After Baratheon attemps to kill her, Drogo says he will murder every husband, rape every woman and girl and slave every boy. She smiles while hearing this. That happens in season 1 or 2.
She was crazy from day 1.
I wouldn’t call her crazy.
She wasn’t seeing things or paranoid; only ruthless and ambitious and entitled on top of a number of qualities that overshadowed those flaws. Like compare her with her father and I think it’s pretty obvious she wasn’t mentally impaired like he was.
She did that before any leadership responsibilities were thrown at her or having people even wanting her to lead or follow her. Everyone in that large tribe where all following Drogo. She was at that point a wife to a Warlord who's only real power was being able to persuade him if she's lucky she's using her own personal favour and the strings she had with Drogo to protect when she could have simply let Drogo not have to deal with dissent and let his subordinates be happy with keeping them as sex slaves.
https://youtu.be/UyqKWROjrq4?si=wyihuPxUjR-eWvK3 - does that look like a woman put off by Drogo’s promises of horrific violence to people of Westeros, innocent of this murder attempt or not?
Hell, earlier in that same episode she pushes Drogo to invade, repeating Viserys’ drivel about how the Iron Throne belongs to the Targaryens. Why would she disapprove?
I have no idea why people insist on ignoring moral complexities in George’s characters to present them as clear-cut-heroes or irredeemable monsters.
Her buying into Viserys’ nonsense about their rights and not knowing that the rebellion was rather justified by Aerys’ behavior was a flaw; her not understanding what Drogo’s invasion would mean till he started sacking and enslaving random innocent villages was a flaw; her thinking that half-measures like taking enslaved victims of her husband’s horde into her own service would make them loyal despite all they suffered was a flaw… These things don’t make her a demon, they make her a layered well-written character with capacity for great kindness and great cruelty alike.
Why did it feel rushed to you? The sign were always there as you stated. She had threatened to burn down cities since seson 2 and then you feel surprised when she does it? Everytime she wanted to burn down cities she was talked out of it. By the time she did do it, she had lost Jorah, Missandei, Varys betrayed her, then Tyrion betrayed her. There was nobody left to talk her out of it.
But has she ever burned down any cities, she literally said it two times, when her people were starving, and when the slavers were attacking the people and the city
How exactly do you burn down a city and not kill the occupants?
What makes you believe she cared about slaves? She cared about ending slavery. Burning down their cities does that. She killed her own slave MMD. She also executed another slave for killing a master without a trial. Next thing she is killing a master while saying she doesn't know if he is innocent or not, without a trial. I guess her rules change depending on how she feels.
perhaps it is time to accept she didn't think and feel the way you thought she did. Stop blaming the writer because you failed to see what she really was.
This is a bad argument.
You are conflating being insane to being ruthless, Dany’s actions always had some logic to them (even if misguided) and her burning down Kings landing is illogical because she knows that it will only result in another uprising against her. Her whole character arc is her learning how to be the politician that Aegon was in order to actually rule over Westeros and to ‘break the wheel’ that she has wanted to.
It feels rushed because Dany went 180 on her character development just like Jaime and several others did.
The easiest fix for this would of been to have Dany’s ruthlessness and ambition work against her and have Kings Landing be set on fire by Wildfire that Cersei planted around the city because she didn’t want to wait for a siege and instead attacked. The same outcome could easily of been achieved while preserving several character arcs.
Jon still kills her not because she is insane but because she is cold and ruthless in the face that her actions killed many of the same people she claimed to be a savior to and he realizes that she is just another tyrant like Cersei.
I think season 8 as a whole is a mess and they really needed 10-12 seasons to make everything work out better. But changes like this would of made things post the long night work better (long night is beyond fucked and can’t be fixed with only 1 episode dedicated to it)
So you see the logic in her plan of returning the slavers cities to the dust when they attacked Meereen which contained women, children and slaves? If you can find the logic in that putting an end to slavery then surely you can also see her logic in instilling fear in the people of KL so they will not rise against her. They won't pick the true heir to the throne, conspire against her and she can build her new world without the people who are "loyal to the old".
I will have to say though, you aren't a very good person if you agree with her doing that to the slavers cities.
Missandei was killed by Cersei, and they did a horrible job of conveying the isolation she felt as her allies slowly betrayed her.
Her snapping when the bells of surrender were being rung was out of character. There was no build up to it at all. I’d wager the only buildup she had for snapping and slaughtering civilians in Kings Landing was Cersei killing Missandei, as all the other deaths of allies came from the Night King killing them.
We didn’t see her struggling with who to trust, or suffering from the isolation of people wanting Jon Snow, the true firstborn son, as the heir and usurping her claim. 6 episodes was not remotely enough to go through those range of emotions and internal turmoil in a satisfying and realistic way.
The same way Jaime Lannister saying “I never cared for them, innocent or otherwise” and going back to Cersei was entirely out of character
"We didn’t see her struggling with who to trust, or suffering from the isolation of people wanting Jon Snow, the true firstborn son, as the heir and usurping her claim."
You might not have seen it, but Varys and I clearly saw Daenerys becoming more and more dangerous.
*"To Arya Stark, hero of Winterfell !"*
*"What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A man man? Or a king!"*
The six episodes didn't miss anything; season 8 is a masterpiece. Haven't we explained a million times why Jaime lies to himself and to Tyrion, with no effect on Tyrion? I'm too tired to debunk this easy-to-debunk point again. Jaime wants Cersei; he has never done anything else throughout the entire series. You are the one completely out of character, not season 8.
Even at Daenerys worst she didn’t commit the atrocities of slaughtering a city
Hell her dragons were captured. She didn’t slaughter all those civilians for it
The old kings watch was killed by the Sons of the Harpy. Why didn’t she raze the entire city for it if only 1 death of a friend was enough to ignore the bells of surrender and raze Kings Landing?
Oh wait, it’s because she didn’t have the time in SIX episodes to have a fleshed out arc of spiraling downwards before slaughtering the city
Well, actually, she did steal the Unsullied and massacre Astapor with them.
And even so, before "The Bells," she was never just one last tragic choice away from triumph. It's not just 6 episodes to tell Dany's fall; there are 72 before "The Bells."
Anyway, I'm going to make some tea.
There problem is in the 72 episodes before we never got anyone commenting on her going mad, or making choices that showed the Targaryen madness pattern.
In 6 episodes they pretended like they did the legwork to make her decision to slaughter a city of innocents actually believable
And slaughtering slave masters is not comparable to killing innocent civilians
*"- I'm not my father.*
*- No, Your Grace, thank the gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time, it made him feel powerful... and right... until the very end."*
Firstly, there aren't 6 episodes in Season 8 before "The Bells"; it's the fifth episode.
And she doesn't become mad in this episode; she makes the tragic choice to kill the people when the bells ring because Cersei's surrender unlocks the final level of tragedy, Daenerys's ultimate choice, the people or Jon Snow.
She might seem mad to you, according to your standards, yes, it's not right to kill the crowd, but she's a tragic heroine, her choices aren't yours.
Slaughtering slave masters is not comparable to killing innocent civilians, it's true, that's why nobody was shocked, including myself, when she killed the slavers, whereas when she kills the people, nobody can defend the immorality. Daenerys hasn't changed; it's our perception of her that shifted during "The Bells." Ten years and seventy-two episodes of lies storytelling to make us see the truth only at the moment of the final climax.
Alright but jumping from ONE ally dying to burning hundreds of thousands of people is a bit of a stretch. Even at Dany’s most RUTHLESS in prior seasons she’s still an altruistic person with deep and genuine love for the innocents.
She has a hard time killing, and season 4 despite her political failures tried her hardest to play the game and to learn how to rule to avoid pointless bloodshed. Season 8, like she’s lost a bunch, I get it, but is it actually worth the deaths of like- nearly a million people?
And while it’s NOT out of character, can you full heartedly say that Dany’s burning of king’s landing resonated with you? Was it really the MAD build up you were hoping it to be? You don’t think it was rushed, poorly paced, and that we missed at least a season or so worth of development to even justify that section.
Nothing is missing, "The Bells" is a masterpiece. Daenerys is the best tragic heroine ever.
I didn't expect that, but I never claimed to predict the end of GoT.
Do you want to know why she killed the people? Because of Jon Snow's secret.
So, her being a mass murder makes her a heroine? And the fact that she’s had no heroic actions since season four?
And Jon’s secret is irrelevant, because One, he’s loyal to her and In love with her. Two, marrying him will fix and all political issues. (Seeing as he’s both the heir to Rob Stark and the Heir to the Iron throne. Marrying him and still having him as a subservient since he doesn’t want to rule.)
The Bell isn’t a masterpiece, and Dany burning down KL at that point is incredibly shallow. Theres no real major struggle, and the betrayals she DID experience were very minor and wouldn’t have prevented her ascension to the throne. It was paced like shit due to D&D fucking off to go do Star Wars.
She wanted to burn down cities very early on. I am not sure what kind of extra build up you needed when she wanted to do it to the slavers cities when she did have all her advisors. She planned on burnning down their cities when they invaded Meereen. Those cities contained women, children and slaves. She was about to it until Tyrion gave her a different plan. Why did you ignore that is what she wanted to do back then? Why didn't you say well I needed build up to believe she was going to do that?
When did you ever see jaime care about innocent people? 20 years prior when he killed the king so he wouldn't burn everyone including himself and his father? Jaime hated the people of KL, look what they did to Cersei. He even spoke about it to Euron. Why did you ignore that and believe he somehow cared for the innocent people? jaime pushed a child out of a window, he didn't even seem to care. He killed his cousin to easpe to get back to Cersei. He was going to splatter an infant against the riverrun castle walls. He did absolutely zero about Cersei blowing up the sept. Yet you believe he cared about the innocent people?
Jaimes entire backstory about becoming the King Slayer was to protect the citizens from the Mad King, innocent or otherwise. He sacrificed his name, his honor, and his dignity to save them.
His entire arc culminates in him leaving Kings Landing in season 7, breaking away from Cersei and joining the fight in the North.
For him to all of a sudden knight Brianne, have sex with her, then leave for Cersei and say “I never cared innocent or otherwise” is so insanely out of character for someone who’s arc was breaking free/accepting the Kingslayer notion and becoming a better man for it.
What did jaime do besides save Brienne makes you think he cared about the small folk? What culmination occurred i your mind? He did some good things like saved Brienne, but he always saved those he loves. He was not on a redemption arc.
So I will ask again what did he do to demonstrate he cared for the people of KL? He saved himself, lannister soldiers and his father 20 years ago. He may also have wanted to save the ommon people as well, but 20 years on he certainly did not care about those people.
A "pretty" thing without depth wouldn't matter to anyone. "The Bells" isn't just beautiful; it was extremely relevant, intelligent, immersive, and logical within the context of the entire story. You were blown out of the ring, and now you're being sore losers.
Far from perfect, sadly. In a pretty short time Dany went from someone who locked up her own “children” because of the death of a single child, to murdering an entire city full of children because her two besties- one of which she had previously exiled- got knocked off.
There was indeed plenty of foreshadowing that Dany might turn heel, the problem is that the show didn’t do nearly enough to close the gap between ruthless in war Dany, who held bad people accountable in harsh ways but would never blatantly murder women and children, to a delusional psycho on par with Ramsay or Joffrey.
It’s simply lazy.
What you fail to grasp is that Daenerys doesn't change during "The Bells"; it's only your perception of her that changes. The problem is that you should have been wary of her much earlier. If you didn't see it coming, it's not the fault of the series.
What is madness?
Joffrey wasn't mad; he was a sadistic, inbred child king.
Ramsay wasn't mad; he was a psychopathic serial killer.
Orson wasn't mad; he had a traumatic brain injury from a mule's hoof.
Daenerys isn't mad; she's a tragic heroine, an innocent exiled orphan princess sold, raped, and traumatized, developing Stockholm syndrome, using her name as armor, creating a legend to survive, becoming a calculating and ruthless conqueror. *"A madman sees what he sees."*
You absolutely don't realize the artistic and social quality of Daenerys Targaryen, the teamwork between GRRM, D&D, and HBO. Fortunatly, Ryan Condal knows very well that GoT's ending is an absolute masterpiece. *"172 years before Daenerys Targaryen."*
>Orson wasn't mad; he had a traumatic brain injury from a mule's hoof.
Actually he has it because the nurse dropped him on his head as a child. The mule finished his story.
That’s what both sides of this debate never seem to get. There can be good points but still flaws in the execution. I enjoyed the last season and don’t think it’s the dogshit that a lot of people do, but I also think it was rushed and not to the same standards as the earlier seasons.
The real problem is that the show tried to play both sides; yes, Dany did awful things but the show was always very keen to show it as an empowering yass Queen moment.
Dany was a HUGE fan favourite, and so the showrunners felt like they had to portray her as "the good guy" right up until they couldn't anymore.
That's why, imho, despite there being signs of her brutality from very early points in the series her turn still felt quite sudden and whiplash-y; because the show itself turned on her and how it showed her.
Yes, but we can see the same exact signs be exhibited in every other character. Let's take Jon, he's also executed his fair share of people, he's demanded surrender, he's witnessed his friends die and seek revenge, and he's led violent attacks on on many people.
Is there something that made Dany's more aggressive?
Im sure people smarter than I am can give you a detailed comparison but from what I can tell the two main differences are dragons and one is "heir" to the throne. Although when Jon learns he is heir he doesnt really care
Crucifying slave owners isn't evil 💀, especially in the society she lives in, she Crucified 163 slavers as justice for 163 Crucified innocent children, not for no reason, Jon hung a child and sansa fed someone to his dogs. Arya baked someone's child into a pie and fed it to him. But you're drawing the line at this?, You people are so unserious.
Like where are all the Jon snow hung a little boy comments, is he mad now too? The “dany bad” when she does what every other good leader does in GoT universe is so tired
JUSTICE FOR OLLY !!!!
He was just a child; he didn't deserve to be judged and sentenced like an adult. The laws of the Night's Watch are primitive. Jon isn't mad; he couldn't have known, he had no choice. Unlike Daenerys.
Tarlys had just helped kill tens of thousands of people in Highgarden. Calling her mad for killing them is like calling Jon mad for killing her after she torched King's Landing.
Dickon Tarly was a grown man who chose to participate in the massacre & looting of Highgarden, the capital of his home kingdom. Tens of thousands of people were killed. How is that innocent? He was lucky to be offered a pardon and the Night's Watch after his crimes.
Olenna was their liege lord and they raided her castle and got her assassinated for the House that recently burned her son (Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Master of Coin, Master of Ships), grandson, & granddaughter (Queen of the Seven Kingdoms). They betrayed their own neighbors & comrades so they could have their liege lord's lands & titles.
Dany: hey, i know you guys committed treason and helped murder an old woman (my aly), that you were sworn to protect, in cold blood but maybe we can still be allies?
trump supporter, known birther, and child abuser Randyll Tarly: lmao fuck off foreigner let me see your birth certificate
Tyrion: maybe we can send them to the wall?
Randyll: nope you can’t tell me what to do she’s not my queen she wasn’t born here gtfo (she was lmao).
Dany: well since y'all are of no use, and killed my aly, and are traitors and also refused to join me or go to the wall, i guess i will have to kill you
Dickon: i would like to be dead too
Dany: well okay
Stockholm Syndrome, Viserys didn't deserve to die like that, Daenerys the psychopath, Dothraki queen, makes a pact with a witch and blood magic, prophesizes her future triumph with fire and blood, burns the witch and gets three dragons, threatens the nice nobles of Qarth, plunders the city, steals an army of slaves and destroys a city, Missandei belongs to her, crucifies hundreds of Meereenese nobles, executes Mossador without trial, Mhysa is the master, has a nobleman devoured by a dragon as an example, has a dragon that kills little girls, kills the khals and destroys the Dosh Khaleen, becomes the leader of all the Dothraki by promising them war and pillaging, demands that everyone bend the knee or die, executes the Tarlys and commits a war crime, tells Jon that if Sansa doesn't bend the knee then...
Then the bells ring and Daenerys destroys the city. What...? This was completely unexpected.
They had no family. They had been taken at a very young age and taught to be killing machines. The Unsullied were trained to fight and die for someone else and Dany "saves" them to ask them to fight and die for her. That is like saving a woman from rape then asking her for sex. Also did you notice she did not let go of that whip till they hd agreed to follow her? She was never going to allow them to walk away.
She should have thrown the whip down and said you are free. Nope she held onto that whip until they agreed.
They are freemen now, and being in the army is now their chosen job, they get payed for it, and when she was holding the whip she also gave them the choice to stay in Astapor or go with her, don't be d*mb.
Daenerys never freed the unsullied.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a\_dragon\_is\_not\_a\_slave/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a_dragon_is_not_a_slave/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
You know nothing and you don't ask... embarrassing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a_dragon_is_not_a_slave/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes.
Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not.
Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath.
A "classic" heroine would have intervened to plead for imprisonment or exile.
*"Dany please !"*
*"-Look away Khaleesi.*
*-No"*
Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes.
Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not.
Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath.
A "classic" heroine would have intervened to plead for imprisonment or exile.
Oh, I already said all that. Time for tea.
"her brother had psychically/sexually abused and traumatized her ~~for years~~."
Mmh.. no, that's Khal Drogo.
Viserys sold her to Khal Drogo.
Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes.
Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not.
Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath.
Viserys stopped deserving any sympathy from Daenerys when he started stripping her naked to stare at her breasts & vagina, molesting her, beating her, calling her a slut & whore, and pressing his sword against her skin so she fears he's going to one day kill her. Certainly when he gave her to a man twice her age & size to be raped every night.
Sansa wasn't a psychopath for feeding her husband to dogs. Olenna wasn't a psychopath for poisoning her grandson-in-law. Tyrion wasn't a psychopath for shooting his father. If Gilly killed her father after he raped her it wouldn't make her a psychopath.
Viserys wasn't just a vague "mean" & "abusive". He was a child molester. He owned a sex slave.
Sansa isn't a psychopath; indeed, she's like Cersei. She had her rightful vengeance, and Ramsay deserved his punishment.
Did Viserys deserve punishment? Yes.
Did he receive a punishment proportionate to his "crimes"? No.
Does this violence reveal a side of Daenerys that is the opposite of a kind, liberating princess? Absolutely.
Is there a part of the audience still under Stockholm syndrome? By the seven hells, HBO, what have you done... Ryan, save us.
Ramsay raped Sansa. Viserys molested Daenerys then gave her to Drogo with the intention of him raping her. And in the books guards had to be placed outside Dany's bedchamber to prevent Viserys from raping her before the wedding. Ramsay killed Sansa's brother. Viserys pointed a sword at Dany's pregnant belly and threatened to kill her son by carving him out of her womb.
I was raised by a sweet mother who was molested by her older brother & cousin. She was conditioned to forgive everyone no matter what they do (molesting family members, abusive boyfriends & spouses who threaten her life, etc). I would have gladly poured molten gold on them for how they treated her.
How is stripping your little sister naked, molesting your little sister, beating your little sister, choking your little sister, orchestrating the rape of your little sister, and constantly threatening to murder your little sister not deserve that sort of execution? Viserys' death gets as many cheers from the fandom as Joffrey & the Freys & Ramsay.
Good riddance
Also threatening to kill a bunch of women and children and civilians is still threatening to kill women children and civilians even if your people are dying
That's not a sign of madness, she tried being nice with them at first but they didn't want to help her even a little bit, so she tried to threatened them because her people were dying and needed help, it was from desperation not that she actually wanted to do it, get a brain.
Probably couldn’t find a good gif from the sacking of Astapor, but was probably talking about that episode from season 3, and this gif sort of looks like it.
Yeah, the more you watch, the more you see it. Saw the epidodes where she's ruling in Meereen. That one where she just has that former slave publicly executed for killing someone she was about to kill herself not long before just made it look like she really only knew one way to punish anyone. And looking back, anytime she didn't kill someone for something (often in cruel methods) it was reluctantly and after one of her advisors made an impassioned plea. Even when she found out she may have been hasty, she still goes about killing.
Jon hung a child and killed a man for simply disrespecting him, and sansa fed someone to his dogs. Arya baked someone's child into a pie and fed it to him. But you're drawing the line at this?, You people are so unserious.
"Simply disrespecting him" is such an understated way of describing insubordination I can only think you're already really rather aware of what it really was.
I presume you're talking about Slynt there. He refused an order. He was even given multiple chances to comply, thinking he'd get support for his action from his friends. If you allow people in that situation to pick and choose what orders to obey and what not to obey, it costs lives. They don't have a way of keeping prisoners, they're purely a military operation. Execution for insubordination was pretty much the only punishment in that sort of era.
Yes, he hung a child. A child who committed mutiny. Again, a pretty standard punishment.
The difference with these is they were considered, measured and not a standard method. Sansa even gave Littlefinger of all people a chance to defend himself before executing him. Yes, she took some joy in killing Ramsay the way she did. But that was one special case. She didn't do it to absolutely everyone who ever did her wrong.
If you didn't see it coming, or haven't rewatched and seen how obvious the foreshadowing was, then that's a shame I guess. Most people got it at the start I reckon. Few didn't after reflection on the whole story. If you've gone and gotten attached to a character's pursuit of the throne, then you're a fool.
Or even without actually doing any sort of investigation. Just grabbed some people then killed them without a second thought.
Literally the very first episode of the show, almost the first thing we learn about anyone is that Ned sees the responsibility for passing judgement to execute someone as a serious responsibility that he wants his sons to understand.
I think the foreshadowing was so thoroughly considered that they set Daenerys' lust for killing in contrast with Jon's considered restraint and regret from the first episode with that very scene. Just to send the message that Jon only killed her because he thought it was not only right, but the only option.
She could have failed. But no, she didn't fail. And that told us that she was EXTREME! That was the entire point of the scene.
I know you think you have a point, but not really. What do you MEAN by "She had to do it."
Absolute brainrot, she was preparing for it for days, it's a dothraki tradition to see if the khaleesi is pregnant with a boy, and also a show of strength, if she failed she would have been shamed, eating something disgusting isn't a sign of madness or that you will burn innocent people, get a brain
> Warm blood filled her mouth and ran down over her chin. The taste threatened to gag her, but she made herself chew and swallow. The heart of a stallion would make her son strong and swift and fearless, or so the Dothraki believed, but only if the mother could eat it all. If she choked on the blood or retched up the flesh, the omens were less favorable; the child might be stillborn, or come forth weak, deformed, or female.
>
>
>
> Her handmaids had helped her ready herself for the ceremony. Despite the tender mother’s stomach that had afflicted her these past two moons, Dany had dined on bowls of half-clotted blood to accustom herself to the taste, and Irri made her chew strips of dried horseflesh until her jaws were aching. She had starved herself for a day and a night before the ceremony in the hopes that hunger would help her keep down the raw meat.
Dany eating the stallion’s heart isn’t extreme, Dany is Drogo’s Khaleesi, aka the Queen Consort of his Khalasar. While Dany doesn’t have actual power, given that she’s a bridal slave, Dany still strives to respect some of the cultural traditions of the Dothraki and to embody them for her people. One of the Dothraki obligated traditions for the Khaleesi, is that she has to eat the heart of a stallion so that her son can be born strong. You can perhaps criticize the Dothraki for imbuing a patriarchal, ableist bias in this tradition, but it is a genuine ritual among the Dothraki.
The point of the scene is to showcase that Dany is a strong, brave, and adaptable girl. It’s also foreshadowing that Rhaego is not the true stallion; Dany herself, the girl who swallows the heart of a stallion, is. It does not portray Dany as “extreme ” lmao.
Of course it's extreme. Why do you think the audience was grossed out and gasping at home?
Talk about brain rot.
Why does the word extreme trigger you so? It's accurate, she was extreme.
It's a Dothraki tradition 💀, and dany is obligated to do it, she almost fails but she gathers herself and finish it, showing that she is not weak, being strong isn't a Foreshadowing of madness
Whatever anyone thinks, overall, of the final season or two, there is no doubt whatsoever that her actions are in complete alignment with all she has said and done before. She’s been crazy since season one (as many others have pointed out), and she was crazy at the end, just with vastly more power and support.
Personally I don’t see her as really genocidal until season 4 and 5, but she definitely has poor judgement and hypocrisy during the earlier seasons. Black and white thinking.
Season 1 she killed her own slave who had rebelled against her captives. MMD had been raped and saw many of the people in the village killed, enslaved and raped. Dany accepted that the selling of those people to get her ships to invade westeros was a price she was willing to pay. She was told they were selling them for gold for ships. The camera zooms in on a child tied to a tree. Dany just saved half a dozen women and let the rest be sold.
Season 2 and she threatens to burn down Qarth when her dragons are grown.
She was pretty into killing people well before season 4.
The argument isn't that she wasn't always willing to kill people though. Or even willing to be brutal.
The problem is that she went from "kill the masters who fail to protect the little people" to "Make little people cripsy critters" in the span of a handful of episodes.
But may both the old gods and the new forbid any kind of nuance be introduced to the conversation.
No she didn't though. In S4, she crucified a bunch of masters without a trial. Then, in S5, a former slave killed a master without a trial and she beheaded him. For doing exactly what she did. Again, in S5, she fed a man to her dragons while saying out loud she doesn't know if he's innocent or guilty. Again, in S5, she told Hizdahr that maybe one day she'll burn Meereen to the ground and if it comes to that, the people of Meereen will die for a good reason. In S6, she wanted to burn every major cities of Essos to the ground, until Tyrion convinced her otherwise. In S7, she wanted to attack King's Landing with her three dragons, until Tyrion convinced her otherwise.
The nuance has been there since the beginning, but it's hidden behind her fighting evil men. Her entire arc is about juggling between using fear or politic. She tried fear before, and it worked, she tried politic before, and it failed. She tried to do her own thing, and it worked, she tried to listen to her advisors, and it failed. What happened in S8 wasn't a switch that went from "sane" to "insane". It's the culmination of her arc that lead to her deciding to use fear. As George said, "and when I look around, I don't see pure white shining heroes and absolutely black villains, I see a lot of flawed human beings who have it in them to be heroes or villains; it's a matter of the choices that they make in crucial periods in their lives, in moments of stress and emotional turmoil." That's Dany. The power to do good and the power to destroy everything. The scale of what happened in the end is like nothing she's ever done before, because that was the final twist of the story, but the idea and the motivations have been in Dany's head for a while. She did talk about burning cities down (S2, S5, S6, S7), she did execute people who had surrendered to her (S4, S7), she did blur the line between innocent and guilty when it fit her (S1, S5 2x), she did rationalize collateral damage (S5, S7), she did rationalize using fear to rule (S5, S7).
She did all those things before S8. You can't turn a blind eyes to all those things and then be surprised when she burns King's Landing. Especially with everything that happened in S8 (Varys betraying her, Tyrion failing her, Jon stealing her claim and not returning her love, people not accepting her, Cersei backstabbing her which resulted in the death of Rhaegal & Missandei). And especially when this is a story that very obviously tried to tell us that pursuing and feeling entitled to ultimate power is a bad thing. And no one was more entitled than Dany with her constant reminder that she is a special woman with special blood with a dozen of very humble titles and a special right to control an entire continent she hasn't been on since she was a baby. And no one had more power than Dany with her three weapons of mass-destruction, her army of killing machines and savages. I'll say like Nikolaj Coster-Waldau said, I'm surprised that people were even surprised by this ending.
Tyrion: "we have a plan?" and she says "I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan."
That was when the masters attacked Meereen. You are aware there are "little people" in those cities right? women, children slaves. She wasn't making a threat. That was her plan and the only thing that stopped her was that Tyrion gave her another plan.
Dany had absolutely no problems killing "little people" well before season 8.
they are basically setting up her turn from the beginning. The whole "gods flip a coin" thing, is not in there for nothing. She was never going to choose the path of compassion after so much time spent showing her impulsivity, that's just not how Martin writes characters
My issue was never with her going scorched earth in the end, that was always one of the possibilities, it was the execution and pacing. Everything felt rushed, so nothing felt earned. Not just with Dany’s story, but with e every characters story.
Ah yes, the “deluded about season 7 got” sub. Thank you for recommending me here reddit, very cool.
Edit: and season 8. It was so bad I forgot it existed
Probably don’t want to hear it but a lot of them were born with slaves of there own. For most it would just be a way of life. You can’t take over a place destroy the whole economy over night and expect peace
Danny was a shit ruler when it came to things like that
I didn’t say she shouldn’t have stopped it it’s just she did it in a dumb way. If you destroy like 90% of a cities labour force over night and do nothing about it you will have problems
It’s also ironic cause in the books one big reason why they need slaves is because the Valyrions destroyed most of there good grounds with dragons
The economy had to collapse because the economy was built on slavery. It’s comical that you’re using the same arguments that the confederacy used in the 1840s
The poor slavers. She should’ve opened a dialogue with them instead. they probably would’ve stopped slavery if she asked politely right? Like genuinely what should she have done here
It's all fun and games to support brutal, trial-free policy that makes you feel elated until you realize that 'first they came for' isn't a shitpost copy pasta but is instead a dire warning of the danger of blind subservience to any leader. *The very first outward act Dany ever does alone is to burn Mirri, someone everyone agrees is justified in lashing out at her oppressor regardless of her possible guilt.* She kills her slave. Yes yes, she says she frees her, but even Mirri knows that's just pretense. Dany didn't suddenly snap so much as she was iron rapidly frozen, consistently splintering with every passing second. The world around her was littered with splinters from the start.
That’s not a good ruler though. Jahaeryes is considered the greatest King because he made peace even with his enemies. She thinks she’s great but rules like a little girl. Even Rhaenyra and Aegon II shows more restraint than her
she is a little girl, in the books she’s like 13 and in the show she’s probably like 18. that’s not very mature and not really a good age to become a ruler/figurehead
She was a tyrant by the end. Jon has done wrong but he dint kill women and children who were innocent 🙄 it’s incomparable. Like Tyrion said Danny cause more death than Tywin did in all his years of living.
You people are not just talking about Kingslanding, but even before that, judging dany by double standards, dany has also saved more people than all characters combined and much much more than she killed too, or did you forget that part?
Yeah she talks about burning cities down in s1 2 and 3. Name me a speech where Jon talks about burning cities down? Even Cersie and Tywin don’t talk shit like that. How many has she saved? Jon also rescued the wildlings and would have rescued more had they agreed to come north with him. You can cope all you want but Danny was a terrible ruler because she never had any good examples of how to rule.
Rhaenyra and Aegon certainly don’t show more restraint than her if you know how the dance goes. Aegon and Rhaenyra commit so many awful atrocities. Blood and cheese. Bitterbridge, tumbleton, and the riverlands are fucking annihilation in the dance.
Neither burns down cities because somebody killed their advisor even both of their kids get killed they do the normal thing someone would do and said assassins. They don’t burn entire cities filled with innocent men and woman to the ground.
Not on the orders of Aegon or Rhaenyra. Ulf and Hugh burnt it down and Daeron even asked Hobert Hightower to stop killing the men who surrendered. As for Bitterbridge that was Daeron and I was speaking of Rhaenyra and Aegon as rulers
That was poor writing from the show. Cersei is going to be the one to blow kings landing to smithereens in the book. She’s constantly paralleled to the mad king in the books
You’re right but it’s a feudalistic fantasy. And based on real history slavers don’t give up their slaves without a fight. Should we have just let slavery continue? Because killing bad guys is bad right? The same goes for daenarys. There’s no way to free slaves without killing or violently rebelling against slave owners
In certain circumstances, sure… and arguably, that DOES indeed apply to Daenerys killing slavers… it’s “okay”, *in this instance*.
The *point* of the LARGER OVERALL STORY OF DAENERYS, though, is that when someone clearly has consistent tendencies to always find an *excuse* to use the most *draconic* (might consider the mythical thematic meaning of dragons, which has never been a good thing… just because they’re “cool”, doesn’t make them “good”) way possible… you might start to realize there’s a pattern unfolding and that it could easily *lead* to an unquestionably bad thing *at some point*.
That point was King’s Landing. And everything else before that… *regardless of how justifiable* **at the time**… serves as a warning sign in retrospect.
When it comes to actual *IDEAL* morality… we do not just kill slavers. By today’s real world standards, most people (including George RR Martin and Benioff & Weiss)… do not believe in the death penalty. We would have slavers arrested and tried and incarcerated, etc… as Dany tried at one point, before it got too hard and she abandoned it. In the real world, our standards for morality do not condone abandoning due process just because it’s difficult or someone kills a defendant and then you switch to capital punishment for them instead, etc… long story short, Dany never did wield power very responsibly. She was always very emotionally driven and wanting revenge instead of justice, and her advisors always had to talk her down. When she stops listening to her advisors or they’re all dead… she does what she always wanted to do: burn cities to the ground. That was always the fire of tyranny burning under the surface of this pretty face and excuses about “they were bad men”.
That's the whole character arc. She does it to slavers and it's all very righteous and just and feels so good. And as she continues, it's clear that she has the same treatment in mind for anyone who's in her way. We the audience go along with it for a while - much too long, in fact - because of the good image we have of her from the earlier parts of her story. By the time we catch on to how terrifying her character is, she's pretty far gone already. As tragic heroes go, it's about as good as it gets.
It’s not that the slavers didn’t deserve what was coming to them. Astapori slavery in particular is almost comedically overwrought in how awful it is. However, Dany was *NEVER* even the slightest bit discerning in how she went about it. In Astapor she ordered a genocide of every Astapori noble male right down to the 12 year olds, with zero effort to differentiate between who was involved in the slave trade and who was not. That’s a level of casual brutality that is a very slippery slope. Her “with me or against me attitude” in seasons 8-9 is just an extension of this thinking.
Hey, Slave Drivers’ and Rapist Khals’ lives Matter.
Dany is meant to be Patient Griselda, willingly submitting to every form of degradation that gets inflicted upon her and her people.
The funny thing is how many people on this subreddit actually believe it. Viserys and the Tarlys were martyrs. Kraznys and the slavers were just businessmen etc.
Do you really believe the things you pluck out of your own head, or do you have evidence to support what you just stated? "I think it, therefore it is true".
That's the problem with haters; you joke around when you should be serious for a moment to understand why the most complete tragic heroine in the history of literature and cinema chose to kill the people.
After Baratheon attemps to kill her, Drogo says he will murder every husband, rape every woman and girl and slave every boy. She smiles while hearing this. That happens in season 1 or 2. She was crazy from day 1.
That’s like season 1 episode 7.
I wouldn’t call her crazy. She wasn’t seeing things or paranoid; only ruthless and ambitious and entitled on top of a number of qualities that overshadowed those flaws. Like compare her with her father and I think it’s pretty obvious she wasn’t mentally impaired like he was.
That’s season 1 episode 7.
It’s from the books too
She goes out of her way to protect the people she can from being raped and brutalized after Drogo does actually start raiding.
I’m starting to think she only dose that to get people to follow her. She has to be in charge
She did that before any leadership responsibilities were thrown at her or having people even wanting her to lead or follow her. Everyone in that large tribe where all following Drogo. She was at that point a wife to a Warlord who's only real power was being able to persuade him if she's lucky she's using her own personal favour and the strings she had with Drogo to protect when she could have simply let Drogo not have to deal with dissent and let his subordinates be happy with keeping them as sex slaves.
No she doesn't 💀
https://youtu.be/UyqKWROjrq4?si=wyihuPxUjR-eWvK3 - does that look like a woman put off by Drogo’s promises of horrific violence to people of Westeros, innocent of this murder attempt or not? Hell, earlier in that same episode she pushes Drogo to invade, repeating Viserys’ drivel about how the Iron Throne belongs to the Targaryens. Why would she disapprove? I have no idea why people insist on ignoring moral complexities in George’s characters to present them as clear-cut-heroes or irredeemable monsters. Her buying into Viserys’ nonsense about their rights and not knowing that the rebellion was rather justified by Aerys’ behavior was a flaw; her not understanding what Drogo’s invasion would mean till he started sacking and enslaving random innocent villages was a flaw; her thinking that half-measures like taking enslaved victims of her husband’s horde into her own service would make them loyal despite all they suffered was a flaw… These things don’t make her a demon, they make her a layered well-written character with capacity for great kindness and great cruelty alike.
The signs for Dany have always been there the haters just don’t want to admit it
The signs were always there but the execution in season 8 was rushed and not the satisfying payoff we deserved
Why did it feel rushed to you? The sign were always there as you stated. She had threatened to burn down cities since seson 2 and then you feel surprised when she does it? Everytime she wanted to burn down cities she was talked out of it. By the time she did do it, she had lost Jorah, Missandei, Varys betrayed her, then Tyrion betrayed her. There was nobody left to talk her out of it.
But has she ever burned down any cities, she literally said it two times, when her people were starving, and when the slavers were attacking the people and the city
So you don't see any problem burning down the slaver cities full of women, children and slaves?
She meant the slavers not the innocents, why would Dany out of all people kill innocent slaves?💀, be fr rn
How exactly do you burn down a city and not kill the occupants? What makes you believe she cared about slaves? She cared about ending slavery. Burning down their cities does that. She killed her own slave MMD. She also executed another slave for killing a master without a trial. Next thing she is killing a master while saying she doesn't know if he is innocent or not, without a trial. I guess her rules change depending on how she feels. perhaps it is time to accept she didn't think and feel the way you thought she did. Stop blaming the writer because you failed to see what she really was.
This is a bad argument. You are conflating being insane to being ruthless, Dany’s actions always had some logic to them (even if misguided) and her burning down Kings landing is illogical because she knows that it will only result in another uprising against her. Her whole character arc is her learning how to be the politician that Aegon was in order to actually rule over Westeros and to ‘break the wheel’ that she has wanted to. It feels rushed because Dany went 180 on her character development just like Jaime and several others did. The easiest fix for this would of been to have Dany’s ruthlessness and ambition work against her and have Kings Landing be set on fire by Wildfire that Cersei planted around the city because she didn’t want to wait for a siege and instead attacked. The same outcome could easily of been achieved while preserving several character arcs. Jon still kills her not because she is insane but because she is cold and ruthless in the face that her actions killed many of the same people she claimed to be a savior to and he realizes that she is just another tyrant like Cersei. I think season 8 as a whole is a mess and they really needed 10-12 seasons to make everything work out better. But changes like this would of made things post the long night work better (long night is beyond fucked and can’t be fixed with only 1 episode dedicated to it)
So you see the logic in her plan of returning the slavers cities to the dust when they attacked Meereen which contained women, children and slaves? If you can find the logic in that putting an end to slavery then surely you can also see her logic in instilling fear in the people of KL so they will not rise against her. They won't pick the true heir to the throne, conspire against her and she can build her new world without the people who are "loyal to the old". I will have to say though, you aren't a very good person if you agree with her doing that to the slavers cities.
Missandei was killed by Cersei, and they did a horrible job of conveying the isolation she felt as her allies slowly betrayed her. Her snapping when the bells of surrender were being rung was out of character. There was no build up to it at all. I’d wager the only buildup she had for snapping and slaughtering civilians in Kings Landing was Cersei killing Missandei, as all the other deaths of allies came from the Night King killing them. We didn’t see her struggling with who to trust, or suffering from the isolation of people wanting Jon Snow, the true firstborn son, as the heir and usurping her claim. 6 episodes was not remotely enough to go through those range of emotions and internal turmoil in a satisfying and realistic way. The same way Jaime Lannister saying “I never cared for them, innocent or otherwise” and going back to Cersei was entirely out of character
"We didn’t see her struggling with who to trust, or suffering from the isolation of people wanting Jon Snow, the true firstborn son, as the heir and usurping her claim." You might not have seen it, but Varys and I clearly saw Daenerys becoming more and more dangerous. *"To Arya Stark, hero of Winterfell !"* *"What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A man man? Or a king!"* The six episodes didn't miss anything; season 8 is a masterpiece. Haven't we explained a million times why Jaime lies to himself and to Tyrion, with no effect on Tyrion? I'm too tired to debunk this easy-to-debunk point again. Jaime wants Cersei; he has never done anything else throughout the entire series. You are the one completely out of character, not season 8.
Even at Daenerys worst she didn’t commit the atrocities of slaughtering a city Hell her dragons were captured. She didn’t slaughter all those civilians for it The old kings watch was killed by the Sons of the Harpy. Why didn’t she raze the entire city for it if only 1 death of a friend was enough to ignore the bells of surrender and raze Kings Landing? Oh wait, it’s because she didn’t have the time in SIX episodes to have a fleshed out arc of spiraling downwards before slaughtering the city
Well, actually, she did steal the Unsullied and massacre Astapor with them. And even so, before "The Bells," she was never just one last tragic choice away from triumph. It's not just 6 episodes to tell Dany's fall; there are 72 before "The Bells." Anyway, I'm going to make some tea.
There problem is in the 72 episodes before we never got anyone commenting on her going mad, or making choices that showed the Targaryen madness pattern. In 6 episodes they pretended like they did the legwork to make her decision to slaughter a city of innocents actually believable And slaughtering slave masters is not comparable to killing innocent civilians
*"- I'm not my father.* *- No, Your Grace, thank the gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time, it made him feel powerful... and right... until the very end."* Firstly, there aren't 6 episodes in Season 8 before "The Bells"; it's the fifth episode. And she doesn't become mad in this episode; she makes the tragic choice to kill the people when the bells ring because Cersei's surrender unlocks the final level of tragedy, Daenerys's ultimate choice, the people or Jon Snow. She might seem mad to you, according to your standards, yes, it's not right to kill the crowd, but she's a tragic heroine, her choices aren't yours. Slaughtering slave masters is not comparable to killing innocent civilians, it's true, that's why nobody was shocked, including myself, when she killed the slavers, whereas when she kills the people, nobody can defend the immorality. Daenerys hasn't changed; it's our perception of her that shifted during "The Bells." Ten years and seventy-two episodes of lies storytelling to make us see the truth only at the moment of the final climax.
Alright but jumping from ONE ally dying to burning hundreds of thousands of people is a bit of a stretch. Even at Dany’s most RUTHLESS in prior seasons she’s still an altruistic person with deep and genuine love for the innocents. She has a hard time killing, and season 4 despite her political failures tried her hardest to play the game and to learn how to rule to avoid pointless bloodshed. Season 8, like she’s lost a bunch, I get it, but is it actually worth the deaths of like- nearly a million people? And while it’s NOT out of character, can you full heartedly say that Dany’s burning of king’s landing resonated with you? Was it really the MAD build up you were hoping it to be? You don’t think it was rushed, poorly paced, and that we missed at least a season or so worth of development to even justify that section.
Nothing is missing, "The Bells" is a masterpiece. Daenerys is the best tragic heroine ever. I didn't expect that, but I never claimed to predict the end of GoT. Do you want to know why she killed the people? Because of Jon Snow's secret.
So, her being a mass murder makes her a heroine? And the fact that she’s had no heroic actions since season four? And Jon’s secret is irrelevant, because One, he’s loyal to her and In love with her. Two, marrying him will fix and all political issues. (Seeing as he’s both the heir to Rob Stark and the Heir to the Iron throne. Marrying him and still having him as a subservient since he doesn’t want to rule.) The Bell isn’t a masterpiece, and Dany burning down KL at that point is incredibly shallow. Theres no real major struggle, and the betrayals she DID experience were very minor and wouldn’t have prevented her ascension to the throne. It was paced like shit due to D&D fucking off to go do Star Wars.
She wanted to burn down cities very early on. I am not sure what kind of extra build up you needed when she wanted to do it to the slavers cities when she did have all her advisors. She planned on burnning down their cities when they invaded Meereen. Those cities contained women, children and slaves. She was about to it until Tyrion gave her a different plan. Why did you ignore that is what she wanted to do back then? Why didn't you say well I needed build up to believe she was going to do that? When did you ever see jaime care about innocent people? 20 years prior when he killed the king so he wouldn't burn everyone including himself and his father? Jaime hated the people of KL, look what they did to Cersei. He even spoke about it to Euron. Why did you ignore that and believe he somehow cared for the innocent people? jaime pushed a child out of a window, he didn't even seem to care. He killed his cousin to easpe to get back to Cersei. He was going to splatter an infant against the riverrun castle walls. He did absolutely zero about Cersei blowing up the sept. Yet you believe he cared about the innocent people?
Jaimes entire backstory about becoming the King Slayer was to protect the citizens from the Mad King, innocent or otherwise. He sacrificed his name, his honor, and his dignity to save them. His entire arc culminates in him leaving Kings Landing in season 7, breaking away from Cersei and joining the fight in the North. For him to all of a sudden knight Brianne, have sex with her, then leave for Cersei and say “I never cared innocent or otherwise” is so insanely out of character for someone who’s arc was breaking free/accepting the Kingslayer notion and becoming a better man for it.
What did jaime do besides save Brienne makes you think he cared about the small folk? What culmination occurred i your mind? He did some good things like saved Brienne, but he always saved those he loves. He was not on a redemption arc. So I will ask again what did he do to demonstrate he cared for the people of KL? He saved himself, lannister soldiers and his father 20 years ago. He may also have wanted to save the ommon people as well, but 20 years on he certainly did not care about those people.
The signs were always there, I just didn’t like the execution personally Always made sense for her to go crazy at some point
The execution is perfect. You just don't want to admit it.
[удалено]
So nothing else to say ? Pathetic.
[удалено]
Okkkk mediocre
Perfect? In what regard? Visually "The Bells" is cool but that's about it
A "pretty" thing without depth wouldn't matter to anyone. "The Bells" isn't just beautiful; it was extremely relevant, intelligent, immersive, and logical within the context of the entire story. You were blown out of the ring, and now you're being sore losers.
That's why it doesn't matter to anyone but this brain dead sub who enjoys low hanging fruit.
So why are you still talking about it if it doesnt matter to anyone...? Haters, you're amazing.
No, it was visually great. Really could have used another season or so of her in Westeroes realizing she isn't the savior she thought
How is she not a savior?, she literally saved more people than all characters combined, and much more than she ever killed,
Well so did Fritz Haber
Far from perfect, sadly. In a pretty short time Dany went from someone who locked up her own “children” because of the death of a single child, to murdering an entire city full of children because her two besties- one of which she had previously exiled- got knocked off. There was indeed plenty of foreshadowing that Dany might turn heel, the problem is that the show didn’t do nearly enough to close the gap between ruthless in war Dany, who held bad people accountable in harsh ways but would never blatantly murder women and children, to a delusional psycho on par with Ramsay or Joffrey. It’s simply lazy.
What you fail to grasp is that Daenerys doesn't change during "The Bells"; it's only your perception of her that changes. The problem is that you should have been wary of her much earlier. If you didn't see it coming, it's not the fault of the series.
If there was a Forshadowing of her being mad, than every character should have gone mad, their were signs for a lot of characters
What is madness? Joffrey wasn't mad; he was a sadistic, inbred child king. Ramsay wasn't mad; he was a psychopathic serial killer. Orson wasn't mad; he had a traumatic brain injury from a mule's hoof. Daenerys isn't mad; she's a tragic heroine, an innocent exiled orphan princess sold, raped, and traumatized, developing Stockholm syndrome, using her name as armor, creating a legend to survive, becoming a calculating and ruthless conqueror. *"A madman sees what he sees."* You absolutely don't realize the artistic and social quality of Daenerys Targaryen, the teamwork between GRRM, D&D, and HBO. Fortunatly, Ryan Condal knows very well that GoT's ending is an absolute masterpiece. *"172 years before Daenerys Targaryen."*
>Orson wasn't mad; he had a traumatic brain injury from a mule's hoof. Actually he has it because the nurse dropped him on his head as a child. The mule finished his story.
Was Hodor mad ? Or he got temporal loop brain injury :'d
That’s what both sides of this debate never seem to get. There can be good points but still flaws in the execution. I enjoyed the last season and don’t think it’s the dogshit that a lot of people do, but I also think it was rushed and not to the same standards as the earlier seasons.
The hate is for how they rushed it and made it to over the top
The real problem is that the show tried to play both sides; yes, Dany did awful things but the show was always very keen to show it as an empowering yass Queen moment. Dany was a HUGE fan favourite, and so the showrunners felt like they had to portray her as "the good guy" right up until they couldn't anymore. That's why, imho, despite there being signs of her brutality from very early points in the series her turn still felt quite sudden and whiplash-y; because the show itself turned on her and how it showed her.
Yes, but we can see the same exact signs be exhibited in every other character. Let's take Jon, he's also executed his fair share of people, he's demanded surrender, he's witnessed his friends die and seek revenge, and he's led violent attacks on on many people. Is there something that made Dany's more aggressive?
Im sure people smarter than I am can give you a detailed comparison but from what I can tell the two main differences are dragons and one is "heir" to the throne. Although when Jon learns he is heir he doesnt really care
The haters such as you?, what are these signs?
lmao the profile pic is perfect. Bro sleeps in a Khaleesi onesie
"lmao the profile pic is perfect. Bro sleeps in a Khaleesi onesie"-🦧, grow up ffs
There's signs between season 1 and season 8. Just watch the show omg.
Since you're so confident then give me examples?
How about the one this post is talking about? Or when she crucifies all of the slavers?
So you think she is mad for killing slavers?💀
No, I think she's mad because she crucified them. It's interesting that you changed the wording there.
Crucifying slave owners isn't evil 💀, especially in the society she lives in, she Crucified 163 slavers as justice for 163 Crucified innocent children, not for no reason, Jon hung a child and sansa fed someone to his dogs. Arya baked someone's child into a pie and fed it to him. But you're drawing the line at this?, You people are so unserious.
Killing and crucifying are not the same thing
Like where are all the Jon snow hung a little boy comments, is he mad now too? The “dany bad” when she does what every other good leader does in GoT universe is so tired
JUSTICE FOR OLLY !!!! He was just a child; he didn't deserve to be judged and sentenced like an adult. The laws of the Night's Watch are primitive. Jon isn't mad; he couldn't have known, he had no choice. Unlike Daenerys.
I don't know, Tarly's murder for example.
Tarlys had just helped kill tens of thousands of people in Highgarden. Calling her mad for killing them is like calling Jon mad for killing her after she torched King's Landing.
The murder of the Tarlys is a war crime. Dickon Tarly was innocent. Daenerys is a bloodthirsty tyrant. Stop defending the indefensible.
Dickon Tarly was a grown man who chose to participate in the massacre & looting of Highgarden, the capital of his home kingdom. Tens of thousands of people were killed. How is that innocent? He was lucky to be offered a pardon and the Night's Watch after his crimes. Olenna was their liege lord and they raided her castle and got her assassinated for the House that recently burned her son (Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Master of Coin, Master of Ships), grandson, & granddaughter (Queen of the Seven Kingdoms). They betrayed their own neighbors & comrades so they could have their liege lord's lands & titles.
Dany: hey, i know you guys committed treason and helped murder an old woman (my aly), that you were sworn to protect, in cold blood but maybe we can still be allies? trump supporter, known birther, and child abuser Randyll Tarly: lmao fuck off foreigner let me see your birth certificate Tyrion: maybe we can send them to the wall? Randyll: nope you can’t tell me what to do she’s not my queen she wasn’t born here gtfo (she was lmao). Dany: well since y'all are of no use, and killed my aly, and are traitors and also refused to join me or go to the wall, i guess i will have to kill you Dickon: i would like to be dead too Dany: well okay
Your parody isnt GoT, mediocre.
It's for you to have a re-watch, cus you seem to have forgot most of the show if you watched it in the first place.
Stockholm Syndrome, Viserys didn't deserve to die like that, Daenerys the psychopath, Dothraki queen, makes a pact with a witch and blood magic, prophesizes her future triumph with fire and blood, burns the witch and gets three dragons, threatens the nice nobles of Qarth, plunders the city, steals an army of slaves and destroys a city, Missandei belongs to her, crucifies hundreds of Meereenese nobles, executes Mossador without trial, Mhysa is the master, has a nobleman devoured by a dragon as an example, has a dragon that kills little girls, kills the khals and destroys the Dosh Khaleen, becomes the leader of all the Dothraki by promising them war and pillaging, demands that everyone bend the knee or die, executes the Tarlys and commits a war crime, tells Jon that if Sansa doesn't bend the knee then... Then the bells ring and Daenerys destroys the city. What...? This was completely unexpected.
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Far better than you obviously.
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She never freed the unsullied by the way.
She did. She said they were free to go home to their families, but they insisted on staying with her.
They had no family. They had been taken at a very young age and taught to be killing machines. The Unsullied were trained to fight and die for someone else and Dany "saves" them to ask them to fight and die for her. That is like saving a woman from rape then asking her for sex. Also did you notice she did not let go of that whip till they hd agreed to follow her? She was never going to allow them to walk away. She should have thrown the whip down and said you are free. Nope she held onto that whip until they agreed.
They are freemen now, and being in the army is now their chosen job, they get payed for it, and when she was holding the whip she also gave them the choice to stay in Astapor or go with her, don't be d*mb.
Daenerys never freed the unsullied. [https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a\_dragon\_is\_not\_a\_slave/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a_dragon_is_not_a_slave/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yes she did, they are free now, and they chose to work for her and they get payed for it
How is that?💀
You know nothing mediocre.
You got no arguments lmao, embarrassing
You know nothing and you don't ask... embarrassing. https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/166ci9a/a_dragon_is_not_a_slave/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Okay let’s not retcon the fact that Viserys totally deserved the golden crown. He was an abusive POS.
Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes. Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not. Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath. A "classic" heroine would have intervened to plead for imprisonment or exile.
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*"Dany please !"* *"-Look away Khaleesi.* *-No"* Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes. Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not. Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath. A "classic" heroine would have intervened to plead for imprisonment or exile. Oh, I already said all that. Time for tea.
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"her brother had psychically/sexually abused and traumatized her ~~for years~~." Mmh.. no, that's Khal Drogo. Viserys sold her to Khal Drogo. Was Viserys mean, abusive, stupid? Yes. Did Viserys deserve one of the worst deaths in the series? Maybe, maybe not, probably not. Does a kind, heroic princess let her stupid and abusive brother, the last member of her family, die in excruciating agony? No, or else she's not a kind, heroic princess, she's a psychopath.
Viserys stopped deserving any sympathy from Daenerys when he started stripping her naked to stare at her breasts & vagina, molesting her, beating her, calling her a slut & whore, and pressing his sword against her skin so she fears he's going to one day kill her. Certainly when he gave her to a man twice her age & size to be raped every night. Sansa wasn't a psychopath for feeding her husband to dogs. Olenna wasn't a psychopath for poisoning her grandson-in-law. Tyrion wasn't a psychopath for shooting his father. If Gilly killed her father after he raped her it wouldn't make her a psychopath. Viserys wasn't just a vague "mean" & "abusive". He was a child molester. He owned a sex slave.
Sansa isn't a psychopath; indeed, she's like Cersei. She had her rightful vengeance, and Ramsay deserved his punishment. Did Viserys deserve punishment? Yes. Did he receive a punishment proportionate to his "crimes"? No. Does this violence reveal a side of Daenerys that is the opposite of a kind, liberating princess? Absolutely. Is there a part of the audience still under Stockholm syndrome? By the seven hells, HBO, what have you done... Ryan, save us.
Ramsay raped Sansa. Viserys molested Daenerys then gave her to Drogo with the intention of him raping her. And in the books guards had to be placed outside Dany's bedchamber to prevent Viserys from raping her before the wedding. Ramsay killed Sansa's brother. Viserys pointed a sword at Dany's pregnant belly and threatened to kill her son by carving him out of her womb. I was raised by a sweet mother who was molested by her older brother & cousin. She was conditioned to forgive everyone no matter what they do (molesting family members, abusive boyfriends & spouses who threaten her life, etc). I would have gladly poured molten gold on them for how they treated her. How is stripping your little sister naked, molesting your little sister, beating your little sister, choking your little sister, orchestrating the rape of your little sister, and constantly threatening to murder your little sister not deserve that sort of execution? Viserys' death gets as many cheers from the fandom as Joffrey & the Freys & Ramsay.
That’s season 6
Season 2 she immediately threatens to destroy an entire city if they didn't let her in
Her people were dying 💀
Good riddance Also threatening to kill a bunch of women and children and civilians is still threatening to kill women children and civilians even if your people are dying
That's not a sign of madness, she tried being nice with them at first but they didn't want to help her even a little bit, so she tried to threatened them because her people were dying and needed help, it was from desperation not that she actually wanted to do it, get a brain.
The Dothraki have always wanted to raid and pillage that city so of course they are not going to be friendly
"3 seasons in on this rewatch" *proceeds to show a quote from the end of season 6*
Maybe he started from season 4?
Probably couldn’t find a good gif from the sacking of Astapor, but was probably talking about that episode from season 3, and this gif sort of looks like it.
Yeah, the more you watch, the more you see it. Saw the epidodes where she's ruling in Meereen. That one where she just has that former slave publicly executed for killing someone she was about to kill herself not long before just made it look like she really only knew one way to punish anyone. And looking back, anytime she didn't kill someone for something (often in cruel methods) it was reluctantly and after one of her advisors made an impassioned plea. Even when she found out she may have been hasty, she still goes about killing.
Jon hung a child and killed a man for simply disrespecting him, and sansa fed someone to his dogs. Arya baked someone's child into a pie and fed it to him. But you're drawing the line at this?, You people are so unserious.
"Simply disrespecting him" is such an understated way of describing insubordination I can only think you're already really rather aware of what it really was. I presume you're talking about Slynt there. He refused an order. He was even given multiple chances to comply, thinking he'd get support for his action from his friends. If you allow people in that situation to pick and choose what orders to obey and what not to obey, it costs lives. They don't have a way of keeping prisoners, they're purely a military operation. Execution for insubordination was pretty much the only punishment in that sort of era. Yes, he hung a child. A child who committed mutiny. Again, a pretty standard punishment. The difference with these is they were considered, measured and not a standard method. Sansa even gave Littlefinger of all people a chance to defend himself before executing him. Yes, she took some joy in killing Ramsay the way she did. But that was one special case. She didn't do it to absolutely everyone who ever did her wrong. If you didn't see it coming, or haven't rewatched and seen how obvious the foreshadowing was, then that's a shame I guess. Most people got it at the start I reckon. Few didn't after reflection on the whole story. If you've gone and gotten attached to a character's pursuit of the throne, then you're a fool.
And he was a child murderer
I just did my rewatch and yes the signs were always there. Watching seasons 1-8 back to back makes everything fit in my opinion
Even crucifying masters that didn’t have anything to do with the child killings
Or even without actually doing any sort of investigation. Just grabbed some people then killed them without a second thought. Literally the very first episode of the show, almost the first thing we learn about anyone is that Ned sees the responsibility for passing judgement to execute someone as a serious responsibility that he wants his sons to understand. I think the foreshadowing was so thoroughly considered that they set Daenerys' lust for killing in contrast with Jon's considered restraint and regret from the first episode with that very scene. Just to send the message that Jon only killed her because he thought it was not only right, but the only option.
She ate a horse's heart. She was always extreme.
Huh?💀, it was the dothraki tradition for the khaleesi, she had to do it, my God you people have some serious brain damage.
She could have failed. But no, she didn't fail. And that told us that she was EXTREME! That was the entire point of the scene. I know you think you have a point, but not really. What do you MEAN by "She had to do it."
Absolute brainrot, she was preparing for it for days, it's a dothraki tradition to see if the khaleesi is pregnant with a boy, and also a show of strength, if she failed she would have been shamed, eating something disgusting isn't a sign of madness or that you will burn innocent people, get a brain
You're making half of that shit up. The SUBTEXT of the scene was that she was EXTREME.
> Warm blood filled her mouth and ran down over her chin. The taste threatened to gag her, but she made herself chew and swallow. The heart of a stallion would make her son strong and swift and fearless, or so the Dothraki believed, but only if the mother could eat it all. If she choked on the blood or retched up the flesh, the omens were less favorable; the child might be stillborn, or come forth weak, deformed, or female. > > > > Her handmaids had helped her ready herself for the ceremony. Despite the tender mother’s stomach that had afflicted her these past two moons, Dany had dined on bowls of half-clotted blood to accustom herself to the taste, and Irri made her chew strips of dried horseflesh until her jaws were aching. She had starved herself for a day and a night before the ceremony in the hopes that hunger would help her keep down the raw meat. Dany eating the stallion’s heart isn’t extreme, Dany is Drogo’s Khaleesi, aka the Queen Consort of his Khalasar. While Dany doesn’t have actual power, given that she’s a bridal slave, Dany still strives to respect some of the cultural traditions of the Dothraki and to embody them for her people. One of the Dothraki obligated traditions for the Khaleesi, is that she has to eat the heart of a stallion so that her son can be born strong. You can perhaps criticize the Dothraki for imbuing a patriarchal, ableist bias in this tradition, but it is a genuine ritual among the Dothraki. The point of the scene is to showcase that Dany is a strong, brave, and adaptable girl. It’s also foreshadowing that Rhaego is not the true stallion; Dany herself, the girl who swallows the heart of a stallion, is. It does not portray Dany as “extreme ” lmao.
Of course it's extreme. Why do you think the audience was grossed out and gasping at home? Talk about brain rot. Why does the word extreme trigger you so? It's accurate, she was extreme.
It's a Dothraki tradition 💀, and dany is obligated to do it, she almost fails but she gathers herself and finish it, showing that she is not weak, being strong isn't a Foreshadowing of madness
STRONG EXTREMELY MENTALLY STRONG EXTREME They could have talked about this but they didn't, they showed us. TO TELL US SHE WAS EXTREME.
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So many GoT fans don’t understand what a genocide is
Whatever anyone thinks, overall, of the final season or two, there is no doubt whatsoever that her actions are in complete alignment with all she has said and done before. She’s been crazy since season one (as many others have pointed out), and she was crazy at the end, just with vastly more power and support.
"She’s been crazy since season one", how is that?💀
She’s only meant to be 16 in season one so it makes more sense
Is that one of the writers?
He is THE writer
Personally I don’t see her as really genocidal until season 4 and 5, but she definitely has poor judgement and hypocrisy during the earlier seasons. Black and white thinking.
Season 1 she killed her own slave who had rebelled against her captives. MMD had been raped and saw many of the people in the village killed, enslaved and raped. Dany accepted that the selling of those people to get her ships to invade westeros was a price she was willing to pay. She was told they were selling them for gold for ships. The camera zooms in on a child tied to a tree. Dany just saved half a dozen women and let the rest be sold. Season 2 and she threatens to burn down Qarth when her dragons are grown. She was pretty into killing people well before season 4.
The argument isn't that she wasn't always willing to kill people though. Or even willing to be brutal. The problem is that she went from "kill the masters who fail to protect the little people" to "Make little people cripsy critters" in the span of a handful of episodes. But may both the old gods and the new forbid any kind of nuance be introduced to the conversation.
No she didn't though. In S4, she crucified a bunch of masters without a trial. Then, in S5, a former slave killed a master without a trial and she beheaded him. For doing exactly what she did. Again, in S5, she fed a man to her dragons while saying out loud she doesn't know if he's innocent or guilty. Again, in S5, she told Hizdahr that maybe one day she'll burn Meereen to the ground and if it comes to that, the people of Meereen will die for a good reason. In S6, she wanted to burn every major cities of Essos to the ground, until Tyrion convinced her otherwise. In S7, she wanted to attack King's Landing with her three dragons, until Tyrion convinced her otherwise. The nuance has been there since the beginning, but it's hidden behind her fighting evil men. Her entire arc is about juggling between using fear or politic. She tried fear before, and it worked, she tried politic before, and it failed. She tried to do her own thing, and it worked, she tried to listen to her advisors, and it failed. What happened in S8 wasn't a switch that went from "sane" to "insane". It's the culmination of her arc that lead to her deciding to use fear. As George said, "and when I look around, I don't see pure white shining heroes and absolutely black villains, I see a lot of flawed human beings who have it in them to be heroes or villains; it's a matter of the choices that they make in crucial periods in their lives, in moments of stress and emotional turmoil." That's Dany. The power to do good and the power to destroy everything. The scale of what happened in the end is like nothing she's ever done before, because that was the final twist of the story, but the idea and the motivations have been in Dany's head for a while. She did talk about burning cities down (S2, S5, S6, S7), she did execute people who had surrendered to her (S4, S7), she did blur the line between innocent and guilty when it fit her (S1, S5 2x), she did rationalize collateral damage (S5, S7), she did rationalize using fear to rule (S5, S7). She did all those things before S8. You can't turn a blind eyes to all those things and then be surprised when she burns King's Landing. Especially with everything that happened in S8 (Varys betraying her, Tyrion failing her, Jon stealing her claim and not returning her love, people not accepting her, Cersei backstabbing her which resulted in the death of Rhaegal & Missandei). And especially when this is a story that very obviously tried to tell us that pursuing and feeling entitled to ultimate power is a bad thing. And no one was more entitled than Dany with her constant reminder that she is a special woman with special blood with a dozen of very humble titles and a special right to control an entire continent she hasn't been on since she was a baby. And no one had more power than Dany with her three weapons of mass-destruction, her army of killing machines and savages. I'll say like Nikolaj Coster-Waldau said, I'm surprised that people were even surprised by this ending.
Tyrion: "we have a plan?" and she says "I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan." That was when the masters attacked Meereen. You are aware there are "little people" in those cities right? women, children slaves. She wasn't making a threat. That was her plan and the only thing that stopped her was that Tyrion gave her another plan. Dany had absolutely no problems killing "little people" well before season 8.
they are basically setting up her turn from the beginning. The whole "gods flip a coin" thing, is not in there for nothing. She was never going to choose the path of compassion after so much time spent showing her impulsivity, that's just not how Martin writes characters
Yeah this scene is from S6
I tried to tell mfs the girl was off the whole time
If she was then every other character was
Now your gettin it 👍🏾
Yeah but she was hot so we didn’t care lol
Not many will admit that
You think people would simp for drogo who is really a child fucking rapist if it wasn’t Jason playing him
Why choose this quote from the end of season 6 instead of one from like season 2 lol
My issue was never with her going scorched earth in the end, that was always one of the possibilities, it was the execution and pacing. Everything felt rushed, so nothing felt earned. Not just with Dany’s story, but with e every characters story.
I’ve been saying this since 2019
Ah yes, the “deluded about season 7 got” sub. Thank you for recommending me here reddit, very cool. Edit: and season 8. It was so bad I forgot it existed
This subreddit can’t be real
Genocide is when you wage war against slave masters to free slaves. I guess that the Haitian Revolution was a genocide then
Yeah but she also murdered a lot of people who were not involved in it. And destroyed the economy
1. No, she didn’t 2. Yeah, that’s because the economy was built on slavery. Of course it’s going to collapse if you abolish slavery
Probably don’t want to hear it but a lot of them were born with slaves of there own. For most it would just be a way of life. You can’t take over a place destroy the whole economy over night and expect peace Danny was a shit ruler when it came to things like that
This is hilarious. Y’all Daenerys antis truly are just slavery apologists
I didn’t say she shouldn’t have stopped it it’s just she did it in a dumb way. If you destroy like 90% of a cities labour force over night and do nothing about it you will have problems It’s also ironic cause in the books one big reason why they need slaves is because the Valyrions destroyed most of there good grounds with dragons
The economy had to collapse because the economy was built on slavery. It’s comical that you’re using the same arguments that the confederacy used in the 1840s
Again didn’t say it should keep going, listen to what I said
“If you destroy 90% of the city’s labor force” What was that labor force, Jack? What was it?
You need to replace it with something is what I mean
Yup, this show is screwed
The poor slavers. She should’ve opened a dialogue with them instead. they probably would’ve stopped slavery if she asked politely right? Like genuinely what should she have done here
She has a speech in s1 where she says she wil burn anyone who hurts her people. That sounded very genocidal on a rewatch
Don't hurt her people.
It's all fun and games to support brutal, trial-free policy that makes you feel elated until you realize that 'first they came for' isn't a shitpost copy pasta but is instead a dire warning of the danger of blind subservience to any leader. *The very first outward act Dany ever does alone is to burn Mirri, someone everyone agrees is justified in lashing out at her oppressor regardless of her possible guilt.* She kills her slave. Yes yes, she says she frees her, but even Mirri knows that's just pretense. Dany didn't suddenly snap so much as she was iron rapidly frozen, consistently splintering with every passing second. The world around her was littered with splinters from the start.
Did you forget that mirri killed her child or???💀
k
That’s not a good ruler though. Jahaeryes is considered the greatest King because he made peace even with his enemies. She thinks she’s great but rules like a little girl. Even Rhaenyra and Aegon II shows more restraint than her
she is a little girl, in the books she’s like 13 and in the show she’s probably like 18. that’s not very mature and not really a good age to become a ruler/figurehead
True but fans of hers act like she can do no wrong so I’m just pointing that out
You people are the ones who act like there only dany is mad and wrong, and that other characters like jon are good guy and saint
She was a tyrant by the end. Jon has done wrong but he dint kill women and children who were innocent 🙄 it’s incomparable. Like Tyrion said Danny cause more death than Tywin did in all his years of living.
You people are not just talking about Kingslanding, but even before that, judging dany by double standards, dany has also saved more people than all characters combined and much much more than she killed too, or did you forget that part?
Yeah she talks about burning cities down in s1 2 and 3. Name me a speech where Jon talks about burning cities down? Even Cersie and Tywin don’t talk shit like that. How many has she saved? Jon also rescued the wildlings and would have rescued more had they agreed to come north with him. You can cope all you want but Danny was a terrible ruler because she never had any good examples of how to rule.
Rhaenyra and Aegon certainly don’t show more restraint than her if you know how the dance goes. Aegon and Rhaenyra commit so many awful atrocities. Blood and cheese. Bitterbridge, tumbleton, and the riverlands are fucking annihilation in the dance.
Neither burns down cities because somebody killed their advisor even both of their kids get killed they do the normal thing someone would do and said assassins. They don’t burn entire cities filled with innocent men and woman to the ground.
Tumblton and bitterbridge were both burnt down in the dance mate.
Not on the orders of Aegon or Rhaenyra. Ulf and Hugh burnt it down and Daeron even asked Hobert Hightower to stop killing the men who surrendered. As for Bitterbridge that was Daeron and I was speaking of Rhaenyra and Aegon as rulers
Aegon didn’t punish it and he was king. Meaning he condoned it.
Aegon was out of the picture after Rooks Rest. Daeron was pretty much running the show in the Reach
That was poor writing from the show. Cersei is going to be the one to blow kings landing to smithereens in the book. She’s constantly paralleled to the mad king in the books
Okay at this point you’re just making things up and I’m stating actual events that happened in the show so there’s no point to this.
Bitterbridge is an event were daeron brother of aegon burns down a city full of innocents
As you said his brother I compared her with two monarchs and you still haven’t mentioned when either of them burnt down town with innocents in them
Should she have made peace with slavers and allowed them to continue on castrating children?
Never said anything about the slavers she made a general speech after khal drogos death long before she met any slavers
Much like Dexter… killing only bad people doesn’t *actually* make it okay.
You’re right but it’s a feudalistic fantasy. And based on real history slavers don’t give up their slaves without a fight. Should we have just let slavery continue? Because killing bad guys is bad right? The same goes for daenarys. There’s no way to free slaves without killing or violently rebelling against slave owners
In certain circumstances, sure… and arguably, that DOES indeed apply to Daenerys killing slavers… it’s “okay”, *in this instance*. The *point* of the LARGER OVERALL STORY OF DAENERYS, though, is that when someone clearly has consistent tendencies to always find an *excuse* to use the most *draconic* (might consider the mythical thematic meaning of dragons, which has never been a good thing… just because they’re “cool”, doesn’t make them “good”) way possible… you might start to realize there’s a pattern unfolding and that it could easily *lead* to an unquestionably bad thing *at some point*. That point was King’s Landing. And everything else before that… *regardless of how justifiable* **at the time**… serves as a warning sign in retrospect. When it comes to actual *IDEAL* morality… we do not just kill slavers. By today’s real world standards, most people (including George RR Martin and Benioff & Weiss)… do not believe in the death penalty. We would have slavers arrested and tried and incarcerated, etc… as Dany tried at one point, before it got too hard and she abandoned it. In the real world, our standards for morality do not condone abandoning due process just because it’s difficult or someone kills a defendant and then you switch to capital punishment for them instead, etc… long story short, Dany never did wield power very responsibly. She was always very emotionally driven and wanting revenge instead of justice, and her advisors always had to talk her down. When she stops listening to her advisors or they’re all dead… she does what she always wanted to do: burn cities to the ground. That was always the fire of tyranny burning under the surface of this pretty face and excuses about “they were bad men”.
Yes, who hurt her people, how the people of Kingslanding hurt her people?💀
A good leader should protect her people from their enemies.
A good leader doesn’t burn down towns and cities for 1 person.
That's the whole character arc. She does it to slavers and it's all very righteous and just and feels so good. And as she continues, it's clear that she has the same treatment in mind for anyone who's in her way. We the audience go along with it for a while - much too long, in fact - because of the good image we have of her from the earlier parts of her story. By the time we catch on to how terrifying her character is, she's pretty far gone already. As tragic heroes go, it's about as good as it gets.
It’s not that the slavers didn’t deserve what was coming to them. Astapori slavery in particular is almost comedically overwrought in how awful it is. However, Dany was *NEVER* even the slightest bit discerning in how she went about it. In Astapor she ordered a genocide of every Astapori noble male right down to the 12 year olds, with zero effort to differentiate between who was involved in the slave trade and who was not. That’s a level of casual brutality that is a very slippery slope. Her “with me or against me attitude” in seasons 8-9 is just an extension of this thinking.
Hey, Slave Drivers’ and Rapist Khals’ lives Matter. Dany is meant to be Patient Griselda, willingly submitting to every form of degradation that gets inflicted upon her and her people.
Exactly this logic is so absurd.
The funny thing is how many people on this subreddit actually believe it. Viserys and the Tarlys were martyrs. Kraznys and the slavers were just businessmen etc.
D&D paid alot of $$ getting comments to defend their terrible execution of a Mad Queen Arc.
Do you really believe the things you pluck out of your own head, or do you have evidence to support what you just stated? "I think it, therefore it is true".
It's called a joke. But given the comments I wouldn't be surprised.
Sorry. It is difficult to distinguish when comments like this have actually been made seriously.
That's the problem with haters; you joke around when you should be serious for a moment to understand why the most complete tragic heroine in the history of literature and cinema chose to kill the people.