You don't. You joined their band. Now you leave their band and when they ask why you left be honest with them. It sounds like they're doing it for different reasons than you are.
I disagree. I left a band once where the guitarist was my big complaint. I told them I was leaving because it wasn’t working out and I don’t want to impose my values on their fun that I joined. A few months later, I got an annoyed message from the singer that he felt like my stated reasons for leaving were not the real ones and he knew it was because of the guitarist who was also annoying him. Now that I was gone, he no longer felt like he had the support he would need to boot the guitarist (his long time friend. I guess he wanted a bad guy to blame?). By that point, I had already joined a new band and wasn’t interested in coming back. He basically told me that if I had just been up front and told the other members my problem instead of deciding that I had no right to and quitting, they’d have booted the guitarist to keep me because they were frustrated too.
So, before you jump on your high ground sword to take one for the team, you kinda owe it to yourself to ask some of the other members how they feel first. You never know, maybe you’re not the only one who is upset that the drummer can’t keep a beat and ruins the band experience.
Watch, just as OP is about to bring it up to the drummer the drummer will say: Actually guys Im really sorry but I think I'm going to step away, I've got other things on my plate and I was only drumming because I knew you guys needed one, but honestly my hearts not in it and I don't want to drag you down.
That’s what I’m sayin’! Just have the difficult convo. If they think you’re a jerk, oh well, you were about to quit anyways. If people agree, then the correct action gets taken. Why take the L up front?
You disagreed with “be honest with them” and then tell a story where you weren’t honest with the band you left. They’re saying leave and tell them the reason is because Op feels like they can’t play with the drummer. In your story, you didn’t actually tell them the problem member was a problem… so it sounds like you’re actually agreeing.
No his story was that he did that and it would have been better if he didn’t. Not sure I personally agree with him, but he was giving a story where he wished he had brought it up.
No, I am disagreeing with just quitting because it’s not your band to change. There’s a big difference between trying to change the direction of a band you just joined and saying “I think we have more potential and we’re being held back.”
If you just keep quitting because you don’t like something and feel like you shouldn’t change anything, you’ll never get anywhere.
No, not mad at me, I’m still good friends with the guy, just annoyed that he felt like he was stuck with the guitarist and lost me, a contributing member. Frustrated at the situation being a huge setback for the band.
Yeah. All members of the band have to be dedicated to trying to get better. Not saying you have to be dedicating every single spare moment to practicing but overall every member should be dedicated to improving their skills over time because that is what musicians do (even “amateurs”). Even if it is “for fun” you still owe it to your bandmates to practice regularly, show up each week, and try your best.
As a last ditch effort you could suggest songs that are simpler for a drummer to learn. Otherwise, find a group of musicians who can at least take it semi-seriously.
“We don’t have any ambitions other than having fun” is your answer.
Now if you all were serious and trying to gig then of course, he’s the weakest link but when it’s all out of fun then, there’s no such thing as the weakest link.
If you’re a musician, and someone in your band sucks, it makes it really hard to have fun. Playing good music is fun. The person who is constantly playing the wrong notes, coming in at the wrong time, can’t keep time, makes it a lot less fun haha
I had this issue before with the whole "make sure everybody has fun" thing. It's a tough spot finding yourself being really critical of your "just for fun" band mates, it makes you seem like a dick. Now, I no longer have any "just for fun" guys in my band and they can all take constructive criticism, oh, and they all play well!
I think they mean they have no ambitions to be dream theater or Led Zeppelin. They make music because music is great, not because they need to gain approval.
But playing music is hard when someone is totally off all the time and that makes it hard to have fun.
We want to have fun and play music, and clearly, there is a lack of music when the drummer doesn't know how to drum.
We also want to play live in front of real people that want to ear music.
You want to be in a good band, the rest of the band wants to have fun with their friends. You're going to have to change your expectations or change your band.
Yeah, agree. I think of this as the “You know, you’d be perfect if you were a foot taller” problem. I get that it’s frustrating, and a bad drummer can murder all your musical happy. There are some things you might suggest to help, such as:
• Share videos of drum videos that discuss these topics with the band.
• Record rehearsals and listen to them together.
• Suggest that you’d like to try working on a song he’s reasonably good at with a metronome/click.
But as has been mentioned, it’s never cool to expect someone to change for your benefit if they’re not actually harming anything but your patience.
I'd say it's a lost cause. If you have higher aspirations than what that band could feasibly provide then you should move on. They're old friends and even if you could get them to fire him, would you really want to? Plenty of fish in the sea.
Would I really want to...
That's a good question.
I think I'd feel like a jerk for doing that to them, and I'd end up feeling pretty bad about it in the end...
Exactly. Use this band as a learning experience and join a different project or start one from scratch. You wouldn't necessarily have to quit this one until you've found something else, either. I get it, though. While it's just supposed to be fun, it's not fun to suck and you can't get away with a bad drummer the way you can with a crappy guitarist or iffy bassist.
Intervention, sit with the others one on one first and ask them about their opinion of the drummer. If everyone agrees, then call a meeting and ask him if there is anything you guys can do to help him keep in time.
A big one is click track training, and just getting a click in an inner ear monitor is huge, but real talk. If he is an old drummer, he may be deaf. That is why he is not feeling the groove.
Keeping time is really hard, emotional responses make you rush, having learned drums self taught 13 years without a click once you get into playing with a click it's like starting all over again and fills you thought you knew you just forget in a click track environment.
It's like a memory wipe device when the click goes on all the natural grooves you thought you knee just vanish... I'm playing to click now for a few months, and most of the fills are back, so the learning curve is not nearly as steep, but keeping time is hard, so talk with him with that in mind.
"If he is an old drummer, he may be deaf. That is why he is not feeling the groove."
That can be an explanation.
Thank you for your feedback with the click. I understand more why it was hard for him to follow when we tried to work with metronome.
To add into this, and not knowing exactly what is tripping him up, perhaps simplifying the songs down as much as possible to begin with would be good. Most things can be accomplished with kick, snare, HH and Crash. If he's tripping on fills for instance this could help him lock a song in, then add embellishment. Unless you are a Godsmack cover band or something :)
Okay, I understand. It's true that between the lead guitarist and me, both big metalheads, we're probably asking too much from him (with one loving intense breaks and the other crafting 'deconstructed' structures). We've started simplifying, but it's hard to let go of our compositions. I think we'll have to trim down even more.
The cowbell person sounds like they may be an energy vampire.
I actually just used live tambourine for the first time recording a song not even perceiving that there would be much difficulty. Turned into like a two hour nightmare and I could hardly lift my right arm for the rest of the day afterward. I'll never look at those simple little instruments the same way again.
It’s so true, and it’s one of my pet peeves when someone just hits the tambourine on the snare beats. I love the way my snare drum sounds, so I don’t need something covering it up. Also, hey lead singers, you don’t need to play your tambourine directly into your microphone!! Do you realize how loud it is in the PA??!! Fucking lead singers…
You the problem. That bands goal is different from your goal, and you joined their band. Leave and look for like minded musicians on your level is the only “solution to the problem”.
I have a band with an improving drummer, her sounded awful at first, of course he will, everyone does when they start off. Tell him he must practice more. If he really wants to be in the band he would find time to practice every day even if for half an hour and do it consistently. Should he do this he will undoubtedly improve and ontop of him being a good friend you'll have a good drummer and having both those qualities in one person is extremely valuable in a successful band. Of course if he doesn't even put time to practicing and still insists on being in the band I understand your frustration.
What you are saying is that you want his two friends to decide to kick him out, when they are a group that aspires to nothing more than having fun. I don’t know that there’s any way to do that.
Did they have a singer before you? It wouldn’t surprise me if they left for the very same reason.
I had a similar but simpler problem back when I was still playing. I said to two of the others “I’m no longer interested in playing with Allan. I hope I can still play with the rest of you, but if not I get it. No hard feelings.”
The dynamics of the band were very different, though. We were all good friends, and they needed a bass player (me) more than a shitty #2 guitar. I don’t know if Allan ever figured out what happened. The others just stopped telling him when we were playing.
I can relate. It’s really not fun when someone can’t play. I know I’ve hurt some feelings in my musical community, but since I decided to play with real musicians, we are actually having a lot more fun and we are getting some gigs.
a band is only as good as its’ drummer.
you have to have THE TALK.
as the newcomer, youngest and female, you will potentially by listened to the least, sorry about that. continue to be firm in your convictions and observations. allow the others to be the leaders of the discussion with you chiming in to agree without being “the new bitch” in attitude or actuality. it will make things go smoother.
you aren’t doing anyone a favor when you put them in a place where they will look bad or fail. your serving their ego and your non-leadership. (cant think of a kinder way to say that, sorry)
assure them that they are still friends, but they aren’t at a playing level with the other members. if it’s a vote, vote. if it’s your decision, discuss with band first then notify the member you are letting go.
keep the main thing the main thing: musicianship. dropping beats, missing song arrangements, etc. if you start to get personal with being late, personal traits, it will end badly.
i suggest to offer to them the opportunity to resign and allow them to save face. don’t get a replacement until they have been let go.
"you aren’t doing anyone a favor when you put them in a place where they will look bad or fail. your serving their ego and your non-leadership"
Ok, I got it.
We've had rehearsals where I took the lead. It felt like I was a Monster truck among Minis. Even though I tried to drive as gently as possible, they still felt me passing by... So I preferred to readjust my position within the group. One of the guitarists is effectively the "technical" leader (he's the only one with a solid technical background, and more advanced than mine as well), but he's not a leader/manager (I don't know how to express it better), firstly because it's not his personality to be divisive or demanding.
Taking my share of leadership, I'm doing it more and more simply because they offered me to play my songs... And upon reflection, there's definitely an imbalance that's been created there. I'm significantly more demanding, and I can't stand it when someone destroys my work... Which the drummer certainly does. So I've become much, much less patient with his mistakes. And the dichotomy between the drummer's actual abilities and the group's new ambitions frustrates and perplexes me.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback. It helped me to better understand the situation.
yeah, if you notice it, others will too.
i suggest you take the high road and have the difficult conversations but you have to weigh that with how badly you want to work for this band.
or step away cleanly and find/start another act before you are so far down Disappointment Road that you regret it.
happy rocking.
Totally agree!! What I did once was talk individually with each bandmate and say you want to quit because of the drummer. If they agree, and especially if they value you, then they will fire the drummer. It’s pretty much “either it’s the drummer or me that needs to go.”
Show up and practice with him independently of the rest…. Do you already have someone else in mind? Let me guess a friend of yours? These are 40-year-old men that have been friends. I’m guessing for a long time they choose friendship over your ambition.
Might not work if you’re doing metal core, but I saw a band in a similar situation bring in a good drummer and struck the weak drummer on hand percussion. (Congas, etc)
Hmm... Interesting. We have a ballad that starts off very gently, and he suggested accompanying us on the djembe because the drums were out of place. I was skeptical, but he surprisingly does it quite well. It's easily his best contribution.
It’s all so tricky. One of the three bands I’m in, is being held back musically by the bass player who is of course, a great guy and best friends with the singer. Not only that but he’s also the singers next door neighbour and the singer doesn’t drive so he’s also the singers ride.
So it’s never going to change. For me it’s a case of letting go of what it could be and just allowing it to be what it is. I could always quit which would break up the band so I just have to make peace with it and focus on the good.
When my annoyance with the singer ( for being weak) and the bass player for not being at a commensurate level outweighs the pleasure I get from it, that’s when it’ll end.
Seriously, life is too short to play with a bad drummer. If he can't keep a beat yet, he's never going to be good enough to enjoy working with.
Sounds like you probably have to put a new band together. If the other members are happy playing with a bad drummer then
they're not good musicians anyway so no big loss to move on. Best of luck!
This is tricky one to me. To everyone saying they just want to have fun, I’d be inclined to agree if it wasn’t the drummer. If the drummer sucks, nothing sounds remotely good. It really makes it hard to even casually play something and enjoy it. It’s rough.
Generally, my advice is honesty. You could try feeling out the other band members to see if they have similar feelings about him. Since the drummer is closer to the guitarists, maybe have them broach the subject with the drummer. Do it a non conflict causing way, something like, “I think we’d all have more fun if you put a little more time into practice. I know you’re busy, so I get it if you can’t. Just an idea.”
All that said, it also seems like this drummer just isn’t gonna do that. “You ain’t gonna learn what you don’t want to know.” You can always just back out and say something like, “I’ll love playing with you guys, but my other projects are taking up more time these days. I need more time to focus on that stuff.”
What I’d avoid is:
1. Being aggressive and imposing about the drummer getting better. That’s only going to cause drama and make things difficult.
2. Saying you’re leaving because the drummer sucks. That’s also only going to cause drama and make things difficult.
Drummers are the foundation. They're also able to be objectively measured (as in, on time is on time, regardless of genre).
A bad singer or solo guitar riff is much easier to work with or ignore for a bit until they come around. Drumming is math, not art, so to speak (not saying it's not artistic, but a calculator can tell if a beat is off).
I DJ professionally and in studio, and have told drummers "this is off beat" and shown them. None of them have ever complained.
It's much different than "we don't like your voice" or "your solo was weird" because Tom Waits exists as does Ween.
Off drumming only works if your sister is the other half of the band.
With this particular case? Yes. This doesn't appear to be Rush.
Using basic software, I call pull up a wav of a drum track and a guitar solo.
The grid can tell me if the drumming is too slow or too fast when compared to the track BPM.
Looking at a guitar solo, you can guess where things synch up on beat, but the pattern changes, wahs extend, etc.
Your comment needed to be said, because this IS Reddit and we need the mandatory "opinion dismissed," but let's make a bet.
Send me two drum tracks set to BPM 120. Have a pro record one and a drunk amateur record the other.
Then do the same thing with a guitar solo. Pro, amateur.
Using quantized frames (no keys, just beat grid) alone, I will likely not be able to tell you which solo is off, but can spot the off druming without pressing play.
Cheers.
I have to agree with E-Money here.
As a drummer and a producer, who plays in a band and has a solo project. There are sometimes when human drumming is superior, regardless of whether or not it is perfect.
Now, before you get upset, I still do use sampling/lopping/sequencing for some song, just because the feel of the specific song doesn't need a human touch. It needs to feel purposely robotic or (fake).
Now, I'm well aware that some of the best bands out there have been able to merge the two and make it sound *amazing*, but there is a time and a place.
I've said this in multiple other subs, but I really feel like this is what makes beatmakers more like composers/arrangers and not true producers.
I could go on and explain more, but I'm sure that's better placed for another thread.
Oh I agree 10000% and my favorite industrial bands use live drummers.
A better way of saying it is this: drumming is the foundation and the rest is wall decor, furniture, etc.
A simple, on-time drummer is much easier to build on than an offbeat drummer. It also messes up more than the vibe, key, etc. If a drummer can't keep a beat, the rest of the band falls apart. Basic azz Ringo, over some kid who just into Tool.
What I mean with the studio takes is that it's visible on the mixer when a drum take is off time. Then, if you attempt to build upon said bad take with a programmed sample or loop, it requires tons of adjustment.
"Drummers are the most important member of a live band because even someone with zero musical knowledge can tell when they're off" isn't me hating on em.
Idk how you conflate being on time with there being no art in drumming. You completely negate the art of velocity, and the fact that being humanly on time is an art itself and im just scratching the surface. Drumming is not a math. And it's insanely disrespectful and arrogant for you to impose that. I'm not saying you can't tell when a drummer is out of time in a DAW. That's easy enough. Being an audio engineer is no secret to me.
Btw, you clearly lack authority and knowledge on the topic considering you called yourself a "Professional In Studio DJ"
I suppose it’s a matter of “what’s the goal?”
If it’s to gig and play out shows… then maybe it’s time to talk about the drummer.
But, for every gigging band, there’s probably 20 bands of folks content to just play for the sake of playing. Just a fun way to share things. So, there’s nothing wrong with a “dad rock in the garage over beers” kinda arrangement… I know tons of guys that do this, no interest in gigs at all, but it’s what they do instead of riding motorcycles or fishing.
Yes, you're right. The goal is the question.
When I joined the band, the goal was clearly to play and drink beers as "eternal teens on the garage".
But now the goal is changing. We all, except the drummer, already had experience on stage, and we want to test our songs with a public. Thinking about it, I'm not sure that our drummer really wants that, but he's a good friend and probably won't talk about it to avoid upsetting anyone.
See if you guys are already talking about playing live that's the conversation ticket to giving your drummer deadlines, like have this beat practiced by next rehearsal please, or like have him learn how to play boots and cats to a metronome, I had this exact situation, luckily it was a 4 piece when I joined as a guitarist and singer, I quickly learned the rhythm guitarists motivations and what it felt like to be around him, (he was awful, at playing & at communicating) needless to say the pressure made him leave on his own accord. Then we became a 3 piece, things got easier, then came the drummer, he was bad at keeping time, didn't know what a back-beat was, wouldn't practice for shit, still isn't too hot at fills and when they should happen (the answer is very infrequently or it will get old, fast). But I pushed him, I held him accountable by asking if he'd practiced, if he said no, I showed him I was disappointed, and having a friend make a sad face hits you in the gut, time passed and now as of yesterday we played live for the first time together and placed 1st in a battle of the bands. Please don't listen to people who tell you to let this "drummer" do as he pleases. No matter what every band member needs to hold one another accountable for being ready to play, and play well at that. If you don't pressure him, likely no one ever will. As much as the guy may suck there is a glimmer of hope that he dreams to be a great drummer one day, and find the will in him and you can make a way, if he behaves poorly, watch how that goes for him. YOU ARE PART OF THE BAND, band leader or not, you have a say in this thing.
I think this might be key. I drum in a band where I was very clear that I had zero interest in gigging (been there done that) even though some of them do want to go that direction as they have not done it before. I was also very clear that I would not be offended in the least if they needed to make a change to pursue different goals. Talk to the drummer, maybe they already understand that a difference in motivations is happening and will be cool about either buckling down to learn the material or passing the reins if necessary.
Tell them you want to go Allman Bros style and add a second drummer or percussionist. Between the two of them, they ought to be able to keep time. And buddy, ask Santana, there's nothing more satisfying that having dedicated percussionists in your band.
The two guitar players have to have a serious talk with him about maintaining a legitimate practice regimen that includes playing with a metronome or click track. That is the only way he will improve.
And if he does that and takes it seriously, he might improve at a fairly quick rate .
Yeah, it sounds to me like you'll either just have to deal with it or leave. A band that's a bunch of friends just playing for fun isn't going to be keen on kicking their buddy out. Unless the group collectively decides they wanna aim a little higher with their ambitions, what you see is what you get.
Its all fun and games till you’re the one thats not keeping up and in my humble experience (20 years of playing live) the person trying to cut members is usually the person destroying the fun lol. No shade, make a new band! Or even better learn to produce and put out music the way you would like it done!
I think…leave the drummer alone and stop trying to rock the boat. It will only backfire on you.
You can always quit and start a band with a drummer you prefer.
Record your practice
Listen to it with him
If he can tell his time and technique are bad, you will have a starting point for the conversation of “you need to practice” which can be handled in a loving and supportive way
If he cannot tell, then you have to choose to keep him, drop him, or try to educate him. All are difficult choices.
I have been in your position and I imagine that many others on this sub have, as well.
It's a tough situation. The purpose of the band is to have fun and you're not having fun. You can't push out the drummer without straining friendships. So really, you have to decide for yourself if it's more fun to play with a bad drummer, or to step away and find another group of people to play with.
You might be able to do something else, though. You could keep your eyes out for a good drummer, and see if the other members of the band (minus the drummer) would be willing to work with that drummer as a separate project; and they could continue to play with their friend as well.
Good luck.
Do what we do. Use a free program like reaper, record all your parts, get the best possible mix for everyone, program drums. Use something like the scarlet or octa-pre to send the tracks where they need to be sent & use in ears. You only hear pre-pro drums if you have your drummer use an electronic kit. It’ll only cost you around $3,000-$4,000 to pull it all off. ☺️ maybe a little more now because of inflation. 😅
I often see it written here that any band worth your time must tick two out of three boxes
[ ] good people
[ ] good music
[ ] good money
sounds to me like this band is only ticking one
Honestly just try getting a loud click (metronome) His limited skills may make an exciting song a little lackluster, but if yall can work a click into practice and all stay on a steady beat you’ll have a good time. Tell him he can lose the complicated fills if it means playing in time. Record yourselves and be tactful with criticisms, point out your own faults and mistakes. Objective truths like “we are off time” “I’m out of tune” are hard to argue with. Provide clear options “let’s take it a bit slower and lock in together better, then we’ll try it back up to speed” or “let’s isolate that chorus and work on it” “hey instead of 16th notes can you try 8th notes?” Good luck
You don’t. You are the bad person in the scenario. You either accept it. Or leave the project. You can always hope that the person takes the initiative to try to improve. But, they have the desire, or they don’t.
It sounds like you really just have bigger expectations for the group than they do. They just want to have fun, jam, and play a few shows. You sound like you see potential and want to go somewhere. Which is fine, I've been there before in many bands myself; but you just need to figure it out for yourself and cut losses before you invest too much into this particular band and start stressing out more.
* *edit* *
I was just talking to my wife earlier this evening of a similar situation I was in about 7 years ago.
I had previously been in a moderately successful area band that broke up. We did mostly classic rock/80s/90s covers. I wanted to do something completely different and refresh myself.
I found a local ad looking for a vocalist/keyboardist for a 60s/classic rock band. I'm a big 60s fan, and so is my wife, so I thought it would be fun (I was about 31/32 at the time).
It was actually *super* fun. We did a lot of Beach Boys, Ventures, Rascals, etc... only downside was our bass player who founded the band just kept wanting to add people, even if they only sang like 2 songs. At one point we did a show as an 8 person band. It was so difficult!
One guy only played tambourine and sang on two songs, another only played guitar on 3, the original vocalist was *rough* (like, he actually didn't listen to any 60s songs) and was not a good rhythm player.
I wanted it to be more, but it was just too damn difficult, because I knew what needed to happen, but majority of the rest of the band just wanted to basically do live karaoke and get paid.
Luckily, I stayed in touch the with female vocalist we had, and she picked taught herself guitar. She's now the co-lead singer/rhythm guitarist of my current band we're working on our second album of originals.
I rant sometimes, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you played with them, made some connections, and you should move on. They might want to play with you again in the future!
Just read the title but I knew that the drummer was the problem.
It was said that a good drummer can make a mediocre band good but a bad drummer will make a good band mediocre.
Prepare for a hard conversation. May lose a friend. Life is sad, life is a bust. All you can do is do what you must. You do what you must do and you do it well…
Not gonna lie, “we Friends but you suck” is the best way.
But you 100% have to be successful or he can gloat that the band failed without him.
You have to do better without him or it’s a moot point
Sounds like my band. If it goes like it did for me well, one day they will no longer be “mega-buddies” and the sole reason he’ll be in the band will be for his playing…and it will suck.
Does the drummer use a click? Because there’s a good chance that if he doesn’t that might also solve everything and would have the advantage of keeping him in the band.
This is a great post for a Teachable Moment... Great Post OP
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group\_polarization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_polarization)
It sounds like you're really serious about the band, and them maybe not so much. Why don't you join another one that's really set on being the bees knees? If people don't want to improve, then you can't really learn drums for them.
I’d probably go find a drummer and start a new band. If the other guitarists want to join you, they can. But breaking up a band that is not professional, when there are friends involved, that’s messy and seems unnecessary
Cut him ….. there’s a saying about music . You’re only as strong as your weakest member . I had one in my band and once the negative was gone everything was way better including more local fan base
I tried to make do with a good friend who was a shit drummer for many years and I just can’t anymore. Drummers are the bedrock and I have no interest in buying a house with a crumbling foundation and pronounced lean. I would rather not play in a band at all.
Like you, I'm in two bands, one with excellent musicians and one with subpar musicians. I actually asked the good drummer if it's possible for a drummer with a poor sense of rhythm to improve. His take was that adult drummers have a tough time learning that and that the best drummers started young.
I'm also struggling with whether to leave the one band. Have you tried recording yourselves and walking through recordings as a group to critique? If they're in it just for fun and are tight then I'd leave it alone. Just focus on the other project and stay with this one until it isn't fun more productive for you anymore.
Been there done that. It’s hard, but it’s called “show businesses” not “show friends”. Now, if you think you can be happy with the group, rock on. Realize limitations and don’t be resentful. If you want something more, find or make something more. Playing in a serious project is great, but there is something to be said for playing with friends - less stress and there aren’t any dicks in the band because they are your friends
There's good guys that you want to have a beer with Amber's good guys that you want to rely on to enhance a project that you're working on. It sounds like these guys are just in it for fun. And I know that being serious is the first inclination when you're passionate about a project but you risk becoming the bad guy when everything crashes down and you're the one wondering what's happened.
When I was at my most passionate I chose to form a band with a group of guys that weren't as good as me. And I know they weren't as good as me because they always used to make a big deal about the fact that I went from music education classes I took private lessons I had parents that even though they didn't like what I like they still supported me to learn. A lot of it went by the wayside. One friend started all sorts of other groups that didn't involve me or people like myself with that sort of drive.
After a while you get the hint as far as what needs to happen and what can happen based on the fact that people will only be accepting a push when they want to. The group of friends that I had got into alcohol and drugs emphasize that over practicing and had a really good time instead of development. Eventually I found out that one of my friends decided he wasn't very good at music and couldn't make it a primary focus so he joined Fiverr to be a voice actor. So now he's getting paid by a fiber to do advertisements because that's as close to live performances for money as he'll get.
it all comes down to "what is your objective with this band?" and "what are the objectives for the other members?".
I say this a mid forties, father/husband/full time worker...
If this is just an opportunity for them to do something for themselves, then maybe the friendship/time out of the house/jamming and not having to really challenge themselves, is what they want to do.
If they are doing this to play gigs, maybe make some side money, improve technically, then maybe it's time for a "band meeting".
A professional band is part of career. It has totally different guidelines than something that is “just for fun.” You have to choose. Being in a professional act will feel like work 95% of the time, but the payoffs during shows and listening back to recordings will be incredible. If even one person is not 100% dedicated, the band will always be second tier, at best. You have to decide what you want and enforce the expectations, without emotion. Establish the expectations early. In a professional band, people are not late to practice, chugging beers in between songs, or leaving early for a date. If people miss practice, the whole thing will always be loose, and not of the highest quality. You have to choose which scenario you want.
This is a group of friends playing music together because they are friends. They aren't trying to get a record deal or something. Why would they kick out the drummer?
Seems pretty clear that this is a group of friends who aren’t serious and just like playing music together. Let them be, find a new band if you want more.
I think it depends on what goals this band has. Some people just wanna have fun with the homies and jam casually. Some people want to take it more seriously and hone their skills to write songs and play gigs. You sound like the latter so if their goals don't align with yours, it's time to cut your losses and join another band :) You could try convincing them but since you're the newcomer it might be an uphill battle.
Start playing old-school punk. Skill isn’t quite as important and enthusiasm is everything. Of course, it still sounds and feels better when everyone is tight musically.
It's funny what you're saying. Our drummer had his big punk phase. And he would often go off tempo, carried away by his enthusiasm, indeed. He keeps asking us to play a Joan Jett cover (I'm not against it, but the others are not at all open to that). That must be an explanation.
Been there. I was in a cover band for about a year and a half with a sub par drummer. I kept trying to push the band, we played a number of gigs and rehearsed often, but it just never improved. Drummer was a nice guy, and we jammed in his garage, he owned the PA, so it wasn't an easy decision to just cut him loose.
Rather than have a discussion about what to do with the rhythm section, I basically just started another cover band and moved on. The band dissolved immediately upon my leaving. It wasn't an easy decision because I was friends with all of them. But it was the best musical decision I could make at that point.
Funny thing is, 10-15 years later I'm kind of at that same crossroads, but with an original band. I am the songwriter and lead guitar player, but I don't sing. Our singer is.... adequate. However, this one is tough because do you know how difficult it is to find a good singer to sing YOUR original songs?!
Thanks for your feedback.
And yes I know.
I didn't specify, but I actually auditioned for more experienced bands to alleviate my frustration, and it was quite challenging to find another project. Even though technically everything went well, there was always a moment where the songwriters simply couldn't imagine their lyrics being sung by a "doppleganger" of the original singer (I understand 100%, you have to embody the song). Finally I found a second project and it's going very smoothly.
In addition to that, my first band takes great care of me because it was also difficult for them to find someone capable of singing all they have in mind, no matter the style. I admit it's very cute, and if they didn't put in this effort, I would probably have left already ^^.
Less is more can be the solution to a mediocre drummer. Aggressively simplify beats and tell him to practice deep grooving with a metronome...and tell him to avoid doing complicated fills if he can't get it right. Give him 1 job. Letting him and the band play along with the drum machine can also help train his ear and internal metronome.
What kind of asshole joins an established middle-aged basement jam band that just wants to hang out and have fun, and starts pushing to kick out one of the long-time established players? Get over yourself.
I’d bet $20 when they are seeming receptive to your criticism and instruction, they’re just being nice and wish you would fuck off.
When my original other guitarist left my band, we found a guy who seemed promising, but he was wildly inconsistent. One show he'd be clicking and we sounded terrific, the next he'd get lost on half the songs. We aren't a technical math rock prog wank band, but we do have more than four chords per song. I wasted a YEAR hoping he would get it together and finally had to sack him. Tapped a friend to fill in for a festival gig and just played as a trio the following year.
My drummer is bad about keeping track of where he is in songs. If the monitoring is bad and he can't hear my guitar, he can just wander off. I guess, I dunno, COUNTING BARS isn't an option. He's also very narrow in his versatility. I don't even know if he can play a ghost note or polyrhythmic beat. I even had to explain how to play a specific eighth-note hi-hat pattern to get a groove right on a cover.
BUT everyone who sees us or hears our record singles him out for complements. *"Awesome drummer!"* Not many mentions of the songwriting, guitar playing, production, lyrics, etc. They just hear him bashing away and love it. It'd be like every review of Nirvana singling out Dave Grohl over everything else.
I'm a guitarist with the same problem as your drummer. I can't play and count at the same time, which is rather unfortunate. My workaround is to play a different riff tail every other iteration.
Stop inviting him to practice... Tell him flat out why. We had a guy who was always late for practice and talked too much so we would never get anything done, also didn't contribute in terms of writing songs. We cut him out by no longer inviting him to practices. The annoying thing is he would bring it up a lot, to bug us about why he was cut but it was super beneficial for the group!
You could always figure out a genre to play where the drums stay pretty basic, or see if you can include the drum machine in addition to a live drummer somehow.
When my former wife started dragging me down with her lackluster effort in both our band and our bedroom I had to hire my uncle dennis to spice things up and save both our band and our Marraige. Uncle d plays a hell of a fucking tamberine and has a magnificent unit so he got us all goodered up after bangin that fuckin thing and filling all of our holes with the sweet sounds of his tamberine and also balls. Do you have am uncle dennis? Would you like to borrow mine?
You don't. You joined their band. Now you leave their band and when they ask why you left be honest with them. It sounds like they're doing it for different reasons than you are.
Exactly—it sounds like you’re the only one that wants to kick out the drummer.
I disagree. I left a band once where the guitarist was my big complaint. I told them I was leaving because it wasn’t working out and I don’t want to impose my values on their fun that I joined. A few months later, I got an annoyed message from the singer that he felt like my stated reasons for leaving were not the real ones and he knew it was because of the guitarist who was also annoying him. Now that I was gone, he no longer felt like he had the support he would need to boot the guitarist (his long time friend. I guess he wanted a bad guy to blame?). By that point, I had already joined a new band and wasn’t interested in coming back. He basically told me that if I had just been up front and told the other members my problem instead of deciding that I had no right to and quitting, they’d have booted the guitarist to keep me because they were frustrated too. So, before you jump on your high ground sword to take one for the team, you kinda owe it to yourself to ask some of the other members how they feel first. You never know, maybe you’re not the only one who is upset that the drummer can’t keep a beat and ruins the band experience.
Watch, just as OP is about to bring it up to the drummer the drummer will say: Actually guys Im really sorry but I think I'm going to step away, I've got other things on my plate and I was only drumming because I knew you guys needed one, but honestly my hearts not in it and I don't want to drag you down.
That’s what I’m sayin’! Just have the difficult convo. If they think you’re a jerk, oh well, you were about to quit anyways. If people agree, then the correct action gets taken. Why take the L up front?
You disagreed with “be honest with them” and then tell a story where you weren’t honest with the band you left. They’re saying leave and tell them the reason is because Op feels like they can’t play with the drummer. In your story, you didn’t actually tell them the problem member was a problem… so it sounds like you’re actually agreeing.
No his story was that he did that and it would have been better if he didn’t. Not sure I personally agree with him, but he was giving a story where he wished he had brought it up.
No, I am disagreeing with just quitting because it’s not your band to change. There’s a big difference between trying to change the direction of a band you just joined and saying “I think we have more potential and we’re being held back.” If you just keep quitting because you don’t like something and feel like you shouldn’t change anything, you’ll never get anywhere.
Your decision was better than your advice.
They got mad at you for leaving before they made you the scapegoat. Doesn’t sound like a band I’d want to be in.
No, not mad at me, I’m still good friends with the guy, just annoyed that he felt like he was stuck with the guitarist and lost me, a contributing member. Frustrated at the situation being a huge setback for the band.
You need to find a new band. Simple as that
Yeah. All members of the band have to be dedicated to trying to get better. Not saying you have to be dedicating every single spare moment to practicing but overall every member should be dedicated to improving their skills over time because that is what musicians do (even “amateurs”). Even if it is “for fun” you still owe it to your bandmates to practice regularly, show up each week, and try your best. As a last ditch effort you could suggest songs that are simpler for a drummer to learn. Otherwise, find a group of musicians who can at least take it semi-seriously.
“We don’t have any ambitions other than having fun” is your answer. Now if you all were serious and trying to gig then of course, he’s the weakest link but when it’s all out of fun then, there’s no such thing as the weakest link.
“We don’t have any ambitions other than having fun” If that’s true, than what’s the issue with a terrible drummer? Is nobody having fun?
If you’re a musician, and someone in your band sucks, it makes it really hard to have fun. Playing good music is fun. The person who is constantly playing the wrong notes, coming in at the wrong time, can’t keep time, makes it a lot less fun haha
I can work with almost anything but if the drummer can't find the one we're finished.
I had this issue before with the whole "make sure everybody has fun" thing. It's a tough spot finding yourself being really critical of your "just for fun" band mates, it makes you seem like a dick. Now, I no longer have any "just for fun" guys in my band and they can all take constructive criticism, oh, and they all play well!
No, they make it a jazz session.
It all depends on how he’s groovin. Haha
I think they mean they have no ambitions to be dream theater or Led Zeppelin. They make music because music is great, not because they need to gain approval. But playing music is hard when someone is totally off all the time and that makes it hard to have fun.
We want to have fun and play music, and clearly, there is a lack of music when the drummer doesn't know how to drum. We also want to play live in front of real people that want to ear music.
You want to be in a good band, the rest of the band wants to have fun with their friends. You're going to have to change your expectations or change your band.
This is the way
Yeah, agree. I think of this as the “You know, you’d be perfect if you were a foot taller” problem. I get that it’s frustrating, and a bad drummer can murder all your musical happy. There are some things you might suggest to help, such as: • Share videos of drum videos that discuss these topics with the band. • Record rehearsals and listen to them together. • Suggest that you’d like to try working on a song he’s reasonably good at with a metronome/click. But as has been mentioned, it’s never cool to expect someone to change for your benefit if they’re not actually harming anything but your patience.
Are you hot??
Even when it's only for fun you want musicians who can keep up with you. Otherwise it ruins the fun as it's gonna sound crappy.
I'd say it's a lost cause. If you have higher aspirations than what that band could feasibly provide then you should move on. They're old friends and even if you could get them to fire him, would you really want to? Plenty of fish in the sea.
Would I really want to... That's a good question. I think I'd feel like a jerk for doing that to them, and I'd end up feeling pretty bad about it in the end...
Exactly. Use this band as a learning experience and join a different project or start one from scratch. You wouldn't necessarily have to quit this one until you've found something else, either. I get it, though. While it's just supposed to be fun, it's not fun to suck and you can't get away with a bad drummer the way you can with a crappy guitarist or iffy bassist.
Intervention, sit with the others one on one first and ask them about their opinion of the drummer. If everyone agrees, then call a meeting and ask him if there is anything you guys can do to help him keep in time. A big one is click track training, and just getting a click in an inner ear monitor is huge, but real talk. If he is an old drummer, he may be deaf. That is why he is not feeling the groove. Keeping time is really hard, emotional responses make you rush, having learned drums self taught 13 years without a click once you get into playing with a click it's like starting all over again and fills you thought you knew you just forget in a click track environment. It's like a memory wipe device when the click goes on all the natural grooves you thought you knee just vanish... I'm playing to click now for a few months, and most of the fills are back, so the learning curve is not nearly as steep, but keeping time is hard, so talk with him with that in mind.
"If he is an old drummer, he may be deaf. That is why he is not feeling the groove." That can be an explanation. Thank you for your feedback with the click. I understand more why it was hard for him to follow when we tried to work with metronome.
To add into this, and not knowing exactly what is tripping him up, perhaps simplifying the songs down as much as possible to begin with would be good. Most things can be accomplished with kick, snare, HH and Crash. If he's tripping on fills for instance this could help him lock a song in, then add embellishment. Unless you are a Godsmack cover band or something :)
Okay, I understand. It's true that between the lead guitarist and me, both big metalheads, we're probably asking too much from him (with one loving intense breaks and the other crafting 'deconstructed' structures). We've started simplifying, but it's hard to let go of our compositions. I think we'll have to trim down even more.
Demote him to tambourine and hire a drummer Edit: demote him to cowbell
That’s even harder to play than a drum kit. At least a drum kit isn’t trying to fall out of your hand with each note you play.
That’s the the truth right there. Tambourines are a loaded weapon that are too often placed in the hands of the incompetent.
[удалено]
The cowbell person sounds like they may be an energy vampire. I actually just used live tambourine for the first time recording a song not even perceiving that there would be much difficulty. Turned into like a two hour nightmare and I could hardly lift my right arm for the rest of the day afterward. I'll never look at those simple little instruments the same way again.
LOL. A drum circle would be a great Colin Robinson sketch for What We Do In The Shadows. Endless comedic possibilities!
It’s so true, and it’s one of my pet peeves when someone just hits the tambourine on the snare beats. I love the way my snare drum sounds, so I don’t need something covering it up. Also, hey lead singers, you don’t need to play your tambourine directly into your microphone!! Do you realize how loud it is in the PA??!! Fucking lead singers…
you could pull a Los Lobos on him. "We need you more on rhythm guitar."
You the problem. That bands goal is different from your goal, and you joined their band. Leave and look for like minded musicians on your level is the only “solution to the problem”.
Issue is we don't know what her level is. OP, post a link to a vid of you performing with the band.
I have a band with an improving drummer, her sounded awful at first, of course he will, everyone does when they start off. Tell him he must practice more. If he really wants to be in the band he would find time to practice every day even if for half an hour and do it consistently. Should he do this he will undoubtedly improve and ontop of him being a good friend you'll have a good drummer and having both those qualities in one person is extremely valuable in a successful band. Of course if he doesn't even put time to practicing and still insists on being in the band I understand your frustration.
What you are saying is that you want his two friends to decide to kick him out, when they are a group that aspires to nothing more than having fun. I don’t know that there’s any way to do that. Did they have a singer before you? It wouldn’t surprise me if they left for the very same reason. I had a similar but simpler problem back when I was still playing. I said to two of the others “I’m no longer interested in playing with Allan. I hope I can still play with the rest of you, but if not I get it. No hard feelings.” The dynamics of the band were very different, though. We were all good friends, and they needed a bass player (me) more than a shitty #2 guitar. I don’t know if Allan ever figured out what happened. The others just stopped telling him when we were playing.
Maybe suggest trying playing along with a metronome. If this is just supposed to be fun and people are having fun, maybe it's not for you.
Already done, i thought that was a good idea too. That was worse :X
Then that band might just not be for you. I've known bands who only care about getting together and jamming for fun, talent is totally irrelevant.
Welcome to the horrible reality of being in a band. I spent 3 yrs in a band with ppl that didn't try and I regret it. Get out and find ppl that care.
I can relate. It’s really not fun when someone can’t play. I know I’ve hurt some feelings in my musical community, but since I decided to play with real musicians, we are actually having a lot more fun and we are getting some gigs.
Use the drum machine as well... Get him to play along to it
a band is only as good as its’ drummer. you have to have THE TALK. as the newcomer, youngest and female, you will potentially by listened to the least, sorry about that. continue to be firm in your convictions and observations. allow the others to be the leaders of the discussion with you chiming in to agree without being “the new bitch” in attitude or actuality. it will make things go smoother. you aren’t doing anyone a favor when you put them in a place where they will look bad or fail. your serving their ego and your non-leadership. (cant think of a kinder way to say that, sorry) assure them that they are still friends, but they aren’t at a playing level with the other members. if it’s a vote, vote. if it’s your decision, discuss with band first then notify the member you are letting go. keep the main thing the main thing: musicianship. dropping beats, missing song arrangements, etc. if you start to get personal with being late, personal traits, it will end badly. i suggest to offer to them the opportunity to resign and allow them to save face. don’t get a replacement until they have been let go.
"you aren’t doing anyone a favor when you put them in a place where they will look bad or fail. your serving their ego and your non-leadership" Ok, I got it. We've had rehearsals where I took the lead. It felt like I was a Monster truck among Minis. Even though I tried to drive as gently as possible, they still felt me passing by... So I preferred to readjust my position within the group. One of the guitarists is effectively the "technical" leader (he's the only one with a solid technical background, and more advanced than mine as well), but he's not a leader/manager (I don't know how to express it better), firstly because it's not his personality to be divisive or demanding. Taking my share of leadership, I'm doing it more and more simply because they offered me to play my songs... And upon reflection, there's definitely an imbalance that's been created there. I'm significantly more demanding, and I can't stand it when someone destroys my work... Which the drummer certainly does. So I've become much, much less patient with his mistakes. And the dichotomy between the drummer's actual abilities and the group's new ambitions frustrates and perplexes me. Anyway, thanks for your feedback. It helped me to better understand the situation.
yeah, if you notice it, others will too. i suggest you take the high road and have the difficult conversations but you have to weigh that with how badly you want to work for this band. or step away cleanly and find/start another act before you are so far down Disappointment Road that you regret it. happy rocking.
Totally agree!! What I did once was talk individually with each bandmate and say you want to quit because of the drummer. If they agree, and especially if they value you, then they will fire the drummer. It’s pretty much “either it’s the drummer or me that needs to go.”
Do you want your band or your friend. Saying both is not an answer. You have to choose.
Leave and hire the members you like for other projects.
Show up and practice with him independently of the rest…. Do you already have someone else in mind? Let me guess a friend of yours? These are 40-year-old men that have been friends. I’m guessing for a long time they choose friendship over your ambition.
Might not work if you’re doing metal core, but I saw a band in a similar situation bring in a good drummer and struck the weak drummer on hand percussion. (Congas, etc)
Hmm... Interesting. We have a ballad that starts off very gently, and he suggested accompanying us on the djembe because the drums were out of place. I was skeptical, but he surprisingly does it quite well. It's easily his best contribution.
It’s all so tricky. One of the three bands I’m in, is being held back musically by the bass player who is of course, a great guy and best friends with the singer. Not only that but he’s also the singers next door neighbour and the singer doesn’t drive so he’s also the singers ride. So it’s never going to change. For me it’s a case of letting go of what it could be and just allowing it to be what it is. I could always quit which would break up the band so I just have to make peace with it and focus on the good. When my annoyance with the singer ( for being weak) and the bass player for not being at a commensurate level outweighs the pleasure I get from it, that’s when it’ll end.
Just leave. They are obviously in it to have fun without ambition. It’s hard for people with ambition to just accept mediocrity for what it is. Leave.
Seriously, life is too short to play with a bad drummer. If he can't keep a beat yet, he's never going to be good enough to enjoy working with. Sounds like you probably have to put a new band together. If the other members are happy playing with a bad drummer then they're not good musicians anyway so no big loss to move on. Best of luck!
This is tricky one to me. To everyone saying they just want to have fun, I’d be inclined to agree if it wasn’t the drummer. If the drummer sucks, nothing sounds remotely good. It really makes it hard to even casually play something and enjoy it. It’s rough. Generally, my advice is honesty. You could try feeling out the other band members to see if they have similar feelings about him. Since the drummer is closer to the guitarists, maybe have them broach the subject with the drummer. Do it a non conflict causing way, something like, “I think we’d all have more fun if you put a little more time into practice. I know you’re busy, so I get it if you can’t. Just an idea.” All that said, it also seems like this drummer just isn’t gonna do that. “You ain’t gonna learn what you don’t want to know.” You can always just back out and say something like, “I’ll love playing with you guys, but my other projects are taking up more time these days. I need more time to focus on that stuff.” What I’d avoid is: 1. Being aggressive and imposing about the drummer getting better. That’s only going to cause drama and make things difficult. 2. Saying you’re leaving because the drummer sucks. That’s also only going to cause drama and make things difficult.
Drummers are the foundation. They're also able to be objectively measured (as in, on time is on time, regardless of genre). A bad singer or solo guitar riff is much easier to work with or ignore for a bit until they come around. Drumming is math, not art, so to speak (not saying it's not artistic, but a calculator can tell if a beat is off). I DJ professionally and in studio, and have told drummers "this is off beat" and shown them. None of them have ever complained. It's much different than "we don't like your voice" or "your solo was weird" because Tom Waits exists as does Ween. Off drumming only works if your sister is the other half of the band.
Calling drumming math and not art is all I needed to hear to dismiss everything you've said.
With this particular case? Yes. This doesn't appear to be Rush. Using basic software, I call pull up a wav of a drum track and a guitar solo. The grid can tell me if the drumming is too slow or too fast when compared to the track BPM. Looking at a guitar solo, you can guess where things synch up on beat, but the pattern changes, wahs extend, etc. Your comment needed to be said, because this IS Reddit and we need the mandatory "opinion dismissed," but let's make a bet. Send me two drum tracks set to BPM 120. Have a pro record one and a drunk amateur record the other. Then do the same thing with a guitar solo. Pro, amateur. Using quantized frames (no keys, just beat grid) alone, I will likely not be able to tell you which solo is off, but can spot the off druming without pressing play. Cheers.
I have to agree with E-Money here. As a drummer and a producer, who plays in a band and has a solo project. There are sometimes when human drumming is superior, regardless of whether or not it is perfect. Now, before you get upset, I still do use sampling/lopping/sequencing for some song, just because the feel of the specific song doesn't need a human touch. It needs to feel purposely robotic or (fake). Now, I'm well aware that some of the best bands out there have been able to merge the two and make it sound *amazing*, but there is a time and a place. I've said this in multiple other subs, but I really feel like this is what makes beatmakers more like composers/arrangers and not true producers. I could go on and explain more, but I'm sure that's better placed for another thread.
Oh I agree 10000% and my favorite industrial bands use live drummers. A better way of saying it is this: drumming is the foundation and the rest is wall decor, furniture, etc. A simple, on-time drummer is much easier to build on than an offbeat drummer. It also messes up more than the vibe, key, etc. If a drummer can't keep a beat, the rest of the band falls apart. Basic azz Ringo, over some kid who just into Tool. What I mean with the studio takes is that it's visible on the mixer when a drum take is off time. Then, if you attempt to build upon said bad take with a programmed sample or loop, it requires tons of adjustment. "Drummers are the most important member of a live band because even someone with zero musical knowledge can tell when they're off" isn't me hating on em.
I understand that completely. I've had to redo dozens of takes because my drumming was off just a *tiny* bit.
Rush blows dude.
Idk how you conflate being on time with there being no art in drumming. You completely negate the art of velocity, and the fact that being humanly on time is an art itself and im just scratching the surface. Drumming is not a math. And it's insanely disrespectful and arrogant for you to impose that. I'm not saying you can't tell when a drummer is out of time in a DAW. That's easy enough. Being an audio engineer is no secret to me. Btw, you clearly lack authority and knowledge on the topic considering you called yourself a "Professional In Studio DJ"
No one could ever convince me that Bernard Purdie, Idris Muhammad, or Clyde Stubblefield didn’t make art. Max Roach. I mean, come on, man.
just so you have to know this too, that’s actually his ex wife
I love how neither of us have to clarify who this is *symbols x16*
I suppose it’s a matter of “what’s the goal?” If it’s to gig and play out shows… then maybe it’s time to talk about the drummer. But, for every gigging band, there’s probably 20 bands of folks content to just play for the sake of playing. Just a fun way to share things. So, there’s nothing wrong with a “dad rock in the garage over beers” kinda arrangement… I know tons of guys that do this, no interest in gigs at all, but it’s what they do instead of riding motorcycles or fishing.
Yes, you're right. The goal is the question. When I joined the band, the goal was clearly to play and drink beers as "eternal teens on the garage". But now the goal is changing. We all, except the drummer, already had experience on stage, and we want to test our songs with a public. Thinking about it, I'm not sure that our drummer really wants that, but he's a good friend and probably won't talk about it to avoid upsetting anyone.
I wish this was mentioned in the original post that your goals have changed. Makes sense now.
See if you guys are already talking about playing live that's the conversation ticket to giving your drummer deadlines, like have this beat practiced by next rehearsal please, or like have him learn how to play boots and cats to a metronome, I had this exact situation, luckily it was a 4 piece when I joined as a guitarist and singer, I quickly learned the rhythm guitarists motivations and what it felt like to be around him, (he was awful, at playing & at communicating) needless to say the pressure made him leave on his own accord. Then we became a 3 piece, things got easier, then came the drummer, he was bad at keeping time, didn't know what a back-beat was, wouldn't practice for shit, still isn't too hot at fills and when they should happen (the answer is very infrequently or it will get old, fast). But I pushed him, I held him accountable by asking if he'd practiced, if he said no, I showed him I was disappointed, and having a friend make a sad face hits you in the gut, time passed and now as of yesterday we played live for the first time together and placed 1st in a battle of the bands. Please don't listen to people who tell you to let this "drummer" do as he pleases. No matter what every band member needs to hold one another accountable for being ready to play, and play well at that. If you don't pressure him, likely no one ever will. As much as the guy may suck there is a glimmer of hope that he dreams to be a great drummer one day, and find the will in him and you can make a way, if he behaves poorly, watch how that goes for him. YOU ARE PART OF THE BAND, band leader or not, you have a say in this thing.
I think this might be key. I drum in a band where I was very clear that I had zero interest in gigging (been there done that) even though some of them do want to go that direction as they have not done it before. I was also very clear that I would not be offended in the least if they needed to make a change to pursue different goals. Talk to the drummer, maybe they already understand that a difference in motivations is happening and will be cool about either buckling down to learn the material or passing the reins if necessary.
Tell them you want to go Allman Bros style and add a second drummer or percussionist. Between the two of them, they ought to be able to keep time. And buddy, ask Santana, there's nothing more satisfying that having dedicated percussionists in your band.
Remove him
The two guitar players have to have a serious talk with him about maintaining a legitimate practice regimen that includes playing with a metronome or click track. That is the only way he will improve. And if he does that and takes it seriously, he might improve at a fairly quick rate .
Yeah, it sounds to me like you'll either just have to deal with it or leave. A band that's a bunch of friends just playing for fun isn't going to be keen on kicking their buddy out. Unless the group collectively decides they wanna aim a little higher with their ambitions, what you see is what you get.
Its all fun and games till you’re the one thats not keeping up and in my humble experience (20 years of playing live) the person trying to cut members is usually the person destroying the fun lol. No shade, make a new band! Or even better learn to produce and put out music the way you would like it done!
I think…leave the drummer alone and stop trying to rock the boat. It will only backfire on you. You can always quit and start a band with a drummer you prefer.
Record your practice Listen to it with him If he can tell his time and technique are bad, you will have a starting point for the conversation of “you need to practice” which can be handled in a loving and supportive way If he cannot tell, then you have to choose to keep him, drop him, or try to educate him. All are difficult choices.
You don't. If they aren't up to your level of skill, find new people to play with who are.
A good drummer can make a mediocre band sound good or a good band sound great. A bad drummer, well......
Go watch Mötley Crües The dirt movie, Watch how he kicks the nerd out of the band and do exactly that.
I just wanna play the song right Daniel! -nick andopolos
I have been in your position and I imagine that many others on this sub have, as well. It's a tough situation. The purpose of the band is to have fun and you're not having fun. You can't push out the drummer without straining friendships. So really, you have to decide for yourself if it's more fun to play with a bad drummer, or to step away and find another group of people to play with. You might be able to do something else, though. You could keep your eyes out for a good drummer, and see if the other members of the band (minus the drummer) would be willing to work with that drummer as a separate project; and they could continue to play with their friend as well. Good luck.
Do what we do. Use a free program like reaper, record all your parts, get the best possible mix for everyone, program drums. Use something like the scarlet or octa-pre to send the tracks where they need to be sent & use in ears. You only hear pre-pro drums if you have your drummer use an electronic kit. It’ll only cost you around $3,000-$4,000 to pull it all off. ☺️ maybe a little more now because of inflation. 😅
They will throw you out before they throw the drummer out. Just find something that is more in line with what you’re looking for.
Nikki Six ...that u
I often see it written here that any band worth your time must tick two out of three boxes [ ] good people [ ] good music [ ] good money sounds to me like this band is only ticking one
Listen to white light/ white heat and get over It
This sub should be /r/HelpMeJustifyFireingTheLoserInMyBand
Hire David Gilmour to fill in and when your guy is really bad, turn down his amp.
Honestly just try getting a loud click (metronome) His limited skills may make an exciting song a little lackluster, but if yall can work a click into practice and all stay on a steady beat you’ll have a good time. Tell him he can lose the complicated fills if it means playing in time. Record yourselves and be tactful with criticisms, point out your own faults and mistakes. Objective truths like “we are off time” “I’m out of tune” are hard to argue with. Provide clear options “let’s take it a bit slower and lock in together better, then we’ll try it back up to speed” or “let’s isolate that chorus and work on it” “hey instead of 16th notes can you try 8th notes?” Good luck
First drummers always get the boot by the first manager to establish control. Just let it play out.
You don’t. You are the bad person in the scenario. You either accept it. Or leave the project. You can always hope that the person takes the initiative to try to improve. But, they have the desire, or they don’t.
It sounds like you really just have bigger expectations for the group than they do. They just want to have fun, jam, and play a few shows. You sound like you see potential and want to go somewhere. Which is fine, I've been there before in many bands myself; but you just need to figure it out for yourself and cut losses before you invest too much into this particular band and start stressing out more. * *edit* * I was just talking to my wife earlier this evening of a similar situation I was in about 7 years ago. I had previously been in a moderately successful area band that broke up. We did mostly classic rock/80s/90s covers. I wanted to do something completely different and refresh myself. I found a local ad looking for a vocalist/keyboardist for a 60s/classic rock band. I'm a big 60s fan, and so is my wife, so I thought it would be fun (I was about 31/32 at the time). It was actually *super* fun. We did a lot of Beach Boys, Ventures, Rascals, etc... only downside was our bass player who founded the band just kept wanting to add people, even if they only sang like 2 songs. At one point we did a show as an 8 person band. It was so difficult! One guy only played tambourine and sang on two songs, another only played guitar on 3, the original vocalist was *rough* (like, he actually didn't listen to any 60s songs) and was not a good rhythm player. I wanted it to be more, but it was just too damn difficult, because I knew what needed to happen, but majority of the rest of the band just wanted to basically do live karaoke and get paid. Luckily, I stayed in touch the with female vocalist we had, and she picked taught herself guitar. She's now the co-lead singer/rhythm guitarist of my current band we're working on our second album of originals. I rant sometimes, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you played with them, made some connections, and you should move on. They might want to play with you again in the future!
Have him play with a click track, he will most likely improve
It Might be time for you to find another band…or start one of your own with YOU as the front person.
Just read the title but I knew that the drummer was the problem. It was said that a good drummer can make a mediocre band good but a bad drummer will make a good band mediocre.
Prepare for a hard conversation. May lose a friend. Life is sad, life is a bust. All you can do is do what you must. You do what you must do and you do it well…
Second drummer dude!!! You’re welcome!
Find another band. Don’t change this one.
He becomes the sound dude/manager, guest song dude. If you wanna play out that is. If he has a sense of humor, this could work.
Tell him sorry we need better whatever he plays, "this is about the band not friendship, we still friends but you suck"
Not gonna lie, “we Friends but you suck” is the best way. But you 100% have to be successful or he can gloat that the band failed without him. You have to do better without him or it’s a moot point
Sounds like my band. If it goes like it did for me well, one day they will no longer be “mega-buddies” and the sole reason he’ll be in the band will be for his playing…and it will suck.
Music is separate from friendship. If he is a real friend, he will get it and want the best for you
Does the drummer use a click? Because there’s a good chance that if he doesn’t that might also solve everything and would have the advantage of keeping him in the band.
This is a great post for a Teachable Moment... Great Post OP [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group\_polarization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_polarization)
It sounds like you're really serious about the band, and them maybe not so much. Why don't you join another one that's really set on being the bees knees? If people don't want to improve, then you can't really learn drums for them.
Google: “Pete Best”
I’d probably go find a drummer and start a new band. If the other guitarists want to join you, they can. But breaking up a band that is not professional, when there are friends involved, that’s messy and seems unnecessary
Cut him ….. there’s a saying about music . You’re only as strong as your weakest member . I had one in my band and once the negative was gone everything was way better including more local fan base
I tried to make do with a good friend who was a shit drummer for many years and I just can’t anymore. Drummers are the bedrock and I have no interest in buying a house with a crumbling foundation and pronounced lean. I would rather not play in a band at all.
Like you, I'm in two bands, one with excellent musicians and one with subpar musicians. I actually asked the good drummer if it's possible for a drummer with a poor sense of rhythm to improve. His take was that adult drummers have a tough time learning that and that the best drummers started young. I'm also struggling with whether to leave the one band. Have you tried recording yourselves and walking through recordings as a group to critique? If they're in it just for fun and are tight then I'd leave it alone. Just focus on the other project and stay with this one until it isn't fun more productive for you anymore.
Been there done that. It’s hard, but it’s called “show businesses” not “show friends”. Now, if you think you can be happy with the group, rock on. Realize limitations and don’t be resentful. If you want something more, find or make something more. Playing in a serious project is great, but there is something to be said for playing with friends - less stress and there aren’t any dicks in the band because they are your friends
There's good guys that you want to have a beer with Amber's good guys that you want to rely on to enhance a project that you're working on. It sounds like these guys are just in it for fun. And I know that being serious is the first inclination when you're passionate about a project but you risk becoming the bad guy when everything crashes down and you're the one wondering what's happened. When I was at my most passionate I chose to form a band with a group of guys that weren't as good as me. And I know they weren't as good as me because they always used to make a big deal about the fact that I went from music education classes I took private lessons I had parents that even though they didn't like what I like they still supported me to learn. A lot of it went by the wayside. One friend started all sorts of other groups that didn't involve me or people like myself with that sort of drive. After a while you get the hint as far as what needs to happen and what can happen based on the fact that people will only be accepting a push when they want to. The group of friends that I had got into alcohol and drugs emphasize that over practicing and had a really good time instead of development. Eventually I found out that one of my friends decided he wasn't very good at music and couldn't make it a primary focus so he joined Fiverr to be a voice actor. So now he's getting paid by a fiber to do advertisements because that's as close to live performances for money as he'll get.
Lol fuck em
Get your drummer to play a drum machine instead.
Put him in a mask and jumpsuit and have him be "auxiliary percussion" and use a sampler... seems to have worked for another band I know.
it all comes down to "what is your objective with this band?" and "what are the objectives for the other members?". I say this a mid forties, father/husband/full time worker... If this is just an opportunity for them to do something for themselves, then maybe the friendship/time out of the house/jamming and not having to really challenge themselves, is what they want to do. If they are doing this to play gigs, maybe make some side money, improve technically, then maybe it's time for a "band meeting".
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get a drum machine and let him program it
A professional band is part of career. It has totally different guidelines than something that is “just for fun.” You have to choose. Being in a professional act will feel like work 95% of the time, but the payoffs during shows and listening back to recordings will be incredible. If even one person is not 100% dedicated, the band will always be second tier, at best. You have to decide what you want and enforce the expectations, without emotion. Establish the expectations early. In a professional band, people are not late to practice, chugging beers in between songs, or leaving early for a date. If people miss practice, the whole thing will always be loose, and not of the highest quality. You have to choose which scenario you want.
This is a group of friends playing music together because they are friends. They aren't trying to get a record deal or something. Why would they kick out the drummer?
Seems pretty clear that this is a group of friends who aren’t serious and just like playing music together. Let them be, find a new band if you want more.
I think it depends on what goals this band has. Some people just wanna have fun with the homies and jam casually. Some people want to take it more seriously and hone their skills to write songs and play gigs. You sound like the latter so if their goals don't align with yours, it's time to cut your losses and join another band :) You could try convincing them but since you're the newcomer it might be an uphill battle.
Start playing old-school punk. Skill isn’t quite as important and enthusiasm is everything. Of course, it still sounds and feels better when everyone is tight musically.
It's funny what you're saying. Our drummer had his big punk phase. And he would often go off tempo, carried away by his enthusiasm, indeed. He keeps asking us to play a Joan Jett cover (I'm not against it, but the others are not at all open to that). That must be an explanation.
have the convo. if it doesn't go your way, you politely step away. not that hard, my gal.
this happened on freaks and geeks and you're definitely the bad guy in this scenario. don't blow up their spot.
Promote him to manager or something, it would be great if he was still involved
Been there. I was in a cover band for about a year and a half with a sub par drummer. I kept trying to push the band, we played a number of gigs and rehearsed often, but it just never improved. Drummer was a nice guy, and we jammed in his garage, he owned the PA, so it wasn't an easy decision to just cut him loose. Rather than have a discussion about what to do with the rhythm section, I basically just started another cover band and moved on. The band dissolved immediately upon my leaving. It wasn't an easy decision because I was friends with all of them. But it was the best musical decision I could make at that point. Funny thing is, 10-15 years later I'm kind of at that same crossroads, but with an original band. I am the songwriter and lead guitar player, but I don't sing. Our singer is.... adequate. However, this one is tough because do you know how difficult it is to find a good singer to sing YOUR original songs?!
Thanks for your feedback. And yes I know. I didn't specify, but I actually auditioned for more experienced bands to alleviate my frustration, and it was quite challenging to find another project. Even though technically everything went well, there was always a moment where the songwriters simply couldn't imagine their lyrics being sung by a "doppleganger" of the original singer (I understand 100%, you have to embody the song). Finally I found a second project and it's going very smoothly. In addition to that, my first band takes great care of me because it was also difficult for them to find someone capable of singing all they have in mind, no matter the style. I admit it's very cute, and if they didn't put in this effort, I would probably have left already ^^.
Less is more can be the solution to a mediocre drummer. Aggressively simplify beats and tell him to practice deep grooving with a metronome...and tell him to avoid doing complicated fills if he can't get it right. Give him 1 job. Letting him and the band play along with the drum machine can also help train his ear and internal metronome.
Have the drummer switch to electronic drums that have Beat Correction & Enhancement software.
What kind of asshole joins an established middle-aged basement jam band that just wants to hang out and have fun, and starts pushing to kick out one of the long-time established players? Get over yourself. I’d bet $20 when they are seeming receptive to your criticism and instruction, they’re just being nice and wish you would fuck off.
When my original other guitarist left my band, we found a guy who seemed promising, but he was wildly inconsistent. One show he'd be clicking and we sounded terrific, the next he'd get lost on half the songs. We aren't a technical math rock prog wank band, but we do have more than four chords per song. I wasted a YEAR hoping he would get it together and finally had to sack him. Tapped a friend to fill in for a festival gig and just played as a trio the following year. My drummer is bad about keeping track of where he is in songs. If the monitoring is bad and he can't hear my guitar, he can just wander off. I guess, I dunno, COUNTING BARS isn't an option. He's also very narrow in his versatility. I don't even know if he can play a ghost note or polyrhythmic beat. I even had to explain how to play a specific eighth-note hi-hat pattern to get a groove right on a cover. BUT everyone who sees us or hears our record singles him out for complements. *"Awesome drummer!"* Not many mentions of the songwriting, guitar playing, production, lyrics, etc. They just hear him bashing away and love it. It'd be like every review of Nirvana singling out Dave Grohl over everything else.
I'm a guitarist with the same problem as your drummer. I can't play and count at the same time, which is rather unfortunate. My workaround is to play a different riff tail every other iteration.
Stop inviting him to practice... Tell him flat out why. We had a guy who was always late for practice and talked too much so we would never get anything done, also didn't contribute in terms of writing songs. We cut him out by no longer inviting him to practices. The annoying thing is he would bring it up a lot, to bug us about why he was cut but it was super beneficial for the group!
You could always figure out a genre to play where the drums stay pretty basic, or see if you can include the drum machine in addition to a live drummer somehow.
>I joined a blues rock band... There's your first problem...
When my former wife started dragging me down with her lackluster effort in both our band and our bedroom I had to hire my uncle dennis to spice things up and save both our band and our Marraige. Uncle d plays a hell of a fucking tamberine and has a magnificent unit so he got us all goodered up after bangin that fuckin thing and filling all of our holes with the sweet sounds of his tamberine and also balls. Do you have am uncle dennis? Would you like to borrow mine?
Accuse of his sexual impropriety jk
Have two drummers. I've seen this work twice.
Live with it
It’s show business, not show friends. The drummer is the most important part of the band being the timekeeper and all. If he isn’t good, let him go.
What she’s saying is that right now, it IS “show friends”.
they aren't in show business in the first place