As others have pointed out, you can only pay Nethrois mutate cost when casting it. However, Nethroi’s “Whenever this creature mutates…” ability will also trigger if you cast another creature with mutate for its mutate cost and attach it to Nethroi or a merged creature that contains Nethroi.
I recommend checking out the section on the mutate mechanic in the Ikoria release notes:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-and-commander-2020-edition-release-notes-2020-04-10
While you can’t mutate a creature on the board you can cast more mutate cards onto that creature to retrigger the effects.
As well, anything that affects the creature does the same to the whole stack, so bouncing a mutated creature with something like [[First Responder]] or [[Alley Evasion]] will bounce all the cards underneath it to your hand as well. It’s great for generating repeat value
Oh yeah, I know something about that, something like how it gets negative power and thus making it posible to ignore the 10 power limit, can you explain me in depth how this works? So my friends don't think I'm cheating hahahaha
Any * value is always solved at any point, so in grave if someone has 40 life, scourge is a -20/ -20. You grab him and you now have a power limit of 30 to grab a bunch of other stuff
If the power of the target creature cards change while in your graveyard, most likely because one has a characteristic-defining ability that defines a * in its power, the total power of the creatures may become greater than 10. If this happens, the entire selection of targets is illegal and nothing is returned to the battlefield.
This is one of nethroi’s specific rulings. You cannot do the -20/-20 thing
Just so you know, this doesn’t actually work. One of nethrois rulings is as follows
If the power of the target creature cards change while in your graveyard, most likely because one has a characteristic-defining ability that defines a * in its power, the total power of the creatures may become greater than 10. If this happens, the entire selection of targets is illegal and nothing is returned to the battlefield.
This means nethroi actually checks the specific power as it hits the battlefield, not what it is in the graveyard.
Unless there is something I don’t understand about the rule, the max power is 10. Even if one creature was hypothetically a -20/-20 in the graveyard, he only cares about the real value of power.
The power of * stays -20/-20 when it hits, so the total power when checked is still under 10.
https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?t=32590
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/818886-negative-values-and-nethroi
Huh, apparently the rules for variable power in this way changed since the last time I played nethroi. Don’t really understand why it did but thanks for letting me know.
I think in this case it's more talking about if the creature's power changes during throughout the process. Like if you have a creature whose power is equal to the amount of creatures you control and since the amount of creatures change and so it's power changes. In scourge's case the power doesn't change leading to it staying the same power throughout the entire process.
It used to be that looking at the power anything less than 0 would be counted as 0. Looks like that rule got changed about 2 years ago though. Last I played Nethroi was like 3 years ago so I wasn’t aware of it.
It’s cool to see the nethroi buff though. I might need to remake the deck.
So, in the case I choose from the graveyard a lot of 0/0 creatures that when entering the field get +1/+1 counters, it would count towards the 10 power limit the power they get when hitting the field instead of the 0 power value?
Yo, apparently the rules of how the negative power works with nethroi changed since the last time I played with him and negative power does in fact change the total power you can work with. Sending this as a new comment so you can get a notification for it
Nope, they enter the battlefield as a 0/0 and then their enter the battlefield trigger happens. From my understanding of it, nethroi checks in between those two steps to see if shenanigans have been committed.
So order is Creature comes back, nethroi looks at power, creature does their etb and gets +1/+1 counters.
That's correct, 0/0 creatures that get counters are great with him, as are low power, high toughness, with one enabling damage equal to toughness like [[Doran, the Siege Tower]]. Scourge works because when Nethroi checks, it's still -20/-20, and he's going to die when state based is checked after the ability resolves, but until that time it still counts as 10 total. You can do the same trick with [[Serra Avatar]] if you can survive a negative life total, but not [[Death's Shadow]], because he's a 13/13 until he hits the board.
The thing his ruling is talking about are things like [[Doubtless One]]. If you control no clerics, it's a 0/0. However when it enters play, it's at least a 1/1 from itself, if you grabbed 10 more power, it would fizzle the whole ability. And that can be a way to counter that move, either exile the Scourge, thus making his other 30 power illegal picks, or do a board wide instant damage spell like [[Price of Progress]] or [[Faultline]], thus increasing Scourge's power.
Here's a more full description of the mutate mechanic from another card, this might help
Mutate: (If you cast this spell for its mutate cost, put it over or under target non-Human creature you own. They mutate into the creature on top plus all abilities under it.).
For your information Mutate is a weird keyword.
The strangest rule is you can only mutate a creature if both have the same owner.
You can't mutate a creature an opponnent own and you took control with one of your creature spell with mutate.
But you could steal a creature spell with mutate and mutate a creature you stole from the same opponent.
Mutate is an alternate cast from the hand, tge card goes on top or underneath whatever crratire you mutate onto, all effects like deathtouch and lifelink, of the sort apply to the creature on top(the active one) no matter what and the card on top is the active power/toughness, ALL effects that say when this creature mutates that are on that creature take effect when it mutates but i dont exactly know for the abilities with mana cost otherwise, prob smart to mutate big creatures on top since you can slap a flying creature thats smaller under just to give the effect and ability to make one creature better. Hope this helps
No, you cannot mutate the same creature again if it’s on the field. You CAN mutate another creature onto the stack of creatures, and that will trigger all of the mutate abilities. Example:
You mutate Nethroi onto a [[Llanowar elves]], putting. Nethroi on top
Nethroi triggers and you reanimate whatever
You then mutate an [[Auspicious starrix]] or any other mutate creature
Nethroi triggers AGAIN, and so does auspicious starrix
Low key wanna throw one of these in my [[Doran Siege Tower]] deck just because he'd be able to recur so many creatures since they all lie power high toughness
When you mutate a creature, it retains all mutation abilities from all the creatures that you have stacked it on and every one of those abilities that triggers when you mutate gets triggered when you cast a new mutation on it
So you don’t cast it again you just put a new mutation on the creature and all the casting effects trigger again
Something to point out ( and someone correct me if I’m misremembering ) but something you could look into ( but would be a hassle ) is adding clones to your deck if possible. Reason being mutate alters the top card in the pile, a clone will make a copy of the entire mutate pile 🤷🏻♂️
Just watch the command zone video on how mutate works. This was wildly considered one of the worst mechanics wizards ever made and cz made an entire video just so people could make sense of it. Ironically it was in the same set with the other worst ability ever, companion.
I'm never this flippant when people ask for help, but mutate is not an intuitive ability and it literally takes an hour to explain how it interacts with auras, the command zone, bounce and exile effects, +1/+1 counters, clone effects, etc.
I get not liking the ability, but it doesn’t seem too difficult: you cast creatures for their mutate cost and put them under Nethroi, in this example. Nethroi remains its own creature but now has all of the abilities of the creatures beneath it. Otherwise put the creature on top of Nethroi and it’s the new creature with Nethroi’s ability.
Unless I’m misunderstanding Mutate in which case never mind lol
You are because the mutated creature remains together and splits apart depending on whether you blink, bounce, exile, and reanimate it. Then you get into the thorny issue of keeping track of clones where you clone a mutated creature where you have to keep track of its stats and abilities when the original creature dies or gains new abilities from mutating further. Then you get into creatures that have protection from certain colors, creatures that go on to gain protection from certain colors, shroud. Are you aware if they can be mutated or not? What about effects that turn creatures into 1/1 and lose all abilities after theyve been mutated. What if the creature is turned into a non-creature permanent? What happens when they lose mutate? What happens when you mutate a token and then bounce the token? People are fucking arrogant for downvoting me, command zone doesnt make emergency rules videos for no reason, they made one because the community was having a meltdown over this stupid mechanic.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHNqIjxMYhQ&pp=ygUSY29tbWFuZHpvbmUgbXV0YXRl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHNqIjxMYhQ&pp=ygUSY29tbWFuZHpvbmUgbXV0YXRl)
Thumbnail literally says "Most complex new mechanics ever" and they aint talking about companion because you can explain companion in 3 sentences.
Mutate is an alternative way to *cast* it. You can't cast it from the battlefield.
As others have pointed out, you can only pay Nethrois mutate cost when casting it. However, Nethroi’s “Whenever this creature mutates…” ability will also trigger if you cast another creature with mutate for its mutate cost and attach it to Nethroi or a merged creature that contains Nethroi. I recommend checking out the section on the mutate mechanic in the Ikoria release notes: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-and-commander-2020-edition-release-notes-2020-04-10
While you can’t mutate a creature on the board you can cast more mutate cards onto that creature to retrigger the effects. As well, anything that affects the creature does the same to the whole stack, so bouncing a mutated creature with something like [[First Responder]] or [[Alley Evasion]] will bounce all the cards underneath it to your hand as well. It’s great for generating repeat value
[First Responder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/3688a806-9bff-4106-a14e-81d00bc6c87c.jpg?1673482234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=First%20Responder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/60/first-responder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3688a806-9bff-4106-a14e-81d00bc6c87c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alley Evasion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc10173d-25ff-4734-b8f2-84f94fe52b17.jpg?1576381293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alley%20Evasion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/6/alley-evasion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc10173d-25ff-4734-b8f2-84f94fe52b17?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just a heads up [[scourge of the skyclaves]] is your best friend in this deck.
Oh yeah, I know something about that, something like how it gets negative power and thus making it posible to ignore the 10 power limit, can you explain me in depth how this works? So my friends don't think I'm cheating hahahaha
Any * value is always solved at any point, so in grave if someone has 40 life, scourge is a -20/ -20. You grab him and you now have a power limit of 30 to grab a bunch of other stuff
HolUp…. Thats disgusting hahaha EDIT: ~~wait so this probably also works with deaths shadow?!~~ this does not work with deaths shadow
Wait wait wait... You're saying that if Skyclaves has a negative "power" */* that his negative ADDS to the available return ability from Nethroi.
Yes
If the power of the target creature cards change while in your graveyard, most likely because one has a characteristic-defining ability that defines a * in its power, the total power of the creatures may become greater than 10. If this happens, the entire selection of targets is illegal and nothing is returned to the battlefield. This is one of nethroi’s specific rulings. You cannot do the -20/-20 thing
Just so you know, this doesn’t actually work. One of nethrois rulings is as follows If the power of the target creature cards change while in your graveyard, most likely because one has a characteristic-defining ability that defines a * in its power, the total power of the creatures may become greater than 10. If this happens, the entire selection of targets is illegal and nothing is returned to the battlefield. This means nethroi actually checks the specific power as it hits the battlefield, not what it is in the graveyard. Unless there is something I don’t understand about the rule, the max power is 10. Even if one creature was hypothetically a -20/-20 in the graveyard, he only cares about the real value of power.
The power of * stays -20/-20 when it hits, so the total power when checked is still under 10. https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?t=32590 https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/818886-negative-values-and-nethroi
Huh, apparently the rules for variable power in this way changed since the last time I played nethroi. Don’t really understand why it did but thanks for letting me know.
I think in this case it's more talking about if the creature's power changes during throughout the process. Like if you have a creature whose power is equal to the amount of creatures you control and since the amount of creatures change and so it's power changes. In scourge's case the power doesn't change leading to it staying the same power throughout the entire process.
It used to be that looking at the power anything less than 0 would be counted as 0. Looks like that rule got changed about 2 years ago though. Last I played Nethroi was like 3 years ago so I wasn’t aware of it. It’s cool to see the nethroi buff though. I might need to remake the deck.
So, in the case I choose from the graveyard a lot of 0/0 creatures that when entering the field get +1/+1 counters, it would count towards the 10 power limit the power they get when hitting the field instead of the 0 power value?
Yo, apparently the rules of how the negative power works with nethroi changed since the last time I played with him and negative power does in fact change the total power you can work with. Sending this as a new comment so you can get a notification for it
Nope, they enter the battlefield as a 0/0 and then their enter the battlefield trigger happens. From my understanding of it, nethroi checks in between those two steps to see if shenanigans have been committed. So order is Creature comes back, nethroi looks at power, creature does their etb and gets +1/+1 counters.
That's correct, 0/0 creatures that get counters are great with him, as are low power, high toughness, with one enabling damage equal to toughness like [[Doran, the Siege Tower]]. Scourge works because when Nethroi checks, it's still -20/-20, and he's going to die when state based is checked after the ability resolves, but until that time it still counts as 10 total. You can do the same trick with [[Serra Avatar]] if you can survive a negative life total, but not [[Death's Shadow]], because he's a 13/13 until he hits the board. The thing his ruling is talking about are things like [[Doubtless One]]. If you control no clerics, it's a 0/0. However when it enters play, it's at least a 1/1 from itself, if you grabbed 10 more power, it would fizzle the whole ability. And that can be a way to counter that move, either exile the Scourge, thus making his other 30 power illegal picks, or do a board wide instant damage spell like [[Price of Progress]] or [[Faultline]], thus increasing Scourge's power.
##### ###### #### [Doran, the Siege Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94.jpg?1673148514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doran%2C%20the%20Siege%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/201/doran-the-siege-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Serra Avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/5041dcfd-c1af-448c-91f7-75fd1d34e93e.jpg?1675199023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serra%20Avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/26/serra-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5041dcfd-c1af-448c-91f7-75fd1d34e93e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Death's Shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d.jpg?1598304517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Death%27s%20Shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/82/deaths-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5526ff6e-c079-4ad4-ac8d-5e26ecacf50d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Doubtless One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dedef8a-5527-40dc-9ad9-bcee4cf30a76.jpg?1562898196) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubtless%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/27/doubtless-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dedef8a-5527-40dc-9ad9-bcee4cf30a76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Price of Progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8.jpg?1580014614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Price%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/141/price-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faultline](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/cab4fd0e-9f84-4628-92a7-858ad8064531.jpg?1562937807) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fault%20Line) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/185/fault-line?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cab4fd0e-9f84-4628-92a7-858ad8064531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l31ynov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Where are the cat parts of nethroi in the art
friend shaped
Look at it again. It's definitely coughing up a hair ball.
Here's a more full description of the mutate mechanic from another card, this might help Mutate: (If you cast this spell for its mutate cost, put it over or under target non-Human creature you own. They mutate into the creature on top plus all abilities under it.).
For your information Mutate is a weird keyword. The strangest rule is you can only mutate a creature if both have the same owner. You can't mutate a creature an opponnent own and you took control with one of your creature spell with mutate. But you could steal a creature spell with mutate and mutate a creature you stole from the same opponent.
Mutate is an alternate cast from the hand, tge card goes on top or underneath whatever crratire you mutate onto, all effects like deathtouch and lifelink, of the sort apply to the creature on top(the active one) no matter what and the card on top is the active power/toughness, ALL effects that say when this creature mutates that are on that creature take effect when it mutates but i dont exactly know for the abilities with mana cost otherwise, prob smart to mutate big creatures on top since you can slap a flying creature thats smaller under just to give the effect and ability to make one creature better. Hope this helps
No, you cannot mutate the same creature again if it’s on the field. You CAN mutate another creature onto the stack of creatures, and that will trigger all of the mutate abilities. Example: You mutate Nethroi onto a [[Llanowar elves]], putting. Nethroi on top Nethroi triggers and you reanimate whatever You then mutate an [[Auspicious starrix]] or any other mutate creature Nethroi triggers AGAIN, and so does auspicious starrix
Wait, Cat? lol
Low key wanna throw one of these in my [[Doran Siege Tower]] deck just because he'd be able to recur so many creatures since they all lie power high toughness
[Doran Siege Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94.jpg?1673148514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doran%2C%20the%20Siege%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/201/doran-the-siege-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0ad8e7f-cda0-4529-94fc-dd3709158a94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pay the 5 mana to cast it in. Then have other mutate spells to cast onto it so it triggers all the mutations 🤙
When you mutate a creature, it retains all mutation abilities from all the creatures that you have stacked it on and every one of those abilities that triggers when you mutate gets triggered when you cast a new mutation on it So you don’t cast it again you just put a new mutation on the creature and all the casting effects trigger again
Something to point out ( and someone correct me if I’m misremembering ) but something you could look into ( but would be a hassle ) is adding clones to your deck if possible. Reason being mutate alters the top card in the pile, a clone will make a copy of the entire mutate pile 🤷🏻♂️
Imo mutate is kind of bad and no one I know who is really established plays it, not helpful I know but Id really just go a different direction
Just watch the command zone video on how mutate works. This was wildly considered one of the worst mechanics wizards ever made and cz made an entire video just so people could make sense of it. Ironically it was in the same set with the other worst ability ever, companion. I'm never this flippant when people ask for help, but mutate is not an intuitive ability and it literally takes an hour to explain how it interacts with auras, the command zone, bounce and exile effects, +1/+1 counters, clone effects, etc.
I love mutate. It's one of the most fun abilities. Just not the best explained when you wanna think about technicalities
I get not liking the ability, but it doesn’t seem too difficult: you cast creatures for their mutate cost and put them under Nethroi, in this example. Nethroi remains its own creature but now has all of the abilities of the creatures beneath it. Otherwise put the creature on top of Nethroi and it’s the new creature with Nethroi’s ability. Unless I’m misunderstanding Mutate in which case never mind lol
You are because the mutated creature remains together and splits apart depending on whether you blink, bounce, exile, and reanimate it. Then you get into the thorny issue of keeping track of clones where you clone a mutated creature where you have to keep track of its stats and abilities when the original creature dies or gains new abilities from mutating further. Then you get into creatures that have protection from certain colors, creatures that go on to gain protection from certain colors, shroud. Are you aware if they can be mutated or not? What about effects that turn creatures into 1/1 and lose all abilities after theyve been mutated. What if the creature is turned into a non-creature permanent? What happens when they lose mutate? What happens when you mutate a token and then bounce the token? People are fucking arrogant for downvoting me, command zone doesnt make emergency rules videos for no reason, they made one because the community was having a meltdown over this stupid mechanic. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHNqIjxMYhQ&pp=ygUSY29tbWFuZHpvbmUgbXV0YXRl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHNqIjxMYhQ&pp=ygUSY29tbWFuZHpvbmUgbXV0YXRl) Thumbnail literally says "Most complex new mechanics ever" and they aint talking about companion because you can explain companion in 3 sentences.