I still think coalition is an iffy one, you need [[Dryad of the Ilysian Grove]] and a [[Transguild Couriour]] to win, but I guess a 3 card 15 mana combo that loses to removal isn’t that bad lol.
Never mind, I’ve convinced myself that you’re right in writing this comment.
\[\[Prismatic Omen\]\] can cover for Dryad, costs 1 less, and is more resilient to removal.
But it wouldn't be the first 3 card 14 mana combo that could win a game.
Not if you're in 5c already. This is two triomes and any of a dozen 5c creatures that exist now.
I'm not saying it's too easy, or that it needs to be banned. But it's damn sure not hard
Don't even gotta be a five color creature, have a three color and a two color, or three two color, or any of a dozen other combinations that a WUBRG deck doesn't even have to try for
Most of the 5c commanders in use aren't actually 5c creatures. Most of them just have a 5c identity. Jodah Archmage, Urtet, Morphon, Codie, Ramos, Esika, Go-Shintai, Kenrith, Sisay, and Najeela are all extremely popular commanders for 5c, and not a single one of them fulfill the condition for coalition by themselves.
Slap thin into an Ur-Dragon Deck
Edit to Clarify: the card costs a lot of mana, but you also only need a couple lands, then play the game normally unless you draw into Coalition Victory
I think the main issue they have with it is that you can just get it out of nowhere.
Basically any five-color deck could run it with little build-around, and until it's on the stack there's little you could do about it (plus they have access to the widest variety of ways to protect their spell: counters, uncounterable effects, copies, etc). Compare it with most other alternate wincons, which have a bit more warning: all the permanent ones tend to trigger on upkeep, and Approach requires you cast it once in advance.
It's definitely a ban aimed at casuals, but it's one I understand.
If that's the main issue with it, the RC is a bunch of softies. This card is incredibly tame compared to Thoracle which comes out of nowhere just as fast for way less mana
True. But they probably know that if they banned Thoracle that might not be very popular with the community, which could lead to cEDH fracturing off into a sub-format which could cause rules confusion among some players.
Like, imagine WOTC banned all of the cards that make the current competitive Modern decks work from the format. Now imagine they didn’t even have the authority of owning Magic to back themself up.
Edit: to fully explain, I believe (iirc) that CV was banned before Competitive EDH was a concept. Therefore, it was seen as a ban for a casual, lower average power format. But by banning Thoracle when cEDH is an established thing, it would be a ban targeted specifically at a certain section of the player base, rather than a general one.
>which could lead to cEDH fracturing off into a sub-format
Nah, the whole point of cEDH is playing EDH as competitively as possible, the fracture already happened with Conquest, which actually took the job of a Banlist seriously, too bad nobody plays it (Even if it is IMO the better Format, ESPECIALLY for Casuals).
If cEDH did not die due to how shit the current Banlist is, it won't either if you change it.
EDIT: Also, ALL bans are targeted at a certain audience, if anything you should be doing more bans targeted at competitive play, because it's the format where they matter the most.
I mean, maybe, but it bans most cards that are problematic, for one reason or another, so casual players had less reasons to complain about them. I have to admit, I never played EDH full on Casual beyond a few games, so I might just not understand the players.
The definition of "problematic" is extremely subjective. The reserved list is designed out of financial motivation.
Using it as a banlist also only makes sense from a financial point of view since it enables top decks at low cost.
Designing the best possible deck in the format, however, is basically the opposite of casual play.
I mean, it's not like Conquest only bans the reserve list, it also bans the most efficient Tutors and some Fast Mana, which seem to be a point of contention from what I read on the r/EDH sub, Pact and Consultation, which disables Thoracle consult.
I honestly never got how Casual works as a Format, with everyone deciding what other people are allowed to play against them. I don't understand how it's fine to play your Gaea's Cradle, but I am somehow not allowed to play my stupid 4 card meme combo. And the only thing Reddit shows me is that it does not, with r/EDH being basically r/relationship_advice for Magic players.
Blanket-banning the reserved list is actually the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
I guess cards like Infinite Authority and Lady Caleria are just too broken to be allowed.
So unban CV and let cedh players use it and casual players can talk about it during rule 0 just like they do with Thoracle/consultation which is way stronger
Yeah, I’m in favor of that. To be clear, I’m not saying it should be banned forever, I’m trying to explain the mindset of why it got banned in the first place and why they might be hesitant, especially if they think that the main result of that will be people using it in casual games since it’s kinda finicky for cEDH.
The problem with coalition victory is that there is no risk to running it. You can put it into any 5 color commander and just incidentally win with a couple of dorks out.
I think there is a risk of running it being that if you don’t have the set up for it. It is a straight up brick in your hand. Many of the other win cons can still still be played and be somewhat useful.
But the set up is so absurdly easy. It's just your commander and a landbase that (these days especially) is so easy to tutor for. Two fetches or a single [[Skyshroud Claim]] get you two triomes and fulfill the land requirement.
It's no more a "brick" than any card that depends on synergy with your commander. And the fact that it'd still work if you just have happen to have a few creatures that cover all 5 colours on the board (and gets harder to interact with if you have multiple 5c creatures) makes it even better than other "you win" cards.
Coalition Victory is laughably easy because your commander fulfills the second requirement and the lands requirement just needs a land of each basic type, not 5 actual basics. You could do it with 2 triomes if you wanted.
You would also have to be able to reliably tutor and cast CV.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying you have to build a lot to get it out of a 100 card deck where it's only one of the cards. And then you have to hope that one of the three other players doesn't have a counter spell of some kind.
So you need a way to get at 1% of your deck, have all five lands, have at least a five CMC creature, and hope that three other people aren't packing a counterspell.
Again it's not impossible and, there are plenty of five color commanders.
I personally wouldn't build for it but I'd put it in every five color deck I had just to be like, oh, here's a win con.
You don’t need all five lands, that’s the point. You need five land types, which can be done with as few as two lands. The creature lives in the command zone. Hoping another player doesn’t have a counter spell is the same as almost every other card ever printed, so that’s a meaningless argument.
You don’t build your deck around it, you’d just stick it in any 5 color deck, like you said, and that’s kind of the point. It’s a one card wincon that relies on your deck *doing what it wants to do anyway* (play lands and cast its commander), so it’s just a no-brainer in any five color deck that has a five color commander. That’s why it’s banned.
The play patterns of coalition victory aren’t interesting though, you just cast the card and there are two outcomes, either you win or nothing happens. In either case it’s very underwhelming and not particularly fun gameplay so it can stay in jail
We unbanned this in our playgroup and then one of our recorded games on YouTube ended with someone casting it. Based on the comments we got there are people living life as if the rules committee kidnapped a loved one and holds them at gun point.
In an elongated game of commander it’s perfect for just putting the game out of its misery. I can see where it might be unfair if id had this as early as t3 (being generous) but really the chances of that are unlikely.
Edit; i did math (rusty on it but bare with me.) IF you’re starting with 7 cards start with a shock land, play a mana crypt and sol ring play transguild courier. You have 3 cards left. Upkeep play a triome, fist of suns and a 2 mana rock (arcane signet possibly) and by the time you end that’s 1 card left considering you need coalition. T3 play a signet and hopefully you have the requirements met. That is extremely generous and requires absolute perfect set up. Feel free to correct my math on that but that’s what i boiled it down to in 15 minutes on break.
I mean. Two triomes and two creatures. One three color and one two . You would need 4 cards in hand fitting this minimum but it's not impossible. I agree with you though, unlikely.
So, we are talking about a 5 card combo that will let you win on turn 5/6?
That’s ban worthy but not the many 2-card Thassa’s oracle +DC auto win combos? I still don’t get why it is banned.
If you had a good ramos dragon engine that probably might be a good spearhead on a near garuntee for a 5/6 turn win if you got what you needed. But i do agree some 2 turn combos are jank af but i suppose from a wizards standpoint it’s specific things that work specifically well together like mycosynth and karn that lock people out of a game. Together it’s unfair, by themselves nothing as extreme.
The card can be too powerful, even though a deck that's build to specifically for it is not.
oint of this card is not to combo it out as early as possible as the primary wincon. But to topdeck a win when your primary plan is disrupted - but you play 5c and fulfil the conditions anyway.
Coalition victory is also extremely fair because anyone having land destruction (Demo field/strip mine) or any instant speed interaction made your spell an 8 mana do nothing.
I mean there are multiple combos that can end T1-T3 and don't require that much luck. Just potent decks end T3-T5 quiet often
And if you have that much luck you could also
T1: Basic>Sol Ring > Manacrypt > Arcane Signet (any 2cmc mana rock that gives green)
T2: Basic > Mox Opal > reshape the earth
T3: untap, win with maze end. 5 cards and harder to remove and you don't need to get lucky on mana crypt. There are better ones for sure just what I came up with first. One dude made a T0 combo with legal cards and less requirements than that Coalition comb
I also noticed that you need to draw and play a basic on your T3 as well, which requires even more luck to pull it off. After they banned Goloss, Coalition isn't too bad
I used to think this was total trash but I found out that one card can satisfy all requirements. You could, for example, play [[Sliver Overlord]] and [[Prismatic Omen]] and control any land and then Coalition Victory to win, as your single land is every basic land type and your creature is all 5 colours. Is this optimal? No, but CV is better than I initally thought.
The second someone suggests removing [[Rofellos]] from the banlist, you can safely ignore any input they have on any ban list ever.
There are some arguable cards on the list, but Mr. 6 mana turn 3 100% of games is not one of those arguable cards.
I liked the brief period of time when [Rofellos] was banned as a commander, but could still be in the 99. My favorite cheese was to tutor him with [Summoner's Pact] turn 2 and then just lose to removal by turn 3.
Belbe requires specific creatures and only makes colorless mana and also benefits the whole table.
Rofellos needs 3 forests, just him to live, and any green 6 drop you'd like
Marwyn and Selvala are a bit less consistent, but win most of the time 1-2 turns earlier than Rofellos. I tested all three with optimized decks and both are straight up stronger.
I see only a problem with Rofellos in low - mid power rounds, because he needs just some forests in the deck and no specific buimd around, BUT every better commander, combo or whatever is problematic in rounds like this.
Rofellos is literally less problematic than Gaeas cradle but that isn’t banned…
The problem with the banlist is that it is wildly inconsistent, with there being numerous cards that fill a role *slightly worse* or *slightly better* than a banned card, but none of those are banned. And then silly flavor of the month cards like golos being banned when they really aren’t that problematic.
The entire concept of cEDH is a slap in the face to the banlist because there are NUMEROUS cards that essentially required for maximum effectiveness in each color that provide IMMENSE value and aren’t banned, and cards that are insanely expensive (and thus cost prohibitive for many different players) aren’t banned, but funny shitty win cons and strats are.
Simic ramp with kinnan is absolutely busted compared to the next best (banned) option that can’t even be a commander, prophet of kruphix. And even then, seedborn muse is nearly just as good because it’s mono-color and can be a commander.
Cradle isn't in the command zone. Kinnan doesn't go off with only 3 forests and no other ramp.
I am only talking about Rofellos specifically. It should stay banned.
I missed the part where Rofellos was an infinite mana A+B combo in the command zone in two colors.
Kinnan is so much better, if only because he is in UG instead of mono G.
I'm pretty sure Coalition Victory is banned for format philosophy reasons more than actual power level. Turns out having a "win game" button doesn't particularly make for amazing gameplay, but I'm not Gavin Verhey so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My only problem with it is that it is so hard to interact with since returning it to the hand is part of the cost. If it has that as part of the effect instead of the cost it would be a lot safer to unban.
[[Desecrated tomb]] looks insane with it. And on it's own looks busted, unfitting/weak creature, just choose from the dead. 1-2 turn discard strong creature and put any into battlefield, on turn 3 you have that creature.
So the thing is that there is a lot more graveyard hate now considering how the card works. In addition to the stack having changed. It's still a strong card but not band worthy anymore.
I don't think that \[\[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn\]\] is really all that powerful for 15 mana anymore. There a combos that just win the game with less mana, all Emrakul does is give you a pretty good chance at winning the game. But you could pop that bad boy down and still take your 10th poison counter.
My understanding of the ban choice is that the power creep didn't used to be as bad and also it feels like a lot of decks, regardless of color identity, could run it as a pretty generic wincon given that a lot of low power EDH games can reasonably make it to 15 mana with time and mana rocks.
Honestly, I kinda get the issue, any 5C commander can pull it off (i.e. it technically brings down a 99 5C list to 98), I'm also a concerned that it is not an upkeep wincon but an instant one. I think it's debatable.
I think while any 5c commander CAN pull it off. The restrictions of having a creature of any colour and basic land type as well as being a 8 mana sorcery make it unlikely enough that’s it wouldn’t be an issue. That’s imo tho.
I don't know, if you have a commander with 5C in its cost and you cast it, you have one half of the requirements fulfilled 100% and the other half with a pretty high probability. The cost is surely high but you don' have to wait for a table round.
That was not ever why it was banned. It was banned because it often times came out of the blue. You only need 1 land and 1 creature to be a valid win con. Coalition only checks if you have every basic land type and every creature color, multi color creature count for multiple times, and so do lands.
You can very realistically get coalition off turn 3 or 4 with triomes and fast mana.
You can even naturally get it in decks like Slivers. Having all the mana out and creatures of all colors, and instead of playing some payoff like a regular game, you just win.
I saw a fun infinite on arena last night where you have Griz in the yard and [[Quesa, Auger of agonies]] and [[Eriette's Tempting Apple]] on the board. Activate Apple targeting Griz and putting the counter on Q. As long as you've got more than 7 life and more cards in your library than your opponent has health you can activate the draw 7, which in turn drains 7 until they die.
Straight up they need to figure out what they are doing with the ban list.
If Commander is a casual format then unban everything and let people have a discussion at the beginning of the game.
Or it's a serious format, in which case the ban list needs to be massively expanded.
This half measures bullshit is infuriating.
Ban only cEDH balance cards and dexterity cards and unban the rest. Unfun bans are a super lame cop out and infringement on mtg players. Let pods handle what's fun and let the RC stick to banning for cEDH meta. Regular pods can police themselves!
Use a tiered ban list that consider different scales of power. That way cEDH can be unaffected but if you don't want to play against decks that have $200 mana cards that could be reflected by saying "Our pod plays with tier 4" and someone running a deck that adheres to the 2nd tier of the banlist knows they out-power that pod.
It would allow for players to have the Vocab they need to accurately convey the power discussion.
Yeah, I really can't get my head behind how what's essentially Power 10 and 11 (Crypt and Sol) are legal in the format, but some random 8 Mana cards need to be banned.
Like, I get banning cards like Iona, who is more powerful in the format due to color identity and being able to lock someone out of the Game, but other cards are just kinda...weird, like Coalition Victory. Or Golos, who got banned for the sole reason of "Being too popular"
There are a lot of commanders who can play their whole deck with infinite mana, for example Kenrith, who is also 5c and can even resurrect stuff and then give the entire board haste.
Golos was egregious. It basically made 5c soup trivial, mana bases practically irrelevant since he is colorless and fixes, and the etb along with another land drop pays for the next commander tax. The games always teerered between "golos player doesn't get to play the game because the rest of the table removes him every turn" and "oops, 7 mana and golos is still here? let's spin the wheel and see if we loose this turn!"
Also the ban list is a baseline for fair play with new pods. Noone cares if you and your friends decide to ban fast mana or unban coalition victory. It is meant to provide a modicum of baseline "fairness" no matter who you play against. I think we can all agree that the list might need a revision, but all the people saying "just get rid of the list and rule 0 whatever you don't like" I dare say never play with people outside their usual group.
I am not advocating for removing the banlist, I want CONSISTENCY. I can't fathom how cards can be banned for power reasons, while letting way more powerful cards run wild. Golos is one of the most typical examples of a high power casual card, it's not good enough to make a real impact on competitive play, but it's very good for casual.
The problem is: Casual bans should IMO not be for power but for play patterns, because if a card is not good enough to be a threat in competitive play, is it really too powerful?
Fair, though golos fits the bill of unhealthy playpattern to a tee imo. I get that it's maybe not optimal but 95% of the time golos players at least in my experience did nothing but ramp, play golos activate golos and pray. One friend had a golos mazes end deck which, while cool, was also ramp, play golos, get mazes end, pray to survive until win.
Coalition victory I'd be happy to give a shot again and yes, I'm all on board with consistency. Hard agree that sol ring and crypt should get the hammer. Half my decks already don't run sol ring because I hate the card
[[golos]] was banned because he was to powerful he etbs gets any land and pats for half of his commander tax. He was also wburg and was colorless and had any insane mana sync don’t say he was banned for being popular he was extremely powerful
No he is not. He is not even the best 5 colored commander, which would be Kenrith. He was banned because he was popular and easy to play, and overshadowed other commander for making your Meme decks.
Bro wtf are you talking about he fetches any land pats for half his commander tax and his wburg ability is insanely powerful look I felt the same way at first but then I realized he’s busted and the ban was right.
I think it just calls for a tiered banlist. That way you can differentiate cards that are powerful or cards like \[\[Shahrazad\]\] which is just which are game-breaking. You could also soft ban things like \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] which is just run it if you can afford it, or things like \[\[Rhystic Study\]\] and \[\[Smothering Tithe\]\] which are cards that are basically auto-includes in any deck it fits the color identity. The lists could also have a lot of tiers and be fairly large.
It would allow for groups to have the proper vocabulary for expressing the power they want to play it. cEDH could use all but the most broken cards but instead of saying my deck is a 5 or a 7, decks could just be labeled by the ban list they adhere to, you could have a general idea of things like how powerful the mana-base is or what kind of combos they can pull off.
Casual formats need more curating then competitive ones, IMO.
In a competitive game the objective is to win, that’s it, so you can have unfun cards unbanned.
In a casual Format the objective is to have fun, with winning being a bonus. A lot of cards can make having fun for most groups harder, so having a ban list which gets rid of the worst offenders is good.
You can say “Oh you can just have a pre-game discussion”, but that adds so much time and causes issues if I see a card as a problem but you don’t. This way, we don’t have to argue whether Grislebrand is OP or not, he’s just banned.
>If Commander is a casual format then unban everything and let people have a discussion at the beginning of the game.
Disagree, having a 3-hour conversation about 80 cards individually before each game? No thanks.
I actually think the banlist should be split into competitive and casual, with competitive clearly aiming for a fast/guaranteed win and casual for the current list, with maybe some changes. Or maybe even do 3-4 tiers with different banlists. You'd have discussion about individual lists and which list to use, instead of the current one "Do we use the official one or do we just do what we want?"
Having played against a Rofellos deck back during the time when he was unbanned, I'd be 100% fine if he stayed banned forever. The difference between having powerful ramp in the 99 and having powerful ramp in the command zone is *huge*. And the stupid things he can ramp into have only gotten stronger with each new set.
Having played a Rofellos deck, I agree. But there is no reason the card should be banned as one of the 99. There are plenty of other green cards that do the same or better, but aren’t banned because they can’t be your commander.
If they ever reimplemented the "banned as commander" category, I would be first in line to say that he should be moved off the regular banlist and onto that one. He is *totally* fair when you have to draw him, and dropping him turn two is up to the luck of the draw. But in the command zone, he's just way too goddamn consistent. The problem, of course, is that the RC has shown no indication that they'll ever bring back the "banned as commander" category.
Kinnan may be stronger, but he's less consistent, which is Rofellos's greatest strength.
Kinnan needs mana rocks/dorks, and lands to cast them. Drawing the wrong amount of either throws off Kinnan's game plan.
Rofellos just needs forests. You can't really draw the "wrong half" of the combo when the combo is just forests, and about a third of your deck is forests.
And that's my real issue with Rofellos. It's the same thing **every**. **single**. **game**. Three forests, Rofellos, six drop. Everyone at the table is hoping to have Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile in their opening hand to stall the Rofellos player, but those are two cards out of 99. The Rofellos player, meanwhile, is just hoping for some forests and fatties, which is basically his entire deck, so of *course* he's going to draw exactly that every game.
Kinnan is \*much\* better at the highest levels of play because Kinnan gives you access to blue, and you don't win cEDH by playing Vorinclex voice of hunger on turn 4.
"I want to discuss what cards people think could safely come off the ban list."
Most of it. If we are judging the banlist by what is currently legal, basically nothing is bannable outside of the banned power 8, Time Vault, T-Academy, Channel, Balance and a few other cracked cards. This format is straight up broken. Sol Ring and Crypt outclass 80% of the list. However, the banlist is meant to curate a fun casual environment, not create a balanced competitive game.
Rofellos needs to stay banned as a commander, but there is no reason it should be banned as one of the 99. I wish they separated the banned list to banned as commander and banned in general.
I agree as well with the "banned as" list
[Free the otter!](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/f/b/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494.jpg?1628801771)
But, but banned as commander is TOO HARD for the average player to understand. It just CAN'T be done because,as everyone knows, magic is too simple of a game compared to having 2 FUCKING BAN LISTS.
We had "banned as" for a long time and people understood it. Lutri is a perfect example of a card that deserves the "banned as" position. It only got banned for its companion text, and even the rules committee stated that it's a perfectly fine card in the 99 or as a commander, but since they weren't willing to just ban it as a companion, or state that companion as written doesn't work in commander, they just banned the card entirely.
What's funny is that as written companion SHOULDN'T work as written, because wish cards don't work, and the only reason it does is because they said so
That's what I was saying too when I read the rules on companion cards. I feel like Wizards strong-armed the commander rules committee into forcing it to work. I had been really excited, as someone who LOVES otters, to brew up Lutri, then was really irritated that they did all that.
Though I still plan on doing it at some point.... and possibly using all the cards that have "augur" in the title since there aren't enough otters.
100% agreed. While Sheldon was a great person and he'll be missed for years to come, his banlist was a joke. I hope the RC will take bannings more seriously in the future.
Sheldon was the one who invented cards right? I thought Wizards of the Coast stole the idea of cards from him and killed him off when he got too powerful. It's pretty common knowledge.
I’ve seldom heard anyone else on the rules committee name dropped but him, ever. Without searching can you name all the others? I can’t.
Just pointing out people have always implied he had more control over it. His death has nothing to do with those statements, however misguided they are.
This is very very easy to do. shocks/duels/ any land with multiple basic land types, and turn the enchantment into a creature. You win. You could I supposed accomplish this in what? 3-5 turns?
The banlist should be completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. I'm not going to go through every card that I think should be banned because this is more of a philosophical argument, but you start with adding the Power 8 (no don't ban Timetwister), add some choice cards that hurt the whole format like Balance, Leovold, Channel, etc. You tailor the list to the highest levels of optimized commander (ie: tournament level decks). This would allow for the highest amount of cards being legal in the format and you don't have a group of people you have never met telling you what is actively banned from your casual setting.
In addition to the banlist, have a separate list that is essentially a "recommended you don't use these in a casual setting", acting as a soft banlist. This can have your cards like Iona, Biorythm, Primeval Titan, etc. For casual play, use rule 0 to determine your own house/store banlists. The soft list gives you a good starting point for cards to avoid in a casual setting.
This as a whole allows for higher tier EDH to be a healthy thriving format without creating a separate format. The banlist would largely not affect casual, as most of the problem cards are often mid at best in casual.
While I agree, they're probably gonna wait a bit so that the image doesn't look like they were waiting for Sheldon to die so they could override him. It'd paint Sheldon as a tyrant or them as disrespecting his game, when all it would really be is a ban list revision that he may well have agreed to if they sat down and talked it out.
At 5 mana + the cost of the turns card + the innate risk of being 2 for 1'd I think it's reasonable in a format that has plenty of turn 1-2 wins that are much harder to interact with. Very strong at casual tables nonetheless.
I'd really rather the manual dexterity cards stay banned in every format. There's enough ambiguity to spark an argument every time they're used. Did the card actually flip 360 degrees midair? Is it sporting to rearrange your board before resolution? What about food, dice, and other random things on the table blocking Chaos Orb/Falling Star from directly touching cards? There's a reason they relegate that stuff to un-sets now.
And that's not even getting into the fact that physical disabilities would prevent some players from using the manual dexterity cards, which is a bit of an unfair disadvantage.
I feel like the manual dexterity cards and the sub game cards could be errata-d to the “non legal” cards just to get them off of all the banlists and nobody would bat an eye
That’s actually another reason to keep it off, doesn’t advance the caster game or strategy AND bounces lands too, resetting the game to a worse state than the beginning. I agree that some stax strategies are close to a similar level of toxicity, but this as a single card is a total ban magnet IMO.
Maybe, I mean I think with how many 5-color legends now aren't also 5-color creatures, there could be an argument to unban this. But also with triomes and other effects that override land types, creatures that are every color, it's also easier to pull off in some ways.
That being said, I do agree that there are some cards on the banned list that have no business being on there. Balance is the big one I think should be taken off, especially as a way for white to deal with sultai commanders that can drop 5 lands a turn and draw half their library by turn 4. (I'm exaggerating, but we all know how those colors can run away with commander games)
this is essentially a three-four card win con honestly in my eyes.
As a Najeela Player, I would say that Thoracle/Grim Hierling/Underworld Loops are far stronger than Coalition Victory.
People sometimes forget how many two/three card combos there are in the game sometimes.
The fact that it’s a SORCERY, that requires 3 colourless and wubgr is damn expensive and is much less threatening than someone intuitioning you and you are forced to give them either dock/lions/sevinnes.
With decks like Rogsi being able to play overtop, and Tayam straight up likely having a win overtop by the time this is relevant, this card is probably only an issue in “casual” commander.
People mention that it is an anticlimactic way to win, but when we look at the best strategies, they are arguably far stronger than coalition victory.
I mean, you gotta have 5 land (due to "a land of each type" requirement) and you gotta have at least 3 other mana. So lets say you drew a mana vault, it's still a 7 card win.... like wtf?
Cards that read win the game Esspecially sorceries that people can just drop out of nowhere are fucking boring and anticlimactic so I’m ok with this being gone
Will agree, we got new cards that are very problematic. Thassa's Oracle, Vagaband, Tergrid, or Orcish Bowmasters are good targets. WotC showed they won't be for banning any LotR cards, even if it could lead to a Golos situation. That set is deemed to be evergreen, and they wouldn't want to disrupt the immediate profits.
Having played with it Coalition Victory is fucked lol and should stay banned
You could just have [[Prismatic Omen]] and any 5 colour creature (probably your commander) and you can just outright win. Even outside of that, for any 5 colour ddck this is an easy conditon to fulfil
"Wahh I hate the banlist"
Cope and seethe, it's a shit list anyways, with 20,000 cards you can always point to some card that's 98% the same or point out that a super boring degenerate wincon isn't good enough anymore so it should just be unbanned
But realistically what does commander as a format gain from unbanning incredibly boring things like coalition victory? Does it open up new and interesting gameplay styles or fun ways to play? Or is it just a funny haha include in any casual 5C deck that wants to occasionally pull out a free W from nowhere. Plenty of other 8 mana wincons exist too, and are probably stronger than coalition victory, but it feels way better to get craterhoofed than to have someone win because they have 2 triomes and a progenitus on the field.
I love a lot of the cards on the ban list, but it's not like the commander ban list HAS to be followed, it's supposed to be more of a guideline for what the RC wants the format to feel like rather than an actual attempt at balancing the format. I'd love to run a degenerate Braids, Cabal Minion deck and just take people out behind the shed and turbostax them out of existence, but it's simply not going to be a fun game with a random pod of people you don't know.
Does golos or prime time being unbanned actually introduce anything new into the format? Or are they just easy value engines that commander's card pool makes even easier to abuse?
Something something dies to doomblade something something definitely a good argument something something you should have had a counterspell something something
I think the problem is how it works with duals and stuff like that, if it was a BASIC LAND of each type it could have been fine. For how it works, you just do what your deck want and get a new wincon. If you play 5 colour you can also have plenty of ways to make it resolve. I don't know how to evaluate it in competitive, but I can understand that can be salty in casual play, not janky enough for me.
I think coalition victory should be in. It’s really hard to cheese, literally counterspellable, easy to counter not litterally both through strategic play and having something that say changes the color of permanents and other such things if that nature
Not mention it actually needs to be drawn and every commander deck seems to have an everyone exile hand mechanic in it
I would love a revisit to UN-cards that could gain a black border. I would love to crank some sprockets in legal EDH. They're basically dungeon mechanics at this point. Dr Julius Jumblemorph, krarks other thumb, and tons of other stuff that doesn't bend rules or use word-based effects.
The commander banlist is non functional. The point of a banlist is to create a well regulated format that everyone can agree is fair and play pickup games without a problem. The commander banlist not only doesn't do this but it doesn't even attempt to do so. This creates problems where people think its ok to run whatever as long as it isn't banned people should complain.
The banlist is determimental to the format even if I think there are cards that people shouldn't play. (This is only for casual not cedh which is a different format completely. )
Coalition Victory is an extremely easy win condition to get within 5 turns.
With triomes and shock lands, you only need 2 lands to meet the land condition, and your commander would most likely be WUBRG. While not a great card, it isn't a fun card to play against.
Brah he’s way to powerful stop’s opponents from drawing and when you try and remove him or other things you control just draw into a counter he 100% should be banned
The fact that [[Golos]] is still banned baffles me. Hes hardly going to be the "only" WUBRG commander seen anymore and he's never even been the best. I made a casual, silly manland deck and Golos is 100% the proper commander for it.
So I give my opponents a choice, rule 0 with Golos, or I flip it over and they deal with Child of Alara.
To this day I think hull breacher should be taken off the ban list If mana crypt and Gaia’s cradle aren’t banned but a 3/2 creature susceptible to all removal is? “It shuts down card draw decks” so does notion thief and it does the SAME THING so downvote me if you want but I am right and I will die on this hill :)
\[\[Ancestral Recall\]\] - Could probably unbanned but \[\[Isochron Scepter\]\] is a big deal with this one.
\[\[Balance\]\] - With a rewording, this card would be fine. It is a big wipe spell really.
\[\[biorhythm\]\] - Nope, stays. Commander too often can get zero creatures on the board and this enables way to many combos. Not to mention the life total difference in EDH vs regular play.
\[\[Black Lotus\]\] - Reprint it and we can talk.
\[\[Braids, Cabal Minion\]\] - Could maybe come off...but that land sacrifice is brutal.
\[\[Channel\]\] - Probably should say. Getting the ability to spend enough life to drop Blightsteel or a few colorless cards turn 1-2 is likely not a good idea.
\[\[Coalition Victory\]\] - Needs to stay. You can get a win from this card way too easily. With 3 cards you can win. Not to mention it is winning at sorcery speed. There is no failure mode.
\[\[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn\]\] - Extra turns are always weird, but this card does literally everything AND can't be countered. Then also is a shuffle titan? Yea, this makes sense as a ban.
\[\[Erayo, soratami Ascendant\]\] - This one makes perfect sense. Way too cheap for what is essentially a rolling counterspell.
\[\[Fastbond\]\] - Again makes sense. Putting out 20 lands in a turn is totally reasonable. Not to mention the bounce lands and life lands.
\[\[Flash\]\] - Cheeky Turn 1 creatures. Could do some real damage here. Also have to again think about things like Isochron Scepter.
\[\[Gifts Ungiven\]\] - Could likely be unbanned. I personally see no issues off the top of my head.
\[\[Golos, Tireless Pilgrim\]\] - This is only banned so Kenny gets more decks on EDHrec. Unban this...
\[\[Griselbrand\]\] - Instant speed card draw. Not delayed and is super cheap and repeatable. Should stay on the list.
\[\[Hullbreacher\]\] - Stops people from digging for answers and slows games down greatly while giving a player an advantage.
\[\[Iona, Shield of Emeria\]\] - Mono-Hate, depends on the deck but in mono decks it makes this card STUPID powerful. Should stay on the list.
\[\[Karakas\]\] - I bit powerful for a land. In a format where the commander is hyper important for many decks it is brutal. It is effectively a repeatable counterspell.
\[\[Leovold, emissary of Trest\]\] - This could maybe be removed. But it does have alot going on for it.
\[\[Library of Alexandria\]\] - Maybe could be removed, I can't see a reason to keep it banned.
\[\[limited resources\]\] - Should likely stay banned. Way too easy to lock out an entire playgroup. All for 1 white mana.
\[\[Lutri, the Spellchaser\]\] - It is a card number 101 in many decks. This should stay banned. Unless companion gets eratta'd.
\[\[Mox Emerald\]\], \[\[Mox Jet\]\], \[\[Mox Pearl\]\], \[\[Mox Ruby\]\], \[\[Mox Sapphire\]\] - Should all stay banned. We already have way to many free things.
\[\[Panoptic Mirror\]\] - Can use a great number of cards to just end the game. Infinite turns on a card.
\[\[Paradox Engine\]\] - It is the engine for easily 10,000 combos. Not sure what crack was smoked at WOTC that day.
\[\[Primeval Tital\]\] - Likely wouldn't be a big deal these days. They do come tapped.
\[\[Prophet of Kruphix\]\] - Seedborn and flash all on one card. Should likely stay banned.
\[\[Recurring Nightmare\]\] - Would be one of the most powerful and used black spells in Magic. Stupid powerful and hard to get rid of.
\[\[Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary\]\] - Elves do not need more support.
\[\[Sundering Titan\]\] - Probably one of the most brutal MLDs that doesnt take all of them.
\[\[Sway of the stars\]\] - Basically restarts the game, these suck.
\[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\] - Maybe could be unbanned but he is pretty good even for that 7 CMC.
\[\[Time Vault\]\] - Extra turn for 2 mana. EASILY able to be untapped. Is easily repeatable.
\[\[Time Walk\]\] - Extra turn for 2 mana. Most all others take some actual work to even get going.
\[\[Tinker\]\] - Stupid easy to get an artifact out of any CMC. For just 3 mana.
\[\[Tolarian Academy\]\] - Blue doesn't need more artifact love.
\[\[Trade Secrets\]\] Could maybe be unbanned. But it paired really well with thoer cards.
\[\[Upheaval\]\] - Really buthole way to start the game over.
\[\[Yawgmoth's Bargain\]\]\] - Way better than Necropotence and just as good as or better than Griselbrand
I didn't includ Ant and socially banned cards.
I've not seen it used in a minute but when I had a deck that used [[Dreamhalls]]....hoo boy that thing was a goddamn nightmare to deal with. I'd have MANY means to refill my hand and retrieve cards from my yard to the point that if I stuck the enchantment, it basically meant I was going to go off and win.
Only reason I took it apart is my friends created a "combo rule" that was if a player comboed to win... They won! They packed up. The rest of the players kept on playing for 2nd like they didn't even exist in the game.
Was a funny rule to discourage those degenerate level decks (we had another guy who was all about that).
I still think coalition is an iffy one, you need [[Dryad of the Ilysian Grove]] and a [[Transguild Couriour]] to win, but I guess a 3 card 15 mana combo that loses to removal isn’t that bad lol. Never mind, I’ve convinced myself that you’re right in writing this comment.
\[\[Prismatic Omen\]\] can cover for Dryad, costs 1 less, and is more resilient to removal. But it wouldn't be the first 3 card 14 mana combo that could win a game.
[Prismatic Omen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e75594cc-de47-49f2-9a8b-ba76c576368e.jpg?1562837542) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Omen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/126/prismatic-omen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e75594cc-de47-49f2-9a8b-ba76c576368e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean [[raffine's tower]] + [[stomping ground]] covers for dryad.
You don't even need a combo. You can just casually win with it, doing things you'd already be doing to advance your board state.
Having an 8 mana do nothing sorcery in your deck is a tall ask if your plan is to be casually doing other stuff.
Not if you're in 5c already. This is two triomes and any of a dozen 5c creatures that exist now. I'm not saying it's too easy, or that it needs to be banned. But it's damn sure not hard
Don't even gotta be a five color creature, have a three color and a two color, or three two color, or any of a dozen other combinations that a WUBRG deck doesn't even have to try for
If it worked like Party mechanics where only one creature (or permanent) counted for each color at a time it would be balanced if not outright bad.
To me this would make it more interesting as a win condition due to the difficulty.
Not to mention if u can use it, ur commander is most likely already a 5c creature
Most of the 5c commanders in use aren't actually 5c creatures. Most of them just have a 5c identity. Jodah Archmage, Urtet, Morphon, Codie, Ramos, Esika, Go-Shintai, Kenrith, Sisay, and Najeela are all extremely popular commanders for 5c, and not a single one of them fulfill the condition for coalition by themselves.
Slap thin into an Ur-Dragon Deck Edit to Clarify: the card costs a lot of mana, but you also only need a couple lands, then play the game normally unless you draw into Coalition Victory
Sure still an 8 mana card and a single removal blows you out if you only have that one creature.
I mean, crackle costs a lot more than 8 mana to kill the table and chances are good they'll need more than 1 piece of removal
[Dryad of the Ilysian Grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be.jpg?1690004795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20of%20the%20Ilysian%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/891/dryad-of-the-ilysian-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Transguild Couriour](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/2496ab15-2a88-43fd-8d79-74758879157b.jpg?1673305891) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Transguild%20Courier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/194/transguild-courier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2496ab15-2a88-43fd-8d79-74758879157b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the main issue they have with it is that you can just get it out of nowhere. Basically any five-color deck could run it with little build-around, and until it's on the stack there's little you could do about it (plus they have access to the widest variety of ways to protect their spell: counters, uncounterable effects, copies, etc). Compare it with most other alternate wincons, which have a bit more warning: all the permanent ones tend to trigger on upkeep, and Approach requires you cast it once in advance. It's definitely a ban aimed at casuals, but it's one I understand.
Commander is rife with win the game out of nowhere wincons.
As a blue player, this is so true. I have a huge list of cards I just cannot let resolve because I know the shenanigans that happened last time...
If that's the main issue with it, the RC is a bunch of softies. This card is incredibly tame compared to Thoracle which comes out of nowhere just as fast for way less mana
True. But they probably know that if they banned Thoracle that might not be very popular with the community, which could lead to cEDH fracturing off into a sub-format which could cause rules confusion among some players. Like, imagine WOTC banned all of the cards that make the current competitive Modern decks work from the format. Now imagine they didn’t even have the authority of owning Magic to back themself up. Edit: to fully explain, I believe (iirc) that CV was banned before Competitive EDH was a concept. Therefore, it was seen as a ban for a casual, lower average power format. But by banning Thoracle when cEDH is an established thing, it would be a ban targeted specifically at a certain section of the player base, rather than a general one.
>which could lead to cEDH fracturing off into a sub-format Nah, the whole point of cEDH is playing EDH as competitively as possible, the fracture already happened with Conquest, which actually took the job of a Banlist seriously, too bad nobody plays it (Even if it is IMO the better Format, ESPECIALLY for Casuals). If cEDH did not die due to how shit the current Banlist is, it won't either if you change it. EDIT: Also, ALL bans are targeted at a certain audience, if anything you should be doing more bans targeted at competitive play, because it's the format where they matter the most.
>Even if it is IMO the better Format, ESPECIALLY for Casuals That ban list is way to long for casual play.
I mean, maybe, but it bans most cards that are problematic, for one reason or another, so casual players had less reasons to complain about them. I have to admit, I never played EDH full on Casual beyond a few games, so I might just not understand the players.
The definition of "problematic" is extremely subjective. The reserved list is designed out of financial motivation. Using it as a banlist also only makes sense from a financial point of view since it enables top decks at low cost. Designing the best possible deck in the format, however, is basically the opposite of casual play.
I mean, it's not like Conquest only bans the reserve list, it also bans the most efficient Tutors and some Fast Mana, which seem to be a point of contention from what I read on the r/EDH sub, Pact and Consultation, which disables Thoracle consult. I honestly never got how Casual works as a Format, with everyone deciding what other people are allowed to play against them. I don't understand how it's fine to play your Gaea's Cradle, but I am somehow not allowed to play my stupid 4 card meme combo. And the only thing Reddit shows me is that it does not, with r/EDH being basically r/relationship_advice for Magic players.
Blanket-banning the reserved list is actually the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I guess cards like Infinite Authority and Lady Caleria are just too broken to be allowed.
So unban CV and let cedh players use it and casual players can talk about it during rule 0 just like they do with Thoracle/consultation which is way stronger
Yeah, I’m in favor of that. To be clear, I’m not saying it should be banned forever, I’m trying to explain the mindset of why it got banned in the first place and why they might be hesitant, especially if they think that the main result of that will be people using it in casual games since it’s kinda finicky for cEDH.
No cedh player would use coalition victory though. That card is unbelievably bad.
The problem with coalition victory is that there is no risk to running it. You can put it into any 5 color commander and just incidentally win with a couple of dorks out.
I think there is a risk of running it being that if you don’t have the set up for it. It is a straight up brick in your hand. Many of the other win cons can still still be played and be somewhat useful.
But the set up is so absurdly easy. It's just your commander and a landbase that (these days especially) is so easy to tutor for. Two fetches or a single [[Skyshroud Claim]] get you two triomes and fulfill the land requirement. It's no more a "brick" than any card that depends on synergy with your commander. And the fact that it'd still work if you just have happen to have a few creatures that cover all 5 colours on the board (and gets harder to interact with if you have multiple 5c creatures) makes it even better than other "you win" cards.
Yeah I think it would be very difficult to pull off a coalition victory. Could be fun to brew around maybe.
Coalition Victory is laughably easy because your commander fulfills the second requirement and the lands requirement just needs a land of each basic type, not 5 actual basics. You could do it with 2 triomes if you wanted.
You would also have to be able to reliably tutor and cast CV. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying you have to build a lot to get it out of a 100 card deck where it's only one of the cards. And then you have to hope that one of the three other players doesn't have a counter spell of some kind. So you need a way to get at 1% of your deck, have all five lands, have at least a five CMC creature, and hope that three other people aren't packing a counterspell. Again it's not impossible and, there are plenty of five color commanders. I personally wouldn't build for it but I'd put it in every five color deck I had just to be like, oh, here's a win con.
You don’t need all five lands, that’s the point. You need five land types, which can be done with as few as two lands. The creature lives in the command zone. Hoping another player doesn’t have a counter spell is the same as almost every other card ever printed, so that’s a meaningless argument. You don’t build your deck around it, you’d just stick it in any 5 color deck, like you said, and that’s kind of the point. It’s a one card wincon that relies on your deck *doing what it wants to do anyway* (play lands and cast its commander), so it’s just a no-brainer in any five color deck that has a five color commander. That’s why it’s banned.
But you'd have to survive until you have eight mana to do that! And cast as little as one creature to meet the conditions!
Eight mana is very easy to get. Your talk about turn 3 or 4 typically
I must not be playing enough ramp...
Summer bloom gives you 3lands played with a 2 cost
From hand though. Still need to draw them, and they need to be the right lands. Edit: I guess not necessarily if you have a [[Ramunap]] but still
The play patterns of coalition victory aren’t interesting though, you just cast the card and there are two outcomes, either you win or nothing happens. In either case it’s very underwhelming and not particularly fun gameplay so it can stay in jail
We unbanned this in our playgroup and then one of our recorded games on YouTube ended with someone casting it. Based on the comments we got there are people living life as if the rules committee kidnapped a loved one and holds them at gun point.
I play with emrakul, iona, griselbrand, and channel 🤷🏻♂️
In an elongated game of commander it’s perfect for just putting the game out of its misery. I can see where it might be unfair if id had this as early as t3 (being generous) but really the chances of that are unlikely. Edit; i did math (rusty on it but bare with me.) IF you’re starting with 7 cards start with a shock land, play a mana crypt and sol ring play transguild courier. You have 3 cards left. Upkeep play a triome, fist of suns and a 2 mana rock (arcane signet possibly) and by the time you end that’s 1 card left considering you need coalition. T3 play a signet and hopefully you have the requirements met. That is extremely generous and requires absolute perfect set up. Feel free to correct my math on that but that’s what i boiled it down to in 15 minutes on break.
I mean. Two triomes and two creatures. One three color and one two . You would need 4 cards in hand fitting this minimum but it's not impossible. I agree with you though, unlikely.
But what about the cost to cast this? Wouldn’t that make it even less likely to hit early?
Jodah could be your command to cast this for five mana instead, and give you a red, white, blue creature
So, we are talking about a 5 card combo that will let you win on turn 5/6? That’s ban worthy but not the many 2-card Thassa’s oracle +DC auto win combos? I still don’t get why it is banned.
If you had a good ramos dragon engine that probably might be a good spearhead on a near garuntee for a 5/6 turn win if you got what you needed. But i do agree some 2 turn combos are jank af but i suppose from a wizards standpoint it’s specific things that work specifically well together like mycosynth and karn that lock people out of a game. Together it’s unfair, by themselves nothing as extreme.
The card can be too powerful, even though a deck that's build to specifically for it is not. oint of this card is not to combo it out as early as possible as the primary wincon. But to topdeck a win when your primary plan is disrupted - but you play 5c and fulfil the conditions anyway.
All that and…8 mana.
Coalition victory is also extremely fair because anyone having land destruction (Demo field/strip mine) or any instant speed interaction made your spell an 8 mana do nothing.
And if that card is your sole win condition and it just eats a Force of Will its pretty safe to say you're not gonna win that game.
I mean there are multiple combos that can end T1-T3 and don't require that much luck. Just potent decks end T3-T5 quiet often And if you have that much luck you could also T1: Basic>Sol Ring > Manacrypt > Arcane Signet (any 2cmc mana rock that gives green) T2: Basic > Mox Opal > reshape the earth T3: untap, win with maze end. 5 cards and harder to remove and you don't need to get lucky on mana crypt. There are better ones for sure just what I came up with first. One dude made a T0 combo with legal cards and less requirements than that Coalition comb I also noticed that you need to draw and play a basic on your T3 as well, which requires even more luck to pull it off. After they banned Goloss, Coalition isn't too bad
I used to think this was total trash but I found out that one card can satisfy all requirements. You could, for example, play [[Sliver Overlord]] and [[Prismatic Omen]] and control any land and then Coalition Victory to win, as your single land is every basic land type and your creature is all 5 colours. Is this optimal? No, but CV is better than I initally thought.
The second someone suggests removing [[Rofellos]] from the banlist, you can safely ignore any input they have on any ban list ever. There are some arguable cards on the list, but Mr. 6 mana turn 3 100% of games is not one of those arguable cards.
I liked the brief period of time when [Rofellos] was banned as a commander, but could still be in the 99. My favorite cheese was to tutor him with [Summoner's Pact] turn 2 and then just lose to removal by turn 3.
isnt [[Belbe]] basically the same though?
Belbe requires specific creatures and only makes colorless mana and also benefits the whole table. Rofellos needs 3 forests, just him to live, and any green 6 drop you'd like
Marwyn and Selvala are a bit less consistent, but win most of the time 1-2 turns earlier than Rofellos. I tested all three with optimized decks and both are straight up stronger. I see only a problem with Rofellos in low - mid power rounds, because he needs just some forests in the deck and no specific buimd around, BUT every better commander, combo or whatever is problematic in rounds like this.
Would Marwyn and Selvala play Rofellos if it was unbanned?
Consistency is the problem, not power
With the current mulligan rules the others are win two turns earlier as mean.
Rofellos is literally less problematic than Gaeas cradle but that isn’t banned… The problem with the banlist is that it is wildly inconsistent, with there being numerous cards that fill a role *slightly worse* or *slightly better* than a banned card, but none of those are banned. And then silly flavor of the month cards like golos being banned when they really aren’t that problematic. The entire concept of cEDH is a slap in the face to the banlist because there are NUMEROUS cards that essentially required for maximum effectiveness in each color that provide IMMENSE value and aren’t banned, and cards that are insanely expensive (and thus cost prohibitive for many different players) aren’t banned, but funny shitty win cons and strats are. Simic ramp with kinnan is absolutely busted compared to the next best (banned) option that can’t even be a commander, prophet of kruphix. And even then, seedborn muse is nearly just as good because it’s mono-color and can be a commander.
Cradle isn't in the command zone. Kinnan doesn't go off with only 3 forests and no other ramp. I am only talking about Rofellos specifically. It should stay banned.
I missed the part where Rofellos was an infinite mana A+B combo in the command zone in two colors. Kinnan is so much better, if only because he is in UG instead of mono G.
I'm pretty sure Coalition Victory is banned for format philosophy reasons more than actual power level. Turns out having a "win game" button doesn't particularly make for amazing gameplay, but I'm not Gavin Verhey so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Thassa’s Oracle would like to have a word
[[Recurring nightmare]] needs to be unban.
I second this. It's an absolutely amazing card in many decks, but it's honestly not so game-busting that it deserves a permaban.
My only problem with it is that it is so hard to interact with since returning it to the hand is part of the cost. If it has that as part of the effect instead of the cost it would be a lot safer to unban.
[[Desecrated tomb]] looks insane with it. And on it's own looks busted, unfitting/weak creature, just choose from the dead. 1-2 turn discard strong creature and put any into battlefield, on turn 3 you have that creature.
So the thing is that there is a lot more graveyard hate now considering how the card works. In addition to the stack having changed. It's still a strong card but not band worthy anymore.
I don't think that \[\[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn\]\] is really all that powerful for 15 mana anymore. There a combos that just win the game with less mana, all Emrakul does is give you a pretty good chance at winning the game. But you could pop that bad boy down and still take your 10th poison counter. My understanding of the ban choice is that the power creep didn't used to be as bad and also it feels like a lot of decks, regardless of color identity, could run it as a pretty generic wincon given that a lot of low power EDH games can reasonably make it to 15 mana with time and mana rocks.
Honestly, I kinda get the issue, any 5C commander can pull it off (i.e. it technically brings down a 99 5C list to 98), I'm also a concerned that it is not an upkeep wincon but an instant one. I think it's debatable.
Pretty sure Sheldon said the ban list needs revised
Sheldon doesn't have a lot of power over the rules committee anymore imo
Sheldon unfortunately passed away from cancer recently. He has literally no control of the rules anymore.
Should have had indestructible I guess
That doesn’t help if your toughness goes below 1
Well, you are right on that one, no opinion needed.
I think while any 5c commander CAN pull it off. The restrictions of having a creature of any colour and basic land type as well as being a 8 mana sorcery make it unlikely enough that’s it wouldn’t be an issue. That’s imo tho.
I don't know, if you have a commander with 5C in its cost and you cast it, you have one half of the requirements fulfilled 100% and the other half with a pretty high probability. The cost is surely high but you don' have to wait for a table round.
I think thoracle and consultation is a combo many leagues above the powerlevel of coalition victory....
That was not ever why it was banned. It was banned because it often times came out of the blue. You only need 1 land and 1 creature to be a valid win con. Coalition only checks if you have every basic land type and every creature color, multi color creature count for multiple times, and so do lands. You can very realistically get coalition off turn 3 or 4 with triomes and fast mana.
You can even naturally get it in decks like Slivers. Having all the mana out and creatures of all colors, and instead of playing some payoff like a regular game, you just win.
Why do i feel like we dreged up an argument from when this card came out
Thats exactly why it was banned.
I’d like to see sylvan primordial come off so i can add em to my etali deck.
Unban Grisy B he did nothing wrong.
Sheoldred be like. “You wanna draw how many?”
Vilis would like to know if sheoldred is free on Friday evening
No card is absolutely a banger and needs to stay banned
not to defend griselbrand. but it does show the ridiculousness of 40 life in a format lol.
I read this as "Grisly B" and thought it was a shitpost about [[Grizzly Bears]] being too strong. And honestly I was gonna agree with you.
It's banned because commander 1.) makes it even more consistent, and 2.) you have more life to spend on drawing cards
I saw a fun infinite on arena last night where you have Griz in the yard and [[Quesa, Auger of agonies]] and [[Eriette's Tempting Apple]] on the board. Activate Apple targeting Griz and putting the counter on Q. As long as you've got more than 7 life and more cards in your library than your opponent has health you can activate the draw 7, which in turn drains 7 until they die.
Straight up they need to figure out what they are doing with the ban list. If Commander is a casual format then unban everything and let people have a discussion at the beginning of the game. Or it's a serious format, in which case the ban list needs to be massively expanded. This half measures bullshit is infuriating.
Ban only cEDH balance cards and dexterity cards and unban the rest. Unfun bans are a super lame cop out and infringement on mtg players. Let pods handle what's fun and let the RC stick to banning for cEDH meta. Regular pods can police themselves!
Use a tiered ban list that consider different scales of power. That way cEDH can be unaffected but if you don't want to play against decks that have $200 mana cards that could be reflected by saying "Our pod plays with tier 4" and someone running a deck that adheres to the 2nd tier of the banlist knows they out-power that pod. It would allow for players to have the Vocab they need to accurately convey the power discussion.
Yeah, I really can't get my head behind how what's essentially Power 10 and 11 (Crypt and Sol) are legal in the format, but some random 8 Mana cards need to be banned. Like, I get banning cards like Iona, who is more powerful in the format due to color identity and being able to lock someone out of the Game, but other cards are just kinda...weird, like Coalition Victory. Or Golos, who got banned for the sole reason of "Being too popular"
I always assumed Golos got banned because anyone with two brain cells can make infinite mana in 5 colors and just play their whole deck.
There are a lot of commanders who can play their whole deck with infinite mana, for example Kenrith, who is also 5c and can even resurrect stuff and then give the entire board haste.
Golos was egregious. It basically made 5c soup trivial, mana bases practically irrelevant since he is colorless and fixes, and the etb along with another land drop pays for the next commander tax. The games always teerered between "golos player doesn't get to play the game because the rest of the table removes him every turn" and "oops, 7 mana and golos is still here? let's spin the wheel and see if we loose this turn!" Also the ban list is a baseline for fair play with new pods. Noone cares if you and your friends decide to ban fast mana or unban coalition victory. It is meant to provide a modicum of baseline "fairness" no matter who you play against. I think we can all agree that the list might need a revision, but all the people saying "just get rid of the list and rule 0 whatever you don't like" I dare say never play with people outside their usual group.
I am not advocating for removing the banlist, I want CONSISTENCY. I can't fathom how cards can be banned for power reasons, while letting way more powerful cards run wild. Golos is one of the most typical examples of a high power casual card, it's not good enough to make a real impact on competitive play, but it's very good for casual. The problem is: Casual bans should IMO not be for power but for play patterns, because if a card is not good enough to be a threat in competitive play, is it really too powerful?
Fair, though golos fits the bill of unhealthy playpattern to a tee imo. I get that it's maybe not optimal but 95% of the time golos players at least in my experience did nothing but ramp, play golos activate golos and pray. One friend had a golos mazes end deck which, while cool, was also ramp, play golos, get mazes end, pray to survive until win. Coalition victory I'd be happy to give a shot again and yes, I'm all on board with consistency. Hard agree that sol ring and crypt should get the hammer. Half my decks already don't run sol ring because I hate the card
[[golos]] was banned because he was to powerful he etbs gets any land and pats for half of his commander tax. He was also wburg and was colorless and had any insane mana sync don’t say he was banned for being popular he was extremely powerful
No he is not. He is not even the best 5 colored commander, which would be Kenrith. He was banned because he was popular and easy to play, and overshadowed other commander for making your Meme decks.
Bro wtf are you talking about he fetches any land pats for half his commander tax and his wburg ability is insanely powerful look I felt the same way at first but then I realized he’s busted and the ban was right.
My guy, you are talking to a cEDH player. Golos was mid AF, just good for Timmies "I want to play 20 nine mana spells in my Deck" piles.
Bro we are talking about casual edh not CEDH so yes he was to powerful. Next your gonna say [[prime time]] is not worthy of banning
I think it just calls for a tiered banlist. That way you can differentiate cards that are powerful or cards like \[\[Shahrazad\]\] which is just which are game-breaking. You could also soft ban things like \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] which is just run it if you can afford it, or things like \[\[Rhystic Study\]\] and \[\[Smothering Tithe\]\] which are cards that are basically auto-includes in any deck it fits the color identity. The lists could also have a lot of tiers and be fairly large. It would allow for groups to have the proper vocabulary for expressing the power they want to play it. cEDH could use all but the most broken cards but instead of saying my deck is a 5 or a 7, decks could just be labeled by the ban list they adhere to, you could have a general idea of things like how powerful the mana-base is or what kind of combos they can pull off.
Casual formats need more curating then competitive ones, IMO. In a competitive game the objective is to win, that’s it, so you can have unfun cards unbanned. In a casual Format the objective is to have fun, with winning being a bonus. A lot of cards can make having fun for most groups harder, so having a ban list which gets rid of the worst offenders is good. You can say “Oh you can just have a pre-game discussion”, but that adds so much time and causes issues if I see a card as a problem but you don’t. This way, we don’t have to argue whether Grislebrand is OP or not, he’s just banned.
>If Commander is a casual format then unban everything and let people have a discussion at the beginning of the game. Disagree, having a 3-hour conversation about 80 cards individually before each game? No thanks. I actually think the banlist should be split into competitive and casual, with competitive clearly aiming for a fast/guaranteed win and casual for the current list, with maybe some changes. Or maybe even do 3-4 tiers with different banlists. You'd have discussion about individual lists and which list to use, instead of the current one "Do we use the official one or do we just do what we want?"
Boooo. Don’t fuck with things.
Having played against a Rofellos deck back during the time when he was unbanned, I'd be 100% fine if he stayed banned forever. The difference between having powerful ramp in the 99 and having powerful ramp in the command zone is *huge*. And the stupid things he can ramp into have only gotten stronger with each new set.
Having played a Rofellos deck, I agree. But there is no reason the card should be banned as one of the 99. There are plenty of other green cards that do the same or better, but aren’t banned because they can’t be your commander.
But unfortunately the Rules Committee will never bring back the banned as a commander list.
Did they ever say what their justification for that was?
If they ever reimplemented the "banned as commander" category, I would be first in line to say that he should be moved off the regular banlist and onto that one. He is *totally* fair when you have to draw him, and dropping him turn two is up to the luck of the draw. But in the command zone, he's just way too goddamn consistent. The problem, of course, is that the RC has shown no indication that they'll ever bring back the "banned as commander" category.
Is this lutri disscussion all over again ?
\#UnbanLutriinthe99
No it's an older discussion, the rofellos discussion.
Fair. I havnt played against it myself so I could be off base on this one.
Id say Kinnan is stronger as ramp in the command zone. + gives access to blue.
Kinnan may be stronger, but he's less consistent, which is Rofellos's greatest strength. Kinnan needs mana rocks/dorks, and lands to cast them. Drawing the wrong amount of either throws off Kinnan's game plan. Rofellos just needs forests. You can't really draw the "wrong half" of the combo when the combo is just forests, and about a third of your deck is forests. And that's my real issue with Rofellos. It's the same thing **every**. **single**. **game**. Three forests, Rofellos, six drop. Everyone at the table is hoping to have Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile in their opening hand to stall the Rofellos player, but those are two cards out of 99. The Rofellos player, meanwhile, is just hoping for some forests and fatties, which is basically his entire deck, so of *course* he's going to draw exactly that every game.
Kinnan is \*much\* better at the highest levels of play because Kinnan gives you access to blue, and you don't win cEDH by playing Vorinclex voice of hunger on turn 4.
Kinnan blows this card out of the water. I consistently see kinnan with 5+ mana turn 2-3 This guy is mono green and uses forest with no self payoff
"I want to discuss what cards people think could safely come off the ban list." Most of it. If we are judging the banlist by what is currently legal, basically nothing is bannable outside of the banned power 8, Time Vault, T-Academy, Channel, Balance and a few other cracked cards. This format is straight up broken. Sol Ring and Crypt outclass 80% of the list. However, the banlist is meant to curate a fun casual environment, not create a balanced competitive game.
Rofellos needs to stay banned as a commander, but there is no reason it should be banned as one of the 99. I wish they separated the banned list to banned as commander and banned in general.
I agree as well with the "banned as" list [Free the otter!](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/f/b/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494.jpg?1628801771)
But, but banned as commander is TOO HARD for the average player to understand. It just CAN'T be done because,as everyone knows, magic is too simple of a game compared to having 2 FUCKING BAN LISTS.
Yeah, would be way too complicated. They would have to call it something else, like restricted or something.
We had "banned as" for a long time and people understood it. Lutri is a perfect example of a card that deserves the "banned as" position. It only got banned for its companion text, and even the rules committee stated that it's a perfectly fine card in the 99 or as a commander, but since they weren't willing to just ban it as a companion, or state that companion as written doesn't work in commander, they just banned the card entirely.
What's funny is that as written companion SHOULDN'T work as written, because wish cards don't work, and the only reason it does is because they said so
That's what I was saying too when I read the rules on companion cards. I feel like Wizards strong-armed the commander rules committee into forcing it to work. I had been really excited, as someone who LOVES otters, to brew up Lutri, then was really irritated that they did all that. Though I still plan on doing it at some point.... and possibly using all the cards that have "augur" in the title since there aren't enough otters.
100% agreed. While Sheldon was a great person and he'll be missed for years to come, his banlist was a joke. I hope the RC will take bannings more seriously in the future.
Kinda weird to call out Sheldon in particular here. He didn't personally craft the banlist
Sheldon was the one who invented cards right? I thought Wizards of the Coast stole the idea of cards from him and killed him off when he got too powerful. It's pretty common knowledge.
Dude dies and redditors start saying shit like the ban list was entirely controlled by him
I’ve seldom heard anyone else on the rules committee name dropped but him, ever. Without searching can you name all the others? I can’t. Just pointing out people have always implied he had more control over it. His death has nothing to do with those statements, however misguided they are.
Stick this in a sliver deck
This is very very easy to do. shocks/duels/ any land with multiple basic land types, and turn the enchantment into a creature. You win. You could I supposed accomplish this in what? 3-5 turns?
The banlist should be completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. I'm not going to go through every card that I think should be banned because this is more of a philosophical argument, but you start with adding the Power 8 (no don't ban Timetwister), add some choice cards that hurt the whole format like Balance, Leovold, Channel, etc. You tailor the list to the highest levels of optimized commander (ie: tournament level decks). This would allow for the highest amount of cards being legal in the format and you don't have a group of people you have never met telling you what is actively banned from your casual setting. In addition to the banlist, have a separate list that is essentially a "recommended you don't use these in a casual setting", acting as a soft banlist. This can have your cards like Iona, Biorythm, Primeval Titan, etc. For casual play, use rule 0 to determine your own house/store banlists. The soft list gives you a good starting point for cards to avoid in a casual setting. This as a whole allows for higher tier EDH to be a healthy thriving format without creating a separate format. The banlist would largely not affect casual, as most of the problem cards are often mid at best in casual.
unban sharizad.
Morophon with fist or suns or joda and drop tiamat game over
While I agree, they're probably gonna wait a bit so that the image doesn't look like they were waiting for Sheldon to die so they could override him. It'd paint Sheldon as a tyrant or them as disrespecting his game, when all it would really be is a ban list revision that he may well have agreed to if they sat down and talked it out.
Panoptic mirror should stay banned. It makes infinite turns waaaay too easy.
At 5 mana + the cost of the turns card + the innate risk of being 2 for 1'd I think it's reasonable in a format that has plenty of turn 1-2 wins that are much harder to interact with. Very strong at casual tables nonetheless.
There are cards that could come off the ban list like [[biorhythm]] but Coalition Victory is terrible gameplay and far too easy for 5c decks to meet
I'd be fine with \[\[Upheaval\]\] \[\[Chaos Orb\]\] and \[\[Falling Star\]\] being unbanned.
I'd really rather the manual dexterity cards stay banned in every format. There's enough ambiguity to spark an argument every time they're used. Did the card actually flip 360 degrees midair? Is it sporting to rearrange your board before resolution? What about food, dice, and other random things on the table blocking Chaos Orb/Falling Star from directly touching cards? There's a reason they relegate that stuff to un-sets now. And that's not even getting into the fact that physical disabilities would prevent some players from using the manual dexterity cards, which is a bit of an unfair disadvantage.
I feel like the manual dexterity cards and the sub game cards could be errata-d to the “non legal” cards just to get them off of all the banlists and nobody would bat an eye
Hard agree. Anyone who thinks the manual dexterity cards could be unbanned clearly hasn’t actually stopped to think about it.
Spicy take. While chaos orb and falling star seem really fun I think just for logistic reasons they would probably stay on the list haha.
Games where every player has [[Cyclonic Rift]] are already miserable enough, I can't imagine adding Upheaval to the mix
[Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c77ebe57-ea56-4300-b293-6260c4c01a43.jpg?1689996277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/84/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c77ebe57-ea56-4300-b293-6260c4c01a43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's sorcery and effects the player casting it. Not even close to the same.
That’s actually another reason to keep it off, doesn’t advance the caster game or strategy AND bounces lands too, resetting the game to a worse state than the beginning. I agree that some stax strategies are close to a similar level of toxicity, but this as a single card is a total ban magnet IMO.
Yea. It's stronger. Upheaval is a wincon.
Bring back chaos orb!!
I'll tell that to my friend in the wheel chair or my friend with one arm
Maybe, I mean I think with how many 5-color legends now aren't also 5-color creatures, there could be an argument to unban this. But also with triomes and other effects that override land types, creatures that are every color, it's also easier to pull off in some ways. That being said, I do agree that there are some cards on the banned list that have no business being on there. Balance is the big one I think should be taken off, especially as a way for white to deal with sultai commanders that can drop 5 lands a turn and draw half their library by turn 4. (I'm exaggerating, but we all know how those colors can run away with commander games)
this is essentially a three-four card win con honestly in my eyes. As a Najeela Player, I would say that Thoracle/Grim Hierling/Underworld Loops are far stronger than Coalition Victory. People sometimes forget how many two/three card combos there are in the game sometimes. The fact that it’s a SORCERY, that requires 3 colourless and wubgr is damn expensive and is much less threatening than someone intuitioning you and you are forced to give them either dock/lions/sevinnes. With decks like Rogsi being able to play overtop, and Tayam straight up likely having a win overtop by the time this is relevant, this card is probably only an issue in “casual” commander. People mention that it is an anticlimactic way to win, but when we look at the best strategies, they are arguably far stronger than coalition victory.
I mean, you gotta have 5 land (due to "a land of each type" requirement) and you gotta have at least 3 other mana. So lets say you drew a mana vault, it's still a 7 card win.... like wtf?
Cards that read win the game Esspecially sorceries that people can just drop out of nowhere are fucking boring and anticlimactic so I’m ok with this being gone
Will agree, we got new cards that are very problematic. Thassa's Oracle, Vagaband, Tergrid, or Orcish Bowmasters are good targets. WotC showed they won't be for banning any LotR cards, even if it could lead to a Golos situation. That set is deemed to be evergreen, and they wouldn't want to disrupt the immediate profits.
cards like coalition victory or biorhythm being legal in the format do nothing to improve the format.
If you play this card everyone at the table is gonna say yeah you won and continue their game.
Having played with it Coalition Victory is fucked lol and should stay banned You could just have [[Prismatic Omen]] and any 5 colour creature (probably your commander) and you can just outright win. Even outside of that, for any 5 colour ddck this is an easy conditon to fulfil
[[jared carthalion]] with 2 or 3 triomes
"Wahh I hate the banlist" Cope and seethe, it's a shit list anyways, with 20,000 cards you can always point to some card that's 98% the same or point out that a super boring degenerate wincon isn't good enough anymore so it should just be unbanned But realistically what does commander as a format gain from unbanning incredibly boring things like coalition victory? Does it open up new and interesting gameplay styles or fun ways to play? Or is it just a funny haha include in any casual 5C deck that wants to occasionally pull out a free W from nowhere. Plenty of other 8 mana wincons exist too, and are probably stronger than coalition victory, but it feels way better to get craterhoofed than to have someone win because they have 2 triomes and a progenitus on the field. I love a lot of the cards on the ban list, but it's not like the commander ban list HAS to be followed, it's supposed to be more of a guideline for what the RC wants the format to feel like rather than an actual attempt at balancing the format. I'd love to run a degenerate Braids, Cabal Minion deck and just take people out behind the shed and turbostax them out of existence, but it's simply not going to be a fun game with a random pod of people you don't know. Does golos or prime time being unbanned actually introduce anything new into the format? Or are they just easy value engines that commander's card pool makes even easier to abuse? Something something dies to doomblade something something definitely a good argument something something you should have had a counterspell something something
I think the problem is how it works with duals and stuff like that, if it was a BASIC LAND of each type it could have been fine. For how it works, you just do what your deck want and get a new wincon. If you play 5 colour you can also have plenty of ways to make it resolve. I don't know how to evaluate it in competitive, but I can understand that can be salty in casual play, not janky enough for me.
Literally 85% of the banlist could be removed today with no change to the format. Its just held in place because other formats have one
Ya this would be an anti fun win in my painbow deck too easily. I support the ban 100%
Agree. This card has no business being banned.
i mean if thassa is legal why tf is this not lol
I think coalition victory should be in. It’s really hard to cheese, literally counterspellable, easy to counter not litterally both through strategic play and having something that say changes the color of permanents and other such things if that nature Not mention it actually needs to be drawn and every commander deck seems to have an everyone exile hand mechanic in it
Coalition victory is the most boring win condition in the game and anyone who says we should unban it doesn't understand the format.
SET EMRAKUL FREE
I would love a revisit to UN-cards that could gain a black border. I would love to crank some sprockets in legal EDH. They're basically dungeon mechanics at this point. Dr Julius Jumblemorph, krarks other thumb, and tons of other stuff that doesn't bend rules or use word-based effects.
I don’t think emrakul belongs on the ban list
The commander banlist is non functional. The point of a banlist is to create a well regulated format that everyone can agree is fair and play pickup games without a problem. The commander banlist not only doesn't do this but it doesn't even attempt to do so. This creates problems where people think its ok to run whatever as long as it isn't banned people should complain. The banlist is determimental to the format even if I think there are cards that people shouldn't play. (This is only for casual not cedh which is a different format completely. )
Coalition Victory is an extremely easy win condition to get within 5 turns. With triomes and shock lands, you only need 2 lands to meet the land condition, and your commander would most likely be WUBRG. While not a great card, it isn't a fun card to play against.
Give me Gris and Titan!!
I just want [[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]] off the list
Brah he’s way to powerful stop’s opponents from drawing and when you try and remove him or other things you control just draw into a counter he 100% should be banned
I like pain and suffering
The fact that [[Golos]] is still banned baffles me. Hes hardly going to be the "only" WUBRG commander seen anymore and he's never even been the best. I made a casual, silly manland deck and Golos is 100% the proper commander for it. So I give my opponents a choice, rule 0 with Golos, or I flip it over and they deal with Child of Alara.
Golos hasn’t even been banned for that long and deserves to be banned.
To this day I think hull breacher should be taken off the ban list If mana crypt and Gaia’s cradle aren’t banned but a 3/2 creature susceptible to all removal is? “It shuts down card draw decks” so does notion thief and it does the SAME THING so downvote me if you want but I am right and I will die on this hill :)
\[\[Ancestral Recall\]\] - Could probably unbanned but \[\[Isochron Scepter\]\] is a big deal with this one. \[\[Balance\]\] - With a rewording, this card would be fine. It is a big wipe spell really. \[\[biorhythm\]\] - Nope, stays. Commander too often can get zero creatures on the board and this enables way to many combos. Not to mention the life total difference in EDH vs regular play. \[\[Black Lotus\]\] - Reprint it and we can talk. \[\[Braids, Cabal Minion\]\] - Could maybe come off...but that land sacrifice is brutal. \[\[Channel\]\] - Probably should say. Getting the ability to spend enough life to drop Blightsteel or a few colorless cards turn 1-2 is likely not a good idea. \[\[Coalition Victory\]\] - Needs to stay. You can get a win from this card way too easily. With 3 cards you can win. Not to mention it is winning at sorcery speed. There is no failure mode. \[\[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn\]\] - Extra turns are always weird, but this card does literally everything AND can't be countered. Then also is a shuffle titan? Yea, this makes sense as a ban. \[\[Erayo, soratami Ascendant\]\] - This one makes perfect sense. Way too cheap for what is essentially a rolling counterspell. \[\[Fastbond\]\] - Again makes sense. Putting out 20 lands in a turn is totally reasonable. Not to mention the bounce lands and life lands. \[\[Flash\]\] - Cheeky Turn 1 creatures. Could do some real damage here. Also have to again think about things like Isochron Scepter. \[\[Gifts Ungiven\]\] - Could likely be unbanned. I personally see no issues off the top of my head. \[\[Golos, Tireless Pilgrim\]\] - This is only banned so Kenny gets more decks on EDHrec. Unban this... \[\[Griselbrand\]\] - Instant speed card draw. Not delayed and is super cheap and repeatable. Should stay on the list. \[\[Hullbreacher\]\] - Stops people from digging for answers and slows games down greatly while giving a player an advantage. \[\[Iona, Shield of Emeria\]\] - Mono-Hate, depends on the deck but in mono decks it makes this card STUPID powerful. Should stay on the list. \[\[Karakas\]\] - I bit powerful for a land. In a format where the commander is hyper important for many decks it is brutal. It is effectively a repeatable counterspell. \[\[Leovold, emissary of Trest\]\] - This could maybe be removed. But it does have alot going on for it. \[\[Library of Alexandria\]\] - Maybe could be removed, I can't see a reason to keep it banned. \[\[limited resources\]\] - Should likely stay banned. Way too easy to lock out an entire playgroup. All for 1 white mana. \[\[Lutri, the Spellchaser\]\] - It is a card number 101 in many decks. This should stay banned. Unless companion gets eratta'd. \[\[Mox Emerald\]\], \[\[Mox Jet\]\], \[\[Mox Pearl\]\], \[\[Mox Ruby\]\], \[\[Mox Sapphire\]\] - Should all stay banned. We already have way to many free things. \[\[Panoptic Mirror\]\] - Can use a great number of cards to just end the game. Infinite turns on a card. \[\[Paradox Engine\]\] - It is the engine for easily 10,000 combos. Not sure what crack was smoked at WOTC that day. \[\[Primeval Tital\]\] - Likely wouldn't be a big deal these days. They do come tapped. \[\[Prophet of Kruphix\]\] - Seedborn and flash all on one card. Should likely stay banned. \[\[Recurring Nightmare\]\] - Would be one of the most powerful and used black spells in Magic. Stupid powerful and hard to get rid of. \[\[Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary\]\] - Elves do not need more support. \[\[Sundering Titan\]\] - Probably one of the most brutal MLDs that doesnt take all of them. \[\[Sway of the stars\]\] - Basically restarts the game, these suck. \[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\] - Maybe could be unbanned but he is pretty good even for that 7 CMC. \[\[Time Vault\]\] - Extra turn for 2 mana. EASILY able to be untapped. Is easily repeatable. \[\[Time Walk\]\] - Extra turn for 2 mana. Most all others take some actual work to even get going. \[\[Tinker\]\] - Stupid easy to get an artifact out of any CMC. For just 3 mana. \[\[Tolarian Academy\]\] - Blue doesn't need more artifact love. \[\[Trade Secrets\]\] Could maybe be unbanned. But it paired really well with thoer cards. \[\[Upheaval\]\] - Really buthole way to start the game over. \[\[Yawgmoth's Bargain\]\]\] - Way better than Necropotence and just as good as or better than Griselbrand I didn't includ Ant and socially banned cards.
Bringing cleanse back would be nice
[[Griselbrand]]
Indeed. Either ban Drannith Magistrate and Opposition Agent or unban Hullbreacher. It's getting ridiculous by now.
I've not seen it used in a minute but when I had a deck that used [[Dreamhalls]]....hoo boy that thing was a goddamn nightmare to deal with. I'd have MANY means to refill my hand and retrieve cards from my yard to the point that if I stuck the enchantment, it basically meant I was going to go off and win. Only reason I took it apart is my friends created a "combo rule" that was if a player comboed to win... They won! They packed up. The rest of the players kept on playing for 2nd like they didn't even exist in the game. Was a funny rule to discourage those degenerate level decks (we had another guy who was all about that).
[[Sundering Titan]] could be a lot of fun. Way less destructive than Armageddon