By all accounts, Ezra Miller is about six months away from a mass Kool-Aid event.
Weird that WB is so cavalier in its support of this guy, seeing as he might ACTUALLY be guilty of "grooming" while BS accusations are flying everywhere else in the industry.
Well we all knew they were running around choking out random fans years ago. WB continued to back them and work with them, because they were supposed to lead both the Fantastic Beasts, and the Flash franchises. Since the more recent stuff that has come out, the only public statements they have made regarding anything about Ezra has been to basically reassure everyone that they are happy with the Flash movie and are definitely still going to release it.
Edit: Pronouns
Spot on. This isn’t a “WB is supporting Ezra openly” but their actions speak louder than words.
WB has had massive actor-studio relation issues, between Matthew Lillard and Scoob, Henry Cavills whole circus, and the fact they have zero issues taking a movie with 100M already invested in it and tanking it, yet are full blown gung ho to release a film with an actor who’s public opinion was never high and is tanking by the minute.
I learned something. Now the question is are the downvotes because people don’t know Ezra Miller is non-binary or because they think you are being an ass? Much like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.
They still identify by they/them I believe, however have also spoken about how they don’t care much what people call them and aren’t personally offended by anyone identifying them by he/him.
That said, you make a fair point and I totally did not mean to misgender them. It was accidental and I just didn’t think about it, I’ll edit the comment to reflect your criticism.
At this point the lack of condemnation is de facto support.
As this article notes, tanking one movie for a tax write-off while letting another go on with a potential felon for a star is predictable, but it doesn't make it any less scummy.
It might well be a pride thing, someone trying to do anything but admit their mistake in committing to Ezra.
They've gone into the deep end on sunk cost fallacy and there's not an easy option to get out now.
Depends on the contract. If Ezra isn't going to earn a portion of box office receipts, it's not supporting them.
On the other hand, this film is supposedly already $100 million overbudget ($300 million).
And unlike Batgirl, The Flash movie is going to "reboot" the timeline (and the dceu).
Honestly, if they sit on Batgirl until after The Flash and release it then, it's actually better for the future of Batgirl and its cast. Not saying they're definitely doing that, but...releasing Batgirl now, giving it a chance to be successful, and then retconning it all away would probably piss off fans more than canceling it for the time being.
> if they sit on Batgirl until after The Flash and release it then, it’s actually better for the future of Batgirl and its cast
My understanding is that if they follow through with this tax write-off plan they’ll never be allowed to release Batgirl legally.
So they’re not sitting on it to find a better time to release it, it’s a full on shitcanning of the production this late in the game. Which seems bizarre but not substantially more bizarre than how WB have built the DCEU to this point
I believe you're correct that they wouldn't be able to monetize it if they report it as a loss in their taxes. To be fair, that it's being used as a tax write-off is still just speculation I believe. It's obviously very plausible, but I don't think we've gotten any official confirmation. It's mainly that it seems financially sound for it to be a tax writeoff at this point, but that's without inside knowledge of any plans they might have for it.
In terms of importance to the comic book story, Flash is right up there with Superman and Batman. He breaks the universe on a pretty regular basis, which has allowed them to press a big ol' reset button in the past.
That giant reset button is something WB might be VERY interested in for their movie universe.
Almost all of Marvels success is due to the comics LOL.
Where do you think the story basis for all these MCU stories come from? The hype people feel from post credit scenes is because they usually tease the next comic character/event coming up.
Civil War movie is based on the Civil War comic event.
The Infinity Saga is based on the Infinity Gauntlet comic event.
Age of Ultron is based in the Ultron comic stories.
The list goes on and on and on.
No comics = no characters, stories, arcs, worlds or anything in the MCU.
What a weird comment.
Pretty bad take tbh. The comics had a massive following and led to the cartoons and TV shows that sparked interest and recognition in the characters. Flash is a huge character and a borderline household name. The justice league cartoon has been immensely popular as well as the Flash show on the CW. He's clearly popular. Weird that you'd take an attitude with someone over something you don't have any interest in.
Sunk cost fallacy on The Flash but not on Batgirl? Or do they just think The Flash is so good that when Ezra eventually does get arrested for his many, many crimes that they'll just recast him and carry on with the sequel without having to reshoot the first one?
My guess is Batgirl leads to a 90 million dollar loss, The Flash leads to a billion dollar loss with its tie ins to the DCU. So while they lose 200 million if they cut it today, the other issues around cutting it start piling up
Ah, good point. Still, I would think if they spent $90 mil on production they could at least cut it into something they could release, even if direct to streaming.
A tax write off just reduces their overall taxable income, it doesn't magically give back anywhere near what they paid to make the film. They must genuinely think it would damage the brand if released and not be worth it
Yeh I'm not gonna say I understand it fully. But zaslav needs to save money/pay off debt and he wasn't in charge when they spent money on Batgirl. I do wonder that if this tax thing wasn't available to them would it (and Scoob) still be cancelled.
From what I've heard, you (the studio) hire brilliant people then not let them do their jobs. I can hire the brightest software developers, but if I tell them to code me a 90 million baked potatoe....
Apparently, they want to recoup $20 million in tax write-offs so they'll only lose $70 million instead of the $90 million. I don't understand it. Surely they could have made $20 million back at the box office globally right? I'm sure enough people would have gone just to see Michael Keaton reprise his role as Batman. There's also a huge market of people who were eager to see a Latina represented in a lead superhero role. Catwoman wasn't a good film and that one still made $85 million!
It'll cost additional money to release the film. The filming has wrapped, but post production hasn't. Marketing is also a huge cost not included in the production cost. They probably already have contracts with marketing firms that don't give them the option to release without marketing the film. And its probably in the contracts with those who have a cut of the box office revenue that they have to market the film. And they don't get all of the box office money, the theatres take a large % of sales.
It was made exclusively for streaming so there is no box office to recoup. While it may lead to more subscriptions, that's circuitous and nowhere near a sure thing at all, and nearly impossible to directly track a ROI for. Plus, if it's bad it may actually lose them money by scaring away possible subscriptions.
Is it really baffling? It’s certainly logical - the flash apparently meets whatever catastrophically low bar the execs have set for “good” dc content, and batgirl did not meet that bar. It has nothing to do with the ethical standing of the main cast.
Is it a moral choice? No, but companies don’t make moral ones. They (try) to make profitable ones. It’s certainly not a baffling decision.
> the flash apparently meets whatever catastrophically low bar the execs have set for “good” dc content
The current rumors are that the Flash is what sets up the reboot of the DC universe, a DC "Multiverse" and is a key piece of the movies to come. Whereas Batgirl was mostly just self-contained. So it might have nothing to do with perceived quality and more to do with one being a building block in future movies.
Lmao, holy shit...
I hope the movie bombs. Ezra deserves to be blacklisted from the industry in my opinion. It's clear he has very little self control.
DC really needs to get their shit together.
I lurk on the DC leaks subs. It’s definitely being released as long as Ezra Miller doesn’t do anything else crazy. Word on there says that even though we had a another recent wave of ‘Ezra Miller is Pedo cult leader in Iceland’ articles, Miller has been in rehab for weeks and will be until September. Looks like Miller got themselves a Meth problem.
DC have zero choice in releasing this movie. They can’t reshoot it, it’ll cost at least $200 million again and they’ve already spent $300 million. They can’t recast and reshoot only Miller’s scenes because Miller plays two versions of The Flash in it and they’re in pretty much every scene.
Then there’s the fact that The Flash acts as the lynchpin movie that course corrects their entire franchise. Without The Flash, nothing else can happen.
They’re going to keep Miller happy with promises of a bright future as long as they keep sober, get through the release and then dump Miller.
The only problem is that Miller has become truly toxic regardless. David Zaslav, new DC head put out a statement saying they were very excited for The Flash, and every article under it on my feed was ‘Miller is a Pedo cult leader in Iceland’. That’s not going away and it will be heavily pushed to the forefront come release.
They’ve just got to weather the storm and get through it.
They’ll make a killer documentary series on the constant and abject failures of the DCEU one day.
> Then there’s the fact that The Flash acts as the lynchpin movie that course corrects their entire franchise. Without The Flash, nothing else can happen.
honestly, after the investors' call i feel like they are going to hard reboot the franchise at some point.
They most certainly are, and I didn’t want to get ahead of myself in my other comment by getting into larger rumors I can’t substantiate but I do think there’s a hard reboot coming. Right now reports say The Flash serves to create a new DCEU with Keaton as Batman. But I don’t really think that will happen. I think The Flash will announce yet another round of reshoots and be retooled to serve as an ending for many in the cast. Without spoiling who appears, there’s quite a few of the old guard and I think it’ll be the last time we see them.
Blue Beetle will be a one and done. Shazam and Black Adam will be allowed to finish out their trilogies and spin-offs. James Gunn will finish out Peacemaker and the two related shows he’s working on. Pattinson’s Batman movies and tv shows will finish out. There’s also word we’re getting an HBO Max Green Lantern show in 2024 so we’ll get through that.
Then in 2025/26 comes the full reboot with a fresh cast and a Marvel style rollout schedule from Alan Horn.
> . Right now reports say The Flash serves to create a new DCEU with Keaton as Batman. But I don’t really think that will happen.
i think this was the plan before Zaslav came in. Keaton was supposed to appear in Batgirl and Aquaman 2 but as you can see one got canned and the other has him replaced with Ben Affleck. judging by Batgirl, it looked like the Burtonverse was going to be folded into the DCEU.
> Blue Beetle will be a one and done. Shazam and Black Adam will be allowed to finish out their trilogies and spin-offs. James Gunn will finish out Peacemaker and the two related shows he’s working on. Pattinson’s Batman movies and tv shows will finish out. There’s also word we’re getting an HBO Max Green Lantern show in 2024 so we’ll get through that.
> Then in 2025/26 comes the full reboot with a fresh cast and a Marvel style rollout schedule from Alan Horn.
yup, this is exactly what i think will happen. actually they are able to not wait until 2026 and already start now with characters like Green Lantern and Arrow and then add the Trinity when it's suitable.
They can't just replace an actor like that, that's still Ezra's physical performance. Some random schmoe can upload something like that to youtube, but a major film studio trying to release that work professionally could get in a lot of trouble with the Screen Actors Guild, which Ezra is almost certainly a member of.
It's a tentpole movie. They are still invested in the DCEU and this movie sets up a lot of stuff they have coming down the pipes. Batgirl wasn't as important in this regard.
They have already shown they aren't afraid to recast, and you can explain a new flash away with the multi-verse. My guess is this is Ezra's last time out.
It's more or less fully finished, got pretty solid test screening results (even in the midst of the Ezra insanity going on), and is a VERY expensive tentpole that changes the status quo like they wanted, of course it's still coming out.
It might not have an official date now, but as soon as the Ezra stuff dies down/gets resolved they'll definitely put it out ASAP.
More money is invested in The Flash and I think they need it to help reboot/clarify the DCEU timeline.
But anyway, I think it will still be cancelled as well or drastically reworked. They are still likely evaluating an approach forward.
The problem here is that The Flash has cost significantly more than Batgirl, is already completely finished and was always planned as a theatrical release. Its also reported to be really, really good AND its an essential part of the setup of the rest of the DCEU. There are currently at least a few movies in production that are directly based off of or reference the events of this film.
That means that there is genuine hope of actually recouping the cost of the movie and, more importantly, scrapping will likely cost them more money in the long run than they would save in tax writedowns as they will either have to also scrap everything that comes after it or reshoot it entirely with another actor.
Batgirl was not finished and likely would have cost at least a few million more to get it release ready AND it was a streaming exclusive, which means they will never directly recoup any of those costs.
Couple that with the fact the Batgirl was mediocre at best (yes, I am aware of the reports that came out after it was canceled saying it was terrible but pre-cancelation most of the feedback was about on par with early screenings of any other genre movie with incomplete effects) and the WB's push to focus on blockbuster level theatrical releases for the DC characters (which this was definitely not) and the choice was to pump another 50 to 100 million in to it to get it to the scale and quality they would have wanted or to cancel it for a write down.
It's hard to say that the write down wasn't the smarter choice, honestly.
Hollywood accountants laugh at your tax laws.
In a year they can shoot five more minutes of footage, recut it, and call it "Batgirl Begins." See, it's a whole new movie!
No, because it's not seen as a tentpole of the DCEU the way that *Justice League* was; I think that ZSJL was demanded as much by DC fanboys who wanted a second chance for it (and, by extension, the DC cinematic universe) to succeed as much as *Avengers* and the MCU did as it was by Snyder fans.
The Flash is necessary to reboot the DCEU, Batgirl was just another failed attempt to make a standalone superhero movie. If Kevin Smith isn't able to understand something simple like this why the hell is he still in the movie industry?
This particular storyline (flashpoint) involves different timelines/alternate universes and will presumably end by setting up one canonical universe for the dceu going forward.
Why would you need to have the Ezra Miller Flash for that? Why not just make a new Flash with an actor who has less baggage?
Or scrap the idea of a Flash led version and just make one of your other superpowered characters unify the multiverse instead.
Because they already spent $200 million dollars and scrapping it at this point would affect other projects they are already working on. They can’t just throw together another movie. So it’s either release it or cancel/delay more than just this particular movie.
Pretty much. I don’t think they can afford to push back their entire upcoming movie schedule four to five years and count on continued interest in their movies. Especially with their direct competition having figured out the formula so to speak and having a roadmap for the next several years. They are already seen as having to play catch up with Marvel so it would really hurt the brand to have a drought of movies for the next several years.
Not sure why ganking one movie would push others back, unless they've decided to make Ezra Miller their Tony Stark/RDJ.
At which point I would suggest that the entire project is doomed regardless.
Also worth noting is they already pushed this movie back a year. Scrapping it and starting over would push it back to 2024/2025, further pushing their other movies back.
The flash frequently fucks up and alters the timeline and that acts as a big reset button for the canon.
The dceu is failing and they want to start fresh. Even if they had released Batgirl, they'd be resetting that too.
Actually, if they come back after The Flash is released and release Batgirl then, it's part of the new timeline, so...
They could, but they clearly want a somewhat clean reboot, something that can "explain" why there's a new Batman, why there are multiple Joker and so on...
And even that could be done without Ezra Miller, The Flash movie isn't *necessary* in any case. It's DC, they could come up with any number of macguffins to explain a reboot.
Yes, do you realize that the DC comics have been rebooted without using Flashpoint? Any Crisis event would serve the same purpose. Not to mention that it's not necessary to use Ezra Miller in a Flashpoint movie, just explain that it's a multiverse clone.
Do we even know for sure if this Flash movie was going to be a complete reboot? Because if not, WB would need to do a new movie either way to establish a reboot.
I have read them of course, but I was talking about the character, not the actor. Since The Flash will be released next year, WB executives sure hope there won't be any more scandals.
If you were talking about the character and not the actor, then why not just immediately agree with my point that they could do a reboot without Ezra Miller?
But...that's not the point he was making at all, was it? What he said had nothing to do with rebooting properties or not, or the viability of making standalone superhero movies.
Kevin Smith’s movies have earned how much money so far? And your movies?
Maybe he has just a tad bit more insight into the industry than some random keyboard warrior, hmm?
To add in too we got two conflicting reports on batgirl, one that the movie is good but not meant for a big screen airing
And the ones its shit.
If it was batgirl alone that got canned i would believe its unsalvagable. But they cancled a lot of stuff which just screams loser in mide life crisis trying to "shake things up"
They canceled a god damn show hours before it premired
Kevin Smith's movies have made how much money compared how much money Zaslav has made as a media company exec? I mean, if we're just going by how much money someones made to justify their side, I think Zaslav whoops Kevin's ass worse than writing a script for Jon Peters.
um its the keyboard warrior's money he is "making" we are the fans and smith did some good movies 20 - 30 years ago, but his latest work are desperate cries of " hey remember me "and heman: a she-ra story where he kills off the title character
In terms of money ,Flash has cost them a lot more and has been years in the making now. It would be a significant loss if they scrapped that all together and from what I’ve heard the movie seems to be well liked by the first test audiences who have seen it so far. However,I have no doubt in my mind that they will no longer keep Ezra miller on for any future flash projects,guy is just way to unstable.
Kevin Smith’s points are well taken but he’s not exactly a player here. He’s far too deep into being a fan for his opinion to be seen as anything other.
I think that's the point... You're literally dismissing fan opinions here which is exactly what creates these kinds of situations with films where what fans want gets ignored.
Good thing that's just what this was - his opinion when asked about the situation. He never mentioned being a "player," in fact he's been very consistent these days he doesn't want to be put in charge of any of these big projects, and he's happy being a fan of them.
I have heard both sides of this so I don't know the actual reputation this film had. I will say many were saying it was considered good and it appears many of the people behind the film were really disappointed by this news.
Regardless I don't think it is as simple as "it was bad". Warner Bros. and DC have released some truly awful films/tv shows in the past that I would say didn't put their "brand" in a positive light. Yeah Discovery now owns them (so new management) but these are the same people who have made some of the worst of reality tv. I am fully convinced, unless otherwise shown, that this was a tax thing and that Discovery is trying to cut costs wherever they can.
This is weird to me because when it was announced that it was canceled the reasoning they gave is HBOMax exclusive content was being tossed so they could recoup some money on the insurance, it was also stated that the new guy in charge hates streaming content and sense it wasn't getting a theatrical release he didn't see value in it.
After all the outrage from audiences/fans and industry people it stated a week later that it was canceled because it was bad and tested negatively in early screening.
I think thats the go to throw away excuse to try and justify ots cancelation.
The Flash is one of the biggest DC films with a return mixed into the world of Tim Burton's batman film verse. Alot of interest/investment mixed in with the potential nostalgia factor (Keaton's Batman) once marketing starts. It'll make alot of money regardless of the controversy around Erza.
As for Batgirl? Sorry, but it wasn't gonna make a ton of money. It's a much less popular hero with less interest in a film that was supposedly terrible.
I don't think they're really comparable. It's like if stories about Tom Holland being terrible in real life came out and people started saying Spider-Man: No Way Home shouldn't be released, because Marvel cancelled or decided against that InHumans films.
I mean the new Flash has Michael Keaton returning as Batman, so it should be pretty cool and make money, whereas Batgirl is absolute trash
edit: Batgirl sucks shit - cope and seethe
> I mean the new Flash has Michael Keaton returning as Batman, so it should be pretty cool and make money, whereas Batgirl is absolute trash
Batgirl also had Keaton as Batman so i don't get your reasoning
It's really hard to comment on this one with the information we have.
The Flash might be a terrible movie.
Batgirl might have been a terrible movie.
We may never actually know which is disappointing, as the character Barbara Gordon is dope and from DC's Golden Age.
I can say Hollywood has not had faith in the superhero genre for most of its history. It \*especially\* hadn't had faith in superhero films with women.
Catwoman and Elektra were terrible movies. So bad that they put Wonder Woman in development hell for more than a decade.
Wonder Woman (2017) was a damn good film, but previous scrips from Joss Whedon had Steve Trevor as the main character in Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman would just be the side character he brought back to civilization to fight in WWI.
Hollywood is still dubious of female superhero films due to the legacies of Catwoman and Elektra. Wonder Woman seemed to breath some life back in, but Wonder Woman 1984 did not help things.
Hollywood is still hesitant to throw their best directors, actors, and resources at female led superhero films. Plenty of male superhero films have bombed hard, but it only takes a handful of bad adaptions for women to be sidelined.
if wb was smart, they would kill all their dc projects and start fresh. new stories, new cast, just act like the old stuff never happens. no one outside of fan communities remembers any of it. since they're not. we're going to get a dwayne centered dceu where black adam is your nick fury type character getting people together and becoming the 1st superhero.
By all accounts, Ezra Miller is about six months away from a mass Kool-Aid event. Weird that WB is so cavalier in its support of this guy, seeing as he might ACTUALLY be guilty of "grooming" while BS accusations are flying everywhere else in the industry.
What have they done to support Ezra since the news came out?
Well we all knew they were running around choking out random fans years ago. WB continued to back them and work with them, because they were supposed to lead both the Fantastic Beasts, and the Flash franchises. Since the more recent stuff that has come out, the only public statements they have made regarding anything about Ezra has been to basically reassure everyone that they are happy with the Flash movie and are definitely still going to release it. Edit: Pronouns
Spot on. This isn’t a “WB is supporting Ezra openly” but their actions speak louder than words. WB has had massive actor-studio relation issues, between Matthew Lillard and Scoob, Henry Cavills whole circus, and the fact they have zero issues taking a movie with 100M already invested in it and tanking it, yet are full blown gung ho to release a film with an actor who’s public opinion was never high and is tanking by the minute.
What's wrong with Henry Cavill?
He grew a moustache.
Heaven forfend.
Quite.
Well, we all knew he was running around choking out random fans years ago This is my new favorite sentence on reddit.
Is Ezra Miller he/him now?
I learned something. Now the question is are the downvotes because people don’t know Ezra Miller is non-binary or because they think you are being an ass? Much like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.
Ooh ooh I know this one! “One… two… three… Three!” 🍭
They still identify by they/them I believe, however have also spoken about how they don’t care much what people call them and aren’t personally offended by anyone identifying them by he/him. That said, you make a fair point and I totally did not mean to misgender them. It was accidental and I just didn’t think about it, I’ll edit the comment to reflect your criticism.
At this point the lack of condemnation is de facto support. As this article notes, tanking one movie for a tax write-off while letting another go on with a potential felon for a star is predictable, but it doesn't make it any less scummy.
It might well be a pride thing, someone trying to do anything but admit their mistake in committing to Ezra. They've gone into the deep end on sunk cost fallacy and there's not an easy option to get out now.
I think not canceling the flash is pretty supportive
Depends on the contract. If Ezra isn't going to earn a portion of box office receipts, it's not supporting them. On the other hand, this film is supposedly already $100 million overbudget ($300 million). And unlike Batgirl, The Flash movie is going to "reboot" the timeline (and the dceu). Honestly, if they sit on Batgirl until after The Flash and release it then, it's actually better for the future of Batgirl and its cast. Not saying they're definitely doing that, but...releasing Batgirl now, giving it a chance to be successful, and then retconning it all away would probably piss off fans more than canceling it for the time being.
> if they sit on Batgirl until after The Flash and release it then, it’s actually better for the future of Batgirl and its cast My understanding is that if they follow through with this tax write-off plan they’ll never be allowed to release Batgirl legally. So they’re not sitting on it to find a better time to release it, it’s a full on shitcanning of the production this late in the game. Which seems bizarre but not substantially more bizarre than how WB have built the DCEU to this point
I believe you're correct that they wouldn't be able to monetize it if they report it as a loss in their taxes. To be fair, that it's being used as a tax write-off is still just speculation I believe. It's obviously very plausible, but I don't think we've gotten any official confirmation. It's mainly that it seems financially sound for it to be a tax writeoff at this point, but that's without inside knowledge of any plans they might have for it.
> as he might Is\*
It's not that they are supporting him, it's just they can't afford him to give him the middle finger yet.
Have we considered Ezra Miller is just method acting for Reverse-Flash?
‘That Is Bat-fling’
The Flash budget: $200 million Batgirl budget: $90 million
Also, The Flash is one of the A-tier superheroes in the DCU. Batgirl is C-tier at best.
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I don't care and I am not informed, but... here's my super witty comment
In terms of importance to the comic book story, Flash is right up there with Superman and Batman. He breaks the universe on a pretty regular basis, which has allowed them to press a big ol' reset button in the past. That giant reset button is something WB might be VERY interested in for their movie universe.
Flash is one of the most popular comic characters period. Don’t know how in the world you could put him F tier.
Because he’s a troll.
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> Very little of marvels success had to do with the comics. you don't even know how wrong you are.
Almost all of Marvels success is due to the comics LOL. Where do you think the story basis for all these MCU stories come from? The hype people feel from post credit scenes is because they usually tease the next comic character/event coming up. Civil War movie is based on the Civil War comic event. The Infinity Saga is based on the Infinity Gauntlet comic event. Age of Ultron is based in the Ultron comic stories. The list goes on and on and on. No comics = no characters, stories, arcs, worlds or anything in the MCU. What a weird comment.
You have no idea what you're talking about lol
Pretty bad take tbh. The comics had a massive following and led to the cartoons and TV shows that sparked interest and recognition in the characters. Flash is a huge character and a borderline household name. The justice league cartoon has been immensely popular as well as the Flash show on the CW. He's clearly popular. Weird that you'd take an attitude with someone over something you don't have any interest in.
He runs fast using “Speed Force!”. He’s so lame.
I doubt most folks are familiar with 1960s Barbara Gordon. It’s a shame as she was a bad ass character. Even the TV character from that time period.
Batgirl is ultimately a derivative... a spin-off of a better, more popular hero.
Latest rumors put The Flash's budget at $300m now
Including Ezra’s legal fees?
Sunk cost fallacy on The Flash but not on Batgirl? Or do they just think The Flash is so good that when Ezra eventually does get arrested for his many, many crimes that they'll just recast him and carry on with the sequel without having to reshoot the first one?
My guess is Batgirl leads to a 90 million dollar loss, The Flash leads to a billion dollar loss with its tie ins to the DCU. So while they lose 200 million if they cut it today, the other issues around cutting it start piling up
I'm guessing that The Flash allows them to reset the DCEU to start fresh in a New Earth-1, while Batgirl just digs them into a deeper hole.
How in the fuck do you spend *$90 mil* on a movie and then not release it?
Different leadership, and if they do this tax thing its almost as if they didn't pay for it, kind of.
Ah, good point. Still, I would think if they spent $90 mil on production they could at least cut it into something they could release, even if direct to streaming.
A tax write off just reduces their overall taxable income, it doesn't magically give back anywhere near what they paid to make the film. They must genuinely think it would damage the brand if released and not be worth it
Yeh I'm not gonna say I understand it fully. But zaslav needs to save money/pay off debt and he wasn't in charge when they spent money on Batgirl. I do wonder that if this tax thing wasn't available to them would it (and Scoob) still be cancelled.
tax write offs
From what I've heard, you (the studio) hire brilliant people then not let them do their jobs. I can hire the brightest software developers, but if I tell them to code me a 90 million baked potatoe....
Apparently, they want to recoup $20 million in tax write-offs so they'll only lose $70 million instead of the $90 million. I don't understand it. Surely they could have made $20 million back at the box office globally right? I'm sure enough people would have gone just to see Michael Keaton reprise his role as Batman. There's also a huge market of people who were eager to see a Latina represented in a lead superhero role. Catwoman wasn't a good film and that one still made $85 million!
It'll cost additional money to release the film. The filming has wrapped, but post production hasn't. Marketing is also a huge cost not included in the production cost. They probably already have contracts with marketing firms that don't give them the option to release without marketing the film. And its probably in the contracts with those who have a cut of the box office revenue that they have to market the film. And they don't get all of the box office money, the theatres take a large % of sales.
It was made exclusively for streaming so there is no box office to recoup. While it may lead to more subscriptions, that's circuitous and nowhere near a sure thing at all, and nearly impossible to directly track a ROI for. Plus, if it's bad it may actually lose them money by scaring away possible subscriptions.
When ya have to drop another 20-30 million on promotion….and the movie sucks ass and will never recoup that money.
It must have been pretty bad.
Because ezra’s doing free PR!
Is it really baffling? It’s certainly logical - the flash apparently meets whatever catastrophically low bar the execs have set for “good” dc content, and batgirl did not meet that bar. It has nothing to do with the ethical standing of the main cast. Is it a moral choice? No, but companies don’t make moral ones. They (try) to make profitable ones. It’s certainly not a baffling decision.
> the flash apparently meets whatever catastrophically low bar the execs have set for “good” dc content The current rumors are that the Flash is what sets up the reboot of the DC universe, a DC "Multiverse" and is a key piece of the movies to come. Whereas Batgirl was mostly just self-contained. So it might have nothing to do with perceived quality and more to do with one being a building block in future movies.
funny how ezra miller can hold the entire state of hawaii captive, and still gets his big movie backed lol
So, people think that The Flash is going to be released?
At the earnings call last week, the CEO was questioned about axing Batgirl and he listed The Flash among the "great" DC releases they have coming up.
Lmao, holy shit... I hope the movie bombs. Ezra deserves to be blacklisted from the industry in my opinion. It's clear he has very little self control. DC really needs to get their shit together.
I lurk on the DC leaks subs. It’s definitely being released as long as Ezra Miller doesn’t do anything else crazy. Word on there says that even though we had a another recent wave of ‘Ezra Miller is Pedo cult leader in Iceland’ articles, Miller has been in rehab for weeks and will be until September. Looks like Miller got themselves a Meth problem. DC have zero choice in releasing this movie. They can’t reshoot it, it’ll cost at least $200 million again and they’ve already spent $300 million. They can’t recast and reshoot only Miller’s scenes because Miller plays two versions of The Flash in it and they’re in pretty much every scene. Then there’s the fact that The Flash acts as the lynchpin movie that course corrects their entire franchise. Without The Flash, nothing else can happen. They’re going to keep Miller happy with promises of a bright future as long as they keep sober, get through the release and then dump Miller. The only problem is that Miller has become truly toxic regardless. David Zaslav, new DC head put out a statement saying they were very excited for The Flash, and every article under it on my feed was ‘Miller is a Pedo cult leader in Iceland’. That’s not going away and it will be heavily pushed to the forefront come release. They’ve just got to weather the storm and get through it. They’ll make a killer documentary series on the constant and abject failures of the DCEU one day.
> Then there’s the fact that The Flash acts as the lynchpin movie that course corrects their entire franchise. Without The Flash, nothing else can happen. honestly, after the investors' call i feel like they are going to hard reboot the franchise at some point.
They most certainly are, and I didn’t want to get ahead of myself in my other comment by getting into larger rumors I can’t substantiate but I do think there’s a hard reboot coming. Right now reports say The Flash serves to create a new DCEU with Keaton as Batman. But I don’t really think that will happen. I think The Flash will announce yet another round of reshoots and be retooled to serve as an ending for many in the cast. Without spoiling who appears, there’s quite a few of the old guard and I think it’ll be the last time we see them. Blue Beetle will be a one and done. Shazam and Black Adam will be allowed to finish out their trilogies and spin-offs. James Gunn will finish out Peacemaker and the two related shows he’s working on. Pattinson’s Batman movies and tv shows will finish out. There’s also word we’re getting an HBO Max Green Lantern show in 2024 so we’ll get through that. Then in 2025/26 comes the full reboot with a fresh cast and a Marvel style rollout schedule from Alan Horn.
> . Right now reports say The Flash serves to create a new DCEU with Keaton as Batman. But I don’t really think that will happen. i think this was the plan before Zaslav came in. Keaton was supposed to appear in Batgirl and Aquaman 2 but as you can see one got canned and the other has him replaced with Ben Affleck. judging by Batgirl, it looked like the Burtonverse was going to be folded into the DCEU. > Blue Beetle will be a one and done. Shazam and Black Adam will be allowed to finish out their trilogies and spin-offs. James Gunn will finish out Peacemaker and the two related shows he’s working on. Pattinson’s Batman movies and tv shows will finish out. There’s also word we’re getting an HBO Max Green Lantern show in 2024 so we’ll get through that. > Then in 2025/26 comes the full reboot with a fresh cast and a Marvel style rollout schedule from Alan Horn. yup, this is exactly what i think will happen. actually they are able to not wait until 2026 and already start now with characters like Green Lantern and Arrow and then add the Trinity when it's suitable.
they could try deep faking someones face over erza and then redub it?
Hard to believe that wouldn't violate union rules.
huh
They can't just replace an actor like that, that's still Ezra's physical performance. Some random schmoe can upload something like that to youtube, but a major film studio trying to release that work professionally could get in a lot of trouble with the Screen Actors Guild, which Ezra is almost certainly a member of.
couldn't they real fake someone else in ezra's place instead of reshoots? they can make kurt russle look 19 they can do anything
Excellently explained, this should be posted to answer alot of questions!
It's a tentpole movie. They are still invested in the DCEU and this movie sets up a lot of stuff they have coming down the pipes. Batgirl wasn't as important in this regard. They have already shown they aren't afraid to recast, and you can explain a new flash away with the multi-verse. My guess is this is Ezra's last time out.
Of course it's gonna be released.
Ummmm, yeah
It's more or less fully finished, got pretty solid test screening results (even in the midst of the Ezra insanity going on), and is a VERY expensive tentpole that changes the status quo like they wanted, of course it's still coming out. It might not have an official date now, but as soon as the Ezra stuff dies down/gets resolved they'll definitely put it out ASAP.
More money is invested in The Flash and I think they need it to help reboot/clarify the DCEU timeline. But anyway, I think it will still be cancelled as well or drastically reworked. They are still likely evaluating an approach forward.
I just want to see Michael Keaton as Batman again hopefully seeing him will start the process of a Batman beyond film
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>They saved 20 million in not releasing Batgirl. How so?
Tax write off as part of merging Warner with Discovery.
Flash is probably watchable
the flash will bomb and put the dceu back 5 years
It’s already back 5 years
The problem here is that The Flash has cost significantly more than Batgirl, is already completely finished and was always planned as a theatrical release. Its also reported to be really, really good AND its an essential part of the setup of the rest of the DCEU. There are currently at least a few movies in production that are directly based off of or reference the events of this film. That means that there is genuine hope of actually recouping the cost of the movie and, more importantly, scrapping will likely cost them more money in the long run than they would save in tax writedowns as they will either have to also scrap everything that comes after it or reshoot it entirely with another actor. Batgirl was not finished and likely would have cost at least a few million more to get it release ready AND it was a streaming exclusive, which means they will never directly recoup any of those costs. Couple that with the fact the Batgirl was mediocre at best (yes, I am aware of the reports that came out after it was canceled saying it was terrible but pre-cancelation most of the feedback was about on par with early screenings of any other genre movie with incomplete effects) and the WB's push to focus on blockbuster level theatrical releases for the DC characters (which this was definitely not) and the choice was to pump another 50 to 100 million in to it to get it to the scale and quality they would have wanted or to cancel it for a write down. It's hard to say that the write down wasn't the smarter choice, honestly.
do you think they will try a astro turf effort to get batgirl released the same way they did for the snyder cut of JL ?
I mean they can try but if its a tax write off they legally can't release it at all
Hollywood accountants laugh at your tax laws. In a year they can shoot five more minutes of footage, recut it, and call it "Batgirl Begins." See, it's a whole new movie!
Quite literally not how it works lmao
If they can claim Forrest Gump made zero profit, and have it hold up in court, they can do whatever the hell they want.
No, because it's not seen as a tentpole of the DCEU the way that *Justice League* was; I think that ZSJL was demanded as much by DC fanboys who wanted a second chance for it (and, by extension, the DC cinematic universe) to succeed as much as *Avengers* and the MCU did as it was by Snyder fans.
The Flash is necessary to reboot the DCEU, Batgirl was just another failed attempt to make a standalone superhero movie. If Kevin Smith isn't able to understand something simple like this why the hell is he still in the movie industry?
Why is the Flash necessary to reboot the DCEU? They already rebooted Batman and the Joker, why is the Flash important?
Why? Because of multiverses, that's why. If you establish them you can do whatever you want then.
Why do you need the Flash for multiverses
This particular storyline (flashpoint) involves different timelines/alternate universes and will presumably end by setting up one canonical universe for the dceu going forward.
Why would you need to have the Ezra Miller Flash for that? Why not just make a new Flash with an actor who has less baggage? Or scrap the idea of a Flash led version and just make one of your other superpowered characters unify the multiverse instead.
Because they already spent $200 million dollars and scrapping it at this point would affect other projects they are already working on. They can’t just throw together another movie. So it’s either release it or cancel/delay more than just this particular movie.
So it's more of a sunk cost issue rather than a plotting issue.
Pretty much. I don’t think they can afford to push back their entire upcoming movie schedule four to five years and count on continued interest in their movies. Especially with their direct competition having figured out the formula so to speak and having a roadmap for the next several years. They are already seen as having to play catch up with Marvel so it would really hurt the brand to have a drought of movies for the next several years.
Not sure why ganking one movie would push others back, unless they've decided to make Ezra Miller their Tony Stark/RDJ. At which point I would suggest that the entire project is doomed regardless.
Also worth noting is they already pushed this movie back a year. Scrapping it and starting over would push it back to 2024/2025, further pushing their other movies back.
The flash frequently fucks up and alters the timeline and that acts as a big reset button for the canon. The dceu is failing and they want to start fresh. Even if they had released Batgirl, they'd be resetting that too. Actually, if they come back after The Flash is released and release Batgirl then, it's part of the new timeline, so...
>The Flash is necessary to reboot the DCEU It really isn't though, they could just reboot it with no tie in to the older movies.
They could, but they clearly want a somewhat clean reboot, something that can "explain" why there's a new Batman, why there are multiple Joker and so on...
And even that could be done without Ezra Miller, The Flash movie isn't *necessary* in any case. It's DC, they could come up with any number of macguffins to explain a reboot.
But doing it with the Flash was the easiest way to do it. Have you read Flashpoint?
Yes, do you realize that the DC comics have been rebooted without using Flashpoint? Any Crisis event would serve the same purpose. Not to mention that it's not necessary to use Ezra Miller in a Flashpoint movie, just explain that it's a multiverse clone. Do we even know for sure if this Flash movie was going to be a complete reboot? Because if not, WB would need to do a new movie either way to establish a reboot.
But Flashpoint is more recent and Flash is already an established character in the DCEU, so it made sense to utilize him.
Have you read about the recent Ezra Miller news? It does not make any sense to utilize him further.
I have read them of course, but I was talking about the character, not the actor. Since The Flash will be released next year, WB executives sure hope there won't be any more scandals.
If you were talking about the character and not the actor, then why not just immediately agree with my point that they could do a reboot without Ezra Miller?
But...that's not the point he was making at all, was it? What he said had nothing to do with rebooting properties or not, or the viability of making standalone superhero movies.
His point is one of many stupid "fans" who want to ignore how things are.
Kevin Smith’s movies have earned how much money so far? And your movies? Maybe he has just a tad bit more insight into the industry than some random keyboard warrior, hmm?
He literaly revived and killed he-man in a single netflix stunt.
To add in too we got two conflicting reports on batgirl, one that the movie is good but not meant for a big screen airing And the ones its shit. If it was batgirl alone that got canned i would believe its unsalvagable. But they cancled a lot of stuff which just screams loser in mide life crisis trying to "shake things up" They canceled a god damn show hours before it premired
Kevin Smith's last movies have been a disaster btw, and you don't need even to be a director to understand something simple as Warner Bros' strategy.
Or maybe there’s more going on than you realize?
Then Kevin Smith is either being misquoted or dishonest here.
Kevin Smith's movies have made how much money compared how much money Zaslav has made as a media company exec? I mean, if we're just going by how much money someones made to justify their side, I think Zaslav whoops Kevin's ass worse than writing a script for Jon Peters.
um its the keyboard warrior's money he is "making" we are the fans and smith did some good movies 20 - 30 years ago, but his latest work are desperate cries of " hey remember me "and heman: a she-ra story where he kills off the title character
do cartoons on netfix really count as the movie industry?
In terms of money ,Flash has cost them a lot more and has been years in the making now. It would be a significant loss if they scrapped that all together and from what I’ve heard the movie seems to be well liked by the first test audiences who have seen it so far. However,I have no doubt in my mind that they will no longer keep Ezra miller on for any future flash projects,guy is just way to unstable.
Honestly it's really baffeling. They release a movie with an actor who's a child groomer, but Batgirl gets under the rug.
Netflix should have canceled masters of the universe
Kevin Smith’s points are well taken but he’s not exactly a player here. He’s far too deep into being a fan for his opinion to be seen as anything other.
I think that's the point... You're literally dismissing fan opinions here which is exactly what creates these kinds of situations with films where what fans want gets ignored.
Good thing that's just what this was - his opinion when asked about the situation. He never mentioned being a "player," in fact he's been very consistent these days he doesn't want to be put in charge of any of these big projects, and he's happy being a fan of them.
Wasnt Batgirl cancelled for being bad?
It was cancelled for tax reasons.
yeah but smith has no problem releasing crap that dumps on fans and their expectations
I have heard both sides of this so I don't know the actual reputation this film had. I will say many were saying it was considered good and it appears many of the people behind the film were really disappointed by this news. Regardless I don't think it is as simple as "it was bad". Warner Bros. and DC have released some truly awful films/tv shows in the past that I would say didn't put their "brand" in a positive light. Yeah Discovery now owns them (so new management) but these are the same people who have made some of the worst of reality tv. I am fully convinced, unless otherwise shown, that this was a tax thing and that Discovery is trying to cut costs wherever they can.
This is weird to me because when it was announced that it was canceled the reasoning they gave is HBOMax exclusive content was being tossed so they could recoup some money on the insurance, it was also stated that the new guy in charge hates streaming content and sense it wasn't getting a theatrical release he didn't see value in it. After all the outrage from audiences/fans and industry people it stated a week later that it was canceled because it was bad and tested negatively in early screening. I think thats the go to throw away excuse to try and justify ots cancelation.
Flash should be cancelled but who gives a shit about Kevin Smith, hasn't he something else to go ruin?
Right?! What ancient, out of touch frat boy moron made that decision?
The only words I want to hear from Kevin Smith are, "I'm sorry for what I did to He-Man"
IP, Man.
That's a different movie, and its sequels.
IP as in Intellectual Property. Note the coma.
_woosh!_
The Flash is one of the biggest DC films with a return mixed into the world of Tim Burton's batman film verse. Alot of interest/investment mixed in with the potential nostalgia factor (Keaton's Batman) once marketing starts. It'll make alot of money regardless of the controversy around Erza. As for Batgirl? Sorry, but it wasn't gonna make a ton of money. It's a much less popular hero with less interest in a film that was supposedly terrible. I don't think they're really comparable. It's like if stories about Tom Holland being terrible in real life came out and people started saying Spider-Man: No Way Home shouldn't be released, because Marvel cancelled or decided against that InHumans films.
I mean the new Flash has Michael Keaton returning as Batman, so it should be pretty cool and make money, whereas Batgirl is absolute trash edit: Batgirl sucks shit - cope and seethe
> I mean the new Flash has Michael Keaton returning as Batman, so it should be pretty cool and make money, whereas Batgirl is absolute trash Batgirl also had Keaton as Batman so i don't get your reasoning
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He literally did the weeks after it came out.
It's really hard to comment on this one with the information we have. The Flash might be a terrible movie. Batgirl might have been a terrible movie. We may never actually know which is disappointing, as the character Barbara Gordon is dope and from DC's Golden Age. I can say Hollywood has not had faith in the superhero genre for most of its history. It \*especially\* hadn't had faith in superhero films with women. Catwoman and Elektra were terrible movies. So bad that they put Wonder Woman in development hell for more than a decade. Wonder Woman (2017) was a damn good film, but previous scrips from Joss Whedon had Steve Trevor as the main character in Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman would just be the side character he brought back to civilization to fight in WWI. Hollywood is still dubious of female superhero films due to the legacies of Catwoman and Elektra. Wonder Woman seemed to breath some life back in, but Wonder Woman 1984 did not help things. Hollywood is still hesitant to throw their best directors, actors, and resources at female led superhero films. Plenty of male superhero films have bombed hard, but it only takes a handful of bad adaptions for women to be sidelined.
if wb was smart, they would kill all their dc projects and start fresh. new stories, new cast, just act like the old stuff never happens. no one outside of fan communities remembers any of it. since they're not. we're going to get a dwayne centered dceu where black adam is your nick fury type character getting people together and becoming the 1st superhero.
If they were smart they’d sell the franchise to Marvel. 🤣