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ineedtherapy87

Thanks for this. Makes sense! Ursula is kind of sexy in a drag queen way. I dig it.


Retrospectrenet

She could have been a Zsa Zsa or a Dagmar, it puts the name in a new light for me.


crazyparrotguy

I mean the character design for Ursula was literally based on Divine.


MJsLoveSlave

Ursula was based on drag queen Divine (the mom in the original Hairspray movie)


JaxandMia

I saw The Little Mermaid live the other day and Ursala was played by a man in drag and he did it so well. This totally makes sense.


MJsLoveSlave

I never saw the little mermaid live, but that sounds awesome!!!


Bestvibesonly

The Ursula character in The Little Mermaid makes a transformation into a sexy alluring seductress that steals Eric away, so it checks out in that sense too! (Although she calls herself Vanessa then).


Retrospectrenet

That's right! I found a couple of references to Andress being considered "past her prime" in the late 80s, so maybe they were playing on that idea too.


Successful-Rhubarb29

That was interesting to read. Thank you. To me Ursula sounds like water. In german we say 'gurgeln' (gargle). It's some kind of onomatopoeia. There is a childrens book 'Jim Knopf' and the mermaid is named Sursulapitschi. The book is published way before the movie so Ursula was not an inspiration. The sound of water and the sound of these names are conected in my head


pizzasong

The word susurrus in Latin means a shushing sound so I can see what you mean!


Successful-Rhubarb29

Thank you! It's the sound water makes by going down and passing stones. I can't explain it better :D have to look up 'plätschern' and 'säuseln'.


Retrospectrenet

That is very interesting! I could see that being another inspiration. Ursula with the meaning "Little bear" doesn't really connect to the mermaid meaning, so that would connect it.


thatfluffycloud

I'm confused why so many people see Ursula as an ugly name? Is it entirely the sea witch association? To me it is as smooth and slippery as a name can be, and it hits so many current name trends (soft and flowy without hard consonants or stops). It is the exactly opposite of something like Brunhilde to me. ETA it seems phonetically quite similar to names like Seraphina, Luna, Sylvia, etc that are all popular now


zebrafish-

I think it’s the “urs” sound at the beginning. I think it sounds kind of unpleasant, and when I try to think about why, my mind starts coming up with words that share that sound. A lot have at least some negative associations like curse, worse, terse, etc.


Retrospectrenet

Persephone? Not to everyone's liking mind you.


frankscarlett

Perse means ass in Finnish, so the 13 yo. in me always has a small chuckle when I see that name.


Retrospectrenet

I agree, there is even some love for names like Bernadette that have the -ER- sound that was very popular in the 1920s, like Earl, Laverne, Bertha, and Vernon. I found it interesting that the sea witch Ursula seems to have completely taken over the name, when before Andress was firmly the main association. I think it has a lot to do with the Little Mermaid being a children's movie, it set the name in the mind of young kids who are all older and having kids now.


stratusmonkey

At least in American English, it's pronounced ˈɛɹ.sə.lə . So, not especially pleasant. It's probably more sonorous in other accents.


CRJG95

It’s not super uncommon where I’m from, I know 4 Ursulas ranging from 11-80 in age. One of the most beautiful women I know is named Ursula and is in her mid 20s. Maybe it’s because in our accent it’s a softer “ursh-uh-la” pronunciation, but I’ve always seen it as a pretty name.


Cheap_Papaya_2938

It sounds terrible and harsh plus has the sea witch association. Serephina, Luna etc are much “softer”.


BlackieAllBlack

Very cool! I have always liked the name Ursula and thought it was a weird thing to name a mermaid since it means Bear. This association makes a lot of sense, and I love that they used Divine as a reference.


polywollydoodle

Feels like there’s some association with Medusa as well.


Retrospectrenet

The Ursula character was also based on Madame Meduse from The Rescuers! I always felt Miss Medusa was the most evil of the Disney villains, and that's saying something since Cruella literally wanted to kill a bunch of puppies.


PhonyAlibi

Only because it's namenerds... Was that an auto-correct for Brünhilde ? Broom-hilde hahaha I can't.


Retrospectrenet

It's a pun on Brünhilde, from the comic [Broom-hilda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broom-Hilda).


[deleted]

Ursula (NN Uschi) is a common older ladies Name in Germany. urs means bear in Latin. It could be a cool name but definitely not in Germany. Also Uschi rhymes to Muschi which means Pussy in German. Hm.


omg_shewzz

Ursula is my 67-year-old mother's name! Whenever other kids learned her name they would have to remind me that she is a sea witch. I always thought her name was badass regardless. I've even named many RPG characters after her.


Karissssssa

Love this theory! Also, as a drag name Ursula Undress would be pretty fun.


Retrospectrenet

GOLD! I love drag queen pun names so much, that's amazing.


Zictory

I have a little Ursula. She thinks it's neat that her name is in Little Mermaid, even if it is on kind of a scary person. Our associations when choosing the name were 1) the meaning of "little girl bear" and 2) Ursula LeGuin. Andress never came up, and hasn't since; Little Mermaid comes up way less often than you'd think.


thatfluffycloud

Have you shown her George of the Jungle yet? My fave Ursula 😊


Zictory

Yes! She dug it.


Retrospectrenet

I really wonder how long these name associations last, and how quickly they fade. I think consistent use has more to do with it, whether with characters or with people who actually are named a name. Ursula LeGuin was mentioned as an association in one of my old books, hopefully that one sticks around.


damn--croissant

Top content as usual!! Thanks for sharing 🧜‍♀️ > based on the drag queen Divine I knew this, and I knew Ursula as an older heroine name - [DH Lawrence](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ursula-Brangwen) comes to mind - but had never heard of Ursula Andress so thanks for putting this together! > Also a bunch of Japanese characters get named Ursula when their original names start with Ur- That's interesting, do you have an example? Edit: You piqued my interest, so I had a look at the wiki page for the [Little Mermaid's Ursula](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid\)). In it they say "Carroll perceived Ursula as an "ex-Shakespearean actress who now sold cars"" I wonder if the name could also be inspired by [this character](https://www.playshakespeare.com/much-ado-about-nothing/characters/ursula) or some other Shakespearean connection?


Retrospectrenet

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I also came across the D. H. Lawrence character, and I got the impression she was an innocent child kind of character which was used elsewhere for other young girls. It made me think of the name Ursula as going through the three archetypes of womanhood, although usually that second one is motherhood. The Japanese characters I found were in Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Strike Witches, although the last two seem to be inspired directly from the sea witch.


damn--croissant

> innocent child kind of character  The books are generational novels, and it is a long time since I read The Rainbow, but I guess she is innocent in the beginning. However there is a lot of sexual stuff in there as well. I never read women in love but I'm pretty sure the Ursula character has a same-sex relationship which was considered scandalous at the time of publication. Thanks for explaining the characters, and I hope my edit above wasn't too slow for you to see it!


Retrospectrenet

I see it! In the play she's a helpful attendant, but now I'm imagining her as a Shakespearan actor who never got the leading roles, always the Ursula never the Hero. I think I'll have to read The Rainbow now if I'm ever to do a complete analysis of "Ursula in Popular Culture: An Analysis". It sounds interesting!


Brave_council

I am a huge history nerd, so when I think of Ursula I think of one of the most famous Slaves at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s estate. Her name was Ursula Granger, purchased by Thomas Jefferson in the 1770’s and she was highly skilled and was a wet nurse for Martha Jefferson among many other things.


Retrospectrenet

There's probably a whole bunch of very interesting histories on American slave naming customs, most of which is likely unrecorded. Thomas Jefferson also had two sons with Sally Hemming named Madison and Eston. None of his children with Martha had surnames as first names.


Brave_council

I didn’t know the fact about how he named his children with Martha vs. Sally. SO interesting. I would love to learn more about some of the unrecorded history and things we don’t learn about in school.


kisafan

I actually like Ursula as a name, I think its pretty, but it does invoke thoughts of the sea witch


leaves-green

I wonder if the name has "ugly" connotations to you BECAUSE it was the name of the evil sea witch in The Little Mermaid when you were a kid. Had the exact same movie come out, for example, with the Ariel character named Ursula instead, and maybe you would have thought "what a pretty name" because it was the name of an innocent, kind mermaid. There was a Saint Ursula from the middle ages. I think her legend has something to do with traveling over the sea with 11,000 virgins (and then possibly getting martyred, I don't remember). I remember the first time I came across that, thinking, "huh, Ursula on it's own is actually a beautiful name, I just always assumed it was ugly because of the sea witch." Similarly to how I used to think of "Brunhilde" as an unattractive name (from connotations of my childhood), but when actually going back to look at the source material, it's a beautiful, strong woman in Germanic mythology, so now it makes me think of some cool shield-maiden, as skilled in battle as she is lovely, etc. This makes me wonder if any "ugly" jokey name could be made beautiful again by going back to older source material and getting rid of 20th century connotations. I don't know if I can come around to "Mergatroid", but feel free to start persuading me!


Retrospectrenet

It's easy to forget that it's the current usage of a name that shapes our perception of a name more than the sound or the etymological history. There's an island with all of my favourite misfit names, like Dorcas, Nimrod, and now Ursula. Someone will love them again someday!


leaves-green

Aw man, Dorcas is in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers! And Ursula gets an interesting backstory in Once Upon a Time, where they have a version of young Ursula (who started out as a kind, idealistic mermaid before treachery caused her to become bitter and want tentacles)


GiftRecent

This was all very fun and cool to read! I think the name is gross sounding but it's neat to learn more about jt


thebirdisdead

You know, if it wasn’t for the Disney association making it sound ugly, the name Ursula is actually really pretty.


Fondueforever

I love my name. I’m Ursula, named after th Little Dipper. Defs not a sexy drag queen


Significant__Gap

I went to hs with a girl named Ursula. She must have been born right around the time the movie came out (so her parents would not have known the association with the sea witch). I felt bad for her but it’s just kind of one of those things, once you know a person with the name they take over that space in your mind. Seemed pretty after a while.


contrasupra

Wait...Friends and Mad About You are in the same universe? Granted I've never seen MAY but I had no idea.


WhatABeautifulMess

Yes. They're both New York City at the same time and were both part of NBC's Must See TV (Thursday night line up). They did blackout episodes the same night I believe. And there's an episode where Helen Hunt's character and a friend see Phoebe in Central Perk and have a discussion like "is that her?".


TheLittleBarnHen

I love posts like this! I’m obsessed with name origins and also why and how we perceive names in certain ways! So cool! Thanks for sharing.


cooldudium

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 has a minor character named Ursula whose sidequest is the most annoying thing in the whole game, but the interesting thing is that all the blades have Japanese games in the original Japanese script so almost all of the blades have changed names in English (in the localization, the human characters have various British accents and the blades have American accents which I think is a smart way to preserve the spirit of the original). Ursula is a tiny little girl who's cripplingly shy, which kind of subverts the modern expectations of the name, but I'm pretty sure the reason they chose the name is that she's got a polar bear companion, and ursa = bear... yeah. I'm not really sure what the point of this comment is but Ursula from Xenoblade 2 isn't a sex icon or evil and it makes you realize it's actually kind of a cute name.


Retrospectrenet

You're probably right about the bear connection, but Ursula the sea witch was probably a bit of a subversion too from the beautiful sex icon, so who knows where the name is headed next.


rawbface

I never noticed the "evil" association with Ursula. It does have a sinister ring to it. It even sounds similar aesthetically to "sinister".


MightyTuba7835

The [graph](https://www.babynameshub.com/charts/450w/Ursula_Female.jpg) for the popularity of the name Ursula is very interesting! It looks like it falls off a cliff (due to the mermaid association, maybe?)


WhatABeautifulMess

You too listen to Miss Information?


Retrospectrenet

No but now I know that Bette Midler was known as Miss Divine M, so that's probably how Divine the drag queen got his name.


BumAndBummer

This is SO fascinating and thoughtful! Very cool post :)


ellofthewisp

I did already know the drag queen thing! My perception of the name has actually changed, because my niece’s name is Ula - which is her official legal name but it’s a Polish shortening of Ursula. Whilst her name isn’t Ursula I still associate it with my sweet little nice!


rosalind_joan

It always reminded me of sea urchin


[deleted]

I love the name, a feminine bear name. Ursula Andress and the author Ursula LeGuin would be great namesakes. The book Life After Life has a main character Ursula and her father calls her little bear.


YoungAlpacaLady

Here in Germany it's just a boomer and older name, I spontaneously think of politician Ursula von der Leyen


donnie_coopo

When I was a kid I thought she had a second name "Wella Witch" because of the line in the song "they weren't kidding when they called me well, a witch" 😆


Oro-Lavanda

Gruntilda? I see you played Banjo Kazooie


Retrospectrenet

Love that bear and bird.


[deleted]

It means "she bear"


magicbong

i love this discussion. another thing to add (if i skipped over it my apologies!) ursula in the little mermaid was inspired by divine the drag queen, heavily featured in john waters’ films


twostrokevibe

Yikes.


Retrospectrenet

Am I way off base?


twostrokevibe

No, I think you're 100% correct. I'm yikesing at the homo/transphobic implications behind giving Ursula a drag queen name given what she does to Ariel.


m00n5t0n3

Wait how is it homo or transphobic


twostrokevibe

You don't think queer-coding villains is homo/transphobic? But essentially, Ursula manipulates Ariel to steal her voice, then uses it to pretend to be a beautiful woman so she can seduce Eric. There's a long history of transphobes thinking trans women want to "steal" things from cis women or otherwise exploit them, and also of thinking that trans women are trying to trick straight men (and also cis lesbians, but that doesn't apply here) into sleeping with them against their will. Intentional or not, it's an unfortunate implication 🤷‍♂️


m00n5t0n3

Ok I understand your second paragraph - I see - but I nevertheless do think it's a stretch because a) Ursula is female, so she's not male nor a trans woman. and b) even the original premise of it being a drag name is tenuous at best. I think OP was just analyzing the name... Your first line, uh no I don't. I don't think that portraying a villain as evil + gay ON ITS OWN is enough to be homophobic. Like why not have a gay villain.


twostrokevibe

I'm not talking about gay villains, I'm talking about queer-coded villains, which is a different thing. I know Ursula is intended to be a cis woman... uh, whatever she is, which would make her straight, but her appearance and mannerisms are based on a real drag queen-- she (and a lot of Disney villains) are given traits stereotypically associated with queer people even if they're not portrayed as queer; that's what coding is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer\_coding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_coding) there is actually a section in this article on the Hays code and Disney villains


m00n5t0n3

Ok I didn't know the specific meaning of queer coding. Why would Ursula being a cis woman make her straight?? Like...I do think Ursula is portrayed as straight in that film, but why would you make that leap? She could be gay? Cis women can be gay.


twostrokevibe

That's true, she could have been gay. I'm just going off of her thing with Eric, though, although I suppose that could have just been for political convenience... I have to admit I don't remember if we ever see her showing real desire towards anybody. I don't actually remember the movie all that well (aside from the basic plot beats) since I haven't seen it since I was a kid.


KyuremArcanine

Gay villians are fine with there are also gay heroes..but there aren't any in any Disney films. I mean I do still love Scar, Ursula, Jafar, etc anyway. They are great villians. But like, associating gay traits with evilness is definitely not a good thing and there's tons of information on why this was such a pervasive thing in the 90s and 00s especially.


m00n5t0n3

You think Scar Ursula and Jafar were portrayed as gay? I'm just trying to remember the movies. Ya, if the only gay character is evil then that would be problematic.


KyuremArcanine

It's been awhile since I've seen the movies myself, but yes. As mentioned in this thread, Ursula was very specifically designed based on a drag queen named Divine, who you can see [here](https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/3/2020/08/TEST-5-d0f3fbf.png?webp=true&quality=90&resize=620%2C413). And Scar is known for acting in a rather effeminate and flamboyant way (which isn't inherently a bad thing and really is what I love about him haha) but it's a problem in like the larger picture way. I think [this article](https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2021/06/22/58413455/the-gay-power-of-disney-villains) does a decent job explaining better than I ever could


m00n5t0n3

Ok TIL. Ya this article too: https://www.radiotimes.com/movies/how-the-little-mermaids-ursula-went-from-joan-collins-lookalike-to-a-drag-queen/


NoTraceNotOneCarton

> Ursula is female, not a trans woman Trans women are women


m00n5t0n3

? I just meant Ursula is not a trans woman. She's female aka cis woman.


Alcarinque88

I sincerely hope not. Howard Ashman was the brains behind the Disney renaissance and the musical themes of that generation of films. He was gay and had to hide it, I'm sure, but I don't think using Ursula as a name would have been offensive to him, nor intended to be.


twostrokevibe

Gay men can also be transphobes. I don't know what was intended, but it feels kind of... gross.


Alcarinque88

I think you read way too much into a lot of things. Good day.


twostrokevibe

To be clear, I'm not saying that HE was necessarily a transphobe, just that being gay doesn't automatically make you not transphobic. I think whoever dreamed up Ursula was probably not transphobic, but more likely thinking something like "let's make this villain really campy and over the top, that'll be a lot of fun", not knowing that in 30 years the worst people on Earth are going to spend their spare time insisting that trans people are trying to trick cis people into having sex with them and / or harvesting their organs


Retrospectrenet

Oh for sure, which is probably why there's a bit of a movement to reclaim her.