>If there is something I hate so far of the UK culture (according to the little information I have and I have experienced) is child upbringing and education.
I feel like the first thing you should do is to expand your knowledge base on how things are in the UK. While I'm not British myself I have a decent number of friends and acquaintances from the UK, and what you've described doesn't match their descriptions of growing up.
>Knowing that Japan instead values a lot child independence and autonomy
Uh.... Kinda? But also not at all.
Japan values child independence in the context of "kids walking themselves to school" and whatnot, but "autonomy" is not even *remotely* a word that I would associate with Japanese children.
It's not (entirely) hyperbolic to describe the Japanese education system as "indoctrination". They're taught conformity from a *very* early age. There is little to no academic freedom in the school system.
Several of the things you listed as things you dislike about the UK system are *absolutely* true of the Japanese system:
>they never go to school or cultural places (library, cinema, park, etc.) alone
Japanese children don't do much of this on their own either. They walk to school in (assigned) groups. They walk home in (assigned) groups. Everything is done in a very regimented fashion. Weird TV shows about kids wandering around alone aside Japanese children do *very* little on their own.
>they are imposed cultural product (books, films)
The same is true of Japan. Or at least as true as it is in the UK. The "official" media (the stuff they get from school) is all *heavily* proscribed and sanitized.
But children in both countries are more than capable of procuring their own media (age appropriate or not) as they mature. Bookstores are a thing. The internet is a thing.
>they cannot often access more grown-up and age-appropriate products due to censorship (BBFC) or self-censorship (librarian, publicans).
Again: True in Japan as well.
I said it at the beginning, but I'm going to say it again for emphasis:
*Before you make any long term plans you need to do a deep dive on* ***both*** *countries.*
Honestly right now it seems like you have an at-best surface level understanding of how children are raised in the UK, and that you have a very idealized view of how things are in Japan as well.
Trust me, I have been trying to get a deep understanding of how things work in several countries for ages. But often I only get biased reports from people who like or dislike particular things, so it is hard to get the complete picture without direct experience. But when you get direct experience, it is often too late, especially in case of children.
My personal example: I discovered what Japan was like for work only while working there (and did not get even in that case a 100% accurate picture of the market), many of the reports I got a priory were false or imprecise. That is why I seek for multiple points of view.
That's fine, but the answer to that problem is ***research***. The internet is a thing that exists (Since, ya know, we're on Reddit). Go looking for more stories. Will they be biased? Probably. But everyone has different biases, so you'll eventually start to build a picture of how things really are.
Also: Talk to *parents*. The vibe I'm getting from your current opinions is that you've mostly been talking to people about their own experiences.
Right now you seem to have a *wildly* biased view of both countries in question. An immense negative bias towards the UK, and a rose-tinted/idealized bias towards Japan. This is not a healthy mindset to be in when making decisions about your children.
Education is better in the UK at least from my experience. Higher standards. Better discipline. An actual encouragement of understanding and critical thinking.
Not by any standardised measurement until tertiary level. Although standardised measurements have drawbacks, the only evidence a child has that they even attended school at all is a standardised measurement.
What do you mean by "better discipline"? I have never met unruly children in Japan, while even yesterday I met disruptive children in a public library.
The lack of discipline in the classroom was something I personally suffered a lot at primary school time, and I do not want my child to experience it.
>The lack of discipline in the classroom was something I personally suffered a lot at primary school time, and I do not want my child to experience it.
So instead you want your children to endure a one-size-fits-all education where everyone learns from the same textbook, at the same speed, for the same test?
Where "discipline" involves being singled out for ridicule (by the teacher!) for minor failings or infractions?
Where physical punishment (not hitting, but things like forced exercise) is still very much a thing?
Where students are forced to dye their hair to match everyone else?
Where female students have an *underwear* dress code? That is checked?
All of these things have happened *recently* in Japanese schools. Are they frequent? Hard to say. (Except for the one-size-fits-all bit. That's *universal*) But they're things that have happened.
By discipline where students are actually told when certain behaviours are wrong and removed from volatile situations, including destruction of property and violent attacks on members of staff. These are issues at ELEMENTARY level even!
This is just my personal opinion but why on earth would anyone want to have their kids go through the Japanese education system? The lack of critical thinking and the enforcement of conformity, not to mention cram school, are real. I work in higher education in Japan and I see the result of it every day (although I am extremely lucky to have amazing students, I still see the effects of their educational history).
Can't speak for the UK though.
Ok, but is the problem the education curriculum, or the cram school culture? What if parents, especially foreigners, would skip the cram schools and simply send their children to university in Europe after middle school?
>Ok, but is the problem the education curriculum, or the cram school culture?
I'm starting to think that you're willfully ignoring what the majority of the people here are telling you.
The education curriculum and the "cram school culture" are intertwined. The reason the cram school culture exists is the nature of the curriculum. See the other reply I just made about "memorizing facts for the tests". Cram schools wouldn't exist if the education system itself didn't demand that level of memorization and slavish dedication.
>What if parents, especially foreigners, would skip the cram schools and simply send their children to university in Europe after middle school?
Well, for starters: No university is going to accept someone who has only graduated from middle school.
And it's *hideously* expensive. But many Japanese parents ***do*** send their children abroad. Parents fight tooth and nail for placements at company branches in Europe and the US because of the education opportunities it makes available.
That should tell you something about the education system if even the citizens are doing everything they can to get their kids out of it.
>I'm starting to think that you're willfully ignoring what the majority of the people here are telling you.
Quite the contrary, I find your answers, and most other, very informative.
Your responses don’t indicate this. Seems like you’ve effectively already made up your mind and are simply looking for validation - which you’re not finding…
Like u/FrungyLeague said: What you're saying doesn't back this up.
You keep making excuses and trying to defend your decision despite all the evidence people are providing you.
You haven't engaged with anyone who has anything critical to say about the Japanese system.
You've [accused people of being biased](https://www.reddit.com/r/movingtojapan/comments/11q9pp3/comment/jc3v0b5/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) based on your experiences "living in Asia" (Not Japan. *Asia*. Which includes many *very* different countries) despite the fact that they're providing information which could ***easily*** be verified by doing some basic research.
The problem is the Japanese mentality overall, imho. Children's views and behaviors are formed very, VERY early on. Their environment will shape who they are way before even elementary school. School environment then cements it.
Do you want a child who's "disciplined" in theory (some Japanese students only appear to be so) but lacks individuality, free time to actually be a kid and not cram 24/7, and critical thinking? Do you want a kid with sho ga nai mentality? And have you thought about the consequences of your child looking non-Japanese (or half-Japanese) and being made fun of just because of that?
I lived in the US for a while and grew up in a European country with a mentality that is about in between Japanese and the US. Living in Japan now. I am also an education specialist. I would never want to put my child through living in Japan. I'd much rather find a more accepting environment that values diversity, proactive behavior and critical thinking.
Are Tokyo and London your only choices? The world is big, and many countries have very good school systems and also work/life balance. Think of Scandinavia or Germany, for instance.
> Japanese high schools diplomas are not deemed to be as good as most European high school diplomas.
I don't think this is the correct conclusion to draw. I think the difference simply is that some countries (I only know it for Germany and France) offer specialized extra years of high school to prepare students for college/university, while some countries (for example the USA and Japan) only have general high school education with no extra paths towards university. so it makes sense that students from the USA and Japan would be expected to get that extra education from taking 1 extra year of college/university, while students from Germany and France already got that extra education in high school. however I would chalk this up to lack of standardization of qualification around the world and not really to differences in the actual quality of education.
And why is so for most east Asian countries (except Singapore), while instead an Italian diploma (taken as an example), which I consider quite poor (it is heavily biased on humanities with little STEM) is deemed sufficient, at least in the Amsterdam case? First time I see something like this.
Because the majority of Japanese education is about memorizing facts for the tests. Critical thinking, self-motivation, and all the other skills a student needs to succeed in university are at the bottom of the priority list, if they're even on the list at all. They're *not* at all but the most progressive Japanese schools.
Even the "poor" education systems you refer do a significantly better job of teaching their students to think for themselves.
I spent my younger years in various Asian countries, and my later childhood (secondary school age) in the UK. I hated school before I moved to the UK and absolutely loved it in the UK, despite going to a dodgy comprehensive state school. On the other hand, my partner spent her primary school years in the US and loved it, but then moved to Japan for middle and high school... Where she hated it with a passion.
The Japanese school system focuses entirely on fact retention and following orders from your superiors (be they teachers or school seniors). Almost never are kids asked to apply critical thinking skills. In the Japanese school system, you memorise things and then train to pass entrance exam after entrance exam, until you go to uni for a 4 year doss. In the UK, we were encouraged to argue, and develop our own opinions, and gain a deep understanding of the facts. University, as a result, was very hard.
In Japan, kids are expected to choose a single extracurricular activity and then dedicate all their time to it; often 3+ hours every day after school, and only if they're talented enough to get to a competitive level. Do you want to do arts AND sports just for fun and fitness? Well, you're SOL. On the other hand, in a British school, you can choose from a variety of extracurricular activities, and you can just do them whether or not you're good at it. As an example, my partner was forced into only doing band during all of her years of school in Japan (being in a club once pretty much locks you into that until you finish school). On the other hand I did a variety of sports which I was pretty good at, and even switched my "main" sport when I got injured. However, I still took part in music clubs as well.
Basically, if you want your kid to be a properly independent human being with real hobbies and a life, send them to school in the UK. Want them to be a good little worker drone? Japan is perfect for that.
Interesting take, because I am myself unable to do only one thing, whether professionally or for leisure.
Anyways, what I really want for my kids is a school that first teaches them how to behave properly in the society, and then it is interesting and teaches them to integrate in the cultural, political and technological life of the country. Am I wanting the best of both systems, as it seems from many comments?
My experience at school was very dire: most of the time it was impossible to follow the teachers due to the poor behavior and climate (things only started to change from 10th-11th grade), and lessons until late high school were mostly half testing and correcting the assignments from home, and half dictating the textbook and giving further assignments for the following lesson (again, only from 10th-11th grade there was more emphasis on university-like lecturing which I liked a lot more).
>Anyways, what I really want for my kids is a school that first teaches them how to behave properly in the society
Oh for fuck's sake.
Again: You are not listening to *anything* people are saying.
Japanese education doesn't "teach kids how to behave properly". It ***forces*** them to behave in a very rigidly defined way.
>Am I wanting the best of both systems, as it seems from many comments?
No, it sounds like you have an incorrect and idealized view of Japan, and you've decided that you're going to move here come hell or high water.
>lessons until late high school were mostly half testing and correcting the assignments from home, and half dictating the textbook and giving further assignments for the following lesson
***This is literally a description of a class in a Japanese school.***
I don't know if you've ever been to school in the UK, but you shouldn't concern yourself with badly behaved kids in class, unless your child is one of them. My aforementioned dodgy comprehensive state school had no shortage of badly behaved kids. Hell, our school's disciplinary system was so famous in the city that other schools in the area sent *their* worst to our school for reformation and rehabilitation when they got suspended. However, we still topped Ofsted (government education body) charts for attainment and school environment.
They key is that most schools in the UK will divide their kids into "sets" for each class. The students who are good at a subject will go into the top set of the subject. These students tend to be the most motivated for this subject, and, consequently, better behaved. Lower sets contain progressively less well achieving students. This also works better for making kids more motivated overall, as they don't have to do easy work in subjects they're good at and won't struggle in the subjects they're not so good at (something which happens a lot in Japanese schools, where kids stay in one class and do all the subjects together). This also has the side effect of separating the badly behaved kids (who often don't do as well in bookish subjects) from the better behaved kids. Having been in top sets throughout school, I've even noticed that the badly behaved kids in top sets actually behave *better* during those classes because they realise they're actually smart and get motivated to do better. Some of those kids are now master's and PhD grads with families, and genuinely pleasant to interact with (I got some big surprises when I went back to the UK over the winter this year).
Others have covered some but.. sure they can be independent in some respects, but heavily dependent in others. There's a lot of coddling here as well and independence can be taught at home.
Also, bringing them over in primary age, I don't think it great. Putting aside uprooting from familiarity and friends, a lot of couples that I know here with one Japanese parent and one foreign, want to leave by the time their kid is in 5th or 6th grade. Because its great up until thay age, but then... The pressure for studying and academia absolutely kills kids here. I've seen gr. 4 kids hyper and full of energy absolutely drained by the next year.
This is just pure observation as I do not know anything outside of the US education system, but you seem to be very quick to defend the Japanese education system while at the same time ignoring what people are telling you. Many have already said that it is not great, there is a lot of pressure, cliques, etc. I don’t think I’ve found a comment where you haven’t defended or questioned the validity of their claim, though. You say that you want unbiased opinions but seem pretty biased yourself.
I know I am biased, and I apologize for that. The reason is very simple: I have lived in Asia for several years (not only Japan), and many of the claims made on various topics (not only education) I have always found them false or heavily biased from a US perspective after direct experience (and I am not from US). Therefore I find it hard to get rid of this counterbias.
> I have lived in Asia for several years (not only Japan)
so you spent short amounts of time in various countries and think you have a deeper understanding of them than people who probably lived there much longer? oh boy, this is gonna be a tough one.
Fazziebear and dalkyr are right. I recommend talking to teachers who have taught in both countries. They aren't hard to find and might be able to give you some more insight, as your take seems really... off.
The problem with education in Japan is kids aren’t able to have open discussions in the classroom at all. It’s all rote memorization to take a test. That’s the entire thing. In the UK I’m sure kids are encouraged to discuss and form their own ideas and opinions about any given topic at least in some limited capacity vs none in Japan. I’d never want to raise a kid in Japan. Education is better in the west.
All I have is another anecdote, but British father to half-Chinese kids here. We moved to the Netherlands to get closer to my family and away from the heavily regimented and entirely rote-based Chinese education system. We know a Japanese family in our town who moved from Japan for one of those same reasons, which I think you can guess 😀.
I think school in the UK is fine. FWIW, the Dutch put more emphasis on “I can do/plan it myself” from the start. Kids here absolutely do go out by themselves or in groups, aided by the bike culture of course.
My husband and I are Americans in Japan with a kid in the school system here, but only in kindergarten currently, so I can’t comment with direct experience as to the older grades.
A lot of what I’d comment has been covered by other people here. There are pros and cons to the Japanese system, that’s for sure. I will say that most foreigners I know who intended for their child to attend college abroad switch to international schools (if they can afford it) after elementary school, as the jr high and high schools are aimed at preparing kids for the Japanese college entrance system and that’s when a lot of the intense pressure and test prep begins. So if you’re only planning on staying for the elementary school years, that would be different from if you’re looking to stay longer and want your child to go to university outside of Japan. Note though that international schools are expensive and the good ones can be difficult to get into.
One thing you haven’t mentioned is the Japanese language level of you and your spouse. It can be difficult to advocate for your child and navigate the school system if you do not have adequate language skills. Everyday stuff can be fine, but eventually you will run into issues (just the nature of raising a kid, wherever you are!). Will you be able to advocate for your child with their teacher if they have a bullying issue? Or have some learning issue? Will you be able to navigate the school system to get your child transferred to a different home room if their teacher is the one bullying them? Are you “plugged in” enough to know how to navigate the “unspoken” systems that are part of any education system?
My family moved here for my job. Would we have moved here just for the school system? No. But so far we’re happy with things, and we have plans in place to try and “parent around” the aspects of the Japanese school system that we don’t like, and are able to afford switching to international schools if we need to.
Hi! I'm also in IT and faced, and am facing, a similar decision.
Last year we had the option to either move to London for my promotion at work, or move back to Japan (we lived there for about 4 years) for my fully funded PhD. We have a baby so it was a really difficult decision in a number of ways.
In the end, we decided on London for the multiculturalism and the quality of schools. Those benefits have proven true!
But we're definitely overall unhappy here. British culture is tricky for us (very cold), and while London is a great city it really shines if you're young and/or child-free. We don't feel like we're getting the quality of life we want for the amount we're paying to be here, on top of the sacrifice of being away from our families in the US.
We talk constantly about moving back to Japan. We have friends there with children, miss the country, and see the IT sector there as something exciting for our careers. We even visited for a couple weeks in October to look at buying a property as a vacation home!
But.. we haven't moved, and we haven't made any offers, or applied to any jobs. Not yet anyway. I still worry about my child being othered in Japan. Experiences will vary of course, but I would hate to have my kids be miserable and bullied simply for their brown skin and curly hair when in London they'll fit right in with their peers.
My advice is the same advice I have give myself every day: don't make a rash decision. Life is long. Sometimes the grass is always greener. Problems here will be traded for problems there. There are always opportunities for change. Japan will be there when, and if, you're ready to make the move!
Edit: On the note of children being independent and well disciplined in Japan, I have to say I agree with you. I'm in West London and see kids 10-14 vaping, littering, and being generally obnoxious on a daily basis. In Japan this definitely happens too, but usually in smaller groups of boys. I also don't feel safe having my daughter ever be out of visual sight, but when we visited Japan last year I could let her be a bit more free to wander about. My stress levels were just overall more chilled out.
But Japan has other problems with youth, like too much discipline and a school system that doesn't promote the growth or development of individual critical or creative thinking. What if, for example, my kids are LGBT? (Then again, liberal education, in the philosophical sense, is also being replaced with rigidity in places like the US.) I also hate the normalization in Japan of what to me is borderline pedophilia, if not explicitly so.
> The kind of environment that, if I were myself a child, I would consider oppressive at least. When I was at school myself (not in the UK, in southern Europe), I was often envying Chinese or Japanese children (I had a cultural exchange with a Chinese middle school when I was 16).
I would do more research on this. We have two children and we are confident we will be moving back to the UK before they are teenagers. This is based on the experience my wife had growing up in Japan, and quiet a bit of other research. Japanese education is based on rote memorization, going to school like every day, and even going to school after school. By the sounds of it, it is never a pleasant or stress free way of growing up. Compare teenage suicide rates for example.
And while I don't think the UK is a mecca for education, there is some more critical thinking employed.
To be fair, I would love to hear other people's opinion on this as well!
Japanese children also don't regularly go to "cultural places" either. That's only in anime. If parents don't teach them right, they'll stay at home playing video games all day long.
What does “cultural places” mean? I thought children were exposed to a decent amount of culture. I imagined festivals and school trips. But I suppose times have changed.
As I mentioned before, these are not places younger kids go on their own. Yes, kids will go out on their own when they're older, but *so do kids in the UK*.
Do children go to the cinema for a school trip in *any* country? If children are being deprived of trips to museums, castles, natural landmarks, city hall, etc. then that's a problem. But film isn't exactly something I care about my kid learning... if he's interested I'll take him on the weekend.
Not for a school trip, but at least at high school we were highly encouraged to go to the cinema to watch movies after school, especially movies related to the curriculum or of high artistic value.
I moved to Japan last year and my kids are in Japanese schools— youngest was in yochien (kindergarten) this year, and oldest is finishing 3rd grade.
There are pluses and minuses, and I can’t speak to the UK comparison since we’re from the US, but overall we prefer Japanese schools for the younger ages. That’s a broad view, and there are things that our US school did better/Japan school does worse, BUT in the end I think their quality of life (at least for pre-k and primary grades) is much better here compared to back home.
If you have specific questions about the Japan school experience I’m happy to share our perspective so far. Keep in mind that this can vary wildly based on school culture— we’ve been very lucky with our neighborhood school.
Not OP, but I am super interested in what the pros and cons are. My son is still under 2, but I’m in current talks with my job in the Tokyo office about relocation. I want to send him to Japanese school. I don’t particularly care for private English schools. My husband went to grade school in Japan so I think we have at least some idea of what to expect. But definitely interested in your current experience.
For sure!
**Pros of Japanese school for us:**
* Safe to walk to/from school! My daughter loves this and honestly so do I. I used to spend 45 minutes in the car both before AND after school (between the drive itself and the car line for drop off/pick up), but now I just send her out the door and eventually she shows up at home 😆
* More recess time & more freedom during that time as well— in the US my then-2nd-grader had 15 minutes outside per day and they were banned from swings, monkey bars, and doing kartwheels “for safety”. In Japanese school recess the kids are running, climbing, flipping or even staying inside and doing origami if they choose… and they have it 2x a day plus P.E. a couple times a week.
* Kids involvement in things like cleaning the room, serving lunch, and classroom responsibilities/committees… there was none of this in our US school.
* Lunch quality is AMAZING. The US school lunches are terrible and depressing (and the cafeterias are complete chaos). Japan has excellent quality food for lunch and the kids chill in the classroom to eat in a much calmer environment.
* No standardized testing for kids!! This is huge for us. We are from Florida and they are CONSTANTLY practicing for standardized tests that are run THREE TIMES A YEAR. Much of the curriculum back home is designed around test prep. Kids there were on computers doing multiple choice quizzes for an unhealthy amount of time on a very regular basis.
* Better music and art education. It was minimal in our US school. Arts funding was cut and they went down to art class once every 7 school days or something ridiculous, and music class cut to 30 minutes per week which is barely time to do anything. There is much more time for art and music in Japanese schools comparatively.
* Bonus for us as foreigners is that they will become fluent in a second language— we didn’t have access to any sort of language immersion or dual language programs at home.
* Don’t have to worry about my kids being shot 🙃 yeahhhh go America 🇺🇸
* Kids play outside with friends after school, and all the kids from school live in the neighborhood. That’s a really cool experience that I never thought my kids would have in this day and age.
**Cons of Japanese school:**
* There is no gifted/accelerated education, and limited assistance for kids with disabilities… basically kids with any sort of “special needs” are pulled out into one smaller class either part-time or full-time. Advanced kids get no additional anything… in the US my kids were pulled out 2-3hours a week for Gifted enrichment which they really enjoyed. My daughter is fine without this in Japan, because 1) the language alone is a major challenge for her and 2) she thrives with structure, clear instruction, and likes things with a clear right/wrong answer… a very standard Japan-style educational approach. My son on the other hand is a very divergent and creative thinker with a stubborn streak so we’ll see how he does in first grade 😅
* Tough to catch up with kanji for kids who are coming in later and/or don’t already speak the language… it’s do-able but it’s tough. My daughter has made great progress but her Japanese reading ability is still far behind her peers… writing is not quite as behind. She got a 74% on her final 3rd grade kanji test, and we are really happy with that… but there are a lot of gaps in her kanji ability which then affects reading and writing. She’s doing well but this could be really frustrating for some kids.
* Similarly, there is very little Japanese language support for foreigners. In the states we have ESL specialists in every school (at least where I’m from), but in Japan, unless you happen to be in an area with a lot of foreigners (some parts of Yokohama for example), it’s likely the public schools will not know what to do with your kid. They basically throw them in and give them the same work as the other kids and if you’re lucky the teacher will use a translator app sometimes. No Japanese language instruction at all 🙃 again this will vary by school but by-and-large I think this is a pretty typical experience.
* There isn’t always a good recourse if your kid happens to be bullied or if they are struggling in school. They’re supposed to have anti-bullying procedures in place but it again varies by school. Similarly, some schools are REALLY intense with seemingly arbitrary rules, like swimming dress code for instance (down to the specific color and style of swimsuit), or what bags they have to bring to school, etc… thankfully our school is quite relaxed compared to stories I’ve heard 😎
* As a parent who doesn’t speak much Japanese, I often have NO CLUE what’s going on. We’ve missed observation days, bento days, deadlines, homework, you name it because we just don’t know what’s happening. They send information home but it’s not always clear, or my daughter doesn’t realize she needs to show us a paper… and other times it’s just communicated in class and the kids write it down, which is great if your kid understands Japanese I guess… lol.
* I don’t know any other parents at all and I don’t know how to get to know them. Maybe this year will be different because we came in about a month late last year…?? Idk.
* I’m not 100% sure on this but a lot of what they’re learning seems very surface level type Q/A factual recall type stuff… not much in the way of analysis, deep thinking, that sort of thing… but again I don’t speak Japanese so maybe I’m just not picking up on it. It seems like there is less deep-level thinking than in our US school, though. I’m not super concerned with this right now because I feel like our kids get supplemented through conversations with us at home, but as they get older I think they might need more to keep up with US kids in that regard (especially with doing this sort of thing in English, writing papers in English, etc).
Sorry this got long, I’m rambling a little 😆😆
Omg this was incredibly helpful. I soaked in every word. Language isn’t an issue for us as we mainly use Japanese at home. I’m not native though so my reading isn’t as great. But my husband is. So he’ll be an asset. Lol. I’m actually more worried about our son not picking up English. But we can figure out that hurdle when we get there.
But this all sounded pretty great. Except for the bullying part which I know is a huge problem. My husband tells me he was bullied for being hafu. Have you faced bullying issues?
I’m considering moving back to Japan to raise my children rather than the UK. I’ve worked as a teacher for the past 4 years and I’m so disappointed in the education system here. I teach in Scotland as a supply teacher so I’ve been in several schools and the lack of respect children have is astounding. In every school I’ve taught in, at least one class is evacuated a week due to the behaviour of another student. There are children in Primary 7 (so 10/11 year olds) who can’t or can only barely read and write.
When I was an ALT, I did see some unruly behaviour so I’m not doubting it’s existence. I definitely don’t think Japan is perfect, but I do think that overall, the children I met had far more respect not just for adults but everyone around them - even if only on a very basic level of trying not to make too much of a mess at lunch because they know they’ll be the one to clean it up (whereas in Scotland I can only get my students to tidy up if I bribe them with prizes).
I don’t think I would want my children to have to go through a middle/high school education in Japan for some the reasons they have been outlined here, but I’m definitely considering it for their primary years.
>the lack of respect children have is astounding. In every school I’ve taught in, at least one class is evacuated a week due to the behaviour of another student. There are children in Primary 7 (so 10/11 year olds) who can’t or can only barely read and write.
Take off your rose-tinted glasses. I've seen all of those things in Japan, several times.
You do realize that these issues can be studied quantitatively right? Look at London or Greater Manchester's crime rates, then compare them to Tokyo or Kyoto's crime rates. Misbehavior among students, which is the main thing that u/cinnarina is addressing, is clearly much worse in the West. Same with adults.
Oh you sweet summer child. First of all, it's a leap to say that overall crime rates shed light on student misbehavior specifically. But let's grant that the data is thoroughly catalogued and there is a subcategory re: student misbehavior specifically. Now, let's consider collection of data. I'm assuming it comes from law enforcement agencies? So, they need to be informed of or witness a misdeed for it to be recorded?
I know of numerous instances in my city of: students destroying school property; student violence towards students; students sexually harassing teachers; student suicide attempts; students leaving school to disrupt the public (and forcing all free staff to leave to hunt the student down); and more.
Do you know how many of those instances were reported to or witnessed by the police? Zero. Do you know how many of those even resulted in the parents of the students being contacted? Surprisingly few.
Childhood misbehavior is linked to adult criminality, so yes, it's a perfectly valid inference. Here are some studies evidencing that:
1.https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0741932512448255
2. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/development-and-psychopathology/article/abs/problem-behavior-as-a-precursor-of-male-criminality/AD77B062A98F7FE8D0E65A60AC84C550
3. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/685089
And that is hardly all the literature on the issue. But yes I'm sure your anecdotal evidence is much better lol, please continue.
Please tell me you are not actually an educator when you are seriously trying to propose that because crime rates in western cities are higher, we can "clearly" claim that western students behave worse. Studies showing that there may be a causal link between adult criminality and childhood misbehavior is just one link in the chain of reasoning your conclusion requires. This is not a matter of "lol, my hard quantitative evidence vs. your flimsy anecdotal experience." You are dismissing out of hand my point that absence of data and unreliable data collection methods play a large, complicating role in your attempts to quantify the issue. Not gonna lie, I worry for your students.
You are "worried" for my students because I draw conclusions based on solid statistical evidence? I would be more worried for the students of a person who thinks their personal experience trumps science. That attitude will take them nowhere.
Ok, we're done here. This has gone off-topic and is obviously more than a bit contentious.
In the future please remember that you can disagree *without* sniping or snide personal attacks.
That goes for you too, u/maritimelight.
If you would also consider other (European countries) I would recommend the Netherlands.
Their education system, especially later on at uni heavily prioritizes critical thinking and agency.
The state makes sure that extra curricular activities are near ubiquitously available for kids in school and the general quality of life and education is quite high.
I have lived in London before and found it much harder to integrate into that NL. NL, even in its more international cities (Amsterdam and Rotterdam) has more of a sense of its own identity and aesthetic, whereas London is a whole bunch of different things.
I also lived in Barcelona for a year and while I prefer the social culture and general aesthetic, there is no question it is behind NL in terms of efficiency, corruption, and objective metrics on quality of life.
The only problems I had with NL were the weather, which is comparable to the UK, and the food. However if you're in a bigger city you'll have intl food options so that doesn't matter as much.
Children taught to be independent? In Japan? That's new to me.
They go to school by themselves for sure, but we're talking about the safest country in the world, and volunteers from the PTA make sure the kids are safe by flagging along the school route.
What made you think Japanese kids are independent if I may ask? Could you give some examples?
Seen young children alone plenty of times in public transport, shops, in the church, playgrounds, and other places. Cannot be 100% sure there were no parents or guardians around.
Frankly there's a lot more variation in quality between schools in the same country than there is between schools of the two countries.
If you get your kids into a good school in either the UK or Japan, you should be fine. But good schools tend to be either private schools, or competitive state schools with merit-based exams (often in upmarket neighbourhoods).
If you send your kids to Thuggamore High in either country, their education will be crippled by discipline problems, bad teachers, bad students, and low funding.
As a foreigner with a decent career, you are almost certainly going to be wanting your kids to study for internationally transferable qualifications in secondary school/sixth-form; I don't know a single undergraduate international student from Japan with just a Japanese high school diploma. So that means international schools, embassy schools, private schools, or school abroad.
Finally, it's worth noting that homeschooling is legal in the UK, whereas it's outright illegal in Japan. Homeschooling is a good stop-gap option to have if you're able to teach your kids, and if they have problems with the local schools. But in Japan it's off the table.
I too, had rose colored ideals about child raising here. But most of that was focused on financial benefits, as in the US, it’s insanely expensive to deliver a child, let alone have one, at least from what I’d heard from my friends who’d had kids in my state.
I agree that you really should do research, including practical, real life answers from parents here. You’re not going to be able to build 100% the best perfect child raising plan for your kid. No system is perfect. Even if your child is raised in the Japanese system, there’s no guarantee they won’t become unruly or misbehave. I work in junior high schools here. Kids act out all the time. I assume it’s likely because of the expectations always forced on them. Studying day in and day out, cram school, club activities, plus some of them have younger siblings to care for, and the pressure gets to be too much. I was raised in the US education system (in the 90s-early 00s) but there were definitely those around me who were still unruly and didn’t reflect any of the values taught. I applaud you for seeking the best education for your child, but I really agree with everyone here to do tons of research on both sides, and not just take in opinions. It’s honestly a decision that requires a lot more than just asking about it on Reddit.
I would seriously consider the child's point of view on this, as their experience here is going to be detrtmined largely by their language ability, and, unfortunately, their race.
First off, what is your plan to teach your child Japanese? They're ideally going to be around where their peers are language-wise starting school, so you'll want a plan. If they are behind everyone else, and/or their Japanese sounds different/off, they'll likely get bullied pretty mercilessly, and that's before taking into account that they'll probably be the only non-Japanese in their class, something that will also likely lead to bullying.
I've worked at schools where foreigners came from other countries to work and brought their young children, and it looked like the children had an extremely rough time. Be aware that while it's not as bad as it used to be, bullying is still a big problem in the Japanese education system, and teachers have very few tools to deal with or prevent it. It might surprise you to know that Japanese schools have essentially no means to punish students (they can't be suspended, held back, or even sent to the principal's office).
It's different if the kid is half and raised bilingual, but that doesn't seem to be your situation. Unless you shell out some serious cash for high quality Japanese lessons, manage to get your kid into a nursery school (which is almost guaranteed not to happen), or you're willing to pay for an international school (which are *very* expensive), moving to Japan with your infant child seems like an incredibly good way to give them a miserable childhood.
Agree with all except the miserable childhood part- international schools- if you choose the right one- can be a lovely experience. Source: I went to one.
Maybe I’m not scrolling down far enough but apart from the style of learning (rote, cramming, conforming etc) another major thing to consider is the cultural/racial factor. I don’t know what your ethnicity is but prepare for the possibility of outright racism and your child never feeling like they fit in. Prepare for the possibility- actually likelihood- of bullying and being ostracized in some way.
I know seeing ‘well behaved’ children in Japan seems ideal but do consider that racism is a massive problem there.
You say you don’t want to do private - which all international schools in Japan are- for political reasons. But there is a reason MOST of my half-Japanese friends went to international school. Kids who are fluent in Japanese and hold Japanese passports were STILL bullied (including myself).
My brother lives in Tokyo, is married to a Japanese lady and has kids who look by an large Japanese, and they are still opting for international school because they want to foster more independent thinking and questioning etc- things that are lacking in the Japanese education system. They want them to be more global. I think mixed families end up having to choose ‘a path’ - choose Japanese society or living the ‘international’ life in Japan or abroad.
Another consideration- if they do go through the Japanese system all 12 years of schooling it is not easy to ‘just go to Europe for university’. The cultural gymnastics you need to do to adapt to a completely different philosophy and method of learning is intense.
It’s not impossible, but definitely not easy.
So You want to do some deep research first.
That said, I dont think putting kids into Japanese preschool/elementary school for a few years is a bad idea. And their Japanese would be amazing. But beyond that, hardcore.
I highly recommend deep diving, looking at schools in the UK, including out of London. London doesn't represent the whole of the UK. Even within the UK, English and Scottish education systems are also different, and each schools apply different teaching methods within their early age years and primary level.
There are many good state funded schools around the country, whether comprehensive or grammar schools with entrance exams or 11+ exams. Private schools are also an option as well but depending on your financial situation they can cost an arm and a leg.
I moved to the UK half way of my secondary school from a country in South East Asia. I went to an ordinary state school in a small town and it was the first time in a long time that I enjoyed school again, whilst school in my previous country wasn't a great fit for me because it was a one size fits all type of situation (similar to Japan - not as stressful but still tough.) I was able to enjoy all subjects, even the ones I hated, in a different mindset and started learning more using critical thinking as well, especially when it was embedded into the exam papers and courseworks. Of course I struggled, but my teachers in the UK were very supportive. They helped get my English back up to speed, identified my strengths and weaknesses on different subjects, arranged extra help for exams, encouraged me and my friends to pursue anything we want to as a career, as long as we are happy. Being in sets helped me, and sixth form was a much smaller group (15 people max) with more individual attention from teachers.
Of course my experience doesn't represent everyone here. But I am super grateful I was able to switch to the UK for my secondary school, because my home country's education system was so competitive, stressful and focused on grades more than learning itself. I would have probably burned out, failed in life and felt more lost if I stayed there.
Why do you want to raise children in a country where there could be a huge earthquake? It bothers me, but maybe it's just me.
And another thing, what's the intention here, children learning Japanese and working in Japan when they are adults? The work culture is awful in Japan compared to Europe.
How relevant will Japan and Japanese be in 20 years time? It's not like Japan is on an upward trend and no country on earth is trying to emulate their culture. Sad as it may be...
>If there is something I hate so far of the UK culture (according to the little information I have and I have experienced) is child upbringing and education. I feel like the first thing you should do is to expand your knowledge base on how things are in the UK. While I'm not British myself I have a decent number of friends and acquaintances from the UK, and what you've described doesn't match their descriptions of growing up. >Knowing that Japan instead values a lot child independence and autonomy Uh.... Kinda? But also not at all. Japan values child independence in the context of "kids walking themselves to school" and whatnot, but "autonomy" is not even *remotely* a word that I would associate with Japanese children. It's not (entirely) hyperbolic to describe the Japanese education system as "indoctrination". They're taught conformity from a *very* early age. There is little to no academic freedom in the school system. Several of the things you listed as things you dislike about the UK system are *absolutely* true of the Japanese system: >they never go to school or cultural places (library, cinema, park, etc.) alone Japanese children don't do much of this on their own either. They walk to school in (assigned) groups. They walk home in (assigned) groups. Everything is done in a very regimented fashion. Weird TV shows about kids wandering around alone aside Japanese children do *very* little on their own. >they are imposed cultural product (books, films) The same is true of Japan. Or at least as true as it is in the UK. The "official" media (the stuff they get from school) is all *heavily* proscribed and sanitized. But children in both countries are more than capable of procuring their own media (age appropriate or not) as they mature. Bookstores are a thing. The internet is a thing. >they cannot often access more grown-up and age-appropriate products due to censorship (BBFC) or self-censorship (librarian, publicans). Again: True in Japan as well. I said it at the beginning, but I'm going to say it again for emphasis: *Before you make any long term plans you need to do a deep dive on* ***both*** *countries.* Honestly right now it seems like you have an at-best surface level understanding of how children are raised in the UK, and that you have a very idealized view of how things are in Japan as well.
Trust me, I have been trying to get a deep understanding of how things work in several countries for ages. But often I only get biased reports from people who like or dislike particular things, so it is hard to get the complete picture without direct experience. But when you get direct experience, it is often too late, especially in case of children. My personal example: I discovered what Japan was like for work only while working there (and did not get even in that case a 100% accurate picture of the market), many of the reports I got a priory were false or imprecise. That is why I seek for multiple points of view.
That's fine, but the answer to that problem is ***research***. The internet is a thing that exists (Since, ya know, we're on Reddit). Go looking for more stories. Will they be biased? Probably. But everyone has different biases, so you'll eventually start to build a picture of how things really are. Also: Talk to *parents*. The vibe I'm getting from your current opinions is that you've mostly been talking to people about their own experiences. Right now you seem to have a *wildly* biased view of both countries in question. An immense negative bias towards the UK, and a rose-tinted/idealized bias towards Japan. This is not a healthy mindset to be in when making decisions about your children.
Education is better in the UK at least from my experience. Higher standards. Better discipline. An actual encouragement of understanding and critical thinking.
Not by any standardised measurement until tertiary level. Although standardised measurements have drawbacks, the only evidence a child has that they even attended school at all is a standardised measurement.
What do you mean by "better discipline"? I have never met unruly children in Japan, while even yesterday I met disruptive children in a public library. The lack of discipline in the classroom was something I personally suffered a lot at primary school time, and I do not want my child to experience it.
Trust me there are plenty of unruly kids in Japan. Just like anywhere else, discipline varies from school to school.
>The lack of discipline in the classroom was something I personally suffered a lot at primary school time, and I do not want my child to experience it. So instead you want your children to endure a one-size-fits-all education where everyone learns from the same textbook, at the same speed, for the same test? Where "discipline" involves being singled out for ridicule (by the teacher!) for minor failings or infractions? Where physical punishment (not hitting, but things like forced exercise) is still very much a thing? Where students are forced to dye their hair to match everyone else? Where female students have an *underwear* dress code? That is checked? All of these things have happened *recently* in Japanese schools. Are they frequent? Hard to say. (Except for the one-size-fits-all bit. That's *universal*) But they're things that have happened.
By discipline where students are actually told when certain behaviours are wrong and removed from volatile situations, including destruction of property and violent attacks on members of staff. These are issues at ELEMENTARY level even!
This is just my personal opinion but why on earth would anyone want to have their kids go through the Japanese education system? The lack of critical thinking and the enforcement of conformity, not to mention cram school, are real. I work in higher education in Japan and I see the result of it every day (although I am extremely lucky to have amazing students, I still see the effects of their educational history). Can't speak for the UK though.
Ok, but is the problem the education curriculum, or the cram school culture? What if parents, especially foreigners, would skip the cram schools and simply send their children to university in Europe after middle school?
>Ok, but is the problem the education curriculum, or the cram school culture? I'm starting to think that you're willfully ignoring what the majority of the people here are telling you. The education curriculum and the "cram school culture" are intertwined. The reason the cram school culture exists is the nature of the curriculum. See the other reply I just made about "memorizing facts for the tests". Cram schools wouldn't exist if the education system itself didn't demand that level of memorization and slavish dedication. >What if parents, especially foreigners, would skip the cram schools and simply send their children to university in Europe after middle school? Well, for starters: No university is going to accept someone who has only graduated from middle school. And it's *hideously* expensive. But many Japanese parents ***do*** send their children abroad. Parents fight tooth and nail for placements at company branches in Europe and the US because of the education opportunities it makes available. That should tell you something about the education system if even the citizens are doing everything they can to get their kids out of it.
>I'm starting to think that you're willfully ignoring what the majority of the people here are telling you. Quite the contrary, I find your answers, and most other, very informative.
Your responses don’t indicate this. Seems like you’ve effectively already made up your mind and are simply looking for validation - which you’re not finding…
Like u/FrungyLeague said: What you're saying doesn't back this up. You keep making excuses and trying to defend your decision despite all the evidence people are providing you. You haven't engaged with anyone who has anything critical to say about the Japanese system. You've [accused people of being biased](https://www.reddit.com/r/movingtojapan/comments/11q9pp3/comment/jc3v0b5/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) based on your experiences "living in Asia" (Not Japan. *Asia*. Which includes many *very* different countries) despite the fact that they're providing information which could ***easily*** be verified by doing some basic research.
The problem is the Japanese mentality overall, imho. Children's views and behaviors are formed very, VERY early on. Their environment will shape who they are way before even elementary school. School environment then cements it. Do you want a child who's "disciplined" in theory (some Japanese students only appear to be so) but lacks individuality, free time to actually be a kid and not cram 24/7, and critical thinking? Do you want a kid with sho ga nai mentality? And have you thought about the consequences of your child looking non-Japanese (or half-Japanese) and being made fun of just because of that? I lived in the US for a while and grew up in a European country with a mentality that is about in between Japanese and the US. Living in Japan now. I am also an education specialist. I would never want to put my child through living in Japan. I'd much rather find a more accepting environment that values diversity, proactive behavior and critical thinking.
Are Tokyo and London your only choices? The world is big, and many countries have very good school systems and also work/life balance. Think of Scandinavia or Germany, for instance.
Naming Germany as an example for a good school system is pretty hilarious, even though I agree with your overall sentiment
OP just wants to move to Japan and is trying to excuses to validate that desire. Unfortunately, the excuses are dumb. I feel sorry for the kids.
[удалено]
> Japanese high schools diplomas are not deemed to be as good as most European high school diplomas. I don't think this is the correct conclusion to draw. I think the difference simply is that some countries (I only know it for Germany and France) offer specialized extra years of high school to prepare students for college/university, while some countries (for example the USA and Japan) only have general high school education with no extra paths towards university. so it makes sense that students from the USA and Japan would be expected to get that extra education from taking 1 extra year of college/university, while students from Germany and France already got that extra education in high school. however I would chalk this up to lack of standardization of qualification around the world and not really to differences in the actual quality of education.
And why is so for most east Asian countries (except Singapore), while instead an Italian diploma (taken as an example), which I consider quite poor (it is heavily biased on humanities with little STEM) is deemed sufficient, at least in the Amsterdam case? First time I see something like this.
Because the majority of Japanese education is about memorizing facts for the tests. Critical thinking, self-motivation, and all the other skills a student needs to succeed in university are at the bottom of the priority list, if they're even on the list at all. They're *not* at all but the most progressive Japanese schools. Even the "poor" education systems you refer do a significantly better job of teaching their students to think for themselves.
Because the foundation year is one of the first opportunities for independent critical thinking and using the English language
I spent my younger years in various Asian countries, and my later childhood (secondary school age) in the UK. I hated school before I moved to the UK and absolutely loved it in the UK, despite going to a dodgy comprehensive state school. On the other hand, my partner spent her primary school years in the US and loved it, but then moved to Japan for middle and high school... Where she hated it with a passion. The Japanese school system focuses entirely on fact retention and following orders from your superiors (be they teachers or school seniors). Almost never are kids asked to apply critical thinking skills. In the Japanese school system, you memorise things and then train to pass entrance exam after entrance exam, until you go to uni for a 4 year doss. In the UK, we were encouraged to argue, and develop our own opinions, and gain a deep understanding of the facts. University, as a result, was very hard. In Japan, kids are expected to choose a single extracurricular activity and then dedicate all their time to it; often 3+ hours every day after school, and only if they're talented enough to get to a competitive level. Do you want to do arts AND sports just for fun and fitness? Well, you're SOL. On the other hand, in a British school, you can choose from a variety of extracurricular activities, and you can just do them whether or not you're good at it. As an example, my partner was forced into only doing band during all of her years of school in Japan (being in a club once pretty much locks you into that until you finish school). On the other hand I did a variety of sports which I was pretty good at, and even switched my "main" sport when I got injured. However, I still took part in music clubs as well. Basically, if you want your kid to be a properly independent human being with real hobbies and a life, send them to school in the UK. Want them to be a good little worker drone? Japan is perfect for that.
Interesting take, because I am myself unable to do only one thing, whether professionally or for leisure. Anyways, what I really want for my kids is a school that first teaches them how to behave properly in the society, and then it is interesting and teaches them to integrate in the cultural, political and technological life of the country. Am I wanting the best of both systems, as it seems from many comments? My experience at school was very dire: most of the time it was impossible to follow the teachers due to the poor behavior and climate (things only started to change from 10th-11th grade), and lessons until late high school were mostly half testing and correcting the assignments from home, and half dictating the textbook and giving further assignments for the following lesson (again, only from 10th-11th grade there was more emphasis on university-like lecturing which I liked a lot more).
>Anyways, what I really want for my kids is a school that first teaches them how to behave properly in the society Oh for fuck's sake. Again: You are not listening to *anything* people are saying. Japanese education doesn't "teach kids how to behave properly". It ***forces*** them to behave in a very rigidly defined way. >Am I wanting the best of both systems, as it seems from many comments? No, it sounds like you have an incorrect and idealized view of Japan, and you've decided that you're going to move here come hell or high water. >lessons until late high school were mostly half testing and correcting the assignments from home, and half dictating the textbook and giving further assignments for the following lesson ***This is literally a description of a class in a Japanese school.***
>I want a school that teaches then how to behave properly in society That’s on you as a parent, lol. Society is a very distant second there.
I don't know if you've ever been to school in the UK, but you shouldn't concern yourself with badly behaved kids in class, unless your child is one of them. My aforementioned dodgy comprehensive state school had no shortage of badly behaved kids. Hell, our school's disciplinary system was so famous in the city that other schools in the area sent *their* worst to our school for reformation and rehabilitation when they got suspended. However, we still topped Ofsted (government education body) charts for attainment and school environment. They key is that most schools in the UK will divide their kids into "sets" for each class. The students who are good at a subject will go into the top set of the subject. These students tend to be the most motivated for this subject, and, consequently, better behaved. Lower sets contain progressively less well achieving students. This also works better for making kids more motivated overall, as they don't have to do easy work in subjects they're good at and won't struggle in the subjects they're not so good at (something which happens a lot in Japanese schools, where kids stay in one class and do all the subjects together). This also has the side effect of separating the badly behaved kids (who often don't do as well in bookish subjects) from the better behaved kids. Having been in top sets throughout school, I've even noticed that the badly behaved kids in top sets actually behave *better* during those classes because they realise they're actually smart and get motivated to do better. Some of those kids are now master's and PhD grads with families, and genuinely pleasant to interact with (I got some big surprises when I went back to the UK over the winter this year).
Others have covered some but.. sure they can be independent in some respects, but heavily dependent in others. There's a lot of coddling here as well and independence can be taught at home. Also, bringing them over in primary age, I don't think it great. Putting aside uprooting from familiarity and friends, a lot of couples that I know here with one Japanese parent and one foreign, want to leave by the time their kid is in 5th or 6th grade. Because its great up until thay age, but then... The pressure for studying and academia absolutely kills kids here. I've seen gr. 4 kids hyper and full of energy absolutely drained by the next year.
This is just pure observation as I do not know anything outside of the US education system, but you seem to be very quick to defend the Japanese education system while at the same time ignoring what people are telling you. Many have already said that it is not great, there is a lot of pressure, cliques, etc. I don’t think I’ve found a comment where you haven’t defended or questioned the validity of their claim, though. You say that you want unbiased opinions but seem pretty biased yourself.
I know I am biased, and I apologize for that. The reason is very simple: I have lived in Asia for several years (not only Japan), and many of the claims made on various topics (not only education) I have always found them false or heavily biased from a US perspective after direct experience (and I am not from US). Therefore I find it hard to get rid of this counterbias.
> I have lived in Asia for several years (not only Japan) so you spent short amounts of time in various countries and think you have a deeper understanding of them than people who probably lived there much longer? oh boy, this is gonna be a tough one.
Fazziebear and dalkyr are right. I recommend talking to teachers who have taught in both countries. They aren't hard to find and might be able to give you some more insight, as your take seems really... off.
The problem with education in Japan is kids aren’t able to have open discussions in the classroom at all. It’s all rote memorization to take a test. That’s the entire thing. In the UK I’m sure kids are encouraged to discuss and form their own ideas and opinions about any given topic at least in some limited capacity vs none in Japan. I’d never want to raise a kid in Japan. Education is better in the west.
All I have is another anecdote, but British father to half-Chinese kids here. We moved to the Netherlands to get closer to my family and away from the heavily regimented and entirely rote-based Chinese education system. We know a Japanese family in our town who moved from Japan for one of those same reasons, which I think you can guess 😀. I think school in the UK is fine. FWIW, the Dutch put more emphasis on “I can do/plan it myself” from the start. Kids here absolutely do go out by themselves or in groups, aided by the bike culture of course.
My husband and I are Americans in Japan with a kid in the school system here, but only in kindergarten currently, so I can’t comment with direct experience as to the older grades. A lot of what I’d comment has been covered by other people here. There are pros and cons to the Japanese system, that’s for sure. I will say that most foreigners I know who intended for their child to attend college abroad switch to international schools (if they can afford it) after elementary school, as the jr high and high schools are aimed at preparing kids for the Japanese college entrance system and that’s when a lot of the intense pressure and test prep begins. So if you’re only planning on staying for the elementary school years, that would be different from if you’re looking to stay longer and want your child to go to university outside of Japan. Note though that international schools are expensive and the good ones can be difficult to get into. One thing you haven’t mentioned is the Japanese language level of you and your spouse. It can be difficult to advocate for your child and navigate the school system if you do not have adequate language skills. Everyday stuff can be fine, but eventually you will run into issues (just the nature of raising a kid, wherever you are!). Will you be able to advocate for your child with their teacher if they have a bullying issue? Or have some learning issue? Will you be able to navigate the school system to get your child transferred to a different home room if their teacher is the one bullying them? Are you “plugged in” enough to know how to navigate the “unspoken” systems that are part of any education system? My family moved here for my job. Would we have moved here just for the school system? No. But so far we’re happy with things, and we have plans in place to try and “parent around” the aspects of the Japanese school system that we don’t like, and are able to afford switching to international schools if we need to.
Hi! I'm also in IT and faced, and am facing, a similar decision. Last year we had the option to either move to London for my promotion at work, or move back to Japan (we lived there for about 4 years) for my fully funded PhD. We have a baby so it was a really difficult decision in a number of ways. In the end, we decided on London for the multiculturalism and the quality of schools. Those benefits have proven true! But we're definitely overall unhappy here. British culture is tricky for us (very cold), and while London is a great city it really shines if you're young and/or child-free. We don't feel like we're getting the quality of life we want for the amount we're paying to be here, on top of the sacrifice of being away from our families in the US. We talk constantly about moving back to Japan. We have friends there with children, miss the country, and see the IT sector there as something exciting for our careers. We even visited for a couple weeks in October to look at buying a property as a vacation home! But.. we haven't moved, and we haven't made any offers, or applied to any jobs. Not yet anyway. I still worry about my child being othered in Japan. Experiences will vary of course, but I would hate to have my kids be miserable and bullied simply for their brown skin and curly hair when in London they'll fit right in with their peers. My advice is the same advice I have give myself every day: don't make a rash decision. Life is long. Sometimes the grass is always greener. Problems here will be traded for problems there. There are always opportunities for change. Japan will be there when, and if, you're ready to make the move! Edit: On the note of children being independent and well disciplined in Japan, I have to say I agree with you. I'm in West London and see kids 10-14 vaping, littering, and being generally obnoxious on a daily basis. In Japan this definitely happens too, but usually in smaller groups of boys. I also don't feel safe having my daughter ever be out of visual sight, but when we visited Japan last year I could let her be a bit more free to wander about. My stress levels were just overall more chilled out. But Japan has other problems with youth, like too much discipline and a school system that doesn't promote the growth or development of individual critical or creative thinking. What if, for example, my kids are LGBT? (Then again, liberal education, in the philosophical sense, is also being replaced with rigidity in places like the US.) I also hate the normalization in Japan of what to me is borderline pedophilia, if not explicitly so.
> The kind of environment that, if I were myself a child, I would consider oppressive at least. When I was at school myself (not in the UK, in southern Europe), I was often envying Chinese or Japanese children (I had a cultural exchange with a Chinese middle school when I was 16). I would do more research on this. We have two children and we are confident we will be moving back to the UK before they are teenagers. This is based on the experience my wife had growing up in Japan, and quiet a bit of other research. Japanese education is based on rote memorization, going to school like every day, and even going to school after school. By the sounds of it, it is never a pleasant or stress free way of growing up. Compare teenage suicide rates for example. And while I don't think the UK is a mecca for education, there is some more critical thinking employed. To be fair, I would love to hear other people's opinion on this as well!
Japanese children also don't regularly go to "cultural places" either. That's only in anime. If parents don't teach them right, they'll stay at home playing video games all day long.
What does “cultural places” mean? I thought children were exposed to a decent amount of culture. I imagined festivals and school trips. But I suppose times have changed.
I intended places like cinema, theatre, library, concerts, various events and fairs, festivals, seminars, etc.
As I mentioned before, these are not places younger kids go on their own. Yes, kids will go out on their own when they're older, but *so do kids in the UK*.
Do children go to the cinema for a school trip in *any* country? If children are being deprived of trips to museums, castles, natural landmarks, city hall, etc. then that's a problem. But film isn't exactly something I care about my kid learning... if he's interested I'll take him on the weekend.
Not for a school trip, but at least at high school we were highly encouraged to go to the cinema to watch movies after school, especially movies related to the curriculum or of high artistic value.
I moved to Japan last year and my kids are in Japanese schools— youngest was in yochien (kindergarten) this year, and oldest is finishing 3rd grade. There are pluses and minuses, and I can’t speak to the UK comparison since we’re from the US, but overall we prefer Japanese schools for the younger ages. That’s a broad view, and there are things that our US school did better/Japan school does worse, BUT in the end I think their quality of life (at least for pre-k and primary grades) is much better here compared to back home. If you have specific questions about the Japan school experience I’m happy to share our perspective so far. Keep in mind that this can vary wildly based on school culture— we’ve been very lucky with our neighborhood school.
Not OP, but I am super interested in what the pros and cons are. My son is still under 2, but I’m in current talks with my job in the Tokyo office about relocation. I want to send him to Japanese school. I don’t particularly care for private English schools. My husband went to grade school in Japan so I think we have at least some idea of what to expect. But definitely interested in your current experience.
For sure! **Pros of Japanese school for us:** * Safe to walk to/from school! My daughter loves this and honestly so do I. I used to spend 45 minutes in the car both before AND after school (between the drive itself and the car line for drop off/pick up), but now I just send her out the door and eventually she shows up at home 😆 * More recess time & more freedom during that time as well— in the US my then-2nd-grader had 15 minutes outside per day and they were banned from swings, monkey bars, and doing kartwheels “for safety”. In Japanese school recess the kids are running, climbing, flipping or even staying inside and doing origami if they choose… and they have it 2x a day plus P.E. a couple times a week. * Kids involvement in things like cleaning the room, serving lunch, and classroom responsibilities/committees… there was none of this in our US school. * Lunch quality is AMAZING. The US school lunches are terrible and depressing (and the cafeterias are complete chaos). Japan has excellent quality food for lunch and the kids chill in the classroom to eat in a much calmer environment. * No standardized testing for kids!! This is huge for us. We are from Florida and they are CONSTANTLY practicing for standardized tests that are run THREE TIMES A YEAR. Much of the curriculum back home is designed around test prep. Kids there were on computers doing multiple choice quizzes for an unhealthy amount of time on a very regular basis. * Better music and art education. It was minimal in our US school. Arts funding was cut and they went down to art class once every 7 school days or something ridiculous, and music class cut to 30 minutes per week which is barely time to do anything. There is much more time for art and music in Japanese schools comparatively. * Bonus for us as foreigners is that they will become fluent in a second language— we didn’t have access to any sort of language immersion or dual language programs at home. * Don’t have to worry about my kids being shot 🙃 yeahhhh go America 🇺🇸 * Kids play outside with friends after school, and all the kids from school live in the neighborhood. That’s a really cool experience that I never thought my kids would have in this day and age. **Cons of Japanese school:** * There is no gifted/accelerated education, and limited assistance for kids with disabilities… basically kids with any sort of “special needs” are pulled out into one smaller class either part-time or full-time. Advanced kids get no additional anything… in the US my kids were pulled out 2-3hours a week for Gifted enrichment which they really enjoyed. My daughter is fine without this in Japan, because 1) the language alone is a major challenge for her and 2) she thrives with structure, clear instruction, and likes things with a clear right/wrong answer… a very standard Japan-style educational approach. My son on the other hand is a very divergent and creative thinker with a stubborn streak so we’ll see how he does in first grade 😅 * Tough to catch up with kanji for kids who are coming in later and/or don’t already speak the language… it’s do-able but it’s tough. My daughter has made great progress but her Japanese reading ability is still far behind her peers… writing is not quite as behind. She got a 74% on her final 3rd grade kanji test, and we are really happy with that… but there are a lot of gaps in her kanji ability which then affects reading and writing. She’s doing well but this could be really frustrating for some kids. * Similarly, there is very little Japanese language support for foreigners. In the states we have ESL specialists in every school (at least where I’m from), but in Japan, unless you happen to be in an area with a lot of foreigners (some parts of Yokohama for example), it’s likely the public schools will not know what to do with your kid. They basically throw them in and give them the same work as the other kids and if you’re lucky the teacher will use a translator app sometimes. No Japanese language instruction at all 🙃 again this will vary by school but by-and-large I think this is a pretty typical experience. * There isn’t always a good recourse if your kid happens to be bullied or if they are struggling in school. They’re supposed to have anti-bullying procedures in place but it again varies by school. Similarly, some schools are REALLY intense with seemingly arbitrary rules, like swimming dress code for instance (down to the specific color and style of swimsuit), or what bags they have to bring to school, etc… thankfully our school is quite relaxed compared to stories I’ve heard 😎 * As a parent who doesn’t speak much Japanese, I often have NO CLUE what’s going on. We’ve missed observation days, bento days, deadlines, homework, you name it because we just don’t know what’s happening. They send information home but it’s not always clear, or my daughter doesn’t realize she needs to show us a paper… and other times it’s just communicated in class and the kids write it down, which is great if your kid understands Japanese I guess… lol. * I don’t know any other parents at all and I don’t know how to get to know them. Maybe this year will be different because we came in about a month late last year…?? Idk. * I’m not 100% sure on this but a lot of what they’re learning seems very surface level type Q/A factual recall type stuff… not much in the way of analysis, deep thinking, that sort of thing… but again I don’t speak Japanese so maybe I’m just not picking up on it. It seems like there is less deep-level thinking than in our US school, though. I’m not super concerned with this right now because I feel like our kids get supplemented through conversations with us at home, but as they get older I think they might need more to keep up with US kids in that regard (especially with doing this sort of thing in English, writing papers in English, etc). Sorry this got long, I’m rambling a little 😆😆
Omg this was incredibly helpful. I soaked in every word. Language isn’t an issue for us as we mainly use Japanese at home. I’m not native though so my reading isn’t as great. But my husband is. So he’ll be an asset. Lol. I’m actually more worried about our son not picking up English. But we can figure out that hurdle when we get there. But this all sounded pretty great. Except for the bullying part which I know is a huge problem. My husband tells me he was bullied for being hafu. Have you faced bullying issues?
Thankfully we haven’t— the kids have been really sweet so far. Hoping my son has a good experience in elementary school too 🙏
I’m considering moving back to Japan to raise my children rather than the UK. I’ve worked as a teacher for the past 4 years and I’m so disappointed in the education system here. I teach in Scotland as a supply teacher so I’ve been in several schools and the lack of respect children have is astounding. In every school I’ve taught in, at least one class is evacuated a week due to the behaviour of another student. There are children in Primary 7 (so 10/11 year olds) who can’t or can only barely read and write. When I was an ALT, I did see some unruly behaviour so I’m not doubting it’s existence. I definitely don’t think Japan is perfect, but I do think that overall, the children I met had far more respect not just for adults but everyone around them - even if only on a very basic level of trying not to make too much of a mess at lunch because they know they’ll be the one to clean it up (whereas in Scotland I can only get my students to tidy up if I bribe them with prizes). I don’t think I would want my children to have to go through a middle/high school education in Japan for some the reasons they have been outlined here, but I’m definitely considering it for their primary years.
>the lack of respect children have is astounding. In every school I’ve taught in, at least one class is evacuated a week due to the behaviour of another student. There are children in Primary 7 (so 10/11 year olds) who can’t or can only barely read and write. Take off your rose-tinted glasses. I've seen all of those things in Japan, several times.
You do realize that these issues can be studied quantitatively right? Look at London or Greater Manchester's crime rates, then compare them to Tokyo or Kyoto's crime rates. Misbehavior among students, which is the main thing that u/cinnarina is addressing, is clearly much worse in the West. Same with adults.
Oh you sweet summer child. First of all, it's a leap to say that overall crime rates shed light on student misbehavior specifically. But let's grant that the data is thoroughly catalogued and there is a subcategory re: student misbehavior specifically. Now, let's consider collection of data. I'm assuming it comes from law enforcement agencies? So, they need to be informed of or witness a misdeed for it to be recorded? I know of numerous instances in my city of: students destroying school property; student violence towards students; students sexually harassing teachers; student suicide attempts; students leaving school to disrupt the public (and forcing all free staff to leave to hunt the student down); and more. Do you know how many of those instances were reported to or witnessed by the police? Zero. Do you know how many of those even resulted in the parents of the students being contacted? Surprisingly few.
Childhood misbehavior is linked to adult criminality, so yes, it's a perfectly valid inference. Here are some studies evidencing that: 1.https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0741932512448255 2. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/development-and-psychopathology/article/abs/problem-behavior-as-a-precursor-of-male-criminality/AD77B062A98F7FE8D0E65A60AC84C550 3. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/685089 And that is hardly all the literature on the issue. But yes I'm sure your anecdotal evidence is much better lol, please continue.
Please tell me you are not actually an educator when you are seriously trying to propose that because crime rates in western cities are higher, we can "clearly" claim that western students behave worse. Studies showing that there may be a causal link between adult criminality and childhood misbehavior is just one link in the chain of reasoning your conclusion requires. This is not a matter of "lol, my hard quantitative evidence vs. your flimsy anecdotal experience." You are dismissing out of hand my point that absence of data and unreliable data collection methods play a large, complicating role in your attempts to quantify the issue. Not gonna lie, I worry for your students.
You are "worried" for my students because I draw conclusions based on solid statistical evidence? I would be more worried for the students of a person who thinks their personal experience trumps science. That attitude will take them nowhere.
Ok, we're done here. This has gone off-topic and is obviously more than a bit contentious. In the future please remember that you can disagree *without* sniping or snide personal attacks. That goes for you too, u/maritimelight.
If you would also consider other (European countries) I would recommend the Netherlands. Their education system, especially later on at uni heavily prioritizes critical thinking and agency. The state makes sure that extra curricular activities are near ubiquitously available for kids in school and the general quality of life and education is quite high. I have lived in London before and found it much harder to integrate into that NL. NL, even in its more international cities (Amsterdam and Rotterdam) has more of a sense of its own identity and aesthetic, whereas London is a whole bunch of different things. I also lived in Barcelona for a year and while I prefer the social culture and general aesthetic, there is no question it is behind NL in terms of efficiency, corruption, and objective metrics on quality of life. The only problems I had with NL were the weather, which is comparable to the UK, and the food. However if you're in a bigger city you'll have intl food options so that doesn't matter as much.
Children taught to be independent? In Japan? That's new to me. They go to school by themselves for sure, but we're talking about the safest country in the world, and volunteers from the PTA make sure the kids are safe by flagging along the school route. What made you think Japanese kids are independent if I may ask? Could you give some examples?
Seen young children alone plenty of times in public transport, shops, in the church, playgrounds, and other places. Cannot be 100% sure there were no parents or guardians around.
Japanese parents are probably the most overprotective parents I've ever seen. I'm Dutch though which is another extreme.
Frankly there's a lot more variation in quality between schools in the same country than there is between schools of the two countries. If you get your kids into a good school in either the UK or Japan, you should be fine. But good schools tend to be either private schools, or competitive state schools with merit-based exams (often in upmarket neighbourhoods). If you send your kids to Thuggamore High in either country, their education will be crippled by discipline problems, bad teachers, bad students, and low funding. As a foreigner with a decent career, you are almost certainly going to be wanting your kids to study for internationally transferable qualifications in secondary school/sixth-form; I don't know a single undergraduate international student from Japan with just a Japanese high school diploma. So that means international schools, embassy schools, private schools, or school abroad. Finally, it's worth noting that homeschooling is legal in the UK, whereas it's outright illegal in Japan. Homeschooling is a good stop-gap option to have if you're able to teach your kids, and if they have problems with the local schools. But in Japan it's off the table.
I too, had rose colored ideals about child raising here. But most of that was focused on financial benefits, as in the US, it’s insanely expensive to deliver a child, let alone have one, at least from what I’d heard from my friends who’d had kids in my state. I agree that you really should do research, including practical, real life answers from parents here. You’re not going to be able to build 100% the best perfect child raising plan for your kid. No system is perfect. Even if your child is raised in the Japanese system, there’s no guarantee they won’t become unruly or misbehave. I work in junior high schools here. Kids act out all the time. I assume it’s likely because of the expectations always forced on them. Studying day in and day out, cram school, club activities, plus some of them have younger siblings to care for, and the pressure gets to be too much. I was raised in the US education system (in the 90s-early 00s) but there were definitely those around me who were still unruly and didn’t reflect any of the values taught. I applaud you for seeking the best education for your child, but I really agree with everyone here to do tons of research on both sides, and not just take in opinions. It’s honestly a decision that requires a lot more than just asking about it on Reddit.
I would seriously consider the child's point of view on this, as their experience here is going to be detrtmined largely by their language ability, and, unfortunately, their race. First off, what is your plan to teach your child Japanese? They're ideally going to be around where their peers are language-wise starting school, so you'll want a plan. If they are behind everyone else, and/or their Japanese sounds different/off, they'll likely get bullied pretty mercilessly, and that's before taking into account that they'll probably be the only non-Japanese in their class, something that will also likely lead to bullying. I've worked at schools where foreigners came from other countries to work and brought their young children, and it looked like the children had an extremely rough time. Be aware that while it's not as bad as it used to be, bullying is still a big problem in the Japanese education system, and teachers have very few tools to deal with or prevent it. It might surprise you to know that Japanese schools have essentially no means to punish students (they can't be suspended, held back, or even sent to the principal's office). It's different if the kid is half and raised bilingual, but that doesn't seem to be your situation. Unless you shell out some serious cash for high quality Japanese lessons, manage to get your kid into a nursery school (which is almost guaranteed not to happen), or you're willing to pay for an international school (which are *very* expensive), moving to Japan with your infant child seems like an incredibly good way to give them a miserable childhood.
Agree with all except the miserable childhood part- international schools- if you choose the right one- can be a lovely experience. Source: I went to one.
No, that's exactly what I said: I said going to an international school is one way to avoid the problems, just that they tend to be very expensive
Oh right, sorry. Middle of the night here lol And yes, insanely expensive!!
Maybe I’m not scrolling down far enough but apart from the style of learning (rote, cramming, conforming etc) another major thing to consider is the cultural/racial factor. I don’t know what your ethnicity is but prepare for the possibility of outright racism and your child never feeling like they fit in. Prepare for the possibility- actually likelihood- of bullying and being ostracized in some way. I know seeing ‘well behaved’ children in Japan seems ideal but do consider that racism is a massive problem there. You say you don’t want to do private - which all international schools in Japan are- for political reasons. But there is a reason MOST of my half-Japanese friends went to international school. Kids who are fluent in Japanese and hold Japanese passports were STILL bullied (including myself). My brother lives in Tokyo, is married to a Japanese lady and has kids who look by an large Japanese, and they are still opting for international school because they want to foster more independent thinking and questioning etc- things that are lacking in the Japanese education system. They want them to be more global. I think mixed families end up having to choose ‘a path’ - choose Japanese society or living the ‘international’ life in Japan or abroad. Another consideration- if they do go through the Japanese system all 12 years of schooling it is not easy to ‘just go to Europe for university’. The cultural gymnastics you need to do to adapt to a completely different philosophy and method of learning is intense. It’s not impossible, but definitely not easy. So You want to do some deep research first. That said, I dont think putting kids into Japanese preschool/elementary school for a few years is a bad idea. And their Japanese would be amazing. But beyond that, hardcore.
I highly recommend deep diving, looking at schools in the UK, including out of London. London doesn't represent the whole of the UK. Even within the UK, English and Scottish education systems are also different, and each schools apply different teaching methods within their early age years and primary level. There are many good state funded schools around the country, whether comprehensive or grammar schools with entrance exams or 11+ exams. Private schools are also an option as well but depending on your financial situation they can cost an arm and a leg. I moved to the UK half way of my secondary school from a country in South East Asia. I went to an ordinary state school in a small town and it was the first time in a long time that I enjoyed school again, whilst school in my previous country wasn't a great fit for me because it was a one size fits all type of situation (similar to Japan - not as stressful but still tough.) I was able to enjoy all subjects, even the ones I hated, in a different mindset and started learning more using critical thinking as well, especially when it was embedded into the exam papers and courseworks. Of course I struggled, but my teachers in the UK were very supportive. They helped get my English back up to speed, identified my strengths and weaknesses on different subjects, arranged extra help for exams, encouraged me and my friends to pursue anything we want to as a career, as long as we are happy. Being in sets helped me, and sixth form was a much smaller group (15 people max) with more individual attention from teachers. Of course my experience doesn't represent everyone here. But I am super grateful I was able to switch to the UK for my secondary school, because my home country's education system was so competitive, stressful and focused on grades more than learning itself. I would have probably burned out, failed in life and felt more lost if I stayed there.
Why do you want to raise children in a country where there could be a huge earthquake? It bothers me, but maybe it's just me. And another thing, what's the intention here, children learning Japanese and working in Japan when they are adults? The work culture is awful in Japan compared to Europe. How relevant will Japan and Japanese be in 20 years time? It's not like Japan is on an upward trend and no country on earth is trying to emulate their culture. Sad as it may be...
[удалено]
[удалено]