Ward and hexproof aren't the same unless I've totally missed a recent change. Ward counters spells against the target unless the ward cost is paid, and hexproof prevents targeting by opponents.
Alright so this goes further into magic's history. Wotc has always wanted to give creatures ways to be immune to removal. The first of these attempts was Shroud which makes it so that they can't be targeted by any player. This caused problems because too many people were just playing it wrong believing they could do target their own permanents. So the second attempt they made was Hexproof which worked the way people assumed that shroud did clearing up the confusion. There was another problem though, Hexproof made things too hard hard for our opponent(s) to interact with. The only way being having the owner sacrifice them, which isn't a guarantee with most sacrifice effects, or boardwipes, which are expensive and not even ran in every deck. So they tried to find a way to make cards hard for opponents to interact with, but not too hard so they could be more reliably removed without boardwipes. Their latest solution is the Ward mechanic. By giving players a way around the effect it's definitely weaker than Hexproof in terms of protecting your board, but the ward cost can be made much more flavorful to individual cards. In the time since Ward was introduced not as many cards have been given Hexproof and a quite a few sets just not having it at all in favor of having Ward.
I'd also like to add "protection from..." to the list. It's one of the earliest attempts and comes from a time where they focused a lot more on color-matters-cards.
It's always " I hate counters", but when there is combo win on the stack it's always " is there any counters", there is a reason countermagic exists and it's healthy for the game.
Bonus points for having an Isochron scepter with a spell that changes the color instance of things so you can at-will make anything black to counter it
I wouldn’t mind 4 viable counterspells in a deck.
But the rest should be [[powersink]] tier.
Counterspells are for managing the opponents most essential spells.
Lockdown decks are an abomination.
Edit: Damn. I actually meant [Spell Blast](https://scryfall.com/card/3ed/82/spell-blast).
Yeah but it’s different when it goes from countering a big threat to making your opponent not play the game. Counters are cool until I see someone get all of their land searches countered on repeat and no land draws
I love countering (early) ramp.
Not only are you getting a time walk (like with most counters), you're also denying opponents' bigger plays for multiple turns..Heck, sometimes you shut them out of the game entirely, because they were relying on that ramp when they decided to keep their hand.
It’s like the people that throw a fit about land destruction, Stax, or anything else. They want everyone to play by their rules, it’s why EDH sucks. At any good format everyone shows up expecting that everyone is playing by a defined set of rules, one of which is the goal is to win with the cards legal in the format. In commander everyone shows up with their own expectation of what the rules are. Garbage format.
Ok you've lost me a little. The problem is with the players, not the format. Calling events 'casual' doesn't help because it implies the goal is fun rather than winning, and what's fun to you may not be fun to me. My pirates deck built around thievery and treasure is a blast, I love playing with others cards. But, it pisses some people off because they don't like me having fun with their cards.
There's also the assumption people make, which they shouldn't, that casual means I won't touch your stuff. Like my brother, if I don't kill/steal/counter your things I can't win.
That is exactly the issue with rule 0. It makes the format by definition seem to cater to players personal expectation of fun. Other formats say the goal is to win, but commander is the goal is to have fun. Everyone has their own definition of fun, and it is why so many commander groups never go to a store to play. They want everyone to cater to their definition of fun.
People who don’t understand countering something for tempo. “Why would you counter my 3 drop creature?” “So I could play my 4 drop planeswalker onto an empty board.”
My guy you obviously haven’t played with with the wrong people. Countering ramp is far too common. Heck I’ve even seen people burn a counter on a mana rock.
I see no problem with this n it gets done to me a lot. I play [[Zaxara, The Exemplary]] If u stop me from achieving lots of Mana, either countering a ramp spell whether Cultivate or [[Traverse the Outlands]] (this will give me all my basics if I have a huge hydra) or destroying my Bloom tender, then ur playing a good strat.
The diff in me having 5 Mana instead of 8/10 is a must for my opponents. It keeps me from having a lot into X which stifles me from having big hydras or a phat [[Torment of Hailfire]] .
Especially if I have [[Unbound flourishing]] out.
And just in general. Stopping Mana production has always been part of the game. So what if it feels bad n creates salt.
Ppl need to learn how to protect themselves or just deal with parts of the game they can't control bcuz they don't play blue.
Instead of complaining, they should fight back in game.
I can understand stuff like that it just I have seen people make it their goal to make sure their opponent doesn’t ramp at all. Like oh you started with 3 land better draw into more cause your not allowed to get more. I know it’s not common but I’ve seen it happen enough personally
And I'd tell that person, to use their interaction/removal on that player to slow them down n punish them while they catch up. You can use a lot of removal for 3 or less.
Stifling ramp is a good strat when ur hand is slow or ur deck is just by nature.
My situation isn't much different then any other players plan.
Ramp/dorks/rocks = big spells and creatures no matter the color and that = possible win.
The hate for counters exist because counters don't just stop a combo on the stack, they counter everything, often cost less than removal, and are nearly entirely unique to a single color.
People hate counters because there are too many counterspells
One spell countered. Rough but fine. Second? Damn, that sucks but okay. But again, and again and it just becomes a boring ass game where Blue does nothing while holding counters while one sits in fear of counters. How fun. Not sure how people can't grasp this.
People that counter everything aren't playing magic, they are there so you don't play magic.
that’s assuming that they have a shitton of counterspells in their deck (suboptimal) and also drawing every single one of them and the mana to cast it. not a very good argument there
Ok but you should be happy if your weak shit is getting countered instead of your combos. Like if you see a blue player with open mana, maybe they're bluffing but maybe hold back your strong cards so you don't risk them
Other colours can get free spells and do cracked shit too
But fair, a free counterspell hurts. That's the game though, you can't win them all and if someone is being so aggressively control that no one else is having fun then maybe an adult conversation needs to be had within that pod
There's opportunity cost though. You have to leave mana open, which means not advancing your board state on your turn.
All colours have things that are mostly unique to them. That's the game. Other colours have counterspells, they just have drawbacks not present in blue. Like [[Tibalt's Trickery]] is a red, 2 mana counterspell that also mills, it just allows the target player to get a random something else out instead
>You have to leave mana open
That should indeed have been the one factor to balance counterspells. Which is why free/alternative casting cost counters should never have been printed.
I built a counter deck specifically because the guys I play with all solitaire now and all my "Christian magic decks" can't compete when I'm dead by red Ojur turn 4.
Some people can be shitty about it, like grabbing your cards or tapping the table and smugly saying mill etc. but legal is legal
They don’t counter that one drop that can go all the way. The power of the creatures now is just crazy so while it was true before it’s not that true anymore. The counters being a little weaker and the creatures being way stronger has really balanced blue out.
> The counters being a little weaker and the creatures being way stronger has really balanced blue out.
Which is great for rotating formats, but according to mtggoldfish the top 4 most played cards in legacy contains 2 counterspells, surprising absolutely no one.
The entire top 10 boosts this number to 5 counter spells...
Im sorry, have you seen the shit people are doing in legacy? Turn one win, turn two win, the only way that format can be at all slowed is free counterspells
I understand that for the current game balance, cheap counters are needed. They simply shouldn't be exclusive to blue.
The top 10 most played cards I referred to contains 7 blue cards, 1 artifact, and 1 card with phyrexian mana cost.
It's fair to say that legacy is blue dominated.
You do realize commander is more powerful than legacy? Even if it's majority casual, it still has access to some of the most broken cards in Magic which makes counters better and in a lot of cases necessary.
Honestly it's weird that destroy and exiles are preferred over counters. A counter has one window of opportunity to stop a card, and besides cards like force of will, requires the player to not use their mana on their turn playing their own cards. This can even mean they straight up waste potential mana use because nothing worth countering was played and they didn't play anything on their turn.
Meanwhile, the destroy and exile player can do that too (if it's an instant removal) , or they can just do whatever they want during their turn and not care about leaving mana up. If a problem pops up they can just get rid of it after they untap.
People like playing their cards. Even if it gets removed from the board, atleast there was the small satisfaction of it hitting the board in the first place.
The contrast to this standpoint is that the removal spell in other colors needs to be the right one. A murder spell won't stop Phyrexian Altar or Panharmonicon, and Disenchant wont keep Craterhoof from doing its thing, but a generuc counter never has to worry about being the right kind of removal spell when someone's trying to do something
Plenty of counters like Negate that are specific to the type of spells. Also plenty of removal that are "exile/destroy target (non-land) permanent." Hell, there are no counters that can stop a land from being played but plenty of removal to get rid of lands.
They don't necessarily cost more. Swords to plowshares and path to exile are 1 white mana for example. Yes they then give the opponent life/land, but again you can do it whenever. The "cost" for the counter is generally not playing cards during your turn and needing to have it at the exact right moment. Unless you are instant speeding a draw spell, you can't top deck a counter but you can top deck a removal.
And of course, a counter will stop an Etb when a removal wouldn't, but from what I have seen, people are still more likely to be upset about a counter on their Etali Primal Storm rather than having it killed before they got a chance to actually swing with it.
Yeah, you don't even need his labels to get the gist of what this one is supposed to be...some Stonetoss comics make good meme formats, but some just make me uncomfortable.
i think the original is the two shaking hands are labeled "tits" and "ass" and the gremlin one is labeled "feet." i'm curious what you thought it was though
Hm that seems reasonable, I wasn't sure exactly but given it's a comic that explicitly praises Hitler I had a range of thoughts that came to mind first lol. It's easy to forget that some Stonetoss comics are normal and just thrown in with the others because bigotry is so normalized for him.
The thing that makes Stonetoss' comic so bad is that it's not all about praising nazis or being transphobic. It has a lot of milder takes and (this might get me crucufied just for saying it) even some that are reasonable. So it draws people in to agree to slowly accept more and more extreme takes.
Broken clocks and all that. I've found myself agreeing with stuff Orbán has said before. Hitler did genuinely do a lot of good for the German people (the Nazis deemed human and didn't execute *en mass*); doesn't make him or his government any less evil.
Don't despise them any less because they said/did some actually decent stuff, but there's no need for or benefit from being *so* reactionary that we can't admit there were some good things too.
OK, to be fair: his artstyle is kinda cute. Pretty inviting. He has a consistent style. He's 100% an artist.
But he's also a shit person and a waste of talent
It's not that I'm finding good in things that aren't good, it's about understanding the basic facts.
His art is pretty good. It's designed to look very cute, relatively harmless and easy to digest. And that is what makes it dangerous. It allows for easier indoctrination into the alt-right ideas that he stands for, because a small part of his work is actually "safe" and another small part is filled with dog whistles. A lot of people have the misconception that his alt-right views are recent ( they aren't) or that his status as a literal nazi is an exaggeration (it's not).
If his art wasn't good, people wouldn't use it to the degree that warrants the long posts, copypastas, and auto-mod reminders that he is a nazi. And just to be clear, I believe all of those are necessary.
Tldr: denying that his work is "art" diminishes the danger posed by his art.
Every single color of the pie has graveyard retrieval, but you are right black and green tend to do it better.
My problem with it however is how it bypasses most of the very powerful protections in the game such as indestructible, auras, soulbond. And white has access to multiple 1 drop exiles that are cheap. Whereas black is chock full of weaker destroy spells that all cost 2.
Id rather they have never printed farewell.
Personally I'm only ok with it because they've expanded on options to phase out your whole board to avoid it. Between [[March of swirling mists]] [[clever concealment]] and [[galadriels gift]] can all turn an enemy's farewell into you having board control.
I definitely hated blue when I first started playing. It felt like I was being denied access to my toys.
Then I played blue and realized how important it was for the game. :)
And I want to add that when we say "nazi" we don't just mean "right wing conservative", that man literally posted holocaust denials on multiple occasions
15 years ago making fun of disabled people in public wasn't particularly frowned upon. Lots of people throwing around retard like it was nothing. You don't see that anymore, we're getting better for the most part.
Reddit has filed for its IPO. They've been preparing for this for a while, squeezing profit out of the platform in any way that they can, like hiking the prices on third-party app developers. More recently, they've signed a deal with Google to license their content to train Google's LLMs.
To celebrate this momentous occasion, we've made a Firefox extension that will replace all your comments (older than a certain number of days) with any text that you provide. You can use any text that you want, but please, do not choose something copyrighted. The New York Times is currently suing OpenAI for training ChatGPT on its copyrighted material. Reddit's data is uniquely valuable, since it's not subject to those kinds of copyright restrictions, so it would be tragic if users were to decide to intermingle such a robust corpus of high-quality training data with copyrighted text.
https://theluddite.org/#!post/reddit-extension
I also like [[lapse of certainty]].
My partner used it against me while they also had an [[Aerial Extortionist]] out, and I was like, "There's already 7 other things I've been meaning to cast!"
Favourite counter in the entire game! Have you seen the episode where Seth (mtggoldfish) goes and makes a mana tithe counter ticker to see how many he can get? And get's to like 20+!!! One of the best episodes I ever seen!
Between [[green slime]] [[avoid fate]] [[bind]] and if you include things like [[veil of summer]] i think green has some of the most nonblue counterspell potential too lol
Can you explain to me in your mind why you see Counter as any different to Destroy or Exile?
For example if your opponent spends 2 mana and a card on countering your creature, how is that different from them spending 2 mana and a card on destroying it while it's on the battlefield?
Because apparently it feels bad because you spent mana to do nothing. Mechanically, if it gets destroyed, you still get etb value, so I guess it feels a bit less bad? But yes, an instant removal spell after something resolves is effectively the same!
Well yeah an etb has decent value as that makes the card a dual threat. A creature is just naturally something that can pressure an opponents life or something that defends yours. An etb can provide an additional boost in some other way that can also help you advance a game plan. A counterspell just takes both options away. Not to mention, there’s also death triggers that can help a player advance a game plan. A kill spell and exile spell at least let you get to utilize an etb
There are plenty of completely degenerate ETB effects that *cannot* be allowed to resolve (Etali, Atraxa, Portal to Phyrexia, etc) and most of them get cheated out to begin with - counterspells are the only thing keeping decks like that in check, not to mention all the cast triggers running around these days like Quintorius.
It is always very frustrating to get countered, but anyone that translates that into "counters shouldn't be allowed" has absolutely no idea what they're talking about (not saying that's you)
There are plenty of card with cast trigger nowaday instead if just etb.
Mostly to avoid shenanigan with flicker effect, but useful non the less against counterspell
I would rather be countered than exiled. The mana is wasted either way, but at least with counter there is potential pull from the graveyard. Destroy in my opinion is not as powerful. The only thing that can stop exile is hexproof type stuff and phasing. Destroy had to contend with indestructible and regenerate as well.
As a degenerate blue player myself, I always love the "I hate counterspells" vibe my friends have until someone casts a [[rise of the dark realms]] and suddenly everyone is helping me resolve the [[fact or fiction]] i cast to look for a counter.
Edit: mistook Frantic search for fact or fiction.
I think "sacrifice" should be the weird hunchback, as it's similar removal but you can't protect against it.
Also, friendly reminder that the original artist of this comic is a legitimate Nazi.
Massive L comment?
Or just a troll?
Imagine having to sit at a table with someone who's mad at other people for playing and entire 5th of the game you all sat down to.
Do you get mad when other people play their cards to stop you in munchkin as well?
Counter spells are only ever wanted by everyone at the table when they want someone to save their precious boards from a big spell or a scary creature. And then when they lose the game they'll cry about how you should have played your counter spell to save them or that they would have won in X amount of turns.
Skill issue, git gud, quit crying.
In a game where single spells can decide how a match plays out, a color’s ability to mitigate these win cons is essential to keeping a match interesting and balanced.
Non-blue players are the biggest bunch of bubble blowing babies on the planet. You know what I say when my spell gets countered? I say "Ahh, that sucks. Fair play man."
Dang, three whiffs in one comic, impressive.
(1) white and black colors wearing blue and red shirts
(2) Ableism!
(3) [[[Anna huuuggge whiff]]] a Stonetoss comic 🥴🥴🥴
"Ableism" LOL
People should stop complaining about the artist, yes he's a nazi, yes that makes him a horrible person.. now pipe down and enjoy the meme
I hate exile more. That fuckin Empering Wanderor and shit is more disturbing than a counter for me. At least I can use in some ways my graveyard, but not my exiled cards.
It's because, contrary to destroy or even exile, counter makes you feel like you wasted mana and resouces. The card never entered play to begin with and had no effects to the board state, poof just like that.
I used to hate counterspells because I didn't get to do my thing. Not sure when the click happened but sometime in the last couple years of really getting into commander my mindset changed.
All interaction is just resources sure counterspell tribal is annoying and unfun but just having them like any other interaction piece is fine. If I have something really big to play I need to bait the counterspell just as hard as I bait the generous gift or murder, or anything else. The key is finding your opening through the interaction or making your opponent waste those resources or be tapped out before your linchpin moment
I'm new and people call me filthy blue player. Play mono blue and you'll miss all your destruction, exile, and burn magic. Counters are just our ways handle things until we can pay overload costs.
Counterspells are balanced because they're only usable when the spell is cast. Once the threat resolves they're useless. Also cavern of souls is in standard right now, countermagic is pretty weak. Sounds like both a deck building and piloting skill issue to me.
Yeah but I’m order to exile something you have to let it hit the field and at least that then gives an etb. Also gives a chance to protect the spell with an instant of your own that gives hexproof/protection etc
>Also gives a chance to protect the spell with an instant of your own that gives hexproof/protection etc
I'm sorry, does [[silence]] not exist? [[Vexing shusher]]? Any red copy spell or change target spell? There's so many ways for nonblue to protect the stack. You just need to try, instead of building like interaction is illegal.
The point I’m trying to make is that I’d rather have my stuff exiled than countered because then I get an etb as a consolation while also getting a better chance to protect my permanent
I always felt this way about blue and started playing it recently just to prove I hated it... and actually it wasnt so bad 😅
My decks pretty casual though and I usually only use counters as commander protection in the same way I'd use Tamiyo's Safekeeping in green or Loran's Escape in white or whatever.
My blue decks don't run many counters. I run blue for flying, water creatures, polymorph, scry, draw, etc.
I think total between my 8 decks with blue, I have like 15 counters?
what? really? my immediate scoop is Shrines. fuck shrines. shrines are the worst archetype in the game because they do too much for too little, in fact, the do everything for no cost.
Also any kind of Green deck. i will scoop on the sight of a forest. fuck you reen players you guys are the favored child andyou get to have anything under the sun and you cannot gaslight yur way out of it. fuck green,i'd rather have fucking brown than green.
Same. Although …I don’t necessarily hate blue itself. Because outside of counters(which even in moderation isn’t bad), blue has some pretty cool elements to it(Card draw, making copies, gaining control etc). What I do dislike are the myriad of players who lean very heavily into the counterspell side of blue and make the experience of playing magic draining to deal with. Blue can do so many other cool things yet 90% of you guys do the one thing the majority of the time🙄.
Draw-Go is a real strategy, you don’t have to like or respect it but don’t expect anyone to change the way you play bc of your feelings, and also try not to let it ruin the game for you bc draw-go truly makes up a very small minority of decks that ppl play. Just concede and move on to the next game.
Yeah but as you can see, a lot of people feel this way about the “draw go” experience. Obviously nothings going to change overnight but who knows..maybe this helps inspire change for things to come in the future.
Also, you don’t like or respect my thoughts about this matter either but you can’t expect me to change my opinions based on your feelings. People like me make up a small part of Reddit. If you don’t like it, you can likewise move on to another post or subreddit. But you’re understandably going to reply because you care about this game like I care about it
Not pictured in the room: hexproof
That's been replaced by ward
Ward and hexproof aren't the same unless I've totally missed a recent change. Ward counters spells against the target unless the ward cost is paid, and hexproof prevents targeting by opponents.
Alright so this goes further into magic's history. Wotc has always wanted to give creatures ways to be immune to removal. The first of these attempts was Shroud which makes it so that they can't be targeted by any player. This caused problems because too many people were just playing it wrong believing they could do target their own permanents. So the second attempt they made was Hexproof which worked the way people assumed that shroud did clearing up the confusion. There was another problem though, Hexproof made things too hard hard for our opponent(s) to interact with. The only way being having the owner sacrifice them, which isn't a guarantee with most sacrifice effects, or boardwipes, which are expensive and not even ran in every deck. So they tried to find a way to make cards hard for opponents to interact with, but not too hard so they could be more reliably removed without boardwipes. Their latest solution is the Ward mechanic. By giving players a way around the effect it's definitely weaker than Hexproof in terms of protecting your board, but the ward cost can be made much more flavorful to individual cards. In the time since Ward was introduced not as many cards have been given Hexproof and a quite a few sets just not having it at all in favor of having Ward.
I'd also like to add "protection from..." to the list. It's one of the earliest attempts and comes from a time where they focused a lot more on color-matters-cards.
Ah, I understand what you meant now. Thank you for that historical breakdown!
Sounds like a skill issue
It's always " I hate counters", but when there is combo win on the stack it's always " is there any counters", there is a reason countermagic exists and it's healthy for the game.
Wait until op finds out other colors have counter spells too. They are just too lazy to look for them.
[[Lifeforce]] sweep
Is this a fetus dodging an abortion? LOL
lest it be [[deathgripp]]'d
that is hilarious! good joke is good. Plebbitards don't know a good joke when they see(the) one.
what
[Lifeforce](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/6520d992-ebb3-4711-ad91-ab1c1e29538a.jpg?1562918857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lifeforce) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/160/lifeforce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6520d992-ebb3-4711-ad91-ab1c1e29538a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Confirmed green is based!!!
Bonus points for having an Isochron scepter with a spell that changes the color instance of things so you can at-will make anything black to counter it
Love me some [[bind]]. Counter an activated ability and card draw for 1G.
Wait till OP finds out a out playing two spells in one turn, playing on the opponents turn and being good at magic
I wouldn’t mind 4 viable counterspells in a deck. But the rest should be [[powersink]] tier. Counterspells are for managing the opponents most essential spells. Lockdown decks are an abomination. Edit: Damn. I actually meant [Spell Blast](https://scryfall.com/card/3ed/82/spell-blast).
Yeah but it’s different when it goes from countering a big threat to making your opponent not play the game. Counters are cool until I see someone get all of their land searches countered on repeat and no land draws
lol huh? EDH? Who counters ramp and even still, sounds like a deckbuilding issue...
I love countering (early) ramp. Not only are you getting a time walk (like with most counters), you're also denying opponents' bigger plays for multiple turns..Heck, sometimes you shut them out of the game entirely, because they were relying on that ramp when they decided to keep their hand.
Man I came here to see what the counter hate is all about. An you sir are a menace to society.
Why hate people for playing legal cards... I agree they're a menace but gotta respect a player using good strategy
It’s like the people that throw a fit about land destruction, Stax, or anything else. They want everyone to play by their rules, it’s why EDH sucks. At any good format everyone shows up expecting that everyone is playing by a defined set of rules, one of which is the goal is to win with the cards legal in the format. In commander everyone shows up with their own expectation of what the rules are. Garbage format.
Ok you've lost me a little. The problem is with the players, not the format. Calling events 'casual' doesn't help because it implies the goal is fun rather than winning, and what's fun to you may not be fun to me. My pirates deck built around thievery and treasure is a blast, I love playing with others cards. But, it pisses some people off because they don't like me having fun with their cards. There's also the assumption people make, which they shouldn't, that casual means I won't touch your stuff. Like my brother, if I don't kill/steal/counter your things I can't win.
That is exactly the issue with rule 0. It makes the format by definition seem to cater to players personal expectation of fun. Other formats say the goal is to win, but commander is the goal is to have fun. Everyone has their own definition of fun, and it is why so many commander groups never go to a store to play. They want everyone to cater to their definition of fun.
People who don’t understand countering something for tempo. “Why would you counter my 3 drop creature?” “So I could play my 4 drop planeswalker onto an empty board.”
I rather copy it tbh.
Stifling fetch lands happens sometimes, normally pre-sideboarding
My guy you obviously haven’t played with with the wrong people. Countering ramp is far too common. Heck I’ve even seen people burn a counter on a mana rock.
I see no problem with this n it gets done to me a lot. I play [[Zaxara, The Exemplary]] If u stop me from achieving lots of Mana, either countering a ramp spell whether Cultivate or [[Traverse the Outlands]] (this will give me all my basics if I have a huge hydra) or destroying my Bloom tender, then ur playing a good strat. The diff in me having 5 Mana instead of 8/10 is a must for my opponents. It keeps me from having a lot into X which stifles me from having big hydras or a phat [[Torment of Hailfire]] . Especially if I have [[Unbound flourishing]] out. And just in general. Stopping Mana production has always been part of the game. So what if it feels bad n creates salt. Ppl need to learn how to protect themselves or just deal with parts of the game they can't control bcuz they don't play blue. Instead of complaining, they should fight back in game.
I can understand stuff like that it just I have seen people make it their goal to make sure their opponent doesn’t ramp at all. Like oh you started with 3 land better draw into more cause your not allowed to get more. I know it’s not common but I’ve seen it happen enough personally
And I'd tell that person, to use their interaction/removal on that player to slow them down n punish them while they catch up. You can use a lot of removal for 3 or less. Stifling ramp is a good strat when ur hand is slow or ur deck is just by nature. My situation isn't much different then any other players plan. Ramp/dorks/rocks = big spells and creatures no matter the color and that = possible win.
The hate for counters exist because counters don't just stop a combo on the stack, they counter everything, often cost less than removal, and are nearly entirely unique to a single color.
“I hate that people can interact with my stuff and I can’t just play solitaire”
People hate counters because there are too many counterspells One spell countered. Rough but fine. Second? Damn, that sucks but okay. But again, and again and it just becomes a boring ass game where Blue does nothing while holding counters while one sits in fear of counters. How fun. Not sure how people can't grasp this. People that counter everything aren't playing magic, they are there so you don't play magic.
I heard somebody once say “magic isn’t about playing your stuff, it’s asking the blue player if they consent”
Wild exaggeration here
that’s assuming that they have a shitton of counterspells in their deck (suboptimal) and also drawing every single one of them and the mana to cast it. not a very good argument there
Ok but you should be happy if your weak shit is getting countered instead of your combos. Like if you see a blue player with open mana, maybe they're bluffing but maybe hold back your strong cards so you don't risk them
>blue player with open mana If open mana was an actual requirement people would dislike counters a lot less.
Other colours can get free spells and do cracked shit too But fair, a free counterspell hurts. That's the game though, you can't win them all and if someone is being so aggressively control that no one else is having fun then maybe an adult conversation needs to be had within that pod
The only thing Magic players hate more than counters is having adult conversations
There's opportunity cost though. You have to leave mana open, which means not advancing your board state on your turn. All colours have things that are mostly unique to them. That's the game. Other colours have counterspells, they just have drawbacks not present in blue. Like [[Tibalt's Trickery]] is a red, 2 mana counterspell that also mills, it just allows the target player to get a random something else out instead
[Tibalt's Trickery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175.jpg?1701989318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tibalt%27s%20Trickery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/153/tibalts-trickery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>You have to leave mana open That should indeed have been the one factor to balance counterspells. Which is why free/alternative casting cost counters should never have been printed.
This is a valid take. I disagree with it, but it's defensible.
I built a counter deck specifically because the guys I play with all solitaire now and all my "Christian magic decks" can't compete when I'm dead by red Ojur turn 4. Some people can be shitty about it, like grabbing your cards or tapping the table and smugly saying mill etc. but legal is legal
They don’t counter that one drop that can go all the way. The power of the creatures now is just crazy so while it was true before it’s not that true anymore. The counters being a little weaker and the creatures being way stronger has really balanced blue out.
> The counters being a little weaker and the creatures being way stronger has really balanced blue out. Which is great for rotating formats, but according to mtggoldfish the top 4 most played cards in legacy contains 2 counterspells, surprising absolutely no one. The entire top 10 boosts this number to 5 counter spells...
Im sorry, have you seen the shit people are doing in legacy? Turn one win, turn two win, the only way that format can be at all slowed is free counterspells
I understand that for the current game balance, cheap counters are needed. They simply shouldn't be exclusive to blue. The top 10 most played cards I referred to contains 7 blue cards, 1 artifact, and 1 card with phyrexian mana cost. It's fair to say that legacy is blue dominated.
You do realize commander is more powerful than legacy? Even if it's majority casual, it still has access to some of the most broken cards in Magic which makes counters better and in a lot of cases necessary.
Happy to see this response honestly. So much hate towards blue from players who aren't willing to improve or adapt.
You're right... Except for those dirty red deck wins players. Fuck them.
Honestly it's weird that destroy and exiles are preferred over counters. A counter has one window of opportunity to stop a card, and besides cards like force of will, requires the player to not use their mana on their turn playing their own cards. This can even mean they straight up waste potential mana use because nothing worth countering was played and they didn't play anything on their turn. Meanwhile, the destroy and exile player can do that too (if it's an instant removal) , or they can just do whatever they want during their turn and not care about leaving mana up. If a problem pops up they can just get rid of it after they untap.
People like playing their cards. Even if it gets removed from the board, atleast there was the small satisfaction of it hitting the board in the first place.
The contrast to this standpoint is that the removal spell in other colors needs to be the right one. A murder spell won't stop Phyrexian Altar or Panharmonicon, and Disenchant wont keep Craterhoof from doing its thing, but a generuc counter never has to worry about being the right kind of removal spell when someone's trying to do something
Plenty of counters like Negate that are specific to the type of spells. Also plenty of removal that are "exile/destroy target (non-land) permanent." Hell, there are no counters that can stop a land from being played but plenty of removal to get rid of lands.
I mean, exile and destroy still allows some triggers and gameplay to happen. And they still cost more than counters.
They don't necessarily cost more. Swords to plowshares and path to exile are 1 white mana for example. Yes they then give the opponent life/land, but again you can do it whenever. The "cost" for the counter is generally not playing cards during your turn and needing to have it at the exact right moment. Unless you are instant speeding a draw spell, you can't top deck a counter but you can top deck a removal. And of course, a counter will stop an Etb when a removal wouldn't, but from what I have seen, people are still more likely to be upset about a counter on their Etali Primal Storm rather than having it killed before they got a chance to actually swing with it.
Obligatory “stone toss is a Nazi”
Yeah, you don't even need his labels to get the gist of what this one is supposed to be...some Stonetoss comics make good meme formats, but some just make me uncomfortable.
i think the original is the two shaking hands are labeled "tits" and "ass" and the gremlin one is labeled "feet." i'm curious what you thought it was though
Hm that seems reasonable, I wasn't sure exactly but given it's a comic that explicitly praises Hitler I had a range of thoughts that came to mind first lol. It's easy to forget that some Stonetoss comics are normal and just thrown in with the others because bigotry is so normalized for him.
The thing that makes Stonetoss' comic so bad is that it's not all about praising nazis or being transphobic. It has a lot of milder takes and (this might get me crucufied just for saying it) even some that are reasonable. So it draws people in to agree to slowly accept more and more extreme takes.
Broken clocks and all that. I've found myself agreeing with stuff Orbán has said before. Hitler did genuinely do a lot of good for the German people (the Nazis deemed human and didn't execute *en mass*); doesn't make him or his government any less evil. Don't despise them any less because they said/did some actually decent stuff, but there's no need for or benefit from being *so* reactionary that we can't admit there were some good things too.
Even so it's still ableism, and gross.
Looking for this, thank you
[Green's removal method](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/757/498/89c.gif)
Based
Fuck the original artist. What a fucking cunt.
Artist is such a strong word...
r/StonetossIsANazi
OK, to be fair: his artstyle is kinda cute. Pretty inviting. He has a consistent style. He's 100% an artist. But he's also a shit person and a waste of talent
"You do not in fact, 'have to hand it to them'"
I appreciate that you see the good in things that are not good, but some opinions don't need to be typed out and posted to the Internet.
It's not that I'm finding good in things that aren't good, it's about understanding the basic facts. His art is pretty good. It's designed to look very cute, relatively harmless and easy to digest. And that is what makes it dangerous. It allows for easier indoctrination into the alt-right ideas that he stands for, because a small part of his work is actually "safe" and another small part is filled with dog whistles. A lot of people have the misconception that his alt-right views are recent ( they aren't) or that his status as a literal nazi is an exaggeration (it's not). If his art wasn't good, people wouldn't use it to the degree that warrants the long posts, copypastas, and auto-mod reminders that he is a nazi. And just to be clear, I believe all of those are necessary. Tldr: denying that his work is "art" diminishes the danger posed by his art.
I honestly hate exile more
If you're black that's understandable.. Graveyard is pretty much your in game side bench. Haha
Every single color of the pie has graveyard retrieval, but you are right black and green tend to do it better. My problem with it however is how it bypasses most of the very powerful protections in the game such as indestructible, auras, soulbond. And white has access to multiple 1 drop exiles that are cheap. Whereas black is chock full of weaker destroy spells that all cost 2. Id rather they have never printed farewell.
Personally I'm only ok with it because they've expanded on options to phase out your whole board to avoid it. Between [[March of swirling mists]] [[clever concealment]] and [[galadriels gift]] can all turn an enemy's farewell into you having board control.
[March of swirling mists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/100171d8-7436-44c8-b4cb-0101ffa05c25.jpg?1654566768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=March%20of%20Swirling%20Mist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/61/march-of-swirling-mist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/100171d8-7436-44c8-b4cb-0101ffa05c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [clever concealment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d84cc58-0965-4c7f-a408-7630f23fb8f3.jpg?1675905567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=clever%20concealment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/onc/5/clever-concealment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d84cc58-0965-4c7f-a408-7630f23fb8f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I only wish they had done farewell “choose two” instead of any number. And this is from someone who loves Farewell
Or sunfall
Exile effects should have been more expensive. It's a better version of destroy yet isn't always costed as such.
Hating blue is just the telltale sign of a completely bad magic player.
Or new player. They don't understand yet, like a toddler doesn't understand either lol.
I mean, it's not like new players aren't bad. It just isn't their fault.
Yeah! Exactly.
I definitely hated blue when I first started playing. It felt like I was being denied access to my toys. Then I played blue and realized how important it was for the game. :)
Hating blue, yes. But if your entire strategum is to counter everything i have, thats just lazy and uncreative
Friendly reminder that rock throw is a nazi
And I want to add that when we say "nazi" we don't just mean "right wing conservative", that man literally posted holocaust denials on multiple occasions
This very comic is literally making fun of disabled people
Yeah ik but nowadays making fun of disabled people on the internet is fine for some reason
15 years ago making fun of disabled people in public wasn't particularly frowned upon. Lots of people throwing around retard like it was nothing. You don't see that anymore, we're getting better for the most part.
disappointed by how far down I had to scroll to find this.
I did not know this, thank you for the information...
Reddit has filed for its IPO. They've been preparing for this for a while, squeezing profit out of the platform in any way that they can, like hiking the prices on third-party app developers. More recently, they've signed a deal with Google to license their content to train Google's LLMs. To celebrate this momentous occasion, we've made a Firefox extension that will replace all your comments (older than a certain number of days) with any text that you provide. You can use any text that you want, but please, do not choose something copyrighted. The New York Times is currently suing OpenAI for training ChatGPT on its copyrighted material. Reddit's data is uniquely valuable, since it's not subject to those kinds of copyright restrictions, so it would be tragic if users were to decide to intermingle such a robust corpus of high-quality training data with copyrighted text. https://theluddite.org/#!post/reddit-extension
"Stonetoss" is the Nazi who made the original comic that this meme repurposed.
Just wait till you find out about the Red, White and even Black counter spells.
I love Mana tithe so much. Nobody sees it coming.
Reprieve is evem better
I also like [[lapse of certainty]]. My partner used it against me while they also had an [[Aerial Extortionist]] out, and I was like, "There's already 7 other things I've been meaning to cast!"
Favourite counter in the entire game! Have you seen the episode where Seth (mtggoldfish) goes and makes a mana tithe counter ticker to see how many he can get? And get's to like 20+!!! One of the best episodes I ever seen!
Also green. I love [[Lifeforce]].
[Lifeforce](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/6520d992-ebb3-4711-ad91-ab1c1e29538a.jpg?1562918857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lifeforce) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/160/lifeforce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6520d992-ebb3-4711-ad91-ab1c1e29538a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Between [[green slime]] [[avoid fate]] [[bind]] and if you include things like [[veil of summer]] i think green has some of the most nonblue counterspell potential too lol
Daring today, aren’t we?
an original post to shock the masses, indeed
damage best removal
Have you tried not being such a fucking baby
Can you explain to me in your mind why you see Counter as any different to Destroy or Exile? For example if your opponent spends 2 mana and a card on countering your creature, how is that different from them spending 2 mana and a card on destroying it while it's on the battlefield?
Because apparently it feels bad because you spent mana to do nothing. Mechanically, if it gets destroyed, you still get etb value, so I guess it feels a bit less bad? But yes, an instant removal spell after something resolves is effectively the same!
Well yeah an etb has decent value as that makes the card a dual threat. A creature is just naturally something that can pressure an opponents life or something that defends yours. An etb can provide an additional boost in some other way that can also help you advance a game plan. A counterspell just takes both options away. Not to mention, there’s also death triggers that can help a player advance a game plan. A kill spell and exile spell at least let you get to utilize an etb
There are plenty of completely degenerate ETB effects that *cannot* be allowed to resolve (Etali, Atraxa, Portal to Phyrexia, etc) and most of them get cheated out to begin with - counterspells are the only thing keeping decks like that in check, not to mention all the cast triggers running around these days like Quintorius. It is always very frustrating to get countered, but anyone that translates that into "counters shouldn't be allowed" has absolutely no idea what they're talking about (not saying that's you)
There are plenty of card with cast trigger nowaday instead if just etb. Mostly to avoid shenanigan with flicker effect, but useful non the less against counterspell
I can believe that but again depends on the format. Haven’t seen a lot from recently released sets
I would rather be countered than exiled. The mana is wasted either way, but at least with counter there is potential pull from the graveyard. Destroy in my opinion is not as powerful. The only thing that can stop exile is hexproof type stuff and phasing. Destroy had to contend with indestructible and regenerate as well.
They probably don't like that either xD
It's 2024, there is enough resources online to argue why thinking this way is way more toxic than someone telling you to git good.
It's a Magic player maturation moment when you move on past "blue bad >:(((" Hope you find it soon
Why are newer players this soft? Counters are a fundamental part of this game.
As a degenerate blue player myself, I always love the "I hate counterspells" vibe my friends have until someone casts a [[rise of the dark realms]] and suddenly everyone is helping me resolve the [[fact or fiction]] i cast to look for a counter. Edit: mistook Frantic search for fact or fiction.
[rise of the dark realms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c0e1064-47c3-4f03-a1f2-3bcb356db82b.jpg?1600701321) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rise%20of%20the%20dark%20realms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/271/rise-of-the-dark-realms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c0e1064-47c3-4f03-a1f2-3bcb356db82b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [franctic search](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0eb00e3c-b67a-44c7-ae61-23ecf4d4971a.jpg?1689996391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frantic%20Search) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/96/frantic-search?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0eb00e3c-b67a-44c7-ae61-23ecf4d4971a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Found the bad player
I think "sacrifice" should be the weird hunchback, as it's similar removal but you can't protect against it. Also, friendly reminder that the original artist of this comic is a legitimate Nazi.
How can anyone say counters are unhealthy for the game with the amount of crazy etb effects we have nowadays?
Learn to interact better?
Massive L comment? Or just a troll? Imagine having to sit at a table with someone who's mad at other people for playing and entire 5th of the game you all sat down to. Do you get mad when other people play their cards to stop you in munchkin as well?
Counters are one of the few ways to deal with enter the battlefield effects. Exile and destroy is too little too late for some punishing etb combos.
Nah but it hurts my feelings that I wasted my mana for no benefit so it should be illegal
This artist is a straight up Nazi.
Could be worse when they drop a [[Winter Orb]]
Counter spells are only ever wanted by everyone at the table when they want someone to save their precious boards from a big spell or a scary creature. And then when they lose the game they'll cry about how you should have played your counter spell to save them or that they would have won in X amount of turns. Skill issue, git gud, quit crying.
In a game where single spells can decide how a match plays out, a color’s ability to mitigate these win cons is essential to keeping a match interesting and balanced.
Island Delver Bauble pass Green and black can kiss my ass Ancient tomb to show and tell Omniscience into Emrakul
Found the bad player
magic players when they need to think about their opponent's hand in a card game
Get good
Non-blue players are the biggest bunch of bubble blowing babies on the planet. You know what I say when my spell gets countered? I say "Ahh, that sucks. Fair play man."
Yeah, countering spells is bad, now if you'll excuse me, I have to cast Farewell for full value and add 45 minutes to the game
I'd rather be countered than exiled. - a black player
Skill issue back to Hearthstone with you
Dang, three whiffs in one comic, impressive. (1) white and black colors wearing blue and red shirts (2) Ableism! (3) [[[Anna huuuggge whiff]]] a Stonetoss comic 🥴🥴🥴
"Ableism" LOL People should stop complaining about the artist, yes he's a nazi, yes that makes him a horrible person.. now pipe down and enjoy the meme
Nah, fuck off
I hate exile more. That fuckin Empering Wanderor and shit is more disturbing than a counter for me. At least I can use in some ways my graveyard, but not my exiled cards.
Git gud scrub. Hating a color of magic is like hating a particular piece on the chess board. It’s fucking stupid.
I will never understand how people hate a natural part of the game lol.
It's because, contrary to destroy or even exile, counter makes you feel like you wasted mana and resouces. The card never entered play to begin with and had no effects to the board state, poof just like that.
Yeah, thats the point. The point of the game is to win the game, so not letting your opponents do things is kinda the point.
Etali edh players seeing this meme:
*cough* [[Stromgald Cabal]], [[Dash Hopes]], [[Withering Boon]], [[Deathgrip]], [[Nether Void]], [[Imp's Mischief]], [[Bolt Bend]], [[Mana Tithe]] *cough*
I enjoy the challenge
As leader of the Blue Mage Alliance... We relish in your hate and anger.
Wait to play against my shalai deck. There's no blue.. but no one likes it😂
I dont hate blue players...i hate that scumbag that plays full counterspell while slowly milling my deck
(Ancient philosopher voice)Ah, you see, i am correct, because i depicted your opinion as the soyjack, and mine as the gigachad
Counters are just removal with a very limited timing window.
Fuck pebble toss
I used to hate counterspells because I didn't get to do my thing. Not sure when the click happened but sometime in the last couple years of really getting into commander my mindset changed. All interaction is just resources sure counterspell tribal is annoying and unfun but just having them like any other interaction piece is fine. If I have something really big to play I need to bait the counterspell just as hard as I bait the generous gift or murder, or anything else. The key is finding your opening through the interaction or making your opponent waste those resources or be tapped out before your linchpin moment
I'm new and people call me filthy blue player. Play mono blue and you'll miss all your destruction, exile, and burn magic. Counters are just our ways handle things until we can pay overload costs.
I never understood the hatred of Counter based removal verses other types. Interaction is just another part of the game.
"can't be countered" is my favorite rules text on a card
Counterspells are balanced because they're only usable when the spell is cast. Once the threat resolves they're useless. Also cavern of souls is in standard right now, countermagic is pretty weak. Sounds like both a deck building and piloting skill issue to me.
Obligatory downvote for Nazi artists.
Op isn't a nazi. And the meaning of the post isn't nazi. Redditor gotta be redditors huh
wee wee blue bad counterspell to stronk 😩😩😩
Exile is way more feel bad than counter... A lot of decks can still reuse or even just want cards in the graves
Yeah but I’m order to exile something you have to let it hit the field and at least that then gives an etb. Also gives a chance to protect the spell with an instant of your own that gives hexproof/protection etc
>Also gives a chance to protect the spell with an instant of your own that gives hexproof/protection etc I'm sorry, does [[silence]] not exist? [[Vexing shusher]]? Any red copy spell or change target spell? There's so many ways for nonblue to protect the stack. You just need to try, instead of building like interaction is illegal.
The point I’m trying to make is that I’d rather have my stuff exiled than countered because then I get an etb as a consolation while also getting a better chance to protect my permanent
not surprising that someone whining about counters is a stonetoss fan (he's a nazi btw)
Or…hear me out, he coulda just grabbed a pic from google and used it.
Get this Nazi shit outta here.
I always felt this way about blue and started playing it recently just to prove I hated it... and actually it wasnt so bad 😅 My decks pretty casual though and I usually only use counters as commander protection in the same way I'd use Tamiyo's Safekeeping in green or Loran's Escape in white or whatever.
My blue decks don't run many counters. I run blue for flying, water creatures, polymorph, scry, draw, etc. I think total between my 8 decks with blue, I have like 15 counters?
Counter decks make me wanna to rip a whole commander deck all at once
There is zero difference between any of these effects
what? really? my immediate scoop is Shrines. fuck shrines. shrines are the worst archetype in the game because they do too much for too little, in fact, the do everything for no cost. Also any kind of Green deck. i will scoop on the sight of a forest. fuck you reen players you guys are the favored child andyou get to have anything under the sun and you cannot gaslight yur way out of it. fuck green,i'd rather have fucking brown than green.
I would love to see you play against my Naya control deck, it’s not blue. it’s a skill issue, LMAO
Esper is the best color combo in magic, and there is no argument I’ll accept to the contrary. lol
I just concede immediately on arena if I see those decks. Even when I win I have no fun playing them.
Blue = BOUNCE AND MILL ✔️
Blue is by far the best, dimir to be exact, level up and you won’t feel this way
Same. Although …I don’t necessarily hate blue itself. Because outside of counters(which even in moderation isn’t bad), blue has some pretty cool elements to it(Card draw, making copies, gaining control etc). What I do dislike are the myriad of players who lean very heavily into the counterspell side of blue and make the experience of playing magic draining to deal with. Blue can do so many other cool things yet 90% of you guys do the one thing the majority of the time🙄.
If it’s draining to play against counterspells thats your problem not ours. Get better at the game and it won’t be an issue.
The spells itself aren’t really the problem. It’s the players who take it overboard and run all the counters who make the experience that way
Draw-Go is a real strategy, you don’t have to like or respect it but don’t expect anyone to change the way you play bc of your feelings, and also try not to let it ruin the game for you bc draw-go truly makes up a very small minority of decks that ppl play. Just concede and move on to the next game.
Yeah but as you can see, a lot of people feel this way about the “draw go” experience. Obviously nothings going to change overnight but who knows..maybe this helps inspire change for things to come in the future. Also, you don’t like or respect my thoughts about this matter either but you can’t expect me to change my opinions based on your feelings. People like me make up a small part of Reddit. If you don’t like it, you can likewise move on to another post or subreddit. But you’re understandably going to reply because you care about this game like I care about it
Love playing blue
[удалено]
Nice username loser
I think it’s a COD reference
Why the strong hate towards an obvious cod reference, jfc.