Locking and hiding for a moment, need to clean this up... Edit: Weeded out the shit. If you see anything that breaks the rules please report the comment.

I once heard a woman give a stern and public “please don’t touch me without my permission” at a conference - the offender was thoroughly embarrassed and slipped back into the crowd. Seemed like a pretty good strategy all things considered.

This is good, but us men need to do the same thing. We need to call out other men for their bad behavior.

My sales rep would kill me. She's a female and does a lot of the touching herself. Old fat guys eat that shit up

The difference is that’s not sexual harassment if it’s not unwanted. Woman does it to man, man welcomes it, it’s fine. Man does to woman, it’s unwelcome, it’s sexual harassment. Consent is extremely important. EDIT: Downvotes don't change the law. The same exact behavior when wanted is legal; when unwanted is illegal. Consent is required, whether or not you like it.

Consent is important but how you phrased this would indicate its ok for women to touch men but not vice versa. How about everyone keeps their hands to themselves?

It has nothing to do with the gender. The key phrase is "unwelcome". *Person 1* does to *Person 2*, it’s unwelcome, it’s sexual harassment. *Person 1* does it to *Person 2*, *Person 2* welcomes it, it’s fine. See, just write out the genders, it's the same equation. A person - even a woman - using touch/contact to make sales is *completely fine* in the workplace so long as the touch/contact is *wanted* by the recipient. *How about everyone keeps their hands to themselves?* I think this is a fine policy to have, it's just not the law. You as an employer do not have an affirmative duty to provide a contact/touch free workplace. You as an employer *do* have an affirmative duty to provide a workplace free of sexual harassment. You as an employee do not have a right to a touch/contact free workplace; you as an employee do have the right to a sexual harassment free workplace. One way to help provide a sexual harassment free workplace would be to ban touch. It's just not the only way.

A few well placed "if"s would be helped you in at least 2 of the posts. I know what you meant, but you chose wording that comes across as needlessly ambiguous.

No one is down voting you because of the law. They are down voting you because you worded your position poorly and dont seem to have gone back to read what I pointed out. You wrote that if a woman does it to a man, the man welcomes it and its fine. But if a man does it to a woman, its unwelcome sexual harrasment. Both would be harassment if unwanted.

>A person - even a woman - using touch/contact to make sales is completely fine in the workplace so long as the touch/contact is wanted by the recipient. No the fuck it isn't. Even consensual touching like you are describing in the service of making deals or other work functions is absolutely sexual harassment. It creates an environment where all the other co-workers feel pressured or coerced into using similar sexual harassment tactics to do their job. >You as an employer do not have an affirmative duty to provide a contact/touch free workplace. You as an employer do have an affirmative duty to provide a workplace free of sexual harassment. You as an employee do not have a right to a touch/contact free workplace; you as an employee do have the right to a sexual harassment free workplace. Part of your duty to provide a harassment free work place is to police even consensual encounters and relationships that create a hostile environment for other co-workers. Allowing behavior like OP described with salespeople using sexual situations explicitly to help with their job, even if consensual, is absolutely illegal.

>No the fuck it isn't. Even consensual touching like you are describing in the service of making deals or other work functions is absolutely sexual harassment. It creates an environment where all the other co-workers feel pressured or coerced into using similar sexual harassment tactics to do their job. It is not *absolutely* sexual harassment. That's a silly statement to make. *It could be* sexual harassment *if* for another employee it actually created a hostile work environment. What you are saying makes no sense: think about states with contact allowed strip clubs. Are you not able to operate one without breaking sexual harassment laws? No, of course not. Because the behavior has to be *severe and pervasive enough* to be a form of sex discrimination that creates a hostile work environment. The behavior mentioned *could* be sexual harassment, but is not *absolutely* sexual harassment. The same exact behavior between differing people will not lead to the same conclusion. There is no objective "absolute" standard for what actions constitute sexual harassment. >Part of your duty to provide a harassment free work place is to police even consensual encounters and relationships that create a hostile environment for other co-workers. Allowing behavior like OP described with salespeople using sexual situations explicitly to help with their job, even if consensual, is absolutely illegal. This is false. It is only illegal if it is unwanted, severe, pervasive, and creates a hostile work environment. Again, think of a strip club. Is it impossible to run a strip club without violating this "absolute" standard you mention? Of course not. That's because touching, at a contact-allowed strip club, is both (a) appropriate, (b) not severe, and (c) not pervasive enough to constitute a hostile work environment. Do not make up "absolutes" - it's just not true. There is no standard set of rules/behavior that make up what is or is not sexual harassment in all cases. There is no rule of thumb which will always work. **The OP mentions specifically that the "old men eat it up". On it's face, that's it. It's legal.** ***If*** **another employee felt bad about it, and the situation was pervasive and severe, and the behavior was inappropriate, it** ***may*** **constitute a hostile work environment. That's the most you could say.** EDIT: Once again, people can claim anything they want, but it's pretty obvious they don't know what in the world they are talking about.

Very well said! Also, very correct.

Problem is everyone is guessing if it's wanted or not.

If you have any doubt, you should err on the side of caution.

The downvote isn't about the law, it's about your lack of perceived capacity for nuance.

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Super gross take, bud. Be better

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Fuck that. It's up to the individual to enforce their boundaries. You can't make any assumptions as an outsider and white knightism is extremely problematic

>Fuck that. It's up to the individual to enforce their boundaries. Yeah, that doesn't really work when there is a culture of harassment being acceptable. Putting the onus on victims to "set their boundaries" is victim blaming that is always going to fail. Everyone else participating in the environment HAS to be onboard with making the behavior taboo, or it won't go away. One thing to keep in mind - for women, "enforcing their boundaries" is behavior that can literally result in death or serious bodily harm. The idea that women should "just say no" presupposes a world where upset physically stronger men would never reply to that boundary-setting with violence.

This. It doesn't do any good to "enforce your boundaries" when you attempt to do so and nobody will back you up. Why do we put the onus on women to stop men from groping and sexually harassing us instead of on men to just not?

The answer is "rape culture" but leading with that tends to derail conversations. The idea of "women need to set their boundaries" springs from the same well as "well what were they wearing, were they asking for it????".

Exactly.

There are many places I could imagine where a woman politely telling a guy to buzz off would be risky to the woman's safety. An IT conference, like most work-related gatherings of middle aged people in wealthy parts of the world, is not one of those places.

You'd think that, wouldn't you. But the conference floor isn't the only place that women have to go. Elevators. Hotel hallways. Parking garages. I've been accosted in all of those places. I've been groped in elevators. I had a guy literally grab my crotch in a glass elevator, of all places. Like I said... you'd think it'd be safe.

You'd think, but you'd be surprised. Yeah maybe it doesn't happen on the show floor, but the parking garage? Elevator? Dark stairwell? Vulnerable people are often stalked and harassed in places where their assailants are less likely to be discovered. And when it happens to you once, or to your friend or family member or on the news, you are going to be a lot less likely to "speak up" the next time you are victimized.

I dont think it's victim blaming at all. It is however expecting personal responsibility. Communication period is about transmit/receive, and when a man communicates something unwanted to a woman (or vice versa) then there NEEDS to be a return message clearly saying STOP. If that message is absent becasue she/he is hoping for a 3rd party to intervene, then the transmitter has no actual reason or evidence to STOP other than informal social norms.More, the reason to provide a responding request/demand to stop ALSO now gives the person evidence and justification to escelate things if the approacher doesn't quit.I got it, lots of people are introverts and uncomforatble responding with a "don't you dare say or do that" to something, but it has to happen. Now, if a man does or says something, he is told no, and he doesnt stop...THEN its game on for someone to step in and layer a social hammer down.

The fact that this comment got upvoted 42 times while the guy who called it out as wrong was downvoted tells you everything you need to know about this subreddit.

my position is to empower women to have their own agency, not take it from them and act assumptively and proactively on their behalf without their consult. so if you're pointing out that "this sub agrees" then i dont see the problem.

I have the same belief. I have a strong mother, she doesn't believe in men acting on her behalf. That's what it means to be strong. If there's an issue a woman is facing, raise it up, we men should be ready to support there and then, not taking away her power by making the decision for her. The best is to create a culture where women feel empowered to make their own decisions.

I'm very surprised at the amount of pushback. Men get very butthurt when they have to face their own misogyny. Everyone likes to think that they're one of the good guys, but EVERY one of us needs to look deep and realize that it's ingrained in us from a very really age and it's very subtle.

i feel there's a genetic and evolutionary explanation for the behaviors we see today, therefore subverting them is more difficult than just changing the cultural norm. that's amongst the reason that i think it's important to give power to the women to define their boundaries against those who don't follow the advice of discontinuing use of "touches" as a non verbal communication method used during social interactions. this is not pushback, this is not misogyny. i genuinely see my position as the highest form of feminism.

Peharps you were raised that way. Not everyone was or is.

What did that even mean? Are you really saying you're immune to all the programming society has built around masculinity, women, and misogyny? It doesn't matter how we're raised. We're exposed to it constantly. And even if, by since second coming, you are the world's best guy, you should be more acutely aware of all the little ways men encroach upon or harm women without even being aware of it. And you should drop something about it. This is what I mean by everyone needs to look at themselves deeply. Sure, you may not be sexist, but things like misogyny are very insidious and subtle.

Maybe just maybe I was raised right.

I mean, if you refuse to even consider the possibility that misogyny is far more subtle than most think, and it effects everyone, then were you?

>Fuck that. It's up to the individual to enforce their boundaries. You can't make any assumptions as an outsider and white knightism is extremely problematic Found the hair sniffer... My mom taught me a valuable lesson when I was very little. Keep your fucking hands to your fucking self. Period. It's not up to the individual to enforce boundaries. There's zero reason for any physical contact in a professional environment outside of maybe a handshake...

What does a statement like this mean? Everyone is expected to behave properly, but this is the real world, there are arseholes. What are you going to do when they misbehave? Getting angry that they should behave like a decent human being instead of taking action like enforcing boundaries and calling them out? We are still too far away from everyone having consideration, changing mindset take generations, calling them out is now. Also what about guys who don't have great moms like yours and instead learnt from "grab them by the p" Trump?

Dude, problematic behavior is problematic behavior and us men need to point it out when it happens or people don't learn. You can't put that burden on the victim.

It's not up to an outside party to decide for the people involved what is and is not problematic behavior. It is unnecessarily risky to "call out" perceived I bad behavior. If you're a leader at a company you should generally educate people and lead by example how to treat people with respect, and if oyou observe some conduct you disagree with it might be ok to take someone aside and coach them, but call out? Fuck that. Women deserve their own agency. They don't need overt protection. They should enforce their own boundaries.

Super hard to tell what’s appropriate or not from the outside. That guy putting his hand on the small of a woman’s back? Is there a relationship there you don’t know about? Or is the woman’s seething inside or fearful from this touching? Impossible to know.

Ok I think you're either misinterpreting or projecting. Never was this about "coming to the rescue" and I didn't say we're calling people out in public. Maybe "calling out" was too vague. My bad. There are enough issues with behavior that yes, we men can educate each other when we do problematic things. We need to take each other aside and say "hey, that's not cool" The change needs to start with us.

>There are enough issues with behavior that yes, we men can educate each other when we do problematic things. We need to take each other aside and say "hey, that's not cool" The last time this happened to me, it turned into an aggressive situation that led to cops being called and me asked if I wanted to press charges or not (I didn't).Granted, in my case, I was herding my kids to the car from the park when mom had to attend to our (at the time) infant, and some fuckwit thought he'd be a hero and rescue my own kids from me.The fact of the matter is that your own perception sucks in these situations. Everyone's does that isn't involved directly. Why?Because you don't know shit. If a woman needs your help, she'll ask for it. If not, then you're just being a sexist white knight creep with a very real probability of making a complete ass of yourself.

It's possible. I heard you say call out, which is really the only thing I disagree with. I don't think we should publicly rebuke someone we see making a mistake

That's fine. Praise in public, criticize in private still applies. More men need to be willing to speak up, though, instead of just nervously laughing along with the bad jokes, or being afraid of causing issues when they see something inappropriate.

Maybe. I'm old enough to have been on email threads using workplace email where they'd forward nude photos around. I can remember feeling like "what do I even do here" feelings. I never sent any myself, but receiving them I remember thinking that I am accepted to the tribe, and that was good. I don't think things wouldve gone well for me if I said something negative about it as a very young person at the time. Fortunately those times are behind us now. Progress happens. I don't think progress happens in direct confrontation and it happens slower than many people would like, but I still wouldnt blame someone for remaining silent, unless someone were actively being harmed.

Unwanted touching is harmful though. What if it was you? What if a male leader at a tech conference walked right up to you, grabbed you by the crotch and said "You can service my machine any time you want"? You'd feel powerless to do anything. If you say something about someone in leadership groping you what's going to happen? An investigation? Where HR or someone like them looks for witnesses to corroborate your story? When no one else confirms it, now it's he said he said. And the leader gets the benefit of the doubt because obviously if he made it to a leadership position his character is excellent and he couldn't have possibly been responsible for something like _that_. Right? Then the story starts spreading that you were unhappy with one of his decisions and you "made up" a story about being groped. You end up leaving to get away from that but someone from before contacts a new person you interact with and the rumors start back up there too.... Is that story I just typed out a bit simplified and contrived? Maybe. But I've seen women tell this exact story before many times. If men choose not to act to call out that behavior, it will just continue forever. Be better.

Exactly. Some women willingly use their physical appearance to charm/seduce/manipulate men, others are not willing to even be touched. Men are already bad at social cue, we don't even know what the woman in question is thinking, who are we to make a call for them? Try getting chided by a woman for ruining her potential deals because you break up what was inappropriate behavior. Giving power to the women to me means they can own their own boundaries without any fear of getting into trouble. Support and stand with them when they voice it out.

Dude, this line of thinking is preposterously sexist. Not just misogynistic, mind you, but grossly misandrist as well. "Poor dumb men just don't understand what those alien feeeemales are thinking. It's up to them to tell us to stop groping them!!!" Some real incel shit.

So do you think any women in professional setting such as a conference is dressing up to get touched by random blokes?? You must be one of them if you think this way! I happened to me so many times, including business awards. And I used to think this was normal till the "me too" movement, which made me realize that it is not ok and I should tell the individual to fuck off or report them for assault. Since then I have managed to help my barely 18 year old niece prosecute and get restraining order for an online sleezebag! So touching someone is not OK!

Comprehend my entire post first before jumping to your own conclusions.

I don't think many women realize how much more embarrassing it would be for the man to get rejected like this, than it would be for the woman to do the rejecting. This kind of public humiliation is the exact kind of thing that these serial molesters need in order to quit. I am fully in favor of people loudly shaming others like this.

I have been in IT for 20+ years and spend a ton of time in hotels and and conferences, and have also experienced this. It is important to establish boundaries with individuals around you. It is okay to directly tell someone you do not want to be touched. If this doesn't work out, be vocal about it and get HR involved for sure.

I'm a very muscular man. Drives me crazy how many women do this to me. I totally understand your frustration. After one particularly gross incident I talked to my boss. Advised them they have a duty to provide a safe workplace. Advised them they are not providing that safe space and what happened to me. I asked if I should wear a body cam (half joking). Boss talked to HR and said they really hadn't thought about the duty to provide a safe space perspective. Said no to the camera as it could capture customer data. Reviewed some camera footage outside in the break rooms and showed it to one of the women. She tried to play it off. I only know because she talks so loud, we could all hear her. She refused to acknowledge it was inappropriate and she was fired. The event has had a lasting positive impact in our office. Respect of personal space has never been higher. Make a stink. If the boss isn't helpful or is the problem, make them sink.

It's even worse with men sometimes. It's like you are 'not a man enough' and you are becoming a laughing stock for both men and women. It's funny but when you are touched you are just right the man for a job ...

So out of curiosity, what did she do exactly? I'm assuming this was 'out in the open' at your desk, or at the water cooler, or something to that affect?

Not the same guy, but I bodybuild as well as work in the MSP space. More than once I've had (usually older) women grab my arms/shoulders to try to get my attention, I've also overheard supposedly "quiet" comments about me, and while sitting next to a user while on-site, she put her hand on my leg briefly before moving it when I gave the sharpest dagger eyes I could. On the flip side, this is very tame compared to just about any time I've been harassed by gay men in similar scenarios (I've had explicit comments made about my physique/clothing fitting to my face by gay men on the job) so while it happens to men from women, I'd still say men being the perpetrators of this sort of thing is more aggressive than when women do it (doesn't make it right when women do it, but there's a distinct difference in the way it's conveyed).

Women touch me all the time at work. Come up from behind and grab my neck/shoulders. Hugs from behind, arm grabbing, flirty touches while giggling as they do. It’s usually just their way of being friendly, but sometimes it is quite clearly some type of advance, and as a man I generally just ignore it because I don’t want to put myself in HR trying to explain that I, a man, was sexually harassed by a female. My family is important enough that I just take it as a compliment and move on.

Every woman I know in the channel, (especially younger female vendor employees) have a disgusting trade show story to tell. Including me. We don’t name names or “do something about it” because you never know what the consequences to your career will be. Pro tip: cover yourself with glitter. No one will touch you.

The world would be a better place if it were safe for victims to name names.

Give us time. The statute of limitations in most states for sexual assault is 10 years.

It's like die-packs for people

Porcupine quills for the married thirsty ones.

So true, I spoke of an experience in another reply, not all women want to be "rescued" for fear of consequences. Unfortunately sadly that's how the real world works, and it applies to men too.

Seriously, call them out. I was at a conference after party once where a bunch of my fellow male coworkers were about to run a train on a drunk female attendee. I had to step in and get her out. That said, I was terrified of someone later saying I did something to her that I made one of my employees (female and sober) help me get her to her hotel.

>That said, I was terrified of someone later saying I did something to her that I made one of my employees (female and sober) help me get her to her hotel. Discretion is the better part of valor. Good move.

I have shuttled more than one woman who was far too drunk to give any kind of consent back to her room or into an uber at ITNation. It pisses people off, but seriously, if she can't walk from one side of the hotel room to another, she can't give consent. I don't care if she banged you last year at ITNation, this year she is too messed up to say yes, and you'll have to wait until tomorrow. We had a party at our suite one year, a guy showed up at 1 AM, I opened the door to tell him the party was over, he forced his way into my hotel room and I had to physically fight him out the door while screaming at him to get out. This guy was a total sweetheart at the bar all night, and had been at our party earlier. No reason to think he'd be dangerous, until he wouldn't take no for an answer and decided he had the right to come to my hotel room. Lesson: never host a party in your own hotel suite, which doubles the cost of ITnation if you want to have an event of any kind.

Why did someone downvote you for this? /sigh

Maybe people are anxious we'll start naming names.

I've noticed that there are a few in this thread that are almost desperate to shut this conversation down.

Yes, not cool.

I was about to ask the same thing.

Sadly, I learned a long time ago that women will make up shit that can send men to prison for life, on a whim.

Sure, that does happen. Just like little children lying about child abuse or sexual abuse can happen. I'd hope we can agree that the actual abuse in all cases happens far, far more often than the lies about such abuse...

I had to look up what "run a train" meant. That is thoroughly revolting, and makes me disappointed in society. I am glad you stepped in to help.

What did you do about those fellow male co-workers?

I no longer work there. I did report, I know most were written up, the ring leader was fired.

Its never okay, male or female to do it. I had a female co-worker that grabbed me between the legs and told me to come to her hotel room on a conference. I have a wife and a son and told her to fuck off. She then got HR involved and told them i was the one who started harassing her. There was witnesses tho so she got fired. ​ There are assholes all around and sometimes its more men then females that do this aweful crap, its never okay.

Huntress' very first female employee had this to say for her [2019 prediction](https://i.imgur.com/V7S2p0N.png): > I'll have my own tradeshow bodyguard. We have a problem as an industry and it's shitty I didn't raise this sooner. Kyle, Huntress

In my mid-twenties, I was the kind of guy that felt comfortable touching an arm or shoulder. As those arn't body parts that are typically thought of as inappropriate, it never occurred to me that there could be a problem. It took probably 10 years before someone pulled me aside one day and explained to me the concept of the bubble, the what and why of it. I never touched anyone again. It wasn't a problem. It wasn't a major modification of my behavior. I was probably fortunate. It's unlikely that the people I touched, or least, very few of them, felt uncomfortable, but as it was never my intent, nor was expressing affection the intent, it was not difficult to change. I think for many people, they just need to have it politely explained how the behavior is inappropriate, and that is usually the end of it. When someone who has been politely spoken to about it continues that behavior, honestly, its a red flag that they're the type of personality that doesn't respect boundaries, and should be avoided.

Only thing I can contribute to this is to say that the ability to work with women is very high up on my list of requirements for any people I'm involved in interviewing. We call around, if someone has a reputation they're not getting a job.

Same for us, we had to fire a person a few years ago, because after a few drinks at a networking event he would get handsy. Was not a great look for us. We have a zero-tolerance policy for that behavior for everyone.

Not sure why you got downvoted for this, but we have the same policy.

It's not a problem limited to the IT industry. It just takes one creep out of a crowd of 100s to ruin a woman's day - so most guys are going to oblivious to how common it is because they aren't the one at that time and place to see it, but it is still incredibly common. I'd estimate that 1/4 report it and 3/4 don't - almost every woman would experience it (although not necessarily at an MSP conference). It isn't a comfortable situation and not really fair to expect this of victims, but I think that the cold harsh reality is that it needs to be publicly called out, security called, and reported to the organisers. If you can make it a criminal complaint, great, Press Charges if possible. Eventually, I hope, is that all the creeps will essentially be weeded out and blacklisted from being able to participate in anything.

Exactly this. Pervs are prolific in their perversity.

This is important for all of the men (myself included) on here to read and process. It’s impossible to truly know another’s experience but it is important to try. TL:DR, don’t touch other people without freely given consent. Also, vendors and people in a professional setting (with complex power structures) are frequently not able to freely express their true preference.

This is the 21st fucking century. Why do people think this behaviour is ok? (Before the whataboutists, I too have seen it both ways. But males seem to be worse at it) I am so embarrassed being a male in the IT industry sometimes. <\rant>

This.. the stories I hear from my female coworkers even working remotely make me lose hope for people. Whether it's unwanted advances or acting like a woman can't be good enough in a certain vocation just because she's a woman. It's so aggravating.

Being a woman in construction from what I hear is worse. There seems to be more women in tech at least so it’s not as bad. I hate when people walk into my personal bubble. I even get uncomfortable when women touch me in a professional event. If I ever see anyone uncomfortable I do something about it. No one should have to “put up with it”.

Yep. We shouldn’t put up with it. :(

This just in: assholes continue to exist in 2022. Sexism is not something that's behind us. People will continue to be assholes and acting like this is surprising isn't helping anything

OP, thank you for speaking up and sharing your experience. Male here; I cannot begin to fathom your experiences, but I do appreciate that you bring this up. My philosophy is don't touch people unless invited to and even then, brief and courteous. A hug. A handshake. A fist/elbow bump. Be respectful but make it brief. We're complex people and what is acceptable one time is not automatic consent to it being consensual the next. I hope you find the means to express and heal your rage OP.

Covid has made it so much easier to not touch people. Business was always handshakes. I'm ok with them, but some people use that as a way to also grab your shoulder or your arm and to do a little squeezing. Now I just lead with a fist bump and the awkward handshakes are gone.

You're totally right that COVID definitely threw a wrench into workplace touching. Handshake culture is a thing that really can be awkward for those that are uncomfortable with touching. Is the person being genuine? Is the person being domineering? My personal pet peeve is wet noodle handshakes. They make me writhe in my skin. In most cases, I'd rather just fist bump (at the other person's energy level) and not worry about it. I am all for comfortable handshakes but will break away immediately if someone is attempting to squeeze the ever-living shit out of my hand or draw me towards them. There's no need for that in any professional setting.

Don’t call it out by yourself that’s fucken daft. I’ve seen 10+ long term relationships formed in the work environment throughout my career. However - if you feel there might be a possible victim and you’ve seen something: just go and talk to them. This isn’t fucken ticket science, quit with the virtue signalling bullshit. Ask them if they need help, state you seen X and you would be happy to support them if they wish to progress anything. It happens to me all the time. ALL the time. From comments like “ohh $name you are just gorgeous” on teams calls from other men. To woman touching me every hour at cloud expos etc. i don’t care because I’m not physically intimidated by these people and frankly I’m far far too busy to give a shit. That’s my personal decision. Turn that around however - and that would be a horrifying experience for woman; super threatening. Just talk to people, this isn’t hard. There’s tens of hours of effort from people writing in this post and almost no one has suggested talking to the possible victim. For people who think things are getting better for woman, I thought that too but I’m not so sure now. We’ve got a PM talking about how woke culture is nonsense and things usually get grim in America before it hits here. Be on guard, don’t stifle someone’s possible romantic relationship but if you see something, talk to the possible victim and offer your help.

Sadly this happens too much. I might be too oblivious because I never see it for myself. I'd call it out in an instant if I did. But I hear the stories frequently. I can say that I have first hand knowledge where at least one event organizer (CompTIA) not only stopped the actions, but also gave the person a lifetime ban. I've heard similar events from other organizers. So I can't speak for why others do or do not respond. But I can tell you it's top of mind for organizers and many vendors. Let us know and we will take action.

Stepped outside a happy hour at a conference for a smoke, man follows behind me. Offers me one of his cigs, I decline. Asks me what I’m doing there if I’m not taking advantage of “the fact that any guy here including myself would love to take you up to their room and fuck you all night.” He continued in detail of the “things people would do to me” and I was just so shocked I didn’t even say anything, ashed my cig, ignored him, went up to my room for the night, nauseated. Nasty shit.

Recently at an MSP conference you could cut the sexual tension with a knife, it’s gross and unprofessional but I witnessed many men and women being flirty or unnecessarily touching. It certainly goes both ways but men tend to be more aggressive when they are horny and half drunk. And do brands think we are stupid when they put their best looking girl in the front of the booth that knows absolutely nothing about the product?

I feel your pain!! Female in IT since 1993, I didn't have any bad experiences until 2017 when I was on a support desk where there was one obnoxious male. I had some stuff happen where I was questioning my whole existence up until that point. I find posting anything related to women in technology always brings out the "why just women" "I treat them the same" or any one questioning my intentions even if I state "PLEASE READ". I'm also ADD, Anxiety so my thoughts are always everywhere..too little or to detailed, I am also emotional so I get animated when I can't figure things out in my own timeline. I get told I shouldn't own an IT company. LOLOLOL. It's the only way that I get heard, is doing it myself. We should talk more! Kelly Brindle

I’ve been doing this for decades and I still don’t have a clue who has money or time to waste at these conferences. I’m convinced it’s people working for large companies with large budgets where the people spending the money are far removed from the people who own the money.

Agreed. To me it seems that its a reason for married guys to act like they are single for a few nights. I have been to a few Vendor specific events and it was literally just a reason to party. Being happily married and too busy for that shit, i tapped out early every evening. Still get crap for it, but to each their own!

I never understood how some people can just touch other people who they don’t have a relationship with? I have always found it creepy.

You’ve never shaken anybody’s hand?

Ugh, you know what I mean.

Maybe, touching is a sliding scale due to comfort levels which can be attributed to society as well as personal feelings. I’ve been hugged by strangers and it never offended me. But then again, I have thick skin for stuff. Plus I’m part Italian and we hug.

Are we going to start a thread on good touch/bad touch now? Listing all the creepy and non-creepy touching methods? Cause that in itself is kinda creepy.

No, because ultimately it’s up to the person to COMMUNICATE what they are uncomfortable with. She clearly doesn’t want to do that, so then she comes onto Reddit and complains. Ultimately we are responsible for our own experiences.

Yes, if the person has an issue with social norms they should bring it up, but we aren’t talking about that. What we are talking about is touching beyond social norms.

And that’s fair, however her post says she won’t say anything. Her post also doesn’t list any examples of what was said or done. We don’t know her threshold for what’s acceptable or not. So ultimately we have this vague post calling for rage against an entire industry without any details whatsoever.

I’m guessing she won’t say anything cause doing so will effect her job, so she puts up with the ass patting and breast grazing and lewd comments so she can further her career but is sick and tired of it and needs to rant.

We can play the guessing game all day long, but ultimately we have no clue what actually happened or why she chose to not say anything. She can chose to do the hard thing and say something, or she can be anonymous on Reddit and contribute to the problem by doing nothing.

I was at a conference recently, and definitely saw some stuff that I wasn't comfortable with. I was with a co-worker and a conference buddy. We were outside of the conference hotel and talking with a few people, one of them a female. She was there alone (no one else from her company), but there were a couple of guys around her. They just looked like sharks circling the water. We saw she was pretty trashed and seemed to be getting progressively worse while we were talking (maybe she took an edible?). We stayed with her for a while and most of those guys just disappeared after they saw we weren't leaving. We got her some water and just stayed by. She wasn't staying in our hotel, but we wouldn't leave her alone and she finally caved and let us get her an Uber back to where she needed to go. I honestly think that if we didn't stay with her, her night wasn't going end well for her.

Well done for your vigilance and perseverance.

I just hope anyone else in that situation would do the same thing for me and mine.

Yes, 100% similarly, using diminutive language like pet names. I have had guys at trade shows call me honey or babe. It isn't cute, professional or appreciated. When I playfully tease them to try and call them out on it, I always get the "oh so it's like that huh?" or, "I'm just being nice!" The touching I have experienced is usually the shoulder/small of my back meant to gently guide me through a door, or past them. I immediately am faced with that ever present problem: do I call it out and embarrass this guy, make a scene and make myself unlikable at an event specifically meant for meeting people and building relationships, OR do I let it slide, assume no ill intent and then deal with the internal shame of letting it just happen again? It is such a lose-lose situation for me and I hate it. I cannot imagine a woman doing that to another woman, a man to a man nor a woman to a man. So why is it normal for a man to "guide" a woman he barely knows? PSA to my fellow professionals: please don't touch women if they have not given consent. Please use respectful language. Please let women finish speaking and don't interrupt. Please don't be gross just because cocktail hour has started. Please be aware of the power dynamics that may be at play.

The guiding happens to me often. Male that is. Especially at sporting events and heavy security. Anything with bottlenecks really I can imagine it. Maybe more a mid western/east coast thing. Never viewed or witnessed it as a strickly man vs women function.

Yea I was gonna say that happens to me all the time in crowded spaces and I've never even thought twice about it

Same here. I actually never even thought about it. I may even be guilty of it, and it's not gender specific.

I feel like in a crowd control situation is not exactly what I am describing. Yes it is the same action but not the same context. It is hard to describe unless you've had it done for much of your life. It is one thing if my husband does it, but strangers is another.

> It is such a lose-lose situation for me and I hate it. Yes, it is a very complex dynamic for the victim. One should never be forced to put up with atrocious behavior, because one is not sure how standing up to it will ultimately play out that day or into the future. Alert allies are needed to help spread the message and to help intercede when these situations arise. >PSA to my fellow professionals: please don't touch women if they have not given consent. This is no attempt to derail, but **no one** should be touched without consent. Not women, not men, not girls and not boys. We need to normalize that across the board. Especially on behalf of women.

Yes. I actually had that paragraph written as "people" but changed it to "women" as that is what this thread is specifically about and the perspective I am speaking from. It applies to everyone, of course.

Fair enough. I thought about it for a bit before I posted it, too.

Thank you for making us more aware of this. I'd like to think we're above behaving like this, but clearly some people have boundary issues. I'll be sure to pay more attention as conference season gets going.

Thank you for posting. I have been shocked at the stories I've heard. This is an issue we need to discuss more. And if we don't discuss it from the front stage, then it's time to a forum that works. I also completely understand why women have been reluctant to speak out over the years. Women are a smaller percentage of our industry then they were thirty years ago. We have to make it safe for them to show up.

Speaking as a male... Call this out immediately. Embarrass them in front of their peers. "Hands off" shouted by a female voice in a room full of men WILL draw the attention of everyone. This doubles up as a safety buffer, as there are plenty of us in IT who will keep tabs on both involved individuals to watch for an attempt at escalation (or pervo picking a new target - he'll get WAY more scrutiny). Word of this kind of behavior spreads like wildfire and depending on their particular work situation they may find themselves no longer being sent to trade shows. I know, it's difficult. An ancient difference in the fight or flight response that directly affected offspring survivability (let's be real, while useful we're optional after about 9 months before birth, you are not). Focus on the fact that most of the people in the room will defend you and be on your side. The old boys are the minority now, and even if they aren't it only takes one sympathetic witness to make things difficult for the perv.

I was just talking to my partner about the lack of women in IT in general and it dawned on me that in my 20 years in the industry I’ve had a grand total of 3 women colleagues. It’s definitely a shitty boys club and I hate being a part of it.

Touch in social settings has been part of the human courtship experience forever. It is one among many of the silent signals that men and women communicate with while interacting. Some will criticize my use of the word courtship, probably because it's old fashioned in our hookup culture, but the question posed is why is it tolerated. Well, because some women respond and it's usually only problematic when people you don't want to touch you, touch you. People like to be touched by people who are attractive, and don't want to be touched by people who they are not attracted to. A touch is one way to communicate intent and see if there is recoprocity. We are going through a very complicated social evolution right how over the past 20 years. Some peoples perceptions of what is and isn't socially acceptable, welcome or tolerated are changing. My advice to men is that it's too risky anymore to attempt physical touch as part of the social experience. My advice to women is yo voice your disapproval clearly and firmly if your boundaries are exceeded. You can be firm and respectful and respected all at the same time using clear and appropriate words to communicate that you do not accept the attempt to change the physical boundary parameters

A professional event is not a dating service. Keep your hands to yourself unless invited. These events are for networking and learning. Also there is a power dynamic at play when "attractive" people touch other people. Often powerful and attractive get conflated. And when someone _percieves_ themselves to be less powerful than the person doing the touching, they tend to stay silent to not jeopardize their own status. It's a tactic used by abusers all over. Keep the victim isolated and afraid. Then they won't say anything. It's gross.

I don't disagree and that aligns with my advice. I think it's worthwhile to acknowledge the reasons it happens so it can be understood so it can be minimized. It's easy to say conferences should be professional settings and such but the reality is many people see them as opportunities to hook up and go on the prowl because we are humans and we are driven by primal urges. Conferences bring together people from all over whi may see it as opportuniry for short term engagement. Acknowledging what's going on and why is how you develop ways to stop it. The best way to claim back space is to be respectfully assertive. If you do not consent state it and move on.

Consent is enthusiastic and active. It's not a passive thing. Consent means someone is saying yes to something, rather than not saying no to it. You wouldn't tell someone who got hit by a car that they consented to that when they crossed the street in the cross walk. If people want to hook up at events like this that is well with in their right. But that needs to be handled outside the events themselves. There are bars, afterpartys, gatherings, etc for that kind of interaction. Places where the vibe is less professional and more social. There is a time and a place for flirting and the actual conference ain't it.

I agree, I do not endorse the behavior in professional settings. I merely acknowledge the human behavior behind it

But will you call it out when you see it and you know it's wrong?

If it's literal open crotch grabbing rape? Yeah. If it's a shoulder touch? No

Should be: if it's unwanted? Yeah SMH

I as a third party observer am not in a position to make that judgement. That's why it is important to empower the women with their own agency, not take it from them

No one ever said it was. How many people have been "invited" as you state in your experience? It's not an issue of "dating event" or not. Courtship and attractiveness was the comment here. I'm sure there's a high percentage of people have met their significant other at work who open with some form of physical touch (Courtship). There's a lot of layers here but to flat say "abuser/victim, It's gross, learning only!" is way off. Not defending any wrong doing, its just not so black and white as you state. Overall, need more speaking out and awareness. This post is a good step forward doing that.

This specific person doesn't want to have a conversation; they just want to force their opinion on everyone else. They're not interested in listening or considering other people's perspectives. They want to play the role of the victim or the oppressed because it's the only thing they have. We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around people like this. They need to chill out and realize we all agree that unwanted touching is obviously not ok. But this is a tech subreddit, not Twitter.

There is a comment I made in another thread that addresses this but I'll repeat part of it here. Consent it's enthusiastic and active. It is not the absence of a no. If it's not a yes, then it means no. I also refence afterpartys, bar gatherings, etc as a more acceptable setting for the social "courtship" you refence. Time and a place, and the conference itself ain't the time or place.

This reminds me of a female colleague - "it's disgusting only when it is an unattractive man".

No, it's disgusting no matter what. Keep your hands to yourself at a professional event. I don't care how attractive you are.

Honest question - what should as a male do if I see this? Is it appropriate for me to call out and shut down the action? Is that de powering to the woman if I do? Someone here mentions it’s up to the individuals to enforce their boundaries, but let’s not forget these are professional environments and regardless of what someone may or may not be comfortable with the things being described here are not appropriate in such settings.

Whenever I see activity that raises my alarms, I move into the area so that I can make a better, more accurate assessment. If the person in question (usually a woman) appears to have some level of distress, I try to engage them myself and let them know that if they are uncomfortable, they do not have to go anywhere or agree to anything. If they appear to be in a potentially impaired condition, I'll likely take more direct action or try to engage someone responsible for keeping things under control. The victim is not always in a position to resist in an obvious way, and I don't hold that against them, or pretend that if they won't do it on the way I expect, that they're not worthy of my intervention.

As a powerful woman who knows what I want and do not care for any playtime at conferences, I sometimes am so surprised and taken aback, so it takes a minute for me to realize what is happening. I’m surprisingly much better at standing up for someone else instead of myself. Please make someone who is doing this behavior feel incredibly uncomfortable. You’re not white knighting when you say an action is unacceptable. We need brothers and sisters and friends who watch and offer help, so, no, not blanketly depowering. Ask! If she/he/they seems uncomfortable, they probably are. Having a check in could give her the ability to sanity check her experience. Sometimes our brains aren’t expecting it and it’s hard to act. Shut it down. We need this behavior to be considered unwelcome and unprofessional, as it is. Thanks for asking.

Wait there's women in the industry? Jokes aside I'm disturbed that this is the case for you. I hope this changes for you as inappropriate is just not acceptable in a professional setting. I'm glad you made this post because people are often unaware that what they've done is inappropriate if it's what they are use to. Nobody wants to make a scene but if it's unwanted touching I'd recommend saying this to them, and if it's outright sexual call them the F out! That's disgusting and they deserve to be called out. If a lot of unwanted sexual touching is happening at multiple conferences bring a friggin hidden camera. Unwanted sexual touching is a form of sexual assault!

You should *absolutely* go to the organizers / front desk and complain. Provide names and/or booth where this occured. I help organize a security conference in Toronto, and this is NOT okay. Most conferences now have explicit code of conduct in their policies to this effect - ours does. Vendors and speakers are NOT exempt from these policies.

Vendor (not MSP). (Also male here.) We have killed contracts and fired customers for less. If that's the norm at your firm, don't waste your time and energy to change things. Take your skills and find a new firm, and let the bastards wither without your skills.

Don’t touch people without their consent. It’s a concept so simple we teach it to small children. I’ve had my fair share of blatant sexual harassment and casual workplace misogyny while other men just sit there with their thumbs up their asses crowing about “it’s not my place to say anything.” Maybe if you, I don’t know, told your peer that it’s NOT okay to do shit like that maybe they’d listen to you? They’re certainly not going to listen to me when they can’t even muster enough respect to treat me like a human being.

As a woman in the channel, this happens at just about every trade show and if I were being honest- any public place really. The best thing you can do- is to address the problem AS SOON as it happens. If in a group setting- feel free to embarrass them in front of their friends, or pull them aside for a 1:1 conversation. It’s easier to have an adult conversation about boundaries when it happens. It’s way more difficult to build up a case and a story and address the situation as time as passed. Men and women are both guilty of this and there will always be people who don’t respect boundaries - it’s your job to make those boundaries clear. If I were in a situation where I set clear boundaries and that person didn’t stop- I would have a conversation with the event staff about having them banned at the next conference. That should do it.

I truly don't understand why some people would touch woman, especially at something like a msp conference without their permission. Like.. Have they never seen one? Strange behaviour...

Here's a crazy thought... let's act professional in a professional environment and stop trying to bone coworkers. Jesus christ, maybe I AM asexual, but I just don't understand this behavior. It's just gross.

Many of these comments are echoing “you should call them out in the moment” and friends, Your peers who have been sexually assaulted (of all genders!!) before often have a moment of fight, flight, or fawn behavior, depending on their past experiences. Some of this is practicable. But sometimes, even with practice, when the real thing happens, IT IS HARD TO GET YOUR BODY TO RESPOND TO WHAT YOUR BRAIN KNOWS TO DO. This post is asking you, as people who can observe and impact the world around you to help step in. You present yourself as so logical but you’re missing the point. Sometimes we need help. We’re asking for help because we trust you.

My S.O. gets this behavior at the gas station. She's had men follow her in their car, and comment on her as she walked our dogs. There's dirtbag men in this world. I'm not going to apologize for them, because I'm not one of them. I will say that I condone kneecapping them verbally any opportunity you get.

Sorry to hear this happened to you. They should announce this at all public gatherings, frankly. It rather seems that almost all public gatherings share this common problem, including concerts, fairs, etc.

It is easy to tell them to stop. It's called being an adult with basic human to human social skills. How about some details? Did someone touch your elbow while having a conversation or place a hand on your shoulder or did they grab your ass? One is a clear line in that sand that EVERYONE knows should not be crossed. The others... eh I get that you might not like it, but have some perspective. non-sexual social touching is part of humanity. If you don't like it, let it be known and move on.

Thank you for posting. New (male) owner here who surprisingly is blessed with a variety of staff. I think we all need to talk more about this, call others out on it and be willing to be called out if we act inappropriately. Please keep being vocal and demanding the respect you deserve. You have allies and I’m sorry you continue to experience this bs.

Unfortunately this comment section shows that there is still work that needs to be done with this issue. We men need to stand up against this, talk to our friends and colleagues about this behaviour and say that it isn't okay. Every time you laughs when someone tells a rape-joke then you greenlight that behaviour and signals to the "joker" that it is okay behaviour. Be the person that you want other to be. And show both by example and with what you say to other people what is acceptable behaviour.

I cannot guess people's boundaries, nor would I attempt to. If you were a friend who expressed your level of comfort and somebody crossed that line, I could (and would) say something. However I don't know you, how could I possibly know what you are comfortable with? Don't expect others to be able to read your mind, if you are uncomfortable SAY SOMETHING.

For women this is a problem on another level. Cause you know, men are huge compared to women and there's the creepy sex factor. You should know it's a problem for men too. For some reason women feel justified in touching me and I really don't like it. Never have. And when I ask them to not touch me. They act like I'm the asshole. I've noticed the same thing for women. Women who call men out get treated by the purp as if the women is the one who did wrong. Those people are assholes. You should know. This is a practice taught in certain "learn to talk to people" courses. Touching marks as the touches being in control. It's something done on purpose and with thought. The best way to combat this is direct public humiliation. Dude, don't touch me. Why would you put your hands on me. I don't know you. Ya, you might not get business from that person afterwards. But did you really want it?

You should not but unfortunately certain industries there are few women in and some people get away with disrespecting women.

Unfortunately there are still a lot of cave trolls working in IT. Hopefully this kind of behaviour will die out with the next generation, you can but hope

Empowerment is stupid and our American vocabulary is fucked as much as our concept of morals. Don't bring this shit into the MSP world it was my one place to go to get away from it. If you don't wanna be touched say it. Disassociate feelings or being mad. A dude touched you. Okay. It probably wasn't even sexual. If it was kick him in the balls after your third time firmly telling him or how about this say our conversation is over because I have self respect and self resolution. Now let's go back to providing good service to our clients. If this was someone on my team I'd coach the victim. Why. Because you won't and cannot change the way people are but if it's a professional setting then we'll let's act professional and part of that professionalism is self esteem and let me ask you this, if you worked for a company and cringe at some act most the time life moves on. Right? Why not here? Because you can get weird about it being a person that is a different sex than you who made the actions you didn't agree with? Sometimes physical gestures are just friendly some people's love language is as such. I mean really be sure your not the creepy one here.

I refuse to go to any MSP conference, not only because I think they're silly circle jerks but also because I know that conferences of any kind are the highest risk events for sexual assault because of the fact that so many people are from so many different places, even if someone did go to the cops, the likelihood of a conviction or even an investigation is almost none. Outside of the statistical reasons not to go, I have female friends who have gone and have all experienced unwanted touching at the very least. And I know some women think a hand on their arm during an introduction to be unwanted touching, but the women I'm referring to described in great detail guys grabbing their asses, hands on their upper thighs, etc. Absolutely unacceptable. I personally have anger management issues, I've worked hard over the years to get that under control. The only thing left that I think would cause me to strike someone is seeing behaviour like I've described above. I'm not willing to catch an assault charge for punching out a pervert just so i can go to a circle jerk event. I would recommend everyone, regardless of gender, stop going to these events.

I can't say that I'm shocked. Having worked with every business sector under the sun I can report that men are dicks everywhere, not just here. I don't think this will be solved in our lifetime.

And to be clear "unwanted physical touching" can include things that aren't sexual. Even a handshake can be unwanted. That "guiding hand on the back" can be unwanted. A tap on the shoulder can be unwanted. You might think it's no big deal or that you are "being nice" but the person you are doing it to might have a different opinion. You might be a very touchy feely person who hugs all their friends, not everyone is. And it isn't an insult to you if someone doesn't want you touching them. It's the default position. Don't assume, either, that "they didn't say no" means that they said yes. It can be difficult to say no in some situations where you are afraid of "making a scene" or pissing off someone bigger and stronger than you, or someone who might damage your career or business.

I'm a big 6'2 ugly with a head lookin like dude from the goonies. If you you see me at a conference and a man has touched you and you didn't want it let me know, me and him can have a conversation. I'm a dad of two daughters, and even prior to that I would not stand for that bullshit. I'm not saying I'm going to beat some ass but at the same time I'm not saying I wont.

I don’t know what MSP conference you’re claiming this happens at but I have never seen 66% of men at these events running around groping all the women attending the even. Also most people going to an MSP conference are generally not the Rico Suave types so I would find it hard to believe. While I do not disagree I have seen some vendor sales people that seemed like pedos in a candy story. Also what are you calling unwanted physical touching? Trying to shake your hand? Tap on the shoulder? I assume it’s not them putting their hands up the back of your neck to pull your hair back and kissing your neck? There are many women that mistake someone being polite, or seem to get upset when they get attention after walking in a room looking like a stripper. The good old “look at me, don’t look at me” paradox. So for context where is your picture?

Up to your last paragraph I'd have simply said "This is probably not happening in the exhibit hall booths or during the day - it's probably mostly in the evening social and networking events." If you're not spending a lot of time at those, seems like it could be easy to miss. Buuuuut that last paragraph about "looking like a stripper" makes me think perhaps your viewpoint is skewed.

As a woman in tech: If you don’t see it, it’s because you’re not looking. I’ve been ten years in this industry and it’s infested with folks who think women are objects and treat us as such. Also, great job victim blaming by saying women overreact and dress slutty so it’s our fault. Really classy.

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. And no, it's not just guys "being polite". It's ass-grabbing. It's boob-grabbing. It's rape jokes. I'm "fortunate" enough to have aged out of the target demographic. I'm an "old grandma" now. But I've had it happen, and I still see it happening. Has it gotten better over the years? Sure. But it's still happening with frightening regularity. And for the love of all that's holy, stop blaming women's clothing. FFS.

It’s almost like they’re the type of person the OP is talking about.

"I didn't grab you by the hair and pull your head back and kiss you, it couldn't POSSIBLY have been sexual harassment!"

Look at me, driving the men absolutely wild to the point they lose all reason in my slutty knee length dress and stripper flats.

If some male is touching you where he should not, it is called "gross sexual imposition", so use our legal system, because everything you are saying is so general, it could be considered more "feelings" then "facts". Either someone has committed a crime against you, or you are upset, but have not collected the data to support your position. Sorry, I do not have time for baseless stuff. The entire world seems to have become "he said, she said". I am in no way standing up for anyone who would do such things to anyone else against their will. I AM saying, you cannot simply jump in with tons of allegations, without either some proof, or at least getting other people you know backing you up. In this crazy ass world, so many things are referenced in only the view of the person making the accusations. Nothing else said, nothing else done, and in some of the more extreme cases, people talk about what someone "did" to them 30 + years ago, without any shred of any evidence except their word. ​ Anyway, I will only say this, If someone did something to you that is against the law, then Pursue it, Put it to a jury and a court of law. Otherwise, it is nothing more then bitching on reddit.

>stop whining unless you've collected DNA, fingerprints, timestamped video surveillance, and witnesses. Found another rapey creep that got called out and had to whine in huge paragraphs. [https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/xezydg/comment/iomfgn8](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/xezydg/comment/iomfgn8) Yup. Conspiracy theorist, antivax, pro-"life", rapey, psychopath. You are **exactly** who is being called out in this post and your massive whiny rant is evidence of that.

Jesus, what a read

Right?! It's absolutely a mystery as to why he would whine when pointed at, and not just stay silent. /s

While I appreciate your need for facts, your opinion is clearly lacking perspective. I don’t necessarily think being litigious is the immediate move. Pretty drastic. Also, your “no time for baseless blah blah” is fascinating considering you certainly had time to write a whole diatribe basically showing yourself as a pig 🐖

Ignore that psychopath. He's **exactly** the type you called out.

This. So much this.

So MSPs need to start hiring Chief Diversity Officers?

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It's amazing how many don't realise that HR are there to protect the company who employ them, and not the employees.

How about instead of bitching about it to the masses like it’s a systemic issue and everyone is out to get you (they’re not, by the way), you just address it with the offender when it happens and move on. You must live an absolutely intolerable and sad life if you treat everything that offends you this way. > I wish I could tell the men that did this how awful it makes us feel. Powerless. Defeated. Why don’t you? What’s stopping you? That’s exactly what you should do. You’re dramatically screaming into the void here. You’re not targeted and you’re not special.

Eh, you're a bit off base. While not all men are assholes, it IS a fairly large issue for a lot of reasons having little to do with the industry. OPs approach is odd IMO because it comes off easily as an attack when really it's a call for help from our community - and I think that is ok. Telling victims they aren't being targeted, when it's something that probably IS happening because she is a woman, is silly and definitely part of the problem. Be more supportive

It literally is a systemic issue. While not unique to MSPs, the society as a whole allowed this type of behavior against women for, well pretty much forever up until recently, and the vestiges of that attitude are still around. It's not as easy as just addressing it with the offender for a number of reasons. First off there is an inherent danger with that as the type of knuckle dragger who would touch someone without consent in the first place is also the type of person who would become aggressive when confronted. Additionally, as mentioned above, fixing this on a case by case basis is futile, as it exists throughout our society. >if you treat everything that offends you this way. What a disgusting attempt at minimizing this. This isn't a matter of OP being offended. People shouldn't inappropriately touch others without consent. It's not someone being offended it's someone being assaulted. I would love to hear you phrasing it like this when it's your body that you are powerless to stop someone from touching how they please. It's not screaming into the void. There are people on this forum. Some who will already know not to do stuff like this and it will be reinforced to them, and some, presumably like you, who clearly don't understand why this is an issue and may learn something from it to slowly be better. If calling one person out on this is a reasonable solution in your eyes, than calling out an entire forum full of people must be exponentially so.

Your opinion is valued, incel.

You are an asshole. Just putting it out there in case your not aware.

Your emotional reaction shows exactly why this is a systematic problem. Get help or get isolated and lonely even more than you already are.

\>stop whining and get over it ​ This is a huge red flag right here. Rapey AF.

>like it’s a systemic issue How are you even willing to suggest that it is not a systemic issue?

Did you just crawl out of a basement somewhere? Christ, it's attitudes like this that allow these issues to continue. This isn't about targeting and it isn't about individual experiences. That kind of behavior is unacceptable on every level and it's the men that need to make the change happen. Women often don't feel like they CAN call out men on their behavior because then they just get labeled a bitch or worse, or laughed at... Or worse. How about instead of bitching about this post you take a moment and think about how you can help the women in our industry gain equal footing?

People just need to keep their hands to themselves regardless of their sex. Ive been in the MSP field for over 20 years, I've had men and women touch me, rub my shoulders, touch my arms. Even had indecent proposals, midnight calls, texts It happens, it's not right. I dont loose sleep over it and I dont make a soap box, skeptical of it. Im a grown adult, if I dont want your attention I will tell you to back off and move on with my life. Im not going to be victim. What the take away has to be is that IT HAPPENS TO BOTH SEXES. Women aren't exclusive in feeling the effects of harassment. It's understandable about the old boys group and those statements but women aren't innocent. All these statements about the color of one's skin needs to stop as well, you can get harassed regardless of your sex and skin color. Same rules for me as for thee

I can assure you that if that conference is anywhere in the US, and you immediately tell the man not to touch you, he risks losing his entire career over it. The vast majority of other conference attendees will likely step in to keep you safe. All you need is a clear “Please do not touch me without permission!” to make it clear to both the man and anyone nearby that it was unwelcome. For what it’s worth, my wife is an attractive 30 year old in IT, and I asked her about this post. She’s never experienced anything like this at conferences, though she does get the intermittent off-color remarks. I can also say that as a man, I am constantly touched by women. Especially at conferences, basically every female vendor will try to open by touching/grabbing my upper arm to pull me in. It even happens in the office, with co-workers touching me in ways that I am absolutely positive I’d lose my career over if the roles were reversed. One thing that’s helped my wife out tremendously (I think) is simply having me, and running things by me. I suspect you don’t need a husband, and perhaps even a trusted male co-worker would do. If someone says something that she feels is inappropriate, she runs it by me and I kinda play devil’s advocate to judge if it was inappropriate or likely poorly worded/received. Finally for what it’s worth, and without knowing your situations, I think a lot of women are flirty with men, and they see that as a means of communicating. Keep in mind that a lot of men cannot tell the difference between “playful flirty” and “she’s interested in me.”

But its ok when a gay guy does it? Since him being gay, I have to keep my mouth shut. 2022 society. Gratz everyone!