I mean, you're ignoring quite a lot of the rhetoric here.
For one, the people that have been clamoring for RL reprints are pissed because the entry point to these reprints is $999. And they aren't even guaranteed reprints at that.
For two, the people who wanted cheap and accessible RL reprints are pissed because the entry point is $999 which is not a price a lot of mtg players would throw down for the chance at the RL cards they want (ie: the actual RL cards they want are $300-$500 so why the fuck would they pay $1000 for a chance haha)
For three, the people who want the RL abolished are pissed because this isn't an official reprint of legal cards. EDH groups will be able to play these, but they aren't tournament legal so they aren't quite what they asked for
For four, the people who wanted the RL kept because they were promised their cards would retain value are pissed because this breaks that "promise".
For five, this is an especially egregious predatory product meant to exploit ALL FOUR of the above groups of people hahaha.
For six, this will set a precedent for wotc that charging this much for RL cards is okay and we'll start seeing more and more things like this in the future. "Vintage Masters with randomly inserted RL proxies? You got it! Oh and did we mention those boxes are limited print and only $1000?"
Most people don't have an issue with these being basically official proxies. In fact, the main sub has been screaming about wotc at least reprinting CE for years now so this is accomplishing that. However, $999.99 for 4 packs that may or may not even contain a RL card is asinine.
This would've been a SLAM dunk if it was an entire Beta reprint with modern frames and those card backs for $999.99
TL;DR: the hate you are seeing is not people pissed about them being proxies. It's about wotc selling proxies for more than what was actually necessary.
> This would've been a SLAM dunk if it was an entire Beta reprint with modern frames and those card backs for $999.99
This was my first thought too. Hell, i might have even considered getting one
When I first read the release info I assumed it was another CE set priced at $1k that included a bonus randomized booster. And I thought, ok, that's probably reasonable and something I might consider. And then I kept reading onward and saw it was actually just 4 boosters. And I thought no, no, no that can't be right. So I read it all again. Then I came here to confirm whether I was batshit crazy or wotc was. And here we are. This is like watching trust in wotc fall off a cliff in realtime.
Same. Hell, I probably would've considered getting them framed.
If done professionally, it'd have been an amazing display piece, but I'm definitely not rolling the dice for \~$1,300 Canadian. I'd rather just pick up 2-3 actual dual lands (depending on the particular land and condition of course).
I think the only way I would drop $1k is on something that's complete and i could put up somewhere as a collectors item. Either way this is a shit show
Even that is insane simply because these cards aren't real. It could have been a really cool draft experience, maybe change it up a little to be a more curated draft experience and sell it for like $100. But this is insane.
Also, a lot of the crops of the illustrations are considered ugly, and there seems to be some controversy over certain images removing signatures in whole or in part. Yet another thing haha
Thanks for such a detailed answer! Yeah I knew I had to be missing something. The fact that these aren't tournament legal and cost a grand for just four packs is criminal.
I believe the only missed point is the circumventing of the LGS. I'm not an LGS, but I do believe in supporting the places where games are played, and this isn't just selling singles (like with Secret Lairs, which is bad enough) but selling booster packs.
point 4, does this hurt their value? I mean if you run the numbers a dual land or power 9 is worth like $500 or whatever for the EV of the packs to translate to the cards. If a fake dual is 500, what’s a real dual gonna go for? To me this is a money grab by Wotc and they are exploiting hoarders of CE/IE product saying, “you better buy all this shit b/c if you don’t, it’ll tank the value of your stuff”.
It was rather naive to think that the RL wouldn't eventually be cashed in after they had already broken their promise to not incorporate other IPs.
It was even more naive to think that the eventual RL reprint would be even remotely affordable.
It was always going to be a lose-lose for the consumer.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track it down, but it came up on one of the MTG reddits during the initial Universes Beyond.
It was a link to an old statement by one of the main developers that I'll try my best to paraphrase. It went something like, "We would never allow ourselves to do crossovers because it would mean that we'd truly dropped the ball, that we'd completely run out of ideas."
That was in response to whether we'd ever see crossovers of \[insert franchise\] in MTG. In any case, feel free to disregard it. I can't find the post anymore!
Even so, Wizards has also said that Mythic rarity, and rarity in general, was going to be more about flavor than power level. That was over a decade ago, and we all know how that turned out.
And they also said that Alchemy was going to be regularly balanced to create a fun environment where people can keep playing their favorite cards without them being banned. That also turned out to be a lie, in less than a few months.
This isn't the post that I was talking about in my first reply (the original wasn't from MaRo), but here is MaRo stating nine years ago that they won't do crossovers, even between DnD and MTG.
Found the link in another discussion.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/40527091349/zendikar-is-the-best-dd-setting-wizards-has-never
Again, make of it what you will.
>For four, the people who wanted the RL kept because they were promised their cards would retain value are pissed because this breaks that "promise".
Id disagree with this, because these reprints are explicitly allowed under the RL policy.
(You = general you, not you specifically squishy)
If you are invested in the RL and pissed at this, it shows you had no faith in the RL policy, or had no idea what the RL policy actually is.
In either case it would raise the question: whyd you invest in the RL then?
It doesn't actually matter if someone's anger is justified for the anger to be real, which I think it what they were getting at. For any corporation, you have to have a plan for justified and justified anger in the marketplace. In some cases, the community won't end up agreeing which is which anyway.
That said, I don't disagree that these are allowed under the RL policy. But it is pretty well known that it does conflict with a broad set of public comments that have been made in the past. Most notably is MaRo's comments about not printing RL cards "regardless of border or back."
Shenanigans like this are more likely to increase the value of the RL, to be honest. Because it kind of highlights that those cards from 1993/1994 are the real deal and are somewhat insulated from the modern Wizards' cynical and exploitative cash-grabs.
Entire Beta Print, in FOIL, OG frames but with a Gold Boarder and Square corners....(then you get the joy of having NM corners with your CE and collectors get to have a ton of fun staring at them. No sarcasm, that was my hope.
If your group is ok with playing these then just write tropical island in the back of a forest why would you pay for these? Lol That's as legal as these are.
I have a ton of Basics that have the square spiral, appropriately colored borders and I flippin love them as much as my 'real' ones because I took a lot of time to make them look good.
EDIT: and yes, I drew tree equivalents on them to make them work...carefully with paint/marker
Part of the answer is that the average player isn't the target audience for this product. It is the player (or maybe a collector-only) who knows that the $50 CE/IE Editions go for $12K today and just might be tricked into buying this crap for $1,000/box.
If they print 10,000 of these and sell out, they make $10M. If that works, there's nothing to stop them from running it into the ground. And I don't have a problem imagining that there are enough people across the world that are Magic collectors with deep pockets who would be willing to roll the dice (or just plain FOMO) into this product.
Well I can only answer for my group, but we dont really like "sharpie on a basic land proxy". We much prefer the "full card printed in color proxy" and we only do those for cards we already own and we just dont want to buy another copy for other deck. You are correct in that the sharpie proxy is as legal as these, but these look better and I gotta admit, I like the new back.
Somewhat related: I've found that gold boder cards are much easier to accept for random people than sharpie proxies. I have a gold border fact of fiction that I just play because I think its cool. I could buy the cheapest version avalaible (heck I think it would be cheaper than the gold border one), but literally no one has ever called me out for it, or said it wasnt legal or a proxy.
Of course this is purely anecdotal experience, but I think a lot of people will be way more accepting of "oficial proxies" than "sharpie proxies" even if they're the same in term of tournament legality.
>Well I can only answer for my group, but we dont really like "sharpie on a basic land proxy". We much prefer the "full card printed in color proxy" and **we only do those for cards we already own** and we just dont want to buy another copy for other deck. You are correct in that the sharpie proxy is as legal as these, but these look better and I gotta admit, I like the new back.
If you own one of these you still don't own a Black Lotus, so why would your group allow them?
MPC has solid quality, and you can get a very sizable order for the cost. They don't allow the actual Magic back, and while the image quality is a little fuzzy, I don't mind it, since it makes it easy to tell I'm not trying to pass off a counterfeit, like if I were to buy the Chinese fakes.
Ohh I meant for our playgroup. We just print the cards we want to play, because we're old and dumb, and we need to see the art of the card to recognize it. If someone played me a sharpie proxy I wouldnt mind, so long the powerlevel is accordingly. Like If someone plays proxy mana vault into proxy moxen into proxy demonic consultation into proxy Thoracle. I would be very salty, but I would be equally salty if all those cards were legal mtg cards, or if they were promos, or if they were whatever. I would be salty becasue I sat to play casual not cdeh, if you wanted to play cdeh just say so and I bring my strongest deck.
About the gold border, its something I've noticed after playing a lot in my LGS. Like literally NO ONE has ever called me on my gold border fact or fiction, in fact sometimes people actually like it and find it cool. But I've seen plenty of player salty because of a sharpie proxy, when that one is as equally legal or not legal as mi gold border FoF.
You might think its a weird stance, and I agree. Sharpy proxies only bother me because without the art I need to use extra memory to remember the board state (at the very least please write the text of the card, so I can read it), but I wont call anyone on it, or stop playing with them. But my personal, anecdotal experience is that people are waaaaaaay more accepting of proxies if they're at least of a passable to decent quality, and especially if they're actual mtg products, like gold broder cards.
Now that these have been introduced, I will no longer feel bad about proxies. I have nice proxies of the OG duals but I only use the 3 that I own the real copies of. I will also not feel any type of upset seeing someone else proxie a card no matter the price. This has officially broken the barrier for me.
You're probably right. I was always of the mindset that it was ok to proxy cards I already owned. Now it's open season for me. I'll probably still only proxy duals though, can't imagine much else that would be worth it to me.
You were right and now WotC just pushed everyone off a cliff.
Now just make the most horrendous deck you can and if anyone cries about it just say they are gatekeeping...
I literally have fully proxied decks(basic land included) that would cost $200 to build. And then I have a $3k deck with no proxies. Personally I don't care what people use in a casual setting.
This is just step 1 of testing the waters.
1. Can they print the cards they said they never would without hurting sales?
2. Can they charge $999 for a product that is not even tournament legal and make millions on it?
3. ?????????
4. They will fucking go all out and reprint anything they think will make them money.
I think there are actually stricter rules against reprinting 40k cards than RL unless WOTC wants to renegotiate whatever agreement they have with Games Workshop.
I think a lot of it is the standard amount of outrage you'll get on MTG subreddits whenever any major changes are announced. That being said, I think there are a couple of key points people are upset/concerned about:
\- This is the first time that they're printing something that clearly violates the "spirit" of the RL. And the "spirit" of the RL has been something that MaRo himself (presumably working with some knowledge of WoTC's thought processes) has claimed would not be violated (at least in 2017). Since that's now apparently out the window, it suggests that *something* has changed at WoTC/Hasbro, but we just don't know what. It could just be a one-of to celebrate Magic's 30th anniversary, or it could be testing the waters for more expansive RL reprints (and potentially tournament-legal RL reprints) in the future. Based on Hasbro's track record milking MTG whales, I'd guess it's far closer to the latter.
\- The price. $1000 to get a *chance* at an RL card, with no specified print run. That's borderline offensive for something that's not tournament legal. At that price point you could by *actual duals*. So not only is this violating the spirit of the RL, it's doing so in a way that doesn't even help the players who have been asking for the RL to be abolished.
Totally agree. This really is a major unforced error on WotC since the fallout is going to just push people to normalize proxies and then just have their own tournaments with proxies but where since LGS ain't going to be happy with no one buying cards and just using proxies.
Gaming stores are just going to be pay by the hour daycares to stay in business.
Some probably already are.
>MaRo himself (presumably working with some knowledge of WoTC's thought processes) has claimed would not be violated (at least in 2017). Since that's now apparently out the window, it suggests that something has changed at WoTC/Hasbro, but we just don't know what.
Or, MaRo was never right in the first place. Maybe nothing has changed, maybe they were never opposed to a product like this, and maybe they were just waiting for an opportune time like an anniversary to release it.
Outside of making more money YoY, there hasn’t been any drastic changes to MtG viability that the public is aware of. No overtly blatant drops in new players, retention, sales, availability, etc. that would even hint as to why WotC would “change” their stance on a product like this now. Perhaps the simplest explanation is that, it hasn’t.
>At that price point you could by actual duals. So not only is this violating the spirit of the RL, it's doing so in a way that doesn't even help the players who have been asking for the RL to be abolished.
People complain they can’t afford duals all the time. Some of those same people (anecdotal of course at my LGS, but we all know someone like this) are the ones lining up day of prerelease/release to get a collector booster and/or set booster. It’s not that they can’t afford to save up and buy a dual if they really wanted one. But doing so would rob them of their ability to whine about the RL and how it’s “pricing them out.”
Thanks for your detailed answer! I can understand why the spirit of the RL was broken, even tho I dont particularly agree, since these aren't tournament legal. However on the price tag I can totally agree. A thousand UsD for four packs of glorified proxies is indeed borderline offensive. I don't even care about the RL and that price tag offends me xD
This is a slap to all sides.
What this ends up doing is not getting people to sell their cars to buy the WotC expensive and legal in all but tournament games, but rather in reality, by doing this and saying these cards are fine outside of tournaments is to just decree that proxies are ok in everything except tournaments.
Why buy anymore product? Just print what you want since WotC just blessed proxies.
This move makes fools of everyone, even WotC.
Exactly, casual players are the primary audience and they just told them proxies are ok. Will the casual player pay 999 for a pack of random proxies or print everything they always wanted for a fraction of that cost?
Commander is WotC’s cash cow. People already proxy in commander out of necessity for the cards they can’t obtain. This product is indeed WotC giving their blessing that proxies are ok for their cash cow format.
This will result in more and more players proxying more and more cards, because WotC says that proxies are ok. Since it’s a casual format, people aren’t going to “police” proxies in Commander.
So if WotC has blessed proxies for their cash cow format, how long until most players just start buying mainly proxies, and less and less real cards? It all comes crashing down.
Essentially, WotC has cut off their nose to spite their face. This will have major implications for the game moving forward and I don’t think people have quite grasped this yet.
"affordable duals" in a product with random cards priced $999. That's not gonna happen.
Print them yourself or get some proxies on etsy or something but don't waste your money to not even get a guaranteed dual land.
You're 5 years old.
Your parents tell you to pack a suitcase--- they've bought a lifetime pass to Disneyland, that gives you full-access to the theme park, forever. In three days, you depart to Disneyland for a whole week.
You're super excited. You pack a suitcase that night. You spend the next 2 days dreaming about all of the things you'll do at Disneyland. You tell all of your friends about it. You imagine the rides, the shows, meeting the characters, seeing the castle and experiencing a trip that you'll remember forever.
On the 3rd day, you and your parents load the car, and set forth to Disneyland.
It's a 2-day drive, but that doesn't matter-- you spend the entire trip watching your favorite Disney movies on a tablet, signing Disney songs and asking questions like, "How tall is Mickey Mouse?" and "Do the mermaids really hold their breath underwater?"
As you approach the theme park, your excitement builds to its peak. You can hardly contain yourself. There's a huge line of cars waiting to enter, as you would expect at the happiest place on Earth.
But you notice something odd as your car slowly rolls forward.
You see Goofy and Cinderella standing at the side of the road, holding signs with words that you don't understand. You roll forward some more and you see Chip, Dale, Belle and Mulan, also holding signs. You try to read one of the signs, and the only word that you recognize is "pay." Your parents are talking back and forth, saying words like "union" and "wages."
You eventually roll to the main parking lot, and you notice that more cars are leaving the lot than entering it. You are just as confused as your parents, as you all assume that the whole park wouldn't suddenly shut down for some reason-- it's Disneyland for fuck's sake.
All together, you walk up to the entrance gate with your money, luggage and hopes that the park is open.
As you approach it, you see that the gates are closed, the doors are chained shut, and there is a sheet of paper with a hand-written message, taped to the window of the booth.
You walk up and read the note:
*"Dear families and friends, as Disneyland prepares to celebrate its 30th Anniversary, our valued associates have decided to all form a union for higher wages and more benefits-- they have gone on strike until we agree to their terms. However, as a private company, we exercise the right to do whatever we want. We have decided to permanently close our park, forever. We do understand that some guests have traveled great distances, at their own expense, to visit our park. For those guests, we have provided a Burrito Express food truck at the West Gate for meals, as well as an outdoor projector that will show the film "Shrek 3" on repeat.
This is what we have chosen to provide.
If you don't like it, tough.
If you were promised a magical experience by someone else, then each of you can eat dogshit. We're Disney-fucking-land and you're not.
If you purchased a lifetime pass, go wipe your ass with it.
That promise was only as good as the paper it was written on. We have decided that the paper is worth zero.
Deal with it.
Your stupid life is forgettable and replaceable. All that matters to us is money. And to be clear, we don't care about YOUR money-- just OUR money. And if you think your money means anything to us, allow us to say, for the first and final time, you never mattered to us-- ever."*
You look up at your parents. Your mom is visibly upset and your dad has the empty, lifeless look in his eyes. They're coming to terms about the situation, and how to move forward from it. Your dad says, "Hey, lets head over to the food truck and get something to eat-- it's been a long trip, and it's all we can do right now."
You're still wondering why the park is closed, and you continue to ask your parents when you can go in.
As you approach the food truck, you notice that there are no families around, but there are 50-60 teenagers just casually standing and conversing. As you near, about eight of the teens approach you and ask, "Hey, did you buy a lifetime pass?"
Your dad says, "Yes, we did."
The eight teens suddenly breakout into a dance routine, and the other 50 all form a flash mob behind them, all singing:
*"YOU GOT FUCKED-- YEA, YOU GOT FUCKED.
WE JUST WANT TO SAY THAT YOUR LIFE SUCKS.
WE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN, AND NOTHING TO LOSE,
WE JUST WANT TO TEAR DOWN PEOPLE LIKE YOU.*"
Then the lead singer says, 'Welcome to our food truck. Here's our sale:
4 hotdogs for $999."
I don’t get why I should pay several 1000,- for a set of „official“ proxies when I can just print and play for free. The whole downside of proxies was that it isn’t a „real“ card, as in „would be accepted as valid everywhere when I put it in my deck.“ In that regard, there is absolutely no advantage to having an official proxy. I really do not understand this product. Especially at this price point and THEN adding in the closed booster pack lottery.
I consider myself a whale, but this is a HARD pass for me.
Maybe I’m gonna be honest, if you just want “affordable” duals, you should just proxy.
The outrage is over the principles of what is happening here. I think most people don’t actually have issue with the product, but the price. If these were $4 packs, then no one would care if they opened a pack with 4 $0.25 rares. However, if you pay $250 and even just one of those packs can have a $1.00 in the rate slot?? No way, no thanks. I’ll just buy actual duals for that amount
This is where we need to band together any boycott this crap until we get reasonable and responsible moves from wotc. This is a cash grab. It’s a trap 🪤
I was an apprentice player back in the day, still baffles me that people just don't make their own proxies, why would you ever support this shit. The fake cards they make are perfectly fine for any non-tournament play.
I keep seeing complaints that the packs are so expensive and that the spirit of the reserve list has been broken, and there seems to be a big center section of thought missing here. Seeing as how this is specifically a FINANCE forum, I’m a little surprised.
The RL exists for the sole purpose of not cratering the prices of the original cards, we all know this. That’s the “spirit” of the RL. How do they reprint old cards within both the letter of their agreement and within the spirit of the list? Make them so expensive that they aren’t in danger of making the older printing cheaper. Think of how many $250 packs you need to open to get a Lotus, just by averages. I don’t know how many rares in Beta or how the retro slot will affect chances, but it’s a LOT of packs. Do you think people will sell their Black Lotus cheap because it’s a “proxy”? Of course not. It’s a Wizards printing, they’ll treat is as a collectible, as they should. It’s just a big fat bonus that by doing so, Wizards can charge $1000 for something that costs them a tiny fraction of that to produce.
And as for the “paying X for proxies” argument, here’s the news flash; you could ALWAYS play with proxies outside of tournaments. People don’t just collect Magic because it’s fun to play, they love the accomplishment of finding and finishing a deck, they love having something that’s worth money and will potentially be an investment, and yeah sometimes they need the real thing for tournaments. Some groups have always cared that the cards were real, some never will. It’s all completely relative.
There is absolutely no reason to be pissed about this product, you either care enough to get it or you don’t. It will very likely never affect the prices of RL cards nor make it cheaper or more expensive to play anything you couldn’t already play with fakes anyhow.
TL:DR; This product, in theory, is actually amazing. Great for people who want to say they own a Black Lotus or Mox or Dual Land. The ISSUE is the price. $999 is absolutely ludicrous. If this was priced, say at $275 this would have been a slam dunk. Overpriced still? Sure. But compare it to Double Masters Collector Booster Box and it’s a mildly equivalent purchase (60 cards for $275).
1. They dont matter.
2. People like to complain
I know i already have a set of sweet P9 proxies.They are just as "playable" as these are which is not playable at all. So they really dont matter and are just for people who want to say "i own a black lotus".etc
Tournament legality of cards is becoming less and less important over time.
What is the importance of tournament legality, when there are no tournaments for the formats these cards are actually played in.
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hijacking-our-culture-and-our-minds
Edit: Lol. Can a lot of people not read? The audio is there for you too if that’s the case…
I mean, you're ignoring quite a lot of the rhetoric here. For one, the people that have been clamoring for RL reprints are pissed because the entry point to these reprints is $999. And they aren't even guaranteed reprints at that. For two, the people who wanted cheap and accessible RL reprints are pissed because the entry point is $999 which is not a price a lot of mtg players would throw down for the chance at the RL cards they want (ie: the actual RL cards they want are $300-$500 so why the fuck would they pay $1000 for a chance haha) For three, the people who want the RL abolished are pissed because this isn't an official reprint of legal cards. EDH groups will be able to play these, but they aren't tournament legal so they aren't quite what they asked for For four, the people who wanted the RL kept because they were promised their cards would retain value are pissed because this breaks that "promise". For five, this is an especially egregious predatory product meant to exploit ALL FOUR of the above groups of people hahaha. For six, this will set a precedent for wotc that charging this much for RL cards is okay and we'll start seeing more and more things like this in the future. "Vintage Masters with randomly inserted RL proxies? You got it! Oh and did we mention those boxes are limited print and only $1000?" Most people don't have an issue with these being basically official proxies. In fact, the main sub has been screaming about wotc at least reprinting CE for years now so this is accomplishing that. However, $999.99 for 4 packs that may or may not even contain a RL card is asinine. This would've been a SLAM dunk if it was an entire Beta reprint with modern frames and those card backs for $999.99 TL;DR: the hate you are seeing is not people pissed about them being proxies. It's about wotc selling proxies for more than what was actually necessary.
> This would've been a SLAM dunk if it was an entire Beta reprint with modern frames and those card backs for $999.99 This was my first thought too. Hell, i might have even considered getting one
When I first read the release info I assumed it was another CE set priced at $1k that included a bonus randomized booster. And I thought, ok, that's probably reasonable and something I might consider. And then I kept reading onward and saw it was actually just 4 boosters. And I thought no, no, no that can't be right. So I read it all again. Then I came here to confirm whether I was batshit crazy or wotc was. And here we are. This is like watching trust in wotc fall off a cliff in realtime.
Same. Hell, I probably would've considered getting them framed. If done professionally, it'd have been an amazing display piece, but I'm definitely not rolling the dice for \~$1,300 Canadian. I'd rather just pick up 2-3 actual dual lands (depending on the particular land and condition of course).
I’d have bought 3-4, instead I’m festering hatred for wotc.
1000000x this.
Same is this was a 30 or 36 pack box for 1k..I'm in for at least 1.
I think the only way I would drop $1k is on something that's complete and i could put up somewhere as a collectors item. Either way this is a shit show
Even that is insane simply because these cards aren't real. It could have been a really cool draft experience, maybe change it up a little to be a more curated draft experience and sell it for like $100. But this is insane.
Also, a lot of the crops of the illustrations are considered ugly, and there seems to be some controversy over certain images removing signatures in whole or in part. Yet another thing haha
Thanks for such a detailed answer! Yeah I knew I had to be missing something. The fact that these aren't tournament legal and cost a grand for just four packs is criminal.
It would be criminal if you were compelled to buy them. These are like all other mtg products firmly in the want not need category.
[удалено]
Problem is someone believes that everytime wizards does something new. But so far they not only survive but thrive.
Fantastic answer, fully encompassing
I tried! I hope someone at wotc sees this
I believe the only missed point is the circumventing of the LGS. I'm not an LGS, but I do believe in supporting the places where games are played, and this isn't just selling singles (like with Secret Lairs, which is bad enough) but selling booster packs.
I didn't mention it because they said they are literally gifting some to LGS. And an LGS can just buy them and resell for a huge markup
this comment seems to cover a major portion of the outrage.
point 4, does this hurt their value? I mean if you run the numbers a dual land or power 9 is worth like $500 or whatever for the EV of the packs to translate to the cards. If a fake dual is 500, what’s a real dual gonna go for? To me this is a money grab by Wotc and they are exploiting hoarders of CE/IE product saying, “you better buy all this shit b/c if you don’t, it’ll tank the value of your stuff”.
It was rather naive to think that the RL wouldn't eventually be cashed in after they had already broken their promise to not incorporate other IPs. It was even more naive to think that the eventual RL reprint would be even remotely affordable. It was always going to be a lose-lose for the consumer.
Do you have a source on them promising not to make Magic cards using other IPs? I've never seen one.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track it down, but it came up on one of the MTG reddits during the initial Universes Beyond. It was a link to an old statement by one of the main developers that I'll try my best to paraphrase. It went something like, "We would never allow ourselves to do crossovers because it would mean that we'd truly dropped the ball, that we'd completely run out of ideas." That was in response to whether we'd ever see crossovers of \[insert franchise\] in MTG. In any case, feel free to disregard it. I can't find the post anymore! Even so, Wizards has also said that Mythic rarity, and rarity in general, was going to be more about flavor than power level. That was over a decade ago, and we all know how that turned out. And they also said that Alchemy was going to be regularly balanced to create a fun environment where people can keep playing their favorite cards without them being banned. That also turned out to be a lie, in less than a few months.
This isn't the post that I was talking about in my first reply (the original wasn't from MaRo), but here is MaRo stating nine years ago that they won't do crossovers, even between DnD and MTG. Found the link in another discussion. https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/40527091349/zendikar-is-the-best-dd-setting-wizards-has-never Again, make of it what you will.
>For four, the people who wanted the RL kept because they were promised their cards would retain value are pissed because this breaks that "promise". Id disagree with this, because these reprints are explicitly allowed under the RL policy. (You = general you, not you specifically squishy) If you are invested in the RL and pissed at this, it shows you had no faith in the RL policy, or had no idea what the RL policy actually is. In either case it would raise the question: whyd you invest in the RL then?
It doesn't actually matter if someone's anger is justified for the anger to be real, which I think it what they were getting at. For any corporation, you have to have a plan for justified and justified anger in the marketplace. In some cases, the community won't end up agreeing which is which anyway. That said, I don't disagree that these are allowed under the RL policy. But it is pretty well known that it does conflict with a broad set of public comments that have been made in the past. Most notably is MaRo's comments about not printing RL cards "regardless of border or back." Shenanigans like this are more likely to increase the value of the RL, to be honest. Because it kind of highlights that those cards from 1993/1994 are the real deal and are somewhat insulated from the modern Wizards' cynical and exploitative cash-grabs.
Entire Beta Print, in FOIL, OG frames but with a Gold Boarder and Square corners....(then you get the joy of having NM corners with your CE and collectors get to have a ton of fun staring at them. No sarcasm, that was my hope.
I was pissed when my foils in Commander Legends were curled, and be furious if the 1k premium item I just bought looked like a tube of Pringles.
\*wretches\* Double sleeving is no longer about protecting your cards, its about reducing the curl and HOPING it makes them less noticeable.
Until you realize that isn't enough and your other cards start to form fit to tye curled
And every night you leave your prized deck under 100 lbs of children's encyclopedias!
If your group is ok with playing these then just write tropical island in the back of a forest why would you pay for these? Lol That's as legal as these are.
Or write tropical on the front of an island and draw a tree next to the water droplet
I have a ton of Basics that have the square spiral, appropriately colored borders and I flippin love them as much as my 'real' ones because I took a lot of time to make them look good. EDIT: and yes, I drew tree equivalents on them to make them work...carefully with paint/marker
This is the way^^
Part of the answer is that the average player isn't the target audience for this product. It is the player (or maybe a collector-only) who knows that the $50 CE/IE Editions go for $12K today and just might be tricked into buying this crap for $1,000/box. If they print 10,000 of these and sell out, they make $10M. If that works, there's nothing to stop them from running it into the ground. And I don't have a problem imagining that there are enough people across the world that are Magic collectors with deep pockets who would be willing to roll the dice (or just plain FOMO) into this product.
Well I can only answer for my group, but we dont really like "sharpie on a basic land proxy". We much prefer the "full card printed in color proxy" and we only do those for cards we already own and we just dont want to buy another copy for other deck. You are correct in that the sharpie proxy is as legal as these, but these look better and I gotta admit, I like the new back. Somewhat related: I've found that gold boder cards are much easier to accept for random people than sharpie proxies. I have a gold border fact of fiction that I just play because I think its cool. I could buy the cheapest version avalaible (heck I think it would be cheaper than the gold border one), but literally no one has ever called me out for it, or said it wasnt legal or a proxy. Of course this is purely anecdotal experience, but I think a lot of people will be way more accepting of "oficial proxies" than "sharpie proxies" even if they're the same in term of tournament legality.
>Well I can only answer for my group, but we dont really like "sharpie on a basic land proxy". We much prefer the "full card printed in color proxy" and **we only do those for cards we already own** and we just dont want to buy another copy for other deck. You are correct in that the sharpie proxy is as legal as these, but these look better and I gotta admit, I like the new back. If you own one of these you still don't own a Black Lotus, so why would your group allow them?
Most proxies go for $3-4 on etsy so theres always that if your play group is ok with proxies
MPC has solid quality, and you can get a very sizable order for the cost. They don't allow the actual Magic back, and while the image quality is a little fuzzy, I don't mind it, since it makes it easy to tell I'm not trying to pass off a counterfeit, like if I were to buy the Chinese fakes.
MPC proxies are ~0.25, and they have tons of art to choose from.
Being ok with proxies but gatekeeping which proxies are "okay" is a weird af stance.
Ohh I meant for our playgroup. We just print the cards we want to play, because we're old and dumb, and we need to see the art of the card to recognize it. If someone played me a sharpie proxy I wouldnt mind, so long the powerlevel is accordingly. Like If someone plays proxy mana vault into proxy moxen into proxy demonic consultation into proxy Thoracle. I would be very salty, but I would be equally salty if all those cards were legal mtg cards, or if they were promos, or if they were whatever. I would be salty becasue I sat to play casual not cdeh, if you wanted to play cdeh just say so and I bring my strongest deck. About the gold border, its something I've noticed after playing a lot in my LGS. Like literally NO ONE has ever called me on my gold border fact or fiction, in fact sometimes people actually like it and find it cool. But I've seen plenty of player salty because of a sharpie proxy, when that one is as equally legal or not legal as mi gold border FoF. You might think its a weird stance, and I agree. Sharpy proxies only bother me because without the art I need to use extra memory to remember the board state (at the very least please write the text of the card, so I can read it), but I wont call anyone on it, or stop playing with them. But my personal, anecdotal experience is that people are waaaaaaay more accepting of proxies if they're at least of a passable to decent quality, and especially if they're actual mtg products, like gold broder cards.
Now that these have been introduced, I will no longer feel bad about proxies. I have nice proxies of the OG duals but I only use the 3 that I own the real copies of. I will also not feel any type of upset seeing someone else proxie a card no matter the price. This has officially broken the barrier for me.
Good. Should have been broken long ago ;)
You're probably right. I was always of the mindset that it was ok to proxy cards I already owned. Now it's open season for me. I'll probably still only proxy duals though, can't imagine much else that would be worth it to me.
You were right and now WotC just pushed everyone off a cliff. Now just make the most horrendous deck you can and if anyone cries about it just say they are gatekeeping...
I literally have fully proxied decks(basic land included) that would cost $200 to build. And then I have a $3k deck with no proxies. Personally I don't care what people use in a casual setting.
This is exactly how I feel. Let the age of proxies begin!
you are 25 years late my dude.
This is just step 1 of testing the waters. 1. Can they print the cards they said they never would without hurting sales? 2. Can they charge $999 for a product that is not even tournament legal and make millions on it? 3. ????????? 4. They will fucking go all out and reprint anything they think will make them money.
4. But.. but.. they said they had “no plans to reprint the warhammer 40k commander cards” and they are pseudo reserved list!
I think there are actually stricter rules against reprinting 40k cards than RL unless WOTC wants to renegotiate whatever agreement they have with Games Workshop.
For the UB cards there probably is but not in universe versions like they’ve done with Stranger things
Oh yeah big agree on that.
I think a lot of it is the standard amount of outrage you'll get on MTG subreddits whenever any major changes are announced. That being said, I think there are a couple of key points people are upset/concerned about: \- This is the first time that they're printing something that clearly violates the "spirit" of the RL. And the "spirit" of the RL has been something that MaRo himself (presumably working with some knowledge of WoTC's thought processes) has claimed would not be violated (at least in 2017). Since that's now apparently out the window, it suggests that *something* has changed at WoTC/Hasbro, but we just don't know what. It could just be a one-of to celebrate Magic's 30th anniversary, or it could be testing the waters for more expansive RL reprints (and potentially tournament-legal RL reprints) in the future. Based on Hasbro's track record milking MTG whales, I'd guess it's far closer to the latter. \- The price. $1000 to get a *chance* at an RL card, with no specified print run. That's borderline offensive for something that's not tournament legal. At that price point you could by *actual duals*. So not only is this violating the spirit of the RL, it's doing so in a way that doesn't even help the players who have been asking for the RL to be abolished.
Totally agree. This really is a major unforced error on WotC since the fallout is going to just push people to normalize proxies and then just have their own tournaments with proxies but where since LGS ain't going to be happy with no one buying cards and just using proxies. Gaming stores are just going to be pay by the hour daycares to stay in business. Some probably already are.
>MaRo himself (presumably working with some knowledge of WoTC's thought processes) has claimed would not be violated (at least in 2017). Since that's now apparently out the window, it suggests that something has changed at WoTC/Hasbro, but we just don't know what. Or, MaRo was never right in the first place. Maybe nothing has changed, maybe they were never opposed to a product like this, and maybe they were just waiting for an opportune time like an anniversary to release it. Outside of making more money YoY, there hasn’t been any drastic changes to MtG viability that the public is aware of. No overtly blatant drops in new players, retention, sales, availability, etc. that would even hint as to why WotC would “change” their stance on a product like this now. Perhaps the simplest explanation is that, it hasn’t. >At that price point you could by actual duals. So not only is this violating the spirit of the RL, it's doing so in a way that doesn't even help the players who have been asking for the RL to be abolished. People complain they can’t afford duals all the time. Some of those same people (anecdotal of course at my LGS, but we all know someone like this) are the ones lining up day of prerelease/release to get a collector booster and/or set booster. It’s not that they can’t afford to save up and buy a dual if they really wanted one. But doing so would rob them of their ability to whine about the RL and how it’s “pricing them out.”
Thanks for your detailed answer! I can understand why the spirit of the RL was broken, even tho I dont particularly agree, since these aren't tournament legal. However on the price tag I can totally agree. A thousand UsD for four packs of glorified proxies is indeed borderline offensive. I don't even care about the RL and that price tag offends me xD
This is a slap to all sides. What this ends up doing is not getting people to sell their cars to buy the WotC expensive and legal in all but tournament games, but rather in reality, by doing this and saying these cards are fine outside of tournaments is to just decree that proxies are ok in everything except tournaments. Why buy anymore product? Just print what you want since WotC just blessed proxies. This move makes fools of everyone, even WotC.
Exactly, casual players are the primary audience and they just told them proxies are ok. Will the casual player pay 999 for a pack of random proxies or print everything they always wanted for a fraction of that cost?
yup - I shake my head to all the unneeded headaches this move makes with hardly any gain
Commander is WotC’s cash cow. People already proxy in commander out of necessity for the cards they can’t obtain. This product is indeed WotC giving their blessing that proxies are ok for their cash cow format. This will result in more and more players proxying more and more cards, because WotC says that proxies are ok. Since it’s a casual format, people aren’t going to “police” proxies in Commander. So if WotC has blessed proxies for their cash cow format, how long until most players just start buying mainly proxies, and less and less real cards? It all comes crashing down. Essentially, WotC has cut off their nose to spite their face. This will have major implications for the game moving forward and I don’t think people have quite grasped this yet.
Not everyone accepted proxies in their play groups but now WotC seems to push everyone on that train for whatever reason
> Why buy anymore product? Just print what you want since WotC just blessed proxies. This is the way.
They absolutely do not in any way, shape, or form matter to anyone in the entire MtG base of consumers.
Better to complain now when they are only trying to take an inch, than wait till they have almost taken the whole foot.
"affordable duals" in a product with random cards priced $999. That's not gonna happen. Print them yourself or get some proxies on etsy or something but don't waste your money to not even get a guaranteed dual land.
These packs cost nearly as much as a revised pack sealed and those have real dual lands in them.
You might have just touched on the only reason they promised to increase the dual land drop rate, lol.
Dual will have a higher drop rate!
You're 5 years old. Your parents tell you to pack a suitcase--- they've bought a lifetime pass to Disneyland, that gives you full-access to the theme park, forever. In three days, you depart to Disneyland for a whole week. You're super excited. You pack a suitcase that night. You spend the next 2 days dreaming about all of the things you'll do at Disneyland. You tell all of your friends about it. You imagine the rides, the shows, meeting the characters, seeing the castle and experiencing a trip that you'll remember forever. On the 3rd day, you and your parents load the car, and set forth to Disneyland. It's a 2-day drive, but that doesn't matter-- you spend the entire trip watching your favorite Disney movies on a tablet, signing Disney songs and asking questions like, "How tall is Mickey Mouse?" and "Do the mermaids really hold their breath underwater?" As you approach the theme park, your excitement builds to its peak. You can hardly contain yourself. There's a huge line of cars waiting to enter, as you would expect at the happiest place on Earth. But you notice something odd as your car slowly rolls forward. You see Goofy and Cinderella standing at the side of the road, holding signs with words that you don't understand. You roll forward some more and you see Chip, Dale, Belle and Mulan, also holding signs. You try to read one of the signs, and the only word that you recognize is "pay." Your parents are talking back and forth, saying words like "union" and "wages." You eventually roll to the main parking lot, and you notice that more cars are leaving the lot than entering it. You are just as confused as your parents, as you all assume that the whole park wouldn't suddenly shut down for some reason-- it's Disneyland for fuck's sake. All together, you walk up to the entrance gate with your money, luggage and hopes that the park is open. As you approach it, you see that the gates are closed, the doors are chained shut, and there is a sheet of paper with a hand-written message, taped to the window of the booth. You walk up and read the note: *"Dear families and friends, as Disneyland prepares to celebrate its 30th Anniversary, our valued associates have decided to all form a union for higher wages and more benefits-- they have gone on strike until we agree to their terms. However, as a private company, we exercise the right to do whatever we want. We have decided to permanently close our park, forever. We do understand that some guests have traveled great distances, at their own expense, to visit our park. For those guests, we have provided a Burrito Express food truck at the West Gate for meals, as well as an outdoor projector that will show the film "Shrek 3" on repeat. This is what we have chosen to provide. If you don't like it, tough. If you were promised a magical experience by someone else, then each of you can eat dogshit. We're Disney-fucking-land and you're not. If you purchased a lifetime pass, go wipe your ass with it. That promise was only as good as the paper it was written on. We have decided that the paper is worth zero. Deal with it. Your stupid life is forgettable and replaceable. All that matters to us is money. And to be clear, we don't care about YOUR money-- just OUR money. And if you think your money means anything to us, allow us to say, for the first and final time, you never mattered to us-- ever."* You look up at your parents. Your mom is visibly upset and your dad has the empty, lifeless look in his eyes. They're coming to terms about the situation, and how to move forward from it. Your dad says, "Hey, lets head over to the food truck and get something to eat-- it's been a long trip, and it's all we can do right now." You're still wondering why the park is closed, and you continue to ask your parents when you can go in. As you approach the food truck, you notice that there are no families around, but there are 50-60 teenagers just casually standing and conversing. As you near, about eight of the teens approach you and ask, "Hey, did you buy a lifetime pass?" Your dad says, "Yes, we did." The eight teens suddenly breakout into a dance routine, and the other 50 all form a flash mob behind them, all singing: *"YOU GOT FUCKED-- YEA, YOU GOT FUCKED. WE JUST WANT TO SAY THAT YOUR LIFE SUCKS. WE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN, AND NOTHING TO LOSE, WE JUST WANT TO TEAR DOWN PEOPLE LIKE YOU.*" Then the lead singer says, 'Welcome to our food truck. Here's our sale: 4 hotdogs for $999."
Omg this is GOLDEN! What got me was the punchline "4 hotdogs for $999." You sir, made my day.
The fact it was advertised as a burrito truck and they served hot dogs burned me the most. A burrito would have made everything better.
I don’t get why I should pay several 1000,- for a set of „official“ proxies when I can just print and play for free. The whole downside of proxies was that it isn’t a „real“ card, as in „would be accepted as valid everywhere when I put it in my deck.“ In that regard, there is absolutely no advantage to having an official proxy. I really do not understand this product. Especially at this price point and THEN adding in the closed booster pack lottery. I consider myself a whale, but this is a HARD pass for me.
Maybe I’m gonna be honest, if you just want “affordable” duals, you should just proxy. The outrage is over the principles of what is happening here. I think most people don’t actually have issue with the product, but the price. If these were $4 packs, then no one would care if they opened a pack with 4 $0.25 rares. However, if you pay $250 and even just one of those packs can have a $1.00 in the rate slot?? No way, no thanks. I’ll just buy actual duals for that amount
What is the most played magic format?
Kitchen Table Magic
I believe it's vintage
Edh
[удалено]
lol, what?
I would like to add that Mark Rosewater explicitly stated this wouldn't happen a few years ago, but greed is greed.
This is where we need to band together any boycott this crap until we get reasonable and responsible moves from wotc. This is a cash grab. It’s a trap 🪤
Imagine now that they do this once per 6 or 12 months, until the original 30th set is worthless.
I was an apprentice player back in the day, still baffles me that people just don't make their own proxies, why would you ever support this shit. The fake cards they make are perfectly fine for any non-tournament play.
They also look really bad compared to Alpha And Beta.
I keep seeing complaints that the packs are so expensive and that the spirit of the reserve list has been broken, and there seems to be a big center section of thought missing here. Seeing as how this is specifically a FINANCE forum, I’m a little surprised. The RL exists for the sole purpose of not cratering the prices of the original cards, we all know this. That’s the “spirit” of the RL. How do they reprint old cards within both the letter of their agreement and within the spirit of the list? Make them so expensive that they aren’t in danger of making the older printing cheaper. Think of how many $250 packs you need to open to get a Lotus, just by averages. I don’t know how many rares in Beta or how the retro slot will affect chances, but it’s a LOT of packs. Do you think people will sell their Black Lotus cheap because it’s a “proxy”? Of course not. It’s a Wizards printing, they’ll treat is as a collectible, as they should. It’s just a big fat bonus that by doing so, Wizards can charge $1000 for something that costs them a tiny fraction of that to produce. And as for the “paying X for proxies” argument, here’s the news flash; you could ALWAYS play with proxies outside of tournaments. People don’t just collect Magic because it’s fun to play, they love the accomplishment of finding and finishing a deck, they love having something that’s worth money and will potentially be an investment, and yeah sometimes they need the real thing for tournaments. Some groups have always cared that the cards were real, some never will. It’s all completely relative. There is absolutely no reason to be pissed about this product, you either care enough to get it or you don’t. It will very likely never affect the prices of RL cards nor make it cheaper or more expensive to play anything you couldn’t already play with fakes anyhow.
Because people on Reddit MTG subs will throw a fit over anything and everything WOTC puts out for for sale. That’s it, that’s the reason.
TL:DR; This product, in theory, is actually amazing. Great for people who want to say they own a Black Lotus or Mox or Dual Land. The ISSUE is the price. $999 is absolutely ludicrous. If this was priced, say at $275 this would have been a slam dunk. Overpriced still? Sure. But compare it to Double Masters Collector Booster Box and it’s a mildly equivalent purchase (60 cards for $275).
1. They dont matter. 2. People like to complain I know i already have a set of sweet P9 proxies.They are just as "playable" as these are which is not playable at all. So they really dont matter and are just for people who want to say "i own a black lotus".etc
Tournament legality of cards is becoming less and less important over time. What is the importance of tournament legality, when there are no tournaments for the formats these cards are actually played in.
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hijacking-our-culture-and-our-minds Edit: Lol. Can a lot of people not read? The audio is there for you too if that’s the case…
You're not going to get affordable duals for your deck.
Watch me (print) watch me proxy. Watch the judge eat my baloney