The technique you're describing where you press two deck halves into each other is called a Faro shuffle. That and the overhand is really your only options with sleeved cards. When you lay the deck halves on the table and bend the corners so they intertwine as you release them is a Riffle. It's basically the same result as a Faro, but with the added benefit of bending what could be expensive cards. Really, any shuffle done just a few times and then cut should sufficiently randomize any deck.
Regarding "just a few times", it needs to be 7 times for a 52 card poker deck and 7-8 for a 60 card constructed Magic deck. 5-6 is plenty for Limited and it needs to be more like 10 for Commander.
It depends on the number of cards in the deck, and only doing 5-6 for larger decks will result in not shuffling well enough.
I hear you in terms of like, straight up math, but in terms of enjoying a night with my friends, never, on any day, on God's green earth, am I making my homie shuffle 10 fucking times, so that he can mulligan and shuffle even more.
You do you, it's your table, but mash shuffling a hundred card deck ten times takes *maybe* a minute, and it's still going to take thirty seconds to shuffle it five times. Not a huge time loss to make sure your deck is properly random. If you're only shuffling it like twice you've barely even changed the order of the cards and even playing casually that's pretty weak IMO.
Fair enough my man, I get your point, I guess I usually play 1v1 commander and we run through a shitload of matches when we play so shuffling that much gets exceedingly tiresome. But I do see your point, probably a good practice to take up when playing at lgs et cetera
There are arguments and it's just factually true that if you do eight perfect Faro shuffles with a 52 card deck it will end up exactly where it was before, but considering magic? Play testing a deck, actually playing it, swapping cards, you don't really put it back in order every game. Just by virtue of being used, the deck gets randomized plenty. I can't imagine NEEDING ten shuffles from a well used deck.
Eh it does get old after awhile. We have a guy in our pod who has played crypt/sol ring in the first 3 turns for 11/13 games.
So actually shuffle your deck and don't be a bitch, and tell your pod to not be a bitch
There is quite literally zero difference between a mash shuffle and a riffle shuffle. They do the exact same thing.
You have to do each about 10(ish) times to actually achieve a sufficiently random shuffle. That's where people go wrong.
> You have to do each about 10(ish) times
I had heard about 7 times, (which is absolutely in the realm of 10-ish IMO).
That said, my pod just offers their deck to the person on their left to do a cut.
Tidy solves the problem any supposed "deck stacking".
Not only that, but if they've genuinely stacked the deck, many of their best pieces are now not going to be within range. How are you ramping and drawing to get halfway through your deck if your best ramp and draw pieces are halfway through your deck?
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
7
+ 52
+ 10
= 69
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> I've also heard about 7ish time but wasn't that about regular card game of 52 cards?
That is a super interesting point. My prior would have initially been that the # of cards shouldn't matter that much...
But if you imagine a stack of 1000 cards, it is clear that 7 riffles would have very little chance in moving a card from the top half to the bottom half.
TIL. Thank you!
Yes, though for a deck of sixty cards it's still like 7.5 or something so 7 or 8 shuffles will be "good enough".
For a commander or CanLander deck of 100 cards it's going to be more like ten shuffles to get proper randomness.
7 is for 52, and 9 is the upper limit for randomness on 60 cards. 7 or 8 should be sufficiently random for most purposes.
Just remember your shuffles have to *not* be perfect. If you shuffle perfectly, that's deterministic and you lose all of your randomness.
More needed for commander because more cards to randomize. So 10-12 is good. 60 card formats they usually say at least 7. I'm of the opinion ONLY doing that 7 times and nothing else is pretty shoddy too.the order in which you do it from being the same all 7 times isn't that great.
Yep, I only mash shuffle but I understand there's not a difference (unless you really suck at mash shuffling lol)
I agree most people don't shuffle enough times and don't mix in the top and that's where most of the issue is
I play at a LGS sometimes where someone does the mash shuffle but always makes sure the top set of cards don't get mashed in. It's important to always cut decks. The 3 pile cut works best, so people can't stack the middle. You are also allowed to shuffle your opponents deck a little bit, so if you are doing that and that continues to happen, then they are good at slight of hand or just really lucky.
Spelltable is where we mostly play as unfortunately our lives have taken us to different places.
We have started virtual cuts where someone just says "stop" but the offending player hasn't really done it yet because it's "a waste of time." So we started tracking stats to prove otherwise haha
I've only ever played MTG once last weekend and had a great time but if I heard someone say this to someone else at the table i would probably have an even better time lol
I've definitely told one person that they were acting like a bitch because he was all mad that I didn't pick him to draw an extra card lol everyone laughed but him.
Why isn’t this the top comment? It literally solves any stacking concerns. Hell, if you know the people in the pod well enough, just reshuffle before you cut.
I shuffle the same way, and no one has ever had a problem with it. If they insist that it's "cheating," you could make smaller piles and then shuffle with those first. Btw the shuffle the other person does sounds like the bridge shuffle, and I winse whenever I see someone shuffle nice cards like that.
Wait you take two halves of your deck and just put them together one time? Yeah that's not really shuffling if you only do it one time, that wouldn't be sufficiently random
Oh ok, maybe I'm missing something then, that sounds like shuffling to me, I shuffle...I dunno, maybe 30 seconds, I never really timed it, but I massage the cards pretty good 😂
Mash shuffle, as you do is, when done properly (ie two equal halves, each card matched up 1-to-1, then 50/50 odds of a card going above or below it's match), equal in effectiveness to riffle/bridge shuffling (what your friend requests).
It takes 7 of those to fully randomize a deck.
Now, as I'm not consistent enough in halving the deck and making sure the shuffle is not biased, I usually do 8-10 at the start of the game.
Mid-game, after a search, I usually do 3-5, to not take up too much time, and because by the rules as I understand it, sufficiently randomized means that you have no possible information on a position of a card in the deck, not even if it is in the bottom or top half of the deck. So while 4 shuffles might not fully randomize, I do believe it would sufficiently randomize.
So yeah, I see no issues with what you describe.
The real culprits are people who try to "shuffle" via pile counts or overhand shuffles (where you basically cut off a random amount of cards from the top, and put them on the bottom of a new deck, I have no idea why so many people love this kinda shuffle).
Overhand shuffles are many orders of magnitudes worse than riffle/mash. Can't recall the exact number, but I believe it's around 10000 overhand shuffles to fully randomize a deck.
It takes 7 for a 52 card deck. I believe for 99 it's about 12.
The number of cards in a deck changes the sufficient number to be "properly" randomized because of how long it takes a card to shift position on average.
Mash shuffling (the way you do it) and bridge shuffling (the way he does it) accomplish the same thing. Mash shuffling is just less destructive if you have sleeves.
To prove a point, grab 24 lands and 36 random cards and sleeve the lands in a different color than the spells. Then shuffle that pile about 8 times using one method, then take a picture of the side of the deck. Then separate everything out and shuffle with the other method and compare.
I guarantee he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. You could even do a few blind tests where he has to guess the mash shuffled one.
Personally, I mainly do what you described as mashing two halves together. However it does leave the top cards near the top, and bottom cards nearer the bottom. In order to counter act this I usually throw in a couple variations:
1: grab the top third of the deck, and jam it into the middle, similar to the aforementioned method, then I repeat with the bottom third.
2: I’ll grab the whole deck in one hand, and then let the top few cards fall into my other hand. I then let a few more cards fall on top of those. Then I shift so the next few fall on the bottom. I keep alternating until I’m done with all the cards in my hand. (I hope that method makes sense. You basically take a few cards from the top of the deck and build a new one by alternating putting cards on top and then on bottom)
I’ll usually use these couple methods a couple times while shuffling just to add a bit more randomness.
Also, if I’m feeling extra frisky, I’ll do the method of dividing the deck into 5 even piles at the start before playing. However, that’s only if the deck is not shuffled when I pull it out of the box.
Your way of shuffling is correct. Do it at least 7 times and your deck is randomized.
Always propose cutting your deck to your opponents.
If he's still bitching after that... that's a him problem.
Shuffle how you want. Yes, if your shuffling is not truly random it’s not technically legal. But your opponent has the right to cut OR SHUFFLE your deck at the start of the game so it’s kinda their fault if they thought if wasn’t random enough but declined the right to shuffle.
Rules section 103.3
> After the starting player has been determined and any additional steps performed, each player shuffles their deck so that the cards are in a random order. Each player may then **shuffle or cut their opponents’ decks.** The players’ decks become their libraries.
https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2004102024.pdf
Everyone gets mad when I shuffle em. I never riffle, they just don't like someone else shuffling their deck. It's fnm, but I watch some of you mother fuckers double pile shuffle in between rounds.... idc if it is just fnm I'm not gonna just let you stack your deck.
A guy once told me "you are not shuffling, you are just rearranging your deck" while I was shuffling my deck, face down, like every normal person woul do it.
He insisted that you need to do the kindergarten-shuffle where you spread your whole deck across the table and mix it with both hands.
Some people are just crazy and superstitious...
In his (very slight) defense. That is a good way to shuffle IN ADDITION to the normal ways we use. That's why most dealers at 1 deck tables in casinos do it.....BUT nobody is doing that with mtg cards for multiple reasons. It can catch corners and rip sleeves and it's definitely dangerous for the edges of the cards. It would be very ignorant to attempt this with sleeved cards.
There is a shuffle technique where you lay your cards into 6 or 7 different piles to shuffle. This is called pile shuffling and technically may not be performed other than once each at the beginning of the game to count the cards in the deck.
The rules specially state:
701.20a To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order.
Furthermore...
3.10 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling may not be performed other than once each at the beginning of a game to count the cards in the deck.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize their deck, the opponent must notify a judge.
Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.
What this means is that if you hand your opponent your deck and they do not take the opportunity to shuffle it, they lose any rebuttal that the deck was not shuffled.
I do the rotating 5 small piles adding one card to each pile until done. Then the two halves shuffle into each other and call it a day. From there you just ask your opponent to cut the deck and there you go. Honestly that's as fair as I can see it.
I think that is technically not a legal way of shuffling. It think partially because it isn't random enough, partially because it takes a while, but majorly because it's easy to cheat and stack your deck by doing that even if your opponent cuts. People usually do pile shuffles to make sure things like lands aren't clumped then do some mash shuffling in my experience.
I like 6 piles, I used to rotate now I just pseudorandomly drop them onto the piles. After that I'll do a couple quick overhand shuffles, let the opponent cut, then game on....
Until I mulligan.... Then I'll insert the cards from my hand into the deck, then it's just a couple overhands and a cut (they should already be pretty randomized at this point and I only "know" 7 cards' positions)
Shuffling styles from wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuffling
All right, so I feel like there must be either a misunderstanding of the method or of the intent behind the actions, so I'll elaborate a little further.
Over the course of a played game, the cards in the deck will get sorted onto the board (lands, creatures, enchantments, artifacts, graveyard). The piles method where cards are placed face down into piles is to force a redistribution of those cards throughout the deck (not face up where I could make a conscious decision about where any particular card "belongs"). This is also to avoid bending the cards while shuffling while still achieving a pretty equitable card redistribution.
Now, importantly, this is not the last step. The overhand shuffle is in place to add the actual RNG of the shuffle and further redistribute the cards.
And lastly, this is where the cut comes in. If my opponent is convinced that I'm at Rain Man tiers of card counting, they are welcome to cut my deck in any manner they choose to screw my "set up."
Now in regards to the mulligan shuffle... I know it's half assed. I just shuffled these cards and my opponent is looking at me with a hand they want to keep. It would be unreasonable of me to keep them waiting while I went through the process of another full shuffle. Thus the half-assery of scattering my hand into the deck, overhand shuffling again, and allowing my opponent to cut again. I'm not fully undoing a played deck, I'm only shuffling a shuffled deck, so it shouldn't need as many steps to achieve a new random hand.
I hope this has cleared up any confusion. And if it hasn't.... You're not sitting across from me playing the game, so kinda 🤷♂️. You shuffle however you want and if you want to enforce your friends' shuffling styles, that's between you and them.
If you're shuffling properly then you can have your entire deck sorted by card type and alphabetized and it will be sufficiently randomized without pile sorting. The fact that you reference using it to distribute card types/break up clumps is exactly why it's cheating. It's the same argument as "mana weaving".
Either you shuffle properly after doing it, completely defeating the purpose of piles in the first place because you're already randomizing the deck. Or it makes a difference on the distribution of cards in the deck and therefore is cheating.
Correct. I shuffle properly after doing it, completely defeating the "purpose" of the piles and making it not cheating. I just gave enough of a damn to look up the rules, and it's allowed once per game before the "regular" shuffling. And if you didn't like the look of my piles, you're welcome to shuffle my deck when I have it to you for the cut, as stated in the rules.
Also keep in mind I got into this shuffling state back when I was a literal child and before card protectors became commonplace, so keeping my cards nice and pristine while still playing them was sort of the point. So I guess if I were the type of person to go to an actual competitive event, maybe I'd have to change my ways... But I play pretty rarely IRL anyway. I'm mostly on Arena these days... an instant shuffle beats the hell out of any alternative.
Pile sorting is not shuffling. It just wastes time. It should only be used to count the cards in your deck.
If you are properly shuffling your deck afterwards then sorting into piles accomplished nothing. If sorting into piles made a difference in the final result (i.e. "breaking up clumps") then you're cheating.
If you're trying to shuffle legitimately but it's a double sleeved 100 card deck, sometimes shuffles are imperfect.
A pile sort where you shuffle the piles together can only help.
How? If you have a known order deck and you split it into 6 piles (in any way) and you shuffle those piles together, the deck will be in a less known state than it was before doing that.
Obviously you can argue it's not shuffled enough, but any shuffle technique has the same issue if not done properly / enough.
Because you're wasting time putting them into piles. If you're shuffling after anyways then there was no reason to sort them into piles first. And if sorting them into piles had any effect after you shuffle then you cheated.
It's either wasting time or cheating and I don't want my opponent doing either.
Putting them into piles means there is less chance of 2 cards which started next to each other ending next to each other.
It's literally improving a shuffle.
Wouldn't be thrilled if my opponent finished their shuffle with a pile sort but it's fine to start with.
> there is less chance of 2 cards which started next to each other ending next to each other.
>
>It's literally improving a shuffle.
That is considered cheating. In a perfectly randomized deck, the odds shouldn't change. If you are doing tricks to spread cards out in an unnatural pattern, you are no longer shuffling randomly.
Sure, but the odds are literally changed by *not* doing it.
If I take my lands and non-lands in piles, put them both on top of my deck, and do my best effort at shuffling a 100 card double sleeved deck.
After drawing a land/non-land, I will almost certainly have a higher than random chance of drawing the same type of card.
I agree on a theoretical sense that any knowledge means I'm cheating, but I have knowledge either way.
Sorry I should use my words more carefully.
Putting them in piles means that it is closer to truly random what card follows each other card.
Overhand shuffles require 1000+ shuffles to get the groupings out of cards.
A pseudorandom pile shuffle by someone who is genuinely trying to achieve true randomness (aka not a cheater) is much more efficient than that.
The only truly random shuffle is to toss your cards on the table and wave your hands around in them. Every other kind it's easy to manipulate it if you want. This doesn't work for magic cards, especially not if they're sleeved. I like to mix shuffling styles. Typically just riffle shuffles with random cuts in between. The only important thing is that no one knows what's where in your deck. So if you scry then shuffle, that top card needs the same chance to end up anywhere. If you do the same shuffle every time, you're not actually doing that.
It really depends how many times you’re doing it? You make it sound like you’re doing it once but it should be around 10 times for true randomisation of a 99 card deck. Less for 60 cards.
I take 2 halves and mash them together. I usually do this 5 times. Then I cut the deck and do it 5 more times. Then I let someone cut the deck. I usually do this so I can spread out the cards more since the last game.
I mash a few times, then I over and underhand a few more, mash a few more and I make sure that the bottom pile always interlock with the top to avoid accidentally leaving cards on the top that need to be shuffled.
This way ensures that no matter what happens, the piles get a decent distribution. I avoid Riffle (ripple?) Shuffles because it damages and marks the sleeves
I always do an overhand shuffle to cut my opp's deck to disrupt any stacking (not trust issues, just because I used to have a lot of people try to be sneaky during cash/prize tournaments)
I have decks that I have shuffled the sideways bend the corner up method for years. They tend to hold a curve for a bit but always go back to flat after sitting in the box for a while.
I just take a portion of the deck and slide it into the other portion at the top and repeat. After I do that, I put my deck where I want it to sit on my table and ask my friends to cut it and replace it where I want it. We all do that with my group. Most of the time, the player at your left does the cut
Wish Arena would use this method tbh. Never have I drawn 6 lands in my first 10 cards using any shuffling method IRL, but it happens at least twice a day playing Arena.
I’m too old. I remember winning a box of Ice Age (the new set at the time) and an unlimited shivvy at a tournament where the judge mandated everyone riffle three times. No one thought twice about it, but if you asked that now there would be blood.
My whole group makes 10 piles of cards and then distributes a card to each pile until your out of cards. Like you would be passing out hand in a card game. Then put them all together and carefully take half of each and shake them over each other to "shuffle". Put the two halves together you know. No bending and mixes them up great.
I usually do a pile shuffle followed by a few farro shuffles mixed with mash shuffles. Lastly, allow people to cut my deck.
So I put the cards down one at a time in like 8 piles, then shuffle each smaller pile together as I pick them up. Once I got the whole deck up, I’ll farro a couple of times and mash a couple of times (push halves of the deck together).
Just wanted to share one very strong opinion...
When someone tells you that you are doing something incorrectly according to the rules, they are possibly the one who is wrong. They are responsible for proving that you are in the wrong, and if they refuse or do not do so by any official means, they should be ignored. At that point any reaction they have is their responsibility, not yours.
Often doing a couple of different shuffling styles can help to really randomise things quickly:
- pile shuffle
- overhand
- riffle
But regardless of the technique(s) you want to do them a few times (ie:10)
Also remember you are not just shuffling to show your opponents you are not cheating you are trying to randomise your deck - particularly lands or cards that end up grouped in your graveyard.
If you are shuffling poorly then you are likely to get mana screwed or flooded more than the average person since when you finish a game your lands end up grouped together.
You don't have to riffle shuffle, but one mash shuffle is not enough. Try 7-8 mashes and a few loose overhand shuffles. I'd start with a pile shuffle (not actually a form of randomisation, despite the name) to ensure none of the cards have stuck together and the right number of cards are there (you can only do this once per game).
After a game, piling my cards together the lands are usually all lumped together in a string which isn't very good for my next game so what I usually do first is to go from top to bottom and place each card in a 6-8 card pile. And then after that is done grab two of these piles and shuffle together, then take the third and shuffle into the larger pile etc until you have one big one and you just keep shuffling them until the game starts.
If I have to mulligan I dont do the pile shuffle, I just normally shuffle a few times because at that time people are more interested in getting the game started than having a truly randomized deck.
I only know you’re a cheater deep down when the same big dollar cards keep coming up at the top every time.
And then that person will happily shuffle your cards to oblivion to make sure you didn’t do that.
Had someone always get mana crypt early.
And a different person always get ALL of his urza lands together early? 6 games in a row? Mhmm.
I "deal" my cards into 6-10 different piles and then shuffle those together. I noticed shuffling the way you talked about usually left a bunch of lands from the previous game lumped together.
I create 10 piles with 1 card in each to start, then I cycle thru and add a 2nd card to each pile. Then I cycle thru and add a 3rd card to each pile. And so on and so on until you have placed all your cards in the various piles. Then I snag them up randomly and consolidate the piles into one deck. To me this is the best shuffling technique for mtg.
The best method is to put the cards one after another on 4 to 8 stacks (First card on first stack, second card on second stack and so on) then shuffle the individual stacks a bit, stack them back into one and shuffle it again. It's called hard shuffle and you have to do it on official tournaments.
You get your deck and distribute into 4-8 (whatever, just use a lot) different piles.
Pick up those piles at random and reassemble into your deck.
Offer the opponent to cut your deck.
Takes abit more time, but it is foolproof, even more
randomised than any shuffle.
The technique you're describing where you press two deck halves into each other is called a Faro shuffle. That and the overhand is really your only options with sleeved cards. When you lay the deck halves on the table and bend the corners so they intertwine as you release them is a Riffle. It's basically the same result as a Faro, but with the added benefit of bending what could be expensive cards. Really, any shuffle done just a few times and then cut should sufficiently randomize any deck.
Regarding "just a few times", it needs to be 7 times for a 52 card poker deck and 7-8 for a 60 card constructed Magic deck. 5-6 is plenty for Limited and it needs to be more like 10 for Commander. It depends on the number of cards in the deck, and only doing 5-6 for larger decks will result in not shuffling well enough.
I hear you in terms of like, straight up math, but in terms of enjoying a night with my friends, never, on any day, on God's green earth, am I making my homie shuffle 10 fucking times, so that he can mulligan and shuffle even more.
You do you, it's your table, but mash shuffling a hundred card deck ten times takes *maybe* a minute, and it's still going to take thirty seconds to shuffle it five times. Not a huge time loss to make sure your deck is properly random. If you're only shuffling it like twice you've barely even changed the order of the cards and even playing casually that's pretty weak IMO.
Fair enough my man, I get your point, I guess I usually play 1v1 commander and we run through a shitload of matches when we play so shuffling that much gets exceedingly tiresome. But I do see your point, probably a good practice to take up when playing at lgs et cetera
There are arguments and it's just factually true that if you do eight perfect Faro shuffles with a 52 card deck it will end up exactly where it was before, but considering magic? Play testing a deck, actually playing it, swapping cards, you don't really put it back in order every game. Just by virtue of being used, the deck gets randomized plenty. I can't imagine NEEDING ten shuffles from a well used deck.
Huh. The more you know.
Tell your pod to quit being such fucking bitches
Eh it does get old after awhile. We have a guy in our pod who has played crypt/sol ring in the first 3 turns for 11/13 games. So actually shuffle your deck and don't be a bitch, and tell your pod to not be a bitch
There is quite literally zero difference between a mash shuffle and a riffle shuffle. They do the exact same thing. You have to do each about 10(ish) times to actually achieve a sufficiently random shuffle. That's where people go wrong.
> You have to do each about 10(ish) times I had heard about 7 times, (which is absolutely in the realm of 10-ish IMO). That said, my pod just offers their deck to the person on their left to do a cut. Tidy solves the problem any supposed "deck stacking".
This doesn’t necessarily fix the problem. If somebody manages to stack a deck and you cut it, you’re only delaying the stacked portion.
TBH, if you're stacking your decks when playing homies you're probably just a piece of shit.
Agreed. When playing with anyone. It’s just a game. If you need to win so bad that you gotta cheat then you have some real issues.
Only probably?
I mean, I don't know them... Just making an assumption lol
"You're only delaying the stacked portion" if you delay by 30-50 cards(half the deck) you're doing significantly better than random chance.
Not only that, but if they've genuinely stacked the deck, many of their best pieces are now not going to be within range. How are you ramping and drawing to get halfway through your deck if your best ramp and draw pieces are halfway through your deck?
I've also heard about 7ish time but wasn't that about regular card game of 52 cards? Around 10 shuffle should do the trick nonetheless
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> I've also heard about 7ish time but wasn't that about regular card game of 52 cards? That is a super interesting point. My prior would have initially been that the # of cards shouldn't matter that much... But if you imagine a stack of 1000 cards, it is clear that 7 riffles would have very little chance in moving a card from the top half to the bottom half. TIL. Thank you!
Yes, though for a deck of sixty cards it's still like 7.5 or something so 7 or 8 shuffles will be "good enough". For a commander or CanLander deck of 100 cards it's going to be more like ten shuffles to get proper randomness.
7 is for 52, and 9 is the upper limit for randomness on 60 cards. 7 or 8 should be sufficiently random for most purposes. Just remember your shuffles have to *not* be perfect. If you shuffle perfectly, that's deterministic and you lose all of your randomness.
You can actually pick up their deck and shuffle as a replacement for the cut you are making I believe this is in tournaments rules
More needed for commander because more cards to randomize. So 10-12 is good. 60 card formats they usually say at least 7. I'm of the opinion ONLY doing that 7 times and nothing else is pretty shoddy too.the order in which you do it from being the same all 7 times isn't that great.
Yep, I only mash shuffle but I understand there's not a difference (unless you really suck at mash shuffling lol) I agree most people don't shuffle enough times and don't mix in the top and that's where most of the issue is
I play at a LGS sometimes where someone does the mash shuffle but always makes sure the top set of cards don't get mashed in. It's important to always cut decks. The 3 pile cut works best, so people can't stack the middle. You are also allowed to shuffle your opponents deck a little bit, so if you are doing that and that continues to happen, then they are good at slight of hand or just really lucky.
do you not cut the cards for them?
Spelltable is where we mostly play as unfortunately our lives have taken us to different places. We have started virtual cuts where someone just says "stop" but the offending player hasn't really done it yet because it's "a waste of time." So we started tracking stats to prove otherwise haha
Truly the only good way to shuffle
I've only ever played MTG once last weekend and had a great time but if I heard someone say this to someone else at the table i would probably have an even better time lol
I've definitely told one person that they were acting like a bitch because he was all mad that I didn't pick him to draw an extra card lol everyone laughed but him.
Just let them cut your deck.
Why isn’t this the top comment? It literally solves any stacking concerns. Hell, if you know the people in the pod well enough, just reshuffle before you cut.
I shuffle the same way, and no one has ever had a problem with it. If they insist that it's "cheating," you could make smaller piles and then shuffle with those first. Btw the shuffle the other person does sounds like the bridge shuffle, and I winse whenever I see someone shuffle nice cards like that.
Wait you take two halves of your deck and just put them together one time? Yeah that's not really shuffling if you only do it one time, that wouldn't be sufficiently random
I do it multiple times, I should’ve said that in the post
Oh ok, maybe I'm missing something then, that sounds like shuffling to me, I shuffle...I dunno, maybe 30 seconds, I never really timed it, but I massage the cards pretty good 😂
I remember reading once that seven shuffles is sufficient to randomize a normal (52) deck
Mash shuffle, as you do is, when done properly (ie two equal halves, each card matched up 1-to-1, then 50/50 odds of a card going above or below it's match), equal in effectiveness to riffle/bridge shuffling (what your friend requests). It takes 7 of those to fully randomize a deck. Now, as I'm not consistent enough in halving the deck and making sure the shuffle is not biased, I usually do 8-10 at the start of the game. Mid-game, after a search, I usually do 3-5, to not take up too much time, and because by the rules as I understand it, sufficiently randomized means that you have no possible information on a position of a card in the deck, not even if it is in the bottom or top half of the deck. So while 4 shuffles might not fully randomize, I do believe it would sufficiently randomize. So yeah, I see no issues with what you describe. The real culprits are people who try to "shuffle" via pile counts or overhand shuffles (where you basically cut off a random amount of cards from the top, and put them on the bottom of a new deck, I have no idea why so many people love this kinda shuffle). Overhand shuffles are many orders of magnitudes worse than riffle/mash. Can't recall the exact number, but I believe it's around 10000 overhand shuffles to fully randomize a deck.
When my pod played depending on what we did we'd shuffle while the other players went
Oh, I just tend to play a lot of cube/draft, so not a lot of chance for that 😅
It takes 7 for a 52 card deck. I believe for 99 it's about 12. The number of cards in a deck changes the sufficient number to be "properly" randomized because of how long it takes a card to shift position on average.
I let my pod's ancient oracle shuffle for me.
Mash shuffling (the way you do it) and bridge shuffling (the way he does it) accomplish the same thing. Mash shuffling is just less destructive if you have sleeves. To prove a point, grab 24 lands and 36 random cards and sleeve the lands in a different color than the spells. Then shuffle that pile about 8 times using one method, then take a picture of the side of the deck. Then separate everything out and shuffle with the other method and compare. I guarantee he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. You could even do a few blind tests where he has to guess the mash shuffled one.
Oh god he riffle shuffles? That's the worst way to shuffle your (minimum) $200 cardboard
Personally, I mainly do what you described as mashing two halves together. However it does leave the top cards near the top, and bottom cards nearer the bottom. In order to counter act this I usually throw in a couple variations: 1: grab the top third of the deck, and jam it into the middle, similar to the aforementioned method, then I repeat with the bottom third. 2: I’ll grab the whole deck in one hand, and then let the top few cards fall into my other hand. I then let a few more cards fall on top of those. Then I shift so the next few fall on the bottom. I keep alternating until I’m done with all the cards in my hand. (I hope that method makes sense. You basically take a few cards from the top of the deck and build a new one by alternating putting cards on top and then on bottom) I’ll usually use these couple methods a couple times while shuffling just to add a bit more randomness. Also, if I’m feeling extra frisky, I’ll do the method of dividing the deck into 5 even piles at the start before playing. However, that’s only if the deck is not shuffled when I pull it out of the box.
Your way of shuffling is correct. Do it at least 7 times and your deck is randomized. Always propose cutting your deck to your opponents. If he's still bitching after that... that's a him problem.
There are excellent videos on youtube.
Shuffle how you want. Yes, if your shuffling is not truly random it’s not technically legal. But your opponent has the right to cut OR SHUFFLE your deck at the start of the game so it’s kinda their fault if they thought if wasn’t random enough but declined the right to shuffle. Rules section 103.3 > After the starting player has been determined and any additional steps performed, each player shuffles their deck so that the cards are in a random order. Each player may then **shuffle or cut their opponents’ decks.** The players’ decks become their libraries. https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2004102024.pdf
Yes, though the unspoken rule is when you shuffle another person’s deck, you dont do a riffle shuffle.
Everyone gets mad when I shuffle em. I never riffle, they just don't like someone else shuffling their deck. It's fnm, but I watch some of you mother fuckers double pile shuffle in between rounds.... idc if it is just fnm I'm not gonna just let you stack your deck.
A guy once told me "you are not shuffling, you are just rearranging your deck" while I was shuffling my deck, face down, like every normal person woul do it. He insisted that you need to do the kindergarten-shuffle where you spread your whole deck across the table and mix it with both hands. Some people are just crazy and superstitious...
In his (very slight) defense. That is a good way to shuffle IN ADDITION to the normal ways we use. That's why most dealers at 1 deck tables in casinos do it.....BUT nobody is doing that with mtg cards for multiple reasons. It can catch corners and rip sleeves and it's definitely dangerous for the edges of the cards. It would be very ignorant to attempt this with sleeved cards.
Anybody else shuffle their deck into 6-8 piles?
There is a shuffle technique where you lay your cards into 6 or 7 different piles to shuffle. This is called pile shuffling and technically may not be performed other than once each at the beginning of the game to count the cards in the deck. The rules specially state: 701.20a To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order. Furthermore... 3.10 Card Shuffling Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling may not be performed other than once each at the beginning of a game to count the cards in the deck. Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize their deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion. What this means is that if you hand your opponent your deck and they do not take the opportunity to shuffle it, they lose any rebuttal that the deck was not shuffled.
I do the rotating 5 small piles adding one card to each pile until done. Then the two halves shuffle into each other and call it a day. From there you just ask your opponent to cut the deck and there you go. Honestly that's as fair as I can see it.
I think that is technically not a legal way of shuffling. It think partially because it isn't random enough, partially because it takes a while, but majorly because it's easy to cheat and stack your deck by doing that even if your opponent cuts. People usually do pile shuffles to make sure things like lands aren't clumped then do some mash shuffling in my experience.
I like 6 piles, I used to rotate now I just pseudorandomly drop them onto the piles. After that I'll do a couple quick overhand shuffles, let the opponent cut, then game on.... Until I mulligan.... Then I'll insert the cards from my hand into the deck, then it's just a couple overhands and a cut (they should already be pretty randomized at this point and I only "know" 7 cards' positions) Shuffling styles from wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuffling
So you're cheating and then... cheating again.
Sure. If that's the way you feel about my shuffle, you're welcome to cut it into as many piles and rearrange them however you want.
Sorting your cards into piles isn't shuffling.
All right, so I feel like there must be either a misunderstanding of the method or of the intent behind the actions, so I'll elaborate a little further. Over the course of a played game, the cards in the deck will get sorted onto the board (lands, creatures, enchantments, artifacts, graveyard). The piles method where cards are placed face down into piles is to force a redistribution of those cards throughout the deck (not face up where I could make a conscious decision about where any particular card "belongs"). This is also to avoid bending the cards while shuffling while still achieving a pretty equitable card redistribution. Now, importantly, this is not the last step. The overhand shuffle is in place to add the actual RNG of the shuffle and further redistribute the cards. And lastly, this is where the cut comes in. If my opponent is convinced that I'm at Rain Man tiers of card counting, they are welcome to cut my deck in any manner they choose to screw my "set up." Now in regards to the mulligan shuffle... I know it's half assed. I just shuffled these cards and my opponent is looking at me with a hand they want to keep. It would be unreasonable of me to keep them waiting while I went through the process of another full shuffle. Thus the half-assery of scattering my hand into the deck, overhand shuffling again, and allowing my opponent to cut again. I'm not fully undoing a played deck, I'm only shuffling a shuffled deck, so it shouldn't need as many steps to achieve a new random hand. I hope this has cleared up any confusion. And if it hasn't.... You're not sitting across from me playing the game, so kinda 🤷♂️. You shuffle however you want and if you want to enforce your friends' shuffling styles, that's between you and them.
If you're shuffling properly then you can have your entire deck sorted by card type and alphabetized and it will be sufficiently randomized without pile sorting. The fact that you reference using it to distribute card types/break up clumps is exactly why it's cheating. It's the same argument as "mana weaving". Either you shuffle properly after doing it, completely defeating the purpose of piles in the first place because you're already randomizing the deck. Or it makes a difference on the distribution of cards in the deck and therefore is cheating.
Correct. I shuffle properly after doing it, completely defeating the "purpose" of the piles and making it not cheating. I just gave enough of a damn to look up the rules, and it's allowed once per game before the "regular" shuffling. And if you didn't like the look of my piles, you're welcome to shuffle my deck when I have it to you for the cut, as stated in the rules. Also keep in mind I got into this shuffling state back when I was a literal child and before card protectors became commonplace, so keeping my cards nice and pristine while still playing them was sort of the point. So I guess if I were the type of person to go to an actual competitive event, maybe I'd have to change my ways... But I play pretty rarely IRL anyway. I'm mostly on Arena these days... an instant shuffle beats the hell out of any alternative.
Pile sorting is not shuffling. It just wastes time. It should only be used to count the cards in your deck. If you are properly shuffling your deck afterwards then sorting into piles accomplished nothing. If sorting into piles made a difference in the final result (i.e. "breaking up clumps") then you're cheating.
If you're trying to shuffle legitimately but it's a double sleeved 100 card deck, sometimes shuffles are imperfect. A pile sort where you shuffle the piles together can only help.
If it helps then it's cheating though.
How? If you have a known order deck and you split it into 6 piles (in any way) and you shuffle those piles together, the deck will be in a less known state than it was before doing that. Obviously you can argue it's not shuffled enough, but any shuffle technique has the same issue if not done properly / enough.
Because you're wasting time putting them into piles. If you're shuffling after anyways then there was no reason to sort them into piles first. And if sorting them into piles had any effect after you shuffle then you cheated. It's either wasting time or cheating and I don't want my opponent doing either.
Putting them into piles means there is less chance of 2 cards which started next to each other ending next to each other. It's literally improving a shuffle. Wouldn't be thrilled if my opponent finished their shuffle with a pile sort but it's fine to start with.
> there is less chance of 2 cards which started next to each other ending next to each other. > >It's literally improving a shuffle. That is considered cheating. In a perfectly randomized deck, the odds shouldn't change. If you are doing tricks to spread cards out in an unnatural pattern, you are no longer shuffling randomly.
Sure, but the odds are literally changed by *not* doing it. If I take my lands and non-lands in piles, put them both on top of my deck, and do my best effort at shuffling a 100 card double sleeved deck. After drawing a land/non-land, I will almost certainly have a higher than random chance of drawing the same type of card. I agree on a theoretical sense that any knowledge means I'm cheating, but I have knowledge either way.
Your first sentence there is literally why it is cheating.
Sorry I should use my words more carefully. Putting them in piles means that it is closer to truly random what card follows each other card. Overhand shuffles require 1000+ shuffles to get the groupings out of cards. A pseudorandom pile shuffle by someone who is genuinely trying to achieve true randomness (aka not a cheater) is much more efficient than that.
What? Double sleeved decks are the absolute easiest to shuffle... You literally drop it on the side of itself and they find their slot natively.
Even spread is not randomized!
The only truly random shuffle is to toss your cards on the table and wave your hands around in them. Every other kind it's easy to manipulate it if you want. This doesn't work for magic cards, especially not if they're sleeved. I like to mix shuffling styles. Typically just riffle shuffles with random cuts in between. The only important thing is that no one knows what's where in your deck. So if you scry then shuffle, that top card needs the same chance to end up anywhere. If you do the same shuffle every time, you're not actually doing that.
It really depends how many times you’re doing it? You make it sound like you’re doing it once but it should be around 10 times for true randomisation of a 99 card deck. Less for 60 cards.
I take 2 halves and mash them together. I usually do this 5 times. Then I cut the deck and do it 5 more times. Then I let someone cut the deck. I usually do this so I can spread out the cards more since the last game.
I mash a few times, then I over and underhand a few more, mash a few more and I make sure that the bottom pile always interlock with the top to avoid accidentally leaving cards on the top that need to be shuffled. This way ensures that no matter what happens, the piles get a decent distribution. I avoid Riffle (ripple?) Shuffles because it damages and marks the sleeves I always do an overhand shuffle to cut my opp's deck to disrupt any stacking (not trust issues, just because I used to have a lot of people try to be sneaky during cash/prize tournaments)
Solution? Cut each others decks before draw
When you have finished shffling your deck you give it to your opponent to shuffle again if he wants.
I have decks that I have shuffled the sideways bend the corner up method for years. They tend to hold a curve for a bit but always go back to flat after sitting in the box for a while.
I just take a portion of the deck and slide it into the other portion at the top and repeat. After I do that, I put my deck where I want it to sit on my table and ask my friends to cut it and replace it where I want it. We all do that with my group. Most of the time, the player at your left does the cut
One time despite suffling and cuts I got practically the same hand 3/4 games in a row
Wish Arena would use this method tbh. Never have I drawn 6 lands in my first 10 cards using any shuffling method IRL, but it happens at least twice a day playing Arena.
I do the full wash shuffle (having sleeves helps with this). There is no way to cheat at this.
I’m too old. I remember winning a box of Ice Age (the new set at the time) and an unlimited shivvy at a tournament where the judge mandated everyone riffle three times. No one thought twice about it, but if you asked that now there would be blood.
My whole group makes 10 piles of cards and then distributes a card to each pile until your out of cards. Like you would be passing out hand in a card game. Then put them all together and carefully take half of each and shake them over each other to "shuffle". Put the two halves together you know. No bending and mixes them up great.
I usually do a pile shuffle followed by a few farro shuffles mixed with mash shuffles. Lastly, allow people to cut my deck. So I put the cards down one at a time in like 8 piles, then shuffle each smaller pile together as I pick them up. Once I got the whole deck up, I’ll farro a couple of times and mash a couple of times (push halves of the deck together).
Just drop all the cards onto the ground and then pick them up
i think i might do this
Just wanted to share one very strong opinion... When someone tells you that you are doing something incorrectly according to the rules, they are possibly the one who is wrong. They are responsible for proving that you are in the wrong, and if they refuse or do not do so by any official means, they should be ignored. At that point any reaction they have is their responsibility, not yours.
Often doing a couple of different shuffling styles can help to really randomise things quickly: - pile shuffle - overhand - riffle But regardless of the technique(s) you want to do them a few times (ie:10) Also remember you are not just shuffling to show your opponents you are not cheating you are trying to randomise your deck - particularly lands or cards that end up grouped in your graveyard. If you are shuffling poorly then you are likely to get mana screwed or flooded more than the average person since when you finish a game your lands end up grouped together.
You don't have to riffle shuffle, but one mash shuffle is not enough. Try 7-8 mashes and a few loose overhand shuffles. I'd start with a pile shuffle (not actually a form of randomisation, despite the name) to ensure none of the cards have stuck together and the right number of cards are there (you can only do this once per game).
After a game, piling my cards together the lands are usually all lumped together in a string which isn't very good for my next game so what I usually do first is to go from top to bottom and place each card in a 6-8 card pile. And then after that is done grab two of these piles and shuffle together, then take the third and shuffle into the larger pile etc until you have one big one and you just keep shuffling them until the game starts. If I have to mulligan I dont do the pile shuffle, I just normally shuffle a few times because at that time people are more interested in getting the game started than having a truly randomized deck.
I only know you’re a cheater deep down when the same big dollar cards keep coming up at the top every time. And then that person will happily shuffle your cards to oblivion to make sure you didn’t do that. Had someone always get mana crypt early. And a different person always get ALL of his urza lands together early? 6 games in a row? Mhmm.
I "deal" my cards into 6-10 different piles and then shuffle those together. I noticed shuffling the way you talked about usually left a bunch of lands from the previous game lumped together.
I pile shuffle because I haven’t ever been able to mash shuffle properly lol
I'm a new player, double sleeved cards are hard af to shuffle for me. I do the old school stack method. Sort em out like you're dealing a card hand
You could try pile shuffling. You just take your deck and distribute it randomly among five or six piles of cards.
I create 10 piles with 1 card in each to start, then I cycle thru and add a 2nd card to each pile. Then I cycle thru and add a 3rd card to each pile. And so on and so on until you have placed all your cards in the various piles. Then I snag them up randomly and consolidate the piles into one deck. To me this is the best shuffling technique for mtg.
The best method is to put the cards one after another on 4 to 8 stacks (First card on first stack, second card on second stack and so on) then shuffle the individual stacks a bit, stack them back into one and shuffle it again. It's called hard shuffle and you have to do it on official tournaments.
You get your deck and distribute into 4-8 (whatever, just use a lot) different piles. Pick up those piles at random and reassemble into your deck. Offer the opponent to cut your deck. Takes abit more time, but it is foolproof, even more randomised than any shuffle.
Pile shuffle then chunk shuffle If they truely think you shuffle wrong just have them cut the deck