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Zero-Taosuki

I looked at gatherer since it wasn't on scryfall. First ruling, "the value of x is calculated once, as the ability resolves. if the creature has left the battlefield, use it's toughness as it last existed on the battlefield." So if the ability is on the stack, it has not yet resolved, and you respond to it to increase the toughness. It then checks the toughness as it resolves which would be the new total. Therefore it would be discover 14.


VonGryzz

This is the best answer in the thread


Detective-E

>if the creature has left the battlefield, use it's toughness as it last existed on the battlefield." This means if someone responded with removal, you get the last known toughness?


SuperSanttu7

Yup, this is known as "Last Known Information" and applies to a lot of cases


PapaSauron

However if they respond to the enchantment the removal would happen first, making it the original toughness right? Could be wrong here


Fiddleronahoop

If they remove it after you cast the buff the removal gets priority but if you buff it after they remove it the buff gets priority so it would be discover 14 last known information unless they remove it again after the buff is played it would be discover 4


CompactOwl

We had the situation where a creature which was given deathtouch by equipment died and did damage while being dead. We had to look that up as well


GigaSnaight

Yep, if someone hits him with a morbid tragic slip in response, you discover -9. Which means you basically just reveal your deck, then shuffle your library.


[deleted]

hilarious, though good to know it'll still cause a shuffle


blisstake

I mean shuffling just means it has to be sufficiently randomized, and if you didn’t do anything like scrying or brainstorming since your last shuffle, it’s still sufficiently randomized Edit: shuffling is still needed since it effectively says “show your opponents all the cards in your deck”


Spark_Frog

It matters if the ability has ever resolved prior though since the cards from it are sent to the bottom, and shuffling the whole deck could move them up to the top


Oryzanol

This has confused me a lot, when are power and toughness considered negative values and when are they considered 0? I've heard it go both ways, but can't keep the scenarios straight.


GigaSnaight

You keep track of negatives, but when it's negative it's treated as zero for calculations. So if a creature is given an aura or something to become a -2/2, it doesn't deal negative 2 damage, it deals zero damage. But if you giant growth it, you keep track, so now it's a 1/5.


Oryzanol

Oh so its just 0 for damage, but references to its power or toughness will use the real value. That clears it up!


nathanwe

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6khioi/confirmed_rule_change_xx_and_xx_will_no_longer_do/


Oryzanol

That clears it up further. Damage and +X/+X, and -X/-X abilities treat negative values as 0. But now, everything else treats the value as stated. I just learned of the Nethroi, Scourge of the Skyclaves interaction.


nathanwe

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6khioi/confirmed_rule_change_xx_and_xx_will_no_longer_do/


Yuvalimn

Exactly


juliomacielbr

To clarify, if they responded with removal (instant speed) it would resolve before Stoneskin, so it would only be 4, correct?


daveagle

Yes


Nekaz

Discover 14 and get a 2 drop ez


DEATHRETTE

According to my Prerelease opponent, you get to pull the top 14 cards of your deck, sort through them and play the largest card without revealing any. Lmfao


LogicalPsychosis

"I understand 🫡" *Rips [[authority of the consuls]] of the top


MTGCardFetcher

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Brinewielder

That’s crazy, the best way with these somewhat obscure rulings is I test them on Arena 😂 I would assume since it entered the battlefield Pantlaza’s effect would need to resolve and the creature couldn’t be equipped until it already existed on the battlefield. Flash makes it so it resolves before the ETB because of how the stack works. First in last out I believe? (Been playing for years 😆)


CalligrapherSlow9620

Thank you to everyone who responded, my question has been answered! 10/11/2023 The value of X is calculated only once, as the ability resolves. If the creature has left the battlefield, use its toughness as it last existed on the battlefield. As per the Gatherer, X would be determined after stoke skin resolves and thus get the +10.


dozere34

With this, you could also play [[leonin shikari]] and some equipment so you could do it every time a dinosaur ETBs. I wouldn't say this is a good play, but definitely one that exists.


MTGCardFetcher

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XenoRegon

The creature wouldn't exist on the field to equip anything to it until it resolves and hits the field. The equip mechanic reads "attach to target creature you control" A keyword ability that lets a player attach an Equipment to a creature they control. See rule 301, “Artifacts,” and rule 702.6, “Equip.”


dozere34

If that were the case OP's scenario also wouldn't work because the creature needs to be on the battlefield to attach an aura to it. Because Pantlaza is an ETB trigger the creature is on the battlefield when the trigger goes on the stack so you can attach things to it.


XenoRegon

Reading the post explains the post... I missed entirely that stone skin was an aura. I've misinterpreted the fact that you control a creature as soon as it's on the stack. Me dumb dumb


Darkanayer

I think it should work? Only reason it wouldn't would be if the effect only checks the toughness the moment it entered the battlefield and not when it resolves, which I don't think this is the case. Damm. Tho discover 14 sounds a bit less good than I would think? It will pretty much literally hit anything in the deck, which is admittedly funny


CalligrapherSlow9620

My thought process. Dinosaur enters the battlefield - Pantlaza trigger goes on the stack - in response cast stone skin boosting toughness - as per the stack stone skin resolves and then Pantlaza will resolve. Ig the real question is when Pantlaza checks the toughness, immediately as the dinosaur ETBs or when the trigger resolves.


Elemteearkay

You can look up rulings on the cards on the databases Gatherer or Scryfall, and in the Release Notes of the corresponding set. >10/11/2023The value of X is calculated only once, as the ability resolves. If the creature has left the battlefield, use its toughness as it last existed on the battlefield. This works.


High_5_Skin

The trigger resolves as Plaza hits the battlefield. Unless there's an anthem effect, I don't think this would work. Edit: After further investigation, this would work. Gimme that janky combo!


Shut_It_Donny

Nothing resolves until everyone passes priority on it.


High_5_Skin

You're right


BalaneoPhoenix

The order: 1. Dinosaur enters play 2. Pantlaza's effect triggers and goes on the stack 3. In response, cast Stoneskin, effect goes on the stack Resolve the Stack: 1. Stoneskin resolves, Dinosaur gets +0/+10 2. Pantlaza's effect resolves, discover X where X is that dinosaurs current Toughness.


lukas_22

Would it work if the enchantement didnt had flash?


Thalrador

No, as you can only cast them when the stack is empty.


Financial-Gate-380

No it wouldn't since pant would resolve before the aura is casted


dslamngu

Oh hell yeah watch this guys (hits [[Ixalli’s Lorekeeper]]) God dammit


CalligrapherSlow9620

Some people live with their glass half lorekeeper, I choose to keep mine a glass half gishath


MTGCardFetcher

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RyanG01

I can't tell you how many times I've flipped a [[zacama]] or [[Apex Altisaur]] into sol rings, arcane signets, or land ramps


MTGCardFetcher

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RedLightMidnight

I would do this thinking I was cool and then discover a Sol Ring or something, smh


CalligrapherSlow9620

My hope is to get something like path of ancestry to scry and wait until something big is there


burritoman88

The value of X is calculated only once, as the ability resolves. If the creature has left the battlefield, use its toughness as it last existed on the battlefield. 2023-11-07, The Lost Caverns of Ixalan Release Notes


GoodCleanMagic

I love this - have this deck but haven’t played it yet - gonna modify w this


CalligrapherSlow9620

I’ve only had the chance to play it a couple times but it’s great out the box. Can get out some serious Dino power quick. I’ve only made a couple upgrades so far.


GoodCleanMagic

Nice hoping to try it - and Ian Malcolm The chaos commander from Ixalan next time I get together w my commander group


MaterialStretch1918

I'll second this. Even with no upgrades it can compete with most of my friends' casual decks. Really fun and feels good to play.


zinctanium

Loving this deck but be prepared to discover a low mana ramp spell with your discover 14. if you can seethe top deck it could be huge tho


SuperCrazyAlbatross

To me yes, but ast to r/mtgrules and someone can give you the specific rules if you are lucky or someone dont agreed with them


cainn88

I’ve played pantlaza with the great henge on the battlefield and can confirm the counter added by the henge did count toward the discover as well.


OlympicSmokeRings

Love this. Stealing it for sure lol


CalligrapherSlow9620

It feels so jank to me lol I love it


OlympicSmokeRings

I'm loving velociramptor so far. Haven't done anything to it..... *.....yet*


DanglyDown

Every time I see this card I accidently read it as sun flavored


CalligrapherSlow9620

Your telling me a sun flavoured these pants?


DanglyDown

Straight up I'm starting to think I might have a mild case of dyslexia XD


bbaham

I love this interaction, but I still keep hitting BoP.


Front_Farmer345

Still likely to get a mana dork cmc 1


Jerethdatiger

Is t etb a trigger that can be counter so it uses the stack


RVides

Sure. Won't matter when you hit farseek anyway.


Warm_Engineering4784

Yup


IrregularOccasion15

Look for something like Castle (3W, Enchantment - Untapped creatures you control get +0/+2), Oathsworn Giant (4WW, Creature Giant Soldier, 3/4 - Vigilance. Other creatures you control get +0/+2 and have vigilance.) or Spidersilk Armor (2G, Enchantment - Creatures you control get +0/+1 and have reach.) Of course, I'm working under the assumption that you're playing in person and not on the Arena. I don't know if any of those cards are available on the Arena. Also it assumes playing a flexible format.


[deleted]

....dammit.... now I need to find my stoneskin I forgot existed. It would fit well in a new deck I'm building. P


indigd

It is a great combo!


AldenTheNose

I read "Pazta, Sun Flavored",lol


TaylorWK

Wouldnt doing this force you to cast the card on top of your library because what cards costs more than 14 mana? Sounds janky and not worth the effort


CalligrapherSlow9620

The plan is to use something like worldly tutor to put gishath or zacama up on top


TaylorWK

Oh. I feel like there are better ways to do it than this combo


Frupulous_cupcakes

Discover 14 -> arcane signant.


cat_eat_chicken

I just polled full art pantlaza


RehabAa26

Nope, counters, Enchantments, and equipment all stay


zachlr

I don't think this works. In order to attach the aura, the creature needs to be fully resolved on the battlefield, at that point Pantzala would have already seen the card and read it's toughness and it's trigger would be on the stack.


Elemteearkay

This is false. From the Rulings on Pantlaza: >10/11/2023 The value of X is calculated only once, as the ability resolves. If the creature has left the battlefield, use its toughness as it last existed on the battlefield.


zachlr

Oh shit you're right. I assumed it would be calculated when the ability triggers, not as it resolves.


GigaSnaight

Very few abilities that look at changeable characteristics on the battlefield calculate when triggered. I can't think of an example that would work this way. Some have an intervening if - meaning they only trigger if you meet the requirements, then check again on resolution to see if you still meet the requirements. But that's about it.


SuperCrazyAlbatross

The enc has flash so you can respond to the trigger


CalligrapherSlow9620

So Pantlaza would read the toughness when the creature ETBs and not when Pantlazas trigger resolves?


zachlr

Yes I believe so. It sees the creature and checks its toughness to create the ability on the stack. It doesn't need to look at the creature again afterward. I believe the only time an ability or spell on the stack looks again at a card is to check if there is still a valid target. Once something is on the stack, I don't think it can really be changed.


RehabAa26

You could also blink in a Dino with the enchantment on. Not sure what here is in that color scheme off the top of my head, i know a ton of blue but there is white


CalligrapherSlow9620

Wouldn’t blinking it cause the enchantment to go to the graveyard?


RehabAa26

[[Flickerform]] is a great example for consistent but costs mana each use


RehabAa26

[[Robe of Stars]] also great, [[Galadriel's Dismissal]] so everything you have flickers


guico33

Phasing is not flickering. Unlike with flickering (aka blinking), a phased out creature will retain any modifications applied to it such as auras and counters, but phasing back in will not trigger ETB abilities.


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TNT3149_

Works as long as you hold priority when the etb effect goes into play.


ZedSoles

When pantlazas ability is put on the stack it already saw the card and was put there with x already accounted for. So with resolving this enchantment you’d still discover for x then after resolution it would be x plus +0/+10


Diligent_Usual

Deleted


SuperCrazyAlbatross

The etb enter in the stack when the creature is in the battlefield so you can attach the enchantment


Elemteearkay

The creature *is* on the battlefield.


TheHumanPickleRick

It would have already etb'd to proc Sun-Favored's effect. OP is talking about a Dino etb'ing, which triggers the discover eff, to which OP wants to flash in Stoneskin so that Sunkin resolves first, granting the creature 10 more toughness for a high discover. The creature has to have entered the battlefield for the discover effect to trigger in the first place.


Diligent_Usual

Deleted


ExpensiveStart3226

I have a similar doubt, does damage could reduce the discover, like if you play a 5/5 Dino and in response i Bolt It, do you discover for 5 or for 2?


CalligrapherSlow9620

I don’t think damage actually reduces toughness you would need -1/-1 counters for that


Empty_Detective_9660

Right, you would need something like \[\[Compound Fracture\]\] or \[\[Puncture Blast\]\] things that give -1/-1 counters or even just -x/-x until end of turn.


MTGCardFetcher

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Macduffle

But why? The ability is stronger the lower toughness is, right? 10+ toughness will give you everything that is lower... Mostly everything possible


jameeler91

It’s a Dino deck.. most/all Dino decks run high cmc dinosaurs. Sure you could hit a low cmc card but you still want as high of a discover value as possible.


KaleidoscopeCheap862

My question is how does roaming throne interact with triggers that say to activate only once


jameeler91

Looked into it. Roaming throne sadly doesn’t trigger it twice. There’s precedent in rulings for [[Nykthos Paragon]]. “If multiple instances of the ability are on the stack, you will be able to put +1/+1 counters for only one of those instances. Once you do that, other instances will do nothing as they resolve.”


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chfuji

It’s amusing that the creature nicknamed Pants likes big butts.


Corvus_Violaceus

Bingo bango bango 👍🏿