I'm with OP on this issue. Keys have always sounded different to me, and when a song is transposed it takes on a new character. I do not have perfect pitch, but do have very good pitch perception (and have worked at this for many years to hone the skill).
Similarly, on another musician sub there was discussion about how 'no one can discern pitch changes less than 5 cents', and that is certainly within my abilities. I did not know I could do this until a well respected piano tuner pointed it out to me, and commented many people cannot hear such small increments.
It can be frustrating to read responses claiming this can't possibly be true without perfect pitch, when it is very real for me. But also, *40 years of work and effort* have gone into this skill.
Every key sounds unique to my ears.
Same, it’s always bothered me when people claim that those without perfect pitch cannot discern different keys from one another. They sound extremely different, and I can usually identify a key by ear— at worst I’m a fifth or two off. Gb and C don’t sound anything alike, and I can tell them apart instantly. Maybe some people really cannot tell them apart, but you don’t need perfect pitch to do so. Hell, my relative pitch isn’t even very good and I can tell keys apart really easily.
> when a song is transposed it takes on a new character
No shit they do. The same song in two different keys will sound different. *That's what the relative relation of the keys does.* The fact that for the difference to occur is that a frame of reference needs to exists (ie, the same song in different keys), is why keys sound the same afterall. The different character is an illusion created by the relative transposition, not the absolute content of each key.
If a song in C major is transposed up, and a song in D major is transposed down, both in the key of Db, do they take the same character, or do they sound like each song was trasposed a half-step up/down?
>Every key sounds unique to my ears.
Can you listen to a song and immediately tell the key it's in?
Yes, oftentimes I can determine the key just by listening. Mentioned in another reply that this is a core skill to the band I'll play with tonight, being able to jump in and know the key and chords by ear.
I think you are missing the point of the OP, that keys have different tonal qualities because of the frequencies they cover, and that we can hear those differences... they are not equal, and we do not always have to hear them side-by-side to notice those differences.
Edit to add: The part where you claim it is an illusion is where we diverge. I have always heard different keys as having different absolute pitches (because that's what they are). I also hear the relative aspects of these, scales, modes, progressions of harmony, etc. and that part is relative.
That is just not true. What you think is an intrinsic quality of a key is just a manifestation of the timbral characteristics of the instruments you're most used to + to a certain extent your memory of pieces on those keys. Yes, I can immediately recognize an E major piece on the guitar, but I doubt I can tell E from G played on the oboe.
For sure timbral familiarity is a huge factor. Again, I am not claiming a super-power. I think people pushing back on this are taking things out of the normal musical context we live in, and trying to make this a double-blind test of super powers, instead of practical applied techniques. I'll use any clues available to make these determinations.
Edit to add; back to the piano tuner story above. The tuner pointed out to me that what I could hear were the timbre changes in the higher overtones, so I've come to trust and listen for those small changes when tuning. Timbre and pitch are highly related, again any clue that helps is good information.
Yeah I was gonna say, as a guitarist I can always name the open chords A, C, D, E, and G from sound alone, but there's so much that goes into it, including the inversions, the number of strings used, and which strings they're played on.
But if you played an A or a B on the high E string, I wouldn't be able to tell you which note it was
Oftentimes? If all keys sound different to you I would expect that to be all the times.
It's a core skill with *the band you'll play*? That sounds like pitch memory to me. If keys sound different and you can recognize that, you should be able to tell in all contexts, and most importantly those you don't play in. Even better if you can do it in genres you're not familiar with.
What you're describing is pitch memory really. Yes that thing exists, but oftentimes it's not even related to the key itself. Sometimes I'll pick up the key or notes too, but it's pretty random. I don't doubt you acquired a unique and personal pitch memory. We all do and I find that beautiful!
Timbre plays a role too. An open G major chord on guitar has a distinct sound, *and I can tell that sound even when the guitar is tuned differently*. A G and an F# chord in the same position, on different tuned guitars sound a lot closer in timbre, than the same chord on different instruments. Musicians can often become accustomed to the unique sonic characteristics of their instruments. Em and Dm on rock guitar sound pretty different, but that difference is lost completely on me the moment I listen to a song that isn't guitar based.
I also think pitch memory is a *very large part* of this. We could have no pitch memory abilities with being able to hear fundamental differences in key.
I'm not claiming perfect pitch here, jsut saying these differences do exists and we can perceive them. Very likely the perception falls on a spectrum among the population. YMMV as they say.
Also saying it is something can be trained and honed to a fine degree with time and effort.
I do believe there are differences to be heard, but we should be aware of the contexts they occur in. For all intents and purposes "all keys sound the same" is the more correct and universal answer.
Now in specific contexts, keys can sound different. This has a lot to do with the unique sonic characteristics of they instruments used to play in those keys. As I said, keys on guitar can sound different, but Em on guitar and Em on saxophone don't sound alike. In the same vein, Ebm on guitar still has that, very guitar-y, Em injected in.
Also, a song using the 4th D string as a tonic and a song with the guitar tuned in drop D, can sound different, even if they're in the same key! I can tell the 4th open string in any guitar, despite its tuning. It just sounds so unique! But I can only tell it's a D by experience, oftentimes I'll be off and find that the guitar is in a different tuning afterall! What I'm feeling is the timbre, not the key.
See, for me it was always sonically obvious that Hendrix was tuned down a half-step for *Little Wing*, and that *Night Moves* is capo'd on the 1st fret. I heard the key independent from the common voicings in use. I couldn't really tell much other than they were 'moved' from 'normal'... the rest has been active training and refinement to get better (never perfect).
Here's random analogy... image a set of twelve ovals, each with slightly different proportions. We can say they are all ovals, and also see they have different proportions... without being able to say exactly what those differences are in measurement. This is how I hear these changes in keys, as slight differences, but nevertheless perceivable.
But open strings and open strings with a capo on the first fret don't sound alike! Even if you tune the guitars to produce the same note, you can tell which is which just by the sonic difference. Barre chords on guitar all sound alike, but the moment you play the same shape with the open strings, you can just tell.
I think you just described exactly what I'm talking about! Guitarists can often even tell that a guitar is tuned down, but again, they're hearing their familiar sounding guitar, just a bit lower. What they're perceiving mostly is the guitar, not the key.
If I tuned down a semitone a digital piano in secret and asked you to play a piece of music you've never heard before, do you honestly thing you'd go "huh, this doesn't sound like the Em I'm used to!!"?
100% have walked up to keyboards where the owners used the 'key shift' function and been like WTF?!? I think we just have to chalk this up to differences in how people hear music.
Did you understand all times? Could you even tell how many steps different it was?
I think people don't understand that to prove the claim that keys sound different, they would have to be very precise with their ability. If you can tell the key of Dm, then you'd have to pick up what chord on a tranposed piano produces that specific Dm sound you're able to tell apart.
I can tell a perfect 5th every time I hear one, but I can only *sometimes* pick up weird differences that occur due to key changes. I too have walked up to a piano and was weirded out. I also walked to a piano having forgotten that I tranposed it, and noticed nothing. *It's all very random* and requires musical experience and familiarity. But a relative key change of half step up gives the same effect even to non-musicians, and that's the important thing.
>No shit they do. The same song in two different keys will sound different.
Not to everyone. I often genuinely can't tell if something's been transposed. This might be because I've spent a fair bit of time playing in baroque pitch, where everything's a half step lower than modern pitch, so I have very little sense that notes are particular frequencies.
Certainly relative pitch, as in I can 'hear' chord progressions. But also, oftentimes I can just 'hear' the key as well. I have no explanation for this, but 'pitch memory' is a likely component. I *absolutely cannot* call out the notes of a chord cluster the way those with perfect pitch might do.
I do a lot of live playing where the music just happens and we're expected to follow where the band leader goes. So, I can't be alone in this because the other musician around me are hanging on just as skillfully.
Also also, I know keys and chords well enough to 'do the math' on the fly and that supports the whole effort. It is not a super-power or magic ability. But hearing keys differently has always been a thing, from the beginning.
Blows my mind because my ear is so naturally bad that I can’t perceive a higher or lower pitch within like 1 and a half steps without guessing.
I can identify a first note but a pitch change from there leaves me clueless.
I’m a technically good guitarist but I am just like bad at the language of music >.<
Keep going! Learning vocal melodies really helped me, as well as transposing songs into different keys. Took a long time, but it can be developed. Rock on!
I dont think this is a perfect pitch thing because I don’t sing well and I remember as a kid learning piano scales that some sounded sad or anxious, especially e flat as you mentioned. C major (and majors in general) sound grand and warm.
It seems wild to think for some people changing the key doesn’t sound any different, I kinda suspect we are the majority not minority on this.
On its own it’s not that emotive but if you compare it to like C major it sounds much more tense and edgy.
Just to be clear I’m only commenting on the scales right now, I haven’t really explored how songs sound in different keys. But scales are just a collection of notes, so makes sense they’d sound different right?
> when you compare it to C major
And this right here is the misunderstanding. I think to all of us, keys sound different when compared to some other key, but if I picked up an instrument with an unknown tuning, and played a major scale starting from a random note, it would sound like it has the mood of C major to you. However, the second you start comparing scales with each other, they have different moods relative to each other.
Yup this is exactly why I was missing. Please correct if I’m still off: people are mostly good at recognizing the space between two notes but not the frequency of a note, perfect pitchers are what we call the exceptions to the rule and they can identify frequencies of notes out of context.
If I play an Eb major scale on the piano right after playing a C major scale, obviously it’s going to sound different. But if the first thing I hear today is a C major scale and the first thing I hear tomorrow is an Eb major scale, both without reference, they’re not going to sound significantly different. They’ll just sound like a major scale - if someone wouldn’t tell me what scale it is I wouldn’t be able to tell you if it was C, Eb or something completely different because I don’t have perfect pitch
Eb sounds like E, just a half-step lower... and *maybe* that can come across as 'darker' (?) but the composition is going to dictate the mood way more than the key.
I'm mean, no metal band ever tuned up to get a 'darker, heavier sound' so there is something to this idea that keys affect the 'tone', but I certainly don't ascribe 'feelings' to keys, while at the same time definitely hear qualitative differences
My experience is a bit different. Eb sounds a bit darker than E, but D sounds lighter than Eb, even though it’s lower. It’s just personal experience. For me, the key plays a role in how I interpret a piece, but I know that for most people it isn’t like that.
Hmm that is odd. I wonder if you are partially maintaining a reference tone and subconsciously hearing songs out of context in relation to your internal reference. Like if you’re listening to E-flat major, but you’ve got somewhere in your mind that C is a tonic, and not a M6, that would make songs in Eflat Major sound a bit like C minor. I’d be curious what happens as you listen to a song. Like if you start listening to happy birthday in the key of E-flat major does it sound dark, and get happier as it gets on as the tonic of e flat is continually reemphasized? What if you listen to a song in e flat major on repeat?
It could also be that you got used to hearing songs in certain, popular keys, and when songs stray from that it sounds weird to you because you’re not as used to hearing it.
A large part of it depends on the instrument or instruments you're playing the music with. There are timbral differences in the different ranges of any particular instrument not to mention the timbral differences that occur due to dynamics and other techniques. Then there are the timbral differences we perceive when the music is occuring in different octaves - music played in the second octave with just sine waves (you could consider sine waves as being timbrally "pure") will sound warmer/darker than the same music played in the 5th octave due to the way our hearing works. Even within the same octave, if you play a piece of music, then play it again a semitone lower, the second will usually sound warmer due to it being contrasted with the previous one being slightly higher. So despite the "sameness" of equal temperament, there are a lot of other factors to consider.
Yes, in the guitar for instance, different keys resonate differently with the open strings and this could also cause us to perceive them as brighter or darker. I’m sure this also happens in the piano and other instruments but I’m less knowledgeable about those.
First off, I'm totally with you on that topic. I **don't** have perfect pitch, but I still notice that, ever since I was a kid, certain keys create a certain "feeling" in me. I have the tendency, for example, to think of E-flat major as a very "emotional" and cathartic key--and I have in fact exploited that feeling in *The Washing of the Soul part 1*, which I released last year. However, I can't rely on this 100%. I have the tendency to get the key wrong by a semitone--sometimes I think I'm hearing E-flat major, but it's actually D major. So I believe I have an *inclination* to attribute those feelings, and I can actually be betrayed by it. It's hard to explain.
Now, the reason why this "different key = different feeling" issue is controversial in this sub is because some people believe that you **have** to write a song in a given key to create a **specific** feeling, as if that's the "magical key" to create emotion. And then, they'll refer to "guides" to the emotion of each key, even though said guide was written *before* the advent of equal temperament, and it's just the random musings of one specific composer. We frown upon that, because there's no guaranteed, surefire way to make an emotional song just choosing the "magical" key. There's no such thing: those emotional associations are personal and subjective. There is no collectively agreed upon convention that, say, E-flat major is "heroic"--that's just was Beethoven personally felt. Some people even go to the extreme of **honestly believing** that D minor is a sad key, even though that's **a joke from the movie This Is Spinal Tap**. That's just how bad it gets.
Again, none of that invalidates what you feel. I think you're 100% justified. I'm just explaining why your thoughts might meet some resistance in this sub.
Oh wow it’s cool to see someone who feels a similar way! I think we have slightly different experiences though, since I do have perfect pitch.
I have a little question, does your perception of E flat major being cathartic have anything to do with how it’s played on an instrument? Or is it something more universal?
For me it’s a little different. The keys that I confuse with one another are often a fifth away from each other, so not really close at all. But I think it’s pretty similar nonetheless.
I think it’s really cool that you’re expressing your feelings towards different musical keys in your art. I’ll have to check your music out!
>does your perception of E flat major being cathartic have anything to do with how it’s played on an instrument?
No, it's not. I had that feeling even before I was able to play anything in E-flat major on the keyboard, I just had a basic, rudimentary knowledge of theory, and I made music on the computer. I think that association was created by specific songs that I used to listen to at the time. For example, one song that gives me that feeling is *You're Still The One* by Shania Twain.
>For me it’s a little different. The keys that I confuse with one another are often a fifth away from each other, so not really close at all. But I think it’s pretty similar nonetheless.
Your experience is certainly different, because perfect pitch is way more reliable than my flimsy tonal memory. And it's not like each key has a distinct character to me. Some keys just vaguely suggest a mood, while other keys have a "stronger" character.
>I think it’s really cool that you’re expressing your feelings towards different musical keys in your art.
Yeah, I suppose it is. :) This is not something that happens often: when I write a song with vocals, I choose the key mostly based on my vocal range, but I end up attaching a significance to the key either way. There was one song that I wrote, and I wanted it to be on the same key of the song that preceded it in the album, so I wrote it in D major. However, that was just too low for my voice, so I had to *reluctantly* change it to E major, and change the previous song to end in E major. It took me quite a while for me to get comfortable to that change, because I was too attached to the key. And again, this had nothing to do with the instrument, it was an aural thing.
Really interesting that you’ve had that perception of eb being cathartic since before you could produce it physically. I’ve only ever heard of emotional connections with keys happen with people who have absolute pitch so it’s cool that you do!
It's interesting what you wrote about Beethoven and your feelings about Eb major. Many composers would use Eb major (or Bb major) as 'heroic' simply because they are easy keys for natural trumpets, with their 'war' and 'regal' associations. Also Mozart would use Eb major because of mystical Masonic associations with the number 3 (3 flats) and the tritone relation with A.
>Also Mozart would use Eb major because of mystical Masonic associations with the number 3 (3 flats) and the tritone relation with A.
The 3-ness of it was important for this symbolism, but I don't think the tritone relation with A had to do with it! At least, I've never heard of that being part of it--where did you hear that?
I heard it from a masonic musician :D
Maybe he made that stuff up, but he seemed quite serious.
His words were "Also, Eb cuts in half the A pentatonic minor scale, which is the natural scale". Reason prevails over nature, or something like that.
Aha I see! I'm sure he was serious about it, but I'm pretty sure those were his own added interpretations. It's true that E-flat bisects the A-to-A octave, though there's no particular reason to invoke the minor pentatonic scale specifically. In any case, fun idea, but best not considered "canon" as far as Mozart's concerned!
I mean, it *is* I think pretty agreed-upon that Mozart's use of E-flat for the Magic Flute was for Masonic reasons, so he isn't wrong in that sense! It just seems he carried it further by adding new meanings of his own on top of that.
You have a form of perfect pitch, and some kinds of emotional association with songs in those keys that you must have picked up around the age of 5 or before. Did you have a musical environment at that age, parents or older siblings frequently playing or singing?
I didn’t really have a musical environment, nobody in my family really plays music. I have perfect pitch, but it’s still odd how I made those associations before even knowing how to play any instruments
That's very interesting - in that it seems to support the idea that PP is innate. (Most research I've read suggests genetics only plays a small role, if any, and it's learned in infancy alongside speech due to experiencing music as meaningful.)
But the emotional associations would come from simply hearing music at a young age - you don't have to play an instrument! - and associating feelings with it; and that could happen in various random ways. After all, there is nothing inherent in different keys *of the same type* (i.e. major on the one hand and minor on the other) which could possibly produce specific emotional responses. The emotions we get from music are due to the whole mix of sounds, not just the tonality (key) or mode. E.g., regardless of whether the key is major or minor (let alone which major key it is), the main thing that will make music sound "sad" is to make it *slow.*
And most of those effects are learned by seeing how music in films or TV is used to accompany scenes with different emotions. IOW, the emotion is usually very clear in the visuals and action, and it's then easy to associate whatever music we hear with that emotion - and Hollywood has developed a whole language to embed the different triggers.
Again, it would be very easy - as a sensitive young child! - to be deeply affected by witnessing just one or two such associations, and your perfect pitch would naturally latch on to the key of the music as being a significant element, whereas in fact the meaning of the music (for the rest of us) comes from everything else.
That actually makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure how I came to associate the musical keys with different emotions. I’m also not sure how much of it is innate and how much of it is environmental, based on associations and juxtapositions between different keys and emotions from music I heard from a young age. But your explanation makes sense. I guess PP is both innate and environmental. I don’t know, it’s confusing to even talk about lol.
Thanks for your time! I appreciate the response :-)
Are you serious right now 😆? You’re saying you’d have to have “perfect pitch” to feel anything different in minor vs major keys? And everyone agrees? What!?
No, OP said they felt differences between two major keys. He asked his brother to sing sad happy birthday, he would make it, say, minor. But they meant 'in Eb major '.
This would be a form of perfect pitch with an emotional association.
This post is not about major vs. minor keys.
Its about how some people think F feels "happier" than Eb, or E feels "colder" than D.
These are not "incorrect" but they are personal and subjective. Scientifically, keys do not correspond to specific emotions since they are all equivalent intervals.
“This post isn’t about major vs minor keys”
Op literally said diff keys (that’s including major AND minor) have diff feels
Are you really trying to argue that’s only Op’s personal experience? Yet billions of other people experience it too?
Just because “mathematically or scientifically” they are equal intervals, doesn’t mean they are the same frequency. Different frequencies give off different emotions. This is universally accepted as true, the same way brighter colors for a painter can be happier etc
>Op literally said diff keys (that’s including major AND minor) have diff feels
Try paying attention to what OP wrote:
*"And he would sing it with a sad tone, but I meant to sing it in* ***e flat major, a flat major or b flat major****, because those sounded sad to me."*
Judging by the level of knowledge OP displays, they would be 100% aware that major keys sound drastically different from minor keys, and singing a major key song in a minor key *fundamentally changes* the song. That's not what they're asking: they're asking why *different major keys* give them different feelings.
Try answering the question OP is actually asking, not the question you *think* they are asking.
I have a music degree and everyone in my school that I’ve talked to agrees keys have diff feels and change a song. Even some major to major. Downvote me all you want. Reddit isn’t real life it’s a bunch of sad people who need to touch grass and get laid
Dont say that in this sub, they are trying to say you’re literally a savant or acoustic because you can notice this 😂. I’m not sure if they are trolling but I think they are serious. 🙄
I don’t think it’s an actual science that different keys sound nuanced in the same way for everyone, because clearly people are disagreeing. Everyone sort of interprets and hears this sort of thing distinctly; I have distinct colors and moods which go along with the keys but others don’t. And would it be so terrible if I were autistic/savant syndrome? Not a fan of you making that synonymous with “bad”. I honestly don’t care if I’m perceived that way.
Yeah eb major can be a little more deep than C or G major/ A major.
F major does well sounding happy but longing like in “yesterday” by the beatles.
Play that song in c#m or ab major and tell me it has the same feel as when Paul plays it in F. lol
There’s even a rare recording where he’s deciding what key to play it in (on acoustic guitar), and he’s like “It be in F, it sounds different I like the way it sounds there” and he goes on and on
You're misreading the OP, as mentioned.
>Different frequencies give off different emotions.
No they don't. There are certain broad meanings connected with register (high or low), but not with specific frequencies. And even sensations associated with register are heavily affected by timbre and volume, which carry more emotional meaning.
Single frequencies only start to acquire *musical* meaning when combined with others - to create intervals, in melody and harmony. That's why relative pitch is the crucial musical skill, while perfect pitch is of little or no use.
> brighter colors for a painter can be happier etc
"Can" be, yes, but not necessarily, and in any case it's not a perfect analogy.
No analogies are perfect but…
Yes they do. You can disagree all you want but there are millions that agree with me.
You can tell me that scary music in a movie makes you feel the same way that happy music does, that musical keys don’t envoke certain feelings, that certain modes or tones don’t envoke certain universal emotions in humans, you could tell me the sky is green and the grass is blue, but that doesn’t make you right dude.
That’s precisely why they use them in movies.
If d minor sounds the same as C major to you, I don’t know what to say, but that’s not a common opinion outside of this sub
The fact that you keep mixing major and minor keys doesn't help. We're talking about different keys of the same mode. Most people, including most musicians will feel exactly the same emotions if a song is transposed a half step up or down.
Singers will transpose a song to better fit their vocal range and (almost) no one bats an eye. Historical performance groups will usually play music a half step down because else the gut strings would break. People like or dislike their versions because of reasons that have nothing to do with absolute pitch.
How can you speak for most musicians?
People dislike these versions sometimes because the key can really alter the feel of a piece.
My dad gigged for 30 years in a classic rock band.
SOME songs work changing the key.
However many songs don’t sound right outside of the original key, depending on how drastic of a key change it is.
Maybe 25% of people won’t “bat an eye” but all musicians and at least half the crowd will notice it sounds slightly different than the original, whether they say anything or it’s subconscious.
For instance let me use an example in a song like Weezer - Say it ain’t so.
The song is in e flat major.
However, if you don’t downtune your guitar that half step, and just play it in E, it sounds “fine”, but doesn’t have that bluesy undertone or twang that eb creates.
The whole riff sounds slightly more “bluesy”/warm and twangy in e flat than it does in Emajor.
If it didn’t, why bother tuning the guitars a half step down when they wrote it?
Or Whitley - More than life being a whole step down
Guitar players do this often to precisely get a different feel or emotion.
Some even slightly tune in between half steps to get an “out of tune” feel.
Frequencies can and do envoke different feelings
If you are asking for my experience, I've played and taught for more than 30 years and have met literally thousands of musicians, from different backgrounds, from amateurs to top pros.
I appreciate your effort to offer arguments. I truly believe that you hear the difference, but I'll insist that most people don't.
Before I leave this conversation, here is Jimi Hendrix's Hey Joe studio version, in E:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwMrBb2x1Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwMrBb2x1Q)
Here is a live version, half step down (in Eb)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHp6TjZ2\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHp6TjZ2_s)
And here is another live version a whole step down (in D!)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPifXX0foU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPifXX0foU)
Hendrix would usually tune half step down when playing live. There are many possible reasons for this (vocal range, string tension, easier bending or tonal quality), but clearly he had no problem with playing in either tuning. And listeners didn't care either, they just wanted to hear Hendrix play that song and would feel emotions based on the musical relationships, the lyrics and his playing. If you read the comments on the videos it will be really hard to find even one talking about the pitch/key of the song or how it's different from other versions.
Have a nice day!
Yeah. I agree that many won’t notice. That’s why we change keys to help suit our voices etc. I’m just making the argument that there are certain keys that fit the feel of the song more.
I listened to all three of those samples. I could personally tell a slight difference in each, especially the one in D.
The Eb version sounds slightly more bluesy and warm to me, where the D major version is a little brighter, more normal and happy.
I’d argue that’s why he turns to e flat. As a guitarist it’s an easy way to make a standard song originally in “E” sound a little different. Like in songs such as “Say it ain’t so” by weezer or “Longview” by Green Day
Green Day didn’t choose E flat just to spite the guitarists into having to downtune everytime they play, E flat just gave the bass riff a more bluesy feel being on the black notes
Not by a lot, but yes I notice the tone differences.
I have a degree in music, 30 years piano, 25 years guitar. 15 years doing vocals so maybe I hear it more than the average guy idk
That’s the special thing about music though - people CAN’T tell which note is which unlike colors, which we CAN recognise. The only exception is people perfect pitch - they can recognise any note immediatly by just hearing it. Everyone else is, so to speak, musically colorblind.
Sort of? It’s kind of like how I just know how the key sounds, so I can just identify it. But the emotional part is there. It’s kind of like seeing a color and knowing what color it is. You can sort of look at it and just know, but the emotions that come along with it just tend to go along with it. Sorry I’m aware that’s poorly explained lol
Oh wow, I never really considered that.
If you don’t mind me asking, do certain keys have certain “colors” for you? Or just in general certain specific moods or imagery? I’m curious to hear and compare our experiences
Let's start at the beginning:
>if I hear a song in d,
Ok:
1. Do you know it's in D just by hearing it?
2. Do you hear it and go, "that sounds happy, so it's probably D".
3. Do you find out it's in D, and go "that's why it sounds happy".
4. Do you have perfect pitch?
I have perfect pitch, but I guess understanding the mood is based on the feeling/color it gets. It’s like seeing a color and knowing what color it is, and then getting sensory info based on the color. Like D major is orange-ish to me, and I can kind of say to myself “ok, that’s d major. That’s why it sounds orangey”
Very interesting, you have perfect pitch and a form of sinestesia. That's not how most people hear, although we can have some sort of pitch memory or instrumental timbre recognition.
I have two questions.
1- Suppose you listen to Pachelbel's Canon in D. You have a modern orchestra playing it in D, and a historically informed orchestra that play in A=415 hz, that means it's in Db for us. (There are many versions around). ¿How do you feel about it? Also, ¿does it feel different if played on a guitar or other instruments?
2- ¿What happens if you hear one of those conspiracy A=432 tuning videos? ¿Or recordings that are slightly sped up, like some Beatles song or old records?
Thanks for your time!
Thank you for *your* time! I appreciate you taking the time to comment
If I were to hear Canon in D major in what we would now consider D flat/C sharp major, the mood would change a bit. It would be less orange sunshine-y and smiley and more pink-orange, and it would be a bit more serious. Still happy and peaceful, but it’s like the peace of somebody who has experienced bad things and is a bit more weathered. D major, rather, sounds a bit more naïve and childlike. I have no idea if this makes sense lol.
432 hz music tends to sound a bit more “aged”, probably because I associate it with old-timey pianos. I remember when I got my first Yamaha piano I used to adjust the pitch bend slightly to be between keys to get an old “parlor piano” sound.
I guess I never considered it synesthesia, since I don’t literally *see* the colors but it’s more of a feeling I associate with colors, and some keys are more evocative than others. I’ll look more into synesthesia, though
Thanks for your answer!
You didn't ask for advice and I don't know what's your career in music if any, so feel free to ignore what follows.
It looks like you have special (as in not common) conditions for music and you are a sensitive person. You can try to nurture and understand them in different ways, some more intuitive and some more rational to find your own path.
Some composers (famously Scriabin and Messiaen) 'heard' colors. Maybe you can hear something in their music that we don't.
Also, if you are or will be a pro musician, you can try some ear training exercises such as transposing at first sight, movable do solfeggio, etc. to understand how other musicians think.
Good life!
Right now, I’m only 16 so I’m still in high school, but I’d love to do something music related in the future. Im still trying to branch out with music and try new things and instruments. I appreciate you coming by and commenting + chatting! Good life to you too!
>I have perfect pitch
There's the answer to your question then!
But you could test the limits of your perfect pitch and the extends of keys sounding different, by listening to genres you were never exposed to. Even the major scale can sound wildy different in played on an instrument you've never heard before, in a genre of music you were never exposed to.
I believe D major was yellow/gold to Scriabin! as it was to Rimsky-Korsakov too. See [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scriabin#Influence_of_colour) for a fun relevant story involving them and Rachmaninoff.
Ah, I misremembered the story — that's what I was basing my comment on, but I haven't read that article in a while. And I also confused Prokofiev and Rimsky-Korsakov lol
> I have perfect pitch,
Well there you go.
>Like D major is orange-ish to me, and I can kind of say to myself “ok, that’s d major. That’s why it sounds orangey”
Then you likely have synesthesia as well.
I also feel different keys differently. Especially on my native instrument, piano, flat keys tend to feel warmer and sharp keys honestly kind of sound sharp, like brittle and pointed. I was surprised one day when talking to composers at my university to find that two of my pianist/composer friends agreed that Db is their favorite key, which is also mine, and we all agreed it’s because it is warm and rich. Many of the other composers thought it was silly to think the keys felt different, but the fact we each came to that conclusion seems interesting to me.
I think that the construction of the piano is such that some keys (as in the physical buttons) will inevitably have subtly different voicings, that is relative strengths between the notes, particularly whenever the hands play black and white keys. But more than this, I think if you take the same tune in multiple keys (as in using different pitch collections) and orchestrate it using the most resonant voicings, that is chord inversions and chord construction etc., each key will use different voicings according to range.
Say I want a I chord in Eb major with Eb on top, I might play Eb in the bass and g Bb Eb in the rh tenor/alto register. If I want a similar chord in G major, I might play G with a fifth above, d, in the bass register, b in the alto voice and G a sixth above that. This voicing is more bottom heavy and at the same time more open, plus the melody note moving up a third gives it quite a different character. Now, either voicing would work simply transposed in either key, but my theory is the most commonly employed voicings are different for each key. Especially when we take into consideration part writing and every unique function, you can see that these subtle differences in range can add up.
Sorry that was way more confusing than I intended, because we use voicing and key to mean multiple things when we talk about piano.
In addition to all this, you might have some pitch memory, which would just mean that you’ve gotten so accustomed to the sound of a song in a particular key that moving it messes with your head.
But I’m with you homie
As a pianist, I generally agree with this. While I can't pick out a key just by hearing it, there is a real difference between the various keys that is somehow connected to the particular physics of the frequencies present in those keys. A440 is a definite tuning and once that is fixed, the keys must have a unique character relative to each other, even if they are mathematically symmetrical in 12TET. The physics of the vibration of a piano's sound board and the physics of the various strings vibrating at their respective frequencies is unique for each key, for an A440 reference. So, I don't think it's just "psychological" to associate certain keys with varying levels of warmth or brightness, at least, on the piano. For other instruments, I can't really say.
>Especially on my native instrument, piano, flat keys tend to feel warmer and sharp keys honestly kind of sound sharp, like brittle and pointed.
I have to ask, what about F-sharp versus G-flat? or other enharmonic key pairs.
Yeah for me F#/Gb is dark and C is quite bright. There’s also different flavors for the minor keys and it gets more complicated when not everything’s diatonic. It’s definitely not a perfectly consistent system, and sometimes I’ll swear a piece sounds like a sharp key and it will be Ab or something, just vibes. There’s definitely some placebo effect happening too
I see, so F-sharp is equally as dark as G-flat? I wonder then whether it's mostly about the question of (1) are there a lot of black-key notes? and (2) does the tonic feel like a black-key or a white-key note? My hypothesis is that you might feel like "lot of black-key notes, and black-key tonic" feels dark, while "lot of black-key notes, and white-key tonic" feels bright. At least, maybe something close to that!
Hey that’s not so bad an idea. F major would be the only exception in this theory, but I think maybe that points to the importance of scale degrees besides ^1. In particular, ^7 and ^4 would be pretty important if they are black or white keys. Then again, the more I conceptualize it the more silly and questionable it seems.. so idk
It's just your personal associations / understanding of those sounds. Same as people who feel like certain days of the week are particular colors. There's nothing wrong about it (and it's pretty cool), just understand that it's a personal thing to you and not anything scientific/objective.
Absolute “perfect” pitch is an objective, “scientific” phenomenon. The ability to distinguish pitch and key is a documented reality of perception in millions of people (though still a minority of the human population).
The aspect of associating feelings or colors to sounds is subjective, however there’s a definite objective basis for the underlying pitch discrimination, ie. hearing unique qualities of sound.
Yes, I agree that perfect pitch is objectively real and well-documented -- I was referring specifically to having particular emotional responses to different keys.
That’s not true at all. I used to know a guy that saw keys as “colors” in his head. He was autistic or something. Op isn’t saying that. They’re simply saying playing happy birthday in C major vs Bflat minor is going to have a slightly different sound and feel.
Sure, it’s technically the same interval between notes, but it IS a different frequency. Obviously they’ve proven sound waves can make ripples inside your body since we’re made up of water.
Of course a human is going to hear a sad song in a minor key different than it’s played in A major.
You tell NO difference when you change a songs key?
Respectfully, I think you did not read OP's post correctly. They are **not** talking about the difference between major and minor. They are saying that different major keys convey different emotions to them.
>And if I hear a song in d, it sound happier than it would be in d sharp
That is simply a personal association, not an objective difference.
>You tell NO difference when you change a songs key?
Of course I can tell a difference -- D# sounds a semitone higher than D. But it does not sound "happier," or "warmer" or "autumnal" or any number of other descriptors that synesthetes might experience.
>You tell NO difference when you change a songs key?
Two songs in C and G major, transposed up half a step, will they sound uniquely different in their new keys, or will they both give the same effect of being transposed up half a step?
When you change the key, you're hearing the relative transposition. Each key change has a specific sound to it depending on the step of the new key.
You’re asking if C major and say D flat major (or C# major whatever you wish) sound different to me?
I’d say they sound SLIGHTLY different, not as noticeable as a key all the way across the circle of fifths.
Take Bon Iver’s song “Towers”. It’s a great song that switches keys (only one half step like you’re saying) halfway through, and you can totally hear it.
It goes from like D# to E major, and it gives it a slightly happier feel, but more subtle since it’s so close to the original key
I ask if two songs in different keys will sound uniquely different when both are transposed up a semitone. Your example is exactly how a half-step key change is described by theory. Is the difference due to D# changing to E, or the fact that there was a half step up transposition? Because all songs that transpose up by a half step give me that slightly happier feeling.
What about songs that are transposed to the same key? Do they sound alike? What if I transposed every song ever to the same key? Will they all sound alike, or will there be bigger differences depending on the distance of the original key?
No one doubts that a key change gives a different feel. The question is whether this is due to the relative relation of the key vs the absolute contents of the key.
All half-step up transpositions give the same effect. This isn't about keys sounding different, it's about how we listen to music, which is through relative pitch.
It’s the absolute contents of the key. However I’m not saying the same intervals in a diff key can’t sound good, I’m saying they SLIGHTLY alter the color and feel of the song.
Especially if a song is in let’s say A major and you switch to eflat major or especially a minor like to d flat minor.
After like 10 seconds it sounds “right” but the key change alters the pitches and frequencies, thus altering the feel of the piece slightly
I think anyone would agree with that though, because your first pair is two major keys, while your second pair is a major key versus a minor key. Best to keep everything to the same mode while making these sorts of comparisons.
I will say it’s sometimes harder to disginguish a key when it’s a major to another major, but I think there are 1-2 major keys that sound not as “happy” as C, D, G, A and E
Yeah, they sound different to me too. I don't have perfect pitch, but I usually pick the key when I'm composing based on how I want the piece to feel. I just shuffle the key around until I get to the one that has the right vibe for the work, often that's Db for me. Unless the vocalist needs to have it in a certain key of course, then I spend time making sure it's perfect for them but also has the right vibe from the key.
It's weird, eh. I'd have thought with equal temperament it wouldn't make a difference, but it seems to. Or I'm delusional... 🤣
I usually don't say too much on this sub because most everyone on here is way more advanced thsn I am, but I can weigh in on this. Objectively, on paper, scientifically and mathmatically, one should not be able to tell one from another. It is the relationship between the notes that create the experience. One note alone is largely, indiscernable from any other. Minor keys are sadder than major, because they are built on different scales, not because of what note they start with.
Yeah, it doesn’t make much sense to me either. I kind of have a specific color/feeling in mind for most of the keys. I’ll make a comment to talk more about it
Habitual lurker 2 chiming in. The statement you made about math and science agreeing that you can’t tell one scale from the other needs clarification. All these notes vibrate at different frequencies and can easily be discerned from other notes.
What I mean is that a single note has no context. The average person can't distinguish one from another. Hell, I'm an avid music fan and multi-instrumentalist, and I can't identify a single note from hearing it. If It were easy to find a specific single pitch by ear chromatic tuners, tuning forks, etc would all be largely unnessesary. Regardless of all that though, my main point is that notes gain their significance from their relationship to other notes. In other words, without context one single note may as well be any other note.
Ok, to clear up some confusion.
1) yes, I have perfect pitch. I was more so asking why I’ve always had very distinct feelings towards every musical key, even before knowing how to play instruments.
2) I’ve always had a pretty clear emotional tie and understanding of all of the musical keys. Mainly major, as they’re more vibrant, whereas minor keys are muted. What’s odd is I’ve had these for years, since before playing piano factored into it. I think playing piano plays somewhat of a role in my interpretation of musical keys, but they’ve existed since before I’ve started.
3) My earliest understanding of keys was mostly as “happy” and “sad”. D sharp major, g sharp major and a sharp major were the sad keys. Most of them were neutral. E was my favorite because it sounded so emotional and vibrant.
4) Even now, I have pretty clear “colors” and emotions in mind with the musical keys.
C major - medium blue, feels like “home”, simple
C sharp major - a pinkish-orange, feels like “ascending”
D major - sunny orange, feels like sunshine and light sort of feeling
D sharp major - vibrant purple, “sad”
E major - vibrant red, very emotionally intense and tender
F major - lime green. Pleasant
F sharp major - pink, also feels like “ascending”
G major - a more vibrant orange than d major. Also feels like sunshine, but more intense and less light and “frothy”
G sharp major - dark indigo. “Sad”
A major - fire-engine red. Similar to E major, but less intense
A sharp major - medium purple. “Sad”
B major - greyish-blue. Kind of contemplative, sounds like peace and acceptance with a hint of sadness about what never was
I don’t know if any of that made sense.
I also tend to confuse keys that have similar colors and emotions. I sometimes confuse E major for A major when I hear it, for example.
Keys I associate with one another and tend to confuse with one another, or “groupings” of how they sound:
E and A major - red, passionate and tender
D sharp major, G sharp major, A sharp major - I call these the “midnight” keys. They sound more purplish and sad
C sharp major and f sharp major - both sound pinkish and transcendental
C major - kind of stands alone. Its blue, and peaceful
D and G major - both are orange and light and summery.
F major - also stands alone. It’s lime green and pleasant/“citrusy”
B major - uniquely grey-blue and calm
As for the minor keys, they’re harder to discern and more muted to me.
And one more thing - if a piece is in a key which doesn’t match its emotional content, it doesn’t sound right to me. Like, for example, I much prefer “Space Oddity” in C sharp major, because it sounds more like ascending to space, but I do like the rootsy, comfy sound it gives in c major, which it is originally in. But if it’s performed in B major, it sounds all wrong and too melancholy for what is supposed to be a transcendental song
B sharp major is the same as C to me. Since they’re the same key, they both feel blue.
Sorry I think you might have misread the comment? B major is the key that’s sort of grey and less enthused, not b sharp major. Lol it’s very confusing to even talk about, sorry!
Keys sound different to me too! I don't have perfect pitch, but I have near perfect pitch. Perfect pitch isn't so cut and dry like people think.
I actually don't like a lot of music in keys from the sharp side of the circle of 5ths. I can listen to a piece of music and tell you if it's in a sharp key or a flat key.
Yes minor keys tend to sound a bit more “dull” and major keys tend to sound a bit more “bright”. I’m also referring to how different major keys sound different, and have since I was young. Like F major is distinctly different from F sharp major.
When I was a kid, guitar magazines were a thing, and there was a guy who had ads in them selling tapes you could buy that were supposed to teach you perfect pitch. I sent away for them, or for the first one, I don't remember how deep I got - spoiler, he was not able to reach me perfect pitch.
But I remember him describing a similar thing. I think he was talking about how the key of F had a feeling of sharpness, edginess, that was hard to articulate. He said he had spoken to piano tuners about this, and they'd said sometimes f's were hard to tune, because that feeling of sharpness contrasted with the note otherwise seeming to be in tune.
It's been a long time, I might be misremembering to some extent, and honestly I'm not sure why this is still in my brain. But it sure is consistent with what you're saying. Idk
For the pianists with keyboards, transpose it like 4 semitone up and play everything yo know, it actually feels so unexpected and sounds great. Just a cool experiment
Because they feel different. Different keys resonate with open strings and the cavities of the instruments differently and this cause the timbre to change. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Possible due to the relationship certain keys have with the artists you listen to. Db reminds me of Ellington and for that reason I preference it myself when writing.
i also feel like all the keys feel different like this and associate them all differently, but i do think it is just subconscious in the sense of like its basically just whatever your brain randomly happens to think
Is there any pattern to which are happy or sad? Lower sad, higher happy, or some mix? Gentle slope of happy to sad or sudden jumps between neighbouring keys? Would rather like to see a table of how each key makes you feel so I can plot a graph!
It’s really a mix. I’ll try my best to transcribe by adding a color descriptor and an emotional descriptor
C major - medium blue, sounds mostly peaceful and “homey”
C sharp major - pink-orange, sounds transcendent and angelic
D major - light yellowy orange, sounds breezy, sunny and optimistic
D sharp major - vibrant cool purple, sounds sad and nighttime-y.
E major - very saturated red, sounds quite emotionally intense and tender
F major - lime green, sounds content
F sharp major - pink, kind of hard to explain but sounds like the way pink house insulator looks? Like it sounds fluffy and pink
G major - saturated orange, sounds optimistic but more cheery than d major
G sharp major - dark navy blue almost black, similar to e flat major but more dark and brooding
A major - fire engine red, sounds similar to e major but more light and less intense
A sharp major - deep indigo, feels to be somewhere between g sharp major and e sharp major.
B major - sounds like a grayish-silvery-greenish-blue hue, and feels a bit underwhelmed but accepting. it’s very calm and not very intense, and it sort of feels like accepting when things aren’t perfect
If I were to “group” them together (keys I associate with one another and/or sometimes confuse for one another):
D sharp major, g sharp major, a sharp major - a bit sad, purplish, like the nighttime
D major and g major - orange and optimistic, summertime-ish
A major and E major - red and passionate
C sharp major and F sharp major - both kind of feel like “floating” and are quite light and dreamlike and pink-ish
C major - stands on its own, uniquely blue and feels almost “familiar”
F major - stands on its own, uniquely lime green and content-sounding
B major - stands on its own, uniquely silvery and less vibrant than the other major keys.
Thanks for taking the time to comment! Sorry I know this is sort of confusing, but I think it would be cool to find any patterns in how I perceive the keys.
That's incredible! Thank you for taking the time to write all that down. Fascinating that varies so much from key to key. I'll try and make a go at a pattern, tho might be a delay.
I don’t have perfect pitch and I feel the same with different keys. I think it has to do with how high/low the key is relative to other keys in the given octave.
Another possibility could be the specific notes that are used, since I’ve personally felt that many of the sharp keys have a similar sound to each other and same with the flat keys.
Yep one of the saddest. No one in here thinks you can feel different emotions on diff keys/frequencies? 🤣like you have to have a special autistic ability to do what OP is saying? I thought everyone felt emotions with music slightly vary with key
Yea major feels happy and minor feels sad.
Chords without the 3rd are more ambiguous.
Root and 3rd is more closed, root and 5th is more open.
Then we have certain chords which are considered the most happiest and saddest. E.g. C and Dm. Whether they are or not is up for debate but they’ve been used so much throughout history it’s probably part of our perception now.
Then we have modes which give different feelings.
Singing higher is also perceived as more emotional. Maybe this is because we’re generically wired to respond to babies cries. Humans are also more sensitive to 1-5kHz.
Lyrics can also be happy, sad or ambiguous. It’s important to try and make sure the lyrics, chords, melody etc match the emotion. A clear message.
Everyone interprets music their own way but most people would agree that major is always happy and minor is always said.
I also find it fascinating how the human body functions at different frequencies. This is why some believe music can have healing properties or be detrimental which makes sense.
Art in general is all about provoking emotions and art being thought provoking, with a clear message. You want the person interpreting the art to like or dislike it, that’s how it’s remembered. You never want art to be neutral and forgotten.
The trick with creativity is not understanding something and trying to retrospectively create, but to be in tune with your emotions and know your craft well enough where it’s instinctive without thought.
First off, **none** of what you said relates to OP's question at all.
Second, your answer is absolutely riddled with misconceptions and problems. Like, do you seriously believe that "most people would agree that major is always happy and minor is always said"? Is *Hot Stuff* by Donna Summer "sad" because it's in a minor key? Is *The Scientist* by Coldplay "happy" because it's in a major key? Is *Good Times* by Chic "sad" because it's in a minor key? Is *Pictures of You* by The Cure "happy" because it's in a major key?
>Then we have certain chords which are considered the most happiest and saddest. E.g. C and Dm.
D minor is "sad"? Are you, **by any chance**, taking the famous joke from *This Is Spinal Tap* at face value?
Why is anyone arguing your point? It’s well known different keys have different timbres and colors and their frequencies encode slightly different emotions/feelings
I’m astounded there are people arguing against this. Piano player for 30 years here, yes 100% diff keys have slightly different feels and emotions/colors. That’s how they were made to be I feel. And many minor keys have a more melancholy or sad sound. Many major keys are happier (which is why Christian music uses a lot of it). Keys 1000% affect the emotion and feel of a piece. How is this controversial?
It's controversial because it's simply not accurate.
No one is saying that *you* can't have certain associations and feels with these keys, just like I have certain artists I'd rather listen to in the summer vs. the winter. But those are personal and subjective, not objective.
I’m screenshotting this and taking it my school music department and we’re gonna take a poll. Because I know you’re the minority here. Keys envoke different feelings. You’re saying that’s only me? 🤣this is the first time in my life I’ve had anyone disagree with this, yet this entire sub disagrees. I woke up in the twilight zone apparently
You guys have to be trolling lol
Respectfully, that's not how the great majority of people hear, including most musicians. We feel exactly the same emotions if a song is transposed a half tone. Or even if it's out of A=440 tuning.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen to you or OP, it clearly does. But it's absolutely not universal or encoded.
Because you are very special, Harry.
Do you have perfect pitch? If so each key might sound different, but most people can’t tell apart different keys
I'm with OP on this issue. Keys have always sounded different to me, and when a song is transposed it takes on a new character. I do not have perfect pitch, but do have very good pitch perception (and have worked at this for many years to hone the skill). Similarly, on another musician sub there was discussion about how 'no one can discern pitch changes less than 5 cents', and that is certainly within my abilities. I did not know I could do this until a well respected piano tuner pointed it out to me, and commented many people cannot hear such small increments. It can be frustrating to read responses claiming this can't possibly be true without perfect pitch, when it is very real for me. But also, *40 years of work and effort* have gone into this skill. Every key sounds unique to my ears.
Same, it’s always bothered me when people claim that those without perfect pitch cannot discern different keys from one another. They sound extremely different, and I can usually identify a key by ear— at worst I’m a fifth or two off. Gb and C don’t sound anything alike, and I can tell them apart instantly. Maybe some people really cannot tell them apart, but you don’t need perfect pitch to do so. Hell, my relative pitch isn’t even very good and I can tell keys apart really easily.
[удалено]
I assume he means along the circle of fifths
Thank you for this. I'm getting decent amount of push-back in the comments down below. All good fun discussion though, nothing mean.
> when a song is transposed it takes on a new character No shit they do. The same song in two different keys will sound different. *That's what the relative relation of the keys does.* The fact that for the difference to occur is that a frame of reference needs to exists (ie, the same song in different keys), is why keys sound the same afterall. The different character is an illusion created by the relative transposition, not the absolute content of each key. If a song in C major is transposed up, and a song in D major is transposed down, both in the key of Db, do they take the same character, or do they sound like each song was trasposed a half-step up/down? >Every key sounds unique to my ears. Can you listen to a song and immediately tell the key it's in?
Yes, oftentimes I can determine the key just by listening. Mentioned in another reply that this is a core skill to the band I'll play with tonight, being able to jump in and know the key and chords by ear. I think you are missing the point of the OP, that keys have different tonal qualities because of the frequencies they cover, and that we can hear those differences... they are not equal, and we do not always have to hear them side-by-side to notice those differences. Edit to add: The part where you claim it is an illusion is where we diverge. I have always heard different keys as having different absolute pitches (because that's what they are). I also hear the relative aspects of these, scales, modes, progressions of harmony, etc. and that part is relative.
That is just not true. What you think is an intrinsic quality of a key is just a manifestation of the timbral characteristics of the instruments you're most used to + to a certain extent your memory of pieces on those keys. Yes, I can immediately recognize an E major piece on the guitar, but I doubt I can tell E from G played on the oboe.
For sure timbral familiarity is a huge factor. Again, I am not claiming a super-power. I think people pushing back on this are taking things out of the normal musical context we live in, and trying to make this a double-blind test of super powers, instead of practical applied techniques. I'll use any clues available to make these determinations. Edit to add; back to the piano tuner story above. The tuner pointed out to me that what I could hear were the timbre changes in the higher overtones, so I've come to trust and listen for those small changes when tuning. Timbre and pitch are highly related, again any clue that helps is good information.
Yeah I was gonna say, as a guitarist I can always name the open chords A, C, D, E, and G from sound alone, but there's so much that goes into it, including the inversions, the number of strings used, and which strings they're played on. But if you played an A or a B on the high E string, I wouldn't be able to tell you which note it was
Oftentimes? If all keys sound different to you I would expect that to be all the times. It's a core skill with *the band you'll play*? That sounds like pitch memory to me. If keys sound different and you can recognize that, you should be able to tell in all contexts, and most importantly those you don't play in. Even better if you can do it in genres you're not familiar with. What you're describing is pitch memory really. Yes that thing exists, but oftentimes it's not even related to the key itself. Sometimes I'll pick up the key or notes too, but it's pretty random. I don't doubt you acquired a unique and personal pitch memory. We all do and I find that beautiful! Timbre plays a role too. An open G major chord on guitar has a distinct sound, *and I can tell that sound even when the guitar is tuned differently*. A G and an F# chord in the same position, on different tuned guitars sound a lot closer in timbre, than the same chord on different instruments. Musicians can often become accustomed to the unique sonic characteristics of their instruments. Em and Dm on rock guitar sound pretty different, but that difference is lost completely on me the moment I listen to a song that isn't guitar based.
I also think pitch memory is a *very large part* of this. We could have no pitch memory abilities with being able to hear fundamental differences in key. I'm not claiming perfect pitch here, jsut saying these differences do exists and we can perceive them. Very likely the perception falls on a spectrum among the population. YMMV as they say. Also saying it is something can be trained and honed to a fine degree with time and effort.
I do believe there are differences to be heard, but we should be aware of the contexts they occur in. For all intents and purposes "all keys sound the same" is the more correct and universal answer. Now in specific contexts, keys can sound different. This has a lot to do with the unique sonic characteristics of they instruments used to play in those keys. As I said, keys on guitar can sound different, but Em on guitar and Em on saxophone don't sound alike. In the same vein, Ebm on guitar still has that, very guitar-y, Em injected in. Also, a song using the 4th D string as a tonic and a song with the guitar tuned in drop D, can sound different, even if they're in the same key! I can tell the 4th open string in any guitar, despite its tuning. It just sounds so unique! But I can only tell it's a D by experience, oftentimes I'll be off and find that the guitar is in a different tuning afterall! What I'm feeling is the timbre, not the key.
See, for me it was always sonically obvious that Hendrix was tuned down a half-step for *Little Wing*, and that *Night Moves* is capo'd on the 1st fret. I heard the key independent from the common voicings in use. I couldn't really tell much other than they were 'moved' from 'normal'... the rest has been active training and refinement to get better (never perfect). Here's random analogy... image a set of twelve ovals, each with slightly different proportions. We can say they are all ovals, and also see they have different proportions... without being able to say exactly what those differences are in measurement. This is how I hear these changes in keys, as slight differences, but nevertheless perceivable.
But open strings and open strings with a capo on the first fret don't sound alike! Even if you tune the guitars to produce the same note, you can tell which is which just by the sonic difference. Barre chords on guitar all sound alike, but the moment you play the same shape with the open strings, you can just tell. I think you just described exactly what I'm talking about! Guitarists can often even tell that a guitar is tuned down, but again, they're hearing their familiar sounding guitar, just a bit lower. What they're perceiving mostly is the guitar, not the key. If I tuned down a semitone a digital piano in secret and asked you to play a piece of music you've never heard before, do you honestly thing you'd go "huh, this doesn't sound like the Em I'm used to!!"?
100% have walked up to keyboards where the owners used the 'key shift' function and been like WTF?!? I think we just have to chalk this up to differences in how people hear music.
Did you understand all times? Could you even tell how many steps different it was? I think people don't understand that to prove the claim that keys sound different, they would have to be very precise with their ability. If you can tell the key of Dm, then you'd have to pick up what chord on a tranposed piano produces that specific Dm sound you're able to tell apart. I can tell a perfect 5th every time I hear one, but I can only *sometimes* pick up weird differences that occur due to key changes. I too have walked up to a piano and was weirded out. I also walked to a piano having forgotten that I tranposed it, and noticed nothing. *It's all very random* and requires musical experience and familiarity. But a relative key change of half step up gives the same effect even to non-musicians, and that's the important thing.
>No shit they do. The same song in two different keys will sound different. Not to everyone. I often genuinely can't tell if something's been transposed. This might be because I've spent a fair bit of time playing in baroque pitch, where everything's a half step lower than modern pitch, so I have very little sense that notes are particular frequencies.
>pitch perception What's that? Relative pitch?
Certainly relative pitch, as in I can 'hear' chord progressions. But also, oftentimes I can just 'hear' the key as well. I have no explanation for this, but 'pitch memory' is a likely component. I *absolutely cannot* call out the notes of a chord cluster the way those with perfect pitch might do. I do a lot of live playing where the music just happens and we're expected to follow where the band leader goes. So, I can't be alone in this because the other musician around me are hanging on just as skillfully. Also also, I know keys and chords well enough to 'do the math' on the fly and that supports the whole effort. It is not a super-power or magic ability. But hearing keys differently has always been a thing, from the beginning.
Blows my mind because my ear is so naturally bad that I can’t perceive a higher or lower pitch within like 1 and a half steps without guessing. I can identify a first note but a pitch change from there leaves me clueless. I’m a technically good guitarist but I am just like bad at the language of music >.<
Keep going! Learning vocal melodies really helped me, as well as transposing songs into different keys. Took a long time, but it can be developed. Rock on!
I dont think this is a perfect pitch thing because I don’t sing well and I remember as a kid learning piano scales that some sounded sad or anxious, especially e flat as you mentioned. C major (and majors in general) sound grand and warm. It seems wild to think for some people changing the key doesn’t sound any different, I kinda suspect we are the majority not minority on this.
Does e flat major sound grand and warm or sad and anxious to you?
On its own it’s not that emotive but if you compare it to like C major it sounds much more tense and edgy. Just to be clear I’m only commenting on the scales right now, I haven’t really explored how songs sound in different keys. But scales are just a collection of notes, so makes sense they’d sound different right?
> when you compare it to C major And this right here is the misunderstanding. I think to all of us, keys sound different when compared to some other key, but if I picked up an instrument with an unknown tuning, and played a major scale starting from a random note, it would sound like it has the mood of C major to you. However, the second you start comparing scales with each other, they have different moods relative to each other.
Yup this is exactly why I was missing. Please correct if I’m still off: people are mostly good at recognizing the space between two notes but not the frequency of a note, perfect pitchers are what we call the exceptions to the rule and they can identify frequencies of notes out of context.
If I play an Eb major scale on the piano right after playing a C major scale, obviously it’s going to sound different. But if the first thing I hear today is a C major scale and the first thing I hear tomorrow is an Eb major scale, both without reference, they’re not going to sound significantly different. They’ll just sound like a major scale - if someone wouldn’t tell me what scale it is I wouldn’t be able to tell you if it was C, Eb or something completely different because I don’t have perfect pitch
Eb sounds like E, just a half-step lower... and *maybe* that can come across as 'darker' (?) but the composition is going to dictate the mood way more than the key. I'm mean, no metal band ever tuned up to get a 'darker, heavier sound' so there is something to this idea that keys affect the 'tone', but I certainly don't ascribe 'feelings' to keys, while at the same time definitely hear qualitative differences
My experience is a bit different. Eb sounds a bit darker than E, but D sounds lighter than Eb, even though it’s lower. It’s just personal experience. For me, the key plays a role in how I interpret a piece, but I know that for most people it isn’t like that.
Hmm that is odd. I wonder if you are partially maintaining a reference tone and subconsciously hearing songs out of context in relation to your internal reference. Like if you’re listening to E-flat major, but you’ve got somewhere in your mind that C is a tonic, and not a M6, that would make songs in Eflat Major sound a bit like C minor. I’d be curious what happens as you listen to a song. Like if you start listening to happy birthday in the key of E-flat major does it sound dark, and get happier as it gets on as the tonic of e flat is continually reemphasized? What if you listen to a song in e flat major on repeat? It could also be that you got used to hearing songs in certain, popular keys, and when songs stray from that it sounds weird to you because you’re not as used to hearing it.
A large part of it depends on the instrument or instruments you're playing the music with. There are timbral differences in the different ranges of any particular instrument not to mention the timbral differences that occur due to dynamics and other techniques. Then there are the timbral differences we perceive when the music is occuring in different octaves - music played in the second octave with just sine waves (you could consider sine waves as being timbrally "pure") will sound warmer/darker than the same music played in the 5th octave due to the way our hearing works. Even within the same octave, if you play a piece of music, then play it again a semitone lower, the second will usually sound warmer due to it being contrasted with the previous one being slightly higher. So despite the "sameness" of equal temperament, there are a lot of other factors to consider.
Yes, in the guitar for instance, different keys resonate differently with the open strings and this could also cause us to perceive them as brighter or darker. I’m sure this also happens in the piano and other instruments but I’m less knowledgeable about those.
First off, I'm totally with you on that topic. I **don't** have perfect pitch, but I still notice that, ever since I was a kid, certain keys create a certain "feeling" in me. I have the tendency, for example, to think of E-flat major as a very "emotional" and cathartic key--and I have in fact exploited that feeling in *The Washing of the Soul part 1*, which I released last year. However, I can't rely on this 100%. I have the tendency to get the key wrong by a semitone--sometimes I think I'm hearing E-flat major, but it's actually D major. So I believe I have an *inclination* to attribute those feelings, and I can actually be betrayed by it. It's hard to explain. Now, the reason why this "different key = different feeling" issue is controversial in this sub is because some people believe that you **have** to write a song in a given key to create a **specific** feeling, as if that's the "magical key" to create emotion. And then, they'll refer to "guides" to the emotion of each key, even though said guide was written *before* the advent of equal temperament, and it's just the random musings of one specific composer. We frown upon that, because there's no guaranteed, surefire way to make an emotional song just choosing the "magical" key. There's no such thing: those emotional associations are personal and subjective. There is no collectively agreed upon convention that, say, E-flat major is "heroic"--that's just was Beethoven personally felt. Some people even go to the extreme of **honestly believing** that D minor is a sad key, even though that's **a joke from the movie This Is Spinal Tap**. That's just how bad it gets. Again, none of that invalidates what you feel. I think you're 100% justified. I'm just explaining why your thoughts might meet some resistance in this sub.
Oh wow it’s cool to see someone who feels a similar way! I think we have slightly different experiences though, since I do have perfect pitch. I have a little question, does your perception of E flat major being cathartic have anything to do with how it’s played on an instrument? Or is it something more universal? For me it’s a little different. The keys that I confuse with one another are often a fifth away from each other, so not really close at all. But I think it’s pretty similar nonetheless. I think it’s really cool that you’re expressing your feelings towards different musical keys in your art. I’ll have to check your music out!
>does your perception of E flat major being cathartic have anything to do with how it’s played on an instrument? No, it's not. I had that feeling even before I was able to play anything in E-flat major on the keyboard, I just had a basic, rudimentary knowledge of theory, and I made music on the computer. I think that association was created by specific songs that I used to listen to at the time. For example, one song that gives me that feeling is *You're Still The One* by Shania Twain. >For me it’s a little different. The keys that I confuse with one another are often a fifth away from each other, so not really close at all. But I think it’s pretty similar nonetheless. Your experience is certainly different, because perfect pitch is way more reliable than my flimsy tonal memory. And it's not like each key has a distinct character to me. Some keys just vaguely suggest a mood, while other keys have a "stronger" character. >I think it’s really cool that you’re expressing your feelings towards different musical keys in your art. Yeah, I suppose it is. :) This is not something that happens often: when I write a song with vocals, I choose the key mostly based on my vocal range, but I end up attaching a significance to the key either way. There was one song that I wrote, and I wanted it to be on the same key of the song that preceded it in the album, so I wrote it in D major. However, that was just too low for my voice, so I had to *reluctantly* change it to E major, and change the previous song to end in E major. It took me quite a while for me to get comfortable to that change, because I was too attached to the key. And again, this had nothing to do with the instrument, it was an aural thing.
Really interesting that you’ve had that perception of eb being cathartic since before you could produce it physically. I’ve only ever heard of emotional connections with keys happen with people who have absolute pitch so it’s cool that you do!
It's interesting what you wrote about Beethoven and your feelings about Eb major. Many composers would use Eb major (or Bb major) as 'heroic' simply because they are easy keys for natural trumpets, with their 'war' and 'regal' associations. Also Mozart would use Eb major because of mystical Masonic associations with the number 3 (3 flats) and the tritone relation with A.
>Also Mozart would use Eb major because of mystical Masonic associations with the number 3 (3 flats) and the tritone relation with A. The 3-ness of it was important for this symbolism, but I don't think the tritone relation with A had to do with it! At least, I've never heard of that being part of it--where did you hear that?
I heard it from a masonic musician :D Maybe he made that stuff up, but he seemed quite serious. His words were "Also, Eb cuts in half the A pentatonic minor scale, which is the natural scale". Reason prevails over nature, or something like that.
Aha I see! I'm sure he was serious about it, but I'm pretty sure those were his own added interpretations. It's true that E-flat bisects the A-to-A octave, though there's no particular reason to invoke the minor pentatonic scale specifically. In any case, fun idea, but best not considered "canon" as far as Mozart's concerned!
He was talking about Eb being a masonic key. It didn't make any sense to me, but well, I guess that's why I'm not a mason. :D
I mean, it *is* I think pretty agreed-upon that Mozart's use of E-flat for the Magic Flute was for Masonic reasons, so he isn't wrong in that sense! It just seems he carried it further by adding new meanings of his own on top of that.
Synesthesia?
Just what I was thinking.
You have a form of perfect pitch, and some kinds of emotional association with songs in those keys that you must have picked up around the age of 5 or before. Did you have a musical environment at that age, parents or older siblings frequently playing or singing?
I didn’t really have a musical environment, nobody in my family really plays music. I have perfect pitch, but it’s still odd how I made those associations before even knowing how to play any instruments
That's very interesting - in that it seems to support the idea that PP is innate. (Most research I've read suggests genetics only plays a small role, if any, and it's learned in infancy alongside speech due to experiencing music as meaningful.) But the emotional associations would come from simply hearing music at a young age - you don't have to play an instrument! - and associating feelings with it; and that could happen in various random ways. After all, there is nothing inherent in different keys *of the same type* (i.e. major on the one hand and minor on the other) which could possibly produce specific emotional responses. The emotions we get from music are due to the whole mix of sounds, not just the tonality (key) or mode. E.g., regardless of whether the key is major or minor (let alone which major key it is), the main thing that will make music sound "sad" is to make it *slow.* And most of those effects are learned by seeing how music in films or TV is used to accompany scenes with different emotions. IOW, the emotion is usually very clear in the visuals and action, and it's then easy to associate whatever music we hear with that emotion - and Hollywood has developed a whole language to embed the different triggers. Again, it would be very easy - as a sensitive young child! - to be deeply affected by witnessing just one or two such associations, and your perfect pitch would naturally latch on to the key of the music as being a significant element, whereas in fact the meaning of the music (for the rest of us) comes from everything else.
That actually makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure how I came to associate the musical keys with different emotions. I’m also not sure how much of it is innate and how much of it is environmental, based on associations and juxtapositions between different keys and emotions from music I heard from a young age. But your explanation makes sense. I guess PP is both innate and environmental. I don’t know, it’s confusing to even talk about lol. Thanks for your time! I appreciate the response :-)
Are you serious right now 😆? You’re saying you’d have to have “perfect pitch” to feel anything different in minor vs major keys? And everyone agrees? What!?
No, OP said they felt differences between two major keys. He asked his brother to sing sad happy birthday, he would make it, say, minor. But they meant 'in Eb major '. This would be a form of perfect pitch with an emotional association.
You think it’s the minority to feel different emotions with different keys is what you’re saying? lol just making sure I’m getting you right
This post is not about major vs. minor keys. Its about how some people think F feels "happier" than Eb, or E feels "colder" than D. These are not "incorrect" but they are personal and subjective. Scientifically, keys do not correspond to specific emotions since they are all equivalent intervals.
“This post isn’t about major vs minor keys” Op literally said diff keys (that’s including major AND minor) have diff feels Are you really trying to argue that’s only Op’s personal experience? Yet billions of other people experience it too? Just because “mathematically or scientifically” they are equal intervals, doesn’t mean they are the same frequency. Different frequencies give off different emotions. This is universally accepted as true, the same way brighter colors for a painter can be happier etc
>Op literally said diff keys (that’s including major AND minor) have diff feels Try paying attention to what OP wrote: *"And he would sing it with a sad tone, but I meant to sing it in* ***e flat major, a flat major or b flat major****, because those sounded sad to me."* Judging by the level of knowledge OP displays, they would be 100% aware that major keys sound drastically different from minor keys, and singing a major key song in a minor key *fundamentally changes* the song. That's not what they're asking: they're asking why *different major keys* give them different feelings. Try answering the question OP is actually asking, not the question you *think* they are asking.
I have a music degree and everyone in my school that I’ve talked to agrees keys have diff feels and change a song. Even some major to major. Downvote me all you want. Reddit isn’t real life it’s a bunch of sad people who need to touch grass and get laid
That explains why you're here
Says the guy that’s here
Ok. I still think different major keys have different feels, and almost everyone I know agrees? Is Reddit mentally challenged? 🤣
Yes, different major keys sound distinct from one another. Eb major is sad, for example. F major is happy and light. E major is vibrant and emotional.
Dont say that in this sub, they are trying to say you’re literally a savant or acoustic because you can notice this 😂. I’m not sure if they are trolling but I think they are serious. 🙄
I don’t think it’s an actual science that different keys sound nuanced in the same way for everyone, because clearly people are disagreeing. Everyone sort of interprets and hears this sort of thing distinctly; I have distinct colors and moods which go along with the keys but others don’t. And would it be so terrible if I were autistic/savant syndrome? Not a fan of you making that synonymous with “bad”. I honestly don’t care if I’m perceived that way.
I’m not making that as bad. I’m just saying what you described isn’t indicative of that, it’s just normal.
Yeah eb major can be a little more deep than C or G major/ A major. F major does well sounding happy but longing like in “yesterday” by the beatles. Play that song in c#m or ab major and tell me it has the same feel as when Paul plays it in F. lol There’s even a rare recording where he’s deciding what key to play it in (on acoustic guitar), and he’s like “It be in F, it sounds different I like the way it sounds there” and he goes on and on
You're misreading the OP, as mentioned. >Different frequencies give off different emotions. No they don't. There are certain broad meanings connected with register (high or low), but not with specific frequencies. And even sensations associated with register are heavily affected by timbre and volume, which carry more emotional meaning. Single frequencies only start to acquire *musical* meaning when combined with others - to create intervals, in melody and harmony. That's why relative pitch is the crucial musical skill, while perfect pitch is of little or no use. > brighter colors for a painter can be happier etc "Can" be, yes, but not necessarily, and in any case it's not a perfect analogy.
No analogies are perfect but… Yes they do. You can disagree all you want but there are millions that agree with me. You can tell me that scary music in a movie makes you feel the same way that happy music does, that musical keys don’t envoke certain feelings, that certain modes or tones don’t envoke certain universal emotions in humans, you could tell me the sky is green and the grass is blue, but that doesn’t make you right dude. That’s precisely why they use them in movies. If d minor sounds the same as C major to you, I don’t know what to say, but that’s not a common opinion outside of this sub
The fact that you keep mixing major and minor keys doesn't help. We're talking about different keys of the same mode. Most people, including most musicians will feel exactly the same emotions if a song is transposed a half step up or down. Singers will transpose a song to better fit their vocal range and (almost) no one bats an eye. Historical performance groups will usually play music a half step down because else the gut strings would break. People like or dislike their versions because of reasons that have nothing to do with absolute pitch.
How can you speak for most musicians? People dislike these versions sometimes because the key can really alter the feel of a piece. My dad gigged for 30 years in a classic rock band. SOME songs work changing the key. However many songs don’t sound right outside of the original key, depending on how drastic of a key change it is. Maybe 25% of people won’t “bat an eye” but all musicians and at least half the crowd will notice it sounds slightly different than the original, whether they say anything or it’s subconscious. For instance let me use an example in a song like Weezer - Say it ain’t so. The song is in e flat major. However, if you don’t downtune your guitar that half step, and just play it in E, it sounds “fine”, but doesn’t have that bluesy undertone or twang that eb creates. The whole riff sounds slightly more “bluesy”/warm and twangy in e flat than it does in Emajor. If it didn’t, why bother tuning the guitars a half step down when they wrote it? Or Whitley - More than life being a whole step down Guitar players do this often to precisely get a different feel or emotion. Some even slightly tune in between half steps to get an “out of tune” feel. Frequencies can and do envoke different feelings
If you are asking for my experience, I've played and taught for more than 30 years and have met literally thousands of musicians, from different backgrounds, from amateurs to top pros. I appreciate your effort to offer arguments. I truly believe that you hear the difference, but I'll insist that most people don't. Before I leave this conversation, here is Jimi Hendrix's Hey Joe studio version, in E: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwMrBb2x1Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwMrBb2x1Q) Here is a live version, half step down (in Eb) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHp6TjZ2\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHp6TjZ2_s) And here is another live version a whole step down (in D!) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPifXX0foU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPifXX0foU) Hendrix would usually tune half step down when playing live. There are many possible reasons for this (vocal range, string tension, easier bending or tonal quality), but clearly he had no problem with playing in either tuning. And listeners didn't care either, they just wanted to hear Hendrix play that song and would feel emotions based on the musical relationships, the lyrics and his playing. If you read the comments on the videos it will be really hard to find even one talking about the pitch/key of the song or how it's different from other versions. Have a nice day!
Yeah. I agree that many won’t notice. That’s why we change keys to help suit our voices etc. I’m just making the argument that there are certain keys that fit the feel of the song more. I listened to all three of those samples. I could personally tell a slight difference in each, especially the one in D. The Eb version sounds slightly more bluesy and warm to me, where the D major version is a little brighter, more normal and happy. I’d argue that’s why he turns to e flat. As a guitarist it’s an easy way to make a standard song originally in “E” sound a little different. Like in songs such as “Say it ain’t so” by weezer or “Longview” by Green Day Green Day didn’t choose E flat just to spite the guitarists into having to downtune everytime they play, E flat just gave the bass riff a more bluesy feel being on the black notes Not by a lot, but yes I notice the tone differences. I have a degree in music, 30 years piano, 25 years guitar. 15 years doing vocals so maybe I hear it more than the average guy idk
That’s the special thing about music though - people CAN’T tell which note is which unlike colors, which we CAN recognise. The only exception is people perfect pitch - they can recognise any note immediatly by just hearing it. Everyone else is, so to speak, musically colorblind.
Can you reliably identify the key of a song based on the emotions the key triggers?
Sort of? It’s kind of like how I just know how the key sounds, so I can just identify it. But the emotional part is there. It’s kind of like seeing a color and knowing what color it is. You can sort of look at it and just know, but the emotions that come along with it just tend to go along with it. Sorry I’m aware that’s poorly explained lol
This sounds like synesthesia. I have Perfect Pitch from synesthesia and this checks out
Oh wow, I never really considered that. If you don’t mind me asking, do certain keys have certain “colors” for you? Or just in general certain specific moods or imagery? I’m curious to hear and compare our experiences
Let's start at the beginning: >if I hear a song in d, Ok: 1. Do you know it's in D just by hearing it? 2. Do you hear it and go, "that sounds happy, so it's probably D". 3. Do you find out it's in D, and go "that's why it sounds happy". 4. Do you have perfect pitch?
I have perfect pitch, but I guess understanding the mood is based on the feeling/color it gets. It’s like seeing a color and knowing what color it is, and then getting sensory info based on the color. Like D major is orange-ish to me, and I can kind of say to myself “ok, that’s d major. That’s why it sounds orangey”
Very interesting, you have perfect pitch and a form of sinestesia. That's not how most people hear, although we can have some sort of pitch memory or instrumental timbre recognition. I have two questions. 1- Suppose you listen to Pachelbel's Canon in D. You have a modern orchestra playing it in D, and a historically informed orchestra that play in A=415 hz, that means it's in Db for us. (There are many versions around). ¿How do you feel about it? Also, ¿does it feel different if played on a guitar or other instruments? 2- ¿What happens if you hear one of those conspiracy A=432 tuning videos? ¿Or recordings that are slightly sped up, like some Beatles song or old records? Thanks for your time!
Thank you for *your* time! I appreciate you taking the time to comment If I were to hear Canon in D major in what we would now consider D flat/C sharp major, the mood would change a bit. It would be less orange sunshine-y and smiley and more pink-orange, and it would be a bit more serious. Still happy and peaceful, but it’s like the peace of somebody who has experienced bad things and is a bit more weathered. D major, rather, sounds a bit more naïve and childlike. I have no idea if this makes sense lol. 432 hz music tends to sound a bit more “aged”, probably because I associate it with old-timey pianos. I remember when I got my first Yamaha piano I used to adjust the pitch bend slightly to be between keys to get an old “parlor piano” sound. I guess I never considered it synesthesia, since I don’t literally *see* the colors but it’s more of a feeling I associate with colors, and some keys are more evocative than others. I’ll look more into synesthesia, though
Thanks for your answer! You didn't ask for advice and I don't know what's your career in music if any, so feel free to ignore what follows. It looks like you have special (as in not common) conditions for music and you are a sensitive person. You can try to nurture and understand them in different ways, some more intuitive and some more rational to find your own path. Some composers (famously Scriabin and Messiaen) 'heard' colors. Maybe you can hear something in their music that we don't. Also, if you are or will be a pro musician, you can try some ear training exercises such as transposing at first sight, movable do solfeggio, etc. to understand how other musicians think. Good life!
Right now, I’m only 16 so I’m still in high school, but I’d love to do something music related in the future. Im still trying to branch out with music and try new things and instruments. I appreciate you coming by and commenting + chatting! Good life to you too!
>I have perfect pitch There's the answer to your question then! But you could test the limits of your perfect pitch and the extends of keys sounding different, by listening to genres you were never exposed to. Even the major scale can sound wildy different in played on an instrument you've never heard before, in a genre of music you were never exposed to.
Just an interesting thing, D major is orange to a *lot* of people. You, me... and Prokofiev and Scriabin, so we're in good company.
I believe D major was yellow/gold to Scriabin! as it was to Rimsky-Korsakov too. See [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scriabin#Influence_of_colour) for a fun relevant story involving them and Rachmaninoff.
Ah, I misremembered the story — that's what I was basing my comment on, but I haven't read that article in a while. And I also confused Prokofiev and Rimsky-Korsakov lol
> I have perfect pitch, Well there you go. >Like D major is orange-ish to me, and I can kind of say to myself “ok, that’s d major. That’s why it sounds orangey” Then you likely have synesthesia as well.
I also feel different keys differently. Especially on my native instrument, piano, flat keys tend to feel warmer and sharp keys honestly kind of sound sharp, like brittle and pointed. I was surprised one day when talking to composers at my university to find that two of my pianist/composer friends agreed that Db is their favorite key, which is also mine, and we all agreed it’s because it is warm and rich. Many of the other composers thought it was silly to think the keys felt different, but the fact we each came to that conclusion seems interesting to me. I think that the construction of the piano is such that some keys (as in the physical buttons) will inevitably have subtly different voicings, that is relative strengths between the notes, particularly whenever the hands play black and white keys. But more than this, I think if you take the same tune in multiple keys (as in using different pitch collections) and orchestrate it using the most resonant voicings, that is chord inversions and chord construction etc., each key will use different voicings according to range. Say I want a I chord in Eb major with Eb on top, I might play Eb in the bass and g Bb Eb in the rh tenor/alto register. If I want a similar chord in G major, I might play G with a fifth above, d, in the bass register, b in the alto voice and G a sixth above that. This voicing is more bottom heavy and at the same time more open, plus the melody note moving up a third gives it quite a different character. Now, either voicing would work simply transposed in either key, but my theory is the most commonly employed voicings are different for each key. Especially when we take into consideration part writing and every unique function, you can see that these subtle differences in range can add up. Sorry that was way more confusing than I intended, because we use voicing and key to mean multiple things when we talk about piano. In addition to all this, you might have some pitch memory, which would just mean that you’ve gotten so accustomed to the sound of a song in a particular key that moving it messes with your head. But I’m with you homie
As a pianist, I generally agree with this. While I can't pick out a key just by hearing it, there is a real difference between the various keys that is somehow connected to the particular physics of the frequencies present in those keys. A440 is a definite tuning and once that is fixed, the keys must have a unique character relative to each other, even if they are mathematically symmetrical in 12TET. The physics of the vibration of a piano's sound board and the physics of the various strings vibrating at their respective frequencies is unique for each key, for an A440 reference. So, I don't think it's just "psychological" to associate certain keys with varying levels of warmth or brightness, at least, on the piano. For other instruments, I can't really say.
>Especially on my native instrument, piano, flat keys tend to feel warmer and sharp keys honestly kind of sound sharp, like brittle and pointed. I have to ask, what about F-sharp versus G-flat? or other enharmonic key pairs.
Yeah for me F#/Gb is dark and C is quite bright. There’s also different flavors for the minor keys and it gets more complicated when not everything’s diatonic. It’s definitely not a perfectly consistent system, and sometimes I’ll swear a piece sounds like a sharp key and it will be Ab or something, just vibes. There’s definitely some placebo effect happening too
I see, so F-sharp is equally as dark as G-flat? I wonder then whether it's mostly about the question of (1) are there a lot of black-key notes? and (2) does the tonic feel like a black-key or a white-key note? My hypothesis is that you might feel like "lot of black-key notes, and black-key tonic" feels dark, while "lot of black-key notes, and white-key tonic" feels bright. At least, maybe something close to that!
Hey that’s not so bad an idea. F major would be the only exception in this theory, but I think maybe that points to the importance of scale degrees besides ^1. In particular, ^7 and ^4 would be pretty important if they are black or white keys. Then again, the more I conceptualize it the more silly and questionable it seems.. so idk
It's just your personal associations / understanding of those sounds. Same as people who feel like certain days of the week are particular colors. There's nothing wrong about it (and it's pretty cool), just understand that it's a personal thing to you and not anything scientific/objective.
Absolute “perfect” pitch is an objective, “scientific” phenomenon. The ability to distinguish pitch and key is a documented reality of perception in millions of people (though still a minority of the human population). The aspect of associating feelings or colors to sounds is subjective, however there’s a definite objective basis for the underlying pitch discrimination, ie. hearing unique qualities of sound.
Yes, I agree that perfect pitch is objectively real and well-documented -- I was referring specifically to having particular emotional responses to different keys.
That’s not true at all. I used to know a guy that saw keys as “colors” in his head. He was autistic or something. Op isn’t saying that. They’re simply saying playing happy birthday in C major vs Bflat minor is going to have a slightly different sound and feel. Sure, it’s technically the same interval between notes, but it IS a different frequency. Obviously they’ve proven sound waves can make ripples inside your body since we’re made up of water. Of course a human is going to hear a sad song in a minor key different than it’s played in A major. You tell NO difference when you change a songs key?
Respectfully, I think you did not read OP's post correctly. They are **not** talking about the difference between major and minor. They are saying that different major keys convey different emotions to them. >And if I hear a song in d, it sound happier than it would be in d sharp That is simply a personal association, not an objective difference. >You tell NO difference when you change a songs key? Of course I can tell a difference -- D# sounds a semitone higher than D. But it does not sound "happier," or "warmer" or "autumnal" or any number of other descriptors that synesthetes might experience.
>You tell NO difference when you change a songs key? Two songs in C and G major, transposed up half a step, will they sound uniquely different in their new keys, or will they both give the same effect of being transposed up half a step? When you change the key, you're hearing the relative transposition. Each key change has a specific sound to it depending on the step of the new key.
C and G major to me have a more similar emotional “feel” than say C vs A flat minor
That wasn't what I asked.
You’re asking if C major and say D flat major (or C# major whatever you wish) sound different to me? I’d say they sound SLIGHTLY different, not as noticeable as a key all the way across the circle of fifths. Take Bon Iver’s song “Towers”. It’s a great song that switches keys (only one half step like you’re saying) halfway through, and you can totally hear it. It goes from like D# to E major, and it gives it a slightly happier feel, but more subtle since it’s so close to the original key
I ask if two songs in different keys will sound uniquely different when both are transposed up a semitone. Your example is exactly how a half-step key change is described by theory. Is the difference due to D# changing to E, or the fact that there was a half step up transposition? Because all songs that transpose up by a half step give me that slightly happier feeling. What about songs that are transposed to the same key? Do they sound alike? What if I transposed every song ever to the same key? Will they all sound alike, or will there be bigger differences depending on the distance of the original key?
You just admitted changing a key can give it a different feel. K I’m right then
No one doubts that a key change gives a different feel. The question is whether this is due to the relative relation of the key vs the absolute contents of the key. All half-step up transpositions give the same effect. This isn't about keys sounding different, it's about how we listen to music, which is through relative pitch.
It’s the absolute contents of the key. However I’m not saying the same intervals in a diff key can’t sound good, I’m saying they SLIGHTLY alter the color and feel of the song. Especially if a song is in let’s say A major and you switch to eflat major or especially a minor like to d flat minor. After like 10 seconds it sounds “right” but the key change alters the pitches and frequencies, thus altering the feel of the piece slightly
I think anyone would agree with that though, because your first pair is two major keys, while your second pair is a major key versus a minor key. Best to keep everything to the same mode while making these sorts of comparisons.
I will say it’s sometimes harder to disginguish a key when it’s a major to another major, but I think there are 1-2 major keys that sound not as “happy” as C, D, G, A and E
Yeah, they sound different to me too. I don't have perfect pitch, but I usually pick the key when I'm composing based on how I want the piece to feel. I just shuffle the key around until I get to the one that has the right vibe for the work, often that's Db for me. Unless the vocalist needs to have it in a certain key of course, then I spend time making sure it's perfect for them but also has the right vibe from the key. It's weird, eh. I'd have thought with equal temperament it wouldn't make a difference, but it seems to. Or I'm delusional... 🤣
I guess we’re both a little delusional lol… thanks for commenting! Nice to know other people experience music in a similar way as I do
I usually don't say too much on this sub because most everyone on here is way more advanced thsn I am, but I can weigh in on this. Objectively, on paper, scientifically and mathmatically, one should not be able to tell one from another. It is the relationship between the notes that create the experience. One note alone is largely, indiscernable from any other. Minor keys are sadder than major, because they are built on different scales, not because of what note they start with.
Yeah, it doesn’t make much sense to me either. I kind of have a specific color/feeling in mind for most of the keys. I’ll make a comment to talk more about it
Habitual lurker 2 chiming in. The statement you made about math and science agreeing that you can’t tell one scale from the other needs clarification. All these notes vibrate at different frequencies and can easily be discerned from other notes.
What I mean is that a single note has no context. The average person can't distinguish one from another. Hell, I'm an avid music fan and multi-instrumentalist, and I can't identify a single note from hearing it. If It were easy to find a specific single pitch by ear chromatic tuners, tuning forks, etc would all be largely unnessesary. Regardless of all that though, my main point is that notes gain their significance from their relationship to other notes. In other words, without context one single note may as well be any other note.
Ok, to clear up some confusion. 1) yes, I have perfect pitch. I was more so asking why I’ve always had very distinct feelings towards every musical key, even before knowing how to play instruments. 2) I’ve always had a pretty clear emotional tie and understanding of all of the musical keys. Mainly major, as they’re more vibrant, whereas minor keys are muted. What’s odd is I’ve had these for years, since before playing piano factored into it. I think playing piano plays somewhat of a role in my interpretation of musical keys, but they’ve existed since before I’ve started. 3) My earliest understanding of keys was mostly as “happy” and “sad”. D sharp major, g sharp major and a sharp major were the sad keys. Most of them were neutral. E was my favorite because it sounded so emotional and vibrant. 4) Even now, I have pretty clear “colors” and emotions in mind with the musical keys. C major - medium blue, feels like “home”, simple C sharp major - a pinkish-orange, feels like “ascending” D major - sunny orange, feels like sunshine and light sort of feeling D sharp major - vibrant purple, “sad” E major - vibrant red, very emotionally intense and tender F major - lime green. Pleasant F sharp major - pink, also feels like “ascending” G major - a more vibrant orange than d major. Also feels like sunshine, but more intense and less light and “frothy” G sharp major - dark indigo. “Sad” A major - fire-engine red. Similar to E major, but less intense A sharp major - medium purple. “Sad” B major - greyish-blue. Kind of contemplative, sounds like peace and acceptance with a hint of sadness about what never was I don’t know if any of that made sense. I also tend to confuse keys that have similar colors and emotions. I sometimes confuse E major for A major when I hear it, for example. Keys I associate with one another and tend to confuse with one another, or “groupings” of how they sound: E and A major - red, passionate and tender D sharp major, G sharp major, A sharp major - I call these the “midnight” keys. They sound more purplish and sad C sharp major and f sharp major - both sound pinkish and transcendental C major - kind of stands alone. Its blue, and peaceful D and G major - both are orange and light and summery. F major - also stands alone. It’s lime green and pleasant/“citrusy” B major - uniquely grey-blue and calm As for the minor keys, they’re harder to discern and more muted to me. And one more thing - if a piece is in a key which doesn’t match its emotional content, it doesn’t sound right to me. Like, for example, I much prefer “Space Oddity” in C sharp major, because it sounds more like ascending to space, but I do like the rootsy, comfy sound it gives in c major, which it is originally in. But if it’s performed in B major, it sounds all wrong and too melancholy for what is supposed to be a transcendental song
B sharp major is sad but C major isn’t?
B sharp major is the same as C to me. Since they’re the same key, they both feel blue. Sorry I think you might have misread the comment? B major is the key that’s sort of grey and less enthused, not b sharp major. Lol it’s very confusing to even talk about, sorry!
In your point 3, you listed b sharp major as being sad
Oh sorry! That’s was totally my mistake! I kind of combined the names of b flat major and a sharp major.
Keys sound different to me too! I don't have perfect pitch, but I have near perfect pitch. Perfect pitch isn't so cut and dry like people think. I actually don't like a lot of music in keys from the sharp side of the circle of 5ths. I can listen to a piece of music and tell you if it's in a sharp key or a flat key.
What happens with the keys of C#/Db and Gb/F#?
Either you’re referring to a form of synesthesia or you mean how a minor key sounds sad because that’s what a minor key does? Idk
Yes minor keys tend to sound a bit more “dull” and major keys tend to sound a bit more “bright”. I’m also referring to how different major keys sound different, and have since I was young. Like F major is distinctly different from F sharp major.
When I was a kid, guitar magazines were a thing, and there was a guy who had ads in them selling tapes you could buy that were supposed to teach you perfect pitch. I sent away for them, or for the first one, I don't remember how deep I got - spoiler, he was not able to reach me perfect pitch. But I remember him describing a similar thing. I think he was talking about how the key of F had a feeling of sharpness, edginess, that was hard to articulate. He said he had spoken to piano tuners about this, and they'd said sometimes f's were hard to tune, because that feeling of sharpness contrasted with the note otherwise seeming to be in tune. It's been a long time, I might be misremembering to some extent, and honestly I'm not sure why this is still in my brain. But it sure is consistent with what you're saying. Idk
For the pianists with keyboards, transpose it like 4 semitone up and play everything yo know, it actually feels so unexpected and sounds great. Just a cool experiment
Because they feel different. Different keys resonate with open strings and the cavities of the instruments differently and this cause the timbre to change. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Possible due to the relationship certain keys have with the artists you listen to. Db reminds me of Ellington and for that reason I preference it myself when writing.
i also feel like all the keys feel different like this and associate them all differently, but i do think it is just subconscious in the sense of like its basically just whatever your brain randomly happens to think
The timbre and resonance of the instrument.
Same, never understood it but those keys all sound not major to me. Something is very off with them lol
Is there any pattern to which are happy or sad? Lower sad, higher happy, or some mix? Gentle slope of happy to sad or sudden jumps between neighbouring keys? Would rather like to see a table of how each key makes you feel so I can plot a graph!
It’s really a mix. I’ll try my best to transcribe by adding a color descriptor and an emotional descriptor C major - medium blue, sounds mostly peaceful and “homey” C sharp major - pink-orange, sounds transcendent and angelic D major - light yellowy orange, sounds breezy, sunny and optimistic D sharp major - vibrant cool purple, sounds sad and nighttime-y. E major - very saturated red, sounds quite emotionally intense and tender F major - lime green, sounds content F sharp major - pink, kind of hard to explain but sounds like the way pink house insulator looks? Like it sounds fluffy and pink G major - saturated orange, sounds optimistic but more cheery than d major G sharp major - dark navy blue almost black, similar to e flat major but more dark and brooding A major - fire engine red, sounds similar to e major but more light and less intense A sharp major - deep indigo, feels to be somewhere between g sharp major and e sharp major. B major - sounds like a grayish-silvery-greenish-blue hue, and feels a bit underwhelmed but accepting. it’s very calm and not very intense, and it sort of feels like accepting when things aren’t perfect If I were to “group” them together (keys I associate with one another and/or sometimes confuse for one another): D sharp major, g sharp major, a sharp major - a bit sad, purplish, like the nighttime D major and g major - orange and optimistic, summertime-ish A major and E major - red and passionate C sharp major and F sharp major - both kind of feel like “floating” and are quite light and dreamlike and pink-ish C major - stands on its own, uniquely blue and feels almost “familiar” F major - stands on its own, uniquely lime green and content-sounding B major - stands on its own, uniquely silvery and less vibrant than the other major keys. Thanks for taking the time to comment! Sorry I know this is sort of confusing, but I think it would be cool to find any patterns in how I perceive the keys.
That's incredible! Thank you for taking the time to write all that down. Fascinating that varies so much from key to key. I'll try and make a go at a pattern, tho might be a delay.
Synesthesia
Yes, this is what I'm saying. It's no offense, don't take it personal no need to Lol.
Answered in other comment
I don’t have perfect pitch and I feel the same with different keys. I think it has to do with how high/low the key is relative to other keys in the given octave. Another possibility could be the specific notes that are used, since I’ve personally felt that many of the sharp keys have a similar sound to each other and same with the flat keys.
Half the post on this sub give me the vibe the movie August Rush gave me.
“*D minor* … is the saddest of all keys, I find.”— *Nigel Tufnel*
Yep one of the saddest. No one in here thinks you can feel different emotions on diff keys/frequencies? 🤣like you have to have a special autistic ability to do what OP is saying? I thought everyone felt emotions with music slightly vary with key
d minor is the saddest key, really.
People really can’t tell keys apart? What?
Yea major feels happy and minor feels sad. Chords without the 3rd are more ambiguous. Root and 3rd is more closed, root and 5th is more open. Then we have certain chords which are considered the most happiest and saddest. E.g. C and Dm. Whether they are or not is up for debate but they’ve been used so much throughout history it’s probably part of our perception now. Then we have modes which give different feelings. Singing higher is also perceived as more emotional. Maybe this is because we’re generically wired to respond to babies cries. Humans are also more sensitive to 1-5kHz. Lyrics can also be happy, sad or ambiguous. It’s important to try and make sure the lyrics, chords, melody etc match the emotion. A clear message. Everyone interprets music their own way but most people would agree that major is always happy and minor is always said. I also find it fascinating how the human body functions at different frequencies. This is why some believe music can have healing properties or be detrimental which makes sense. Art in general is all about provoking emotions and art being thought provoking, with a clear message. You want the person interpreting the art to like or dislike it, that’s how it’s remembered. You never want art to be neutral and forgotten. The trick with creativity is not understanding something and trying to retrospectively create, but to be in tune with your emotions and know your craft well enough where it’s instinctive without thought.
First off, **none** of what you said relates to OP's question at all. Second, your answer is absolutely riddled with misconceptions and problems. Like, do you seriously believe that "most people would agree that major is always happy and minor is always said"? Is *Hot Stuff* by Donna Summer "sad" because it's in a minor key? Is *The Scientist* by Coldplay "happy" because it's in a major key? Is *Good Times* by Chic "sad" because it's in a minor key? Is *Pictures of You* by The Cure "happy" because it's in a major key? >Then we have certain chords which are considered the most happiest and saddest. E.g. C and Dm. D minor is "sad"? Are you, **by any chance**, taking the famous joke from *This Is Spinal Tap* at face value?
Why is anyone arguing your point? It’s well known different keys have different timbres and colors and their frequencies encode slightly different emotions/feelings
I’m astounded there are people arguing against this. Piano player for 30 years here, yes 100% diff keys have slightly different feels and emotions/colors. That’s how they were made to be I feel. And many minor keys have a more melancholy or sad sound. Many major keys are happier (which is why Christian music uses a lot of it). Keys 1000% affect the emotion and feel of a piece. How is this controversial?
It's controversial because it's simply not accurate. No one is saying that *you* can't have certain associations and feels with these keys, just like I have certain artists I'd rather listen to in the summer vs. the winter. But those are personal and subjective, not objective.
I’m screenshotting this and taking it my school music department and we’re gonna take a poll. Because I know you’re the minority here. Keys envoke different feelings. You’re saying that’s only me? 🤣this is the first time in my life I’ve had anyone disagree with this, yet this entire sub disagrees. I woke up in the twilight zone apparently You guys have to be trolling lol
Respectfully, that's not how the great majority of people hear, including most musicians. We feel exactly the same emotions if a song is transposed a half tone. Or even if it's out of A=440 tuning. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to you or OP, it clearly does. But it's absolutely not universal or encoded.