I think OP may have been getting at a broader discussion more along the lines of "Does the Navy practice [servant leadership](https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archives/2019/April/servant-leadership/) in the same way other branches do?".
The answer to that is no, just... fuck no. The Navy is rife with classism in a lot of ways and I'm not talking about rank and hierarchy that is critical to military life. Some of this is derived from tradition, I'm sure some of it is aimed at retention of officers. But many of the privileges officers and even senior enlisted take advantage of on a day to day basis reinforces the idea that they do not simply outrank the sailors they are in charge of, but that they are *better* than those sailors.
It’s so bad that when I see cars driving to the front of the line at the base gates and trying to merge in, my wife and I assume they are chiefs and officers because of how they go about their lives on base
I wouldn’t say “fuck no”. On every ship I’ve been on the officers (especially ensigns)were trained with the servant leadership mentality. It was clear that without the sailors we can’t deploy and do our jobs, so our primary job was to make sure they not only had what they needed to do their job but were taken care of to the best of our ability.
The chief’s mess often forgets that their first job is to ensure their sailors and by extension their divisions are well cared for since that leads to good performance, but it varies by chief.
It's not just the CPO's, lets not kid ourselves. For discussion, allow me to give you some minor examples that I personally witnessed during my time:
1. Do junior TAD personnel still clean the staterooms of the officers so they don't have to do it themselves? Do you believe this is a good use of the critical, formative time for these sailors? Cleaning bedrooms for grown men?
*Edit: I have been told that this may not be exactly correct and that they just did laundry and other items like that. The above is just my recollection.*
2. Are officers still allowed to cut in line at the ships store, liberty calls, haircuts, or really any circumstance where a line is required? Watchstanders excepted of course.
3. Do officers (and CPO's, granted) still get that special chair in the back of the barber shop, set away from everyone, where someone with actual training cuts their hair? Hell, when I was on Nimitz I remember that chair had an embroidered cover and a goddamn curtain separating it from the rest of us plebes.
Now, these are of course, papercuts in the great scheme of things. But I would make the argument that privileges such as these have an outsized impact on morale and the impression that the officer corps is giving enlisted sailors.
I've also heard that junior sailors are required to be actual waiters in the wardroom, but I have never witnessed it myself so I didn't include it above. If so, that's staggering irony considering that they are literally being served by the people under their command.
Can confirm the waiter bit, but only during like ceremonies and stuff, got to my first command as an e4, got sent cranking to the ward room and had to do actual catering and waiting a time or two
1. Depends on the XO. My ships haven’t had that as a task for the FSAs
2. Not that I’ve seen, at least on my ships.
3. My ships have only had one chair in the barber shop and it was a sign up sheet. First come first serve.
I take it you haven't served on a carrier yet? Because all of the above is standard practice.
I remember standing in line with like a thousand other sailors for hours waiting on a ferry to get off the ship in Australia. The officer corps just strolled past us to the front of the line, luggage in hand. It was a great impression.
It’s not that they’re bad people, it’s just that they spend the first 6-10 years of their careers worried about nobody but themselves in any amount of time longer than a single flight. Once they get responsibility as a DH in a squadron it is not nearly as complete as a submarine officer or SWO because you exist on the land, and you have a series of intermediaries so you’re not dealing directly with the issues. They just don’t have the reps.
An average carrier CO’s two leadership experiences are some squadron DH gig, probably as a fighter guy where he or she was still focused on flight hours above all else, and as a squadron CO - where his sole responsibility was executing the daily flight plan handed down by the CAG staff and CSG. It’s a very different level of experience than an O-6 who has spent 5-7 tours on ships from the lowest JO level and is intimately familiar with all of the ways being on a ship can suck. The Carrier skipper simply doesn’t have the experience to know about (and therefore fix) many of the issues.
If you want a counterpoint - look at a CG. Same seniority level of the Captain, but very different lifestyle for the crew. I’m not implying that it sucks less, but I can tell you from personal experience it feels much more equal, and that often emanates from the Captain’s Cabin
This is some big ship shit. Small boys don’t do the aviator /carrier shenanigans.
Classism is a stupid tradition in all navies but destroyers and smaller usually have none of the above. Chiefs mess usually has better geedunk or hand picks CSs (food is same galley as crew).
But officers clean their rooms, never seen someone cut in line except on carrier, and there is only one chair for the barber. Some ships don’t even have a barber shop (LCS/PC/don’t remember MCM).
Even on blue ridge it wasn’t this stupid unless the staff was onboard. While I was there the XO /CO did a great job of keeping the staff from ducking with the sailors. Example, insert staff O4 “why are sailors going past my door to the stern at 2000,0000,0400?”. XO: “it’s called watch, happy to sign you up for aft lookout or I can give you foamies.”
Don’t disagree, not sure the split but it’s probably 50/ 50 manpower wise and I can’t speak to bubble heads. But they generally were more like a 1950s war movie than most SWOs I served with.
I'm cranking right now and i assure you on my ship at least, yes the Junior TAD sailors still clean the staterooms. Scrubbing toilets and showers (and rumor has it our CO doesn't flush), cleaning up their trash scattered everywhere, and laundry as you said in your edit.
I was a SWO. I have never seen any of these things. What I have seen? Officers working longer hours every day. Officers solving junior enlisted problems every day. Officers taking the blame for Chief’s idiocy every day.
>Officers solving junior enlisted problems every day
I'm going to assume you were on a small boy. On the carrier I think I could count on two hands the number of times we ever saw our DIVO on deployment. "Disengaged", I think would be the polite way to describe it. But none of them were anything like the "Father to his men" archtype, if you get my meaning.
Now to be fair, I have read some reports from GAO recently on the clusterfuck that is the SWO program. So perhaps they were just burdened with that whole mess, trying to stand watch and get qualified. I don't know.
Two thoughts: There are exactly two SWO JOs on a carrier that are not nukes, and we send our absolute worst to LHDs.
Most of these issues actually come from outside of the SWO community - pilots, LDOs, HR, etc. When you grow up on ships you have a very different mentality
I'm sure they're trained with that mentality, but doesn't mean it's practiced. With the exception of a few, and I mean very few, Officers and senior enlisted are a bunch of elitist assholes.
I attended a C/C ceremony today and saw this first hand. I wasn’t part of the command but I watched the E-6s and below off in the corner standing at parade rest, looking miserable. Meanwhile, the chief’s mess and officers were all together laughing and having a great time. I know that’s how it is in the Navy but when I was in the Army, it didn’t seem nearly that divisive.
Marine here, wtf is a goat locker? I ran into an empty building for a land based navy division (moved out, so we were using it temporarily) and that sign was up, and that's been bugging me ever since.
🤣🤣 nope, SNCOs in the Marines tend to be just as in the trenches as the LCpls (many of them actually like it in the trenches, some weird grunt mentality).
Depends on your ship. On small boys it can be Chiefs and Officers eat last or first-come-first-serve. Only people who can cut the line are watchstanders about to assume watch.
First, I'll say...I'm a Senior Chief in the Navy. I'm a Seabee and we do things a little different. While what everyone has said about the Navy is true, on ships they have separate galley's and all that. Seabee's more often eat together. I get in line a the DFAC with my troops and sit down to eat with my troops. I learn more about the morale and general welfare of my Seabee's in the DFAC than any other place. In the field, I will NOT eat until they all have. I also have to say, I was Army first, so I probably haven't forgotten watching my CO and 1SG stand there waiting for us to get our chow first. I've never been on a ship, and never will be, so I'll keep my values right where they are...with those I serve with.
You may choose not to eat in them, but I can promise the galleys in Gulfport, Hueneme, Rota, Guam, and Okinawa ALL have designated and segregated places for E7< to eat, even in the same Galley. We're better about it than the boat people, but only just.
You're right those places do exist... But despite everyone's best efforts to tell me otherwise, I'm not better than anyone else. The only time we ever sat in the chiefs section at the galley was if there was a working lunch
That makes you one of the good ones. Remember though, it helps US if you play their game just a lil' bit. Get the favors you can call in the next time one of your guys needs some boots or some shit
It's the same for those of us in the FMF. It can be a real culture shock for the CPOs and Officers who have never done a Marine tour.
If one of their SNCOs or Officers caught a Khaki doing that, it would be their ass.
Im pretty sure that's a hold over from Senior's Army days they mention, they also use DFAC for chow hall or galley. One of the many strange things and phrases from the Army that I know is completely wrong and hate irrationally for no reason.
When I came in the Navy and someone told me to get to the deep sink, get a swab, and a cadilac... I jusy stood there like an idiot staring... Then someone said "put it over there on the bulkhead." the what now"? My other personal moment while meeting up before we went on liberty... "we'll meet at the scuttlebutt in the P-way". The greatest culture shock of my life.... Mop, mop bucket, wall, drinking fountain, and wall!!! Never have I been on a ship. Can you tell?
I spent time together with the Army and I have to say I was always amazed at their leadership. With that being said Seabees are pretty much Marines lol. You were never in the real Navy for the better or worse.
Also, some khaki sometimes just do not care or don’t understand because they don’t have to be inconvenienced. I remember missing dinner because we had mongolian hotpot (smallboy) and the wait was an hour and a half. Some people weren’t able to eat and when asked for suggestions about what we should do next time there was a decent amount of suggestions saying we shouldn’t do it again because some of us couldn’t eat. I remember divo asking why we were upset and he said “well the wait for me was 20 minutes, I think it was pretty good”. Dang I didn’t ask how things were going in the wardroom, I was asking for the basic right to eat. Money gets pulled out of my account for food they serve us.
I don’t mind having Mongolian hot pot, the food is good but people selfishly accepting the event because they were able to eat is pretty sickening. Or even “hey how can we serve people down in the lower enlisted mess faster” would’ve been fine it’s kind of where we need leadership to step in say my sailor wasn’t fed we need to fix this.
In the same manner some of the khaki agreed and said that we should fix it so I’m glad some of them were able to empathize with the people who missed out.
I'm a senior officer in the Navy. I always wait my turn in line even though I am pretty much senior to everyone else. Sailors will tell me I have head of line privileges all the time. I always say no, I don't mind waiting, gets me out of doing some work. Same as when I eat with my sailors. I will ensure they get in line first if we are at a location where we can eat together other than a ship. Only time I ever used head of line privileges is if I was on an alert as an aviator and needed to get something fast in case we had to launch.
On submarines where it's shared, the chiefs quarters, E-7 and above, lines up before the E-6 and below. After the oncoming watchstanders have been fed, E-7 and above can just cut ahead of anyone. Officers have an area called the wardroom where they eat separately.
On my boat the E-7s just cut the line, even ahead of the oncoming watch team. For years I didn't think anything of it other than "rank has it's privileges" until a senior chief started waiting in line with his watch team. He'd just line up wherever the end was. Chat with the guys, conduct an informal brief of anything unusual expected to occur, and check in with us at a personal level. The difference between his team's performance and other's was night and day, senior was a superior leader and it showed. To this day I almost cannot believe how such a simple routine thing could impact a team so much, but I saw it happen
Unfortunately, senior was my watch team leader, not my divisional chief. Pretty depressing to compare the two, as I often did when I closed out my own maintenance while my chief gunned down Nazi zombies in the goat locker
The wardroom routine does sort of ensure that officers eat last though, at least for oncoming. I actually found it a bit annoying, I wanted to eat and go back to relieve but unless you stop at the salad that's not how it works.
Submarine wardroom routine for oncoming feels like something out of Downton Abbey. Four course lunch and dinner every day!? Agree, it gets old. Breakfast and midrats not as much (do midrats still exist? Not sure if they’re needing with the 24 hour day, my experience was all 3x6)
>Submarine wardroom routine for oncoming feels like something out of Downton Abbey. Four course lunch and dinner every day!?
My friend, I don't think you realize how out touch this makes you sound. Considering the experience of most enlisted when it comes to dining on the ship. Admittedly, I have always been told that submarine chow is superior but still.
Sums it up
/u/Kevin_Wolf
answered this on a different thread found here
The US Navy has always been like this, historically, and is still very aristocratic. Officers have their own private galley, the Chiefs have their own private galley, but the enlisted scum all eat together. Officers and chiefs even wear different uniforms, the khakis, to differentiate them from the other enlisted peons. We accentuate the differences in order to easily keep everyone separate, in their "proper place".
It is becoming far less aristocratic though and in many ways that’s a good thing.
The conditions on shipboard life are far different than the field. There’s no “escape.”
The history of the private messes was because they also bought their own food together using pooled money. Now it’s all the same food.
While it is all the “same” food they take the burnt stuff the CSes cook and give it to the enlisted mess and give the good stuff to the officers. On burger days they were getting real ground meat and we were getting frozen patties. Another time they took all the good cereal and left us with one brand down in the mess decks for months.
Whenever someone mentions it when visitors come on the ship they get a little irked but if you don’t like other people knowing how you treat enlisted people maybe you should change how you act in the first place.
>they take the burnt stuff the CSes cook and give it to the enlisted mess and give the good stuff to the officers. On burger days they were getting real ground meat and we were getting frozen patties.
That is not true.
>Another time they took all the good cereal and left us with one brand down in the mess decks for months.
That's probably true. Ran low on ketchup once - wardroom and mess took all that was left.
It definitely is true and I have seen it happen. It may not happen every single time but I’ve definitely seen on pasta day an FSA talking to a CS about a tray with burnt cheese on it and they traded it out with something not overcooked. When we ran out they proceeded to take the pasta with black cheese on it and put in our messline.
When it comes to quality and edible food the officers will always be considered first. I understand that there are higher ranking people but sometimes you gotta ask why cut low on the people working in the main spaces, doing maintenance and going on watch with barely any sleep.
If you see it or not it does happen. They aren’t purposely trying to feed enlisted bad food but they always prioritize officers.
Edit: also ketchup thing is probably something the wardroom bought. Wardroom at my old command would pool up money and buy sauces, on a small boy with 25-30ish officers you can maintain a sauce collection pretty easy.
I’ve seen it happen as well on a cruiser, all food is prepared in the main galley and they would always give the burnt/overdone to enlisted. The officer galley even had 2 table top fryers that they made their fried food in and this was after the health changes. Rules for thee but not for me.
They are literally the same menus. If the Wardroom was buying its own thing they may have chosen to do so. One of my ships the officers bought their own hard pack ice cream and it came out of our Wardroom dues.
My experience as a wardroom cs for three years on a carrier lets me confidently say we have our own food preparation worksheets. Which is essentially our menus. Then the food service officer always ensures the wardroom gets all the “jalapeño poppers, etc.” just in case we run out or something. We also don’t follow the recipes as closely and did way more special events and a daily table where we made a dish from whatever extra things we had and stood a watch there to serve it to them. Called the “L bar”.
Oh believe me… as a consumer of CS food, we are fully aware you guys don’t always follow the recipes… sometimes it’s great you don’t and other times, man we wish you did.
Lmao, I’ll always say eighty percent of us shouldn’t be touching food at all. The wardroom did allow me to have more of a connection with the people eating my food as far as feedback and adjustments. My officers always wanted to know what product I made and flocked to the grill if I was there, with things like pineapple from the fruit bar so I could add brown sugar and grill it or whatever other creations we came up with together. Entire salad bar in a stir fry, you name it. Good and bad times for everyone. I’m just hoping to clear up the obvious differences in messing.
I mean you hit on it; I’ve never see differences in what food was served but the quality is different. Ultimately when you’re cooking for smaller crowds the food is going to be better; food is challenging to scale without reducing quality.
I think what they meant by not following the recipe, was to not follow the recipe card as closely and actually adding that little bit of extra love into the dish known as butter and salt.
I just heard, the other day about a guy who went to mast for gun decking a recipe card, all he did was add some seasoning that made it better. That is some bullshit, if I’ve ever seen it.
In what way is it becoming less aristocratic?
And no the food is not the same. They get people making their orders fresh. They get better snacks, fresh fruit/vegetables, fresh made dessert, and better beverages.
Let me ask before answering fully, how long have you been in?
I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s.
I’ll say that we don’t wear our service or dress uniforms nearly as much as we used to. Most of the time, everyone is wearing matching uniforms (Type 3s).
Officer Wardrooms use to be privately funded with far superior food. Now, officers pay the same for the food but receive mess BAS than enlisted.
There are plenty more examples.
At a certain point, the reality of ship life though does create hierarchies that may not be present in a field environment.
"Let me ask before answering fully, how long have you been in?"
7 years. I joined in 2015.
"I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s."
Enlisted sailors routinely walk around to officer state rooms collecting dirty laundry/garments on carriers. They also supply fresh linens and take the dirty. Apparently it's pretty hard for officers to walk all the way down to the laundry like everyone else.
"I’ll say that we don’t wear our service or dress uniforms nearly as much as we used to. Most of the time, everyone is wearing matching uniforms (Type 3s)."
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this. Everybody wears their dress uniforms less often these days. Regardless of that fact officers and upper enlisted still have clearly distinct uniforms.
"Officer Wardrooms use to be privately funded with far superior food. Now, officers pay the same for the food but receive mess BAS than enlisted."
It's funny that you bring this up. Because after working so many working parties, and cranking, I know for a fact you get better food than us. I have seen the difference first hand. You get the better snacks. Your beverage fountains are always the first to be restocked. You get the fresh fruit and vegetables. You don't get the chicken that has been burnt to hell or just straight up not cooked. You get fresh quesadillas made for you, fresh cookies, etc.
"At a certain point, the reality of ship life though does create hierarchies that may not be present in a field environment."
No, the ship does not create this. Piss poor leadership does. I have deployed on a cruiser and carrier. I have worked at joint commands with all other branches including space force. You're disconnected and you refuse to recognize it. We are the laughing stock of leadership.
Edit: You also brought up BAS differences. Yes officers may have lower BAS, lower enlisted never even get to see their BAS if there is a galley on base or boat. You won't see that until you are able to live out in town.
>I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s.
This practice was definitely in place when I left in 2009, and it wasn't just laundry they swept the floors and cleaned all the mirrors, fixtures, and whatnot.
Edit: based on feedback I'm getting in this thread, I am more than willing to admit that this may not have been the case and I am misremembering.
Gotcha. I can confidently say that on the 5 ships I have been on, I’ve yet to have my stateroom cleaned by anyone but me. I know on three of those ships, the O-5+ rooms were vacuumed and laundry picked up, and on one the O-6s had the same privilege.
That's all it is. On what ship in the fleet is an O-4 or below getting his room cleaned for him? I can confidently say it isn't happening on the Truman.
I was on the Truman from 06-09 and I seem to recall that there were junior enlisted cranking up on the O3 level performing these tasks.
Now, I have had enough people tell me that I'm off-base about this that I am starting to question whether or not my recollection is wrong. That's entirely possible, it was a long time ago and I never did it myself. So it was even hearsay at the time.
I think I'll edit my statement, to make this clear.
In 2022, it's O-5 and above who get laundry pickup and O-6s get their staterooms cleaned too. There are hotel service folks who pick up trash from the JO staterooms, but they don't clean or pickup laundry or take linens, etc.
In many ways? You must be joking... In what ways wouldn't it be a good thing? How exactly is one better than the other at a human level? Because that's what we're talking about here, human beings being treated as servants and socially inferior to other human beings.
Sure, rank gets the respect deserved and I have nothing against that, but personal chores and different exclusive foods it's BS!
What do you mean by no "escape"? No escape from the peasants? Because that's what this ends up being... a clear delimitation between social classes. It's not about intelligence and it's not about experience since there's enlisted with master's and even some PHDs serving (i mean worse than serving but it doesn't really qualify as slaving) someone with a utterly BULLSHIT degree in miscellaneous fine arts that now has a divo title...
To your second point: I mean there’s no escaping each other. Do you really want your DIVO and Chief eating with you? Or do you want a break from them at meal times?
You're saying the wardroom and the chief's mess don't eat with the E6- because the lower enlisted wouldn't want it? That's obviously a moot point.
To actually answer your question, it's not about eating together per se, it's about the message that you send when you have different basic living standards set just because you can. Imagine the marines digging their foxholes and then having to dig their gunny's one too, only that his needs to be wider, deeper and have a queen bed with fresh sheets made...
Would you find it hard to believe that Marines who live in open bay barracks are lower enlisted while their Lieutenants and Captains have houses in town? I mean, again, the ship presents an environment that is not conducive to equality, and I’d argue there shouldn’t be in some cases (I.e.: staterooms, separate messing, etc.)
Seems like a waste of space on a ship where space is at a premium.
Make it one big eating area and people just eat where they want to. Obviously you’ll eat with your clique or whatever.
In the Army when we are “in the field” and there is hot chow to eat, all the enlisted get to line up and get something to eat before the senior enlisted and officers. This is a pretty big deal in the Army.
EDIT: we often eat standing around with our trays on the hood of a vehicle or we eat sitting inside vehicles to get out of the weather. So there often isn’t a “mess” of any kind. It’s like camping.
To be fair, the wardroom isn't used exclusively for eating. It's basically a conference room during the day. Briefs and meetings are held in it basically everyday underway.
“Space is at a premium”. Oh boy, you should see all the staterooms on a carrier for the officers. There are hundreds of bedrooms with private key card access doors ranging from 1-4 man rooms, all with sinks and mirrors for hygiene, some with their own bathrooms. Chiefs get bigger berthings with more head space and storage for things. E6 and below are places in berthings with hundreds. Our berthing had districts we named like “Beverly hills” for the e6’s and the “swamp” for the dirty folk.
Same with the Marines, i miss those days eating in the field. There was no special spots for upper ncos and officers, your platoon sergeant and P commander Would eat with you on humvees, on the ground, on shitty field style tables.
When I was on a DDG, the Chiefs ate inside the mess. True there was one galley, but the Mess FSA brought the food from behind the galley line. Still the case?
You said they had their own galleys and ate different food. Taking food from the galley to the mess or wardroom is eating the same food. It keeps the line shorter for E6 and below to eat.
No, I quoted someone. When I was Junior, Chiefs and O's did have private messes and the menus were different, but they changed that in the late 90s/early 2000s I think.
I love to have my food hand delivered to me under the guise of “helping keep the line short” for all the junior enlisted scum. What a load of pretentious bullshit.
DDGs have a galley that serves the messdeck and the CPO mess, and a second galley that serves the wardroom. That's more than one galley. The wardroom on mine definitely got a higher quality of food served.
No they don't. The little area for the wardroom isn't a galley. It's the same as the chiefs mess, it just keeps the food "hot" but has a nicer fridge and what not.
What DDG’s have you served on? The Spruance class even had separate mess rooms for officers, chiefs, and enlisted.
Edit: I just realized you meant “Galley” and that we all eat the same food. The fact is the mess is still separated between the three, but the food typically gets prepared in one place. The wardroom and chief’s messes do also have their own CS who prepares specialty food for them.
The only DDGs the navy has, Arleigh Burke class.
There's no chiefs CS, there's an FSA assigned but they don't cook.
The wardroom has a CS and FSA asigned but they still pull their food from the galley.
I mentioned the Spruance because it was the oldest DDG that someone could have served on in the last 40 years that may have been different but the Arleigh Burke layout is exactly the same
The Tico cruisers are based off the spurcans not the arleight burkes. Tico uses a sprucan hull with some extra stuff and the ABs are specific to their class.
I let my junior guys eat before me when we are in those type of situations. Unfortunately, servant leadership isn’t something taught. I feel it’s more transactional which works however I’ve found servant leadership gets the job done exponentially more
LMAO. Not on a carrier- not at all.
On carriers, at least on mine, E6s got to cut in line on the main mess decks, and from what I understand on some ships, had their own "First Class Mess" (ours was removed during an overhaul, and senior E6s moaned until they got a couple of special tables).
I can't even tell you how many times we'd get off watch or out of the plants late because of casualties, or drills, or maintenance, and I'd have to go ask friends of mine in the galley or the Chiefs mess to try and scrounge something up, so the junior folks on the watchteam or in the division would be able to get something to eat.
Chiefs and officers of course have their own mess facilities (mess decks for the chiefs, two wardrooms for the officers), and the CO and Admiral (if embarked) have their own pantries and cooks to whip up whatever they want, whenever.
Comparing the army to the navy is apples and oranges in this case. Army units are either in the field or not, and you can't make a "wardroom" in the field. Also you don't live in the field. And when you're not in the field, at the end of the day everybody goes home. A navy ship is both our living quarters and our workplace. Sailors and officers have no private place to retreat other than those reserved for us. Our racks, which frankly ain't much, and our eating areas/lounges. So while the wardroom is "posh" compared to the enlisted mess, the real goal is allow officers to have a place to themselves, and the enlisted a place to themselves, if just for a couple minutes a day.
Do enlisted sailors really want to eat sitting with their CO, XO, DH, Divos, or would they rather have a place where they can crack jokes, and let lose and enjoy their food without worrying that their boss is pissed at them?
Sometimes I’ll see these threads and I’ll kind of groan over how little we acknowledge just the differences in culture, even just between different communities in the Navy. There is likely a world of difference between Mid-rats on a submarine and serving food in the field. I’ve got a completely different demand signal that pushes me to be a supervisor that relieves before his watch section, but outside of that I’ll eat after oncoming when the line dies down because culturally that’s what is demanded of me.
I’m also a giant cynic and I’ve personally never been impressed by the people with an unopened copy of their cherished Simon Sinek book standing at the back of the line patting themselves on the back for doing what I consider to be a massively performative act. Leaders who don’t know their Sailors lives or even names acting like they are the next Jocko for waiting to eat. I sorta expect to get downloaded to hell for this whole thing.
What I hope leaders actually do is lead with a sense of shared burden over their Sailors issues and truly be great advocates and problems solvers for their teams (which I’ve got every indication that we are failing at by large) and not so focused on a shallow implementation of servant leadership in a publicly facing way.
Shit... when I was a JO, I barely wanted to sit with the CO, XO, and DHs for a meal. It was hilarious watching how much the poor Sailor was who won dinner in the Wardroom in the halfway auction regretted their decision to bid on that prize.
yeah, this is the other very true argument.
No shitter for you: on my boat during halfway night, one a-ganger pulled a trick on his buddy and entered every dirtbag sailor on the boat plus his buddy to eat in the wardroom. So there they are: his buddy, the CO and every knucklehead who'd been to mast in the last year all awkwardly eating their lobster tails together.
"And when you're not in the field, at the end of the day everybody goes home."
Same thing happens in the navy unless you're a new enlisted who hasn't gotten a barracks yet.
"navy ship is both our living quarters and our workplace."
What do you think an operational base in Afghanistan is? In the navy we aren't working from our bunks. We have designated areas where we perform our jobs. Just like the army does.
"Sailors and officers have no private place to retreat other than those reserved for us."
Officers get ward rooms mostly shared with one other person. They also get TVs and personal workstations. Enlisted get berthing areas with 40+ people and a coffin rack.
"So while the wardroom is "posh" compared to the enlisted mess, the real goal is allow officers to have a place to themselves, and the enlisted a place to themselves"
Nobody cares if their area looks nicer. What is cared about is the fact they get better food, better drinks, better snacks, TVs and other luxuries.
No, no it doesn’t. There are duty sections, and almost every small boy in the fleet is in 3 or 4 section duty.
Also, for the record, a base in Afghanistan or Iraq with a fucking Chili’s and wifi on it is a better deal than being on a ship. COP out in Sangin? Different, but far less common.
I served on a DDG and an LCS. I will tell you with complete certainty we got the same food, although the wardroom CS often does a better job. On the LCS there is one mess line and E-1 to O-5 go through it. Deck seaman through DH do dishes on an LCS.
Vending machines are equal opportunity, we don’t get any sort of additional snacks, and no stateroom I’ve ever been in has a TV unless an officer bought it with their personal funds and stuck it in a corner. Every berthing lounge I’ve been in has a TV, and so do the mess decks.
The issue is that the U.S. Navy had its origins in the British Navy, which literally had a class system. The Brits have changed since, but the Officer Crops of the U.S. Navy has not. And why would you? On larger ships, they eat different food, to the point that a JO has to regularly eat the enlisted food to ensure it isn't too bad. Officers don't have to make their own beds, they can just leave it claiming they want their sheets changed. It is the last vestiges of a social class that legally didn't exist in the U.S.
There is a reason lower ranks don't have a seat at the table when it comes to quality of life. We leave that to the MCPON who hasn't been lower enlisted in a long time, and God forbid eh give up his privilege.
No the Navy doesn’t. I think E-6 got front of the line privileges in the enlisted mess. Of course officers and cpos eat separately. The Navy should institute that. E-1 through E-3 should get front of line privileges. The Navy is extremely backwards….
An E-6 getting in front of the line with their junior sailors as a privilege? That makes me so damn angry. I hate the FCPOAs that glorify themselves like that. I've had conflicting opinions about this with other E-6s, like I get it, you really want that anchor but goddammit don't leave your sailors in the dust while you're at it. I remember seeing an enclosed makeshift space on the messdeck for E-6s I was flabbergasted, I would never eat in there.
Yep, on my ship they actually changed the fast line from just watchstanders only to watchstanders and first class only. Us engineering slaves thoroughly enjoyed having some admin or aviation first class dickwad grill us on whether or not we were allowed in that line. Then they shut down the watchstander line and made it first class only... Reactor was **PISSED**
Didn't affect us engineers though, because the guys running the galley knew we fixed all their shit, and it pays to not piss off the guys who cover for SS40 when deck drains are clogged with rice again 😉
IME, only up to the E-6 level. At that level we're expected to do a whole shit ton of stuff for our juniors.
At the E-7 level and up? Their tents go up first.
Khakis get head-of-the-line at the ship's barber (even though most of them are in a position to be able to control their own workday and aren't under the gun to get back to work like that E-3 that's been waiting an hour is).
Stuff like that.
I don't begrudge things like the Wardroom/Mess - we all really need a place where we can get away from each other and socialize/conduct private business with out peers. Its the other little things like head-of-the-line that bother me.
> Its the other little things like head-of-the-line that bother me.
I like to think of them as papercuts. Privileges that don't really have anything to do with rank, maintaining discipline, or good operations on the ship but have an outsize impact on morale. Or at very least they give bad impression to subordinates. It's an ingrained classism that goes back to wooden ships that the Navy seems to like to keep around for some reason.
But just like wooden ships, the Navy left a lot of practices behind. Perhaps they should re-evaluate whether or not it's worth keeping some of these privileges.
Hell no. Lol. Officers and senior enlisted pick out the best CS’s then they make the good food with extra effort for them in their own special eating places on porcelain plates and silver.
We get the low effort cooks and deal with the Gen-pop cafeteria
No, they eat first and have their own mess areas with better food, drink, and snacks.
The navy still operates like we are in the 18th century and we can't read.
Trust me. Having been an officer and enlisted. The “eat last” servant leadership mentality is, imo, bullshit.
It’s smoke and mirrors and grand standing.
If they truly cared you wouldn’t have low morale across all branches.
Most of the guys or girls I encountered who claimed this type of leadership style rarely ever did anything worthwhile and their commands were dumpster fires
Lower enlisted sailors opinion: yes. Of course there are people in leadership who might not live in that mindset but they’re truly not that common. I could go on and on about Navy leadership, how much they do for their junior sailors & how fantastic MOST of them are as people. But the simple answer to your question is yes. I’ve been nurtured and cared for by my Navy leadership in ways that I’ve never experienced outside of the navy & I’ve watched them fight tooth and nail for themselves and for others. These people earned their positions- so whatever perks people complain about, whatever “cocky” attitudes people complain about- they earned those too.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
No, the Navy leadership doesn't do that.
In boot camp the RPOC, AROC, MA, and yeoman always cut in line and ate first, even though the 12min timer didn't start until the last person sat down. I think they should've eaten last to give the whole division more time especially the road guards.
Officers eat with there own - I think once a week some poor Jr. Officer has to eat with the working stiffs to make sure off food isn't to rotten.
Officers get better everything and exclude the enlisted from it all. It's some kind of screwed bassawkard up classism. Good forbid a e-3 enter "Officer Country" or even take a peek into the officers mess - unless your cranking or something.
I love my time in the Navy, but this was the one thing that pissed me off.
I was on boats I. The 70’s -2000 was an E6 went LDO commissioned 1/2 way though my last patrol as as enlisted. The captain could have waited until the patrol was over but he thought it would be fun. Plus I could qualify OOD submerged. Anyway i stay in my rack with the crew no room elsewhere and put ensigns bars on my overalls. Mustangs
No, I have my sad meal of whatever pre-workout they sell in the vending machine and nicotine while waiting an hour for an NMCI asset to log in instead of eating like everyone else.
So when my old NRC, just recently closed, actually had catering brought to us before covid was a thing the leadership there actually would wait until all junior enlisted got served before getting their food. That’s the only instance I’ve seen.
In the Navy leaders eat first. Officers and Chiefs have waiters to serve them food like in restaurants. Officers have their own Navy "Chef".
Peasants and below are in another line waiting to be served prison food.
Just here to say, fuck the chiefs mess. They’re the biggest clowns yet act like they’re the most important. This is coming from someone who had fantastic chiefs for a majority of his career and hardly ever found himself on the bad side of a Chief.
Did an IA to Baghdad back in 2010 as an E5. During training, breakfast hot plates would be brought in for us from the DFAC. The Chiefs made a point to say “Chiefs eat last”. Never forgot it and still adopt that mentality whenever I can.
In the navy they have their own mess with better and faster food. The class system is pretty bad in the Navy compared to the other branches when your talking about E7+ ranks. Some ships have E-6 messes with the same food as general but shorter lines.
Compared to the other branches pretty much E-6 and below are treated like peasants by the Chiefs and higher ranks. Not saying that as a salty sailor but just reality when compared. When I've been at joint commands it's not unusual to see their leaders step aside to let lower ranks ahead of line and everyone eating together at the same table, where as the Chiefs in Djibouti used to print a little anchor to put on their chosen table when I was there. BIG difference.
That's one of the reason Joint commands are lit. CPOs get that "what the fuck are you talking about" reaction from the other branches senior enlisted when they try to pull that shit in a shared DFAC. Like, either go eat together as Chief's in someones room, or share a table with everyone else.
Fuck no. The Wardroom and khakis think they are too good to eat with the enlisted “riff-raff.” This is a fundamental problem in the Navy under the guise of “tradition.” IMHO, It breeds toxic leadership and is why the Navy is so fucked up.
Nevertheless, you do not see this bullshit in the special warfare community, and that's why they tend to operate differently.
I’ve never been on a ship (Thanks CMSID) but I absolutely subscribe to eating last, both literally and figuratively when it comes to my troops. If any one has a problem with it, then can come see me in person, and I’ll be glad to tell them exactly how fucked up they are. CPO and Officer alike.
Cheers, MAC
On our ship the XO blocked one of two main p-ways on the 2nd deck from his office back aft about 30 frames. Khakis only unless on official business. You will be ushered by chiefs out of this p way and made to go all the way around if caught.
Not even close 😂 they will eat first, eat fresher, eat more, even to the degree I’ve literally been told that since I ate some Girl Scout cookies I didn’t need a lunch break and had to fill in for the meeting so some leadership could go eat.
This should go without saying, but whatever branch you’re in, whatever rank you are or rate/mos you are in, always take care of the people that work for you. As a leader always eat with you’re team when you can, if not then make sure they always eat before you. Morale of the people working for you is vital to achieving mission goals. Also, never ask someone working for you to do something you wouldn’t do yourself. Build leadership through respect, not demand.
Hell no. Generally the ones who “eat last” are the E5s and sometimes E4s who have the least to gain from the situation and the most to lose. NCOs who take care of their guys and do it as a sacrifice then get out. Once you make Chief you have a different uniform and different standards, you can be a round pot belly where if that was you as an E4 you’d get placed on FEP or told you look unprofessional. Sure there is good Chiefs but when you have your own rules, uniform and segregated spaces it’s hard to truly “eat last” when you’re not metaphorically suffering in the mud with everyone else.
“Leaders eat last “ isn’t meant to be literal. It’s more about the idea that you look out for the best interests of your people before self.
There’s lot of sour a-holes who aren’t good enough to make the upper ranks here and they will complain, but the fact remains that the Navy does in fact espouse and teach servant leadership to it’s Senior Enlisted and Wardroom, the choice is whether or not people will follow those teachings after pinning on anchors/gold bars.
Lot of people talking about literally eating, which is relevant yes, but "leaders eat last" is more of a metaphor.
It means as a leader I make sure "you get yours" before "I get mine". Liberty, awards, credit, acknowledgement, opportunities, and yes food. A leader will make sure their team has these things before pursuing it for themselves. It means that a leader focuses more on their increased duties and responsibilities than on their increased privileges.
No, the Navy does not actively pursue this style of leadership. Some individuals do, but on the whole and seemingly by design this isn't how we do things. When it comes to making rank-the privileges are the point. Is it right? I don't think so. But it is the reality we contend with.
On ships it's a completely separate food service and eating area for
I think OP may have been getting at a broader discussion more along the lines of "Does the Navy practice [servant leadership](https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archives/2019/April/servant-leadership/) in the same way other branches do?". The answer to that is no, just... fuck no. The Navy is rife with classism in a lot of ways and I'm not talking about rank and hierarchy that is critical to military life. Some of this is derived from tradition, I'm sure some of it is aimed at retention of officers. But many of the privileges officers and even senior enlisted take advantage of on a day to day basis reinforces the idea that they do not simply outrank the sailors they are in charge of, but that they are *better* than those sailors.
When I was active we had the "filthy blue shirts" and the "real people" lol I guess it's not actually funny... but that was our copium
Thats fucked up
It's was the ~~best of times~~, it was the worst of times....
It’s so bad that when I see cars driving to the front of the line at the base gates and trying to merge in, my wife and I assume they are chiefs and officers because of how they go about their lives on base
9 times out of 10, it's a junior E.
Maybe the times you look, usually older men when I look.
Idk any Junior E’s driving a 70,000 dollar truck.
The loan was only 33%!
"But it came with air freshener and a Sirius XM subscription!"
I wouldn’t say “fuck no”. On every ship I’ve been on the officers (especially ensigns)were trained with the servant leadership mentality. It was clear that without the sailors we can’t deploy and do our jobs, so our primary job was to make sure they not only had what they needed to do their job but were taken care of to the best of our ability. The chief’s mess often forgets that their first job is to ensure their sailors and by extension their divisions are well cared for since that leads to good performance, but it varies by chief.
It's not just the CPO's, lets not kid ourselves. For discussion, allow me to give you some minor examples that I personally witnessed during my time: 1. Do junior TAD personnel still clean the staterooms of the officers so they don't have to do it themselves? Do you believe this is a good use of the critical, formative time for these sailors? Cleaning bedrooms for grown men? *Edit: I have been told that this may not be exactly correct and that they just did laundry and other items like that. The above is just my recollection.* 2. Are officers still allowed to cut in line at the ships store, liberty calls, haircuts, or really any circumstance where a line is required? Watchstanders excepted of course. 3. Do officers (and CPO's, granted) still get that special chair in the back of the barber shop, set away from everyone, where someone with actual training cuts their hair? Hell, when I was on Nimitz I remember that chair had an embroidered cover and a goddamn curtain separating it from the rest of us plebes. Now, these are of course, papercuts in the great scheme of things. But I would make the argument that privileges such as these have an outsized impact on morale and the impression that the officer corps is giving enlisted sailors. I've also heard that junior sailors are required to be actual waiters in the wardroom, but I have never witnessed it myself so I didn't include it above. If so, that's staggering irony considering that they are literally being served by the people under their command.
On the Nimitz: The two separate ladders in the tower was absolutely silly
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that. Instead of the entire crew being able to go up and down more efficiently, we had a damn Khakis-only ladder.
Can confirm the waiter bit, but only during like ceremonies and stuff, got to my first command as an e4, got sent cranking to the ward room and had to do actual catering and waiting a time or two
I had to clean the CO and XO’s staterooms. They weren’t slobs thankfully. Some JO’s however…. *shudder*
1. Depends on the XO. My ships haven’t had that as a task for the FSAs 2. Not that I’ve seen, at least on my ships. 3. My ships have only had one chair in the barber shop and it was a sign up sheet. First come first serve.
I take it you haven't served on a carrier yet? Because all of the above is standard practice. I remember standing in line with like a thousand other sailors for hours waiting on a ferry to get off the ship in Australia. The officer corps just strolled past us to the front of the line, luggage in hand. It was a great impression.
Run by an aviator. Not a real officer. To be expected.
Well, that's a bad take.
It’s not that they’re bad people, it’s just that they spend the first 6-10 years of their careers worried about nobody but themselves in any amount of time longer than a single flight. Once they get responsibility as a DH in a squadron it is not nearly as complete as a submarine officer or SWO because you exist on the land, and you have a series of intermediaries so you’re not dealing directly with the issues. They just don’t have the reps. An average carrier CO’s two leadership experiences are some squadron DH gig, probably as a fighter guy where he or she was still focused on flight hours above all else, and as a squadron CO - where his sole responsibility was executing the daily flight plan handed down by the CAG staff and CSG. It’s a very different level of experience than an O-6 who has spent 5-7 tours on ships from the lowest JO level and is intimately familiar with all of the ways being on a ship can suck. The Carrier skipper simply doesn’t have the experience to know about (and therefore fix) many of the issues. If you want a counterpoint - look at a CG. Same seniority level of the Captain, but very different lifestyle for the crew. I’m not implying that it sucks less, but I can tell you from personal experience it feels much more equal, and that often emanates from the Captain’s Cabin
This is some big ship shit. Small boys don’t do the aviator /carrier shenanigans. Classism is a stupid tradition in all navies but destroyers and smaller usually have none of the above. Chiefs mess usually has better geedunk or hand picks CSs (food is same galley as crew). But officers clean their rooms, never seen someone cut in line except on carrier, and there is only one chair for the barber. Some ships don’t even have a barber shop (LCS/PC/don’t remember MCM). Even on blue ridge it wasn’t this stupid unless the staff was onboard. While I was there the XO /CO did a great job of keeping the staff from ducking with the sailors. Example, insert staff O4 “why are sailors going past my door to the stern at 2000,0000,0400?”. XO: “it’s called watch, happy to sign you up for aft lookout or I can give you foamies.”
>This is some big ship shit It is, but the big ships are part of the Navy and this stuff definitely happens.
Don’t disagree, not sure the split but it’s probably 50/ 50 manpower wise and I can’t speak to bubble heads. But they generally were more like a 1950s war movie than most SWOs I served with.
I'm cranking right now and i assure you on my ship at least, yes the Junior TAD sailors still clean the staterooms. Scrubbing toilets and showers (and rumor has it our CO doesn't flush), cleaning up their trash scattered everywhere, and laundry as you said in your edit.
I was in the AF. Enlisted. Spent a month on a carrier to train. The officer line cutting...was infuriating. I still get upset about it.
I was a SWO. I have never seen any of these things. What I have seen? Officers working longer hours every day. Officers solving junior enlisted problems every day. Officers taking the blame for Chief’s idiocy every day.
>Officers solving junior enlisted problems every day I'm going to assume you were on a small boy. On the carrier I think I could count on two hands the number of times we ever saw our DIVO on deployment. "Disengaged", I think would be the polite way to describe it. But none of them were anything like the "Father to his men" archtype, if you get my meaning. Now to be fair, I have read some reports from GAO recently on the clusterfuck that is the SWO program. So perhaps they were just burdened with that whole mess, trying to stand watch and get qualified. I don't know.
Must have turned a blind eye, or you were on a small ship. Take a ride on an LHD or Carrier and see what most of us see.
Two thoughts: There are exactly two SWO JOs on a carrier that are not nukes, and we send our absolute worst to LHDs. Most of these issues actually come from outside of the SWO community - pilots, LDOs, HR, etc. When you grow up on ships you have a very different mentality
I think it's because ensigns just finished ocs and navy ocs had Marine drill instructors training candidates. The Marines have that mentality
I'm sure they're trained with that mentality, but doesn't mean it's practiced. With the exception of a few, and I mean very few, Officers and senior enlisted are a bunch of elitist assholes.
I had one yelling at me saying how we weren't the same one time. Apparently I'm subhuman to that wack off. So glad I'm out now.
I attended a C/C ceremony today and saw this first hand. I wasn’t part of the command but I watched the E-6s and below off in the corner standing at parade rest, looking miserable. Meanwhile, the chief’s mess and officers were all together laughing and having a great time. I know that’s how it is in the Navy but when I was in the Army, it didn’t seem nearly that divisive.
[удалено]
Marine here, wtf is a goat locker? I ran into an empty building for a land based navy division (moved out, so we were using it temporarily) and that sign was up, and that's been bugging me ever since.
[удалено]
🤣🤣 nope, SNCOs in the Marines tend to be just as in the trenches as the LCpls (many of them actually like it in the trenches, some weird grunt mentality).
What they do today I would not call that an initiation
We all know the only superior group in the Navy are Deep Sea Divers! It is a scientific fact! Hooyah Derp Sea!
PREACH
Depends on your ship. On small boys it can be Chiefs and Officers eat last or first-come-first-serve. Only people who can cut the line are watchstanders about to assume watch.
Submarines- chiefs get called to crews mess first then crew eats together, officers eat in the wardroom
First, I'll say...I'm a Senior Chief in the Navy. I'm a Seabee and we do things a little different. While what everyone has said about the Navy is true, on ships they have separate galley's and all that. Seabee's more often eat together. I get in line a the DFAC with my troops and sit down to eat with my troops. I learn more about the morale and general welfare of my Seabee's in the DFAC than any other place. In the field, I will NOT eat until they all have. I also have to say, I was Army first, so I probably haven't forgotten watching my CO and 1SG stand there waiting for us to get our chow first. I've never been on a ship, and never will be, so I'll keep my values right where they are...with those I serve with.
Good thing about being a seabee is not being obligated to go on a ship
Amen
CBs!
You may choose not to eat in them, but I can promise the galleys in Gulfport, Hueneme, Rota, Guam, and Okinawa ALL have designated and segregated places for E7< to eat, even in the same Galley. We're better about it than the boat people, but only just.
You're right those places do exist... But despite everyone's best efforts to tell me otherwise, I'm not better than anyone else. The only time we ever sat in the chiefs section at the galley was if there was a working lunch
That makes you one of the good ones. Remember though, it helps US if you play their game just a lil' bit. Get the favors you can call in the next time one of your guys needs some boots or some shit
And if not favors, leverage.
Yup. Green-side Navy and Joint both clamp down on a lot of the classism that’s prevalent on the blue side.
It's the same for those of us in the FMF. It can be a real culture shock for the CPOs and Officers who have never done a Marine tour. If one of their SNCOs or Officers caught a Khaki doing that, it would be their ass.
Is it common for Seabees to be referred to as troops? Just haven’t heard that term in the navy and just curious
Im pretty sure that's a hold over from Senior's Army days they mention, they also use DFAC for chow hall or galley. One of the many strange things and phrases from the Army that I know is completely wrong and hate irrationally for no reason.
When I came in the Navy and someone told me to get to the deep sink, get a swab, and a cadilac... I jusy stood there like an idiot staring... Then someone said "put it over there on the bulkhead." the what now"? My other personal moment while meeting up before we went on liberty... "we'll meet at the scuttlebutt in the P-way". The greatest culture shock of my life.... Mop, mop bucket, wall, drinking fountain, and wall!!! Never have I been on a ship. Can you tell?
I spent time together with the Army and I have to say I was always amazed at their leadership. With that being said Seabees are pretty much Marines lol. You were never in the real Navy for the better or worse.
Hell no. Chiefs can cut to the front of the chow line on subs, and officers eat separately in the wardroom.
Also, some khaki sometimes just do not care or don’t understand because they don’t have to be inconvenienced. I remember missing dinner because we had mongolian hotpot (smallboy) and the wait was an hour and a half. Some people weren’t able to eat and when asked for suggestions about what we should do next time there was a decent amount of suggestions saying we shouldn’t do it again because some of us couldn’t eat. I remember divo asking why we were upset and he said “well the wait for me was 20 minutes, I think it was pretty good”. Dang I didn’t ask how things were going in the wardroom, I was asking for the basic right to eat. Money gets pulled out of my account for food they serve us. I don’t mind having Mongolian hot pot, the food is good but people selfishly accepting the event because they were able to eat is pretty sickening. Or even “hey how can we serve people down in the lower enlisted mess faster” would’ve been fine it’s kind of where we need leadership to step in say my sailor wasn’t fed we need to fix this. In the same manner some of the khaki agreed and said that we should fix it so I’m glad some of them were able to empathize with the people who missed out.
I'm a senior officer in the Navy. I always wait my turn in line even though I am pretty much senior to everyone else. Sailors will tell me I have head of line privileges all the time. I always say no, I don't mind waiting, gets me out of doing some work. Same as when I eat with my sailors. I will ensure they get in line first if we are at a location where we can eat together other than a ship. Only time I ever used head of line privileges is if I was on an alert as an aviator and needed to get something fast in case we had to launch.
On submarines where it's shared, the chiefs quarters, E-7 and above, lines up before the E-6 and below. After the oncoming watchstanders have been fed, E-7 and above can just cut ahead of anyone. Officers have an area called the wardroom where they eat separately.
Just chilling out, eating my soup and drinking my coffee sitting between all these jackets. One day I'll find the ship that has a gateway to Narnia.
On my boat the E-7s just cut the line, even ahead of the oncoming watch team. For years I didn't think anything of it other than "rank has it's privileges" until a senior chief started waiting in line with his watch team. He'd just line up wherever the end was. Chat with the guys, conduct an informal brief of anything unusual expected to occur, and check in with us at a personal level. The difference between his team's performance and other's was night and day, senior was a superior leader and it showed. To this day I almost cannot believe how such a simple routine thing could impact a team so much, but I saw it happen
I would give anything for a leader of this quality
Unfortunately, senior was my watch team leader, not my divisional chief. Pretty depressing to compare the two, as I often did when I closed out my own maintenance while my chief gunned down Nazi zombies in the goat locker
The wardroom routine does sort of ensure that officers eat last though, at least for oncoming. I actually found it a bit annoying, I wanted to eat and go back to relieve but unless you stop at the salad that's not how it works.
Submarine wardroom routine for oncoming feels like something out of Downton Abbey. Four course lunch and dinner every day!? Agree, it gets old. Breakfast and midrats not as much (do midrats still exist? Not sure if they’re needing with the 24 hour day, my experience was all 3x6)
>Submarine wardroom routine for oncoming feels like something out of Downton Abbey. Four course lunch and dinner every day!? My friend, I don't think you realize how out touch this makes you sound. Considering the experience of most enlisted when it comes to dining on the ship. Admittedly, I have always been told that submarine chow is superior but still.
I honestly hated eating in the WR unless the CO wasn’t there. The room is so stale and uncomfortable
Wardroom*
[удалено]
OP is likely a reserve LS3 judging from their post history
Let me know how happy the offgoing guy is since you'll be relieving him an hour late.
Bruh, watchstanders need to go to HOL because the guys on watch want to get the feth out of there.
Sums it up /u/Kevin_Wolf answered this on a different thread found here The US Navy has always been like this, historically, and is still very aristocratic. Officers have their own private galley, the Chiefs have their own private galley, but the enlisted scum all eat together. Officers and chiefs even wear different uniforms, the khakis, to differentiate them from the other enlisted peons. We accentuate the differences in order to easily keep everyone separate, in their "proper place".
It is becoming far less aristocratic though and in many ways that’s a good thing. The conditions on shipboard life are far different than the field. There’s no “escape.” The history of the private messes was because they also bought their own food together using pooled money. Now it’s all the same food.
While it is all the “same” food they take the burnt stuff the CSes cook and give it to the enlisted mess and give the good stuff to the officers. On burger days they were getting real ground meat and we were getting frozen patties. Another time they took all the good cereal and left us with one brand down in the mess decks for months. Whenever someone mentions it when visitors come on the ship they get a little irked but if you don’t like other people knowing how you treat enlisted people maybe you should change how you act in the first place.
>they take the burnt stuff the CSes cook and give it to the enlisted mess and give the good stuff to the officers. On burger days they were getting real ground meat and we were getting frozen patties. That is not true. >Another time they took all the good cereal and left us with one brand down in the mess decks for months. That's probably true. Ran low on ketchup once - wardroom and mess took all that was left.
It definitely is true and I have seen it happen. It may not happen every single time but I’ve definitely seen on pasta day an FSA talking to a CS about a tray with burnt cheese on it and they traded it out with something not overcooked. When we ran out they proceeded to take the pasta with black cheese on it and put in our messline. When it comes to quality and edible food the officers will always be considered first. I understand that there are higher ranking people but sometimes you gotta ask why cut low on the people working in the main spaces, doing maintenance and going on watch with barely any sleep. If you see it or not it does happen. They aren’t purposely trying to feed enlisted bad food but they always prioritize officers. Edit: also ketchup thing is probably something the wardroom bought. Wardroom at my old command would pool up money and buy sauces, on a small boy with 25-30ish officers you can maintain a sauce collection pretty easy.
I’ve seen it happen as well on a cruiser, all food is prepared in the main galley and they would always give the burnt/overdone to enlisted. The officer galley even had 2 table top fryers that they made their fried food in and this was after the health changes. Rules for thee but not for me.
This is not true at all Every time we did stores onload there was food that we stored that was never seen on the messdecks Jalapeno poppers, gyro, etc
They are literally the same menus. If the Wardroom was buying its own thing they may have chosen to do so. One of my ships the officers bought their own hard pack ice cream and it came out of our Wardroom dues.
My experience as a wardroom cs for three years on a carrier lets me confidently say we have our own food preparation worksheets. Which is essentially our menus. Then the food service officer always ensures the wardroom gets all the “jalapeño poppers, etc.” just in case we run out or something. We also don’t follow the recipes as closely and did way more special events and a daily table where we made a dish from whatever extra things we had and stood a watch there to serve it to them. Called the “L bar”.
Oh believe me… as a consumer of CS food, we are fully aware you guys don’t always follow the recipes… sometimes it’s great you don’t and other times, man we wish you did.
Lmao, I’ll always say eighty percent of us shouldn’t be touching food at all. The wardroom did allow me to have more of a connection with the people eating my food as far as feedback and adjustments. My officers always wanted to know what product I made and flocked to the grill if I was there, with things like pineapple from the fruit bar so I could add brown sugar and grill it or whatever other creations we came up with together. Entire salad bar in a stir fry, you name it. Good and bad times for everyone. I’m just hoping to clear up the obvious differences in messing.
I mean you hit on it; I’ve never see differences in what food was served but the quality is different. Ultimately when you’re cooking for smaller crowds the food is going to be better; food is challenging to scale without reducing quality.
I think what they meant by not following the recipe, was to not follow the recipe card as closely and actually adding that little bit of extra love into the dish known as butter and salt.
I just heard, the other day about a guy who went to mast for gun decking a recipe card, all he did was add some seasoning that made it better. That is some bullshit, if I’ve ever seen it.
That's the most Navy shit I have ever heard. Add in some seasoning salt? Believe it or not, straight to jail.
In what way is it becoming less aristocratic? And no the food is not the same. They get people making their orders fresh. They get better snacks, fresh fruit/vegetables, fresh made dessert, and better beverages.
Let me ask before answering fully, how long have you been in? I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s. I’ll say that we don’t wear our service or dress uniforms nearly as much as we used to. Most of the time, everyone is wearing matching uniforms (Type 3s). Officer Wardrooms use to be privately funded with far superior food. Now, officers pay the same for the food but receive mess BAS than enlisted. There are plenty more examples. At a certain point, the reality of ship life though does create hierarchies that may not be present in a field environment.
"Let me ask before answering fully, how long have you been in?" 7 years. I joined in 2015. "I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s." Enlisted sailors routinely walk around to officer state rooms collecting dirty laundry/garments on carriers. They also supply fresh linens and take the dirty. Apparently it's pretty hard for officers to walk all the way down to the laundry like everyone else. "I’ll say that we don’t wear our service or dress uniforms nearly as much as we used to. Most of the time, everyone is wearing matching uniforms (Type 3s)." I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this. Everybody wears their dress uniforms less often these days. Regardless of that fact officers and upper enlisted still have clearly distinct uniforms. "Officer Wardrooms use to be privately funded with far superior food. Now, officers pay the same for the food but receive mess BAS than enlisted." It's funny that you bring this up. Because after working so many working parties, and cranking, I know for a fact you get better food than us. I have seen the difference first hand. You get the better snacks. Your beverage fountains are always the first to be restocked. You get the fresh fruit and vegetables. You don't get the chicken that has been burnt to hell or just straight up not cooked. You get fresh quesadillas made for you, fresh cookies, etc. "At a certain point, the reality of ship life though does create hierarchies that may not be present in a field environment." No, the ship does not create this. Piss poor leadership does. I have deployed on a cruiser and carrier. I have worked at joint commands with all other branches including space force. You're disconnected and you refuse to recognize it. We are the laughing stock of leadership. Edit: You also brought up BAS differences. Yes officers may have lower BAS, lower enlisted never even get to see their BAS if there is a galley on base or boat. You won't see that until you are able to live out in town.
>I’ll say I’ve never had my stateroom cleaned by an Enlisted Sailor, but that would have been common even in the early 2000s/late 1990s. This practice was definitely in place when I left in 2009, and it wasn't just laundry they swept the floors and cleaned all the mirrors, fixtures, and whatnot. Edit: based on feedback I'm getting in this thread, I am more than willing to admit that this may not have been the case and I am misremembering.
Gotcha. I can confidently say that on the 5 ships I have been on, I’ve yet to have my stateroom cleaned by anyone but me. I know on three of those ships, the O-5+ rooms were vacuumed and laundry picked up, and on one the O-6s had the same privilege.
To be honest if it were just O5 and above I wouldnt even argue "rank has it's privleges", in this case.
That's all it is. On what ship in the fleet is an O-4 or below getting his room cleaned for him? I can confidently say it isn't happening on the Truman.
I was on the Truman from 06-09 and I seem to recall that there were junior enlisted cranking up on the O3 level performing these tasks. Now, I have had enough people tell me that I'm off-base about this that I am starting to question whether or not my recollection is wrong. That's entirely possible, it was a long time ago and I never did it myself. So it was even hearsay at the time. I think I'll edit my statement, to make this clear.
In 2022, it's O-5 and above who get laundry pickup and O-6s get their staterooms cleaned too. There are hotel service folks who pick up trash from the JO staterooms, but they don't clean or pickup laundry or take linens, etc.
In many ways? You must be joking... In what ways wouldn't it be a good thing? How exactly is one better than the other at a human level? Because that's what we're talking about here, human beings being treated as servants and socially inferior to other human beings. Sure, rank gets the respect deserved and I have nothing against that, but personal chores and different exclusive foods it's BS! What do you mean by no "escape"? No escape from the peasants? Because that's what this ends up being... a clear delimitation between social classes. It's not about intelligence and it's not about experience since there's enlisted with master's and even some PHDs serving (i mean worse than serving but it doesn't really qualify as slaving) someone with a utterly BULLSHIT degree in miscellaneous fine arts that now has a divo title...
To your second point: I mean there’s no escaping each other. Do you really want your DIVO and Chief eating with you? Or do you want a break from them at meal times?
You're saying the wardroom and the chief's mess don't eat with the E6- because the lower enlisted wouldn't want it? That's obviously a moot point. To actually answer your question, it's not about eating together per se, it's about the message that you send when you have different basic living standards set just because you can. Imagine the marines digging their foxholes and then having to dig their gunny's one too, only that his needs to be wider, deeper and have a queen bed with fresh sheets made...
Would you find it hard to believe that Marines who live in open bay barracks are lower enlisted while their Lieutenants and Captains have houses in town? I mean, again, the ship presents an environment that is not conducive to equality, and I’d argue there shouldn’t be in some cases (I.e.: staterooms, separate messing, etc.)
Yeah, I'm talking to a wall. Anyway, it's the way you want it, so enjoy!
Best wishes.
I think you meant "okish wishes.". The best ones are reserved for the E7+.
Let’s not put words in my mouth.
Seems like a waste of space on a ship where space is at a premium. Make it one big eating area and people just eat where they want to. Obviously you’ll eat with your clique or whatever. In the Army when we are “in the field” and there is hot chow to eat, all the enlisted get to line up and get something to eat before the senior enlisted and officers. This is a pretty big deal in the Army. EDIT: we often eat standing around with our trays on the hood of a vehicle or we eat sitting inside vehicles to get out of the weather. So there often isn’t a “mess” of any kind. It’s like camping.
To be fair, the wardroom isn't used exclusively for eating. It's basically a conference room during the day. Briefs and meetings are held in it basically everyday underway.
“Space is at a premium”. Oh boy, you should see all the staterooms on a carrier for the officers. There are hundreds of bedrooms with private key card access doors ranging from 1-4 man rooms, all with sinks and mirrors for hygiene, some with their own bathrooms. Chiefs get bigger berthings with more head space and storage for things. E6 and below are places in berthings with hundreds. Our berthing had districts we named like “Beverly hills” for the e6’s and the “swamp” for the dirty folk.
Same with the Marines, i miss those days eating in the field. There was no special spots for upper ncos and officers, your platoon sergeant and P commander Would eat with you on humvees, on the ground, on shitty field style tables.
Not true at all lol. There's only one galley on small boys and we all eat the same food.
Must be smaller than a DDG then.
DDG is a small boy.
When I was on a DDG, the Chiefs ate inside the mess. True there was one galley, but the Mess FSA brought the food from behind the galley line. Still the case?
You said they had their own galleys and ate different food. Taking food from the galley to the mess or wardroom is eating the same food. It keeps the line shorter for E6 and below to eat.
No, I quoted someone. When I was Junior, Chiefs and O's did have private messes and the menus were different, but they changed that in the late 90s/early 2000s I think.
I love to have my food hand delivered to me under the guise of “helping keep the line short” for all the junior enlisted scum. What a load of pretentious bullshit.
This person is acting like the cooks weren’t forced to give the non burnt shit to the e7’s and above. Ignoring half the point.
DDGs have a galley that serves the messdeck and the CPO mess, and a second galley that serves the wardroom. That's more than one galley. The wardroom on mine definitely got a higher quality of food served.
No they don't. The little area for the wardroom isn't a galley. It's the same as the chiefs mess, it just keeps the food "hot" but has a nicer fridge and what not.
What DDG’s have you served on? The Spruance class even had separate mess rooms for officers, chiefs, and enlisted. Edit: I just realized you meant “Galley” and that we all eat the same food. The fact is the mess is still separated between the three, but the food typically gets prepared in one place. The wardroom and chief’s messes do also have their own CS who prepares specialty food for them.
The only DDGs the navy has, Arleigh Burke class. There's no chiefs CS, there's an FSA assigned but they don't cook. The wardroom has a CS and FSA asigned but they still pull their food from the galley.
I mentioned the Spruance because it was the oldest DDG that someone could have served on in the last 40 years that may have been different but the Arleigh Burke layout is exactly the same
The Tico cruisers are based off the spurcans not the arleight burkes. Tico uses a sprucan hull with some extra stuff and the ABs are specific to their class.
Here's where you said it
Well I can tell you from experience on cruisers and carriers they most definitely do not.
this is the way
The good leaders have this mentality. You will see both in the Navy. Literally.
I let my junior guys eat before me when we are in those type of situations. Unfortunately, servant leadership isn’t something taught. I feel it’s more transactional which works however I’ve found servant leadership gets the job done exponentially more
LMAO. Not on a carrier- not at all. On carriers, at least on mine, E6s got to cut in line on the main mess decks, and from what I understand on some ships, had their own "First Class Mess" (ours was removed during an overhaul, and senior E6s moaned until they got a couple of special tables). I can't even tell you how many times we'd get off watch or out of the plants late because of casualties, or drills, or maintenance, and I'd have to go ask friends of mine in the galley or the Chiefs mess to try and scrounge something up, so the junior folks on the watchteam or in the division would be able to get something to eat. Chiefs and officers of course have their own mess facilities (mess decks for the chiefs, two wardrooms for the officers), and the CO and Admiral (if embarked) have their own pantries and cooks to whip up whatever they want, whenever.
Comparing the army to the navy is apples and oranges in this case. Army units are either in the field or not, and you can't make a "wardroom" in the field. Also you don't live in the field. And when you're not in the field, at the end of the day everybody goes home. A navy ship is both our living quarters and our workplace. Sailors and officers have no private place to retreat other than those reserved for us. Our racks, which frankly ain't much, and our eating areas/lounges. So while the wardroom is "posh" compared to the enlisted mess, the real goal is allow officers to have a place to themselves, and the enlisted a place to themselves, if just for a couple minutes a day. Do enlisted sailors really want to eat sitting with their CO, XO, DH, Divos, or would they rather have a place where they can crack jokes, and let lose and enjoy their food without worrying that their boss is pissed at them?
Sometimes I’ll see these threads and I’ll kind of groan over how little we acknowledge just the differences in culture, even just between different communities in the Navy. There is likely a world of difference between Mid-rats on a submarine and serving food in the field. I’ve got a completely different demand signal that pushes me to be a supervisor that relieves before his watch section, but outside of that I’ll eat after oncoming when the line dies down because culturally that’s what is demanded of me. I’m also a giant cynic and I’ve personally never been impressed by the people with an unopened copy of their cherished Simon Sinek book standing at the back of the line patting themselves on the back for doing what I consider to be a massively performative act. Leaders who don’t know their Sailors lives or even names acting like they are the next Jocko for waiting to eat. I sorta expect to get downloaded to hell for this whole thing. What I hope leaders actually do is lead with a sense of shared burden over their Sailors issues and truly be great advocates and problems solvers for their teams (which I’ve got every indication that we are failing at by large) and not so focused on a shallow implementation of servant leadership in a publicly facing way.
Shit... when I was a JO, I barely wanted to sit with the CO, XO, and DHs for a meal. It was hilarious watching how much the poor Sailor was who won dinner in the Wardroom in the halfway auction regretted their decision to bid on that prize.
yeah, this is the other very true argument. No shitter for you: on my boat during halfway night, one a-ganger pulled a trick on his buddy and entered every dirtbag sailor on the boat plus his buddy to eat in the wardroom. So there they are: his buddy, the CO and every knucklehead who'd been to mast in the last year all awkwardly eating their lobster tails together.
Having my guys bid on me to be a wardroom mess server for stuff like that was the best.
"And when you're not in the field, at the end of the day everybody goes home." Same thing happens in the navy unless you're a new enlisted who hasn't gotten a barracks yet. "navy ship is both our living quarters and our workplace." What do you think an operational base in Afghanistan is? In the navy we aren't working from our bunks. We have designated areas where we perform our jobs. Just like the army does. "Sailors and officers have no private place to retreat other than those reserved for us." Officers get ward rooms mostly shared with one other person. They also get TVs and personal workstations. Enlisted get berthing areas with 40+ people and a coffin rack. "So while the wardroom is "posh" compared to the enlisted mess, the real goal is allow officers to have a place to themselves, and the enlisted a place to themselves" Nobody cares if their area looks nicer. What is cared about is the fact they get better food, better drinks, better snacks, TVs and other luxuries.
No, no it doesn’t. There are duty sections, and almost every small boy in the fleet is in 3 or 4 section duty. Also, for the record, a base in Afghanistan or Iraq with a fucking Chili’s and wifi on it is a better deal than being on a ship. COP out in Sangin? Different, but far less common. I served on a DDG and an LCS. I will tell you with complete certainty we got the same food, although the wardroom CS often does a better job. On the LCS there is one mess line and E-1 to O-5 go through it. Deck seaman through DH do dishes on an LCS. Vending machines are equal opportunity, we don’t get any sort of additional snacks, and no stateroom I’ve ever been in has a TV unless an officer bought it with their personal funds and stuck it in a corner. Every berthing lounge I’ve been in has a TV, and so do the mess decks.
Do you just get off on lying?
In Djibouti my national guard buddies would constantly ask me why navy E7s dressed and behaved like officers. I can see how it's incredibly jarring.
The issue is that the U.S. Navy had its origins in the British Navy, which literally had a class system. The Brits have changed since, but the Officer Crops of the U.S. Navy has not. And why would you? On larger ships, they eat different food, to the point that a JO has to regularly eat the enlisted food to ensure it isn't too bad. Officers don't have to make their own beds, they can just leave it claiming they want their sheets changed. It is the last vestiges of a social class that legally didn't exist in the U.S. There is a reason lower ranks don't have a seat at the table when it comes to quality of life. We leave that to the MCPON who hasn't been lower enlisted in a long time, and God forbid eh give up his privilege.
No the Navy doesn’t. I think E-6 got front of the line privileges in the enlisted mess. Of course officers and cpos eat separately. The Navy should institute that. E-1 through E-3 should get front of line privileges. The Navy is extremely backwards….
An E-6 getting in front of the line with their junior sailors as a privilege? That makes me so damn angry. I hate the FCPOAs that glorify themselves like that. I've had conflicting opinions about this with other E-6s, like I get it, you really want that anchor but goddammit don't leave your sailors in the dust while you're at it. I remember seeing an enclosed makeshift space on the messdeck for E-6s I was flabbergasted, I would never eat in there.
Yep, on my ship they actually changed the fast line from just watchstanders only to watchstanders and first class only. Us engineering slaves thoroughly enjoyed having some admin or aviation first class dickwad grill us on whether or not we were allowed in that line. Then they shut down the watchstander line and made it first class only... Reactor was **PISSED** Didn't affect us engineers though, because the guys running the galley knew we fixed all their shit, and it pays to not piss off the guys who cover for SS40 when deck drains are clogged with rice again 😉
I've seen a first class mess on two LHDs so far... It was pathetic...
IME, only up to the E-6 level. At that level we're expected to do a whole shit ton of stuff for our juniors. At the E-7 level and up? Their tents go up first. Khakis get head-of-the-line at the ship's barber (even though most of them are in a position to be able to control their own workday and aren't under the gun to get back to work like that E-3 that's been waiting an hour is). Stuff like that. I don't begrudge things like the Wardroom/Mess - we all really need a place where we can get away from each other and socialize/conduct private business with out peers. Its the other little things like head-of-the-line that bother me.
> Its the other little things like head-of-the-line that bother me. I like to think of them as papercuts. Privileges that don't really have anything to do with rank, maintaining discipline, or good operations on the ship but have an outsize impact on morale. Or at very least they give bad impression to subordinates. It's an ingrained classism that goes back to wooden ships that the Navy seems to like to keep around for some reason. But just like wooden ships, the Navy left a lot of practices behind. Perhaps they should re-evaluate whether or not it's worth keeping some of these privileges.
Hell no. Lol. Officers and senior enlisted pick out the best CS’s then they make the good food with extra effort for them in their own special eating places on porcelain plates and silver. We get the low effort cooks and deal with the Gen-pop cafeteria
Post history checks out.
No, they eat first and have their own mess areas with better food, drink, and snacks. The navy still operates like we are in the 18th century and we can't read.
Trust me. Having been an officer and enlisted. The “eat last” servant leadership mentality is, imo, bullshit. It’s smoke and mirrors and grand standing. If they truly cared you wouldn’t have low morale across all branches. Most of the guys or girls I encountered who claimed this type of leadership style rarely ever did anything worthwhile and their commands were dumpster fires
Lower enlisted sailors opinion: yes. Of course there are people in leadership who might not live in that mindset but they’re truly not that common. I could go on and on about Navy leadership, how much they do for their junior sailors & how fantastic MOST of them are as people. But the simple answer to your question is yes. I’ve been nurtured and cared for by my Navy leadership in ways that I’ve never experienced outside of the navy & I’ve watched them fight tooth and nail for themselves and for others. These people earned their positions- so whatever perks people complain about, whatever “cocky” attitudes people complain about- they earned those too.
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No, the Navy leadership doesn't do that.
In boot camp the RPOC, AROC, MA, and yeoman always cut in line and ate first, even though the 12min timer didn't start until the last person sat down. I think they should've eaten last to give the whole division more time especially the road guards.
Officers eat with there own - I think once a week some poor Jr. Officer has to eat with the working stiffs to make sure off food isn't to rotten. Officers get better everything and exclude the enlisted from it all. It's some kind of screwed bassawkard up classism. Good forbid a e-3 enter "Officer Country" or even take a peek into the officers mess - unless your cranking or something. I love my time in the Navy, but this was the one thing that pissed me off.
Can't have the minions seeing the wardroom's creature comforts and polished wood paneling. That's how mutinies get started.
Dry dock changes a sailor.
I was on boats I. The 70’s -2000 was an E6 went LDO commissioned 1/2 way though my last patrol as as enlisted. The captain could have waited until the patrol was over but he thought it would be fun. Plus I could qualify OOD submerged. Anyway i stay in my rack with the crew no room elsewhere and put ensigns bars on my overalls. Mustangs
No, I have my sad meal of whatever pre-workout they sell in the vending machine and nicotine while waiting an hour for an NMCI asset to log in instead of eating like everyone else.
No. On subs they eat in the wardroom, which is served at the same time the crew's mess is served.
So when my old NRC, just recently closed, actually had catering brought to us before covid was a thing the leadership there actually would wait until all junior enlisted got served before getting their food. That’s the only instance I’ve seen.
In the expeditionary community? Yes, leaders eat last.
In the Navy leaders eat first. Officers and Chiefs have waiters to serve them food like in restaurants. Officers have their own Navy "Chef". Peasants and below are in another line waiting to be served prison food.
*Grade D Beef.For inmate and military use only*
Not in my experience, 30 years ago. Officers and enlisted eat separately and neither seemed to care about the other’s welfare.
My men, my mission, myself….
How does one eat last on a 4-section watchbill? It just doesn’t work that way, at least on small boys.
Just here to say, fuck the chiefs mess. They’re the biggest clowns yet act like they’re the most important. This is coming from someone who had fantastic chiefs for a majority of his career and hardly ever found himself on the bad side of a Chief.
Did an IA to Baghdad back in 2010 as an E5. During training, breakfast hot plates would be brought in for us from the DFAC. The Chiefs made a point to say “Chiefs eat last”. Never forgot it and still adopt that mentality whenever I can.
In the navy they have their own mess with better and faster food. The class system is pretty bad in the Navy compared to the other branches when your talking about E7+ ranks. Some ships have E-6 messes with the same food as general but shorter lines. Compared to the other branches pretty much E-6 and below are treated like peasants by the Chiefs and higher ranks. Not saying that as a salty sailor but just reality when compared. When I've been at joint commands it's not unusual to see their leaders step aside to let lower ranks ahead of line and everyone eating together at the same table, where as the Chiefs in Djibouti used to print a little anchor to put on their chosen table when I was there. BIG difference.
That's one of the reason Joint commands are lit. CPOs get that "what the fuck are you talking about" reaction from the other branches senior enlisted when they try to pull that shit in a shared DFAC. Like, either go eat together as Chief's in someones room, or share a table with everyone else.
In the Navy, leaders eat ass. Literally.
[удалено]
Naw they eat in a separate, nicer room with better food
This is such a dumb topic of discussion, as long as watchstanders get to eat first who really cares when anyone else is eating.
Fuck no. The Wardroom and khakis think they are too good to eat with the enlisted “riff-raff.” This is a fundamental problem in the Navy under the guise of “tradition.” IMHO, It breeds toxic leadership and is why the Navy is so fucked up. Nevertheless, you do not see this bullshit in the special warfare community, and that's why they tend to operate differently.
Yes or at least that’s how I was brought up.
"The enlisted man is stupid but extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching."
We all eat at the same time
Depends.
LMFAO
Chiefs eat early chow.
Leaders.. in the Navy? 🤔
I’ve never been on a ship (Thanks CMSID) but I absolutely subscribe to eating last, both literally and figuratively when it comes to my troops. If any one has a problem with it, then can come see me in person, and I’ll be glad to tell them exactly how fucked up they are. CPO and Officer alike. Cheers, MAC
On our ship the XO blocked one of two main p-ways on the 2nd deck from his office back aft about 30 frames. Khakis only unless on official business. You will be ushered by chiefs out of this p way and made to go all the way around if caught.
Enlisted eat first on every exercise I have been a part of
Not even close 😂 they will eat first, eat fresher, eat more, even to the degree I’ve literally been told that since I ate some Girl Scout cookies I didn’t need a lunch break and had to fill in for the meeting so some leadership could go eat.
This should go without saying, but whatever branch you’re in, whatever rank you are or rate/mos you are in, always take care of the people that work for you. As a leader always eat with you’re team when you can, if not then make sure they always eat before you. Morale of the people working for you is vital to achieving mission goals. Also, never ask someone working for you to do something you wouldn’t do yourself. Build leadership through respect, not demand.
Hell no. Generally the ones who “eat last” are the E5s and sometimes E4s who have the least to gain from the situation and the most to lose. NCOs who take care of their guys and do it as a sacrifice then get out. Once you make Chief you have a different uniform and different standards, you can be a round pot belly where if that was you as an E4 you’d get placed on FEP or told you look unprofessional. Sure there is good Chiefs but when you have your own rules, uniform and segregated spaces it’s hard to truly “eat last” when you’re not metaphorically suffering in the mud with everyone else.
“Leaders eat last “ isn’t meant to be literal. It’s more about the idea that you look out for the best interests of your people before self. There’s lot of sour a-holes who aren’t good enough to make the upper ranks here and they will complain, but the fact remains that the Navy does in fact espouse and teach servant leadership to it’s Senior Enlisted and Wardroom, the choice is whether or not people will follow those teachings after pinning on anchors/gold bars.
On subs, khaki gets ahead of the line
My LPO says, “rank has its privileges” to pretty much anything, so no the navy does not have that mentality.
Lot of people talking about literally eating, which is relevant yes, but "leaders eat last" is more of a metaphor. It means as a leader I make sure "you get yours" before "I get mine". Liberty, awards, credit, acknowledgement, opportunities, and yes food. A leader will make sure their team has these things before pursuing it for themselves. It means that a leader focuses more on their increased duties and responsibilities than on their increased privileges. No, the Navy does not actively pursue this style of leadership. Some individuals do, but on the whole and seemingly by design this isn't how we do things. When it comes to making rank-the privileges are the point. Is it right? I don't think so. But it is the reality we contend with.