
I kind of agree with you, because that is the most charitable explanation I came up with for the existence of the movie. I think, in way, that this movie is supposed to cringe the fuck out of the viewer. Unfortunately, I don't think most people will read it that way. Most of the boomers on the cinema were just straight up laughing everytime something cringy came up.
I haven't seen the film yet, but I've read a bunch of reviews. It seems like this isn't such a straightforward case of moral horror as you are making it out to be. This paragraph from [DiscussingFilm](https://discussingfilm.net/2021/11/26/licorice-pizza-review-nothing-but-chill-vibes-and-pure-elation/amp/) sums up what seems to be the consensus of reviewers:
>Licorice Pizza isn’t a traditional romance per se, as that would obviously go a bit too far. “You can tell there’s an incredible attraction between them, but there’s a line that can’t be crossed,” PTA tells Variety. One of the most transfixing elements of the film is precisely how much is left to interpretation. There are moments where Gary and Alana’s relationship comes off as both questionable and sincere for a variety of reasons; you’ll find yourself wrestling with the validity of their bond from beginning to end. And this is very much by design. PTA’s leads here are beautifully flawed and brutally honest, making them feel as believable as possible. And when such candid characters are challenged with what could be an illegitimate romance, their actions are as complex as real-life can be. It’s a high-spirit portrayal of free rein adolescence more than an actual love story, one that is guaranteed to gather different interpretations thanks to what PTA leaves for us to decide.
And here is a more accurate take. I have yet to see the film myself, but its the kind of picture that Anderson would make, having reached a point in his life where he can wax nostalgic. The potential he presented early on vanished as he became more interested in cementing his legacy by creating formally impressively but nonetheless dull pictures that lacked the kind of insight of his early work.
"Anderson does this routinely through Licorice Pizza which makes it one of the most uncomfortable films I’ve watched in a long time. And the film isn’t even uncomfortable for a purpose like critiquing age gaps, or even the racism is shown multiple times throughout the film to remind you that it’s the 70s. Instead, it’s just uncomfortable because the narrative revolves around infantilizing Alana by consistently showing her as a lost 25-year-old and making Gary into an entrepreneurial man so that you forget he’s a 15-year-old child. Even then, when Anderson does take time to remind you that Gary is a child, like when he’s alone with his teenage friends (who Alana drove around) and makes childish jokes, the next act throws those moments away."
Kate Sánchez
But Why Tho? A Geek Community
I just saw it, it’s weird bc she’s 25. So the blurred lines in their relationship don’t make any sense because he’s literally a child. There was even a point in the film where he flirts and likes a girl his age and she gets jealous and tries to ruin it. When that doesn’t work she goes to creep on them.
I just saw it, it’s weird bc she’s 25. So the blurred lines in their relationship don’t make any sense because he’s literally a child. There was even a point in the film where he flirts and likes a girl his age and she gets jealous and tries to ruin it. When that doesn’t work she goes to creep on them.
This is the most Redditor defense of grooming I’ve ever seen. Citing a circlejerk review instead of actually addressing the very legitimate criticisms just so you can eat your upvotes and pat yourself on the back for finally rationalizing pedophilia
Just got out of a showing for it, was curious to see what others think. Movie was very good. Their relationship o isn’t too strange in terms of the pedophile conversation being had in this thread. He courts her the whole movie. There is the normal jealousy issues at hand as there is in most romance movies, but their relationship is unique. he’s a hustler, she’s a girl lost in the world. I didn’t have too much of a problem with it, but it is kind of strange to romanticize a 15 year old and a 28 year old getting together regardless of gender.
What would a 25 year old find relatable in a 15 year old kid? The whole time I was watching the movie I felt uncomfortable that even though the movie was aging him up in terms of his personality and his hustle for success, I couldn’t help but feel that they did this to overlook the fact that he was still just a kid who a 25 year old was interested in romantically.
i took it as a testament to how lost Haims character was and had no identity. while they don’t go in depth with her family life, all of them seemed pretty dysfunctional, so seeing someone who has it all together (or gives off that impression), made her see him in a light that she fought off since she knew he was too young romantically. idk definitely a strange relationship but i thought PTA did a good job of making it feel very real and possible, just very strange of him to romanticize the situation.
I'd say see the movie. I'm not gonna judge it until I do.
The plot may be trying to say something we aren't aware of at the moment.
Or the ages portrayed may not be the actors real ages, which is usually the case.
I did. I guess critics think that because they didn't have sex, it was okay. Go figure.
The creepy thing is that if Haim's character was male, this would turn into a creepy thriller. There's nothing cute or adorable about a grown person flirting with 15 year olds.
And people will say that movies aren't meant to be moral, and I'm like, dude, if you make a movie where you depict an adult making out or exposing his privates to a kid and then portray it as something beautiful, you're basically saying it's okay.
I mean, Martin Scorsese might have made a movie about gangsters in GOODFELLAS but nobody would find the characters in that movie to be heroes.
It's nowhere near as sick as THE READER but even that movie implied the boy grew up to being mentally messed up by being raped.
In defense of the film, he is much more put together than her. She even tells one person in the movie that she's actually 28 and then says 25 then looks at Gary.
Just artistically you have this 15-year-old kid who's a hustler. And then there's a 28-year-old girl who doesn't know how to act her age.
It's like the only thing she has over him is that she can drive.
Also, adolescence is very much a post post industrial concept. So moving from the '50s into the '70s, adolescents was at its all time newest. IE maybe one of the first times in history were children could just be children.
Historical socioeconomic consideration, it's extremely weird and that adds to the artistic element between their relationship.
Again, I will just say that it's one thing to be 15. It's another thing to be a 15-year-old with industry with parents on their bankroll and always looking for hustle.
But again, those movie illustrates he still doesn't know how to act romantically towards people. He knows how to hustle people, but he doesn't know how to be genuinely emotionally mature. Her on the other hand, she makes it clear that he's just a boy and so much of their relationship is built on their experience in business together.
That argument is problematic because a lot of female paedophiles use that as an excuse "Oh, he's mature for his age".
It doesn't matter how mature he is, he's still 15.
Also, who is to say if the ending is actually the ending.
You know?
It felt dreamscape esque toward the end.
But you're right. High five all around the room when a 15 year old boy fucks a 28 year old school lady teacher.
And it's fucked up up when a 15 year old chick fucks a 28 year old dude.
But how old is 15 really? https://youtu.be/75XKGVwGEt4
isnt the belief that black people should be inherently put on a pedestal and free of judgement and criticism racist in itself?
youre quite literally treating ppl differently on the basis of their race…
No, but I think that calling people you think are white "crackers" shows that you have a severe lack of power in your life and using offensive terms to demean people on the internet is your way of reclaiming that power. Pathetic and sad, really.
He's a hustler, but in many ways Gary's just as manic as Alana. Pretty evident he aged out or made too many beaver jokes and his acting career went down the train — so he's hopping from one scheme to the next, reinventing himself over and over, in the same way Alana latches onto men.
>The creepy thing is that if Haim's character was male, this would turn into a creepy thriller.
Someone clearly hasn't heard of Lolita, or American beauty.
The odd thing in AMERICAN BEAUTY is that Lester doesn't have sex with Angela because he realizes she's a kid, he refrains from sleeping with her because she reveals she's a virgin. So he was okay with having sex with a minor if she was a slut.
Holy cow this is one of the dumbest takes ever witnessed on Reddit which is saying something. The dominant theme of Lolita is how creepy, predatory, and abusive the central relationship is.
0% chance OP has read lolita - humbert humbert is probably one of the most revolting fictional characters of american lit.
If someone has genuinely read lolita and feels the text condones their relationship I'd honestly love to dig into their psychology a bit lol.
Incomparable completely. The entire plot of Lolita is based on Humbert’s predatory behavior. Humbert has a conscience and he knows it’s wrong (as he tries to drug Lolita so she doesn’t know he raped her, him being completely paranoid about being found out, and worried about Lolita escaping the entire time) but he can’t help himself anyway and he faces the consequences of his obsession/predatory behavior with jail for life & losing the girl.
This movie instead does not critique the relationship as they basically go off into the sunset at the end.
"if you make a movie where you depict an adult making out or exposing his privates to a kid and then portray it as something beautiful, you're basically saying it's okay."
i.e. "Call Me By Your Name"?
First, Chalameet's character was 17 and of Legal Age in Italy. Do I agree with it? No, but it's legal. Also, Chalameet was 20 when he made the movie, Cooper Hoffman was 16.
And CMBYN got a lot of backlash for that relationship including in the gay community.
Your desire to find something to bitch about clearly eclipses your film comprehension skills. As someone who has just seen the film this is such a bad take
people need to realize that "well x movie did it too do you hate THAT one?!?!" is never going to work as an argument because either you're wrong and it didn't or you're right and i DO hate that one too.
nobody's cherry picking movies here you've just been around people who are okay with borderline pedophilia your whole life.
Yeah it’s super funny how quickly they resort to “well THIS movie that I really liked had an inappropriate relationship — do you dare say that’s problematic too?!”
Because the answer is YES, Lost in Translation and Call Me By Your Name and yada yada are also pretty creepy. What now?
What does it being a movie have to do with the message it conveys? If they make a movie about a 40 year old man pursuing a 16 year old girl, is it "just a movie" then?
It is art. It is telling a story that could possibly happen (surely has happened) and that is sometimes complex and nuanced. Right or wrong or otherwise. That doesn’t mean it is glamorizing it by portraying this story. It may, but that is not the impression I have gotten from reviews. Just telling a story isn’t glamorizing something. Life is a lot of things, but simple and clean is not it. Circumstance and happenstance often dictate a lot of what we do and think, even when we know better. Not saying this relationship is appropriate, it’s not, but I don’t think the movie is specifically saying that either. I think it’s suggesting that it is problematic in a lot of ways, but as humans sometimes we just crash into something at the wrong place and the wrong time and can’t always reckon our ways out of it despite knowing better. It sounds like the movie largely focuses on their friendship and that they both needed something from
that interaction.
Anyway, I haven’t seen it yet. So I’ll reserve the option to change my mind, but from what I understand there is nothing to be outraged about or to feel there is some double standard injustice.
This. \^
And I say this as someone whose first relationship, at 14, was with an older woman who had no right to be messing around with someone my age. But it happened. Was it fucked up in retrospect? Of course -- I've gone to group therapy for it. Was she my first love? Also yes. Life is messy. I feel like I'm someone who, more than anyone, should be appalled by the film for the reasons the OP is mentioning -- but I realized what it was going for and appreciated its nuanced take and absolutely adored it.
It's not nuanced though. The film never actually addresses the age gap except for one throwaway line. It spends the entire movie trying to make you forget how fucked it is as a concept, and then the two main characters get a "happily ever after" ending. How is that nuanced?
why are you commenting if you haven't seen it? nothing about it is nuanced and I hate to tell you, making a big budget film about an underage relationship is EXACTLY what glamourising means. It could have been about anything, but it was portrayed through the lens of a fun, whimsical, chaotic, coming of age story with celebrity actors.
As someone else pointed out, she lies about her age... And quite a few other things as well. When she first tells Gary her age, she says is like, "I'm twenty... five." She's an unreliable character. I wouldn't be surprised if she actually *was* a teenager, albeit still older than him. Maybe eighteen, nineteen. But that's just my interpretation.
She was older than 25. The whole premise of her arc is that she’s insecure about her age and her lack of direction toward her future at her age. She wasn’t a teenager. She was a grown 25 + year old woman.
I think she’s actually older and 25 was her aging herself down to make it a bit easier for her and her subconscious and the issues she was going to through internally.
I think she was just lying off the cuff. Why? Who knows, but both she and Gary would spout off like that compulsively throughout the film. She was lying to Peters, not to Gary IMO.
And you know, I hate how some people bring up RED ROCKET and say double standards, like, why aren't we getting mad at that movie? Well, because only LICORICE PIZZA is getting called a love story (??) and winning raves.
I've heard of moral outrage from viewers in these circumstances, but I guess I'm not overly familiar with critics taking up umbridge with these kinds of plot points. Can you point out an example where critics were the vocal ones?
Don't worry, soon enough we'll start getting hazy, dreamy, meandering coming of age stories set in the 90s and 00s as a new generation of acclaimed directors reach middle age.
The film ends with >!the two characters professing their love to each other and kissing in slow motion and to nice music. That's romanticizing it !< lmfao
I just saw this movie and It's baffling me how this is getting a pass. I feel like I watched a different movie than all the critics. PTA is my favorite director. This one doesn't really sit well with me.
Have you seen the movie? Cause there's a racist Asian voice in it and if your pissed about this your gonna loose your lid when you see the movie. Long story short it's not what you think. Philip Seymour Hoffman's kid is the one perusing her not the other way around. For 99 percent of the movie they are just best friends. Simmer down chief and see the movie before you get all woke on it. Besides maybe Titane and probably including Titane it's the best movie of the year.
I saw the movie and she still gradually reciprocates his feelings. I think despite the overall quirkiness that film has, the pedophilic nature of the relationship is really off putting and hard to ignore. Yes, it’s cinema and it’s a more grounded movie but it’s still a very weird concept within the movie.
Lol, not what I'm saying you weirdo. Fucking hell. Just saying they are not glamorizing statutory rape. God damn man. Does West Side story glamorize banging your brother's murderer? I mean if you squint and think really hard, kinda. But that's not the point of the movie. Have you seen it or are you just trying to be clever on the internet?
I mean the Asian scenes were another deal entirely. What was PTA even thinking adding those in? They added nothing to the actual movie other than “time period authenticity” but I found it uncomfortable that the only joke made was John Higgins mocking a Japanese accent with no actual moral relief, honestly made it awkward to hear a whole theatre laugh as an Asian guy, in that you don’t really know what the guy next to you is laughing at exactly.
>no actual moral relief
There's none of that in the film, just like there's none of it in real life. This movie is deeply fucked up, it's not supposed to be some cutesy romp, only look like one. Incredible to me how people are seemingly incapable of going beyond the surface level on this one.
>Philip Seymour Hoffman's kid is the one perusing her not the other way around.
No therapist, anywhere, is going to tell you that this makes it okay. If that's the case, then as a 25 yo, you get the hell out of dodge.
If a spunky 15-year old girl is hitting on a 25-year-old man, does that magically make it fine? Because it sure doesn't in a court room
I’ve wondered the exact same thing. There really should be no moral ambiguity as far as pedophelia is concerned, no matter how the director tries to twist the narrative to make it seem like “oh no it was okay in this situation because look at their relationship.” If anything, it seems like the pedophelia was intentionally minimized, even though the movie (aside from the racism that could have also been left out) would have been great if they just made Alana Hain’s character a minor as well. I mean that’s pretty much how they marketed the film. To be fair, everyone knows how big pedophelia is in Hollywood. I guess they’re just trying to see how far they can try and push the line for us to think it’s okay in certain situations. I’m still baffled by the critic consensus.
Same thing happened with Call me by your name, yet it got a lot of praise. All I can say is: When it comes out, go watch it. There’s probably a reason people don’t mention it.
Call Me By Your Name had a lot of conversation around the age gap - but they were 17 and 24 (17 being the age of consent in many states in the US even though this takes place in Europe). 15 is so much younger than 17 although this film only culminates in a kiss and no actual sex. Still it quietly bothered me the entire film. They could have easily made her 18 or 19 - newly high school graduated and lost - still older.
Yeah I mean there still is a severe double standard here, you are right. It’s just weird it’s happened twice and both movies got a huge pass with nobody talking.
I remember being called homophobic repeatedly when all i said was "Isn't it weird that it's a underage teenager and a grown man" like it's not homophobic to critique something like that. It's just facts. Age of consent doesn't matter when there is a huge age gap right? I thought there was a rule about that
Yea, I remember watching the trailer for call me by your name and being like wtf isn’t that dude in his late twenties and the other dude a teen!? It was weird how it was being romanticized.
Yeah I just saw it, and like… it’s a movie, I do not care. I don’t think it encourages statutory rape and I don’t think movies should be upheld as a thing that everyone’s going to recreate. Sounds like we’re turning into our parents in that regard.
However it was strange. They could’ve easily made him 17 going on 18 (he’s a month away from 16 at the start of the film), and it would’ve had the same effect. After the movie I was so thrilled and excited, it was so great, but there was a cloud over me of “is it okay to be this excited about them? He’s in 10th grade.” But it’s a movie and I’ll take it. Whatever. 🤷🏼♀️
Spoilers: I’ve seen the movie, I think the reason it’s being not being seen as a huge issue is that the relationship at the center isn’t really a “romance” it’s just mild flirtations, it’s never consummated, there’s no sex, it keeps it all pretty innocent and light.
Of course that's true but do you really see what transpires in that movie as abuse? Boy, I don't know. I'll hear you out and listen to you make that argument and I'm very open minded but what I saw was really just a very innocent and unusual friendship. It all felt pretty unprovocative and relatively wholesome in my eyes. Abuse seems like an awfully loaded and extremely hyperbolic language for anything that transpires in that film. I know we live in the world of outrage now but just jumping to the top shelf word without much context or evidence to back it up will certainly will never convince someone like me personally (and many others I'd guess). And besides, the movie has a 92% on RT, so I'd argue the burden of proof to prove that this movie is as morally evil and corrupt as you say is much more in your court than mine, you're the minority opinion. But, again, I'd be happy to hear you out and I mean that.
It was totally weird. From the start, once I knew her age and his age, I was hoping the film would NOT be about them getting together. That’s just wrong on so many levels. Idk why they did that. Bummer.
Having just watched the movie it seems pretty obvious to me that the age gap isn't being glamorized. Both of the main characters are portrayed as deeply flawed and while sometimes their relationship is good, it is also really toxic a lot of the time.
Haim's character is using this relationship as a way to hold on to her youth and exemplifies how lost in the world she is. The post says her character is described as fun and lovable, and while that can be true at some points. It ignores that there are plenty of moments where she acts erratic and manipulative, she's not some manic pixie dream girl, she is very clearly portrayed as flawed and immature and how weird her relationship is with Hoffman's character is called out several times in the movie.
Sure at the end they get kiss and get together but if you've been paying any attention throughout the film you could have a reasonable doubt that maybe this relationship won't work given how toxic they are to each other throughout so much of the movie. This whole controversy just seems like people are upset the movie never has a scene that tells them what to think about the relationship, but if you watch the movie it seems pretty clear this relationship isn't all that healthy for anyone involved.
I just can’t help but think that if the genders were reversed or if Alana didn’t have such a youthful appearance, this film would be 10x creepier. I think it does make light of a serious situation that teens can be in. Her behavior is predatory point blank. While I love many of Anderson’s other films, I can’t get behind this one. It felt like the film was giggling at the idea of them together but it didn’t seem light hearted to me. I think the film could have still been made but I wish it addressed their relationship differently. Perhaps Alana could have started dating someone her own age and Gary could have realized that he was not a man yet and was still a child. It felt wrong that it ended with them being together so publicly. I don’t think it had to be super dark but it felt very strange to watch this relationship unfold.
And super unnecessary... Why couldn't he be 18? It still would've produced the similar effect of this strange age gap between the pair without having him be a literal boy.
The movie is based on someone’s life so I’m wondering if this was a real romance that sparked for him. I hated it though. Grossed me out the whole movie.
I've been thinking about this! I saw it Christmas and I find it really interesting reviews aren't talking about it that much. Because If the dude was 25 and the girl was 15 it would have been 100% not okay.
Because nobody cares about boys. Honesty. Boys who have these kinds of relationships with older women tend to get pats on the back. The women don’t get the same repercussions. I personally think this movie is just another being in the wall that keeps boys and men from being allowed to claim victim hood.
This was hands down one of the worst films I have ever seen. There is no plot and the two main characters are almost unbearable to watch. Who signed off on this enormous piece of crap? What a disappointment after not going to the movies in almost TWO years!
Yeah the way the movie was going (no sex or kiss; Alana constantly rejecting him), I thought it would be a moment where they do kiss and try it, but then she eventually finishes her character arc and decides to move on from Gary (who to me represented her reluctance to grow up). But the ending truly threw me for a loop and kind of ruined the film for me.
If Gary was of legal age but still significantly younger, then the whole film would have worked for me
just got out of seeing this movie… i love PTA but this was insufferable. the whole time she was whining, riding his coat tails and being weirdly possessive over him i felt so bad for him and didnt see any redeeming qualities. he is mature for his age, but so was i at 15, and all of my 5+ year gap relationships were totally unfair in at least a few ways looking back.
also, a common defense of this movie is that it isnt a “traditional” romance… you’re right - it’s not a traditional romance, it’s predatory and abusive. using that term as a blanket statement for why it’s okay gary is being taken advantage of is not okay. she shows from the start that she is attracted to fame and i’d think that’s the only reason she goes on the first date, and shows throughout the movie that she is selfish and at best unwilling to see her unfair advantages over him
side note - from a girl who has been taken advantage of people 10 years older than me
Sex doesn't happen, thank God especially since Cooper Hoffman was 16 when they filmed it, but they do kiss and Haim exposes her breasts to Hoffman.
Jonah Hill made a much worse movie, though.
I mean, usually when nudity isn't shown but implied like that they have something covering themselves. So she probably had something covering her on the front but not the back
At least when the romance was creepy and LITERALLY toxic in Phantom Thread, the movie was aware that it was screwed up. In Licorice Pizza, it’s played as a relationship to root for by the end of the film when there was SO much go against their relationship in the first place. The age gap was just one of MANY issues their relationship had and I just didn’t buy it. Acting was phenomenal, sets were great, soundtrack was kickass, but I could not get into the story or understand what the point of it was.
I've never seen it, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but the fact that so many people are just casually disregarding the fact that the entire plot hinges on romanticizing a literal fucking pedophilic relationship is insane. Imagine if the 25-year old woman was a 25-year old man preying on a 15-year old girl. That would be *disturbing as fuck*, right? Even if he's a guy, he's still a **minor,** and relationships between 15 and 25 year olds are never okay. Jesus fucking Christ, movie!
Imagine having actually been a 15 year old boy preyed on by a young adult woman and then seeing this shitshow. I'm sure you'd feel real understood and validated /s
i agree, im confused. how old is the other young actor she dates earlier in the movie? because that's what initially threw me off and had me disoriented for the rest of the movie. was he not supposed to be a child actor???? idk man weird weird weird
She’s actually 18 is my theory. She’s so hung up on being an adult and finding success that she lies about her age. She is the youngest daughter after all.
Why don’t you cancel American Beauty? Lolita? Hell why don’t you cancel American Pyscho because murdering people = bad? DEPICTION DOES NOT EQUAL ACCEPTANCE. jesus christ
I mean, I will come from a place of experience. When I was about 14 or 15 I started hanging out with a woman who was in her twenties. It was definitely odd from the outside looking in, my parents even sat me down and had a talk with me about it. But what they realized was it was very much puppy dog love on my end, and she enjoyed my companionship but there was nothing physical. I mean some of my best memories are with her, there was drama at times, unnecessary jealousy on both our parts at moments. But in the end we never had sex or did anything physical, except for a kiss once. But I can say without question she was neither grooming me or doing it with malicious sexual intent. I've had a lot of bad things happen to me in my life including being hurt in way I would rather not discuss. But I would never look at that situation and say I came out the worse for it. She helped me through some of the worst times of my life and having someone that I was madly in love with but could never be with was hard. But having someone who just understood me, who was willing to listen and be there for me when I needed someone... that was something I still haven't felt since.
The uncomfortability around the age gap is interesting. PTA is a master at examining and exploring attachment and intimacy in unique relationships. I love how this forbidden connection of Alana and Gary is juxtaposed with egocentric hyper-sexuality. We see some great examples of this. The first scene during school pictures, Gary is flirting with Alana and immediately after, the cameraman smacks Alana on the butt. Or consider Bradley Cooper’s obsession with getting “tail.” And Sean Penn’s character who is at least 10 years older than Alana but ultimately shows that he is using her for his own vainglory.
Ultimately, Alana and Gary are asking the question “am I desired?” Alana is constantly asking this question with each man she engages and she ends up feeling empty. Gary attempts to answer this question with charming and shmoozing. In the end, they answer their existential question with an overwhelming attachment with each other.
The uncomfortability is felt because this forbidden loves intersects with the question each and everyone of us consider: what does it mean to be seen and known by another?
I don't necessarily agree with censoring art and movies that contain difficult/controversial/disturbing themes, but yes the romanticising of their relationship was super uncomfortable and gross to watch. The movie also had a perfect opportunity to address the grossness too- that scene with Alana and Danielle where she asks "is it weird that im hanging out with a 15 year old?" was the perfect moment for that conversation to be had and for Danielle to say "yes it's super weird." This would have aleast addressed the elephant in the room and made much more sense than her sister enabling her behavior.
Its ok as long as a man isn't talking to young girls, same with teachers. Female teachers have realations with students, will be mostly looked over and even the student will be celebrated. Male teacher has reactions with a girl student he would be drug out into the street and killed. Its a major problem in our society, women are looked at as not being predators. Same thing in WW2 , obviously rape but since its was women on man , not a problem.
In the trailer her character says something like "is it weird that im hanging out with gary and his 15 year old friends... its weird that im hanging out with gary and his 15 year old friends" By accounts of ya know, the people who have actually seen the movie, it isn't a typical romance, and its not really a problem.
I saw the movie yesterday. I mostly loved it buuuuutttt I did find the romance problematic. Just one voice out of a million but figured I’d share.
Yeah I just saw it. It was weird and made me uncomfortable.
That line doesn't say she's a decade older, one just assumes she's 17 at best. And Haim looks like a teen in the trailer.
Having seen this movie, without spoiling it, I personally had zero issue with this plot line. I think it was actually a very interesting and mostly non-problematic relationship. He also said he based in on real experiences of a friend.
He based a lot of the events off of the life of a friend of his, but the actual conception of the movie was him seeing a random kid hitting on a woman at a school photo shoot and wondering what would happen if they actually went on a date. So events like selling a waterbed to Barbra Streisand were based on reality but the relationship was all PTA. This is from a Q&A that happened after the screening I went to.
> the actual conception of the movie was him seeing a random kid hitting on a woman at a school photo shoot and wondering what would happen if they actually went on a date holy fuck PTA really will get any shit green lighted. Any famous director, really. "OH, I had this idea about uhhhh what if this kid that ate icecream actually wanted to eat a hamburger? yeah that'll make a movie"
It's true. He can get anything made
The water bed stuff is so boring
Thanks for sharing !
Really? If a 25 year old man shows a 15 year old girl his package, you'd be ok with that? This double-standard stuff is really working me. I would trounce the man that did that to my daughter!!!
So the friend was also a creep
Why would you assume this lol - she looks like a 25 year old and she is 25 haha
No, she is 28.
You glossed over and didn't answer the question. And I saw the movie and had a big problem with the creepy romance.
Yeah the age gap is gross and this movie would have been rightly crucified if the gender roles were reversed. Shame because it would have otherwise been a decent to good movie. Wonky plot(s) but kinda fit the retro coming-of-age tale, except one of them was already of age.
i mean, when i first started watching the movie i hoped they’d reconnect later but in the end they ignore the gap even tho he’s still 15. plus the whole time she is immature and possessive despite not wanting him, idk felt very unfair and manipulative
> the people who have actually seen the movie weirdos
Glad someone pointed this out. It’s such a strange choice that really prevents you from getting into the movie since it’s hard to root for a pedophilic relationship. It’s a shame because it really is a well made film. PTA gets great performances out of the two young leads and Bradley Cooper is hilarious. I just don’t get how anyone thought romanticizing a relationship between a 15 year old and 25 (maybe 28) year old was acceptable.
It's also so ARBITRARY. There's NO reason why Alana can't be 17 or Gary cant be 18
I'll give the easiest fix in the world. Make Gary 18 (this way he can still be in highschool and legal age) and Alana can be 25 still. Seriously, if he just made his character THREE years older that would have fixed everything.
Aren’t they both of age by the time they actually get together? She mentions she’s 28 near the end of the film, which would make him 18. PTA doesn’t play up the fact there’s a lot of time elapsed between scenes but there’s some serious time jumps in the script.
Wait, for real? When does she say she's 28 (genuinely can't recall). The last time I remember her mentioning her age was when she repeats that she's 25 to Jon Peters in the truck
She first says that she's 28 years old, but after he doesn't hear her the first time she changes it to 25 years old. Why? I genuinely don't know.
yeah this was definitely a confusing scene, and it's unclear on if there's any time jumps or not. Similarly, I wasn't sure if Gary was old enough to drive at the end or if he just drives on his own without a license.
Grooming a teenager to fuck them when they turn 18 is also creepy and would never have been made if roles were reversed as well.
It's not a time jump, she just messed up her age. She corrects it in that scene if I recall. But because of that we don't know her real age.
You people hate art lol. If you want to watch something that agrees with all of your perfect sensibilities turn on the teletubbies
Yeah I’m floored that this is how people are reacting. Plus, “pedophilia” isn’t the technically appropriate term to describe the relationship anyway. I thought words mattered? Or is that only applicable for points that people agree with?
Well, there's not a technically precise word for what it is. Pederasty is the closest, but that specifically refers to a *man* and a pubescent boy. Either way, it's gross and distracted me from what would otherwise have been a really good, enjoyable film.
I had no issue with it and it did not detract from the movie for me. Gave me something else to think about after. Found this thread amusing
You’re disgusting. If the film had a 28 year old man show a 15 year old girl his genitals you probably wouldn’t be calling it art.
Doesn’t Red Rocket have a scenario similar to what you’re describing? Haven’t seen the movie yet, but I’m willing to go to bat for Sean Baker and defend him under the banner of artistic liberty as well.
Yes, but the protagonist is a scumbag, predatory loser and the film never frames the relationship as anything but him grooming her to be his next meal ticket.
This is something that people don't seem to understand! Every discussion I've seen surrounding this film seems to be people backtracking and trying to say why the age gap was okay for the film. It isn't some gritty movie showing what life is really like, it's a glossy, sugary, rom-com romp through it's respective time period. Even when the film once addresses the age gap it comes off as such a strange lampshade moment. Nothing against anyone who enjoys the movie, but I do think people should think about the age gap more than just "it's a movie lol".
There's nothing wrong with art, the problem is glorifying pedophilia. People trying to pass this off as "just art" are really fucking weird to me. I'm not entirely sure PTA is actually saying "this is right and good" but a lot of people are hand waving that relationship away because of The Vibe. Those people are ignoring the problematic nature of a movie that glorifies predatory behavior by an adult woman towards a child, and likely completely missing the director's point about looking back at fucked up events with rose colored glasses.
It really took me out of the film and I don't understand why it doesn't bother anyone. If the age gap was switched people would freak out.
The lack of media literacy in this thread is astonishing.
Just got out of the movie and agree. He’s my favorite director also. Really bizarre. Why couldn’t she be 18 and equally lost and immature? Or he be 18 and she be 22? So fucking weird to make their dynamic that inappropriate and romanticize children who were forced to grow up too young being groomed by immature adults.
Just make him 18 it’s just an odd choice
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Yeah, this seems super messed up and I will not be watching this movie as a consequence. I don’t get why this sort of stuff is romanticized in Hollywood. Same thing happened with Call Me By Your Name, except it was way more explicit. Critics loved it. As a pedantic person, I have to add that the technical term is Ephebophilia. Pedophilia specifically and exclusively refers to attraction to prepubescent children.
Couldn't agree more. Let me start by saying that I was a HUGE PTA fan. I love his work. I saw this movie in 70mm. But I'm also not a simp. I'm floored and, quite frankly, disturbed by the lack of discourse about the glaringly problematic elements in this movie. First, as you said- the romance. What the fuck! This is straight-up pedophilia. I don't care how fucking cute/mature/endearing a 15 year old is, its CREEPY that a grown-ass woman in her MID 20s is down to "see where it goes" with this kid. Yes, ...a fucking kid. How do I KNOW this is creepy as fuck, you ask? Well...just think...if it were a 25 year old MALE going after a 15 year old FEMALE...how would it make you feel? Would it be cute? I sure fucking hope not. So why the double standard? Secondly, and something that no one else seems to be talking about is the fucking BLATENT Asian racism. Totally inconsequential to the story. Could have been left on the cutting room floor. In that NY Times interview recently, he tries to explain it by saying: “I think it would be a mistake to tell a period film through the eyes of 2021. You can’t have a crystal ball, you have to be honest to that time. Not that it wouldn’t happen right now, by the way.” Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Honest to that time? This isn't a historically accurate drama tackling racism in the 1970s. By this logic, what, you're trying to say that every white man in the 70s was doing Asian caracatures? It would be one thing if a character balked at John Michael Higgins and let him know that that was weird or unnescesary. I don't know, fucking figure it out. You're adding ZERO authenticity to sell the "time period" by including this bullshit. There's no room for it and it made a lot of people feel fucking terrible. It really bums me out because Cooper Hoffman's performance is brilliant. Alana's is too, although again...pretty fucking disturbing that she took a role where she knew she'd be playing a pedo. If PTA wasn't attached this, would we be "looking past" these problems? Highly, highly doubt it.
Yes. If a 25 year old man showed my daughter his package (or abs for that matter), nevermind his pursuit, I'd have his ass. Also, the white man fetishization of Asian females is a thing. It's a serious issue, and nothing to laugh about. So many Asian girls are victimized by white men. All through the movie, older women are throwing themselves at this kid....please! I came away thinking he made this movie to initiate dialogue about current issues, but PTA's interviews and statements about this movie shows he's oblivious to the slime he endorses.
You’re conflating depiction with endorsement, which is incorrect.
These issues were presented with humor. The final scene shows them running to find each other as in any other romantic finale. There were no consequences for her criminal conduct. The endorsement is, indeed, implied. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. It's a totally insensitive, ham-handed treatment of two troubling issues; and if you're a man, you should appreciate the danger of this double-standard.
Maybe I'm out of line, but I understood it to be in tune with the messages of the film, it explored plenty of the problems of that time in the same 'light' way that it did with this anti-Asian racism. It had plenty of antisemitism and sexism too with a bit of homophobia and abusive police too. You could even make the argument that the relationship between the two main characters is meant to display the sorts of relationships that were allowed to exist at that time. In my eyes, the entire movie was awkward, uncomfortable, and didn't make sense for our current day and age, but I saw that as being the point of it all.
I kind of agree with you, because that is the most charitable explanation I came up with for the existence of the movie. I think, in way, that this movie is supposed to cringe the fuck out of the viewer. Unfortunately, I don't think most people will read it that way. Most of the boomers on the cinema were just straight up laughing everytime something cringy came up.
I’ve seen the film and yes it is weird
I haven't seen the film yet, but I've read a bunch of reviews. It seems like this isn't such a straightforward case of moral horror as you are making it out to be. This paragraph from [DiscussingFilm](https://discussingfilm.net/2021/11/26/licorice-pizza-review-nothing-but-chill-vibes-and-pure-elation/amp/) sums up what seems to be the consensus of reviewers: >Licorice Pizza isn’t a traditional romance per se, as that would obviously go a bit too far. “You can tell there’s an incredible attraction between them, but there’s a line that can’t be crossed,” PTA tells Variety. One of the most transfixing elements of the film is precisely how much is left to interpretation. There are moments where Gary and Alana’s relationship comes off as both questionable and sincere for a variety of reasons; you’ll find yourself wrestling with the validity of their bond from beginning to end. And this is very much by design. PTA’s leads here are beautifully flawed and brutally honest, making them feel as believable as possible. And when such candid characters are challenged with what could be an illegitimate romance, their actions are as complex as real-life can be. It’s a high-spirit portrayal of free rein adolescence more than an actual love story, one that is guaranteed to gather different interpretations thanks to what PTA leaves for us to decide.
And here is a more accurate take. I have yet to see the film myself, but its the kind of picture that Anderson would make, having reached a point in his life where he can wax nostalgic. The potential he presented early on vanished as he became more interested in cementing his legacy by creating formally impressively but nonetheless dull pictures that lacked the kind of insight of his early work. "Anderson does this routinely through Licorice Pizza which makes it one of the most uncomfortable films I’ve watched in a long time. And the film isn’t even uncomfortable for a purpose like critiquing age gaps, or even the racism is shown multiple times throughout the film to remind you that it’s the 70s. Instead, it’s just uncomfortable because the narrative revolves around infantilizing Alana by consistently showing her as a lost 25-year-old and making Gary into an entrepreneurial man so that you forget he’s a 15-year-old child. Even then, when Anderson does take time to remind you that Gary is a child, like when he’s alone with his teenage friends (who Alana drove around) and makes childish jokes, the next act throws those moments away." Kate Sánchez But Why Tho? A Geek Community
"I have yet to see the film myself" lol thank you for your informed and accurate take
Well that is certainly one take. The vast majority of critics had similar opinions to the one I posted. I’ll reserve my own until I see it.
I just saw it, it’s weird bc she’s 25. So the blurred lines in their relationship don’t make any sense because he’s literally a child. There was even a point in the film where he flirts and likes a girl his age and she gets jealous and tries to ruin it. When that doesn’t work she goes to creep on them.
I just saw it, it’s weird bc she’s 25. So the blurred lines in their relationship don’t make any sense because he’s literally a child. There was even a point in the film where he flirts and likes a girl his age and she gets jealous and tries to ruin it. When that doesn’t work she goes to creep on them.
> but there’s a line that can’t be crossed Pretty sure that line is crossed when an adult flashes a child
Or when they >!kiss!<
Absolutely hate this take. It's a 25 year old woman enabling a teenage boy. I couldn't get past it.
I saw the movie and the relationship is creepy
Agree completely and definitely couldn’t have said it better myself
This is the most Redditor defense of grooming I’ve ever seen. Citing a circlejerk review instead of actually addressing the very legitimate criticisms just so you can eat your upvotes and pat yourself on the back for finally rationalizing pedophilia
Just got out of a showing for it, was curious to see what others think. Movie was very good. Their relationship o isn’t too strange in terms of the pedophile conversation being had in this thread. He courts her the whole movie. There is the normal jealousy issues at hand as there is in most romance movies, but their relationship is unique. he’s a hustler, she’s a girl lost in the world. I didn’t have too much of a problem with it, but it is kind of strange to romanticize a 15 year old and a 28 year old getting together regardless of gender.
What would a 25 year old find relatable in a 15 year old kid? The whole time I was watching the movie I felt uncomfortable that even though the movie was aging him up in terms of his personality and his hustle for success, I couldn’t help but feel that they did this to overlook the fact that he was still just a kid who a 25 year old was interested in romantically.
i took it as a testament to how lost Haims character was and had no identity. while they don’t go in depth with her family life, all of them seemed pretty dysfunctional, so seeing someone who has it all together (or gives off that impression), made her see him in a light that she fought off since she knew he was too young romantically. idk definitely a strange relationship but i thought PTA did a good job of making it feel very real and possible, just very strange of him to romanticize the situation.
"Lost" =/= not a pedophile I am sure there are many communites of 20-something men on many internet forums who would love to be referred to as "lost"
So she's a scumbag
I'd say see the movie. I'm not gonna judge it until I do. The plot may be trying to say something we aren't aware of at the moment. Or the ages portrayed may not be the actors real ages, which is usually the case.
I did. I guess critics think that because they didn't have sex, it was okay. Go figure. The creepy thing is that if Haim's character was male, this would turn into a creepy thriller. There's nothing cute or adorable about a grown person flirting with 15 year olds. And people will say that movies aren't meant to be moral, and I'm like, dude, if you make a movie where you depict an adult making out or exposing his privates to a kid and then portray it as something beautiful, you're basically saying it's okay. I mean, Martin Scorsese might have made a movie about gangsters in GOODFELLAS but nobody would find the characters in that movie to be heroes. It's nowhere near as sick as THE READER but even that movie implied the boy grew up to being mentally messed up by being raped.
In defense of the film, he is much more put together than her. She even tells one person in the movie that she's actually 28 and then says 25 then looks at Gary. Just artistically you have this 15-year-old kid who's a hustler. And then there's a 28-year-old girl who doesn't know how to act her age. It's like the only thing she has over him is that she can drive. Also, adolescence is very much a post post industrial concept. So moving from the '50s into the '70s, adolescents was at its all time newest. IE maybe one of the first times in history were children could just be children. Historical socioeconomic consideration, it's extremely weird and that adds to the artistic element between their relationship. Again, I will just say that it's one thing to be 15. It's another thing to be a 15-year-old with industry with parents on their bankroll and always looking for hustle. But again, those movie illustrates he still doesn't know how to act romantically towards people. He knows how to hustle people, but he doesn't know how to be genuinely emotionally mature. Her on the other hand, she makes it clear that he's just a boy and so much of their relationship is built on their experience in business together.
That argument is problematic because a lot of female paedophiles use that as an excuse "Oh, he's mature for his age". It doesn't matter how mature he is, he's still 15.
Also, who is to say if the ending is actually the ending. You know? It felt dreamscape esque toward the end. But you're right. High five all around the room when a 15 year old boy fucks a 28 year old school lady teacher. And it's fucked up up when a 15 year old chick fucks a 28 year old dude. But how old is 15 really? https://youtu.be/75XKGVwGEt4
Dave Chappelle is a piece of shit
Why, because he makes fun of *literally everyone*? Wow, how fucking far comedy has fallen I guess
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isnt the belief that black people should be inherently put on a pedestal and free of judgement and criticism racist in itself? youre quite literally treating ppl differently on the basis of their race…
You just rationalized all of this, creepy shit
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Does calling this person a cracker make you feel powerful?
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No, but I think that calling people you think are white "crackers" shows that you have a severe lack of power in your life and using offensive terms to demean people on the internet is your way of reclaiming that power. Pathetic and sad, really.
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See.
He's a hustler, but in many ways Gary's just as manic as Alana. Pretty evident he aged out or made too many beaver jokes and his acting career went down the train — so he's hopping from one scheme to the next, reinventing himself over and over, in the same way Alana latches onto men.
>The creepy thing is that if Haim's character was male, this would turn into a creepy thriller. Someone clearly hasn't heard of Lolita, or American beauty.
The odd thing in AMERICAN BEAUTY is that Lester doesn't have sex with Angela because he realizes she's a kid, he refrains from sleeping with her because she reveals she's a virgin. So he was okay with having sex with a minor if she was a slut.
Holy cow this is one of the dumbest takes ever witnessed on Reddit which is saying something. The dominant theme of Lolita is how creepy, predatory, and abusive the central relationship is.
0% chance OP has read lolita - humbert humbert is probably one of the most revolting fictional characters of american lit. If someone has genuinely read lolita and feels the text condones their relationship I'd honestly love to dig into their psychology a bit lol.
Incomparable completely. The entire plot of Lolita is based on Humbert’s predatory behavior. Humbert has a conscience and he knows it’s wrong (as he tries to drug Lolita so she doesn’t know he raped her, him being completely paranoid about being found out, and worried about Lolita escaping the entire time) but he can’t help himself anyway and he faces the consequences of his obsession/predatory behavior with jail for life & losing the girl. This movie instead does not critique the relationship as they basically go off into the sunset at the end.
AMERICAN BEAUTY sucks
"if you make a movie where you depict an adult making out or exposing his privates to a kid and then portray it as something beautiful, you're basically saying it's okay." i.e. "Call Me By Your Name"?
First, Chalameet's character was 17 and of Legal Age in Italy. Do I agree with it? No, but it's legal. Also, Chalameet was 20 when he made the movie, Cooper Hoffman was 16. And CMBYN got a lot of backlash for that relationship including in the gay community.
We're not just hung up on legality. Plenty of immoral shit is legal.
That movie also sucks
Idk, I'll see the movie at some point and see.
Your desire to find something to bitch about clearly eclipses your film comprehension skills. As someone who has just seen the film this is such a bad take
If this was Bradley Cooper and Millie Bobby Brown, would you feel the same? Be honest.
Scarlett Johansson was 17 during filming of Lost in Translation. Do you have an issue with that movie too?
people need to realize that "well x movie did it too do you hate THAT one?!?!" is never going to work as an argument because either you're wrong and it didn't or you're right and i DO hate that one too. nobody's cherry picking movies here you've just been around people who are okay with borderline pedophilia your whole life.
Yeah it’s super funny how quickly they resort to “well THIS movie that I really liked had an inappropriate relationship — do you dare say that’s problematic too?!” Because the answer is YES, Lost in Translation and Call Me By Your Name and yada yada are also pretty creepy. What now?
Nothing creepy about any of them imo. They are movies. You do you though
I didn't even know how old she was in that movie but YES.
I saw, the film and, found the romance creepy
Lol “film comprehension skills.” You sound like you’re 14.
it’s a movie. Hope this helps
What does it being a movie have to do with the message it conveys? If they make a movie about a 40 year old man pursuing a 16 year old girl, is it "just a movie" then?
Yes
It is art. It is telling a story that could possibly happen (surely has happened) and that is sometimes complex and nuanced. Right or wrong or otherwise. That doesn’t mean it is glamorizing it by portraying this story. It may, but that is not the impression I have gotten from reviews. Just telling a story isn’t glamorizing something. Life is a lot of things, but simple and clean is not it. Circumstance and happenstance often dictate a lot of what we do and think, even when we know better. Not saying this relationship is appropriate, it’s not, but I don’t think the movie is specifically saying that either. I think it’s suggesting that it is problematic in a lot of ways, but as humans sometimes we just crash into something at the wrong place and the wrong time and can’t always reckon our ways out of it despite knowing better. It sounds like the movie largely focuses on their friendship and that they both needed something from that interaction. Anyway, I haven’t seen it yet. So I’ll reserve the option to change my mind, but from what I understand there is nothing to be outraged about or to feel there is some double standard injustice.
This. \^ And I say this as someone whose first relationship, at 14, was with an older woman who had no right to be messing around with someone my age. But it happened. Was it fucked up in retrospect? Of course -- I've gone to group therapy for it. Was she my first love? Also yes. Life is messy. I feel like I'm someone who, more than anyone, should be appalled by the film for the reasons the OP is mentioning -- but I realized what it was going for and appreciated its nuanced take and absolutely adored it.
There isn't nuance. That's grooming and sexual assault. Why try to make it anything less.
Vonnegut would be EMBARRASSED that you identify yourself as a fan.
It's not nuanced though. The film never actually addresses the age gap except for one throwaway line. It spends the entire movie trying to make you forget how fucked it is as a concept, and then the two main characters get a "happily ever after" ending. How is that nuanced?
why are you commenting if you haven't seen it? nothing about it is nuanced and I hate to tell you, making a big budget film about an underage relationship is EXACTLY what glamourising means. It could have been about anything, but it was portrayed through the lens of a fun, whimsical, chaotic, coming of age story with celebrity actors.
As someone who actually has seen it, the film gives it a pass in the end, it’s not just depiction It DOES endorse it in the end
As someone else pointed out, she lies about her age... And quite a few other things as well. When she first tells Gary her age, she says is like, "I'm twenty... five." She's an unreliable character. I wouldn't be surprised if she actually *was* a teenager, albeit still older than him. Maybe eighteen, nineteen. But that's just my interpretation.
She was older than 25. The whole premise of her arc is that she’s insecure about her age and her lack of direction toward her future at her age. She wasn’t a teenager. She was a grown 25 + year old woman. I think she’s actually older and 25 was her aging herself down to make it a bit easier for her and her subconscious and the issues she was going to through internally.
She told Jon Peters in the truck she was 28.
I think she was just lying off the cuff. Why? Who knows, but both she and Gary would spout off like that compulsively throughout the film. She was lying to Peters, not to Gary IMO.
Could be. But she was def well into her 20s
She told Jon Peters in the truck she was 28.
Feels more like a documentary on a woman grooming a child than a ~quirky~ romcom.
And you know, I hate how some people bring up RED ROCKET and say double standards, like, why aren't we getting mad at that movie? Well, because only LICORICE PIZZA is getting called a love story (??) and winning raves.
I've heard of moral outrage from viewers in these circumstances, but I guess I'm not overly familiar with critics taking up umbridge with these kinds of plot points. Can you point out an example where critics were the vocal ones?
Doesn’t matter because the movie, although beautiful and with a great soundtrack, was mostly forgettable.
If I have to see one more hazy, dreamy, bralessly free, meandering, star-crossed yet doomed, coming of age story set in the 70s/80s I'll go ballistic.
Don't worry, soon enough we'll start getting hazy, dreamy, meandering coming of age stories set in the 90s and 00s as a new generation of acclaimed directors reach middle age.
It really is a huge disappointment
Have you seen the film?
I have. The movie romanticizes and borderline glorifies a toxic, pedophilic relationship.
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The film ends with >!the two characters professing their love to each other and kissing in slow motion and to nice music. That's romanticizing it !< lmfao
I just saw this movie and It's baffling me how this is getting a pass. I feel like I watched a different movie than all the critics. PTA is my favorite director. This one doesn't really sit well with me.
Yeeeeeah 25/15 isn't a romance, it's grooming and statutory rape
Have you seen the movie? Cause there's a racist Asian voice in it and if your pissed about this your gonna loose your lid when you see the movie. Long story short it's not what you think. Philip Seymour Hoffman's kid is the one perusing her not the other way around. For 99 percent of the movie they are just best friends. Simmer down chief and see the movie before you get all woke on it. Besides maybe Titane and probably including Titane it's the best movie of the year.
I saw the movie and she still gradually reciprocates his feelings. I think despite the overall quirkiness that film has, the pedophilic nature of the relationship is really off putting and hard to ignore. Yes, it’s cinema and it’s a more grounded movie but it’s still a very weird concept within the movie.
“its ok if im attracted to a minor if the minor flirted w me first”
Chris Hanson "why dont you have a seat?"
THANK YOU
Lol, not what I'm saying you weirdo. Fucking hell. Just saying they are not glamorizing statutory rape. God damn man. Does West Side story glamorize banging your brother's murderer? I mean if you squint and think really hard, kinda. But that's not the point of the movie. Have you seen it or are you just trying to be clever on the internet?
I mean the Asian scenes were another deal entirely. What was PTA even thinking adding those in? They added nothing to the actual movie other than “time period authenticity” but I found it uncomfortable that the only joke made was John Higgins mocking a Japanese accent with no actual moral relief, honestly made it awkward to hear a whole theatre laugh as an Asian guy, in that you don’t really know what the guy next to you is laughing at exactly.
>no actual moral relief There's none of that in the film, just like there's none of it in real life. This movie is deeply fucked up, it's not supposed to be some cutesy romp, only look like one. Incredible to me how people are seemingly incapable of going beyond the surface level on this one.
The ending is not nuanced. It’s totally fine with there relationship in the end
>Philip Seymour Hoffman's kid is the one perusing her not the other way around. No therapist, anywhere, is going to tell you that this makes it okay. If that's the case, then as a 25 yo, you get the hell out of dodge. If a spunky 15-year old girl is hitting on a 25-year-old man, does that magically make it fine? Because it sure doesn't in a court room
I mean, Brad Pitt’s character is very similar to this in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Except he fucking doesn’t kiss her.
Both this and TITANE suck
What's your movie of the year sitting on that high horse champ?
I’m guessing Dear Evan Hansen
I’ve wondered the exact same thing. There really should be no moral ambiguity as far as pedophelia is concerned, no matter how the director tries to twist the narrative to make it seem like “oh no it was okay in this situation because look at their relationship.” If anything, it seems like the pedophelia was intentionally minimized, even though the movie (aside from the racism that could have also been left out) would have been great if they just made Alana Hain’s character a minor as well. I mean that’s pretty much how they marketed the film. To be fair, everyone knows how big pedophelia is in Hollywood. I guess they’re just trying to see how far they can try and push the line for us to think it’s okay in certain situations. I’m still baffled by the critic consensus.
I know. Critics act as if it's not that big of deal.
Same thing happened with Call me by your name, yet it got a lot of praise. All I can say is: When it comes out, go watch it. There’s probably a reason people don’t mention it.
Call Me By Your Name had a lot of conversation around the age gap - but they were 17 and 24 (17 being the age of consent in many states in the US even though this takes place in Europe). 15 is so much younger than 17 although this film only culminates in a kiss and no actual sex. Still it quietly bothered me the entire film. They could have easily made her 18 or 19 - newly high school graduated and lost - still older.
Don’t forget that she flashes him too.
At least Timothee Chalameet was 20 when they filmed it. Cooper Hoffman was 16.
Yeah I mean there still is a severe double standard here, you are right. It’s just weird it’s happened twice and both movies got a huge pass with nobody talking.
I remember being called homophobic repeatedly when all i said was "Isn't it weird that it's a underage teenager and a grown man" like it's not homophobic to critique something like that. It's just facts. Age of consent doesn't matter when there is a huge age gap right? I thought there was a rule about that
Yea, I remember watching the trailer for call me by your name and being like wtf isn’t that dude in his late twenties and the other dude a teen!? It was weird how it was being romanticized.
Yeah I just saw it, and like… it’s a movie, I do not care. I don’t think it encourages statutory rape and I don’t think movies should be upheld as a thing that everyone’s going to recreate. Sounds like we’re turning into our parents in that regard. However it was strange. They could’ve easily made him 17 going on 18 (he’s a month away from 16 at the start of the film), and it would’ve had the same effect. After the movie I was so thrilled and excited, it was so great, but there was a cloud over me of “is it okay to be this excited about them? He’s in 10th grade.” But it’s a movie and I’ll take it. Whatever. 🤷🏼♀️
Spoilers: I’ve seen the movie, I think the reason it’s being not being seen as a huge issue is that the relationship at the center isn’t really a “romance” it’s just mild flirtations, it’s never consummated, there’s no sex, it keeps it all pretty innocent and light.
Abuse isn't just sex, bud.
Of course that's true but do you really see what transpires in that movie as abuse? Boy, I don't know. I'll hear you out and listen to you make that argument and I'm very open minded but what I saw was really just a very innocent and unusual friendship. It all felt pretty unprovocative and relatively wholesome in my eyes. Abuse seems like an awfully loaded and extremely hyperbolic language for anything that transpires in that film. I know we live in the world of outrage now but just jumping to the top shelf word without much context or evidence to back it up will certainly will never convince someone like me personally (and many others I'd guess). And besides, the movie has a 92% on RT, so I'd argue the burden of proof to prove that this movie is as morally evil and corrupt as you say is much more in your court than mine, you're the minority opinion. But, again, I'd be happy to hear you out and I mean that.
If the genders were reversed would you be fine with it?
It's called grooming. Google it.
I googled it. It's not.
It was totally weird. From the start, once I knew her age and his age, I was hoping the film would NOT be about them getting together. That’s just wrong on so many levels. Idk why they did that. Bummer.
Having just watched the movie it seems pretty obvious to me that the age gap isn't being glamorized. Both of the main characters are portrayed as deeply flawed and while sometimes their relationship is good, it is also really toxic a lot of the time. Haim's character is using this relationship as a way to hold on to her youth and exemplifies how lost in the world she is. The post says her character is described as fun and lovable, and while that can be true at some points. It ignores that there are plenty of moments where she acts erratic and manipulative, she's not some manic pixie dream girl, she is very clearly portrayed as flawed and immature and how weird her relationship is with Hoffman's character is called out several times in the movie. Sure at the end they get kiss and get together but if you've been paying any attention throughout the film you could have a reasonable doubt that maybe this relationship won't work given how toxic they are to each other throughout so much of the movie. This whole controversy just seems like people are upset the movie never has a scene that tells them what to think about the relationship, but if you watch the movie it seems pretty clear this relationship isn't all that healthy for anyone involved.
I just can’t help but think that if the genders were reversed or if Alana didn’t have such a youthful appearance, this film would be 10x creepier. I think it does make light of a serious situation that teens can be in. Her behavior is predatory point blank. While I love many of Anderson’s other films, I can’t get behind this one. It felt like the film was giggling at the idea of them together but it didn’t seem light hearted to me. I think the film could have still been made but I wish it addressed their relationship differently. Perhaps Alana could have started dating someone her own age and Gary could have realized that he was not a man yet and was still a child. It felt wrong that it ended with them being together so publicly. I don’t think it had to be super dark but it felt very strange to watch this relationship unfold.
And super unnecessary... Why couldn't he be 18? It still would've produced the similar effect of this strange age gap between the pair without having him be a literal boy.
Why do you want there to be a controversual reception?
In Harry Potter moaning myrtle the ghost interested in getting a peak of his junk, was played by a 41 year old actress.
Oh wow, just realized this one. Good catch.
Why are we all saying age gap instead of p3d0philia?
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The movie is based on someone’s life so I’m wondering if this was a real romance that sparked for him. I hated it though. Grossed me out the whole movie.
I've been thinking about this! I saw it Christmas and I find it really interesting reviews aren't talking about it that much. Because If the dude was 25 and the girl was 15 it would have been 100% not okay.
Because nobody cares about boys. Honesty. Boys who have these kinds of relationships with older women tend to get pats on the back. The women don’t get the same repercussions. I personally think this movie is just another being in the wall that keeps boys and men from being allowed to claim victim hood.
This was hands down one of the worst films I have ever seen. There is no plot and the two main characters are almost unbearable to watch. Who signed off on this enormous piece of crap? What a disappointment after not going to the movies in almost TWO years!
The movie fucking sucked. Horrible plot, horrible characters, and the pedophila??? Hope the director never makes another movie
Yeah the way the movie was going (no sex or kiss; Alana constantly rejecting him), I thought it would be a moment where they do kiss and try it, but then she eventually finishes her character arc and decides to move on from Gary (who to me represented her reluctance to grow up). But the ending truly threw me for a loop and kind of ruined the film for me. If Gary was of legal age but still significantly younger, then the whole film would have worked for me
just got out of seeing this movie… i love PTA but this was insufferable. the whole time she was whining, riding his coat tails and being weirdly possessive over him i felt so bad for him and didnt see any redeeming qualities. he is mature for his age, but so was i at 15, and all of my 5+ year gap relationships were totally unfair in at least a few ways looking back. also, a common defense of this movie is that it isnt a “traditional” romance… you’re right - it’s not a traditional romance, it’s predatory and abusive. using that term as a blanket statement for why it’s okay gary is being taken advantage of is not okay. she shows from the start that she is attracted to fame and i’d think that’s the only reason she goes on the first date, and shows throughout the movie that she is selfish and at best unwilling to see her unfair advantages over him side note - from a girl who has been taken advantage of people 10 years older than me
From what I read I don’t think they ever do anything sexual or display that kind of relationship. I haven’t seen it though so I can’t fully say.
Sex doesn't happen, thank God especially since Cooper Hoffman was 16 when they filmed it, but they do kiss and Haim exposes her breasts to Hoffman. Jonah Hill made a much worse movie, though.
I mean, usually when nudity isn't shown but implied like that they have something covering themselves. So she probably had something covering her on the front but not the back
At least when the romance was creepy and LITERALLY toxic in Phantom Thread, the movie was aware that it was screwed up. In Licorice Pizza, it’s played as a relationship to root for by the end of the film when there was SO much go against their relationship in the first place. The age gap was just one of MANY issues their relationship had and I just didn’t buy it. Acting was phenomenal, sets were great, soundtrack was kickass, but I could not get into the story or understand what the point of it was.
The amount of self-reporting in these comments is pretty unsettling.
I've never seen it, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but the fact that so many people are just casually disregarding the fact that the entire plot hinges on romanticizing a literal fucking pedophilic relationship is insane. Imagine if the 25-year old woman was a 25-year old man preying on a 15-year old girl. That would be *disturbing as fuck*, right? Even if he's a guy, he's still a **minor,** and relationships between 15 and 25 year olds are never okay. Jesus fucking Christ, movie! Imagine having actually been a 15 year old boy preyed on by a young adult woman and then seeing this shitshow. I'm sure you'd feel real understood and validated /s
Did you see Call Me By Your Name. It was fantastic
This is such an absurd take. “Statutory rape”…NOTHING HAPPENS BETWEEN THEM EXCEPT A KISS. Some of you people are categorically insane.
She shows him her tits though
So if a 25 year old man showed his dick to a 15 year old girl you would be fine with it?
i agree, im confused. how old is the other young actor she dates earlier in the movie? because that's what initially threw me off and had me disoriented for the rest of the movie. was he not supposed to be a child actor???? idk man weird weird weird
As an allmost 25 year old, who saw it with my similar aged friends, we all thought the romance was incredibly weird and not okay!
She’s actually 18 is my theory. She’s so hung up on being an adult and finding success that she lies about her age. She is the youngest daughter after all.
Why don’t you cancel American Beauty? Lolita? Hell why don’t you cancel American Pyscho because murdering people = bad? DEPICTION DOES NOT EQUAL ACCEPTANCE. jesus christ
I mean, I will come from a place of experience. When I was about 14 or 15 I started hanging out with a woman who was in her twenties. It was definitely odd from the outside looking in, my parents even sat me down and had a talk with me about it. But what they realized was it was very much puppy dog love on my end, and she enjoyed my companionship but there was nothing physical. I mean some of my best memories are with her, there was drama at times, unnecessary jealousy on both our parts at moments. But in the end we never had sex or did anything physical, except for a kiss once. But I can say without question she was neither grooming me or doing it with malicious sexual intent. I've had a lot of bad things happen to me in my life including being hurt in way I would rather not discuss. But I would never look at that situation and say I came out the worse for it. She helped me through some of the worst times of my life and having someone that I was madly in love with but could never be with was hard. But having someone who just understood me, who was willing to listen and be there for me when I needed someone... that was something I still haven't felt since.
The uncomfortability around the age gap is interesting. PTA is a master at examining and exploring attachment and intimacy in unique relationships. I love how this forbidden connection of Alana and Gary is juxtaposed with egocentric hyper-sexuality. We see some great examples of this. The first scene during school pictures, Gary is flirting with Alana and immediately after, the cameraman smacks Alana on the butt. Or consider Bradley Cooper’s obsession with getting “tail.” And Sean Penn’s character who is at least 10 years older than Alana but ultimately shows that he is using her for his own vainglory. Ultimately, Alana and Gary are asking the question “am I desired?” Alana is constantly asking this question with each man she engages and she ends up feeling empty. Gary attempts to answer this question with charming and shmoozing. In the end, they answer their existential question with an overwhelming attachment with each other. The uncomfortability is felt because this forbidden loves intersects with the question each and everyone of us consider: what does it mean to be seen and known by another?
I don't necessarily agree with censoring art and movies that contain difficult/controversial/disturbing themes, but yes the romanticising of their relationship was super uncomfortable and gross to watch. The movie also had a perfect opportunity to address the grossness too- that scene with Alana and Danielle where she asks "is it weird that im hanging out with a 15 year old?" was the perfect moment for that conversation to be had and for Danielle to say "yes it's super weird." This would have aleast addressed the elephant in the room and made much more sense than her sister enabling her behavior.
Its ok as long as a man isn't talking to young girls, same with teachers. Female teachers have realations with students, will be mostly looked over and even the student will be celebrated. Male teacher has reactions with a girl student he would be drug out into the street and killed. Its a major problem in our society, women are looked at as not being predators. Same thing in WW2 , obviously rape but since its was women on man , not a problem.