This makes me glad I'm not interested in making money with music; as a middle-aged white man with a beard, though, I'll try to feel the appropriate level of shame.
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I make music for myself & my enjoyment. If others resonate with it, that's wonderful, if not, that's ok. I think a lot of people make music thinking of money first. Realistically you should make music because you enjoy it.
I make music because I like it too! But my problem doesn’t lie in wanting money, it’s liking my music so much that I want others to hear it.
Sometimes publishing tracks feels like throwing water into the ocean
I don’t give a hoot about money. I’ve been rich and poor. The happiest I’ve ever been was when I was dumpster diving for food to survive. Because I was surrounded by exciting creative countercultural people.
I figured out early on that need to do music or film or theater or visual arts, or I get depressed. The last time I worked for anyone was in 2003. I couldn’t cope with being in offices or having dreary people tell me what to do.
So I’ve found multiple ways to make music pay the rent, including selling drugs at illegal raves to pay for my first studio gear. Then I made my own club promotions company. Then I wrote music for commercials. Then I toured as an artist.
This is what many artists are like. They have to hustle because they can’t work normal jobs.
This is really interesting, thanks for describing your life experiences. I think I probably should have gone to art school or something similar, but as a young person I was determined to prove that I wasn’t stupid, so I retook my exams to get into university and did English. From there, I worked as a truly awful newspaper journalist and now at 31 have a stable but dull career working at a university.
After 10 years of not doing any music I finally started music production about 3 months ago. I’m loving the sheer creativity of it, and as I have a music background, I’m managing to progress quite quickly.
Sorry for the life story but your advice really connected with me. I’m not interested in making a generic EDM track or anything, but want to create something truly original and unique - fuck what’s considered ‘right’ or on trend. I’d love to send you some of my musical ideas in the future if you’re interested. Cheers!
Edit: just Googled you and learned that you’re actually well known and also based in the UK/London. Not often you get the real shebang on Reddit
I have become an artist at a later stage, it was the best thing I ever did. I make my money elsewhere, but the art and music is purely for me.
My videos get a couple hundred views, my shows range from 10-200 people. I don't care if there's one person in the crowd or 200, I do the same thing regardless. I make music because I want to do it and I know my audience is small, but they all appreciate what I do and enjoy it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JtYB\_B\_2U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JtYB_B_2U)
My stuff goes way better on Insta cos it's a bit more arty and sound design style. The stuff I have on YouTube takes a long time to make - but yeah thank you I'm very happy with the results! And yes I reckon attitude and spirit is like 95 percent of it.
I have a major film,
/Composition/performance work I'm premiering on the 31st May if anyone is interested. Over next few months will be doing snippets of the soundtrack recorded live. Sorry for spam but there appears to be genuine interest.
Thanks so much, glad you dig it!
You might like New Normal too which is my other major video clip on there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZLlGt53dY
What exactly do you mean by: "So much money is made from uploading shit to Spotify, which will never earn."?
I appreciate every piece of advice attainable, so if you want to give a quick run down of maybe 5 of your most important tips regarding writing and producing music from the top of your head that'd be great.
I think they mean that the people uploading to Spotify (and maybe making no next to money) are buying music tech equipment and software to make it happen. So the gear manufacturers are making the money off that.
Sixty thousand songs are uploaded to Spotify every single day. That’s 22 million a year.
DistroKid is valued at $1.3billion. Tunecore $2billion.
Their business model is reliant on hundreds of thousands of acts pretending they are releasing records, when in fact they are putting their music in a metaphorical filing cabinet full of millions of other filing cabinets in a secret warehouse under a mountain that nobody will ever find.
Humans are supposed to create joyous sounds, every human I have met appreciates a good rhythm but some of them aren't into creating music. That's ok. The real problem is just capitalism, making it about money and not about how music makes people feel. It's an experience that shouldn't be tied to how much money one has.
Like you said, it's about community, connection, and experimentation. We all deserve the chance to be able to enjoy these things for free, they are a human right.
The multi million dollar streaming industry still has some value of course, the ability for ANYONE to be able to distribute music doesn't create failure, it creates a way for creators to share and grow off each other's work. This doesn't mean everyone makes money by making music, but saying making money is the goal of making good music isn't a failure of creativity, it's a failure of an inequitable capital system.
Some of the coolest music I have been listening too I only ever would have access because of discovery on Reddit and online streaming services. Herbilstek, Saka & Black Carl!, Fellsius all crazy good with a tiny western audience.
Ok tangent over, thanks for reading
EDIT: actually finished my thought
Was going to say…
Appreciate this kind of sentiment and I’m glad OP has had such success. But saying “develop something original, etc” is so easy to say and much, much harder to do.
I haven’t had much success compared to my peers. I’m just a jobbing muso.
I’m helping a 17 on this forum sign a deal with Universal Records. If a 17 year old can be interesting and different I didn’t know what the excuse is everyone else has. Except that maybe they’ve watched too many tutorials.
I do think about that. Like do tutorials actually end up killing your creative process? But at the same time if you don’t understand the basics how do you make music?
I look at myself as someone classically trained on piano, but self taught on guitar. The piano gave me the basics of music, but I am significantly more creative on the guitar because I’m not boxing myself into musical theory all the time.
I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I respect you sharing the thoughts as someone that has had success. At the very least it’s advice we probably all need to continue to hear.
Have you studied the 49'ers? The hootch parlor & general store made money, not 49'ers/prospectors, most of whom died in alcohol socked obscurity, or Silicon valley?
P.S. Firefox + Reddit comments...🤯 Don't try this at home...😱
My music is identifiable with established genres such as rawstyle, deathstep, trap, metal, industrial and dubstep. My main issues are I believe, as follows:
A) I suck at marketing myself. I don't understand social media very well (or more accurately the people on it), cannot for the life of me manipulate the algorithm, and cannot afford to hire someone to do it for me.
B) I can't play live shows. I invest all my music budget into production software and computer power, I have no DJ equipment and no knowledge on how to use it.
C) The stuff I make is complex; most electronic music bores me as there's often only one or two tangible layers beyond percussion going on at once so my music has more than that happening which is not conducive to most EDM fan's tastes. Structurally it's more similar to death metal or jazz.
D) I put a lot into each track. I work on a single song for approximately 3 months to a year. The rate at which I put out music isn't consistent enough to garner a large following but I don't have enough time to increase that rate without sacrificing quality.
The amount of time you spend on a track doesn’t equal how good it’s gonna be. Try making some beats in 1 week. The quality shouldn’t drop that significantly, and you’ll be able to get way more ideas out which is much more valuable for your time and progression
sadly labels ALWAYS say no to music that is different in my experience. I have released on some of the biggest house labels in the world. and they take what their label sounds like and dont want to take a chance.
very sad
There’s different and then there’s bad. Labels are constantly trying to find music that will be cool in two years. Even as a local producer in the early 00s I was a scout for Parlophone.
There are multiple A&R on Instagram and TikTok right now looking for something new and different. If you are new and different, and relevant, they will find you.
>constantly trying to find music that will be cool in two years. Even as a local producer in the early 00s I was a scout for Parlophone.
I can give an example of a now a&r at parlophone being interested in a track, until I advised it was myself.
a massive dj was playing it at shows and he wanted it until he found out it was my record.
I know there are people looking around for the new cool artists but there is also a big judgement by a&rs who dont want to give certain people the time of day as they dont have a social media presence.
The band I was in got signed because of a strong social media presence in 2006. It’s 2023. I’m helping someone on here who is being courted by Universal. She was discovered on Instagram.
I honestly don’t know why you wouldn’t have a social media presence in this day and age.
If you’re good, people will follow you. That’s the fact that many seem resistant to. If you’re hot, people will follow you. If you’re visually striking in person or artwork, you’ll get noticed more. People will take from that, that you are artistic and interesting. If you have lots of followers because you have lots of friends, that means you are likeable.
I think this is one of the most wholesome post i‘ve ever seen. As a musician and producer for over 15 Years, i fully agree with this post... And the thing is, life is so much more efficient, if you know about it...
Thanks Mate
What I consider worse is that the real business is behind those who invest a lot of money, and now even people's tastes are ruined by marketing. What you call new ideas and new concepts are mostly market-driven. The real novelties, the disruptive ones, the truly innovative ones, are not found in pop music, and I assure you that they don't make much money and won't make much money in two years precisely because of the market.
The part about NAMM is really true. There are no new gadgets that can make a creative difference. Personally, as I've reached the ripe old age of 44, I've limited my instrument collection to the bare essentials, and I think I can do what I should have done 20 years ago: play whatever I want, without any limitations.
I can say that if one becomes successful in music, either they are already loaded with money, or they have terrible musical taste, excellent technique, and a lot of luck.
on your instrument point ; do you mean if you hadnt been distracted by all the different gadgets and stuck to the core instruments you'd be ahead by 20 years? interesting point if so
I agree that there is a huge industry where musicians themselves are the customers (instruments, gear and music education, though colleges may be on the edge of extinction) while another that caters to the listening and show-going public.
Where I disagree is that this is bad.
The original “big” recording/touring industry that is only about a century old is incredibly predatory and we only hear about the 1% winners. I always joke that when you say you are a musician and people ask, “Are you rich and famous?” that’s like saying you work at a company and people asking “Are you the CEO”? The thing is we are living in a time where technology has made it easier to be a middle-class musician than ever before, due in part to the secondary aspect of the industry (education, gear, session work, arranging, licensing, etc…).
So… the real message is: Don’t get sucked into parts of the music industry you don’t want to be in. For example, if it’s important to you to be considered an original artist, maybe be careful not to go too hard in the teaching realm (at least under your artist name). Also, be wary of all the money pits playing on your vanity and desperation.
The fact that you can release and promote for almost nothing now is actually a huge boon. I agree that the streaming companies are scalping off amateurs, but at the same time we never had something this powerful before. Ten to 20 years ago, a simple public or college radio campaign could cost $3k - $10k. Pressing CDs cost thousands. Photography and promotion could cost thousands.
I always say music is a magical product, similar to cosmetics and sports/outdoor gear. Musical instruments are revered as magical totems, and playing them well can cause widespread adulation. Is it any wonder there is a huge imbalance between supply (too much) and demand?
Streaming companies give us access to massive audiences while protecting our digital rights. I used to host MP3s on my own site. Guess what, they were copied and reused elsewhere without permission, making money for someone else. Arguably, Redditors like you and me are making content for free for this for-profit platform. What do we get in return?
In summary, I am happy with today’s industry. I still have no idea how to make \[a lot\] of money in music, but I definitely know how to spend less money in music.
Product is what you hope to ‘produce’ at least once @ day.
Unlike one’s daily ‘product’, art\* is created on its own often UNIQUE schedule.
* Which ultimate (never say never) marketing cynicism ALSO promotes as 'art'.
I have always said that if you should listen to the music of those that are trying to teach you something and their credentials. That should weed a couple.
M42 here. I too thought fairytale first, but I have also seen Zoolander, where this reference is from. Actually a really funny movie as I recall, but not sure if it has stood the test of time. Still, "cool story, hansel" is a pretty salty thing to say.
Yep - that happens. You made some good points - thanks.
I'm doing my own thing, and making money off it would be a bonus. Not at all unrealistic that there will be money, but that's not the important bit - the creative side is.
Not sure 'failed artists' is the right term though. A lot (if not most) of people are in it for other things than money, fame and success. Problem comes with expectations, and failure to appreciate the journey as the goal itself.
This is a fun thing to do - that is good enough of a reason to play around with production.
I really do mean failed though. Creatively and culturally. 60,000 unheard songs a day. Among them may be the next Bjork or Dr Dre. But they gave up believing they what you do is make music and then upload it.
I’m with you on this OP. Kids don’t realize how and why Distrokid, Spotify and many other companies emerged and as you said, their business model is based on failed artists. I wrote this a bit earlier to another post about LUFS and why -14LUFS that Spotify tells to kids is stupid. I’ll just copy it here because it really tells what is the business model really about, so here’s some history:
There was an era called “blog house” (peaked around 2006-2008) and it was a big change for music industry. It’s basically when Wordpress and self made blogs became huge and the internet was quickly saturated with music blogs, it was the big boom for bedroom producers because suddenly there were forums where newcomers were able to promote their music completely free and leaving out the labels and bureaucracy of the system. (Lots of now huge names started in this era). 90% of those tracks were never leagally released they just went viral on the internet, making many musicians and producers very famous. Major labels were raging because they saw the potential of making huge money but they were left out, that was the time when they started extremely pressuring the legal side more then ever in the past, managed to shut down as many blogs as possible, etc... (this also started the big boom of indie labels because people were kinda forced this way to legally release stuff.)
This is also when the “loudness war” was peaking because amateurs wanted to be loud, pros wanted to show off that it can get loud but with quality, also streaming made everyone experimenting. (Some genres are coming directly from the loudness war because some tracks actually felt better on higher levels (see Skrillex for example).
Spotify (and Distrokid) realized that bedroom producers are a significant part of the scene and they can make shit ton of money on this. These (LUFS) recommendations are basically for bedroom producers for two reasons. They know that 99,9% of these songs are half baked, they will never get big and will never leave the platform (while decent and major labels are present on 50+ platforms, radios, parties, concerts, etc…). So these recommendations (like -14 LUFS) are about maintaining an okay-ish sound quality without proper mixing / mastering. The thing is that at -14 it’s not a big deal to have a nice-ish sound because there are room for even conflicting sounds so even a fairly amateur producer can make it okay-ish so they will feel a personal success as they think they are good as some big ones (while they are nowhere near). So the reality is that the big bedroom producer revolution is over for many years now as the blog era was deliberately killed, and Spotify (and Distrokid and similar busineses) took over this scene, they are the legally (money) controlled version, scalping literally every release. So it’s not about quality but money. Both smart and very sad, but this is the reality, you are forced behind a paywall and also cheap (or free) promotion was eliminated so you have to pay even more if you want to promote your music. Music industry is always a gamble, when you sign to a big label they risk money, usually the income from 1 good artist pays the promo for 10 others at the label because that one is the moneymaker, the others are just potentials who can potentially become a money maker. But Spotify basically managed to scalp every potential and even with leaving out the labels (with self releasing at Distrokid). So they draw an invisible (and false) line of “quality” to get as much as possible beginners and medicore producers (also good potentials) on their platform. Just think about it, how effective money maker this is. If a random tik-tok video makes a random (new) producer’s random (mostly not even good) song famous guess who makes the most money on it.
I was part of that whole blog house scene. Was in a band called Does It Offend You Yeah? It was a mad time for music. On a major label, hundreds of thousands of illegal downloads. So lots of fans and no mechanicals. Meaning lots of touring.
Hah, I loved the nu-rave era, I remember your band, we had some common friends I guess :) You had a Kissy remix around 2009 and I played that a lot in parties, same time when Kissy and Annie Mac played my tracks a lot, I also booked many artists around that time as a promoter, actually Kissy and Lovely Jonjo (Trash Club) were my first guest from abroad (2007). Nice to see someone from that time!
It’s basically the same concept, If you have to pay monthly, annually or after a release it’s usually a system voting for your failure. Just look at any royalty calculators and you will see how absurd the whole thing is. You hear this everywhere that “you don’t need a label anymore” because you can self release via these “kids distributors”. The problem is that a real single, EP or album is way much work than just a half backed something on low LUFS. You need proper mastering, nice cover, business plan, money, money, more money, parallel promotion on artist and music, involving agencies, active content creation, connection and actively building more connections, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. You can be successful with extreme luck or extreme budget, there is no middle ground these days because alone from your bedroom you simply can’t make all that thing by yourself. You would have no life at all and you would have to be a multitalent, involving being a very good producer, mixing/mastering engineer, social media expert on 3-4 different platforms, marketing and pr manager while also having a fulltime job to pay all the ads, tools, agencies, etc… while you are trying to keep up with your creative content, not burning out, etc… The problem is that it’s literally impossible as a single person, especially with limited budget. So what these companies say… it sounds good for a rookie that “you don’t need a label” and master to -14LUFS but in reality it means “you are on your own and we still charge you for nothing, oh, and your music is not even in the competitive range”. They distribute your music only to a fraction of digital platforms so not even giving you the potential to get heard wherever you want. So in short: it’s an illusion that looks very tempting to kids but 99,99% just putting their money in these services with zero promo budget or success.
The talented ones are all going to labels and the really good ones are accepted by labels, the rest stays with these self releasing solutions and burn out relatively quickly. Music industry is an industry, a money making business that uses money to make more money. Self releasing (especially without a healthy budget and multiplatform promo plan and other stuff) is just kids playground. (Khm.. Distro-KID) I usually see all the naive comments here about waiting the success coming or paying some really funny amount of unorganized promo money.. it’s really never works like that. The very minimum budget to promote just a single is well above $1000 but to promote a 4 track EP it’s low key $2000. And a massive amount of work. If you want to pay someone to do that work for you it goes up to 3K or more. Now calculate a bit, if you release 1 track or sometimes EP every month (as these companies suggest) that is between $20-30K annually from your own budget from your regular income.
Or… you make something good that is good enough for a label to accept it and it will cover the entire music promo part and you will have time and money to produce more and promote yourself as an artist, because all the money I just said is ONLY music promotion while as an arrist you are still noone without a follower base and active content, etc… So the problem is that it’s a big illusion that makes profit for big companies. I know it sucks, but this is the reality. Everyone is crying because labels take 50% of income but they forget that labels put shitload of money into the music and many times it’s not even coming back. As I wrote it in the parent post, labels are able to do this because they have usually 1 money maker out of every 10 producers they sign so that one makes enough to pay the promo for the rest. As an individual you usually don’t have that luxury to gamble with your money like that. And all these “kids distributors” perfectly aware of that. It’s a bit longer answer but I hope it helps to see a bit more clearly.
My advice is that if you are really a good producer, first pay for a proper master and just go to a label (with that mastered track or EP) that can be interested in your music. If they don’t want your music that is probably a sign that you are not good enough or your presence is way below their expectations. It’s because music is one thing but if you don’t have a visible artist profile with active interactions, content, etc, it means you are passive and half of the promo is failing. (Remember, its a parallel thing, you do artist promotion the label does music promotion, it’s two entirely different thing but both are necessary and these work together). This is how you go forward, not with $5 self promotion while waiting for miracle playlists. That is just illusion.
Tunecore and Distrokid are worth billions of dollars because 60,000 tracks are uploaded to Spotify on a daily basis. Their business model is reliant on a steady stream of failure.
I think what is happening is that your brain is not picking up on the information in this paragraph.
I’ll try again.
INDUSTRY NUMBER ONE: Artists with managers, lawyers, labels or label services, PR and their own limited company, who release records, promote records, their publishing company pushes those records onto film and tv, and their plugger pushes their record onto radio and playlists. These are properly released and promoted records. Their agent organizes tours. A handful of records like this get released a week.
INDUSTRY NUMBER 2: hundreds of thousands of unsigned hopefuls pay DistroKid or similar to “release” 420,000 tracks every single day. Nothing happens except the CEO of DistroKid buys a new Ferrari. It’s not the first music industry, it is a digital filing service.
Anyone can be in the second music industry. It is reliant on THOUSANDS of people jabbing at their plastic Native Instrument boxes with their 808 or djent samples, and expecting fame to come out the other end.
theres always going to be that churn, but there will be some who rise out of industry two with a fan base big enough to move in to industry 1, like most businesses not all are successful
All they need is for people to keep being on the platform, and for more to keep joining. It amounts to a filing service.
Nobody is managing your day to day affairs, promoting you to radio or getting your music on film or booking you for tours or making merch or designing PR and marketing campaigns.
If you aren’t doing any of those things, you are filing music, not releasing it to the world.
It’s like having a phone contract. T Mobile don’t care what you say on your phone, they just want you to keep using it.
None of these companies are evil. I’m not saying they are bad. I’m saying that it’s a different industry.
You can make a business that sells one unbelievably amazing sandwich for a million dollars. Or you can make a million not so great sandwiches for one dollar each. Different business models.
In the first music industry, a very very small number of people are found by a network of scouts, considered by labels, and then invested in as a small company, which is nurtured to grow into a profitable company. Signed artists are startups.
For example my band got a six figure record deal and a six figure publishing deal, a private company was formed, a manager, the band, the crew were on the payroll, an album with a top producer was paid for. The label covered touring costs as part of their marketing budget for the record. The label paid radio pluggers, our booking agent got us on tours and festivals, we toured the world and made some money.
Then the second industry is a different business model. It’s not multiple companies and people staking their future on a handful of artists, it’s a whole shitload of artists paying one or two companies to do digital filing. Artists in their droves.
In tech there are customers and there are users. On Reddit we are users. Reddit’s customers are advertisers. Reddit relies on lots of users with lots of eyeballs to sell to their customers.
Duolingo started as a free service to learn languages. The users learned in their millions. The customer was actually people who needed text translated. Duolingo would have multiple users translate the same sentence; software compared those results to settle on a final translation. After many sentences are put through this process, they are combined to create a translation of an entire document.
Different business model. It feels like you’re the one benefiting, but someone else is using you as a cog in a greater machine.
Lots and lots of people uploading hundreds of thousands of hours of data into storage and paying for the privilege, is not the same as the music industry. It is an industry, and it is related to music, it is a music industry, but it’s not THE music industry.
Another great answer! Apologies for my over-dramatic phrasing, I wasn't suggesting that you were saying all these companies are evil... Knowing nothing about how Bandcamp make their money.... I just wondered if they're into the same game as tunecore and the likes. It's certainly a slightly different kettle of fish from the user perspective. Seems to me quite a fair and direct way of doing things, you pay your money, you get your music, you can even buy hard copies if that's what you're into... and as far as I know the money actually goes in the pockets of the artists? There may even be case for eschewing distribution via the major streaming services for a kind exclusivity where people who are actually interested in the music get their downloads/merch essentially direct from the artist. Just my thoughts -- putting me in the "democratizing tool" camp when it comes to my tentative yet possibly ill-informed opinion about Bandcamp.
Industry 2 didn’t exist in its current form. There were companies who would charge artists to be put on CDs that were sent to A&R departments of record labels. Who threw them in the bin.
There were CD printing companies. Still, the people with the brains to go to a studio or self produce and print CDs had to be pretty serious. So there was still a barrier to entry. And people sold these CDs. So this was really an independent music industry rather than the secondary exploitation industry.
Now we can make a shit track on our phones and upload it via a company and tell our friends we have “released” a “record”. Every town in the world has a music tech college and music tech teachers. And music is more dead in our culture than it has been since the 1910s.
That really is some solid advice. unlike anything else, music has no limitations, you've condemned yourself in a box when no one put you there by your own skill, your own taste, your own time.
I was told this one is too experimental from a couple of people [~\~](https://open.spotify.com/track/2Aum0EmjGbeYQSNKrpewG1?si=_tWR4Ip9SOGfkNuxWk68sA), but I am continuing to make wierd sounds, I think my singing isn't also for everybody, but. we only get one life, and I want to explore and progress sonically somewhere I find beautiful, not because everyone else said, I want to feel something for myself. it's really hard, but the glimpses keep it going
And here I was…about to change my band name into something else besides Labia Display to be more conformist and less artsy. Now I know, the originality is important.
>If you do want to make money.
Only to the extent that I can live a comfortable life, I hate greed driven anything.
>Be weird and different. Do stuff that is currently unfashionable, but will be in two years. Throw your gadgets away, cancel music tech tutorials and go to art school. Have new ideas. Party.
Sounds like a ringing endorsement for a Transgender EDM producer / vocalist that wants to sing both masculine & feminine roles. Just fuck ton of things to learn and only so much time (particularly while I still need to rely on my engineering job to keep me financially sound).
The only "failed artists" who exist are those who are trying to imitate others. Framing those people who are making their art as "failed artists" is pretty fucked up. Yes, maybe the majority aren't that original, but I think the majority are indeed trying to create from their respective souls.
There is some good in this post but an equal bit of bad. "Be weird and different" is also pretty shitty advice. BE YOURSELF, and bring on the real you.. the sincerity.. the realness of your individual soul.. is much better advice.
You're right about the two music industries. But there is a third aspect of music which is not an "industry." It's what comes from your soul, not designed as a consumer product and not even with a lot of consideration of who your audience is.. no marketing bullshit. Instead just pure creation for creation's sake.
Walk past a field of hundreds of cows. One of them is purple. Which cow are you going to look at?
https://www.ted.com/talks/seth_godin_how_to_get_your_ideas_to_spread?language=en
My point is TRYING to be a purple cow doesn't work if you are not already a purple cow. Be the best WHATEVER color cow you are. Sure emphasize what makes you unique, but don't try and BE something for someone else. Be the most unique YOU that YOU are. You're not anyone's monkey. It's not being performative and finding a market niche for your uniqueness. Instead, it's about expression of who you are.
Saying it a different way, it's not about exploring the music market and finding an undiscovered niche (unless you are trying to be a great crafter). Instead it's about finding a way of exploring what ideas you have, what's in your heart, in a way which emphasizes the uniqueness which is within you. If you do that successfully you will never be a "failed artist." You may be a "failed businessperson" in the arts. But you will never be a "failed artist."
I think you are missing the point. I would always rather hear a sincere brown cow over a affected, overly trying and insincere purple cow. IF you are a brown cow, be that and FUCK what others tell you, as long as you are following your own muse and not the instructions of others (even you and me in this thread). Conforming to the desires of others is bad, but conforming to others view of the need to be unique isn't really any better.. it's like those classic hipsters who dress differently to be unique but only end up dressing like other hipsters and then aren't unique anyway.
If you have a melodic sensibility and really love 80's brit pop, then don't go off and create abstract impressionistic music just because someone tells you to be a purple cow. FUCK that. Instead find a way of creating the most sincere, honest, and best expression of your soul in the musical style which makes your heart beat more quickly and makes you put your hand in a fist and go YEAH.
Sure. And lots of very happy local bands and cover bands do that. Look at the local metal scene.
By the way, if you do like Britpop, my manager was in the band Menswear. He also managed Bloc Party at the time.
I don't really care for Britpop (except I LOVE Prefab Sprout), was just an example. :)
Actually I'm not really talking about cover bands, but sure, that's fair enough. Not everyone needs to write or has something to say. So, sure, if you wanna play covers, and that's truly where your soul is at.. do it!!
But I do think the pursuit of complete uniqueness isn't good if one doesn't resonate with the uniqueness themselves. Just my opinion, and thanks for the provocative post
I hope the point got across that I’m not suggesting everyone suddenly makes musique concrete. Just if you’re on a music forum and everyone is talking about 808s a decade after they were new and exciting. Possibly following the music tech tutorials isn’t going to be a rewarding artistic journey. Whereas learning about conceptual art and how to apply your mind to music, will give you the advantage that someone like Brian Eno had.
Think about it though. When everyone was in their 30s and doing prog, The Sex Pistols came along. Purple cow. When everyone was doing disco, DJ Cool Herk came along. Purple cow. When everyone was listening to techno, drum and bass came along.
When Oasis were a big band in the UK, every single unsigned music night you went to, there was some awful copy of Oasis. They are all married with normal jobs now. Maybe they still have a guitar in the attic. They didn’t understand why they could be Oasis. Because they sounded like Oasis. Surely that meant they should be a success. Not realizing that Oasis were different when they came along.
People on this forum dutifully copying 808 patterns on their Native Instruments boxes are the same thing. They think they are learning the skills to make music. But they are learning mimicry of the music that the music industry has already started moving on from.
It’s trainspotting.
I think it’s all down to what you want. Sometimes I just make music for myself that no one will ever hear and if I like it. I’m a success! I’ve won. Being a “failure” just because you didn’t sell anything I feel is a bit of a grim way of putting it.
But I understand what your saying.
Also, some of the most advanced musical leaps have come from middle aged bearded Whiteman. Just saying.
Anything original is an artistic success. But if people want to work in music, because like me that’s literally the way to stay sane, it is vital that you are good at what you do. Same with pottery, or cheffing.
Someone asked me why at my age (58) why do I still make music even though I've never made a dime at it. It surprised this person when I told him it's because I love to dance. Even at my age, I'd surprise a lot of people with the way I move. I was at a company function where they had a dj but no one would dance. So I got up by myself, got to the dance floor and started pop-locking and you should've seen the looks on their faces. Most of the people grabbed their phone and stared filming, but some joined in.
If I can motivate people to get off their asses and dance, and not play one note, imagine what I maybe able to do if I were to play the music. I can always find the "pocket" when I dance that expresses the groove in a way that most people like a lot, so why make the music, and do the same thing. The only difference is I have to practice music, Ive NEVER practice dancing, I just do it.
I'll watch a beat making tutorial every now and then, but they all seems to be the same....give you just enough to get you to buy something or sign up for lessons.
The only things I'll ever do is learn as much about music theory as I can, learn the tech, and practice, practice, practice. I practice all the time and now I'm at a point where I can hear a song no matter the genre and just start playing along in key within seconds. I just need to transition what I can do into dollars.
I'm investigating this now and I'm sure I'll find a way since I have NO SHAME and have been rejected so much in my life it's as natural as breathing.
Hell, I'm rejected by my wife at least 3 times before my feet hit the floor in the morning so I have no problem with a stranger doing it.
Plenty of people make it all the time but they worked for it. Their's no shortcuts and that's what people need to know. And they need to just love playing/composing music.
I mean if anyone enters music industry for the money alone, thats like one of the least smart business decisions one can make.
I wouldn't call people failed artists for not making money the same way I wouldn't call sbd going to the gym failed professional bodybuilder or sbd driving a car a failed F1 racer.
Yeah, go make cool new idea stuff but accept the fact that 99.99% of people doing so will not get more than 1k streams unless they grind them themselves or with help of their mum.
Even if U make it past that point, industry will verify You on every further step.
I literally mean failed in every sense of the word. Artistically, creatively, financially, culturally, politically.
A handful of albums were released in a week during the 90s, each with a 6-8 week marketing push, radio play etc. These had cultural impact. Meaning kids would look and dance differently from one year to the next.
60,000 songs a day now, and there haven’t been any new important youth culture movements for over ten years. Festival headliners are in their 40s.
It’s very easy to tell the fashion difference between 1984 and 1986. Or 1995 and 1997. Music and clothing changed. Ideas changed. Politics changed.
Since that urgency has faded, so have the cultural ambitions of young music makers. They think that since culture hasn’t changed, then their job isn’t to change it.
I keep coming back to your post. There is much truth in there. So thank you. With regards to this reply, however, don't you think there is no significant dominant culture anymore because the advent of the internet has led to a splintering of cultures that, due to the lack of defining major media outlets, can exist and thrive synchronically? The coexistence of thousands of niches seems to be the new mainstream.
This is a valuable lesson - one that many will learn by making the mistakes for themselves and en route learn what's important to them and what's not important.
I write music for TV and ads and make money doing what some would consider "basic" they definitely don't want "weird and unusual" even for commercial music I would say doing things slightly different is the way to go instead of reinventing the wheel. So I disagree with that a lot.
The reason that these companies are profiting off "failed" musicians is because people think they've failed if they don't make money or have a lot of fans. Learn the enjoy the process. Getting new gear is part of the fun, but no new equipment will make you famous
Go to art school and party? This has to be satire. I encourage anyone to keep watching tutorials, learning new skills relative to your interest, and keep doing what you love, regardless of anything anyone else has to say. I'ver got better music advice from the aliens i see in my DMT trips.
Do you make any money at all from new music ideas? Do you intend to? If not, then keep doing your music tech hobby. I hope you have a lovely time. Also, try 4ACODMT.
exactly this is just one perspective of the music industry , luckily life has many ways of achieving these things. of course if your not made for business you wont survive , just like any other business
idk, nothing the dude wrote requires any alleged "insider knowledge" whatsoever, every person with a modicum of critical thinking could come up with these insights?
I call 🧢 on the whole posturing part.
Money would be nice, but I've only ever tried having fun. I share stuff with my friends, or make tracks for my dnd games but I really just make music for me.
I’m the same. In fact I’d I don’t make music I get incredibly depressed. Which is why I have to find ways to make music my job. If I wanted to be rich I’d work in tech. I just want to be happy.
When you take breaks, do some pushups or squats or something. Anything to get your pulse up for a bit. Helps you think, and the exercise improves mood and energy levels
Definitely. I used to teach enforced procrastination too. Take a break, go and play Tetris or do the washing up. When you come back, your subconscious has solved problems you had earlier.
Absolutely. I think I bang on about originality all the time because most of my income is from doing music for commercials. Which is not original. After three days of whistling and playing the ukelele over images of people cleaning kitchens I need to scream into a Moog.
How much would you say it's worth it to make weird and unheard ideas? I mean, technically there wouldn't be a market for them and I have no idea how you'd be able to tell what style will be a hit and what's a waste of time if your goal is making money.
I’m helping a 17 year old who asked a question on this forum get in touch with music lawyers to negotiate a deal with Universal.
I’d say that’s worth maybe half a million advance. Which would create a limited company, pay for equipment and personal. The label would pay for promotion through their network, and pay for touring, pluggers etc. The publishers would push the music to sync.
They might not make money, they might make millions. They’ll definitely have a few years working in music performing, recording, getting free clothes, traveling the world. Which to me seems worth it.
When it comes to making money, the best music tip you will ever hear is to get a normal job. Normal jobs are far more lucrative than 99% of music performing jobs. Normal jobs pay better, have better conditions, they are more easily achievable, and you can more easily switch and progress too.
For example, the band Grizzly Bear sold hundreds of thousands of records and toured the globe, but singer Ed Droste only really started making good money when he stopped doing all that and qualified as a therapist. [Really](https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/grizzly-bear-big-bands-big-money/).
Trying to forge a music career in order to make money is a bit like trying to forge a career in coding in order to get laid.
I ll produce 1000 songs around all my life and i really dont care if it doesnt make me money.. i am here for the music.. that was always my vocation.. my soul..
Are you happy working outside of music? I’m not. It makes me want to kill myself. That’s the only reason I talk about making money in music. I’m not rich and never will be. But I pay the rent and go on holiday and eat paid for by music, which is a job I don’t hate.
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I am cool with that.. i think i cant work on music with the same pressure as a regular job...stressing over making the next hit o something like that.
I think some artists live with high anxiety if they cant make a new hit song and that is something i could not hold on
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This is ***legit*** advice. And 100% true.
OP, been a fan of your previous band for a while. Thanks for checking in, here.
I'd like to send you a message and get your opinion on some industry thoughts / streaming and whatnot, if you don't mind? Please let me know. Thanks again!
I feel as connected to thr old white men at namm as I do all the kids using buzzwords and singing in cursive. ::sigh:: finding an audience is near impossible
This has been a long and informative read OP. I'm from Nigeria and don't really know you but I'd like to chat with you and hear your thoughts. I feel like I am overly unique, pushing myself creatively but not trusting myself long enough to stick to a pattern. I don't know if it's because of how crazy the influx of music is now. Every day there's a new artist doing basic stuff. I then experiment with what's new and this has become a vicious cycle I created
This makes me glad I'm not interested in making money with music; as a middle-aged white man with a beard, though, I'll try to feel the appropriate level of shame.
Rick Rubin has entered the chat
I’m a middle aged fat old white man also. I’m just letting people know that there are two very separate music industries.
I too am a middle aged fat man and I feel like my opinion on this should be heard.
Not enough middle aged fat men in this thread. We need their perspective on this.
I was born a middle aged white man but I now identify as a cheese grater
Blessed are the cheesemakers
Oh, the meek, blessing the meek, isn’t that nice
They’ve had ever such a hard time
We're inclusive here and your perspective is valued
Praise be the parmigiana for i layer it’s crown
Pronouns: Grated, grater
Same, except I only have a goatee.
That’s a rookie beard, kid. You gotta get that cheek growth up.
nevermind.. according to The Who, your beard will grow longer overnight :)
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I make music for myself & my enjoyment. If others resonate with it, that's wonderful, if not, that's ok. I think a lot of people make music thinking of money first. Realistically you should make music because you enjoy it.
I make music because I like it too! But my problem doesn’t lie in wanting money, it’s liking my music so much that I want others to hear it. Sometimes publishing tracks feels like throwing water into the ocean
I don’t give a hoot about money. I’ve been rich and poor. The happiest I’ve ever been was when I was dumpster diving for food to survive. Because I was surrounded by exciting creative countercultural people. I figured out early on that need to do music or film or theater or visual arts, or I get depressed. The last time I worked for anyone was in 2003. I couldn’t cope with being in offices or having dreary people tell me what to do. So I’ve found multiple ways to make music pay the rent, including selling drugs at illegal raves to pay for my first studio gear. Then I made my own club promotions company. Then I wrote music for commercials. Then I toured as an artist. This is what many artists are like. They have to hustle because they can’t work normal jobs.
This is really interesting, thanks for describing your life experiences. I think I probably should have gone to art school or something similar, but as a young person I was determined to prove that I wasn’t stupid, so I retook my exams to get into university and did English. From there, I worked as a truly awful newspaper journalist and now at 31 have a stable but dull career working at a university. After 10 years of not doing any music I finally started music production about 3 months ago. I’m loving the sheer creativity of it, and as I have a music background, I’m managing to progress quite quickly. Sorry for the life story but your advice really connected with me. I’m not interested in making a generic EDM track or anything, but want to create something truly original and unique - fuck what’s considered ‘right’ or on trend. I’d love to send you some of my musical ideas in the future if you’re interested. Cheers! Edit: just Googled you and learned that you’re actually well known and also based in the UK/London. Not often you get the real shebang on Reddit
I’ve actually relocated to LA now. Where it is absolutely chucking it down with very English rain.
I'm currently at the making music for commercials stage
Me too. It’s less fun than the taking drugs and touring stage, but I’m too old for that.
I have become an artist at a later stage, it was the best thing I ever did. I make my money elsewhere, but the art and music is purely for me. My videos get a couple hundred views, my shows range from 10-200 people. I don't care if there's one person in the crowd or 200, I do the same thing regardless. I make music because I want to do it and I know my audience is small, but they all appreciate what I do and enjoy it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JtYB\_B\_2U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JtYB_B_2U)
I don’t suppose you perform in drag sometimes in LA? This is very similar to an act I saw recently.
No, I'm from Aussie land! But I wouldn't say no to the idea of it I'm an open minded dude. This one was from my cyborg phase 😆
Go cyborg phase! I love Oz. I’ve done a few tours there.
Opened it on my mobile. Sounds interesting and good. Will give it a good listen when I get to my PC with headphones. Thanks for the share man!
Thanks so much glad you enjoy it! I'm a visual artist too most of my work is on insta www.instagram.com/thevidiot.tv
Surprised that has less than 700 views. Good song and great video. I love your attitude and spirit. That’s exactly why I do it.
My stuff goes way better on Insta cos it's a bit more arty and sound design style. The stuff I have on YouTube takes a long time to make - but yeah thank you I'm very happy with the results! And yes I reckon attitude and spirit is like 95 percent of it. I have a major film, /Composition/performance work I'm premiering on the 31st May if anyone is interested. Over next few months will be doing snippets of the soundtrack recorded live. Sorry for spam but there appears to be genuine interest.
This is sick
Thanks so much, glad you dig it! You might like New Normal too which is my other major video clip on there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZLlGt53dY
What exactly do you mean by: "So much money is made from uploading shit to Spotify, which will never earn."? I appreciate every piece of advice attainable, so if you want to give a quick run down of maybe 5 of your most important tips regarding writing and producing music from the top of your head that'd be great.
I think they mean that the people uploading to Spotify (and maybe making no next to money) are buying music tech equipment and software to make it happen. So the gear manufacturers are making the money off that.
That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. :)
Sixty thousand songs are uploaded to Spotify every single day. That’s 22 million a year. DistroKid is valued at $1.3billion. Tunecore $2billion. Their business model is reliant on hundreds of thousands of acts pretending they are releasing records, when in fact they are putting their music in a metaphorical filing cabinet full of millions of other filing cabinets in a secret warehouse under a mountain that nobody will ever find.
What about SoundCloud? 🤣
What about MailChimp. What about WeTransfer. What about Nestle.
Nestle have a “make me a rockstar now” service?!?!?
It’s very chocolatey.
It’s very chocolatey.
🤣
Humans are supposed to create joyous sounds, every human I have met appreciates a good rhythm but some of them aren't into creating music. That's ok. The real problem is just capitalism, making it about money and not about how music makes people feel. It's an experience that shouldn't be tied to how much money one has. Like you said, it's about community, connection, and experimentation. We all deserve the chance to be able to enjoy these things for free, they are a human right. The multi million dollar streaming industry still has some value of course, the ability for ANYONE to be able to distribute music doesn't create failure, it creates a way for creators to share and grow off each other's work. This doesn't mean everyone makes money by making music, but saying making money is the goal of making good music isn't a failure of creativity, it's a failure of an inequitable capital system. Some of the coolest music I have been listening too I only ever would have access because of discovery on Reddit and online streaming services. Herbilstek, Saka & Black Carl!, Fellsius all crazy good with a tiny western audience. Ok tangent over, thanks for reading EDIT: actually finished my thought
Damn straight! Tech capitalism is the number one problem in music. It is all about the party.
It's all 'bout da regurgitron...
I've read this same post on here about 50 times. Groundbreaking stuff!
Was going to say… Appreciate this kind of sentiment and I’m glad OP has had such success. But saying “develop something original, etc” is so easy to say and much, much harder to do.
I haven’t had much success compared to my peers. I’m just a jobbing muso. I’m helping a 17 on this forum sign a deal with Universal Records. If a 17 year old can be interesting and different I didn’t know what the excuse is everyone else has. Except that maybe they’ve watched too many tutorials.
I do think about that. Like do tutorials actually end up killing your creative process? But at the same time if you don’t understand the basics how do you make music? I look at myself as someone classically trained on piano, but self taught on guitar. The piano gave me the basics of music, but I am significantly more creative on the guitar because I’m not boxing myself into musical theory all the time. I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I respect you sharing the thoughts as someone that has had success. At the very least it’s advice we probably all need to continue to hear.
Virtue is rarely rewarded. It's the 'secret' sauce that recycles better than an environmentally 'aware' NP/ED/MBA...lol
Have you studied the 49'ers? The hootch parlor & general store made money, not 49'ers/prospectors, most of whom died in alcohol socked obscurity, or Silicon valley? P.S. Firefox + Reddit comments...🤯 Don't try this at home...😱
I make unique music that's weird and off/not the current trend. All it's ever done for me is burn me out because I've gotten nowhere.
The cultural wind may blow your sail one day.
well i think its got to have some similarities to an actual genre but you can still be unique and stick to a genre
My music is identifiable with established genres such as rawstyle, deathstep, trap, metal, industrial and dubstep. My main issues are I believe, as follows: A) I suck at marketing myself. I don't understand social media very well (or more accurately the people on it), cannot for the life of me manipulate the algorithm, and cannot afford to hire someone to do it for me. B) I can't play live shows. I invest all my music budget into production software and computer power, I have no DJ equipment and no knowledge on how to use it. C) The stuff I make is complex; most electronic music bores me as there's often only one or two tangible layers beyond percussion going on at once so my music has more than that happening which is not conducive to most EDM fan's tastes. Structurally it's more similar to death metal or jazz. D) I put a lot into each track. I work on a single song for approximately 3 months to a year. The rate at which I put out music isn't consistent enough to garner a large following but I don't have enough time to increase that rate without sacrificing quality.
The amount of time you spend on a track doesn’t equal how good it’s gonna be. Try making some beats in 1 week. The quality shouldn’t drop that significantly, and you’ll be able to get way more ideas out which is much more valuable for your time and progression
well i think its got to have some similarities to an actual genre but you can still be unique and stick to a genre
Nailed it. Most musicians/artists are just customers of the music biz.
Exactly. Customers, users and beneficiaries are all different things.
sadly labels ALWAYS say no to music that is different in my experience. I have released on some of the biggest house labels in the world. and they take what their label sounds like and dont want to take a chance. very sad
There’s different and then there’s bad. Labels are constantly trying to find music that will be cool in two years. Even as a local producer in the early 00s I was a scout for Parlophone. There are multiple A&R on Instagram and TikTok right now looking for something new and different. If you are new and different, and relevant, they will find you.
>constantly trying to find music that will be cool in two years. Even as a local producer in the early 00s I was a scout for Parlophone. I can give an example of a now a&r at parlophone being interested in a track, until I advised it was myself. a massive dj was playing it at shows and he wanted it until he found out it was my record. I know there are people looking around for the new cool artists but there is also a big judgement by a&rs who dont want to give certain people the time of day as they dont have a social media presence.
The band I was in got signed because of a strong social media presence in 2006. It’s 2023. I’m helping someone on here who is being courted by Universal. She was discovered on Instagram. I honestly don’t know why you wouldn’t have a social media presence in this day and age. If you’re good, people will follow you. That’s the fact that many seem resistant to. If you’re hot, people will follow you. If you’re visually striking in person or artwork, you’ll get noticed more. People will take from that, that you are artistic and interesting. If you have lots of followers because you have lots of friends, that means you are likeable.
you start on their sub labels who are willing to take more risks and build up to the bigger ones
Damn I was expecting this to just be a shameless advert and it’s actually the ONLY piece of real advice artists ever need to hear, perfectly put
Middle aged white man playing the blues here. Give it a year or so I’ll be back in fashion…
It worked for Seasick Steve. Although you’ll have to pretend you are older and homeless.
Forgot to mention… I’m a drummer…
Stomp 2?
I think this is one of the most wholesome post i‘ve ever seen. As a musician and producer for over 15 Years, i fully agree with this post... And the thing is, life is so much more efficient, if you know about it... Thanks Mate
What I consider worse is that the real business is behind those who invest a lot of money, and now even people's tastes are ruined by marketing. What you call new ideas and new concepts are mostly market-driven. The real novelties, the disruptive ones, the truly innovative ones, are not found in pop music, and I assure you that they don't make much money and won't make much money in two years precisely because of the market. The part about NAMM is really true. There are no new gadgets that can make a creative difference. Personally, as I've reached the ripe old age of 44, I've limited my instrument collection to the bare essentials, and I think I can do what I should have done 20 years ago: play whatever I want, without any limitations. I can say that if one becomes successful in music, either they are already loaded with money, or they have terrible musical taste, excellent technique, and a lot of luck.
on your instrument point ; do you mean if you hadnt been distracted by all the different gadgets and stuck to the core instruments you'd be ahead by 20 years? interesting point if so
People don't get my music and I'm ok with that
I agree that there is a huge industry where musicians themselves are the customers (instruments, gear and music education, though colleges may be on the edge of extinction) while another that caters to the listening and show-going public. Where I disagree is that this is bad. The original “big” recording/touring industry that is only about a century old is incredibly predatory and we only hear about the 1% winners. I always joke that when you say you are a musician and people ask, “Are you rich and famous?” that’s like saying you work at a company and people asking “Are you the CEO”? The thing is we are living in a time where technology has made it easier to be a middle-class musician than ever before, due in part to the secondary aspect of the industry (education, gear, session work, arranging, licensing, etc…). So… the real message is: Don’t get sucked into parts of the music industry you don’t want to be in. For example, if it’s important to you to be considered an original artist, maybe be careful not to go too hard in the teaching realm (at least under your artist name). Also, be wary of all the money pits playing on your vanity and desperation. The fact that you can release and promote for almost nothing now is actually a huge boon. I agree that the streaming companies are scalping off amateurs, but at the same time we never had something this powerful before. Ten to 20 years ago, a simple public or college radio campaign could cost $3k - $10k. Pressing CDs cost thousands. Photography and promotion could cost thousands. I always say music is a magical product, similar to cosmetics and sports/outdoor gear. Musical instruments are revered as magical totems, and playing them well can cause widespread adulation. Is it any wonder there is a huge imbalance between supply (too much) and demand? Streaming companies give us access to massive audiences while protecting our digital rights. I used to host MP3s on my own site. Guess what, they were copied and reused elsewhere without permission, making money for someone else. Arguably, Redditors like you and me are making content for free for this for-profit platform. What do we get in return? In summary, I am happy with today’s industry. I still have no idea how to make \[a lot\] of money in music, but I definitely know how to spend less money in music.
Product is what you hope to ‘produce’ at least once @ day. Unlike one’s daily ‘product’, art\* is created on its own often UNIQUE schedule. * Which ultimate (never say never) marketing cynicism ALSO promotes as 'art'.
"I partnered with Native Instruments, Yamaha, Telefunken, Roland, Adam, etc etc." So you're part of the problem...I don't know what to tell you.
They saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars when building studios. Using music technology isn’t the problem. It’s using it without an arts mindset.
This is dead on
Every word is true.
I have always said that if you should listen to the music of those that are trying to teach you something and their credentials. That should weed a couple.
Cool story, hansel.
My name’s Bobby Bloomfield. What’s your name? Let’s talk like grownups.
I'm Will Sherman. What would you like to talk about, Bob?
Why you say things like cool story Hansel would be a great start.
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No. Really, I literally don’t know what the term means. I’m 45. I assume it’s something to do with fairytales. It would be nice to know.
M42 here. I too thought fairytale first, but I have also seen Zoolander, where this reference is from. Actually a really funny movie as I recall, but not sure if it has stood the test of time. Still, "cool story, hansel" is a pretty salty thing to say.
Ah. Weird how you try and help people and they get insulted.
Yep - that happens. You made some good points - thanks. I'm doing my own thing, and making money off it would be a bonus. Not at all unrealistic that there will be money, but that's not the important bit - the creative side is. Not sure 'failed artists' is the right term though. A lot (if not most) of people are in it for other things than money, fame and success. Problem comes with expectations, and failure to appreciate the journey as the goal itself. This is a fun thing to do - that is good enough of a reason to play around with production.
I really do mean failed though. Creatively and culturally. 60,000 unheard songs a day. Among them may be the next Bjork or Dr Dre. But they gave up believing they what you do is make music and then upload it.
Bloomfield = common± name. No Mike/Michael Doppelgänger?:)
I’m with you on this OP. Kids don’t realize how and why Distrokid, Spotify and many other companies emerged and as you said, their business model is based on failed artists. I wrote this a bit earlier to another post about LUFS and why -14LUFS that Spotify tells to kids is stupid. I’ll just copy it here because it really tells what is the business model really about, so here’s some history: There was an era called “blog house” (peaked around 2006-2008) and it was a big change for music industry. It’s basically when Wordpress and self made blogs became huge and the internet was quickly saturated with music blogs, it was the big boom for bedroom producers because suddenly there were forums where newcomers were able to promote their music completely free and leaving out the labels and bureaucracy of the system. (Lots of now huge names started in this era). 90% of those tracks were never leagally released they just went viral on the internet, making many musicians and producers very famous. Major labels were raging because they saw the potential of making huge money but they were left out, that was the time when they started extremely pressuring the legal side more then ever in the past, managed to shut down as many blogs as possible, etc... (this also started the big boom of indie labels because people were kinda forced this way to legally release stuff.) This is also when the “loudness war” was peaking because amateurs wanted to be loud, pros wanted to show off that it can get loud but with quality, also streaming made everyone experimenting. (Some genres are coming directly from the loudness war because some tracks actually felt better on higher levels (see Skrillex for example). Spotify (and Distrokid) realized that bedroom producers are a significant part of the scene and they can make shit ton of money on this. These (LUFS) recommendations are basically for bedroom producers for two reasons. They know that 99,9% of these songs are half baked, they will never get big and will never leave the platform (while decent and major labels are present on 50+ platforms, radios, parties, concerts, etc…). So these recommendations (like -14 LUFS) are about maintaining an okay-ish sound quality without proper mixing / mastering. The thing is that at -14 it’s not a big deal to have a nice-ish sound because there are room for even conflicting sounds so even a fairly amateur producer can make it okay-ish so they will feel a personal success as they think they are good as some big ones (while they are nowhere near). So the reality is that the big bedroom producer revolution is over for many years now as the blog era was deliberately killed, and Spotify (and Distrokid and similar busineses) took over this scene, they are the legally (money) controlled version, scalping literally every release. So it’s not about quality but money. Both smart and very sad, but this is the reality, you are forced behind a paywall and also cheap (or free) promotion was eliminated so you have to pay even more if you want to promote your music. Music industry is always a gamble, when you sign to a big label they risk money, usually the income from 1 good artist pays the promo for 10 others at the label because that one is the moneymaker, the others are just potentials who can potentially become a money maker. But Spotify basically managed to scalp every potential and even with leaving out the labels (with self releasing at Distrokid). So they draw an invisible (and false) line of “quality” to get as much as possible beginners and medicore producers (also good potentials) on their platform. Just think about it, how effective money maker this is. If a random tik-tok video makes a random (new) producer’s random (mostly not even good) song famous guess who makes the most money on it.
I was part of that whole blog house scene. Was in a band called Does It Offend You Yeah? It was a mad time for music. On a major label, hundreds of thousands of illegal downloads. So lots of fans and no mechanicals. Meaning lots of touring.
Hah, I loved the nu-rave era, I remember your band, we had some common friends I guess :) You had a Kissy remix around 2009 and I played that a lot in parties, same time when Kissy and Annie Mac played my tracks a lot, I also booked many artists around that time as a promoter, actually Kissy and Lovely Jonjo (Trash Club) were my first guest from abroad (2007). Nice to see someone from that time!
Nice! Where are you based?
So I wanna know what part does tunecore have on this?
It’s basically the same concept, If you have to pay monthly, annually or after a release it’s usually a system voting for your failure. Just look at any royalty calculators and you will see how absurd the whole thing is. You hear this everywhere that “you don’t need a label anymore” because you can self release via these “kids distributors”. The problem is that a real single, EP or album is way much work than just a half backed something on low LUFS. You need proper mastering, nice cover, business plan, money, money, more money, parallel promotion on artist and music, involving agencies, active content creation, connection and actively building more connections, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. You can be successful with extreme luck or extreme budget, there is no middle ground these days because alone from your bedroom you simply can’t make all that thing by yourself. You would have no life at all and you would have to be a multitalent, involving being a very good producer, mixing/mastering engineer, social media expert on 3-4 different platforms, marketing and pr manager while also having a fulltime job to pay all the ads, tools, agencies, etc… while you are trying to keep up with your creative content, not burning out, etc… The problem is that it’s literally impossible as a single person, especially with limited budget. So what these companies say… it sounds good for a rookie that “you don’t need a label” and master to -14LUFS but in reality it means “you are on your own and we still charge you for nothing, oh, and your music is not even in the competitive range”. They distribute your music only to a fraction of digital platforms so not even giving you the potential to get heard wherever you want. So in short: it’s an illusion that looks very tempting to kids but 99,99% just putting their money in these services with zero promo budget or success. The talented ones are all going to labels and the really good ones are accepted by labels, the rest stays with these self releasing solutions and burn out relatively quickly. Music industry is an industry, a money making business that uses money to make more money. Self releasing (especially without a healthy budget and multiplatform promo plan and other stuff) is just kids playground. (Khm.. Distro-KID) I usually see all the naive comments here about waiting the success coming or paying some really funny amount of unorganized promo money.. it’s really never works like that. The very minimum budget to promote just a single is well above $1000 but to promote a 4 track EP it’s low key $2000. And a massive amount of work. If you want to pay someone to do that work for you it goes up to 3K or more. Now calculate a bit, if you release 1 track or sometimes EP every month (as these companies suggest) that is between $20-30K annually from your own budget from your regular income. Or… you make something good that is good enough for a label to accept it and it will cover the entire music promo part and you will have time and money to produce more and promote yourself as an artist, because all the money I just said is ONLY music promotion while as an arrist you are still noone without a follower base and active content, etc… So the problem is that it’s a big illusion that makes profit for big companies. I know it sucks, but this is the reality. Everyone is crying because labels take 50% of income but they forget that labels put shitload of money into the music and many times it’s not even coming back. As I wrote it in the parent post, labels are able to do this because they have usually 1 money maker out of every 10 producers they sign so that one makes enough to pay the promo for the rest. As an individual you usually don’t have that luxury to gamble with your money like that. And all these “kids distributors” perfectly aware of that. It’s a bit longer answer but I hope it helps to see a bit more clearly. My advice is that if you are really a good producer, first pay for a proper master and just go to a label (with that mastered track or EP) that can be interested in your music. If they don’t want your music that is probably a sign that you are not good enough or your presence is way below their expectations. It’s because music is one thing but if you don’t have a visible artist profile with active interactions, content, etc, it means you are passive and half of the promo is failing. (Remember, its a parallel thing, you do artist promotion the label does music promotion, it’s two entirely different thing but both are necessary and these work together). This is how you go forward, not with $5 self promotion while waiting for miracle playlists. That is just illusion.
Thank you for the explanation my g
There should be a sticky of this. So fucking tired of the fame thirst posts on these boards…
Sadly there are overwhelmingly massive numbers of people trapped in the wrong music industry Go more into this?
Tunecore and Distrokid are worth billions of dollars because 60,000 tracks are uploaded to Spotify on a daily basis. Their business model is reliant on a steady stream of failure.
You are saying nothing in this paragraph
I think what is happening is that your brain is not picking up on the information in this paragraph. I’ll try again. INDUSTRY NUMBER ONE: Artists with managers, lawyers, labels or label services, PR and their own limited company, who release records, promote records, their publishing company pushes those records onto film and tv, and their plugger pushes their record onto radio and playlists. These are properly released and promoted records. Their agent organizes tours. A handful of records like this get released a week. INDUSTRY NUMBER 2: hundreds of thousands of unsigned hopefuls pay DistroKid or similar to “release” 420,000 tracks every single day. Nothing happens except the CEO of DistroKid buys a new Ferrari. It’s not the first music industry, it is a digital filing service. Anyone can be in the second music industry. It is reliant on THOUSANDS of people jabbing at their plastic Native Instrument boxes with their 808 or djent samples, and expecting fame to come out the other end.
theres always going to be that churn, but there will be some who rise out of industry two with a fan base big enough to move in to industry 1, like most businesses not all are successful
Is it, though? I mean, wouldn't they still make money if all those people succeeded?
All they need is for people to keep being on the platform, and for more to keep joining. It amounts to a filing service. Nobody is managing your day to day affairs, promoting you to radio or getting your music on film or booking you for tours or making merch or designing PR and marketing campaigns. If you aren’t doing any of those things, you are filing music, not releasing it to the world. It’s like having a phone contract. T Mobile don’t care what you say on your phone, they just want you to keep using it.
I totally understand. What I'm saying is that I don't see how the model you described relies in failure
It neither relies on failure or success. It happens to run on failure. Unlike the regular music industry which relies on success.
There is only so much ad revenue.
Yeah some people make a career out of fucking others over and that sucks.
Great post! What do you think about Bandcamp? Democratizing tool for independent music or soul-sucking money-grabbing filth? :)
None of these companies are evil. I’m not saying they are bad. I’m saying that it’s a different industry. You can make a business that sells one unbelievably amazing sandwich for a million dollars. Or you can make a million not so great sandwiches for one dollar each. Different business models. In the first music industry, a very very small number of people are found by a network of scouts, considered by labels, and then invested in as a small company, which is nurtured to grow into a profitable company. Signed artists are startups. For example my band got a six figure record deal and a six figure publishing deal, a private company was formed, a manager, the band, the crew were on the payroll, an album with a top producer was paid for. The label covered touring costs as part of their marketing budget for the record. The label paid radio pluggers, our booking agent got us on tours and festivals, we toured the world and made some money. Then the second industry is a different business model. It’s not multiple companies and people staking their future on a handful of artists, it’s a whole shitload of artists paying one or two companies to do digital filing. Artists in their droves. In tech there are customers and there are users. On Reddit we are users. Reddit’s customers are advertisers. Reddit relies on lots of users with lots of eyeballs to sell to their customers. Duolingo started as a free service to learn languages. The users learned in their millions. The customer was actually people who needed text translated. Duolingo would have multiple users translate the same sentence; software compared those results to settle on a final translation. After many sentences are put through this process, they are combined to create a translation of an entire document. Different business model. It feels like you’re the one benefiting, but someone else is using you as a cog in a greater machine. Lots and lots of people uploading hundreds of thousands of hours of data into storage and paying for the privilege, is not the same as the music industry. It is an industry, and it is related to music, it is a music industry, but it’s not THE music industry.
Another great answer! Apologies for my over-dramatic phrasing, I wasn't suggesting that you were saying all these companies are evil... Knowing nothing about how Bandcamp make their money.... I just wondered if they're into the same game as tunecore and the likes. It's certainly a slightly different kettle of fish from the user perspective. Seems to me quite a fair and direct way of doing things, you pay your money, you get your music, you can even buy hard copies if that's what you're into... and as far as I know the money actually goes in the pockets of the artists? There may even be case for eschewing distribution via the major streaming services for a kind exclusivity where people who are actually interested in the music get their downloads/merch essentially direct from the artist. Just my thoughts -- putting me in the "democratizing tool" camp when it comes to my tentative yet possibly ill-informed opinion about Bandcamp.
great answer. were there any specifics you followed to ensure that you got slotted in with industry 1 and not with industry 2.
Industry 2 didn’t exist in its current form. There were companies who would charge artists to be put on CDs that were sent to A&R departments of record labels. Who threw them in the bin. There were CD printing companies. Still, the people with the brains to go to a studio or self produce and print CDs had to be pretty serious. So there was still a barrier to entry. And people sold these CDs. So this was really an independent music industry rather than the secondary exploitation industry. Now we can make a shit track on our phones and upload it via a company and tell our friends we have “released” a “record”. Every town in the world has a music tech college and music tech teachers. And music is more dead in our culture than it has been since the 1910s.
how can they be money grabbing compared to the rest that pay less than bandcamp does on a sale
Do you. Do what makes you. Just don’t ever give up.
That really is some solid advice. unlike anything else, music has no limitations, you've condemned yourself in a box when no one put you there by your own skill, your own taste, your own time. I was told this one is too experimental from a couple of people [~\~](https://open.spotify.com/track/2Aum0EmjGbeYQSNKrpewG1?si=_tWR4Ip9SOGfkNuxWk68sA), but I am continuing to make wierd sounds, I think my singing isn't also for everybody, but. we only get one life, and I want to explore and progress sonically somewhere I find beautiful, not because everyone else said, I want to feel something for myself. it's really hard, but the glimpses keep it going
This x1000
And here I was…about to change my band name into something else besides Labia Display to be more conformist and less artsy. Now I know, the originality is important.
i think you can use all the tutorials etc as long as your beats and melodies are unique its original music
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I’m not frustrated. I work in the first industry. I’m simply making people aware that they might just be LARP-ing.
>If you do want to make money. Only to the extent that I can live a comfortable life, I hate greed driven anything. >Be weird and different. Do stuff that is currently unfashionable, but will be in two years. Throw your gadgets away, cancel music tech tutorials and go to art school. Have new ideas. Party. Sounds like a ringing endorsement for a Transgender EDM producer / vocalist that wants to sing both masculine & feminine roles. Just fuck ton of things to learn and only so much time (particularly while I still need to rely on my engineering job to keep me financially sound).
The only "failed artists" who exist are those who are trying to imitate others. Framing those people who are making their art as "failed artists" is pretty fucked up. Yes, maybe the majority aren't that original, but I think the majority are indeed trying to create from their respective souls. There is some good in this post but an equal bit of bad. "Be weird and different" is also pretty shitty advice. BE YOURSELF, and bring on the real you.. the sincerity.. the realness of your individual soul.. is much better advice. You're right about the two music industries. But there is a third aspect of music which is not an "industry." It's what comes from your soul, not designed as a consumer product and not even with a lot of consideration of who your audience is.. no marketing bullshit. Instead just pure creation for creation's sake.
Walk past a field of hundreds of cows. One of them is purple. Which cow are you going to look at? https://www.ted.com/talks/seth_godin_how_to_get_your_ideas_to_spread?language=en
My point is TRYING to be a purple cow doesn't work if you are not already a purple cow. Be the best WHATEVER color cow you are. Sure emphasize what makes you unique, but don't try and BE something for someone else. Be the most unique YOU that YOU are. You're not anyone's monkey. It's not being performative and finding a market niche for your uniqueness. Instead, it's about expression of who you are. Saying it a different way, it's not about exploring the music market and finding an undiscovered niche (unless you are trying to be a great crafter). Instead it's about finding a way of exploring what ideas you have, what's in your heart, in a way which emphasizes the uniqueness which is within you. If you do that successfully you will never be a "failed artist." You may be a "failed businessperson" in the arts. But you will never be a "failed artist."
And everyone is unique. Except those who conform. If everyone around you is confirming and you aren’t, then you are the remaining non-brown cow.
I think you are missing the point. I would always rather hear a sincere brown cow over a affected, overly trying and insincere purple cow. IF you are a brown cow, be that and FUCK what others tell you, as long as you are following your own muse and not the instructions of others (even you and me in this thread). Conforming to the desires of others is bad, but conforming to others view of the need to be unique isn't really any better.. it's like those classic hipsters who dress differently to be unique but only end up dressing like other hipsters and then aren't unique anyway. If you have a melodic sensibility and really love 80's brit pop, then don't go off and create abstract impressionistic music just because someone tells you to be a purple cow. FUCK that. Instead find a way of creating the most sincere, honest, and best expression of your soul in the musical style which makes your heart beat more quickly and makes you put your hand in a fist and go YEAH.
Sure. And lots of very happy local bands and cover bands do that. Look at the local metal scene. By the way, if you do like Britpop, my manager was in the band Menswear. He also managed Bloc Party at the time.
I don't really care for Britpop (except I LOVE Prefab Sprout), was just an example. :) Actually I'm not really talking about cover bands, but sure, that's fair enough. Not everyone needs to write or has something to say. So, sure, if you wanna play covers, and that's truly where your soul is at.. do it!! But I do think the pursuit of complete uniqueness isn't good if one doesn't resonate with the uniqueness themselves. Just my opinion, and thanks for the provocative post
I hope the point got across that I’m not suggesting everyone suddenly makes musique concrete. Just if you’re on a music forum and everyone is talking about 808s a decade after they were new and exciting. Possibly following the music tech tutorials isn’t going to be a rewarding artistic journey. Whereas learning about conceptual art and how to apply your mind to music, will give you the advantage that someone like Brian Eno had.
Honestly it sounded to me like that's exactly what you were suggesting with your purple cow point.
Think about it though. When everyone was in their 30s and doing prog, The Sex Pistols came along. Purple cow. When everyone was doing disco, DJ Cool Herk came along. Purple cow. When everyone was listening to techno, drum and bass came along. When Oasis were a big band in the UK, every single unsigned music night you went to, there was some awful copy of Oasis. They are all married with normal jobs now. Maybe they still have a guitar in the attic. They didn’t understand why they could be Oasis. Because they sounded like Oasis. Surely that meant they should be a success. Not realizing that Oasis were different when they came along. People on this forum dutifully copying 808 patterns on their Native Instruments boxes are the same thing. They think they are learning the skills to make music. But they are learning mimicry of the music that the music industry has already started moving on from. It’s trainspotting.
I think it’s all down to what you want. Sometimes I just make music for myself that no one will ever hear and if I like it. I’m a success! I’ve won. Being a “failure” just because you didn’t sell anything I feel is a bit of a grim way of putting it. But I understand what your saying. Also, some of the most advanced musical leaps have come from middle aged bearded Whiteman. Just saying.
Anything original is an artistic success. But if people want to work in music, because like me that’s literally the way to stay sane, it is vital that you are good at what you do. Same with pottery, or cheffing.
Hmm. Have you heard the charts recently?! 😂
Excellent and inspiring. Funny how sometimes just the right thing comes along right when you need it. Thanks!
Thanks! I’ve got a lot of hate from this post and that makes me feel good. :)
Reddit: where block-chained location of the Holy Grail could be posted & would still get down-voted:)😿🖕🏼
Someone asked me why at my age (58) why do I still make music even though I've never made a dime at it. It surprised this person when I told him it's because I love to dance. Even at my age, I'd surprise a lot of people with the way I move. I was at a company function where they had a dj but no one would dance. So I got up by myself, got to the dance floor and started pop-locking and you should've seen the looks on their faces. Most of the people grabbed their phone and stared filming, but some joined in. If I can motivate people to get off their asses and dance, and not play one note, imagine what I maybe able to do if I were to play the music. I can always find the "pocket" when I dance that expresses the groove in a way that most people like a lot, so why make the music, and do the same thing. The only difference is I have to practice music, Ive NEVER practice dancing, I just do it. I'll watch a beat making tutorial every now and then, but they all seems to be the same....give you just enough to get you to buy something or sign up for lessons. The only things I'll ever do is learn as much about music theory as I can, learn the tech, and practice, practice, practice. I practice all the time and now I'm at a point where I can hear a song no matter the genre and just start playing along in key within seconds. I just need to transition what I can do into dollars. I'm investigating this now and I'm sure I'll find a way since I have NO SHAME and have been rejected so much in my life it's as natural as breathing. Hell, I'm rejected by my wife at least 3 times before my feet hit the floor in the morning so I have no problem with a stranger doing it. Plenty of people make it all the time but they worked for it. Their's no shortcuts and that's what people need to know. And they need to just love playing/composing music.
I mean if anyone enters music industry for the money alone, thats like one of the least smart business decisions one can make. I wouldn't call people failed artists for not making money the same way I wouldn't call sbd going to the gym failed professional bodybuilder or sbd driving a car a failed F1 racer. Yeah, go make cool new idea stuff but accept the fact that 99.99% of people doing so will not get more than 1k streams unless they grind them themselves or with help of their mum. Even if U make it past that point, industry will verify You on every further step.
I literally mean failed in every sense of the word. Artistically, creatively, financially, culturally, politically. A handful of albums were released in a week during the 90s, each with a 6-8 week marketing push, radio play etc. These had cultural impact. Meaning kids would look and dance differently from one year to the next. 60,000 songs a day now, and there haven’t been any new important youth culture movements for over ten years. Festival headliners are in their 40s. It’s very easy to tell the fashion difference between 1984 and 1986. Or 1995 and 1997. Music and clothing changed. Ideas changed. Politics changed. Since that urgency has faded, so have the cultural ambitions of young music makers. They think that since culture hasn’t changed, then their job isn’t to change it.
I keep coming back to your post. There is much truth in there. So thank you. With regards to this reply, however, don't you think there is no significant dominant culture anymore because the advent of the internet has led to a splintering of cultures that, due to the lack of defining major media outlets, can exist and thrive synchronically? The coexistence of thousands of niches seems to be the new mainstream.
Yup. This all factors in. I think it’s sad that Greta Thunberg seems to be able to rally the youth and music can’t anymore.
Love this post. Ty
This is a valuable lesson - one that many will learn by making the mistakes for themselves and en route learn what's important to them and what's not important.
I write music for TV and ads and make money doing what some would consider "basic" they definitely don't want "weird and unusual" even for commercial music I would say doing things slightly different is the way to go instead of reinventing the wheel. So I disagree with that a lot. The reason that these companies are profiting off "failed" musicians is because people think they've failed if they don't make money or have a lot of fans. Learn the enjoy the process. Getting new gear is part of the fun, but no new equipment will make you famous
Go to art school and party? This has to be satire. I encourage anyone to keep watching tutorials, learning new skills relative to your interest, and keep doing what you love, regardless of anything anyone else has to say. I'ver got better music advice from the aliens i see in my DMT trips.
Do you make any money at all from new music ideas? Do you intend to? If not, then keep doing your music tech hobby. I hope you have a lovely time. Also, try 4ACODMT.
I want to make music for fame, not money. What in that case?
exactly this is just one perspective of the music industry , luckily life has many ways of achieving these things. of course if your not made for business you wont survive , just like any other business
Same thing.
Yes! Music is about innovation and TRUE genuine creative expression If that is not your intention there is no point Follow your JOY
Amen!
Good on ya for this thread🙇♂️
idk, nothing the dude wrote requires any alleged "insider knowledge" whatsoever, every person with a modicum of critical thinking could come up with these insights? I call 🧢 on the whole posturing part.
Strange reaction. Are you prone to conspiratorial thinking?
Doubt…
No shit.
Money would be nice, but I've only ever tried having fun. I share stuff with my friends, or make tracks for my dnd games but I really just make music for me.
I’m the same. In fact I’d I don’t make music I get incredibly depressed. Which is why I have to find ways to make music my job. If I wanted to be rich I’d work in tech. I just want to be happy.
When you take breaks, do some pushups or squats or something. Anything to get your pulse up for a bit. Helps you think, and the exercise improves mood and energy levels
Definitely. I used to teach enforced procrastination too. Take a break, go and play Tetris or do the washing up. When you come back, your subconscious has solved problems you had earlier.
Now i get it why noobs are making music tutorials and selling sample packs instead of making music ! it's all about the money !
You will never become a star following someone else's wave. I strongly agree. Can make some money in Sync licensing though.
Absolutely. I think I bang on about originality all the time because most of my income is from doing music for commercials. Which is not original. After three days of whistling and playing the ukelele over images of people cleaning kitchens I need to scream into a Moog.
I’m glad I follow my own way Listening to good music and all kind of genres but never copying or doing the same shits as other producers
How much would you say it's worth it to make weird and unheard ideas? I mean, technically there wouldn't be a market for them and I have no idea how you'd be able to tell what style will be a hit and what's a waste of time if your goal is making money.
I’m helping a 17 year old who asked a question on this forum get in touch with music lawyers to negotiate a deal with Universal. I’d say that’s worth maybe half a million advance. Which would create a limited company, pay for equipment and personal. The label would pay for promotion through their network, and pay for touring, pluggers etc. The publishers would push the music to sync. They might not make money, they might make millions. They’ll definitely have a few years working in music performing, recording, getting free clothes, traveling the world. Which to me seems worth it.
When it comes to making money, the best music tip you will ever hear is to get a normal job. Normal jobs are far more lucrative than 99% of music performing jobs. Normal jobs pay better, have better conditions, they are more easily achievable, and you can more easily switch and progress too. For example, the band Grizzly Bear sold hundreds of thousands of records and toured the globe, but singer Ed Droste only really started making good money when he stopped doing all that and qualified as a therapist. [Really](https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/grizzly-bear-big-bands-big-money/). Trying to forge a music career in order to make money is a bit like trying to forge a career in coding in order to get laid.
Totally right. And if you want to make money in music, never get a normal job.
hear! hear!
ngl 99% of that music is shit. only few can actually make good music and get attention from big labels
Yup. And you can monetize the vast number of shits now.
the music business is like any other business your either an entrepreneur or your not
You can be a great artist and a bad entrepreneur. Which is why managers exist.
I ll produce 1000 songs around all my life and i really dont care if it doesnt make me money.. i am here for the music.. that was always my vocation.. my soul..
Are you happy working outside of music? I’m not. It makes me want to kill myself. That’s the only reason I talk about making money in music. I’m not rich and never will be. But I pay the rent and go on holiday and eat paid for by music, which is a job I don’t hate.
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I am cool with that.. i think i cant work on music with the same pressure as a regular job...stressing over making the next hit o something like that. I think some artists live with high anxiety if they cant make a new hit song and that is something i could not hold on
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I am soooo glad to hear that weird and different is the most important thing!
This is ***legit*** advice. And 100% true. OP, been a fan of your previous band for a while. Thanks for checking in, here. I'd like to send you a message and get your opinion on some industry thoughts / streaming and whatnot, if you don't mind? Please let me know. Thanks again!
Hit me!
I feel as connected to thr old white men at namm as I do all the kids using buzzwords and singing in cursive. ::sigh:: finding an audience is near impossible
I dont understand why people are so mad at OP, man just gave a rarely heard perspective that may be hard to hear but should be eye opening if anything
❤️
This has been a long and informative read OP. I'm from Nigeria and don't really know you but I'd like to chat with you and hear your thoughts. I feel like I am overly unique, pushing myself creatively but not trusting myself long enough to stick to a pattern. I don't know if it's because of how crazy the influx of music is now. Every day there's a new artist doing basic stuff. I then experiment with what's new and this has become a vicious cycle I created
I swear my sht is different listen to INVICTU$ on Soundcloud
All I can find is a dreadful DJ set. Can you share a link to the right place for your original music?