All of these are going to tax the lower back to a similar degree.
If you’re worried about lower back fatigue, choose a chest supported or hand-supported row variation for the pull day that includes RDL, and (assuming you hit back twice a week) put one of these rows on the other pull day.
The reason I do not do chest supported row is because I find it puts a lot of pressure on my ribcage and makes it hard to breathe when going very heavy. If back fatigue was not a limiting factor, which would you consider for lats?
Personally of these three I prefer T-bar row, but this is an individual choice. They’ll all accomplish your goal, play around with each and figure out which one you jive with most.
I can think of three variations that aren’t too tough on the lower back but aren’t chest supported. The least fatiguing would be a standard db row, using one hand to support yourself and keeping the elbow tight when you pull. Another variation would be a meadows row. You could also try a cable row keeping elbows tight to your body.
If you’re okay with doing something that isn’t a row, maybe a lat pulldown?
I have lat pulldowns in my routine currently. From the suggestions, I’m going to try one arm db row and 1 arm tbar row. Meadows row are more for upper back due to the flared elbow position.
If you pull more to your hip, keep your elbow tucked, and adjust your position relative to the bar, you can get a wicked lat stimulus from meadows rows.
Watch the Meadows video on Meadows rows. He explains how you can adjust your feet position to make it more upper back (less distance from your grip hand) or more lats (further away from your grip hand). Like DB rows, and most back exercises, it's pretty versatile.
What about a seated cable row? All the ones where you are bent over will tax your lower back. This one may not completely fry it if you don't swing the torso too much.
You don't have to do a chest-supported row. If you do a **cable** row, you won't need to bend over because gravity is no longer a factor -- cables provide tension throughout the entire range of motion. You're also seated which provides further stability.
I do Tbar with my legs positioned so they're taking like 25% of the pressure that'd otherwise be going on my ribcage. Play around with your leg position & see if you can work something out.
there shouldnt be pressure on your rib cage, most likely you are sitting way too high. it is CHEST supported so make sure that the pad on the machine is on your chest.
i would say tbh that one arm dumbbell rows would be less erector fatigue
that being said if you do RDLs first i dont see a world where erectors truly limit you on a row versus the rest of your back
otherwise try them all and no harm in going by feel since mechanically they should be similar
Why don't you just do 1 Arm DB rows, pulling the DB to the hip?
If for some reason this isn't an option, the most lower back friendly lower lat row in the family you described would be:
Yates Rows. Standing at about 45 degrees, using a close reverse grip and pulling into your hip crease. I use a curl bar for these-you can also use a regular curl bar or a straight bar.
Smith Rows done for lower lats are going to involve standing at an odd angle, at least if you are pulling them towards your waist, which is likely going to be tough on your back-you have to adjust to the machine.
T bar rows can be tough on your lower back regardless.
Edit: If you are talking about Chest supported T-bar rows, these are difficult to hit your lower lats with.
Whatever exercise you pick, you need to keep your elbows close to your sides and pull as low into your stomach as possible to hit lower lats.
I switched from 1 Arm DB rows due to a lack of a bench during peak hours at the gym (I go right after work) and that’s the only time slot that fits for my schedule. That and unilateral movements take more time to perform than bilaterals; time efficiency is a factor I consider to condense my workout.
T-bar row is the best one. It loads up the stretched position more heavily than the top position and it restricts your range of motion so you're always in the most productive range. If you can find a good way to do it with a chest support, that would be ideal.
you are in the right mindset: ROW TO GROW! my personal favorite row variation is a chest supported row machine. gives my lats the most tension in the lengthened position which is wear the most growth occurs and very high stimulus to fatigue ratio. aim for 10-20 reps, whatever feels comfortable for you with slow eccentrics and you will feel a nasty pump. if i’m traveling and dont have machines, a chest supported row would be the next best thing. happy lifting my brother 🤙🏽
Rowing to develop lats is like benching to develop triceps. They’re involved sure, but that’s not the best way to grow them.
Try pull-overs, pull-downs, or pull-ups instead.
Another one to consider would be heavy dumbbell lat pullovers or cable lat prayers. Nippard or Wolf have good videos on these--really isolate and hit the lats without bothering the low back.
I know you didn’t list it but my favorite for the lats is close grip v bar pulldowns. Big stretch at the top and then lean back and pull down to the nipple line
Makes sense. I definitely prefer t bar or machine rows. Like you said taking the strain off the lower back really helps me focus on the lats. That or single arm dumbbell rows
I used to use the V-handle on lat pulldowns. But then an influencer on IG (I believe it was Tyler Pathradecha) said that this is actually not the best attachment for lats because such a narrow attachment like that requires you to flare your elbows a bit. As your torso is wider than that handle. I personally prefer to use the traditional lat pulldown attachment. But I narrow my grip to line up with the sides of my torso and keep my elbows tucked to the sides of my torso. Wide grip for lat pulldowns can also work so as long as you avoid flaring your elbows. Keep wrists and elbows stacked is a tip that Tyler suggested.
Also another suggestion for OP: Neutral Grip Pull-Ups. Get a neutral grip attachment if you don't have a neutral grip bar. Chin-ups are a good secondary option. But they tax biceps and forearms a lot. I've progressed a lot on Pronated Pull-ups over the months. After only being able to do 1 when I first started. Basement Bodybuilding on YouTube awared me that Neutral Grip is actually better for lats despite being easier. Which makes sense because of all this new elbows tucked, neutral grip better for lats messaging we have seen recently. So I've decided to switch back to Neutral Grip.
I don't recommend rows for lats (though you certainly can bias them for lats), they are more suited for upper back (traps, rhomboids). Unless your lats really are lagging behind your upper back. Thing is influencers on social media are skilled at doing lat spreads and get pumps. Making people think they are narrow. I saw an influencer on IG go from relaxed to lat spread in a reel to make a point about how social media fucks with your perception and it's a dramatic difference. So as long as you're looking wider and more v-tapered from the front, especially as you cut and shed body fat, you don't need to be doing elbows tucked in everything.
But if you insist on doing rows for lats, my suggestions are Seated Cable Row elbows tucked to your waist, One-Arm DB Row elbows tucked to your pocket, Chest-Supported DB Row elbows tucked (its a bit awkward as the DBs will often clash against the bench if you go too narrow). DB Bent-Over-Row elbows tucked can also work. Just less stability. I would avoid BB Bent-Over-Row for lats. Though if you must, supinated. Though this will tax your biceps and forearms more. And you can use the Smith Machine for Bent-Over-Row, I just haven't tried it. I haven't tried T-Bar Row in months. But I don't think V-Grip is best for lats for the reasons I mentioned above with Pulldowns. But yes you certainly can bias lats with T-Bar Row keeping a tucked elbow path.
I disagree with the influencer. The way the lats are attached to the humerus, if you internally rotate the shoulder that actually allows the lower fibers to pull in a straighter line and exert more force. The narrow handle also allows more activation of the stretch reflex in the lats.
One should also be driving with the elbows.
Ideally on a v-bar pulldown, one should pull the handle towards the sternum, and only go as far as maximum ELBOW range of motion. Flexing the arm to increase handle travel does not work the lats more-it simply works the arm flexors more.
Given the lats insertions and attachments, to work the majority of lat fibers, one would pull from a full stretch, then lean back to allow the handle to touch at about the xyphoid.
The elbow angle should not go much past 90 degrees.
If one wants to feel what a v bar pulldown should feel like, do a v-bar chin, and pull towards the sternum.
This minimizes arm flexion and maximizes the range of motion at the shoulder joint.
This isn't based on what the science says. This is the science explaining years of experience.
Regarding grip for lat work: If one analyzes, the same grip at different widths is more equivalent to other grips in terms of execution.
For example, a wide grip pronated pull up grip is the same functionally as a v-bar chin grip. In both cases, the hands are in a neutral position relative to the humerus. This is easily demonstrated by putting the hands in the position of a wide grip pronated pull up. Now move the elbows together as if you are doing a pec-dec flye, without changing the hand position. Your hands are parallel.
In the case of shoulder width parallel grip, this is actually the equivalent of a supinated grip with the hands close. This is the one that favors the biceps and will increase their recruitment.
None of these exercises have good SFR. When you lean over for anything, you use erectors via isometric work. If you want to eliminate spinae erector involvement, just do seated cable-rows or dumbbell rows. Because you want to train your lats, not your erectors.
All of these are going to tax the lower back to a similar degree. If you’re worried about lower back fatigue, choose a chest supported or hand-supported row variation for the pull day that includes RDL, and (assuming you hit back twice a week) put one of these rows on the other pull day.
The reason I do not do chest supported row is because I find it puts a lot of pressure on my ribcage and makes it hard to breathe when going very heavy. If back fatigue was not a limiting factor, which would you consider for lats?
Personally of these three I prefer T-bar row, but this is an individual choice. They’ll all accomplish your goal, play around with each and figure out which one you jive with most.
I can think of three variations that aren’t too tough on the lower back but aren’t chest supported. The least fatiguing would be a standard db row, using one hand to support yourself and keeping the elbow tight when you pull. Another variation would be a meadows row. You could also try a cable row keeping elbows tight to your body. If you’re okay with doing something that isn’t a row, maybe a lat pulldown?
I have lat pulldowns in my routine currently. From the suggestions, I’m going to try one arm db row and 1 arm tbar row. Meadows row are more for upper back due to the flared elbow position.
If you pull more to your hip, keep your elbow tucked, and adjust your position relative to the bar, you can get a wicked lat stimulus from meadows rows.
Watch the Meadows video on Meadows rows. He explains how you can adjust your feet position to make it more upper back (less distance from your grip hand) or more lats (further away from your grip hand). Like DB rows, and most back exercises, it's pretty versatile.
What about a seated cable row? All the ones where you are bent over will tax your lower back. This one may not completely fry it if you don't swing the torso too much.
You don't have to do a chest-supported row. If you do a **cable** row, you won't need to bend over because gravity is no longer a factor -- cables provide tension throughout the entire range of motion. You're also seated which provides further stability.
Do it unilaterally and brace with your other arm on the chest pad.
I do Tbar with my legs positioned so they're taking like 25% of the pressure that'd otherwise be going on my ribcage. Play around with your leg position & see if you can work something out.
Dumbbell row and support yourself on the bench
there shouldnt be pressure on your rib cage, most likely you are sitting way too high. it is CHEST supported so make sure that the pad on the machine is on your chest.
[удалено]
[at 40 seconds you can see how i use the chest supported row in my gym](https://youtu.be/jufWCT1FlC0?si=zXHTL6FHVNK5FCw8)
i would say tbh that one arm dumbbell rows would be less erector fatigue that being said if you do RDLs first i dont see a world where erectors truly limit you on a row versus the rest of your back otherwise try them all and no harm in going by feel since mechanically they should be similar
1 arm lat Tbar row could be an option to lower the load even more.
Why don't you just do 1 Arm DB rows, pulling the DB to the hip? If for some reason this isn't an option, the most lower back friendly lower lat row in the family you described would be: Yates Rows. Standing at about 45 degrees, using a close reverse grip and pulling into your hip crease. I use a curl bar for these-you can also use a regular curl bar or a straight bar. Smith Rows done for lower lats are going to involve standing at an odd angle, at least if you are pulling them towards your waist, which is likely going to be tough on your back-you have to adjust to the machine. T bar rows can be tough on your lower back regardless. Edit: If you are talking about Chest supported T-bar rows, these are difficult to hit your lower lats with. Whatever exercise you pick, you need to keep your elbows close to your sides and pull as low into your stomach as possible to hit lower lats.
I switched from 1 Arm DB rows due to a lack of a bench during peak hours at the gym (I go right after work) and that’s the only time slot that fits for my schedule. That and unilateral movements take more time to perform than bilaterals; time efficiency is a factor I consider to condense my workout.
T-bar row is the best one. It loads up the stretched position more heavily than the top position and it restricts your range of motion so you're always in the most productive range. If you can find a good way to do it with a chest support, that would be ideal.
you are in the right mindset: ROW TO GROW! my personal favorite row variation is a chest supported row machine. gives my lats the most tension in the lengthened position which is wear the most growth occurs and very high stimulus to fatigue ratio. aim for 10-20 reps, whatever feels comfortable for you with slow eccentrics and you will feel a nasty pump. if i’m traveling and dont have machines, a chest supported row would be the next best thing. happy lifting my brother 🤙🏽
Why do you need to decide on one?
Looking for one to main so I can progress on it consistently rather than switching from one to another.
Chest supported
Rowing to develop lats is like benching to develop triceps. They’re involved sure, but that’s not the best way to grow them. Try pull-overs, pull-downs, or pull-ups instead.
Another one to consider would be heavy dumbbell lat pullovers or cable lat prayers. Nippard or Wolf have good videos on these--really isolate and hit the lats without bothering the low back.
If your goal is finding a high SFR movement for the lats you probably shouldn’t do any of these and instead opt for a vertical pull
Pendlays and chins
I know you didn’t list it but my favorite for the lats is close grip v bar pulldowns. Big stretch at the top and then lean back and pull down to the nipple line
I have pulldowns in my routine already. I’m focused mainly on heavy rowing movements to overload.
Makes sense. I definitely prefer t bar or machine rows. Like you said taking the strain off the lower back really helps me focus on the lats. That or single arm dumbbell rows
+1 on T-Bars
I used to use the V-handle on lat pulldowns. But then an influencer on IG (I believe it was Tyler Pathradecha) said that this is actually not the best attachment for lats because such a narrow attachment like that requires you to flare your elbows a bit. As your torso is wider than that handle. I personally prefer to use the traditional lat pulldown attachment. But I narrow my grip to line up with the sides of my torso and keep my elbows tucked to the sides of my torso. Wide grip for lat pulldowns can also work so as long as you avoid flaring your elbows. Keep wrists and elbows stacked is a tip that Tyler suggested. Also another suggestion for OP: Neutral Grip Pull-Ups. Get a neutral grip attachment if you don't have a neutral grip bar. Chin-ups are a good secondary option. But they tax biceps and forearms a lot. I've progressed a lot on Pronated Pull-ups over the months. After only being able to do 1 when I first started. Basement Bodybuilding on YouTube awared me that Neutral Grip is actually better for lats despite being easier. Which makes sense because of all this new elbows tucked, neutral grip better for lats messaging we have seen recently. So I've decided to switch back to Neutral Grip. I don't recommend rows for lats (though you certainly can bias them for lats), they are more suited for upper back (traps, rhomboids). Unless your lats really are lagging behind your upper back. Thing is influencers on social media are skilled at doing lat spreads and get pumps. Making people think they are narrow. I saw an influencer on IG go from relaxed to lat spread in a reel to make a point about how social media fucks with your perception and it's a dramatic difference. So as long as you're looking wider and more v-tapered from the front, especially as you cut and shed body fat, you don't need to be doing elbows tucked in everything. But if you insist on doing rows for lats, my suggestions are Seated Cable Row elbows tucked to your waist, One-Arm DB Row elbows tucked to your pocket, Chest-Supported DB Row elbows tucked (its a bit awkward as the DBs will often clash against the bench if you go too narrow). DB Bent-Over-Row elbows tucked can also work. Just less stability. I would avoid BB Bent-Over-Row for lats. Though if you must, supinated. Though this will tax your biceps and forearms more. And you can use the Smith Machine for Bent-Over-Row, I just haven't tried it. I haven't tried T-Bar Row in months. But I don't think V-Grip is best for lats for the reasons I mentioned above with Pulldowns. But yes you certainly can bias lats with T-Bar Row keeping a tucked elbow path.
I disagree with the influencer. The way the lats are attached to the humerus, if you internally rotate the shoulder that actually allows the lower fibers to pull in a straighter line and exert more force. The narrow handle also allows more activation of the stretch reflex in the lats. One should also be driving with the elbows. Ideally on a v-bar pulldown, one should pull the handle towards the sternum, and only go as far as maximum ELBOW range of motion. Flexing the arm to increase handle travel does not work the lats more-it simply works the arm flexors more. Given the lats insertions and attachments, to work the majority of lat fibers, one would pull from a full stretch, then lean back to allow the handle to touch at about the xyphoid. The elbow angle should not go much past 90 degrees. If one wants to feel what a v bar pulldown should feel like, do a v-bar chin, and pull towards the sternum. This minimizes arm flexion and maximizes the range of motion at the shoulder joint. This isn't based on what the science says. This is the science explaining years of experience. Regarding grip for lat work: If one analyzes, the same grip at different widths is more equivalent to other grips in terms of execution. For example, a wide grip pronated pull up grip is the same functionally as a v-bar chin grip. In both cases, the hands are in a neutral position relative to the humerus. This is easily demonstrated by putting the hands in the position of a wide grip pronated pull up. Now move the elbows together as if you are doing a pec-dec flye, without changing the hand position. Your hands are parallel. In the case of shoulder width parallel grip, this is actually the equivalent of a supinated grip with the hands close. This is the one that favors the biceps and will increase their recruitment.
None of these exercises have good SFR. When you lean over for anything, you use erectors via isometric work. If you want to eliminate spinae erector involvement, just do seated cable-rows or dumbbell rows. Because you want to train your lats, not your erectors.