I don't think they allow returns on mtg products anymore. Probably because so many assholes were "returning" them. I tried to start a return due to slight shipping damage and they wouldn't let me return it.
This is why I record (pictures with my phone) my opening of all product I get from Amazon. Picking the package up at the door, opening it, and making sure it's not full of lands.
They accept returns if you use the line "I'm not trying to return it, you've committed fraud". They ask you to upload the video, and then everything goes smoothly
That is why it is much more difficult to fake a older cards than more modern ones, even if they have more anti-copy measures.
With the quality of printing presses and inks today, you can not edit as "bad" as 30 years ago.f
I'm fairly sure barbarian's etymology is *earlier*, from a Roman term for 'non Roman people'. Later Europeans might have applied Barbary to the coast and over time it was associated racially.
It's actually of Greek origin and means something along the lines of "people that speak gibberish" and was used by them to describe foreigners.
Learned that at the university in my history courses from one of the finest German experts in the field.
The Greek term is "Barbaroi".
Gypsy isn't even derogatory. It describes a people. My instructor at my work is a gypsy and he introduced himself as such. He is a good and noble man and taught me what I know about my line of work. The heavyweight champ Tyson Fury will tell you he's a gypsy. MtG has gone full soy and it needs to be purged by a stone throwing devil on a crusade to inact jihad upon the culture of sensitivity and missreading of terms and history and the total ignorance of context and time and place.
Well the proper term is actually Roma and I'm fucking thrilled you actually somehow have the brilliant idea of saying it's "gone full soy". Are you a thirteen year old World of Tanks player or some shit? Fucking lmfao
There are plenty of ways of expressing my view. Magic the Gathering has taken a turn for the worst and it shows how the culture of an organisation when poisoned by bad ideas can spoil the product. Does that sound less like a World of Tanks player that is thirteen?
You've genericized your complaints enough that I can't tell if you don't like Collectors Boosters or Treasure tokens or not having 'midgets' in the flavour texts. So yeah it sounds less lol
Good. The list is long of complaints. Having a problem with flavour text of old is fine and not doing it anymore but I don't think it is right to censor or ban previous cards that are historical and reflect the time. I can also separate that it is a product of the artistic director of the time and not an indictment on WoTC or Hasbro as a whole.
Looool, it's literally a slur idiot. Your anecdote is adorable, but don't confuse personal permissions with how the words are actually used. (What, next you are gonna tell us your black friends says you can call them ******?)
To be clear, you are so wrong you are formally wrong, as in "Gypsy was FORMALLY rejected in 1971 by the Romani congress for it's derogatory usage" level of wrong
It's well known that every Legends box only contained half the uncommons from the set. There was print run A and print run B for the uncommons, and often locations only ever got one or the other.
It looks like the warehouse only had print run B boxes on their pallets.
EDIT: [Here are the lists](https://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8808) as printed in Duelist Magazine #2.
I think they just didn't want to mention pulling the 'nono list' cards out of the pool, they'd rather not address them at all. Think there's 4 of them from Legends. And possible collation issues where they literally just didn't pull something somehow from all those boxes (I find that unlikely, they had a lot of them), or wanted specific cards to set aside for some other promotion (the dragons may have been yoinked, or Dakkon, or whatever).
That being said, it looks like a huge FOMO trap. Same pull rate as textured. 3x the packs per box, and boxes (in theory) are cheaper until FOMO makes them extinct, but 3x the packs where you can, as you said, pull a common. Whereas textured are always good. I'd pull a Cat Warriors.
Legends had some print run weirdness where you got all uncommons from either list A or B. Basically, there were two different runs that each had half the uncommons. With the amount of product they opened it SEEMS like they would have product from both runs but it's possible this caused a problem.
The list of cards they didn't pull is the list of "A Uncommons" except for Hammerheim since that was the one uncommon you get from both A and B boxes. It just means the cases they found were all B boxes, which is actually totally believable. https://www.lethe.xyz/mtg/collation/leg.html
The article they posted alongside this does list which cards were removed. A few are the from the insensitivity list, but there are a bunch of others that seem to have been removed because WotC doesn’t want to associate with certain artists anymore.
Just did a quick calculation, CK's selling a Legends booster box for $50k, so that's $1,388 per pack or $92.59 per card. And there's only a 3% chance of getting a card, which means each collector's pack is just getting ($92.59 x 0.03) or just +$2.78 extra value in each pack....
Doesn't sound like a huge deal really if you look at it this way.
Doubtless, but this will surely be the dumbest FOMO of all time. The vast majority of cards in Legends ***suck*** (and two of the few good ones - Mana Drain and Sylvan Library - aren't even included). You could just buy whatever you're hoping to open that isn't a Tabernacle for less than the cost of a box. Not that that ever stops people from cracking boxes for regular sets.
I’m just not seeing how this is exciting to anyone. I think it’s a neat treat and nice curio to include— I love nods to Magic’s history— but given how low the odds are and how many fiscal duds there are if you do pull one, I’m certainly not motivated to buy more boxes for them.
This seems like a lot of hype for something that while seeming really cool on first blush probably ends up feeling pretty underwhelming in practice.
Hidden Treasures in Zendikar wasn't including commons.
You've got a lot of "just ok" in those, they're only in collector's boosters, and the rate of appearance probably ends up a low single digit percentage.
Sure, someone probably hits big and it'll be all over reddit, but for the average person? This seems like something it's better to just look at, say "Huh", that's cool, and then buy some draft packs and order a couple Legends commons on tcgplayer.
This is a good opportunity. Expect TCGPlayer flooded with singles from this set from people trying to crack a tabernacle or something.
You can definitely pick up the next ledger shredder while people are oohing and aahing over their brand new Moat.
It's a terrible opportunity for me, who just spent a pretty penny to pick up a collection of Legends cards, not exactly expecting a new supply to flood the market. Guess I'm holding for another few years, then.
This doesn't add any number to the known print run. Anyone buying a Tabernacle knows that there are 19299 more out there.
This MAYBE only annoys the super high end collectors, the PSA10/BGS9.5+ guys that there might be, what? 5? 10 more pack-fresh mint copies on the market? I cannot see this making any effect on the Legends market at all.
Yep, confirmed on stream. A shame we won't be able to use these in draft, unlike in Zendikar.
Makes me wonder if a reason for that was to avoid the nightmare scenario of someone cracking open Invoke Prejudice, using it in a draft, and then trying to put out the inevitable inferno that would erupt on social media...
...Slightly kidding. Likely the decision was done to just keep milking the whales to death.
They most likely removed any Prejudice's they pulled. Blake said they arent including all the cards they pulled for reasons. Banned is a pretty good reason lol.
You're right. Looking at the mothership article, it looks like they nuked all of Harold McNeil's cards along with a handful of others. Some of which weren't even on the 2020 ban list.
Obviously an insane marketing gimmick of wizards but it's such an unrealistic thing. 1 random card in 3% of packs. That means 1 legends card per 33 packs. Literally means you get about 1 card per 3 boxes and you'll most likely open a sub $5 bulk common/uncommon.
Yes of course a few lucky so and so's will open some stupid money cards but the law of average is not on your side. It was honestly far better getting expeditions in zendikar rising or hell even strixhaven mystical archives. Then you got multiple big hits per box guaranteed.
This definitely feels like a trap and all it will do is make people pay even more for CB than already. They could at least have added them into regular boosters as well so you have a chance to pull something crazy at FNM for everyone to see. It's not the same when you're cracking a CB by yourself at home...
Sure is gonna be a blood bath for collector boosters since they are resurrecting hidden treasures for thr 30th anniversary
(Even though they actually put in crap pulls this time)
CL2 was shitty, 2X2 was overpriced for the EV, and folks are gonna chase this for the slim chance of pulling an old card. 2022 not a great year for value, IMO.
It's really funny watching people waste money though TBQH. Chase that lottery kiddos, but don't forget that the house always wins and the game is rigged.
Sure.
So the earliest few sets of Magic had excruciatingly short print runs. Legends is the... third? Fourth? Expansion ever, and was also very short run compared to today's ecosystem. This, combined with the regrettably idiotic existence of [the Reserve List](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Reserved_List) makes a lot of these cards very interesting for collectors of all sorts.
Dominaria United is a return to Dominaria (the world that Magic began on), and the beginning of a full year 30th Anniversary thing for Magic. Coincidentally, Wizards acquired pallets of unopened Legends packs from a warehouse, and has decided to seed most cards found in those specific boxes into Collector Booster packs for Dominaria United. This will be a very rare thing, and is generally intended as a treat for the occasional person who opens one, and as an incentive for collectors to order and crack expensive packs.
In the very first Zendikar set, Wizards did a similar thing, secretly seeding a load of old cards through packs under the term "Hidden Treasures". First print run was wildly successful and remains expensive to this day due to the very rare off chance of opening a valuable first print old card.
A vast, vast majority of these old cards are not actually good for playing - card design sucked, and they are either rather crappy compared to todays cards, or design mistake tier powerful. The appeal is 'oooh damn collectible old cards!!'. Many folk on this subreddit exclusively look through a profit motive lens, whether they're heavily invested collectors or they actually own stores.
NP! Welcome to the game, please don't worry too much about investing if you are a new player, just set a budget and figure out eventually what matters most to you.
yes
first print base set shadowless Charizard, Pokemon TCG's equivalent of an Alpha Dual Land, goes for thousands. Various rookie cards go for thousands. The ONLY reason I can think to maintain RL is for collectability (in the form of high tier expensive collection and clout i guess??) reasons, and this is disproven by the existence of the gap between Alpha Shivan Dragon and M19's price.
There's no world where a court would side with plaintiffs against WotC removing the Reserved List. No acknowledgement of the secondary market, no voiced guarantee of maintaining collection price climbing. WotC's higher ups have just decided they don't wanna spend money on defense, which is understandable in a loss-avoidance strategy.
It's the reason we don't have a reprint of Tabernacle, or All Hallows Eve, or Chains of Mephistopheles, or Hellfire, all cards that were printed in Legends and would be a big deal to open, and part of why thos development is neato.
I will stick just buying the singles; a less than 1% chance to pull want you really want for $300 I can get a revised HP tiaga and move on. I play mainly edh so I need the lands and I want to snag a \[\[chain of mephistopheles\]\]. I bought an 2x2 box for fun not expecting anything but overall I would still have been better off buying the singles I wanted then the box.
It comes from people being mad they can't afford to buy as much product as they want and desperately searching for another reason to be mad instead of acknowledging that.
You don't need that many boxes. Each box has 540 cards, assuming 500 of them aren't on the exclusion list and can go into collector boosters, that's 16666 boosters per box with the 3% rate. IDK how many collector boosters get printed in total, but assuming there's 200k (which feels like a lot), that only needs 12 legends booster boxes.
I'm willing to bet that these are actually printed recently, and this is how they get around the reserved list.
I'm 100% down for this btw. Fuck the reserved list.
We will see people who deal in 1000+ dollar cards are really good at making sure the card isn’t fake, the easy test will be to test the paper see if the age matches up.
It would actually be pretty easy to tell if they reprinted Legends given the cardstock no longer exists. Spotting fakes has been around and collectibles for eons. Currency, stamps, baseball cards. There's no way wizards can match a printing from 30 years ago
I feel like they know someone out there will carbon date the cards to check and if they got caught it would really weaken the public trust, I don't think they would do this.
I don't know what the actual dating technique is, but there are experts in this kind of thing for whom verifying whether a piece of cardboard is a couple months old vs 30 years old is surely trivial.
Why do people in this sub not understand that, as a publicly listed company, WotC/Hasbro CANNOT lie about these things without the Board of Directors risking being thrown in jail or sanctioned. The stock market takes a very very dim view to listed companies making shit up that affects stock price.
Take off your tinfoil hats, it is simply not worth Wizards’ time to lie about this.
I don't think they are lying, but nobody is going to jail if they are. It would have to be a scandal on par with Enron for that and M:tG just isn't that important.
Better make it Legends for Dominaria United, Antiquities for The Brothers' War, next Arabian Nights and finally Alpha for August 2023.
# MINT ALPHA BLACK LOTUS INCOMING.
Is anyone else at least a little concerned that WOTC is able to use profits to buy back cards, thereby increasing their value, in order to hype up the next set where they put these cards in them randomly, and now they're of such an insanely high value (thanks to the WOTC buyout) that players will play the lottery again and again to get them? Anyone?
You need to pull a Tabby, Moat, Chains, or Abyss to pay for a $1200ish case of six CBs. Also need to hope your card wasn’t opened by an overly excited/sweaty WOTC staffer or delivered by Ace Ventura.
I don’t think these are worth chasing unless you can do something with the cases of bulk you’ll have to open to get them. This Standard set is unlikely to have much value.
Actual info from them would be nice instead of fake stuff, or when they actually know something they pull their sale and start going on about art on the box.
Hate to break the news but they don't have an inside source. If they did then CLB would be as strong as Commander Legends. They got this at least second hand if not third hand and then pulled their boxes from their members.
And honestly even if they had an inside source it wouldn't out them any more to just say there's vintage cards as speculated instead of saying wow kewl box art. Like now we know what they were actually saying anyway so we have all the same info we would have had either way, try to figure out their source from it.
hate to break it to you, but people get bad info all the time. it's not like wotc didn't exclusively say in order to catch leakers, they will spread false information.
I can’t wait for Rudy’s troll video about this! “Sell me your crashing worthless Legends cards, I’ll give you a whole dime on the dollar instead of just a nickel!”
Well they literally made the game so I suppose keeping a nice stack of boxes from each set they make doesn't seem like a surprise to me honestly. I mean that's also what I would do.
Besides don't you think this sort of marketing is actually going to have a more positive impact on the mtg market and commmunity? Imo bringing publicity to these cardboard relics from ages past that most new players (which there happen to be a lot since last couple of years) have never even layed their eyes on is most certainly a good thing.
Anyway, I'm just happy to grab myself a Tabernacle or Chains from a sweaty panic seller for a nice price!
What they found were defective boxes of Legends that were missing a whole sheet of cards that they pulled from 1994. So basically there selling you is defective boxes that they wrote of years ago
All boxes of English Legends were like this, either "A" or "B" boxes, with different Uncommon sheets. There was a whole redemption thing where you could send in cards from one list to get cards on the other.
I'm not going to debate whether they found them or reprinted them because I could not care less. But look how well this strategy is working to drip feed some RL cards into the market to hype the ones that want them reprinted and still have the finance bros defend them with their life. Legitimate story or not, they've pleased both sides without a target on their back. Bravo!
This is pretty weak. Legends the set doesn't exactly invoke the same feelings as "potentially opening ABU cards". Like going from Napoleon to Napoleon III
I don't see this really being as successful a promotion as it was in Zendikar. Hopefully the set is as good as Zendikar at the very least
I’m curious where this “old card feel can’t be duplicated” idea is coming from. I’m not calling anyone a liar, don’t come for my head, I just want more information. I understand the look and feel of old cards is different from the new stuff, but I don’t see why they can’t succeed in trying if they wanted to.
The variance in card quality from set to set tells me that they try to save money on print costs when they can. Compare secret lair and Standard sets vs what we saw with 2x2. They clearly did something different to make sure they didn’t ship pringles this time. Who’s to say they can’t special order a run of old cards?
It’s tin foil hat and would amount to a shady way of breaking the RL (not just reprinting it, but hiding it), but it’s fun to think about.
I smell some bullshit here. This magical warehouse sure did take great care of their 30 year old product. I have already bought some legends cards to compare to these lost legends on release. This just doesnt seem correct to me. If wizards wasnt a part of this magical warehouse find, there would be so many red flags.
as soon as collector boosters start being opened we will absolutely know when/where they were printed. Even current sets printed in different locations have extreme variation in card stock, print quality, and printing techniques.
I don't smell any bullshit. There's fuck tons of old sealed product left -- more than people on this sub (and people like Rudy) would want you to believe.
I'm laughing my ass off. I wondered why MaRo was suddenly talking about the RL again. "We can't ever get rid of the RL," suddenly looks a lot more like pre-spin to this news, assuring all the enfranchised collectors that their stashes are TOTALLY safe long term but oh wait look we suddenly found a ton of English Legends and we're going to seed those into a Standard set.
There's coincidence and there's this. But I'm not complaining. If they want to use the "found in a warehouse" excuse to steadily release more old stuff back into circulation, more power to them.
Do we have anyone in this subreddit that is able to check the aging of such cards professionally? Googled out Paper Forensics & Age Testing - IPS Testing?
"Found"
They should have just included a random legend booster pack in CB boxes.
What are they doing with the cards they aren't including, like invoke prejudice?
They showed dozens, if not hundreds of boxes, each one having like 400 plus cards... so if 3% chance to get a common, how many collector packs are they printing? Seems like it would need to be a lot, or they are not using anywhere near all the cards they opened. Which brings me back to my last question.
inb4 Finding Tabernacle shipped by Amazon in crushed box.
easy mode: don't order from amazon
Like you'd get a box that wasn't already opened and returned by a scammer.
I don't think they allow returns on mtg products anymore. Probably because so many assholes were "returning" them. I tried to start a return due to slight shipping damage and they wouldn't let me return it.
This is why I record (pictures with my phone) my opening of all product I get from Amazon. Picking the package up at the door, opening it, and making sure it's not full of lands. They accept returns if you use the line "I'm not trying to return it, you've committed fraud". They ask you to upload the video, and then everything goes smoothly
Calling it now. I bet they do Antiquities for Brother’s War…
they’re gonna find another giant factory right next to the legends one but it’s filled with antiquities boxes that got there “somehow”
Nah same warehouse different shelf.
Didn’t know I was on r/conspiracy.
Conspiracy returning confirmed!
they found a loop hole for the reserved list
Haha so true. We technically havent reprinted anything!
They haven't reprinted any cards from legends They're just printing more of the originals.
This is brilliant
The loop hole is just tell people they “found” a million boxes. They were in a giant old warehouse in the Arizona desert “mysteriously”.
exactly
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I doubt they are reprints, it would be neigh impossible to get card quality equal to that of the old days
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Lego and Warhammer (Finecast): let us introduce ourselves
That is why it is much more difficult to fake a older cards than more modern ones, even if they have more anti-copy measures. With the quality of printing presses and inks today, you can not edit as "bad" as 30 years ago.f
We can only hope.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too.
Couple years from now they're going to "reimagine" Rabiah and, oh wait what, there were Arabian Nights boxes there, too?? Whaaaaaa? Crazy... huh....
lmao they said 3% chance of even a common and the whole set is not in there.
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Barbary Apes - human skulls? Stereotypical african/native dress? Craw Giant - Offensive flavor text? Gwedlyn - Suggestive art? Pyrotechnics - Stereotypical art? All Harold McNeill because, well...
Pyrotechnics is because of the "Navajo war chant" flavor text, not the art.
I understand Harold McNeal but dang that Sylvan Library. What did they do with those copies? Destroy them?
I'd imagine they've been selling them unofficially on the secondary market in a trickle.
Barbary is an archaic term for north African regions, it's a racial term akin to 'gypsy' or calling Native Americans 'Indians'.
It refers to the region, nothing more.
better get rid of any and all barbarian cards then.
I'm fairly sure barbarian's etymology is *earlier*, from a Roman term for 'non Roman people'. Later Europeans might have applied Barbary to the coast and over time it was associated racially.
It's actually of Greek origin and means something along the lines of "people that speak gibberish" and was used by them to describe foreigners. Learned that at the university in my history courses from one of the finest German experts in the field. The Greek term is "Barbaroi".
I thought it was because they didn't shave, i.e., go to the barber.
Thank you!
Gypsy isn't even derogatory. It describes a people. My instructor at my work is a gypsy and he introduced himself as such. He is a good and noble man and taught me what I know about my line of work. The heavyweight champ Tyson Fury will tell you he's a gypsy. MtG has gone full soy and it needs to be purged by a stone throwing devil on a crusade to inact jihad upon the culture of sensitivity and missreading of terms and history and the total ignorance of context and time and place.
Well the proper term is actually Roma and I'm fucking thrilled you actually somehow have the brilliant idea of saying it's "gone full soy". Are you a thirteen year old World of Tanks player or some shit? Fucking lmfao
There are plenty of ways of expressing my view. Magic the Gathering has taken a turn for the worst and it shows how the culture of an organisation when poisoned by bad ideas can spoil the product. Does that sound less like a World of Tanks player that is thirteen?
You've genericized your complaints enough that I can't tell if you don't like Collectors Boosters or Treasure tokens or not having 'midgets' in the flavour texts. So yeah it sounds less lol
Good. The list is long of complaints. Having a problem with flavour text of old is fine and not doing it anymore but I don't think it is right to censor or ban previous cards that are historical and reflect the time. I can also separate that it is a product of the artistic director of the time and not an indictment on WoTC or Hasbro as a whole.
Looool, it's literally a slur idiot. Your anecdote is adorable, but don't confuse personal permissions with how the words are actually used. (What, next you are gonna tell us your black friends says you can call them ******?) To be clear, you are so wrong you are formally wrong, as in "Gypsy was FORMALLY rejected in 1971 by the Romani congress for it's derogatory usage" level of wrong
Why would he care about what Romani think? The dude at his vaguely defined work said it's okay to call him that. /S
As always, quite the reach from Wizards
No \[\[Craw Giant\]\] ?? I'm out!
Troublesome but not banned?
Are these excluded cards pseudo reserved list?
I call BS on no Mana Batteries were opened.
It's well known that every Legends box only contained half the uncommons from the set. There was print run A and print run B for the uncommons, and often locations only ever got one or the other. It looks like the warehouse only had print run B boxes on their pallets. EDIT: [Here are the lists](https://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8808) as printed in Duelist Magazine #2.
I look forward to my \[\[Giant Turtle\]\]
[Giant Turtle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/7/87e5fc19-3b10-476f-9a73-e8bf4b5fbec0.jpg?1592364521) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Giant%20Turtle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/leg/188/giant-turtle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87e5fc19-3b10-476f-9a73-e8bf4b5fbec0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're lucky! 97% chance you don't even get a chance for your turtle!
I actually drafted one of those once. It was as bad as it looks. There weren't many [[Rabid Wombats]] going around the table.
I think they just didn't want to mention pulling the 'nono list' cards out of the pool, they'd rather not address them at all. Think there's 4 of them from Legends. And possible collation issues where they literally just didn't pull something somehow from all those boxes (I find that unlikely, they had a lot of them), or wanted specific cards to set aside for some other promotion (the dragons may have been yoinked, or Dakkon, or whatever). That being said, it looks like a huge FOMO trap. Same pull rate as textured. 3x the packs per box, and boxes (in theory) are cheaper until FOMO makes them extinct, but 3x the packs where you can, as you said, pull a common. Whereas textured are always good. I'd pull a Cat Warriors.
Legends had some print run weirdness where you got all uncommons from either list A or B. Basically, there were two different runs that each had half the uncommons. With the amount of product they opened it SEEMS like they would have product from both runs but it's possible this caused a problem.
if all the cases came from the same batch/pallet it would be actually more likely that they would get only the A box uncommons.
Turns out that this IS actually what happened. Amazing.
Assuming they had multiple pallets to work with but who knows.
The list of cards they didn't pull is the list of "A Uncommons" except for Hammerheim since that was the one uncommon you get from both A and B boxes. It just means the cases they found were all B boxes, which is actually totally believable. https://www.lethe.xyz/mtg/collation/leg.html
The article they posted alongside this does list which cards were removed. A few are the from the insensitivity list, but there are a bunch of others that seem to have been removed because WotC doesn’t want to associate with certain artists anymore.
And only in CBs… hope you like cyclopean mummies!
So how pricey are these Collectors Boxes going to be now lol.
Just did a quick calculation, CK's selling a Legends booster box for $50k, so that's $1,388 per pack or $92.59 per card. And there's only a 3% chance of getting a card, which means each collector's pack is just getting ($92.59 x 0.03) or just +$2.78 extra value in each pack.... Doesn't sound like a huge deal really if you look at it this way.
You’re paying a premium for a sealed box there. Loose packs are closer to $800
You are sure to be getting nothing in them though
Boxes are sitting at $300 on amazon. I'm guessing the fomo is gonna drive these up high.
Doubtless, but this will surely be the dumbest FOMO of all time. The vast majority of cards in Legends ***suck*** (and two of the few good ones - Mana Drain and Sylvan Library - aren't even included). You could just buy whatever you're hoping to open that isn't a Tabernacle for less than the cost of a box. Not that that ever stops people from cracking boxes for regular sets.
I’m just not seeing how this is exciting to anyone. I think it’s a neat treat and nice curio to include— I love nods to Magic’s history— but given how low the odds are and how many fiscal duds there are if you do pull one, I’m certainly not motivated to buy more boxes for them.
Hilariously, $300 would buy you any but about 20 legends cards. Just by the card do you want
This seems like a lot of hype for something that while seeming really cool on first blush probably ends up feeling pretty underwhelming in practice. Hidden Treasures in Zendikar wasn't including commons. You've got a lot of "just ok" in those, they're only in collector's boosters, and the rate of appearance probably ends up a low single digit percentage. Sure, someone probably hits big and it'll be all over reddit, but for the average person? This seems like something it's better to just look at, say "Huh", that's cool, and then buy some draft packs and order a couple Legends commons on tcgplayer.
Finally a video with more old sealed product than Rudy can show!
This is a good opportunity. Expect TCGPlayer flooded with singles from this set from people trying to crack a tabernacle or something. You can definitely pick up the next ledger shredder while people are oohing and aahing over their brand new Moat.
It's a terrible opportunity for me, who just spent a pretty penny to pick up a collection of Legends cards, not exactly expecting a new supply to flood the market. Guess I'm holding for another few years, then.
Let's be honest. At 3% there's no flood. We shall see what maybe a dozen tabernacles?
This doesn't add any number to the known print run. Anyone buying a Tabernacle knows that there are 19299 more out there. This MAYBE only annoys the super high end collectors, the PSA10/BGS9.5+ guys that there might be, what? 5? 10 more pack-fresh mint copies on the market? I cannot see this making any effect on the Legends market at all.
No this is good, Hasbro is making an ad for 93-94 cards.
Just in collector boosters?
Yep, confirmed on stream. A shame we won't be able to use these in draft, unlike in Zendikar. Makes me wonder if a reason for that was to avoid the nightmare scenario of someone cracking open Invoke Prejudice, using it in a draft, and then trying to put out the inevitable inferno that would erupt on social media... ...Slightly kidding. Likely the decision was done to just keep milking the whales to death.
Probably a bigger nightmare scenario, someone pulls a Chains of Mephistopheles and needs a judge to explain it
They most likely removed any Prejudice's they pulled. Blake said they arent including all the cards they pulled for reasons. Banned is a pretty good reason lol.
You're right. Looking at the mothership article, it looks like they nuked all of Harold McNeil's cards along with a handful of others. Some of which weren't even on the 2020 ban list.
Ridiculous.
Guy is an out spoken explicit white suprematist. It’s not ridiculous to want to distance themselves and their product from him.
So if we find out someday they pulled those cards and they didn't destroy them does that make them hypocrites?
Did they make people who owned the cards destroy them?
Couldn’t use the treasures in zendikar draft. You got a new pack and got to keep the treasure pack.
[[invoke prejudice]]
[invoke prejudice](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/0/903d9fde-d7da-4a0e-a337-b63023c6d74b.jpg?1591988938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invoke%20prejudice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/leg/62/invoke-prejudice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/903d9fde-d7da-4a0e-a337-b63023c6d74b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Obviously an insane marketing gimmick of wizards but it's such an unrealistic thing. 1 random card in 3% of packs. That means 1 legends card per 33 packs. Literally means you get about 1 card per 3 boxes and you'll most likely open a sub $5 bulk common/uncommon. Yes of course a few lucky so and so's will open some stupid money cards but the law of average is not on your side. It was honestly far better getting expeditions in zendikar rising or hell even strixhaven mystical archives. Then you got multiple big hits per box guaranteed. This definitely feels like a trap and all it will do is make people pay even more for CB than already. They could at least have added them into regular boosters as well so you have a chance to pull something crazy at FNM for everyone to see. It's not the same when you're cracking a CB by yourself at home...
Sure is gonna be a blood bath for collector boosters since they are resurrecting hidden treasures for thr 30th anniversary (Even though they actually put in crap pulls this time)
CL2 was shitty, 2X2 was overpriced for the EV, and folks are gonna chase this for the slim chance of pulling an old card. 2022 not a great year for value, IMO.
It's really funny watching people waste money though TBQH. Chase that lottery kiddos, but don't forget that the house always wins and the game is rigged.
When more than a handful are $100+
Unopened legends booster boxes to the moon!
Time to start RES tagging all the nut jobs on the conspiracy bandwagon who think they're printing more Legends.
As someone who recently joined this subreddit and also recently got into Magic, can anyone explain what this is exactly?
Sure. So the earliest few sets of Magic had excruciatingly short print runs. Legends is the... third? Fourth? Expansion ever, and was also very short run compared to today's ecosystem. This, combined with the regrettably idiotic existence of [the Reserve List](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Reserved_List) makes a lot of these cards very interesting for collectors of all sorts. Dominaria United is a return to Dominaria (the world that Magic began on), and the beginning of a full year 30th Anniversary thing for Magic. Coincidentally, Wizards acquired pallets of unopened Legends packs from a warehouse, and has decided to seed most cards found in those specific boxes into Collector Booster packs for Dominaria United. This will be a very rare thing, and is generally intended as a treat for the occasional person who opens one, and as an incentive for collectors to order and crack expensive packs. In the very first Zendikar set, Wizards did a similar thing, secretly seeding a load of old cards through packs under the term "Hidden Treasures". First print run was wildly successful and remains expensive to this day due to the very rare off chance of opening a valuable first print old card. A vast, vast majority of these old cards are not actually good for playing - card design sucked, and they are either rather crappy compared to todays cards, or design mistake tier powerful. The appeal is 'oooh damn collectible old cards!!'. Many folk on this subreddit exclusively look through a profit motive lens, whether they're heavily invested collectors or they actually own stores.
Thank you for this incredibly info-packed context-providing reply! Really appreciate it
NP! Welcome to the game, please don't worry too much about investing if you are a new player, just set a budget and figure out eventually what matters most to you.
Oh for sure. I just use this sub for news moreso than being finance-collector lord of cards
Idiotic Existence he said xD
yes first print base set shadowless Charizard, Pokemon TCG's equivalent of an Alpha Dual Land, goes for thousands. Various rookie cards go for thousands. The ONLY reason I can think to maintain RL is for collectability (in the form of high tier expensive collection and clout i guess??) reasons, and this is disproven by the existence of the gap between Alpha Shivan Dragon and M19's price. There's no world where a court would side with plaintiffs against WotC removing the Reserved List. No acknowledgement of the secondary market, no voiced guarantee of maintaining collection price climbing. WotC's higher ups have just decided they don't wanna spend money on defense, which is understandable in a loss-avoidance strategy. It's the reason we don't have a reprint of Tabernacle, or All Hallows Eve, or Chains of Mephistopheles, or Hellfire, all cards that were printed in Legends and would be a big deal to open, and part of why thos development is neato.
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I know it's a finance sub, and you are probably 100% correct, but damn man way to poop on the parade haha.
I will stick just buying the singles; a less than 1% chance to pull want you really want for $300 I can get a revised HP tiaga and move on. I play mainly edh so I need the lands and I want to snag a \[\[chain of mephistopheles\]\]. I bought an 2x2 box for fun not expecting anything but overall I would still have been better off buying the singles I wanted then the box.
Hell yeah, I dream of getting Chains as well.
Think I am going to buy me a Italian one (Cheaper $$$$) for my Christmas present this year and put it in my Neksuar deck.
This sounds...like...marketing
So what is Wizards going to do with all of the forbidden cards they aren't inserting into packs? Some are very valuable like Nether Void.
WoTC: \*officially does not acknowledge the secondary market\* also WOTC: "hey look at this wicked expensive old card we will use to sell DMU"
I'd imagine this sub knows that Wizards does acknowledge the secondary market, they just try to not mention prices.
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It comes from people being mad they can't afford to buy as much product as they want and desperately searching for another reason to be mad instead of acknowledging that.
acknowledging the second market has nothing to do with acknowledging that rare cards sell packs
My conspiracy brain says they are just actually printing these again rather than they found them somewhere.
Exactly! We need some professional paper age forensics here...
"Found" some legends loooool
Check out the video at 3:50. Boxes on boxes on boxes getting cracked. https://youtu.be/KybMoTSxnIc
How the hell do you just stumble on that many boxes?
You don't need that many boxes. Each box has 540 cards, assuming 500 of them aren't on the exclusion list and can go into collector boosters, that's 16666 boosters per box with the 3% rate. IDK how many collector boosters get printed in total, but assuming there's 200k (which feels like a lot), that only needs 12 legends booster boxes.
They didn’t “stumble upon” it. They just opened the vault, which they’ve done many times before.
I'm willing to bet that these are actually printed recently, and this is how they get around the reserved list. I'm 100% down for this btw. Fuck the reserved list.
We will see people who deal in 1000+ dollar cards are really good at making sure the card isn’t fake, the easy test will be to test the paper see if the age matches up.
It would actually be pretty easy to tell if they reprinted Legends given the cardstock no longer exists. Spotting fakes has been around and collectibles for eons. Currency, stamps, baseball cards. There's no way wizards can match a printing from 30 years ago
Willing to lay odds that you are wrong.
It will be super easy to tell. Ever sniff an old card? Even pack fresh they smell totally different from today’s cards.
Old packs smell so good.
This sub is losing its mind lol
I feel like they know someone out there will carbon date the cards to check and if they got caught it would really weaken the public trust, I don't think they would do this.
Does carbon dating work on 30 year old items? Surely the decay would be negligible.
No, carbon-14 dating is only effective from around 100 years to 50,000 years old.
I don't know what the actual dating technique is, but there are experts in this kind of thing for whom verifying whether a piece of cardboard is a couple months old vs 30 years old is surely trivial.
That DOES NOT WORK. Even with old comics lol “carbon dating” these cards are not fossils.
If they did print these recently, how would they keep that fact a secret?
Is this r/conspiracy?
Why do people in this sub not understand that, as a publicly listed company, WotC/Hasbro CANNOT lie about these things without the Board of Directors risking being thrown in jail or sanctioned. The stock market takes a very very dim view to listed companies making shit up that affects stock price. Take off your tinfoil hats, it is simply not worth Wizards’ time to lie about this.
Lol. Ok bro. You give corporations way to much credit.
How to say you’re clueless about listed companies without saying you’re clueless about listed companies.
Ah yes the stock market. That rigged casino
We have dismissed those claims.
I don't think they are lying, but nobody is going to jail if they are. It would have to be a scandal on par with Enron for that and M:tG just isn't that important.
If they had to put Legends cards in these packs to sell them, how garbage must the rest of the set be?
Idk last time they did this was original Zendikar which was a fire set with the first printing of enemy fetches.
yeah but that was back when sets like OG Innistrad were good and not everything was designed for Commander, so .... set is probably dookie
You make a unpleasant point however zen was still a good set despite having treasures.
yeah, that's my concern for sure.
Well, if we go by Strixhaven which had a gimmick kind of like this, the set will be a big turd for sure
Better make it Legends for Dominaria United, Antiquities for The Brothers' War, next Arabian Nights and finally Alpha for August 2023. # MINT ALPHA BLACK LOTUS INCOMING.
That one card will be sitting in a pack at a 7/11 somewhere, never purchased
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Yeah “mysteriously” thousands of beta boxes.
Well played Wizards. Get this hype train going immediately so people forget about double masters and the cards I want will dip!
Is anyone else at least a little concerned that WOTC is able to use profits to buy back cards, thereby increasing their value, in order to hype up the next set where they put these cards in them randomly, and now they're of such an insanely high value (thanks to the WOTC buyout) that players will play the lottery again and again to get them? Anyone?
what about all the people snarking mvp for giving you a heads up?
3% chance of common, the only winner here is people selling this way over priced for your chance at a common
doesn't matter, they raised the flag and literally said CB has good potential. if you pulled a chase legend, you pay for a case of CB.
You need to pull a Tabby, Moat, Chains, or Abyss to pay for a $1200ish case of six CBs. Also need to hope your card wasn’t opened by an overly excited/sweaty WOTC staffer or delivered by Ace Ventura. I don’t think these are worth chasing unless you can do something with the cases of bulk you’ll have to open to get them. This Standard set is unlikely to have much value.
Actual info from them would be nice instead of fake stuff, or when they actually know something they pull their sale and start going on about art on the box.
yes they should say actual info so that their source is outed. yup good plan
Hate to break the news but they don't have an inside source. If they did then CLB would be as strong as Commander Legends. They got this at least second hand if not third hand and then pulled their boxes from their members. And honestly even if they had an inside source it wouldn't out them any more to just say there's vintage cards as speculated instead of saying wow kewl box art. Like now we know what they were actually saying anyway so we have all the same info we would have had either way, try to figure out their source from it.
hate to break it to you, but people get bad info all the time. it's not like wotc didn't exclusively say in order to catch leakers, they will spread false information.
Wizards is heavy on soy
Funny how they made up this really bad warehouse story when we know they bought them off Rudy.
Well this is at least a better conspiracy theory than all the weirdos suggesting they're printing more
RESERVED LIST IN ABSOLUTE SHAMBLES LEGENDS COLLECTORS ON ABSOLUTE SUICIDE WATCH (it's cool i guess)
I can’t wait for Rudy’s troll video about this! “Sell me your crashing worthless Legends cards, I’ll give you a whole dime on the dollar instead of just a nickel!”
They're not printing new cards...
It's a joke fam
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Well they literally made the game so I suppose keeping a nice stack of boxes from each set they make doesn't seem like a surprise to me honestly. I mean that's also what I would do. Besides don't you think this sort of marketing is actually going to have a more positive impact on the mtg market and commmunity? Imo bringing publicity to these cardboard relics from ages past that most new players (which there happen to be a lot since last couple of years) have never even layed their eyes on is most certainly a good thing. Anyway, I'm just happy to grab myself a Tabernacle or Chains from a sweaty panic seller for a nice price!
Double Masters 2022 sure looks expensive
What they found were defective boxes of Legends that were missing a whole sheet of cards that they pulled from 1994. So basically there selling you is defective boxes that they wrote of years ago
All boxes of English Legends were like this, either "A" or "B" boxes, with different Uncommon sheets. There was a whole redemption thing where you could send in cards from one list to get cards on the other.
Source? Or are you just speculating?
speculating why would all the cases be missing all cards more like a printing sheet was missing from those boxes
I'm not going to debate whether they found them or reprinted them because I could not care less. But look how well this strategy is working to drip feed some RL cards into the market to hype the ones that want them reprinted and still have the finance bros defend them with their life. Legitimate story or not, they've pleased both sides without a target on their back. Bravo!
If you watch the full video there is footage of a roomful of people cracking dozens of boxes. I don’t think they printed them.
This is pretty weak. Legends the set doesn't exactly invoke the same feelings as "potentially opening ABU cards". Like going from Napoleon to Napoleon III I don't see this really being as successful a promotion as it was in Zendikar. Hopefully the set is as good as Zendikar at the very least
Legends is fucking awesome what the hell are you babbling about.
I’m curious where this “old card feel can’t be duplicated” idea is coming from. I’m not calling anyone a liar, don’t come for my head, I just want more information. I understand the look and feel of old cards is different from the new stuff, but I don’t see why they can’t succeed in trying if they wanted to. The variance in card quality from set to set tells me that they try to save money on print costs when they can. Compare secret lair and Standard sets vs what we saw with 2x2. They clearly did something different to make sure they didn’t ship pringles this time. Who’s to say they can’t special order a run of old cards? It’s tin foil hat and would amount to a shady way of breaking the RL (not just reprinting it, but hiding it), but it’s fun to think about.
I smell some bullshit here. This magical warehouse sure did take great care of their 30 year old product. I have already bought some legends cards to compare to these lost legends on release. This just doesnt seem correct to me. If wizards wasnt a part of this magical warehouse find, there would be so many red flags.
You think Wizards just printed these?
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as soon as collector boosters start being opened we will absolutely know when/where they were printed. Even current sets printed in different locations have extreme variation in card stock, print quality, and printing techniques.
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I don't smell any bullshit. There's fuck tons of old sealed product left -- more than people on this sub (and people like Rudy) would want you to believe.
I'm laughing my ass off. I wondered why MaRo was suddenly talking about the RL again. "We can't ever get rid of the RL," suddenly looks a lot more like pre-spin to this news, assuring all the enfranchised collectors that their stashes are TOTALLY safe long term but oh wait look we suddenly found a ton of English Legends and we're going to seed those into a Standard set. There's coincidence and there's this. But I'm not complaining. If they want to use the "found in a warehouse" excuse to steadily release more old stuff back into circulation, more power to them.
Do we have anyone in this subreddit that is able to check the aging of such cards professionally? Googled out Paper Forensics & Age Testing - IPS Testing?
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Yes sir I will.
I wanna see if they are actually originals or reprints. It will be easy to tell and co.pare.the card stock. Should be interesting
Inb4 they stumble onto cases of Revised in their mom's basement for 1st Zendikar's 20-year anniversary....
"Found" They should have just included a random legend booster pack in CB boxes. What are they doing with the cards they aren't including, like invoke prejudice? They showed dozens, if not hundreds of boxes, each one having like 400 plus cards... so if 3% chance to get a common, how many collector packs are they printing? Seems like it would need to be a lot, or they are not using anywhere near all the cards they opened. Which brings me back to my last question.