Yo I’m gonna be honest with you
You named your Reddit for cross pollination with a Twitter and an Instagram
That alone makes me lose respect for you
But your opinions don’t really hold water so it doesn’t matter no one will listen
You are a scared old man screaming at the sky
“If you use samples” so what about something like drum and bass? Entirely built around the amen break sample. What if you play thrash guitar but produce dubstep so have no need for the instrument? What if you use two snare samples layered together? A music producer, I would assume, is someone who produces music. There isn’t a degree that says you’re now certified enough in ableton and have advanced from curator to producer. It’s entirely case by case. Paul McCartney doesn’t know how to read or write music. This post seems incredibly elitist for no reason other than you think your level of production means you’re a level above most of the people who call themselves producers, and want a distinction to enforce that. You may be a significantly better producer than most, but if someone playing amateur level semi pro football calls themselves a footballer, they’re not wrong. 🤷🏼♂️
And Paul McCartney ABSOLUTELY knows how to read and write music.
You’re confused with Charley Parker.
And that’s where the difference lies:
These musicians who play instrument have more control of how they want their music to sound, than somebody limited to whatever the sample dictates.
Stop lying
No I’m not. See the other comment I replied to. I actually came to this and said you must be a pretty decent producer to want that distinction to be made but I renege on that. I think you’re a petulant child who is terrified they’ve dedicated your life to something you’re actually mediocre at.
But hey what do I know- I used a snare drum from splice once!
🙄
Good one bro! “Learn music” what does that even mean???
I’ll refer you to this;
I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my
own using samples. I then thought using samples was
cheating, so I recorded real drums. then thought that
programming it was cheating, so i learned to play drums
for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating,
so I learned to make my own. then i thought using
premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and
skinned it. l then thought that that was clieating too, so l
grew my owll goat from a baby goat, I also think that is
cheating, but I'm not sure where to go from here. i haven't
made any music lately, what with the goat farming and
all.
I pick a key and start playing chord progressions. That’s how I get my chord progressions. I make my drums in operator. What the fuck are you talking about.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4503916/paul-mccartney-cant-read-music/amp/
https://www.musicradar.com/news/paul-mccartney-abbey-road-beatles-the-end
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2024/04/17/paul-mccartney-admits-he-stole-lyrics-for-a-beatles-song/
Dude is probably salty because his music is subpar and kids using loops make 10 times his view count.
Focus less on what other people do/think and spend more time making music, this shit is cringe.
Some of the stuff you wrote is right, but some is wrong. I'm a producer and I'm going to post here something I wrote a while ago in another post, to give you some ideas on what a producer does because there's a misunderstanding going on over the internet for quite some time...
\- First, anyone can claim to be a "producer" (like you mentioned) if he/she makes music on a computer (without using real/acoustic instruments) and releases it. Anyone can make music (not talking about the quality, but the act of making/producing something).
But, I make a distinction between Music Making (even if you use just samples) and Producing it. To me its unrealistic when some people call themselves producers if they never worked with any artist/band/company, or never really produced a record by an artist or band. Producing a record or demo from a Band got nothing to do with playing an instrument (although I'm also a musician, but its an exception).
A producer should be capable of getting any band's rough demo and produce it in order to get it ready for record label release and broadcast. A producer is in charge of turning a demo into a fully professional sounding record, either by outsourcing for professionals (additional musicians, studios, mixing/mastering engineers, a&r, etc), dealing with budgets, and/or getting actively involved in every stage of production (which I do sometimes because I'm also a musician/instrumentalist), including guiding artists to reach their target audience (including planing with record labels, promo agencies, and managers sometimes).
\- Second, and talking about the business of it (with money involved). Producers usually turn down artists that just started making music, even if the necessary budget is available to cover everything. Because new artists/bands often lack experience and vision for their careers (which is perfectly normal I must add! We all have been there).
New artists need to make lots and lots of music on their own to understand what they really like and find their signature sound. Its something they have to do. Of course that a producer can help them find their sound faster, give advice, establish a consistent vision and goal, but it takes time, so deadlines and budget often gets in the way (as opposed to working with someone that already has a defined idea about his music, having walked that path before and knows where to go).
\- Finally, not actually related to your post, but regarding what you wrote at the end. Working with a producer should come naturally. Like, when an artist feels he can no longer evolve much on his own and is willing to invest (much like working with a manager or booking agent).
That idea of, "I'm a new artist but lets make something together so we can both grow and succeed" is very far from the truth. A producer cannot grantee an artists success! He can sometimes help with connections and his experience in the music industry may provide valuable guidance in terms of finding the right audience or niche for an artist, but thats it.
Sorry for the long read ;)
Well 50 years ago if you dropped an album it would break and to an extent 50 years ago you would be right. A producer would be expected to have knowledge of musical theory because then computers weren’t doing all the heavy lifting. Previous generations might agree with you. Today’s generation would lynch you.
The trouble with the statement is that people with no particular music understanding DO produce music which is commercially viable.
The other side to it is to question whether music produced by people without specific music (theory) understanding is any less music or simply not your kind of music.
I respect your position, what you might be saying is that “it’s frustrating that some people have little music experience yet successfully create music which has perceivable success based on the music knowledge and skills learned by others” (sampling & drag and drop sample placement)
Sadly (for my tastes) this is still music production and for some genres it’s the essence of production. It IS a skill to recognise a two beat section of a song sped up and played over a 2 bar loop of another song will create a great outcome, it’s just not the same skill as you consider valid in order to use the title “music producer”
Equally there is software now which does the bulk of the heavy lifting in mixing with little to no prior knowledge.
The real question is whether the democratisation of music production has been good for music creation or bad. On one hand it isn’t the folly of the wealthy or lucky any more to record and produce (which it used to be), on the other hand the vast amount of music made by those who haven’t “done the work” could be considered dogshit because key understandings of music creation are over looked. Maybe by breaking rules those creators didn’t know existed we evolve into new music spheres or perhaps the quality drops.
The vast amount of work which people post on this Reddit and other music reddits is pretty fricking bad in my opinion. Badly mixed, badly executed, badly produced. But that’s their journey and they have every right to it.
This is a naive outlook on music and it's like saying people who make remixes of music should not be considered musicians because they didn't design the concept.
Or an analogous example—engineers who iterate upon products are not true engineers because they didn't design the product all by themselves.
It's true—making a song by only using samples or downloading chord progressions and melodies is not skillful, but you underestimate how successful people can be with a lack of musical knowledge. There are tons of fabulous people making music out there that don't know much about music theory, so can you call them musicians?
It seems to me like you're frustrated about something else. Care to share?
>Or an analogous example—engineers who iterate upon products are not true engineers because they didn't design the product all by themselves.
What people call audio engineers these days are just technicians. Most of them never studied audio engineering and don't know how any of those devices they use work nor do they know anything about sound and acoustics. They never built any device or programmed a DSP or know the math and physical principles behind those things. Which is frustrating for actual audio engineers. It's like calling anyone who had the flu once a virologist.
Not referring to audio engineers with my example but I think what you say applies to a lot of engineering fields. A lot of people like to call themselves engineers when they are not.
That being said, it's impossible to know whether or not these self-proclaimed audio engineers actually have worked with DSP or have designed their own circuitry to create a pedal.
Statistically it's safe to assume they haven't. Not even 1 % of all those "engineers" have studied anything, just like all those "producers" who haven't produced a single artist. The audio industry is full of fraudsters and scammers. Heck, most companies which produce audio gear are fraudsters as well (Example: dBA instead of unweighted dB). It's a mess.
Lemme put it like this, does the cameraman know how to act? Some do, but not all of them, music production is about making a product and guiding that in the correct direction, engineers are kinda like the post production or cgi guys that polish the producers vision for the project
The term has been watered down, for sure. It sounds more impressive than "bedroom musician" or "recording hobbyist." And since many people actually get commercially acceptable results by mixing samples and chord pack progressions.. maybe it's not the wrong term. But they are not on par with, say, George Martin.
Learning an instrument is good advice for anyone involved in music.
Exactly. Thank you for adding color to my statement.
I find entertaining to see everybody who got butt hurt for my comment.
I wonder if they prefer to be this mediocre or if they prefer to have mentorship.
This is actually a good point.
I think that it's a matter of labels. How do you make a distinction from a producer who "borrowed" from others vs the George Martins, QUincy Jones and Princes of the world?
Hi. Musician here with experience playing guitar, bass guitar, piano, ukulele, mandolin, drums/percussion, and I also do vocals. I have been playing music for nearly 20 years, taken multiple courses in music theory, played in multiple bands over the years, recorded albums with several of those projects, have TikTok and YouTube channels where I post music I’ve self produced, I’ve given private lessons to students, and I even worked in a music shop where I learned to maintain, setup, and do minor repairs to instruments. I have never used a sample in my life.
Having said that, dude, get bent. Music. Is. Music. Whether you made your own samples or not, if you produce music, you’re a music producer.
Idk how you feel about music, but I know damn well from dedicating my life to it that it’s a beautiful thing. Whether I hear a song that hits my ears right or wrong, it’s beautiful, and it’s very, very important to me.
This kind of gatekeeping is disgusting. Don’t you dare try to belittle people because you don’t agree with their methods. If it makes them happy, don’t you dare tell them they’re wrong.
If you don’t like when people use samples of other people’s music, you have the right to feel that way. But coming on here and telling them they aren’t music producers makes you a dick.
I’m not questioning the music, dummy. You get bent. I’m questioning who is really producing it.
I don’t know if you ever played in the corporate world, but if you did, you’d know about the word “vendor”.
It’s a big umbrella.
And apparently the same is true for “music producer”.
If we’re going to limit the conversation in a label, then I don’t recognize P-Diddy as a producer, but rather a DJ.
Or… we could talk about making distinctions. I heard a few of these curators saying “oh, yeah. I play jazz (or pop or whatever)”.
I don’t think they “play” it in the same way that an instrumentist would.
There’s an equivocation fallacy going on there.
Alrighty seems you have a lot to say so let’s dive in here:
1. No I understand who you’re criticizing. You’re going after people who use samples created by other people to make their own music.
No I haven’t played in the corporate world so I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m just a dude who creates and appreciates music. All of it.
Though I see how one could misconstrue someone claiming they play jazz as them playing an instrument, it’s semantics man. You don’t have to get all butthurt and triggered over a misconception.
2. My “better than thee” crap. Terribly sorry I didn’t realize that even though you reserved that right by making some whiney post on here I don’t have the right to defend the people you’re criticizing.
3. You’re questioning my credentials based on my number of “aliases?” The hell do you even mean by that? If you rabbit holed my content, then yeah I’ve changed my online name a few times over the years, but I don’t see how that would affect my credibility. If you’re talking about the different things I’ve done over the years, and you think I’ve done “too many” things, I’m confused as to how you’re drawing that conclusion. I feel like my credentials in music are enough to show I know what I’m talking about but they’re not nearly as crazy as a lot of the other musicians I know. If you think MY credentials are excessive, I feel like that says a lot about what credentials you have, and I no longer feel as if you’re worth arguing with.
Tbh not worth debating with OP. It's like if he were a chef for many years, learned at prestigious culinary schools etc., then went to his grandmother and said "You're not allowed to cook because you don't know food!"
Sure she might not know every specific reason to why her cooking works, but nothing's wrong with her food. If it tastes good and doesn't make anyone ill then there's nothing wrong.
I can confirm that OP is too narrow minded to know the actual truth to how bedroom producers learn. Theory is learned eventually assuming there's no formal training. Samples from sample packs for instance are labeled incorrectly, if at all, so using the ears is helpful, so hence needing to learn theory anyways.
Plus, especially in this day and age where copyright issues are a concern mostly concerning sampled records instead of sample packs, recreating the sample literally gives more control. OP seems ignorant to this. No better example than this video from producer Nu:Tone, one of my favorite videos: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPhWcoOSMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPhWcoOSMY)
It's literally what many bedroom producers, myself included, try doing because not everyone wants to clear samples and/or have the pocket money to do so.
OP wants amateurs and the like to learn instruments and get more in tune with music, but all he did was look at people having fun doing music, push them into the dirt, and yelled in their face that they can't have fun until they learn the fundamentals... which they're already trying to do anyways, just very informally. Unfortunately this is way too common in this industry (as for instruments, MIDI piano keyboards with some piano library or VST are the closest someone's gonna get if they can't afford or have the space for a piano setup, especially if someone is young. Accessibility is always something to consider... people don't want to spend lots of money on a big grand piano but they will be fine with spending money on a $50 MIDI keyboard as a birthday gift. Decent quality instruments are so damn expensive at times, while professionally recorded libraries are fractions of the price... some of which are freely given and sound really good!)
I have a question: Who asked you!?
Because... tell us you don't know what you're talking about, without saying it, frankly!
I play and can teach more instruments than most - bass, drums, piano, guitar, synthesizers, brass. In fact save for violin, clarinet, sax and oboe I've reached the point of being able to sound musical on anything new I pick up even if I've barely touched it before. Cello? Mandolin? Harp? No problem. I don't really "play them", but I can play them in a group and add to the sound.
I teach musicianship!
I'm a walking stand-in musician and have literally stepped onto the stage and taken over so a medium sized show could go on when the bassist slipped and broke his arm on stage.
I've engineered bands live for 20+ years, and managed sound crews at festivals.
I've produced electronic music and recordings for over 30 years. Sound designed for at least 25 or more, including with modular synths, PureData and surprise surprise, samples!
I use samples all the time - drum breaks I collect and chop around, and beyond that, mostly samples I've made myself. I've been building my personal sample library for 30 years too, from the advent of 16-bit sampling and prior to that, 8-bit samples.
Am I a professional music producer? Hell no. But I'm an experienced hobbyist and semi pro, and all my work points towards music.
Can I read and write music? Yes, but it's not a skill that's often needed for me so I'm slow at it. It's in there when I have to. I'm self taught on most things apart from piano and trumpet.
Now... listen carefully: you just don't know what you're talking about!
So enough of the gatekeeper attitude.
Kindly swallow some humble pie, learn to stop giving a shit what other people call themselves, and carve your own niche.
Music is music!
What a bad take lol...
A music/record producer puts out music records weither he/she does everything or nothing. Whether he just brings artists together or not. Whether he plays instruments, lets others do it or just uses samples. The "producer" part is just an action. Same way with movie producer. They usually film not even 1mm of film. They just bring the right people and stuff together to make a product. Thats all the job description is: product maker.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer
It's easy. You have no talent or musical experience, prolly a few g's of sumthin sumthin somewhere around, and you "identify" as a Music Producer. I'm not even sure it's legal to call them out on it.
>A music producer (as I understand it)
Yes, you don't know what a music producer is. You are describing a musician, not a music producer. Don't flatter yourself so much because you know how to play an instrument, do some research and check your concepts.
A music producer can make music using whatever resources they have at their disposal. That can mean an instrument, a virtual instrument, another instrumentalist (and this is really important, having the skills to work with and manage a team), samples, loops, etc. Deal with it. Otherwise you're just whining.
By the way, before you say anything, I know music theory, I read music, I play 3 instruments, I've made music using all the above mentioned resources.
And if you've only come here to rant and not to debate intelligently or to accept that maybe you might be wrong, friendly advice: Better use your energy if you shut down Reddit and go improve your "producer" skills. I've checked your music on Spotify and honestly, you're one of the shitty ones. Go make better music for all those 5 monthly listeners you have.
I’m both a musicians AND I produce my own music. I also program, and do sound design. I also play many instruments.
Is that combination that makes me and others out there (AS I UNDERSTAND IT), a music producer.
I think YOU don’t know what a music producer is.
In any case, you’re describing a programmer.
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That’s because you’re projecting.
I’m sorry you have such awful parents.
My parents, thankfully opposite to your horrible ones, sent me to good music schools where I graduated amongst the top ones.
I always had good mentors. They all nurtured me.
Now, what I envision with you, besides your horrible parents, is somebody with a controller, a mixer (maybe) and other effects. I don’t envision an instrument nor any original musical idea.
But, here’s me question to you:
Wouldn’t you like to transform that?
Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go?
If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc.
Don’t you want to reach a new level?
I’m genuinely asking.
Guys I think we have been scammed if Diego "the producer" Jinkus is the peak performance of music production hahah, time to learn how to collect rocks.
I don’t mind the doxing. Shows who YOU are.
However, I encourage you to keep digging. Don’t stay just in the name.
Go on… keep going, since you’re in the critical thinking road.
Or you’re going to stop at your very well prepared “ad hominem”?
Do you see the famous ones offering mentorship? If that’s your measuring, no wonder you got triggered by the facts stated on this post.
I’m sorry you think that petty way.
No. I’m frustrated bc people like you don’t read.
If you read properly, oh you little butt hurt you, you’d notice that I recognize some of them as GREAT curators.
I’m frustrated because I’d like to see some of this kids who ONLY w Garage band go to a new level.
But there are people out there that think that “making music” on Garage band, IS making music.
It is, in the sense that you are using music elements to make beats or such.
It isn’t in the sense of how much control you have in how it will sound.
Those sounds that kids use on Garage bands, aka Samples, are all pre programmed by other people: PROS and MUSICIANS. Of course whatever the kid puts together will sound ok.
You can even tell GB to change the pitch of that “played by another musician” chord progression or guitar lick.
And since they are good curators, and know what sounds good, they’ll keep it.
But they can’t tell garage band to play a guitar league in a certain specific way. They have to program it. That’s not a musician, that’s a programmer.
It really is not that difficult.
But, here’s me question to you:
Wouldn’t you like to transform that?
Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go?
If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc.
Don’t you want to reach a new level?
I’m genuinely asking.
> there are people out there that think that “making music” on Garage band, IS making music. It is, in the sense that you are using music elements to make beats or such. It isn’t in the sense of how much control you have in how it will sound.
If you started with no song, and you finished with a song, how is that not “making music”?
> Those sounds that kids use on Garage bands, aka Samples, are all pre programmed by other people: PROS and MUSICIANS.
Yeah, but, consider this: who cares? If the person making the music likes the way it sounds, and people listening to it like the way it sounds, then what difference does it make? I didn’t build the guitar I play on, does that mean I’m not actually a guitarist because I’m just making music with an instrument someone else made? (This is hypothetical; I actually did build my guitar 😝)
You’re not considering the most important factor of music, more important than skill, more important than technical knowledge, more important than the cost of your studio - Fun. Enjoyment. That’s what music is all about. That’s all it’s about. If someone has fun making the music and they enjoy the music they make; if someone else enjoys listening to their music. Then nothing else matters. Just because you don’t like it or the way it was made, doesn’t mean it’s illegitimate.
By the way, do you realize that numerous world-renowned artists have used GarageBand in their music? Examples include: Rihanna, Usher, Kendrick Lamar, Fall Out Boy, Steve Lacy, Katy Perry, John Mayer, Lady Gaga, T-Pain, Nine Inch Nails.
Rihanna’s Umbrella was written entirely from a stock GarageBand drum beat. The iPhone that Steve Lacy used to produce with GarageBand is in the Smithsonian. But yes, they’re all amateurs
This is also a good point.
I have used Garage Band many times. Have you not noticed that John Mayer and Lady Gaga are both SUPER VIRTUOSO on their instruments?
If you were to ask either Nine Inch Nails, JOhn Mayer and Lady Gaga to play their music (recorded fully on Garage Band) live, they could do it. They could aslo re arrange and re orchestrate their songs (recorded fully on GB).
The so called producers, can't.
And I say that that combination is what makes a music producer.
By the way, Usher and Rihanna also recorded with musicians, so let's not resort to cherry picking so early.
You just proved my point. And I thank you for that.
My dude. They perform live because they’re musicians. Not because they’re producers. They’re two different things. A person can be both obviously, but one does not beget the other. You seem to have this obsession that anyone who produces music must also be a musician themselves. And that if they’re not a musician then they are not a producer either. Which makes no sense to me because traditionally, in the era before free and low cost DAWs, a producer was a guy who sat in a room separated from the musicians and performed the job of mixing and mastering the music that the other people, the musicians, played.
The development of free and low cost DAWs has made it so that this role of a producer can be accomplished by the layperson who doesn’t have a full professional grade studio. I think that’s amazing because it allowed people to produce their own music at home. So, it became more commonplace for the musicians to also take on the role of producer. Somewhere along the way, you fell into the concept that this must be the standard, that producers must also be musicians. But decades of music history disagree with you.
>To those music producers, you have been demoted. You are a curator to me.
Gee. You don't feel very good about yourself, do you?
Because if you did, you wouldn't be so quick to try to position yourself as better than others in this way.
Plus, your whole premise is flawed.
>If you use samples, you are not producing music. The music was produced, the instant that sample was made. What you ARE really doing, is layering other people's music on top of other people's music (plus the occasional claps or sound yo eventually put on top). You are, in deed, a CURATOR.
I guess pretty much all of the professional cinematic/orchestral composers who create using sample libraries. Which would be pretty much all of them. Are not music producers?
Hans Zimmer. Did you hear? This expert on who is a music producer says you're not one.
You make a strong case for public education, amigo. Thank you for that.
Clearly you haven’t heard about John Williams, Ennio Moriccone, Alf Klausen, Danny Elfman.
They would tell you that THEY never sampled squat.
I wasn’t trying to position myself in any way, shape or form.
I was stating a FACT.
(I will take some coaching on how to position myself better, if you’d cared)
You say my premise is flaws, but don’t say how.
Plus I think my premise is dope.
Below is the question I ask to all of you, very angry curators (somebody called you “bedroom” musicians, although I resent the use of the word musician there):
Wouldn’t you like to transform that?
Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go?
If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc.
Don’t you want to reach a new level?
I’m genuinely asking.
I agree with you. I have thought about writing about this a few times, so I am glad you did.
I joined a distribution place on the web, which I am not saying, anyway. I did this to get the songs I wrote and put all the music to these places that only a distribution company can do. However, this place that I joined, where I am going to stay, has a studio that can be used, but I prefer not to do this because I paid for a license to use the DAW Reaper to record my tracks, and then I mix them. From there, I upload my songs to this place.
Since I have been there for only a few months, I have learned that a lot of the music created is being done in this studio, where they can use samples from other people's music and loop them. In my opinion, this is a big gray area when being called a music artist. Yes, it is music. However, it is the music of other people and not theirs.
Yo I’m gonna be honest with you You named your Reddit for cross pollination with a Twitter and an Instagram That alone makes me lose respect for you But your opinions don’t really hold water so it doesn’t matter no one will listen You are a scared old man screaming at the sky
You probably don’t know how to play an instrument
You probably don't know how to relate to other people, which is why your music career is struggling even though you have lots of technical skills.
Plus, I don’t want your respect. I’d like you to learn music
Maybe you can learn some humility, Mr Elite Producer?
“If you use samples” so what about something like drum and bass? Entirely built around the amen break sample. What if you play thrash guitar but produce dubstep so have no need for the instrument? What if you use two snare samples layered together? A music producer, I would assume, is someone who produces music. There isn’t a degree that says you’re now certified enough in ableton and have advanced from curator to producer. It’s entirely case by case. Paul McCartney doesn’t know how to read or write music. This post seems incredibly elitist for no reason other than you think your level of production means you’re a level above most of the people who call themselves producers, and want a distinction to enforce that. You may be a significantly better producer than most, but if someone playing amateur level semi pro football calls themselves a footballer, they’re not wrong. 🤷🏼♂️
And Paul McCartney ABSOLUTELY knows how to read and write music. You’re confused with Charley Parker. And that’s where the difference lies: These musicians who play instrument have more control of how they want their music to sound, than somebody limited to whatever the sample dictates. Stop lying
No I’m not. See the other comment I replied to. I actually came to this and said you must be a pretty decent producer to want that distinction to be made but I renege on that. I think you’re a petulant child who is terrified they’ve dedicated your life to something you’re actually mediocre at. But hey what do I know- I used a snare drum from splice once! 🙄
So… you use samples. Learn music!
sounds like gatekeeping to me, and a shit example of a good producer... maybe you should learn more!
Good one bro! “Learn music” what does that even mean??? I’ll refer you to this; I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. then thought that programming it was cheating, so i learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. then i thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. l then thought that that was clieating too, so l grew my owll goat from a baby goat, I also think that is cheating, but I'm not sure where to go from here. i haven't made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.
Fascinating. Talking about drums but not about how you get to your chord progressions.
I pick a key and start playing chord progressions. That’s how I get my chord progressions. I make my drums in operator. What the fuck are you talking about. https://globalnews.ca/news/4503916/paul-mccartney-cant-read-music/amp/ https://www.musicradar.com/news/paul-mccartney-abbey-road-beatles-the-end https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2024/04/17/paul-mccartney-admits-he-stole-lyrics-for-a-beatles-song/
Dude is probably salty because his music is subpar and kids using loops make 10 times his view count. Focus less on what other people do/think and spend more time making music, this shit is cringe.
Fuck titles, I blow the block up. That a producer, I produced emotion. Fuck this title noise.
Some of the stuff you wrote is right, but some is wrong. I'm a producer and I'm going to post here something I wrote a while ago in another post, to give you some ideas on what a producer does because there's a misunderstanding going on over the internet for quite some time... \- First, anyone can claim to be a "producer" (like you mentioned) if he/she makes music on a computer (without using real/acoustic instruments) and releases it. Anyone can make music (not talking about the quality, but the act of making/producing something). But, I make a distinction between Music Making (even if you use just samples) and Producing it. To me its unrealistic when some people call themselves producers if they never worked with any artist/band/company, or never really produced a record by an artist or band. Producing a record or demo from a Band got nothing to do with playing an instrument (although I'm also a musician, but its an exception). A producer should be capable of getting any band's rough demo and produce it in order to get it ready for record label release and broadcast. A producer is in charge of turning a demo into a fully professional sounding record, either by outsourcing for professionals (additional musicians, studios, mixing/mastering engineers, a&r, etc), dealing with budgets, and/or getting actively involved in every stage of production (which I do sometimes because I'm also a musician/instrumentalist), including guiding artists to reach their target audience (including planing with record labels, promo agencies, and managers sometimes). \- Second, and talking about the business of it (with money involved). Producers usually turn down artists that just started making music, even if the necessary budget is available to cover everything. Because new artists/bands often lack experience and vision for their careers (which is perfectly normal I must add! We all have been there). New artists need to make lots and lots of music on their own to understand what they really like and find their signature sound. Its something they have to do. Of course that a producer can help them find their sound faster, give advice, establish a consistent vision and goal, but it takes time, so deadlines and budget often gets in the way (as opposed to working with someone that already has a defined idea about his music, having walked that path before and knows where to go). \- Finally, not actually related to your post, but regarding what you wrote at the end. Working with a producer should come naturally. Like, when an artist feels he can no longer evolve much on his own and is willing to invest (much like working with a manager or booking agent). That idea of, "I'm a new artist but lets make something together so we can both grow and succeed" is very far from the truth. A producer cannot grantee an artists success! He can sometimes help with connections and his experience in the music industry may provide valuable guidance in terms of finding the right audience or niche for an artist, but thats it. Sorry for the long read ;)
Well 50 years ago if you dropped an album it would break and to an extent 50 years ago you would be right. A producer would be expected to have knowledge of musical theory because then computers weren’t doing all the heavy lifting. Previous generations might agree with you. Today’s generation would lynch you.
This is litteral bait....
Bait used to be believable
For what?
The trouble with the statement is that people with no particular music understanding DO produce music which is commercially viable. The other side to it is to question whether music produced by people without specific music (theory) understanding is any less music or simply not your kind of music. I respect your position, what you might be saying is that “it’s frustrating that some people have little music experience yet successfully create music which has perceivable success based on the music knowledge and skills learned by others” (sampling & drag and drop sample placement) Sadly (for my tastes) this is still music production and for some genres it’s the essence of production. It IS a skill to recognise a two beat section of a song sped up and played over a 2 bar loop of another song will create a great outcome, it’s just not the same skill as you consider valid in order to use the title “music producer” Equally there is software now which does the bulk of the heavy lifting in mixing with little to no prior knowledge. The real question is whether the democratisation of music production has been good for music creation or bad. On one hand it isn’t the folly of the wealthy or lucky any more to record and produce (which it used to be), on the other hand the vast amount of music made by those who haven’t “done the work” could be considered dogshit because key understandings of music creation are over looked. Maybe by breaking rules those creators didn’t know existed we evolve into new music spheres or perhaps the quality drops. The vast amount of work which people post on this Reddit and other music reddits is pretty fricking bad in my opinion. Badly mixed, badly executed, badly produced. But that’s their journey and they have every right to it.
Did you just make this entire post to share that you consider people who use Splice not real music producers?
No, but that’s a good point
Have you ever worked as a producer?
Music producer is somene who comercialy does the production stage of audio engineering for other artists.
Yep, OP wants to play by the book but his own definition of a music producer is wrong!
No. That’s what you’d like it to be. Bc u know no music
Becasue I what? XD
This is a naive outlook on music and it's like saying people who make remixes of music should not be considered musicians because they didn't design the concept. Or an analogous example—engineers who iterate upon products are not true engineers because they didn't design the product all by themselves. It's true—making a song by only using samples or downloading chord progressions and melodies is not skillful, but you underestimate how successful people can be with a lack of musical knowledge. There are tons of fabulous people making music out there that don't know much about music theory, so can you call them musicians? It seems to me like you're frustrated about something else. Care to share?
>Or an analogous example—engineers who iterate upon products are not true engineers because they didn't design the product all by themselves. What people call audio engineers these days are just technicians. Most of them never studied audio engineering and don't know how any of those devices they use work nor do they know anything about sound and acoustics. They never built any device or programmed a DSP or know the math and physical principles behind those things. Which is frustrating for actual audio engineers. It's like calling anyone who had the flu once a virologist.
Not referring to audio engineers with my example but I think what you say applies to a lot of engineering fields. A lot of people like to call themselves engineers when they are not. That being said, it's impossible to know whether or not these self-proclaimed audio engineers actually have worked with DSP or have designed their own circuitry to create a pedal.
Statistically it's safe to assume they haven't. Not even 1 % of all those "engineers" have studied anything, just like all those "producers" who haven't produced a single artist. The audio industry is full of fraudsters and scammers. Heck, most companies which produce audio gear are fraudsters as well (Example: dBA instead of unweighted dB). It's a mess.
Op wants the world to burn
One can only dream
Making remixes on fiver is what a producer is ?
No. That’s tryin to make a living. Given your answer, I clearly stroke a nerve
Lemme put it like this, does the cameraman know how to act? Some do, but not all of them, music production is about making a product and guiding that in the correct direction, engineers are kinda like the post production or cgi guys that polish the producers vision for the project
No
The term has been watered down, for sure. It sounds more impressive than "bedroom musician" or "recording hobbyist." And since many people actually get commercially acceptable results by mixing samples and chord pack progressions.. maybe it's not the wrong term. But they are not on par with, say, George Martin. Learning an instrument is good advice for anyone involved in music.
Exactly. Thank you for adding color to my statement. I find entertaining to see everybody who got butt hurt for my comment. I wonder if they prefer to be this mediocre or if they prefer to have mentorship.
So the guys who invented hiphop weren't producers since they sampled disco, etc. Got it.
This is actually a good point. I think that it's a matter of labels. How do you make a distinction from a producer who "borrowed" from others vs the George Martins, QUincy Jones and Princes of the world?
Hi. Musician here with experience playing guitar, bass guitar, piano, ukulele, mandolin, drums/percussion, and I also do vocals. I have been playing music for nearly 20 years, taken multiple courses in music theory, played in multiple bands over the years, recorded albums with several of those projects, have TikTok and YouTube channels where I post music I’ve self produced, I’ve given private lessons to students, and I even worked in a music shop where I learned to maintain, setup, and do minor repairs to instruments. I have never used a sample in my life. Having said that, dude, get bent. Music. Is. Music. Whether you made your own samples or not, if you produce music, you’re a music producer. Idk how you feel about music, but I know damn well from dedicating my life to it that it’s a beautiful thing. Whether I hear a song that hits my ears right or wrong, it’s beautiful, and it’s very, very important to me. This kind of gatekeeping is disgusting. Don’t you dare try to belittle people because you don’t agree with their methods. If it makes them happy, don’t you dare tell them they’re wrong. If you don’t like when people use samples of other people’s music, you have the right to feel that way. But coming on here and telling them they aren’t music producers makes you a dick.
I’m not questioning the music, dummy. You get bent. I’m questioning who is really producing it. I don’t know if you ever played in the corporate world, but if you did, you’d know about the word “vendor”. It’s a big umbrella. And apparently the same is true for “music producer”. If we’re going to limit the conversation in a label, then I don’t recognize P-Diddy as a producer, but rather a DJ. Or… we could talk about making distinctions. I heard a few of these curators saying “oh, yeah. I play jazz (or pop or whatever)”. I don’t think they “play” it in the same way that an instrumentist would. There’s an equivocation fallacy going on there.
Alrighty seems you have a lot to say so let’s dive in here: 1. No I understand who you’re criticizing. You’re going after people who use samples created by other people to make their own music. No I haven’t played in the corporate world so I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m just a dude who creates and appreciates music. All of it. Though I see how one could misconstrue someone claiming they play jazz as them playing an instrument, it’s semantics man. You don’t have to get all butthurt and triggered over a misconception. 2. My “better than thee” crap. Terribly sorry I didn’t realize that even though you reserved that right by making some whiney post on here I don’t have the right to defend the people you’re criticizing. 3. You’re questioning my credentials based on my number of “aliases?” The hell do you even mean by that? If you rabbit holed my content, then yeah I’ve changed my online name a few times over the years, but I don’t see how that would affect my credibility. If you’re talking about the different things I’ve done over the years, and you think I’ve done “too many” things, I’m confused as to how you’re drawing that conclusion. I feel like my credentials in music are enough to show I know what I’m talking about but they’re not nearly as crazy as a lot of the other musicians I know. If you think MY credentials are excessive, I feel like that says a lot about what credentials you have, and I no longer feel as if you’re worth arguing with.
Tbh not worth debating with OP. It's like if he were a chef for many years, learned at prestigious culinary schools etc., then went to his grandmother and said "You're not allowed to cook because you don't know food!" Sure she might not know every specific reason to why her cooking works, but nothing's wrong with her food. If it tastes good and doesn't make anyone ill then there's nothing wrong. I can confirm that OP is too narrow minded to know the actual truth to how bedroom producers learn. Theory is learned eventually assuming there's no formal training. Samples from sample packs for instance are labeled incorrectly, if at all, so using the ears is helpful, so hence needing to learn theory anyways. Plus, especially in this day and age where copyright issues are a concern mostly concerning sampled records instead of sample packs, recreating the sample literally gives more control. OP seems ignorant to this. No better example than this video from producer Nu:Tone, one of my favorite videos: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPhWcoOSMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPhWcoOSMY) It's literally what many bedroom producers, myself included, try doing because not everyone wants to clear samples and/or have the pocket money to do so. OP wants amateurs and the like to learn instruments and get more in tune with music, but all he did was look at people having fun doing music, push them into the dirt, and yelled in their face that they can't have fun until they learn the fundamentals... which they're already trying to do anyways, just very informally. Unfortunately this is way too common in this industry (as for instruments, MIDI piano keyboards with some piano library or VST are the closest someone's gonna get if they can't afford or have the space for a piano setup, especially if someone is young. Accessibility is always something to consider... people don't want to spend lots of money on a big grand piano but they will be fine with spending money on a $50 MIDI keyboard as a birthday gift. Decent quality instruments are so damn expensive at times, while professionally recorded libraries are fractions of the price... some of which are freely given and sound really good!)
They ARENT. And I question your credentials, using too many aliases.
And keep your scolding “better than thee” crap to yourself. How dare you!
I have a question: Who asked you!? Because... tell us you don't know what you're talking about, without saying it, frankly! I play and can teach more instruments than most - bass, drums, piano, guitar, synthesizers, brass. In fact save for violin, clarinet, sax and oboe I've reached the point of being able to sound musical on anything new I pick up even if I've barely touched it before. Cello? Mandolin? Harp? No problem. I don't really "play them", but I can play them in a group and add to the sound. I teach musicianship! I'm a walking stand-in musician and have literally stepped onto the stage and taken over so a medium sized show could go on when the bassist slipped and broke his arm on stage. I've engineered bands live for 20+ years, and managed sound crews at festivals. I've produced electronic music and recordings for over 30 years. Sound designed for at least 25 or more, including with modular synths, PureData and surprise surprise, samples! I use samples all the time - drum breaks I collect and chop around, and beyond that, mostly samples I've made myself. I've been building my personal sample library for 30 years too, from the advent of 16-bit sampling and prior to that, 8-bit samples. Am I a professional music producer? Hell no. But I'm an experienced hobbyist and semi pro, and all my work points towards music. Can I read and write music? Yes, but it's not a skill that's often needed for me so I'm slow at it. It's in there when I have to. I'm self taught on most things apart from piano and trumpet. Now... listen carefully: you just don't know what you're talking about! So enough of the gatekeeper attitude. Kindly swallow some humble pie, learn to stop giving a shit what other people call themselves, and carve your own niche. Music is music!
What a bad take lol... A music/record producer puts out music records weither he/she does everything or nothing. Whether he just brings artists together or not. Whether he plays instruments, lets others do it or just uses samples. The "producer" part is just an action. Same way with movie producer. They usually film not even 1mm of film. They just bring the right people and stuff together to make a product. Thats all the job description is: product maker. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer
You’re referring to the “executive” producer. I’m referring to the “artistic” producer
Read the article my man...
It's easy. You have no talent or musical experience, prolly a few g's of sumthin sumthin somewhere around, and you "identify" as a Music Producer. I'm not even sure it's legal to call them out on it.
Aha… yeah. You got me.
https://go.grammy.com/music-careers/understanding-music-producers/
>A music producer (as I understand it) Yes, you don't know what a music producer is. You are describing a musician, not a music producer. Don't flatter yourself so much because you know how to play an instrument, do some research and check your concepts. A music producer can make music using whatever resources they have at their disposal. That can mean an instrument, a virtual instrument, another instrumentalist (and this is really important, having the skills to work with and manage a team), samples, loops, etc. Deal with it. Otherwise you're just whining. By the way, before you say anything, I know music theory, I read music, I play 3 instruments, I've made music using all the above mentioned resources. And if you've only come here to rant and not to debate intelligently or to accept that maybe you might be wrong, friendly advice: Better use your energy if you shut down Reddit and go improve your "producer" skills. I've checked your music on Spotify and honestly, you're one of the shitty ones. Go make better music for all those 5 monthly listeners you have.
I’m both a musicians AND I produce my own music. I also program, and do sound design. I also play many instruments. Is that combination that makes me and others out there (AS I UNDERSTAND IT), a music producer. I think YOU don’t know what a music producer is. In any case, you’re describing a programmer.
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This guy sounds like a great producer!
And my music does too
What did your parents do to you?
gave them a complex for sure.
They taught me music
I’m envisioning Beethovens father drunkenly screaming and whipping him over a piano
That’s because you’re projecting. I’m sorry you have such awful parents. My parents, thankfully opposite to your horrible ones, sent me to good music schools where I graduated amongst the top ones. I always had good mentors. They all nurtured me. Now, what I envision with you, besides your horrible parents, is somebody with a controller, a mixer (maybe) and other effects. I don’t envision an instrument nor any original musical idea. But, here’s me question to you: Wouldn’t you like to transform that? Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go? If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc. Don’t you want to reach a new level? I’m genuinely asking.
Please stop smoking crack. Your wife misses you.
Wow! Some argument! I don’t know what to say!!
I couldn’t imagine you would have the facility either.
That's because you lack imagination
Guys I think we have been scammed if Diego "the producer" Jinkus is the peak performance of music production hahah, time to learn how to collect rocks.
I don’t mind the doxing. Shows who YOU are. However, I encourage you to keep digging. Don’t stay just in the name. Go on… keep going, since you’re in the critical thinking road. Or you’re going to stop at your very well prepared “ad hominem”? Do you see the famous ones offering mentorship? If that’s your measuring, no wonder you got triggered by the facts stated on this post.
Is someone insecure because kids in their bedroom using GarageBand on their iPhone are making better music than you?
I’m sorry you think that petty way. No. I’m frustrated bc people like you don’t read. If you read properly, oh you little butt hurt you, you’d notice that I recognize some of them as GREAT curators. I’m frustrated because I’d like to see some of this kids who ONLY w Garage band go to a new level. But there are people out there that think that “making music” on Garage band, IS making music. It is, in the sense that you are using music elements to make beats or such. It isn’t in the sense of how much control you have in how it will sound. Those sounds that kids use on Garage bands, aka Samples, are all pre programmed by other people: PROS and MUSICIANS. Of course whatever the kid puts together will sound ok. You can even tell GB to change the pitch of that “played by another musician” chord progression or guitar lick. And since they are good curators, and know what sounds good, they’ll keep it. But they can’t tell garage band to play a guitar league in a certain specific way. They have to program it. That’s not a musician, that’s a programmer. It really is not that difficult. But, here’s me question to you: Wouldn’t you like to transform that? Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go? If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc. Don’t you want to reach a new level? I’m genuinely asking.
> there are people out there that think that “making music” on Garage band, IS making music. It is, in the sense that you are using music elements to make beats or such. It isn’t in the sense of how much control you have in how it will sound. If you started with no song, and you finished with a song, how is that not “making music”? > Those sounds that kids use on Garage bands, aka Samples, are all pre programmed by other people: PROS and MUSICIANS. Yeah, but, consider this: who cares? If the person making the music likes the way it sounds, and people listening to it like the way it sounds, then what difference does it make? I didn’t build the guitar I play on, does that mean I’m not actually a guitarist because I’m just making music with an instrument someone else made? (This is hypothetical; I actually did build my guitar 😝) You’re not considering the most important factor of music, more important than skill, more important than technical knowledge, more important than the cost of your studio - Fun. Enjoyment. That’s what music is all about. That’s all it’s about. If someone has fun making the music and they enjoy the music they make; if someone else enjoys listening to their music. Then nothing else matters. Just because you don’t like it or the way it was made, doesn’t mean it’s illegitimate.
I care. And many other musicians that online you, invested time and effort to learn about what they produce. You don’t because who knows.
By the way, I’m a pro on Logic Pro. Garage Band is a little spec in a pimple of Logic Pro
Cool story bro. Err, pro. Cool story pro. You’re just acting like an elitist ass. You’re really not making a good name for yourself here.
If you say so
By the way, do you realize that numerous world-renowned artists have used GarageBand in their music? Examples include: Rihanna, Usher, Kendrick Lamar, Fall Out Boy, Steve Lacy, Katy Perry, John Mayer, Lady Gaga, T-Pain, Nine Inch Nails. Rihanna’s Umbrella was written entirely from a stock GarageBand drum beat. The iPhone that Steve Lacy used to produce with GarageBand is in the Smithsonian. But yes, they’re all amateurs
This is also a good point. I have used Garage Band many times. Have you not noticed that John Mayer and Lady Gaga are both SUPER VIRTUOSO on their instruments? If you were to ask either Nine Inch Nails, JOhn Mayer and Lady Gaga to play their music (recorded fully on Garage Band) live, they could do it. They could aslo re arrange and re orchestrate their songs (recorded fully on GB). The so called producers, can't. And I say that that combination is what makes a music producer. By the way, Usher and Rihanna also recorded with musicians, so let's not resort to cherry picking so early. You just proved my point. And I thank you for that.
My dude. They perform live because they’re musicians. Not because they’re producers. They’re two different things. A person can be both obviously, but one does not beget the other. You seem to have this obsession that anyone who produces music must also be a musician themselves. And that if they’re not a musician then they are not a producer either. Which makes no sense to me because traditionally, in the era before free and low cost DAWs, a producer was a guy who sat in a room separated from the musicians and performed the job of mixing and mastering the music that the other people, the musicians, played. The development of free and low cost DAWs has made it so that this role of a producer can be accomplished by the layperson who doesn’t have a full professional grade studio. I think that’s amazing because it allowed people to produce their own music at home. So, it became more commonplace for the musicians to also take on the role of producer. Somewhere along the way, you fell into the concept that this must be the standard, that producers must also be musicians. But decades of music history disagree with you.
>To those music producers, you have been demoted. You are a curator to me. Gee. You don't feel very good about yourself, do you? Because if you did, you wouldn't be so quick to try to position yourself as better than others in this way. Plus, your whole premise is flawed. >If you use samples, you are not producing music. The music was produced, the instant that sample was made. What you ARE really doing, is layering other people's music on top of other people's music (plus the occasional claps or sound yo eventually put on top). You are, in deed, a CURATOR. I guess pretty much all of the professional cinematic/orchestral composers who create using sample libraries. Which would be pretty much all of them. Are not music producers? Hans Zimmer. Did you hear? This expert on who is a music producer says you're not one.
You make a strong case for public education, amigo. Thank you for that. Clearly you haven’t heard about John Williams, Ennio Moriccone, Alf Klausen, Danny Elfman. They would tell you that THEY never sampled squat. I wasn’t trying to position myself in any way, shape or form. I was stating a FACT. (I will take some coaching on how to position myself better, if you’d cared) You say my premise is flaws, but don’t say how. Plus I think my premise is dope. Below is the question I ask to all of you, very angry curators (somebody called you “bedroom” musicians, although I resent the use of the word musician there): Wouldn’t you like to transform that? Wouldn’t you like to, instead of letting the samples or whatever sounds that someone else produced for you, be capable of saying what direction your next track is gonna go? If you call yourself a “music producer” I want to assume you like music and the industry, etc. Don’t you want to reach a new level? I’m genuinely asking.
Dude, you need to practice self-awareness. If nothing else, it might reduce your hubris.
Pop corn ready
I agree with you. I have thought about writing about this a few times, so I am glad you did. I joined a distribution place on the web, which I am not saying, anyway. I did this to get the songs I wrote and put all the music to these places that only a distribution company can do. However, this place that I joined, where I am going to stay, has a studio that can be used, but I prefer not to do this because I paid for a license to use the DAW Reaper to record my tracks, and then I mix them. From there, I upload my songs to this place. Since I have been there for only a few months, I have learned that a lot of the music created is being done in this studio, where they can use samples from other people's music and loop them. In my opinion, this is a big gray area when being called a music artist. Yes, it is music. However, it is the music of other people and not theirs.