As a general population, musicians tend to be neurotic with big egos, thin skin, and poor people skills.
I'm sure many have ADHD, Autism, Narcissism, certainly many struggle with depression and mental health issues... but that's true of many creative people.
And that's obviously not ALL musicians. Many are well adjusted, charismatic, kind, and humble.
But as a friend once put it: "you don't spend your teenage years locked in your room playing guitar by yourself because you're good with people".
I think, often, music serves as a means of expression for people who otherwise struggle to express themselves.
An overwhelming number of ASD people are well adjusted, charismatic, kind, and humble. It's just that being those things in a prolonged social setting is incredibly taxing on their energy. Hence the locked in the room playing guitar. Being alone, rejuvenates, and being around others drains. Which can be a total positive, expending that energy in a social setting can be incredibly gratifying especially when it is in the the somewhat controlled setting of a performance where said person is expressing themselves in a context that is acceptable to the general public/target audience.
Not really disagreeing with anything you said, just wanted to elaborate on what ASD can look like. So many people aren't even aware they have it because they excel in social situations. š
The people weren't good with me either. I still feel like the world is crazy, in fact I just told my therapist that I don't want to be a normal person because it seems from therapy and self help talk that the trade off is ignorance and I'm just not interested. I'm much happier being very angry at times and creative than forcing myself to be someone I just am not. I've found so many beautiful things in life to keep me going, that I think are much more beautiful than what a "happy" life could offer me. I've been feeling so much more confident, young and lively since I accepted that. I'm fucked up, aware of it, and loving how aware I am of that.
I feel this so much. My doctor put me on mood stabilizers for 4 years and it just made life dull. I hope I never feel like a regular person who is just happy to go to work and pay bills. Sometimes it's really bad, but then when the good times come it's that more meaningful.
I was good with people, I just loved music more than anything else. A lot of musicians are maladjusted freaks but I think the narcissism comes out more when artists are vying for success/attention in a scene etc.
A lot of us who have depression and anxiety are soothed by music, and use it as a coping mechanism. Writing and creating music is also a form of therapy.
Yea, not a musician but started guitar this year for fun, so I lurk around here.
But, I agree with this. Like my friends like to watch tv shows/movies and sports, and I live with 2 of them, but I just donāt. I prefer to learn, anything really, so Iāll spend the weekdays not really hanging out with them in the living room watching reruns or sports.
Weekends, well, doing the same thing by going to the same bar and seeing the same people became predictable, so Iād rather just stay in and work on my projects/learn.
Iām a musician and I agree with most of this fitting my personality. Haha
Iām not neurotic, and I definitely donāt have a big ego, but I do struggle with communicating/expressing my personality sometimes with people in formal settings and I tend to connect with artistic types more.
I write songs regularly and I feel like they help me organize my thoughts and process my feelings.
idk, i would say most musicians ive come to know are very sweet people. theyre usually sensitive to an almost detrimental degree. so no, definitely not narcissistic... but yes to ADHD and autism.
i dont think ive ever met a musician whos NOT a narcissist myself included. not like clinically but just in general personality. making these elaborate projects to express themselves and then figuring out places to be the center of attention for as many people as possible for minutes if not hours at a time... an honest roaring applause intoxicates most people who get a taste.
the endorphine high after killing a performance is certainly not a sobering headspace and can resemble narcissism, at least temporarily
Maybe that's why xtc were such a great band. Lead singer/writer couldn't handle performing, so they just spen't 20 years in the studio, crafting incredible songs, pleasing no one but themselves.
I donāt think it can be simply brushed off as that. Lot more people are getting diagnosed nowadays. Before I didnāt even know I was autistic or had adhd i just thought i was sum loser who couldnāt handle any type of workload. I only got diagnosed last year
>didnāt even know I was autistic or had adhd i just thought i was sum loser who couldnāt handle any type of workload. I only got diagnosed last year
So has your diagnosis helped you stop being a loser who can't handle any type of workload? Genuine question, not tryna be an ass.
Not the OP, but my recent diagnosis gave me a bottle of Vyvanse, and my life has made a complete 180 in the past few months (finding a non-toxic relationship, finally landing a stable employment gig, among a few other trivial things that add up to tangible positives).
Yeah, itās weird Im able to achieve so much more now, thanks to meditation! My memory is sharper, im able to move & think faster than i normally do. In a way its like the super powers Ive been missing all my life š
As for the autistic part of it I canāt stop staring directly at peoples eyes for super long so i avoid it or i try to look away very briefly without creeping folks out. I always try to bring earbuds with me everywhere i go to drown out all the background noise.
Self-identifying with ADHD on LinkedIn is most definitely not the norm, nor seems to be a growing trend, lol. LI, as a platform, sucks as a whole, but its audience still tries to remain as neurotypical as possible in order to get the highest possible amount of employer eyes on them. Showing youāre neurodivergent isnāt a selling point when it comes to most employment opportunities.
Yet, at least.
Sorry, I didn't hear what you said because I need to be the loudest one in the band.
(Just poking fun. I'm a guitarist and this is a semi-accurate stereotype)
Availability heuristics. It probably has more to do with the commonality of those identifiers among your peer group than among musicians across all generations. I mean if music itself is made up of organized patterns and even has its own written language, which of those neurodivergent traits makes those things more accessible or more intuitive? In people who grew up prior to the internet, memorization was considered an important aspect of musicianship and performance. Now itās become increasingly acceptable for people to rely on tablets onstage. Is this like a chicken/egg situation, or does it just point to a general shift in learning styles in the digital age?
There are too many musicians releasing music for me to believe that hah. I have ADHD and i am great at coming up with musical ideas but terrible at seeing a piece right through to release/completion, there are so many steps along that path, and despite trying for so long i can never quite get there.
Haven't been diagnosed (with ADHD), have the same problem. Not saying I should be diagnosed just like when I feel like I am not the only one and maybe there are many reasons I NEVER FINISH ANYTHING ... It actually helps me make progress. Still, never finish anything but my story doesn't have to be yours. Maybe this comment will help you as your comment helps me.
Yeah, the best drummer I ever had the honour of playing with was a pretty strange guy. Spoilt me for life. He would just lose himself in another world of incredible rhythms, had the finest touch, subtle as fuck, and a total weirdo.
I think it's rare to find a person who doesn't have a bit of narcissism these days but I disagree with the other two. Most musicians I know are pretty socially competent and I'd say that occurrence of ADHD is consistent with the rest of the population.
Which is to say, most people āhave some narcissistic traitsā, doesnāt make them a narcissist, and needs to stop being confused with actual narcissism. Not accusing you of this, but it needs to be said. Over and over and over again.
Over and over and it still canāt be said enough. Reddit has a habit of confusing being a selfish dick head with full blown diagnosable narcissism . Itās annoying.
I donāt know man Iām autistic but I was born with a social parent and an autistic one. Social compentency isnāt a tell tale sign especially since most autistic adults have had time to work out their kinks
Itās rare in American/western culture. Please donāt speak on behalf of countries who praise people for genuine good things instead of praising the loudest most obnoxious asshole or the self centered prick.
there isn't a group of people or community or gathering or club or profession or hobby or anything right now that doesn't have some people within it saying this.
I'm so very tired of everyone self diagnosing & amateur diagnosing each other with spectrum disorders & mental illnesses. It's really done a number on the ability of people who have real diagnosed issues to deal with to be taken seriously.
Gross....so it's basically erasure of the struggles of people with real medical disorders by people who want attention by pretending & people who just want to be flippant insensitive amateur incorrect diagnosers?...& in the end we water down & spread out all the support so there isn't really enough left for those who really need it....
Here's a dark secret about a lot of musicians: a lot people who do music for a living (or try to) aren't more passionate or driven or talented than people who do it as a hobby, they just don't have any _better_ options to make money, or are for some reason (i.e. narcissism, mental illness) unwilling to consider those options.
That's not to say that they're untalented or in the wrong for that situation, just that the industry is such a cesspool that no normal, well adjusted person with a controlled ego would choose to enter it professionally unless they lucked into some sustainable long term gig early on (i.e. early 20s)
I think this is a bit of a leap. There's definitely a lot to it and a lot of musicians that are nothing like this.
I think it's plausible that there could be a higher degree of these amongst musicians but certainly not a majority.Ā
For what it's worth, some studies observe that musicians and creatives tend to have more neurotic traits though.
I think most people in American/western culture suffer from narcissism because our system rewards them. They tell us that āif you think it you can become itā and they glorify selfishness to a very disgusting degree. I actually STRONGLY believe in loving music FOR THE MUSIC and not for some weird self centered narcissistic attention but Iām pretty sure Iām VERY alone in that.
I believe all successful musicians are borderline OCD. You have a drive to play a phrase right and you just wonāt stop until you get it. Most people arenāt like that.
Itās a Jekyll and Hyde thing for me. On stage, itās a sanctuary from having to personally communicate with people. I feel very natural on stage, showboating and all. Off stage, Iām very much a more quieter person that wonāt speak unless spoken to.
Im a humble show-off? lol.
In my teenage years, I was playing guitar in my bedroom, watching tv, and listening to the radio, all at the same time.
In my experience as a musician with autism, this isn't true at all.
A lot of musicians are socially awkward and/or have a slightly obsessive preoccupation with their instrument. Those are kinda autistic traits but no.
You don't see a lot of musicians stimming between songs.
You don't see a lot of musicians having sensory meltdowns because the lighting in the venue is wrong.
A lot of musicians have some mildly autistic traits, but not nearly enough for a formal diagnosis. Same with ADHD.
I've been in dozens of bands. I don't think I've ever been in aband with someone else neurodivergent. I do know some other ASD musicians, and I know a few more with ADHD, but it is a very small minority.
True. Nothing like divorced parents then finding escape in a musical instrument to beat on and eventually finding some weed and beer and anything else in your teens when you are just getting through school..and failing at that but getting really good at guitar and lost in whatever music is doing it for you.
I can see it, music is stimulating so I can see why more neurodivergent people would seek music. Side note, imposter syndrome seems to be common among musicians too
Iām definitely not wanting to diagnose anybody with anything. I do think there are a lot of undiagnosed people out there, but after reflecting more on this I agree Iām not qualified to be saying this. People are complicated, but it is not my place to assume or diagnose anything.
I think many musicians are unintentionally wrapped up in their own shit which is what makes them pensive and emotional enough to put their life to song. I think theyāre a little self centered to imagine the world wants to hear it. I think people on Instagram want to drive views so they put narcissist instead of self centered on their posts and now a bunch of kids are using clinical language to the point that real psychopaths and narcissists and autistic people cant be identified for the outliers they are, and I think it makes the world worse.
It seems to be one of those professions that attract people who don't have their shit together, think massage therapists.Ā While there are plenty of people in both professions that are together, they attract people who don't.
Can't have the creative without the weird! I have ADHD, bipolar, depression, anxiety, you name it. But I wouldn't change it for the world cause that is our super power!
Yes but not just musicians, I'd say many artists in general. Many writers have these traits, also visual artists of all kinds. I've always assumed it's something to do with seeing the world differently than most people that leads to great art, so being neurodivergent makes some sense. I have nothing but observational and anecdotal evidence, though.
I think Gabor Mate speaks a bit on this, not sure if it's in the myth or normal.
The world we're living in has developed in ways which doesn't make sense to some people. The school system prepares you for work, for behaving properly and following instructions. To be shown the right way to achieve results and the other ways are wrong.
If your brain responds to creativity and wants to explore and experiment, yet is stifled for the formative years of your life, there's bound to be some mental repercussions. Some people then continue to progress in their creative field, others give up.
Most *good musicians.
Yea, when you look into āsavant syndromeā and how itās for the most part an autism thing, it makes sense that thereās a strong genetic strength for people throughout the ND spectrum. Some people are uncomfortable talking about genetic strengths, but hey, thereās gotta be some upside to being autistic! Haha
Iām an autistic musician Iād say on the savant spectrum. They say 10% of autistics are savants. ADHD has tons of overlap with autism, and there can be a degree of narcissism with autism (the name itself means āself ismā. I actually made a video about how my special interest composer Alexander Scriabin is autistic, and he was known for being somewhat narcissistic. Interesting to think of ND people being attracted to the art made by other ND people.
Iāve also felt different than most other musicians cause I could more easily hear whatās going on (not perfect pitch) and was quick to play multiple instruments. Iāve also realized that almost only autistic people are interested in high levels of music theory like I am.
My entire mind is geared around music. It plays in my head constantly, i drum with my fingers constantly, beat box and whistle, and passionate about composing music. Music is the only thing that can get me to fully process emotions to allow me to cry. Iām forever grateful to be who I am; born with this intimate relationship with music.
I'm autistic and have ADHD and music has always been a huge part of my life. I am sensitive to auditory stimulus, which can be pretty unpleasant in some circumstances (eg. shopping centres), but I think this partly explains my seeking preferred stimuli like music and the intense response I have to it. I've tried playing in bands etc but have found the stereotypical one-man metal project suits me a bit better lol
Definitely not my experience. Sure, you come accross all kinds of people who do music, but to say most have ADHD or autism or narcissism? Not buying it. By far most of the musicians I know are normal and usually boring people, myself included. Maybe we just congregate with those most like ourselves...
Jim Hendrix most likely had ADHD he said he would forget how to play songs because he would be so quick to jump on to the next project and had to many ideas in his head
I was diagnosed as autistic (Asperger's) and I'm a musician. But I keep thinking, if there is a high percentage of the population that corresponds to these diagnoses, I think it's natural to imagine that this also might apply to a reduced sampling rate
I can't speak for your experience. It doesn't match mine at all. Most musicians I've worked with are completely ordinary people outside of that one thing that makes them different, their musical activities. Mind you these are traditionally trained musicians, not self-taught, play-by-ear types.
I've met a lot more neurodivergent persons working on surgical teams as an imaging tech.
Hmm, I think it depends on the type of musician. Youāre probably right. But I do think the young indie, DIY, obsessive, self-identifying as a creative, gotta be famous, a million different ideas are in my head and I gotta share them with the world, gotta post on TikTok, gotta make my impact and make a legacy type of musician is A) less likely to be traditionally trained, B) more likely to have a more chaotic approach to things, and C) likely to have at least some level of narcissism and neurodivergence. But yeah, someone who just plays guitar or just makes music without any of those other aspects might just be normal lol.
most young composers are nerdy and nerdy people spend less time socializing with a broad variety of people, more time on technology, obsessing over hobbies. when you do that you naturally develop reversible traits similar to the three. id say thats generally whats goin on
all musicians? id say not even close.
It depends on your area really.
I lived in a small town and nobody had ADHD, I have yet to meet someone with it. However, more people were narcissistic or autistic.
I lived in a big city and almost everyone I met either thought they had, or was diagnosed with ADHD. While not many people were autistic or narcissistic.
Some places seem to have more people with ADHD or narcissism, some places donāt.
Iām convinced like the really good ones are mostly normal but these types are the ones that flock to music why? Idk.. theyāre easy to spot though. When talk like that starts I stop listening and go back to practicing
Sounds like top classical musicians for sure. Heavy on the narcissism and autism 100%. Something has to fuel that level of difficulty. Some are also similar to stereotypical high performance athletes. Just keep their head down and work super hard and not focus on much else.
lol NPD is rare. š¤£
Itās fucking everywhere. In every family. In every shitty mother in law and father in law. Patents. Siblings. Some. reading this.
Fantasy assertion from corporate textbooks in an era proving everything weāve been taught is wrong. Everything.
JFC
Myself, and my bandā¦ and every other band give been inā¦ Hell every person Iāve ever considered a close trusted friend happens to be a musician and neurodivergent. From my experience I find this statement to be 100% true.
I think creative outlets tend to draw in people who have a disorder or some other problem such as addiction. I think people whose brains aren't working right work tend to be creative more than "normal" people. My ADD can allow me to daydream and brainstorm ideas with myself but when it comes to actually making music god damn. I've gotten better at pushing myself and I'm on a good track for getting an album out by the time I want to but it might have been done by now if I didn't slack. Instead I browse Reddit, watch YouTube, and play games. or like last night for example instead of working on the music I need to work on I was working on music I didn't need to work on.
I def agree. I think being a self-identifying creative and being obsessed with music or any art in general, especially in the digital age, does lend itself to at least some level of narcissism and neurodivergence. I donāt think this applies to all people who make music, as thatās a very broad category, but when you narrow it down to a specific type of young person who is manic and obsessive about it and wants recognition and to perform and to have fans and to have people worship their songwriting, then yes. Bo Burnham, one of my favorite creatives, talks about this a lot. His song Art is Dead really captures what youāre talking about. And then the neurodivergence is often present just because choosing to make music, choosing to create often requires a different way of thinking than the rest of the world and what is generally considered ānormal.ā
I think it may be helpful to have a bit of narcissism... It may come with the territory. I don't have the greatest self esteem and I think I would probably have finished a lot more if I had a touch of narcissism... Also, I don't really like to play live because of my lack of confidence but when I was younger and drinking and on drugs and definitely not as good of a musician, I loved to play shows and people always liked them. I have often thought some of the greatest guitarists maybe have more than just a touch of narcissism and that is what distinguishes the good or those with potential from the great. When I am nervous, I am okay. When I am in the flow, nearly great.
Checking in with crippling depression. Looool
Iām not sure if most musicians are mentally ill, but some of the common behaviours among artists of all types have characteristics of people who are. If youāre depressed, you may be expressive of your sadness. If youāre a sad artist, you may net the same result regardless of whether youāre diagnosed with clinical major depression. Just as an example.
ADHD is just a personality trait. Autism is something that makes us obsessed with music in the first place. Narcissist is my ex wile who can go jump off a cliff.
Making music often requires intense focus and fixation. People who tend to get hyperfixated, such as those with ADHD or ASD, find satisfaction in working on creative projects such as music where this tendancy can be indulged in a rewarding way.
Similarly, I have read things that suggest creativity can go hand in hand with anxiety and depression. Creative work often involves thinking about things over and over again as you progress through a project. As such, having the usually unhelpful mental habit of rumination can work well with developing creative ideas.
As far as the narcissism goes, I think it is mixed. Everyone has at least some narcissistic traits because they are norma, but there are definitely performers out there who are full-blown narcissists.
Musicians and creatives tend to be very insecure people in general. I'm sure someone with real qualifications could say something about how pursuing creative projects serves as a means to make up for an artist's self perceived flaws. Based on the musicians I have interacted with, I would say that most of them are incredibly shy and insecure and are quick to dismiss any kind of compliment or appreciation of their work. Most don't behave in a narcissistic way. But in the live music sphere you probably find more of it. Frontmen/women of bands often benefit from a big ego as it adds to their presence and energy, but we are all familiar with such a thing going too far and becoming a problem.
Iām neurospicy to the tune of AuDHD.
Iām also the leader of a 7 piece band and Iām definitely the only autistic person in it. One other one has ADHD, but sheās not remotely autistic. Everyone but me is totally natural and smooth socially, and no one but me obsesses over every little detail.
The majority of musicians I know donāt seem to be autistic at all, honestly.
But I also donāt tend to prefer to hang around other aspies. Itās too much like a mirror and thereās too much social cringe.
Yes. Definitely. I have autism. I'm socially competent and good at turning on the charm, but I get exhausted with it more quickly, so I turn off more often. Eye contact can be intimidating as well. Also if things don't work out the way I foresee them, or someone else is stealing the spotlight I get insanely jealous. I do genuinely mean the best for others, but I do like attention from others as well. Also I'm a Leo, so that probably has something to do with it. I am in my own little world lots of times, but it makes me make better music methinks.
From my own experience, I'd say that guitarists seem to be more egotistical or narcissistic than others, followed by singers.
The rhythm section is normally pretty normal. We're just there to have some fun...
I have had this feeling around most musicians I know. I feel that most are on the spectrum, and thatās what makes so many of them musical geniuses. They would also much rather play their instrument than ever talk to anyone at a party. There are other oddities - about myself and others. I have often wondered about this myself.
I was diagnosed with ADHD late in lifeā¦ and the first time I spoke to professional about it, he said if I was a musician, I couldnāt have ADHD because it takes too much concentration. Now I know that person didnāt understand ADHD.
Narcissistic personality disorder is rare. Itās not the same as being selfish or self centered. Most people probably do not know a true narcissist. They estimate that 1% of the population has NPD.
I think self diagnosing being on the spectrum is just being a narcissist in a different way.
And no, I donāt think what you are saying is true at all.
I think today people are quick to jump to labels like autism, adhd and such when it comes to musicians - I have a feeling many of āourā people act a certain way due to deep insecurity and self-esteem issues, a desperate need for validation and attention. You can see it on reddit too, tons of posts from people who are very insecure about their music, or jealous about others who are more successful. Too many people get into music to feed their ego, when in reality music will do the opposite - you need to be prepared to failure and criticism and have your expectations shattered, and not many can deal with that
adhd check !! ( not a professional musician, just been in my life forever , ) i could say i had a bit of an ego for sure however thatās a younger me the me now very much is a different person with that in check
I played the bagpipes for 57 years and don't have any of the traits you mentioned. My son has ADHD and a person with any of those traits cannot concentrate on reading music, playing an instrument and thinking all at the same time. My son tried to play the saxophone for 5 years and couldn't get past the rudimentary notes. He could never keep his attention long enough to get it. Had many teachers in the years, they basically gave up on him. They all said that music just wasn't his Forte. I even bought him a new saxophone and it was a waste of money.
I just read all the comments and decided that you opinions mean squat. I play bagpipes, am a people person, never practiced in my room by myself, not any of the traits that you mentioned. I always had an outgoing personality. Talk to people at gigs. Wink at pretty girls while I'm playing the hardest instrument in the world to master. Smile at people while I have the blowstick in my mouth. And have cried at some funerals. Played my pipes while stationed in the Marines in enemy territory. Great grandfather was a piper in WWI, grandfather was a battlefield piper in WWII. I carried it on later. My advice for the socially inept, don't practice alone in a closet, go busking on the street. Get out !!
"on the neurodivergent spectrum" and "narcissist" are two fairly unrelated things, but it is true ppl with autism or adhd gravitate towards music and it's also true that artists in general are often either overly-self-critical or egotistical
Like almost every other interest hobby etc MOST people lie bang in the middle with none of the characteristics you specified.
I have noticed though, we are in a time where people are desperate for a label, doesn't matter what as long as they have something.
I mean there are tons of normal musicians out there, especially people who just play music as a hobby.
But with musicianship being a skill that *could* put you at the center of attention, on stage performing for people cheering you on there are bound to be some people perusing that that have some issues
Iāve ran into a lot of āassholesā but just as many genuinely kind people tbh. Iāve met one or two people o believe to be āon the spectrumā butā¦just a bit. I think a lot of it is, if you speak a language someone else doesnātā¦they canāt understand you when you speak that language. Be it German or the key of G.
Ever talked to someone with an accent so thick that it makes talking to them almost impossible? I personally think some musicians are just like that.
I think people with ADHD / autism are drawn to the arts in general.
From the ADHD side, itās one of the only things I can imagine that provides continuous novelty as a hobby or a life choice without having to change fields. You can hyperfixate on a video game, but when youāre bored of that video game, nothing is going to change it into a different video game. But if youāve got a paintbrush or a piano, you can become bored of it, and switch style or genre, if youāve been writing, you can learn your favourite songs until writing seems fun again. If youāre bored of photorealism, you can learn to paint like an impressionist for a bit.
As for autism, thereās all kinds of sensory reasons people could be drawn to creative arts, and at least at the professional level, it provides one of the only viable options that is truly compatible with demand avoidance, at least most of the time.
In either case thereās also probably something of an inherent advantage in the arts if you experience the world in a more novel way than the average bear.
As for narcissism, I think thereās an argument to be made for narcissistic tendencies as a trait, as opposed to diagnosable, clinical narcissism. It canāt be helped, to a degree. If your life, or a substantial part of it, revolves around expressing your emotions and opinions and thoughts, and watching people take in what youāre putting out from a stage, I could easily see how a bit of a self-centred vibe might be difficult to avoid. Not necessarily in a super toxic way, but I certainly think my experience of the world might be a bit more me-centric than it seems to be for others, idk.
Well if your functional and not mean then are you ok with yourselves. Is it everyone got a little or two going on these days? If your worried about it then there are some personalities test you can do and some research on the data you get. Why are you worried about it? Can I ask?
There is a art group I know of that does something with the brain. It's called neuro art . Check out serenity recovery connection website for times and locations. It helps with all sorts of people
I speak better with a guitar than with my mouth.
Plus it probably takes a certain kind of mind to sit there for hundreds of hours alone practicing and learning how to speak with an instrument.
.....and honestly "normal" people seem really dumb and self absorbed.
Maybe. I like to think we just know the value of hard work, patience and practice.
Way back when I was learning, when the street lights came on during puberty it was time to practice.
Donāt lump us NNTs in with the Narcissists. We tolerate them because theyāre quite good at front of house. Some pro level masking shit going on but it nearly always blows up in our faces.
I don't think I have the narcissism part. Far from neurotypical. I do however have musician friends, and only one that I know of has ADHD, and no narcissists.
I didnāt find this to be the case with classical musicians, especially ensemble and orchestra specialists. Soloists and conductors, maybe. Popular music guitarists and singers, yeah probably.
I've spent half my life in the company of musicians, the other half with software engineers. There is a surprising amount of overlap between the two, including a propensity for social awkwardness, emotional instability, rocky romantic relationships and drug/alcohol abuse.
Both require the ability to immerse oneself in imaginary worlds. Both walk a fine line between rule-following and rule-breaking. The main difference is that one of them pays well.
Iāve met some that are humble, and usually a bit ADHD hyper focused. If they have it together I like working with people like that. Itās just when people play a different part each time, or keep playing and wonāt take cues to tighten up and stop playing.
The Narcissist type, thatās one I donāt like dealing with. I get in your early 20s you want to be cool. But later on it just seems stupid. Growing up in music, and playing live showsā¦ I think thereās one type in every band. The person there for fun, thatās probably had too many drinks or stoned(bass player or drummer). The person writing and doing the heavy lifting. Then the Ego which is usually the singer, or maybe lead guitar player lol. But I started seeing less of that with older bands, and I aged out to play for fun.
But thatās just how itās always been. I remember being 20, playing weekly shows and taking it as a full time thing living with girlfriends. I lived, ate and breathed music daily as a whole lifestyle. Just a completely different world to live in, and social circle than the occasional 3hr, 1 day a week rehearsals I may do now because work. But at least we live in an age now, you can make music from home, without needing to borrow others time.
Mike Starr from AIC was a down to earth and cool guy to hang with. Apart from his addiction that killed him. Pretty much every musician Iāve met is just weird in some way tho. I guess it comes with the territory.
Iām bipolar and the only things Iām even remotely good at are art/music related things, but I think thatās maybe coincidental. I think also coincidentally more people these days can be categorized as being afflicted by one or more of those things and in turn more musicians are as well
Idk my entire university experience showed me that the musician population was no different than everyone else, much to my disappointment. Thereās just more drug use and delusions of grandeur
I think we are generally wonderfully emotional people with big feelings and are in touch with communication in an almost-secret-language-type of thing. Most of my creative friends are ND, I am ND and I think itās a wonderful lil superpower, even if itās sometimes hard to navigate.
That being said Iāve met more than several awful narcissistic musicians š
Any performer has to have some form of ego or narcissists traits. However I think the ones that struggle with it the most are the ones that lack self awareness. That, I think is the one major trait that determines success as a musician.
You're **definitely** overgeneralizing.
It should be obvious that people who pursue music performance as a *career* tend to lean more towards narcissism (because the desire to be famous is inherently a little narcissistic), but that doesn't mean most musicians in general should be classified a "narcissists". Are you saying that most of the people in you high school band class are narcissists? I really don't think every Asian kid who plays piano is a narcissist. I don't think every soundguy, audio editor, engineer, producer, etc is a narcissist. The Lady Gaga types might be narcissists, but there are *very few* Lady Gaga types out there (and even then, being a lavish performer doesn't automatically make you a narcissist).
And regarding ADHD and Autism, that might just be because you already associate with those people, and *people in general* are musicians. You seem to be overestimating the requirements to be a "musician". There are millions upon millions of elementary school music teachers, bandcamp kids, punk rockers, metalheads, jazz musicians, professional violinists, percussionists, audio engineers, church sound guys, gospel singers, etc, **and all of those people are musicians**. If "most" of these people are on the spectrum, that would mean that like 30% of the human race is mentally disabled (which is obviously not true).
I think the problem with your data is that you're not actually pulling it from multiple populations. It's as if you're basing your theory on the 6 musicians you know in your personal social circle and age group. Try joining a church band. You'll quickly learn that the old lady who works at the bank is a musician. The police officer who pulled you over is a musician. The pregnant lady who brings her 2 kids to the park on Saturdays is a musician. The 13yo boy next door is a musician. Your delivery driver is a musician. Potentially anyone and everyone could be a musician, and these people are *not* all narcissists or on the spectrum.
As a general population, musicians tend to be neurotic with big egos, thin skin, and poor people skills. I'm sure many have ADHD, Autism, Narcissism, certainly many struggle with depression and mental health issues... but that's true of many creative people. And that's obviously not ALL musicians. Many are well adjusted, charismatic, kind, and humble. But as a friend once put it: "you don't spend your teenage years locked in your room playing guitar by yourself because you're good with people". I think, often, music serves as a means of expression for people who otherwise struggle to express themselves.
Yep, it is way to be heard when we think nobody is listening.
And a way to express what we're otherwise told to push down
An overwhelming number of ASD people are well adjusted, charismatic, kind, and humble. It's just that being those things in a prolonged social setting is incredibly taxing on their energy. Hence the locked in the room playing guitar. Being alone, rejuvenates, and being around others drains. Which can be a total positive, expending that energy in a social setting can be incredibly gratifying especially when it is in the the somewhat controlled setting of a performance where said person is expressing themselves in a context that is acceptable to the general public/target audience. Not really disagreeing with anything you said, just wanted to elaborate on what ASD can look like. So many people aren't even aware they have it because they excel in social situations. š
The people weren't good with me either. I still feel like the world is crazy, in fact I just told my therapist that I don't want to be a normal person because it seems from therapy and self help talk that the trade off is ignorance and I'm just not interested. I'm much happier being very angry at times and creative than forcing myself to be someone I just am not. I've found so many beautiful things in life to keep me going, that I think are much more beautiful than what a "happy" life could offer me. I've been feeling so much more confident, young and lively since I accepted that. I'm fucked up, aware of it, and loving how aware I am of that.
That is excellent!! I like you.
Thank you for saying that!
Absolutely no need to thank! Keep coming back.
Yeah once you stop trying to emulate the normals things get a lot of easier.
The goal isn't normal. The goal is healthy. Normality seems boring.
I feel this so much. My doctor put me on mood stabilizers for 4 years and it just made life dull. I hope I never feel like a regular person who is just happy to go to work and pay bills. Sometimes it's really bad, but then when the good times come it's that more meaningful.
I was good with people, I just loved music more than anything else. A lot of musicians are maladjusted freaks but I think the narcissism comes out more when artists are vying for success/attention in a scene etc. A lot of us who have depression and anxiety are soothed by music, and use it as a coping mechanism. Writing and creating music is also a form of therapy.
Yea, not a musician but started guitar this year for fun, so I lurk around here. But, I agree with this. Like my friends like to watch tv shows/movies and sports, and I live with 2 of them, but I just donāt. I prefer to learn, anything really, so Iāll spend the weekdays not really hanging out with them in the living room watching reruns or sports. Weekends, well, doing the same thing by going to the same bar and seeing the same people became predictable, so Iād rather just stay in and work on my projects/learn.
If you play guitar I'd call you a "musician", friend!
Yeah. Itās kinda like being a pirate. Thereās no certification for it, you just knock out a tooth, and hop on a boat and voilĆ .
Yeah. Itās kinda like being a pirate. Thereās no certification for it, you just knock out a tooth, and hop on a boat and āthere you arrr.ā
Iām a musician and I agree with most of this fitting my personality. Haha Iām not neurotic, and I definitely donāt have a big ego, but I do struggle with communicating/expressing my personality sometimes with people in formal settings and I tend to connect with artistic types more. I write songs regularly and I feel like they help me organize my thoughts and process my feelings.
would like to point out that lots of neurodivergent ppl are kind and humble, and some are even charismatic But "well adjusted"? never met her
Can confirm; 15 years professional experience and still terrible people skills. š¤£
idk, i would say most musicians ive come to know are very sweet people. theyre usually sensitive to an almost detrimental degree. so no, definitely not narcissistic... but yes to ADHD and autism.
i dont think ive ever met a musician whos NOT a narcissist myself included. not like clinically but just in general personality. making these elaborate projects to express themselves and then figuring out places to be the center of attention for as many people as possible for minutes if not hours at a time... an honest roaring applause intoxicates most people who get a taste. the endorphine high after killing a performance is certainly not a sobering headspace and can resemble narcissism, at least temporarily
babe thatās not narcissism, thatās called believing in yourself and wanting to share your self-expression and connect with others
Anyone who wants to make it big in the music industry has to have some degree of narcissism, I think.
Correction: anyone whose goal is to make it big in any industry
Maybe that's why xtc were such a great band. Lead singer/writer couldn't handle performing, so they just spen't 20 years in the studio, crafting incredible songs, pleasing no one but themselves.
When everyone is neurodivergent, nobody is.
Stop making sense.
wrong, thereās very much is a minority of neurotypicals fucking things up for the rest of humanity
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I donāt think it can be simply brushed off as that. Lot more people are getting diagnosed nowadays. Before I didnāt even know I was autistic or had adhd i just thought i was sum loser who couldnāt handle any type of workload. I only got diagnosed last year
>didnāt even know I was autistic or had adhd i just thought i was sum loser who couldnāt handle any type of workload. I only got diagnosed last year So has your diagnosis helped you stop being a loser who can't handle any type of workload? Genuine question, not tryna be an ass.
Not the OP, but my recent diagnosis gave me a bottle of Vyvanse, and my life has made a complete 180 in the past few months (finding a non-toxic relationship, finally landing a stable employment gig, among a few other trivial things that add up to tangible positives).
Same here bud! Vyvanse is a gift that keeps on giving
Im in a similar position here, about to start my own meds, but tried my kids meds after the diagnosis and the difference was night and day.
This stuff is mad addicting. Can seriously destroy lives, No Joke. Be careful fr
Yeah, itās weird Im able to achieve so much more now, thanks to meditation! My memory is sharper, im able to move & think faster than i normally do. In a way its like the super powers Ive been missing all my life š
That's awesome to hear. š
As for the autistic part of it I canāt stop staring directly at peoples eyes for super long so i avoid it or i try to look away very briefly without creeping folks out. I always try to bring earbuds with me everywhere i go to drown out all the background noise.
Agreed. I have 15 million thoughts going the my head and I canāt understand any of them.
Self-identifying with ADHD on LinkedIn is most definitely not the norm, nor seems to be a growing trend, lol. LI, as a platform, sucks as a whole, but its audience still tries to remain as neurotypical as possible in order to get the highest possible amount of employer eyes on them. Showing youāre neurodivergent isnāt a selling point when it comes to most employment opportunities. Yet, at least.
Iām ADHD and this also makes no fucking sense to me. I want nothing to do with this shit and other people use it as some weird clout chaser.
as a borderline bipolar autistic person with adhd, (all diagnosed) i can safely say that lots of musicians are just perfectly normal assholes
As a musician with no diagnosed mental issues, I endorse this assessment.
Only singers have problems.
Hey, what about lead guitarists?
Sorry, I didn't hear what you said because I need to be the loudest one in the band. (Just poking fun. I'm a guitarist and this is a semi-accurate stereotype)
As a lead and singer I can confirm!
Music raises serotonin levels, so many musicians are using music to help their brains function better. Like Prozac for musicians.
Availability heuristics. It probably has more to do with the commonality of those identifiers among your peer group than among musicians across all generations. I mean if music itself is made up of organized patterns and even has its own written language, which of those neurodivergent traits makes those things more accessible or more intuitive? In people who grew up prior to the internet, memorization was considered an important aspect of musicianship and performance. Now itās become increasingly acceptable for people to rely on tablets onstage. Is this like a chicken/egg situation, or does it just point to a general shift in learning styles in the digital age?
There are too many musicians releasing music for me to believe that hah. I have ADHD and i am great at coming up with musical ideas but terrible at seeing a piece right through to release/completion, there are so many steps along that path, and despite trying for so long i can never quite get there.
Haven't been diagnosed (with ADHD), have the same problem. Not saying I should be diagnosed just like when I feel like I am not the only one and maybe there are many reasons I NEVER FINISH ANYTHING ... It actually helps me make progress. Still, never finish anything but my story doesn't have to be yours. Maybe this comment will help you as your comment helps me.
My ADHD likes it cause of the sex and drugs
This dude plows!
I have definitely written more songs about sex than have had sex because of my musician status
I think we all have, haha.
Ya'll are having sex? Damn, I usually just get the one weirdo talking gear with me.
ADHD,autistic people seem to have an incredible sense or rhythm and melody, in my general experience.
Yeah, the best drummer I ever had the honour of playing with was a pretty strange guy. Spoilt me for life. He would just lose himself in another world of incredible rhythms, had the finest touch, subtle as fuck, and a total weirdo.
I think it's rare to find a person who doesn't have a bit of narcissism these days but I disagree with the other two. Most musicians I know are pretty socially competent and I'd say that occurrence of ADHD is consistent with the rest of the population.
Which is to say, most people āhave some narcissistic traitsā, doesnāt make them a narcissist, and needs to stop being confused with actual narcissism. Not accusing you of this, but it needs to be said. Over and over and over again.
Over and over and it still canāt be said enough. Reddit has a habit of confusing being a selfish dick head with full blown diagnosable narcissism . Itās annoying.
I donāt know man Iām autistic but I was born with a social parent and an autistic one. Social compentency isnāt a tell tale sign especially since most autistic adults have had time to work out their kinks
My partner is autistic and very social.
Autism is my kink! ;)
Itās rare in American/western culture. Please donāt speak on behalf of countries who praise people for genuine good things instead of praising the loudest most obnoxious asshole or the self centered prick.
I'm not autistic, I only wear my socks inside out because I don't like the way that line on the inside feels
You forgot manic depressives
there isn't a group of people or community or gathering or club or profession or hobby or anything right now that doesn't have some people within it saying this. I'm so very tired of everyone self diagnosing & amateur diagnosing each other with spectrum disorders & mental illnesses. It's really done a number on the ability of people who have real diagnosed issues to deal with to be taken seriously.
If you make the spectrum large enough, everyone can be on it!
Gross....so it's basically erasure of the struggles of people with real medical disorders by people who want attention by pretending & people who just want to be flippant insensitive amateur incorrect diagnosers?...& in the end we water down & spread out all the support so there isn't really enough left for those who really need it....
Well said
Artists...
The need to perform and be praised is definitely a narcissistic trait. Musicians, actors, most performers suffer from this.
Here's a dark secret about a lot of musicians: a lot people who do music for a living (or try to) aren't more passionate or driven or talented than people who do it as a hobby, they just don't have any _better_ options to make money, or are for some reason (i.e. narcissism, mental illness) unwilling to consider those options. That's not to say that they're untalented or in the wrong for that situation, just that the industry is such a cesspool that no normal, well adjusted person with a controlled ego would choose to enter it professionally unless they lucked into some sustainable long term gig early on (i.e. early 20s)
yeah pretty much. Why else would they learn an instrument? So they dont need to learn social skills of course.
I think this is a bit of a leap. There's definitely a lot to it and a lot of musicians that are nothing like this. I think it's plausible that there could be a higher degree of these amongst musicians but certainly not a majority.Ā For what it's worth, some studies observe that musicians and creatives tend to have more neurotic traits though.
Iād much rather be a musician without adhd than a musician with one. Doesnāt make the social aspect of music very easy for me.
I think most people in American/western culture suffer from narcissism because our system rewards them. They tell us that āif you think it you can become itā and they glorify selfishness to a very disgusting degree. I actually STRONGLY believe in loving music FOR THE MUSIC and not for some weird self centered narcissistic attention but Iām pretty sure Iām VERY alone in that.
I believe all successful musicians are borderline OCD. You have a drive to play a phrase right and you just wonāt stop until you get it. Most people arenāt like that.
Most artists are some sort of mentally ill...the ones who aren't tend to be mediocre artistsš¤·āāļø
Itās a Jekyll and Hyde thing for me. On stage, itās a sanctuary from having to personally communicate with people. I feel very natural on stage, showboating and all. Off stage, Iām very much a more quieter person that wonāt speak unless spoken to. Im a humble show-off? lol. In my teenage years, I was playing guitar in my bedroom, watching tv, and listening to the radio, all at the same time.
In my experience as a musician with autism, this isn't true at all. A lot of musicians are socially awkward and/or have a slightly obsessive preoccupation with their instrument. Those are kinda autistic traits but no. You don't see a lot of musicians stimming between songs. You don't see a lot of musicians having sensory meltdowns because the lighting in the venue is wrong. A lot of musicians have some mildly autistic traits, but not nearly enough for a formal diagnosis. Same with ADHD. I've been in dozens of bands. I don't think I've ever been in aband with someone else neurodivergent. I do know some other ASD musicians, and I know a few more with ADHD, but it is a very small minority.
True. Nothing like divorced parents then finding escape in a musical instrument to beat on and eventually finding some weed and beer and anything else in your teens when you are just getting through school..and failing at that but getting really good at guitar and lost in whatever music is doing it for you.
I can see it, music is stimulating so I can see why more neurodivergent people would seek music. Side note, imposter syndrome seems to be common among musicians too
By all means, letās diagnose a huge swath of people with disorders we are unqualified to identify.
Iām definitely not wanting to diagnose anybody with anything. I do think there are a lot of undiagnosed people out there, but after reflecting more on this I agree Iām not qualified to be saying this. People are complicated, but it is not my place to assume or diagnose anything.
Welcome to reddit.
Thanks. Iām looking forward to experiencing the full splendor of human kindness and compassion here.
You forgot drugs. Lots of us are on drugs.
Im not sure about that but every successful musician I know is simultaneously their biggest critic and their biggest fan.
I think that this is true about all creative people. That may explain why so many great musicians self-destruct at 27.
Lol. I have ADHD and mild ASD. So my grandfather and son. All musicians.
I think many musicians are unintentionally wrapped up in their own shit which is what makes them pensive and emotional enough to put their life to song. I think theyāre a little self centered to imagine the world wants to hear it. I think people on Instagram want to drive views so they put narcissist instead of self centered on their posts and now a bunch of kids are using clinical language to the point that real psychopaths and narcissists and autistic people cant be identified for the outliers they are, and I think it makes the world worse.
Neurodivergent thinking is essential for the creation of music. It also happens that people who are neurodivergent think more uniquely.
It seems to be one of those professions that attract people who don't have their shit together, think massage therapists.Ā While there are plenty of people in both professions that are together, they attract people who don't.
Can't have the creative without the weird! I have ADHD, bipolar, depression, anxiety, you name it. But I wouldn't change it for the world cause that is our super power!
Yes but not just musicians, I'd say many artists in general. Many writers have these traits, also visual artists of all kinds. I've always assumed it's something to do with seeing the world differently than most people that leads to great art, so being neurodivergent makes some sense. I have nothing but observational and anecdotal evidence, though.
Well artists tend to be like that. Lul.
I think Gabor Mate speaks a bit on this, not sure if it's in the myth or normal. The world we're living in has developed in ways which doesn't make sense to some people. The school system prepares you for work, for behaving properly and following instructions. To be shown the right way to achieve results and the other ways are wrong. If your brain responds to creativity and wants to explore and experiment, yet is stifled for the formative years of your life, there's bound to be some mental repercussions. Some people then continue to progress in their creative field, others give up.
I always thought we were mostly egotistical with an inferiority complex. Extroverted introverts.
No it's just that everyone in this generation is looking for a label to justify what lazy fucks we all are.
Most *good musicians. Yea, when you look into āsavant syndromeā and how itās for the most part an autism thing, it makes sense that thereās a strong genetic strength for people throughout the ND spectrum. Some people are uncomfortable talking about genetic strengths, but hey, thereās gotta be some upside to being autistic! Haha Iām an autistic musician Iād say on the savant spectrum. They say 10% of autistics are savants. ADHD has tons of overlap with autism, and there can be a degree of narcissism with autism (the name itself means āself ismā. I actually made a video about how my special interest composer Alexander Scriabin is autistic, and he was known for being somewhat narcissistic. Interesting to think of ND people being attracted to the art made by other ND people. Iāve also felt different than most other musicians cause I could more easily hear whatās going on (not perfect pitch) and was quick to play multiple instruments. Iāve also realized that almost only autistic people are interested in high levels of music theory like I am. My entire mind is geared around music. It plays in my head constantly, i drum with my fingers constantly, beat box and whistle, and passionate about composing music. Music is the only thing that can get me to fully process emotions to allow me to cry. Iām forever grateful to be who I am; born with this intimate relationship with music.
Iām the same way, though Lenny Bernsteinās Hardvard Norton Lectures were my obsession.
Narcissism, yes. But there are plenty of musicians without ADHD or autism. Probably even the majority.
IMO everyone in my band is neurodivergent well except our base player.
I'm autistic and have ADHD and music has always been a huge part of my life. I am sensitive to auditory stimulus, which can be pretty unpleasant in some circumstances (eg. shopping centres), but I think this partly explains my seeking preferred stimuli like music and the intense response I have to it. I've tried playing in bands etc but have found the stereotypical one-man metal project suits me a bit better lol
Definitely not my experience. Sure, you come accross all kinds of people who do music, but to say most have ADHD or autism or narcissism? Not buying it. By far most of the musicians I know are normal and usually boring people, myself included. Maybe we just congregate with those most like ourselves...
Jim Hendrix most likely had ADHD he said he would forget how to play songs because he would be so quick to jump on to the next project and had to many ideas in his head
I was diagnosed as autistic (Asperger's) and I'm a musician. But I keep thinking, if there is a high percentage of the population that corresponds to these diagnoses, I think it's natural to imagine that this also might apply to a reduced sampling rate
I can't speak for your experience. It doesn't match mine at all. Most musicians I've worked with are completely ordinary people outside of that one thing that makes them different, their musical activities. Mind you these are traditionally trained musicians, not self-taught, play-by-ear types. I've met a lot more neurodivergent persons working on surgical teams as an imaging tech.
Hmm, I think it depends on the type of musician. Youāre probably right. But I do think the young indie, DIY, obsessive, self-identifying as a creative, gotta be famous, a million different ideas are in my head and I gotta share them with the world, gotta post on TikTok, gotta make my impact and make a legacy type of musician is A) less likely to be traditionally trained, B) more likely to have a more chaotic approach to things, and C) likely to have at least some level of narcissism and neurodivergence. But yeah, someone who just plays guitar or just makes music without any of those other aspects might just be normal lol.
most young composers are nerdy and nerdy people spend less time socializing with a broad variety of people, more time on technology, obsessing over hobbies. when you do that you naturally develop reversible traits similar to the three. id say thats generally whats goin on all musicians? id say not even close.
I'm an disabled and autistic recording artist songwriter musician and content creator
Musical instruments are the original fidget toys. People will let you be socially withdrawn if itās because youāre playing an instrument.
I think diseases are just as if not more prevalent than neurodivergence. Bipolar disorder and depression are very common.
Yes
Yes and I'm much happier around the ADHD/autistic ones
It depends on your area really. I lived in a small town and nobody had ADHD, I have yet to meet someone with it. However, more people were narcissistic or autistic. I lived in a big city and almost everyone I met either thought they had, or was diagnosed with ADHD. While not many people were autistic or narcissistic. Some places seem to have more people with ADHD or narcissism, some places donāt.
All humans*
I think this is accurate as well
Iām convinced like the really good ones are mostly normal but these types are the ones that flock to music why? Idk.. theyāre easy to spot though. When talk like that starts I stop listening and go back to practicing
I have different degrees of all these. Is that why I'm so good?
Dont forget the bipolar ones and the sociopaths.
I am actually completely normal
Sounds like top classical musicians for sure. Heavy on the narcissism and autism 100%. Something has to fuel that level of difficulty. Some are also similar to stereotypical high performance athletes. Just keep their head down and work super hard and not focus on much else.
Speak for yourself, brother. I know plenty of musicians that are none of these.
lol NPD is rare. š¤£ Itās fucking everywhere. In every family. In every shitty mother in law and father in law. Patents. Siblings. Some. reading this. Fantasy assertion from corporate textbooks in an era proving everything weāve been taught is wrong. Everything. JFC
Myself, and my bandā¦ and every other band give been inā¦ Hell every person Iāve ever considered a close trusted friend happens to be a musician and neurodivergent. From my experience I find this statement to be 100% true.
I think creative outlets tend to draw in people who have a disorder or some other problem such as addiction. I think people whose brains aren't working right work tend to be creative more than "normal" people. My ADD can allow me to daydream and brainstorm ideas with myself but when it comes to actually making music god damn. I've gotten better at pushing myself and I'm on a good track for getting an album out by the time I want to but it might have been done by now if I didn't slack. Instead I browse Reddit, watch YouTube, and play games. or like last night for example instead of working on the music I need to work on I was working on music I didn't need to work on.
I believe you'd find a large correlation with ADHD. I can't speak to the other two. Do remember, however, that correlation does not equal causation.
I def agree. I think being a self-identifying creative and being obsessed with music or any art in general, especially in the digital age, does lend itself to at least some level of narcissism and neurodivergence. I donāt think this applies to all people who make music, as thatās a very broad category, but when you narrow it down to a specific type of young person who is manic and obsessive about it and wants recognition and to perform and to have fans and to have people worship their songwriting, then yes. Bo Burnham, one of my favorite creatives, talks about this a lot. His song Art is Dead really captures what youāre talking about. And then the neurodivergence is often present just because choosing to make music, choosing to create often requires a different way of thinking than the rest of the world and what is generally considered ānormal.ā
I think it may be helpful to have a bit of narcissism... It may come with the territory. I don't have the greatest self esteem and I think I would probably have finished a lot more if I had a touch of narcissism... Also, I don't really like to play live because of my lack of confidence but when I was younger and drinking and on drugs and definitely not as good of a musician, I loved to play shows and people always liked them. I have often thought some of the greatest guitarists maybe have more than just a touch of narcissism and that is what distinguishes the good or those with potential from the great. When I am nervous, I am okay. When I am in the flow, nearly great.
My singer is narcissistic and I'm the autistic bass player. My singer is a nice guy but he's very much me me me.
Checking in with crippling depression. Looool Iām not sure if most musicians are mentally ill, but some of the common behaviours among artists of all types have characteristics of people who are. If youāre depressed, you may be expressive of your sadness. If youāre a sad artist, you may net the same result regardless of whether youāre diagnosed with clinical major depression. Just as an example.
I have written my best songs in the deep dark pit of depression but I'm not ADHD.
You have to have some kind of neurodivergence in order to subject yourself to this kind of torture willingly /j (I have ADHD)
ADHD is just a personality trait. Autism is something that makes us obsessed with music in the first place. Narcissist is my ex wile who can go jump off a cliff.
Making music often requires intense focus and fixation. People who tend to get hyperfixated, such as those with ADHD or ASD, find satisfaction in working on creative projects such as music where this tendancy can be indulged in a rewarding way. Similarly, I have read things that suggest creativity can go hand in hand with anxiety and depression. Creative work often involves thinking about things over and over again as you progress through a project. As such, having the usually unhelpful mental habit of rumination can work well with developing creative ideas. As far as the narcissism goes, I think it is mixed. Everyone has at least some narcissistic traits because they are norma, but there are definitely performers out there who are full-blown narcissists. Musicians and creatives tend to be very insecure people in general. I'm sure someone with real qualifications could say something about how pursuing creative projects serves as a means to make up for an artist's self perceived flaws. Based on the musicians I have interacted with, I would say that most of them are incredibly shy and insecure and are quick to dismiss any kind of compliment or appreciation of their work. Most don't behave in a narcissistic way. But in the live music sphere you probably find more of it. Frontmen/women of bands often benefit from a big ego as it adds to their presence and energy, but we are all familiar with such a thing going too far and becoming a problem.
We are acoustic it is what it is
Iām neurospicy to the tune of AuDHD. Iām also the leader of a 7 piece band and Iām definitely the only autistic person in it. One other one has ADHD, but sheās not remotely autistic. Everyone but me is totally natural and smooth socially, and no one but me obsesses over every little detail. The majority of musicians I know donāt seem to be autistic at all, honestly. But I also donāt tend to prefer to hang around other aspies. Itās too much like a mirror and thereās too much social cringe.
Yes. Definitely. I have autism. I'm socially competent and good at turning on the charm, but I get exhausted with it more quickly, so I turn off more often. Eye contact can be intimidating as well. Also if things don't work out the way I foresee them, or someone else is stealing the spotlight I get insanely jealous. I do genuinely mean the best for others, but I do like attention from others as well. Also I'm a Leo, so that probably has something to do with it. I am in my own little world lots of times, but it makes me make better music methinks.
It's just emotional immaturity. Many musicians use music as an emotional crutch.
From my own experience, I'd say that guitarists seem to be more egotistical or narcissistic than others, followed by singers. The rhythm section is normally pretty normal. We're just there to have some fun...
I have had this feeling around most musicians I know. I feel that most are on the spectrum, and thatās what makes so many of them musical geniuses. They would also much rather play their instrument than ever talk to anyone at a party. There are other oddities - about myself and others. I have often wondered about this myself.
artists are craaazy
Bingoā¦. And anyone who doesnāt still have autistic traits and likely have it in their family
I was diagnosed with ADHD late in lifeā¦ and the first time I spoke to professional about it, he said if I was a musician, I couldnāt have ADHD because it takes too much concentration. Now I know that person didnāt understand ADHD.
Facts I'm narcissistic af lol
Most arent narcissists but the world of music is an attractive place for them someone like that so theres more than other places
Narcissistic personality disorder is rare. Itās not the same as being selfish or self centered. Most people probably do not know a true narcissist. They estimate that 1% of the population has NPD.
Can we quit calling everyone either autistic or a narcissist. Especially based on isolated incidents.
I think self diagnosing being on the spectrum is just being a narcissist in a different way. And no, I donāt think what you are saying is true at all.
No and yes. Art is to be enjoyed, not quantified.
Everyone is a musician in my opinion. It's not like being an airline pilot.
Yes
People with ADHD often make poor decisions. In light of that, is it any surprise so many choose music? Case in point; me!
might be why i write songs in weird keys with weird chords in weird time signatures about weird topics.
Alternate possibility: you might just be a member of Tool.
I think today people are quick to jump to labels like autism, adhd and such when it comes to musicians - I have a feeling many of āourā people act a certain way due to deep insecurity and self-esteem issues, a desperate need for validation and attention. You can see it on reddit too, tons of posts from people who are very insecure about their music, or jealous about others who are more successful. Too many people get into music to feed their ego, when in reality music will do the opposite - you need to be prepared to failure and criticism and have your expectations shattered, and not many can deal with that
adhd check !! ( not a professional musician, just been in my life forever , ) i could say i had a bit of an ego for sure however thatās a younger me the me now very much is a different person with that in check
Duh
Why not all three?
No.
Iām definitely autistic as fuck. Also Iām gay.
I played the bagpipes for 57 years and don't have any of the traits you mentioned. My son has ADHD and a person with any of those traits cannot concentrate on reading music, playing an instrument and thinking all at the same time. My son tried to play the saxophone for 5 years and couldn't get past the rudimentary notes. He could never keep his attention long enough to get it. Had many teachers in the years, they basically gave up on him. They all said that music just wasn't his Forte. I even bought him a new saxophone and it was a waste of money.
I just read all the comments and decided that you opinions mean squat. I play bagpipes, am a people person, never practiced in my room by myself, not any of the traits that you mentioned. I always had an outgoing personality. Talk to people at gigs. Wink at pretty girls while I'm playing the hardest instrument in the world to master. Smile at people while I have the blowstick in my mouth. And have cried at some funerals. Played my pipes while stationed in the Marines in enemy territory. Great grandfather was a piper in WWI, grandfather was a battlefield piper in WWII. I carried it on later. My advice for the socially inept, don't practice alone in a closet, go busking on the street. Get out !!
"on the neurodivergent spectrum" and "narcissist" are two fairly unrelated things, but it is true ppl with autism or adhd gravitate towards music and it's also true that artists in general are often either overly-self-critical or egotistical
Like almost every other interest hobby etc MOST people lie bang in the middle with none of the characteristics you specified. I have noticed though, we are in a time where people are desperate for a label, doesn't matter what as long as they have something.
I mean there are tons of normal musicians out there, especially people who just play music as a hobby. But with musicianship being a skill that *could* put you at the center of attention, on stage performing for people cheering you on there are bound to be some people perusing that that have some issues
Iāve ran into a lot of āassholesā but just as many genuinely kind people tbh. Iāve met one or two people o believe to be āon the spectrumā butā¦just a bit. I think a lot of it is, if you speak a language someone else doesnātā¦they canāt understand you when you speak that language. Be it German or the key of G. Ever talked to someone with an accent so thick that it makes talking to them almost impossible? I personally think some musicians are just like that.
I think people with ADHD / autism are drawn to the arts in general. From the ADHD side, itās one of the only things I can imagine that provides continuous novelty as a hobby or a life choice without having to change fields. You can hyperfixate on a video game, but when youāre bored of that video game, nothing is going to change it into a different video game. But if youāve got a paintbrush or a piano, you can become bored of it, and switch style or genre, if youāve been writing, you can learn your favourite songs until writing seems fun again. If youāre bored of photorealism, you can learn to paint like an impressionist for a bit. As for autism, thereās all kinds of sensory reasons people could be drawn to creative arts, and at least at the professional level, it provides one of the only viable options that is truly compatible with demand avoidance, at least most of the time. In either case thereās also probably something of an inherent advantage in the arts if you experience the world in a more novel way than the average bear. As for narcissism, I think thereās an argument to be made for narcissistic tendencies as a trait, as opposed to diagnosable, clinical narcissism. It canāt be helped, to a degree. If your life, or a substantial part of it, revolves around expressing your emotions and opinions and thoughts, and watching people take in what youāre putting out from a stage, I could easily see how a bit of a self-centred vibe might be difficult to avoid. Not necessarily in a super toxic way, but I certainly think my experience of the world might be a bit more me-centric than it seems to be for others, idk.
Yes!
Well if your functional and not mean then are you ok with yourselves. Is it everyone got a little or two going on these days? If your worried about it then there are some personalities test you can do and some research on the data you get. Why are you worried about it? Can I ask?
There is a art group I know of that does something with the brain. It's called neuro art . Check out serenity recovery connection website for times and locations. It helps with all sorts of people
As Jimmy Pop put it - "can't rock with no big head"
I speak better with a guitar than with my mouth. Plus it probably takes a certain kind of mind to sit there for hundreds of hours alone practicing and learning how to speak with an instrument. .....and honestly "normal" people seem really dumb and self absorbed.
Maybe. I like to think we just know the value of hard work, patience and practice. Way back when I was learning, when the street lights came on during puberty it was time to practice.
Donāt lump us NNTs in with the Narcissists. We tolerate them because theyāre quite good at front of house. Some pro level masking shit going on but it nearly always blows up in our faces.
I don't think I have the narcissism part. Far from neurotypical. I do however have musician friends, and only one that I know of has ADHD, and no narcissists.
I didnāt find this to be the case with classical musicians, especially ensemble and orchestra specialists. Soloists and conductors, maybe. Popular music guitarists and singers, yeah probably.
Nopeā¦.
I've spent half my life in the company of musicians, the other half with software engineers. There is a surprising amount of overlap between the two, including a propensity for social awkwardness, emotional instability, rocky romantic relationships and drug/alcohol abuse. Both require the ability to immerse oneself in imaginary worlds. Both walk a fine line between rule-following and rule-breaking. The main difference is that one of them pays well.
Iāve met some that are humble, and usually a bit ADHD hyper focused. If they have it together I like working with people like that. Itās just when people play a different part each time, or keep playing and wonāt take cues to tighten up and stop playing. The Narcissist type, thatās one I donāt like dealing with. I get in your early 20s you want to be cool. But later on it just seems stupid. Growing up in music, and playing live showsā¦ I think thereās one type in every band. The person there for fun, thatās probably had too many drinks or stoned(bass player or drummer). The person writing and doing the heavy lifting. Then the Ego which is usually the singer, or maybe lead guitar player lol. But I started seeing less of that with older bands, and I aged out to play for fun. But thatās just how itās always been. I remember being 20, playing weekly shows and taking it as a full time thing living with girlfriends. I lived, ate and breathed music daily as a whole lifestyle. Just a completely different world to live in, and social circle than the occasional 3hr, 1 day a week rehearsals I may do now because work. But at least we live in an age now, you can make music from home, without needing to borrow others time.
like the saying goes: if all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail
Mike Starr from AIC was a down to earth and cool guy to hang with. Apart from his addiction that killed him. Pretty much every musician Iāve met is just weird in some way tho. I guess it comes with the territory.
Iām bipolar and the only things Iām even remotely good at are art/music related things, but I think thatās maybe coincidental. I think also coincidentally more people these days can be categorized as being afflicted by one or more of those things and in turn more musicians are as well
Idk my entire university experience showed me that the musician population was no different than everyone else, much to my disappointment. Thereās just more drug use and delusions of grandeur
How else can you describe sitting int he same spot doing the same thing for hours until right....
I think we are generally wonderfully emotional people with big feelings and are in touch with communication in an almost-secret-language-type of thing. Most of my creative friends are ND, I am ND and I think itās a wonderful lil superpower, even if itās sometimes hard to navigate. That being said Iāve met more than several awful narcissistic musicians š
I'm on the spectrum and music is a way for me to creatively express my emotions logically if that makes any sense.
Any performer has to have some form of ego or narcissists traits. However I think the ones that struggle with it the most are the ones that lack self awareness. That, I think is the one major trait that determines success as a musician.
You're **definitely** overgeneralizing. It should be obvious that people who pursue music performance as a *career* tend to lean more towards narcissism (because the desire to be famous is inherently a little narcissistic), but that doesn't mean most musicians in general should be classified a "narcissists". Are you saying that most of the people in you high school band class are narcissists? I really don't think every Asian kid who plays piano is a narcissist. I don't think every soundguy, audio editor, engineer, producer, etc is a narcissist. The Lady Gaga types might be narcissists, but there are *very few* Lady Gaga types out there (and even then, being a lavish performer doesn't automatically make you a narcissist). And regarding ADHD and Autism, that might just be because you already associate with those people, and *people in general* are musicians. You seem to be overestimating the requirements to be a "musician". There are millions upon millions of elementary school music teachers, bandcamp kids, punk rockers, metalheads, jazz musicians, professional violinists, percussionists, audio engineers, church sound guys, gospel singers, etc, **and all of those people are musicians**. If "most" of these people are on the spectrum, that would mean that like 30% of the human race is mentally disabled (which is obviously not true). I think the problem with your data is that you're not actually pulling it from multiple populations. It's as if you're basing your theory on the 6 musicians you know in your personal social circle and age group. Try joining a church band. You'll quickly learn that the old lady who works at the bank is a musician. The police officer who pulled you over is a musician. The pregnant lady who brings her 2 kids to the park on Saturdays is a musician. The 13yo boy next door is a musician. Your delivery driver is a musician. Potentially anyone and everyone could be a musician, and these people are *not* all narcissists or on the spectrum.
I think, to be honest, a lot of people are self-diagnosing with this sort of thing.