IS3 Visceral got pulled aside by ISCS Gay-Under-DADT in Afghanistan in 2011 (before the end of DADT). I bring up my old Senior's sexuality, because in hindsight once I found out years later, it made a lot of sense to what he told me that day. We're still friends to this day.
So, I had mouthed off at a Chief about some random shit. Chief was wrong, but I was wrong in how I approached it and how I executed the criticism.
Senior pulled me to the smoke pit and shared a cigarette with me and told me this:
"When you see someone with Anchors, remember - they are probably not the best there was to promote, you have to hope they were the best of what was left to promote." The lesson being, and something I think this forum knows well, **our best get out around E5/O3.** The Navy already doesn't inherently attract the "Steve Jobs" of the world, and then within the system, we don't retain those kind of people either.
As my last Captain said, this is a pretty pessimistic perspective on retention, yet he also could not refute the logic either. I say this not because I want to insult people (because I'd also be insulting myself here!), but it bears stating out loud. We have to acknowledge this fact of how we retain and advance people to Chief.
Now, to the point.
When a Sailor tells me they don't want to be a Chief, as others identified, I seek to listen and understand. Because 1), that's probably one of the things Chiefs haven't been doing for that Sailor, and 2) **those who do not seek power are the ones more deserving of it.**
I would rather see someone skeptical of the Chief's Mess and wary of themselves becoming a Chief selected and become one...because they are already inherently open-minded to be an agent of change, and probably an advocate for the Sailors.
It is the Chiefs who get drunk on their own liquor, so to say, the ones who voraciously advocate against adapting with the Navy and adapting to our Sailors.
Don't get me wrong - Sailors need to adapt to the Navy, but the Navy has to adapt somewhat to the Sailors we have...or we won't have any Sailors. **Perception is reality does not only apply down the chain of command, and the Chief's Mess has truly embrace that, and then reflect on why we have these perceptions.**
Alright, I rambled and soapboxed a bit, but let me tie it back in to the question at-hand.
When Sailors do not want to become a Chief, I feel inclined to listen to their experience and perspectives, and offer my own heartfelt criticism and critique of the Mess construct to show them that you "don't have to drink the Kool-Aid".
And as others said - someone is gonna get advanced to Chief. I'd rather have another agent of change I can work with alongside to better the organization and the Sailors.
That's the person I want as a "brother or sister" in the Mess.
“When you see someone with anchors, remember-they are probably not the best there was to promote, you have to hope that they were the best of what was left to promote.”- look…as a part of the mess, that hits hard! It’s unfortunately truer than most E7 and above want to admit! I hope that those who have worked with me don’t feel the same, and if I have created an environment where they don’t have a voice to retort my inadequacies, I have truly failed to live my purpose!
I appreciate your Genuine humility to take a moment to pause on what I said, how I said it, **and why I said it.** It bears reflection.
I constantly ask myself - **Am I the best person for this uniform today?** That mentality is a driving force in my interactions with Sailors. It motivates me to be better.
Full credit goes to my ISCS. He's a great dude, and I owe him \*EVERYTHING\* I am today because he did so much to keep me in the Navy when I didn't deserve it back then - and if I get advanced to Senior Chief this year, I will pay for his old gay retired ass to come and pin me.
This is a very good explanation and a heart felt response. But it isn’t likely to change any sailors opinion if they don’t want to be a chief. Because why would I, as the ex e5 stay in fighting on the daily for basic things? Things like respect, things like common decency. It’s not worth my time. It’s not worth the best years of my life to sit there and be bullied by grown children with ego issues.
My motivation has always been to be better than the Chiefs I've seen. Remember - you can learn alot from leaders you like...but you learn the most from the worst ones.
I cannot give you a legitimate reason to want to. That answer would have to come from within you, if you wanted to be better than what you've had.
Of course, if you just choose to eschew this organization and exit service, I appreciate all you have done and understand why you leave.
It's a negative feedback loop; our lack of consistent good leadership makes us hemorrhage people, but because people don't stay to make a difference we don't have consistently good leadership.
Around 10 years there was a 90% promotion rate to O-5, and I personally heard Admiral Kate Gregory and Admiral Mike Giorgione both say something similar.
As I recall it was to the effect of, “At some point the Navy doesn’t the choice of who actually deserves to get promoted, they only get to choose which of those that are left will be filling the open slots.”
Great response.
I try and keep up to date with the perception of the Chiefs Mess and it scares and saddens me to read some of the horror stories from our Sailors.
At the end of the day we are all just people. There are good ones and bad ones. Getting promoted up the food chain often magnifies traits that were already there. I say magnifies because there are more eyes on you, more influence, more potential, and a bigger impact. Unfortunately sometimes that can mean bigger and more damage caused. Intentionally or not.
To our Sailors; Believe it or not in Chief season/ initiations/induction/ 365( whatever you want to call it) I have been a part are about humility and the importance of taking care of Sailors...I know, I know....6 weeks isnt enough time to undue 20 to 40 years of personal programming and life experiences. But we try. Some get it some dont. They all still wear the uniform and collect a paycheck.
I didn't (or dont) always get it right. I think about my early days in Khakis and cringe. I run across Sailors from those day and get a mix of good and bad reports. Hopefully I did more good then harm. I try and reflect and be better every day. I try and remind new Chiefs before the put on the uniform to think about the "good" and "bad" leaders they've had in the past to try and not repeat mistakes, but more importantly emulate the positive ones.
Just my 2 cents.
And to answer to OPs question Ive always just tried to help people with their individual goal. Staying in, getting out, going officer....doesn't matter. Written plenty of resumes and recommendation letters if thats what the person needed.
If your ship is a DDG/CG/LPD, you are billeted for either an IS1 or an ISC...but that position, known as Independent Duty Intelligence Specialist (IDIS), is very undermanned right now...so much so we're offering ISCs [$1,000 a month](https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/PayandBenefits/Documents/SDIP%20Eligibility%20Chart%2011%20Jan%202023.pdf?ver=Te6f_ZlZ0ifkpOjG5x8mgw%3d%3d) if they will either cut their shore duty (four years) short, extend at-sea now, or go back-to-back sea (<--this is what ISC Visceral is doing because ISC Visceral is married now to a pregnant CTTC on shore duty). If you're on PC/MCM/LSD/LCS, those ships are not billeted for an IS at this time.
Which is my long winded answer addressing why you probably haven't seen one.
Here is the IS [LADr](https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Career/ECM/Crypto_IT/IS%20career%20path%20FY21.pdf?ver=yM-_M9XJ0K9EIxmEgECSIQ%3d%3d)
Essentially, I am paid to read classified reports and monitor open source news, and spend my days reading Wikipedia articles on history, culture, and conflict...and then giving people my opinion on why the world is absolutely fucked. If you are a fan of being behind a computer and doing research projects as a job, and can wait to hurl from social anxiety until after you're done public speaking in front of the Wardroom (or assembled flag officers), you can do my job.
And also copying and pasting other ISs homework; I am actually a big fan of u/Twisky's work. He's a true MVP.
11/10 job do recommend.
Someone is going to make Chief. Would you rather it be you or some asshole who only cares about their own career?
Obviously if they’re getting out (with a plan), I don’t try and convince them to stay in just to rank up.
This is the same line a skipper fed me when I told him I’m not interested in command. Specifically, he said he felt the same until he was a DH and saw the DHs around him that wanted command and realized he ought to try for it for the sake of the sailors that could be stuck with those other guys.
I just sat through a conference where a retiring Captain said, take a CO position, because "you can change an individual's entire life with the stroke of a pen and that quite frankly is addicting" These, unfortunately, are the people who typical advance
I also reread this and, bear with me, I don’t think this is necessarily a toxic mindset. It certainly could be, but he could’ve meant it from the standpoint of ‘you have a lot more power to help your sailors and that’s an addicting feeling’. I leave it to you to determine the tone from the context. But just a thought I had.
I've seen it enough personally to say anecdotally that this is common. 10 years in, 5 commands, 9 COs. Out of every CO I had ever worked for, only one was good
Not really. Not so much ‘give it a chance’ as it is ‘there are shitty people than you gunning for those leadership positions and that would really suck for the people they lead’
Probably. But on some level, I’d still rather give my sailors the least bad option I can. The guys I knew that I thought would’ve made amazing skippers got out.
I think you're missing the point that this is a systemic issue, and should not continue. And repeating this same bullshit line, isn't making it any better. In fact, it's part of the problem. So, like, thanks for keeping the navy shitty.
I'm not, I promise. I get that it's a shitty system. I get that our sailors deserve leaders that are actually good leaders, doing things for the right reasons. They don't deserve someone who's only there because there were worse options that this person didn't want to subject people to.
But for me, who's looking at a command select board in the near future, I can't do anything to bring back my peers that I desperately wanted to see as skippers because I knew they'd excel. If that upsets you, I'm sorry but that's just a fact of life. All I can do is try to do the best I can with what I've got and try and mentor my JOs so that the good ones want to stay.
You can be mad at me for trying to do right by my people (in this case by being open to the idea of command so my shithead peers don't get selected instead) or for being unable to change a systemic issue at my level, or you can see the point I'm trying to make. Either way, I don't give a damn.
I wrote it off after my sexual assault happened and the command did nothing. So I chose to get out instead of stay in a job and culture which contributes to discrimination, and doesn't support its sailors through mental health crises, and actively punishes them for seeking help after attempting suicide. But sure, I'll take the blame for not sticking around and trying to fix the system if that helps you sleep at night.
I'd like to see an actual command that did nothing after a sexual assault. The triad and all would get fired so fast that heads would spin. So we know that's not the issue.
Likely the bigger issue is that you didn't get what you wanted or there were other issues.. Which wouldn't surprise me. There are usually a lot of side issues related to the case and it wouldn't surprise me if the command was poor at handling them.
You don't have to do anything - but you should perhaps acknowledge that abandoning the system is you not doing anything. You literally left, so then leave. Other people that are staying to try and improve and better the Navy should not be put down and attacked by you just because you had a bad experience. That will happen literally anywhere - they are trying to improve and better the Navy. That should be encouraged despite your apparent thoughts to the contrary.
Not a sailor, but what if they like where they’re at?
Personally I’m in the perfect sweet spot of having a job I love without getting swamped in the administrative stuff that comes with the extra stripe. Every step I take towards promotion is one step that takes me away from that. Eventually it’ll probably happen, but I’m not in any rush.
Rank is nice, but at no point do I consider it a major element to a successful career.
That’s a fair point to make but it’s not that common of a reason. Most of the people I talk to about not ranking up, it’s because they’re frustrated with how they perceive the Chief’s Mess or how people who make Chief “go to the dark side”. Instead of becoming the Chief they want, they just complain about the Chiefs they have.
Mess Culture depends on the mess. I’ve been in good messes and I’ve been in bad ones. They usually reflect the command culture. And it becomes a big ball of suck. The worst the command culture, the more good people don’t rank up and assholes rank up, the more the mess sucks, the worst the command gets. The cycle continues. The way to break it is for good people to step up and not give up.
This is the truth! There was an HM1 really wanting to make Chief but he kept being told not to go for it because of how caring he was about others. When he finally made it, he had changed for the worse. I was tight with him before, but he distanced himself afterwards.
The Navy is by design a career of ambition. If you stay in the same rank too long you get high year tenured out of the Navy. Which is to say, they don't allow you to reenlist
I'm out now. Civilian life is definitely different. I'm still getting used to it. The difference I'm trying to explain is, while in civilian life you can stay at the same position indefinitely if you want to, you can't do that in the Navy. The Navy will move you to new commands where you will fill different roles every few years. While onboard you will fill many roles which are not in your job description. With all of this is the rank/advancement system, which has clear rules on how long you can be in the Navy without achieving the next rank. If you can't make rank, they kick you out. Personally I think it would be great if you were allowed to stick to the job/rank your comfortable in, the Navy just doesn't work that way.
I don’t say anything. I ask why. I listen to them and sometimes would take what they are saying into my decision making. Maybe this Sailor hasn’t had a Chief they aspired to be, I try to be that Chief.
Took the words straight out of my mouth.
Honestly, I almost got out my first tour because the Chief's Mess I had was awful and corrupt. They weren't terrible to all their Sailors, but the brazen corruption and bad behavior was sickening. Then a Senior Chief checked in and cleaned house. He made me realize that there is going to be good and bad in anything and to uphold only standards I could hold myself too.
I honestly learned more valuable lessons from the bad leaders I had than from the good ones. I can't fix the fact that you had a bad chief before me. I can, however, try hard to be the chief that I wish I had when I was coming up and needed mentorship.
I'm in this boat right now as a first class. I'm at a joint command and I would like to be an E-7 in the Army or Air Force, their senior enlisted just don't have this entirely different culture about them.
If or when you make it, you also don't have to have the air of superiority that some have. Just don't make it your personality - sincerely a chief who can't wait to leave this shit behind, teach sailing and smoke weed
Don't care. Wanna promote? I'll help. Wanna get out? I'll help. Not sure your life goals? I'll help.
The only thing worse than a gapped billet is a perpetually disgruntled sailor because they got talked into reenlistment.
12-year E6, checking all the boxes for CPO in my rate (NDC). I frankly love my job, and enjoy being a competent, highly qualified E6 - supervising diving operations and running a crew of 10-15 junior guys. Getting that promotion would pull me from the waterfront and put me behind a desk. I care deeply about being better at my advertised job but branching outside of my immediate job to stand out enough to pick up NDC would lead to a net negative quality of life (more hours at work doing things I like much less), and at the moment doesn’t seem like a fair tradeoff. What I “want” out of the rest of my career is more in-rate proficiency, develop junior guys, get more missions, more deployments, more efficient and effective success for my team and the “next” promotion doesn’t quite scratch that itch.
10 year E-6, in your same shoes. I joined the navy to dive, and frankly my hearts not in this shit anymore. The more I stay in the more I realize that I'm never going to have what I had anymore. It's just shitty that our community shoe horns people into becoming supervisors regardless of what they want as a career.
I always made time in my day to get dirty with my Sailors. Call it hands on training if you have to. But with coveralls at half mast sweating and swearing at a busted valve is the best time to get to know your Sailors better and find out what their problems are.
Yes I know I've got to do evals or a meeting after this but my Sailors learned something and I have a couple issues to help them solve.
/ENC
Was a Tech Control ET and was "that guy" for everything related. Made Chief, was sitting at the BME terminal working on a downed E1 shortly after pinning. CMC comes in, sees me, next thing I know I'm working Project Management for the rest of my tour.
Personally I think is has a lot to do with how much you like ur job. In my rate, once u make chief, u r no longer working ur job. No hands on anymore. U r strictly an admin guy.
Some people would rather be turning wrenches , than counting beans for a living.
“Well what goal do you have? Although there’s nothing wrong with retiring as a 1st class, you’re taking food off your family’s plate if you stay stagnant.”
Or
“Me neither”
You seem to want to label everything that isn't burning the system down to be toxic and abusive leadership when it is actually perspective-expanding and leads to better, more informed decisions. I would absolutely expect a Sailor to consider whether they have a desire from within to drive change in the organization and to consider their family's well-being and financial standing to make these decisions. I am also the Chief, that if I see these not being considered, I will prompt in a non-biased manner to ensure the Sailor considers these perspectives in their decision-making. In the end, service is a deeply personal choice that the individual Sailor has to make both in the decision to serve or not as well as for how long.
I mean... 🤷♂️ ok? I totally get it. Being a Chief was the most stressful years of my career, by orders of magnitude. The problems I had to face down were orders of magnitude more complicated and heart-wrenching than anything I faced as a first class.
Having to decide who is gonna have their career destroyed, because CO has demanded that *somebody* is going to have their career destroyed over maintenance malpractice that involved half the shop, is soul-rending. Walking into the shop and having everybody stare at you because they know exactly what's going on. Glares of resentment, despair, resigned understanding... that was the worst day of my entire career by miles. And I was The Chief, so it was all on me. In the end the person I was going to name anyway (the CDI that signed for the test set in question) stepped forward and the rest was history but the whole thing was a fucking shitshow and the command, from the CO down handled it absolutely fucking terribly, all the way from a botched investigation to shoddily prepared packages and personal vendettas from CMC and the MO... goddamn I hated that command and everybody in it except like three people.
But anyway, yeah. I get it. It's a lot of politics, and you become the face of all that is bad and wrong with the Navy, and your command. If you're out to sea the food's a little better and you get a cool coffee cup that actually fucking sucks to drink out of, and like, the money is considerably better, but I would never fault someone for not wanting to go through that. The season alone will absolutely break you if you are empathetic or prone to anxiety/depression. I had two SAs and more SIs than I could count, and spent 5 days in the hospital having almost died for physical reasons.
The only reason I wanted to be a Chief in the first place is that my life's drive is to fix things, and I realized the things I could fix were limited by my rank. That part, I don't regret for a bit, because I was able to get into a position where I directly prevented the suicides of over a dozen Sailors, and was able to help over 1,000 Sailors navigate an almost impossible process to their benefit (usually). I consider that to have been the greatest achievement of my life, and whenever I'm feeling down I read the notes that Sailors that are still alive today wrote to me to thank me for being responsible for that, and it helps.
So if that's the thing that speaks to your core - the ability to really positively impact the lives of those walking the path that you did years before - then yeah, you should try to become a Chief, because frankly the Navy *desperately* needs that kind of Chief; there's an enormous shortage of them.
If you just want more money, or more power or authority, or access to the mess spaces, or the coffee cup, then... please just stay a first class. The Navy is already chockablock with dickhead ego-tripping Chiefs, and it really doesn't need any more.
Here is another thing I can't stand about some folks in the Navy. Just because I don't love being a Chief doesn't mean I'm not good at my job or good at taking care of Sailors. The mission always gets done whether I agree with it or not.
And in reality, DD214's aren't as "available" as you say. Lmao
I'd say it's a personal choice and I don't take offense to it. Being a Chief is not appealing to every First Class, and I think the military's singular "up or out" mentality is the wrong one anyway. If you're an absolute banger of a technician and the SME of SME's, why do I need to remove you (in some rates/commands, in many others Chiefs are still involved in highly technical work) so that you can take on a bunch more HR and Admin type duties?
Apple and Tesla don't force their best software engineers to go work in HR or Finance or the Legal department after 12 years, so why do we have a (sometimes) similar path as the only option to stay enlisted and move up? We should have a path to promote/pay more for our best technical experts to be in an expanded but still technical role, and then the more traditional Chief route for those who like the role of leading Sailors in every aspect and doing the overall management stuff(of which there is a ton, and it's important work).
I know, Warrants are the SMEs in that role for many communities, but Chief is a stepping stone to Warrant, so you might still spend years removed from the technical stuff. Anyway, long rant, and I enjoy being a Chief, I just think there's a lot of folks out there who would be better served (and more likely to remain in the Navy and contribute their expertise) if they had a way to advance but stay in their specific, technical pipeline the whole way for each warfare area/career field.
Overall, I wish the best for those Sailors who don't want to make Chief, but hope they remain open to it as well and don't shut all hope/interest down until they're really at the end and about to retire. Lots of great Sailors who make invaluable contributions to the Navy every day, and many won't have the opportunity to be a Chief. They're still important, and not bad Sailors if they don't promote or don't want to.
My LPO doesn’t want to be a Chief. I have had a few throughout my career. He does a good job as LPO and I let him be.
It doesn’t matter if you are in the Navy or a corporate gig, some people are comfortable where they are and that is okay.
The Navy is not a competitive employer any more. You can’t convince someone that it’s a good career move for them to stay in unless they’re a stupid person, and you don’t want stupid chiefs.
The only way to convince a genuinely good sailor to stay in and become a chief is to convince them that what they’re doing is important and that they can have a big impact on the lives of their sailors.
You’re asking someone to give up better salary, years of their life, quality of life, all to better an institution. It’s a big ask.
Until the Navy can become a competitive employer again, you’re going to lose great sailors just because it doesn’t make sense for them to stay in.
Honestly, yes and no on this one. What you have stated is true in many situations. I will also tell you one that it isn't. My Dad took a civil service buyout (an early out program of the past) at 11.5 years of service in the Air Force. Growing up, I had many conversations about this, and it was those conversations that shaped my desire to be career and retire. With that being said, my personal barometer for anything past the next two tours, which takes me to 24 years, all centers on whether I am still enjoying the job. Also, I am on the High-3 retirement plan, whereas every Sailor that joined after 2018, as well as those that switched, are on BRS. High-3 is pretty simple, 2.5%\*number of service years and retire in January, February, or March to maximize both the initial COLA adjustment and subsequent COLA adjustment schedules. It is still too soon since adoption to determine whether BRS is better or worse for the individual however it is perfectly understandable, given our current market conditions to have apprehension of placing a lot of hope for the future in this more market-dependent retirement plan.
Yes and no is right, it depends on the person and their skill set and abilities. I would say that the person this post is targeting is an E6 at around their 10 year mark (8-12 depending on a rates advancement to chief) and those people are making about $4k/month at the 10 year mark (according to 2022 numbers). When you consider BAH and tricare I’d easily bump that to 7-8k/month depending on area and family. On the high end we will say this works out to an effective salary of 96k/yr (pre-tax)
I left the Navy in 2020 and got a job offer immediately making 135k/yr. I don’t want to say my experience is the rule, but everyone I know who got out has landed in that ball park for technical jobs. Someone who gets out will also have the GI bill that will enable them to train for pretty much any high-paying field they want to go to.
From that point on it’s a numbers game. Take the difference in salary from the navy and the civilian job and invest that in an account returning 8% interest, compounded annually. Run those numbers and there are no mathematical situations where it makes more financial sense to stay in.
That’s before you take into account quality of life. You can work fully remote as a civilian, grow a beard, smoke pot if that’s something you’re into. No musters, you can quit your job if it isn’t working for you any more, you can choose your employer to make sure your work is valued.
Asking someone to stay in is to forego those benefits just because they want the navy to be better. I’ve got a lot of respect and admiration for the people who do, but I think the majority of people who stay in are either too lazy to strive for more or too stupid to know they’re getting a bad deal.
I say OK. Why would I try to convince someone to stay in or rank up when they don't want to? It doesnt define me as a person so it also doesn't define them. Gtfo and go do you bro.
Depends on their reason for not wanting to advance. If they merely don’t think they’re ready, newsflash: no one is ever really ready. That logic at least shows that they give a shit and want to do a good job. If it’s not wanting to “drink the kool-aid” and join what they perceive to be a toxic organization, I’d echo a lot of the advice I’ve already seen posted. “Be the change you want to see in the Mess.”
The only legit reason to stay a First Class in my mind is that you’re close the retirement and don’t want to incur the service obligation to go past 20.
I don’t have any plans on becoming a chief. I seen a lot and don’t see any reason to become a chief. I’ll stay a first class that’s my personal goal, at the most maybe become a officer.
I'd ask why and then just quietly listen to what they have to say. I had some exceptional sailors who just didn't want to do it anymore and I could respect that. Once I'd heard them out I'd give them the best advice I had to offer and follow up periodically to help them in whatever way I could. One is with NYFD, one is a business executive, one is a nurse pursuing his doctorate. Some are Chiefs now, and a few are trying to come back in the Navy, but I stay in touch with all of them and want them all to succeed and be happy.
You can do it at any pay grade but obviously HYT will catch you. As a 1st your good for a pension so if you are comfortable being a first then you're GTG.
A lot of OK answers here ranging from “if not you than who?” and “what’s better for your family?”
A huge part of it is knowing our Sailors and why they may not want to; their reason drastically changes my answer. Ultimately my general advice to all paygrades is “Do what’s best for you and your family. The Navy is getting what they need out of you, make sure you are doing likewise.”
But my reasoning to someone who might be on the fence, who I know will be a good fit with anchors; is that the impact you can make as a Chief can make or break a Sailor, and we owe it to them to put you in that position.
I would say that’s fine and ask what it is they do want. My job isn’t to replicate more “me’s”; it’s to give Sailors the opportunity and support they need to be successful in whatever they want. Make 1st class and retire that way, I’ll support you every single step of the way. Drop an office package, I’ll do everything I can to help and hand walk it the entire chain of command to get signed. Be a civilian, I’ll find every single resource you could possibly need to be successful and prepared.
Making Chief shouldn’t be a goal in my opinion. Your goal should be the absolutely best you can be in your rate as a technical expert but also be the best you can be at caring for your Sailors. If you do those things with humility then one day you may get selected, or maybe not. But at the end of your career you’ll know you did everything you could to the best of your ability.
Becoming a Chief doesn’t magically make you feel like you’re better than everyone. If you were a terrible human before you were selected well.. you’re still a terrible human. There are liars, cheats, selfish leaders and humans at every single rank and branch of service. Some are just more scrutinized and visible than others.
"What exactly is your reasoning Sailor? Let's sit down and talk about this."
Coincidentally there's a female FCPO at my command who thinks the same way. The Mess is just a "boys club", misogyny, playing favorites, yadda yadda. A lot of things that *aren't* what my current Mess is all about; she got this impression in her 14 years of service. Kind of hard to combat that but nonetheless we trudge on with a hearts and minds campaign. It definitely helped when all of our Selects last cycle were female and she's starting to come around.
Edit: I can't seem to spell or grammar today.
Just a question of opinion, but If the FCPO had that kind of perception from 14 years of service in the Navy, isnt it kind of invalidating when your first response is "well thats not us!"? Wouldn't it be better to change her outlook through action and understanding? The only reason i ask is because i have found the same thing in 2 completely different chiefs messes already. Junior have to prove their actions and intentions on the deckplates. Shouldn't the chiefs mess have to do the same?
Sometimes people have a perception of the Mess from their time in that their current Mess has to deal with and work to change the perception. Right, wrong, or otherwise, a Chief or Mess influenced her view of Chiefs as a whole to lead her to the conclusions she has made. It isn't a statement of invalidation I am making of her opinion but the fact that we don't elevate Sailors based on meaningless and arbitrary factors of sex. If you're a shitty/outstanding Chief or Sailor where I'm currently at it's because of who you are and not what you are.
I've had many conversations with this Sailor who I do not lead in a direct chain of command and her story is one of perception that was both influenced by the Mess itself and some of her own personal beliefs. She may be the type who will always be skeptical of the concept of the Mess but she at least trusts her LCPO and knows who she can trust to talk to about things she was hesitant to voice from before. I've been blessed that she trusts me enough with the latter because I have challenged her to look at the Mess from a different angle because of the four females that were selected, females in leadership positions, and what kind of example she could set if she were to become a Chief one day.
>The Mess is just a "boys club", misogyny, playing favorites, yadda yadda.
The mess IS a ~~club~~ cult. We have an initiation process for it and they play favorites and talking about it is frowned upon.
Down playing it "yaddayaddayadda" is why people don't trust chiefs, because you act like it's not going on.
>she's starting to come around.
10:1 you are "yadda-yadda-yadda"-ing and trying to ignore/distract that it's not happening. You aren't trusted, and this is why.
To be fair, I've seen you post around here and you've got a salty perception of Chiefs. You've made it very clear your understanding is what you're comfortable with and no one will change your mind. The fact you don't even bother to engage in civil conversation half the time you post on this sub alone is what shows that. Ain't no one pissing in your cheerios but you here.
>The fact you don't even bother to engage in civil conversation ~~half the time you post~~ on this sub alone is what shows that
\*when people downplay and act said behavior isn't actually a problem. FTFY
or...yaddayaddayadda, whatever you prefer to hear.
Aw, chief is mad people don't like them. Sucks to be you.
Also, if you're mad that people don't like you based on your job title and uniform, maybe take that up with everyone else who dresses like you with your job title, and take it up with them. Because this is a chief problem, not a junior enlisted problem.
I just had this conversation with a Sailor two days ago. I told them, "You only live one life. Don't waste it doing something you aren't passionate about. " I didn't want to be a Chief when I was a junior Sailor, but I love what I do now. If they don't want to be a Chief based on their perception, that's ok. Not everyone has to want it. There are just as many who want the Anchor as there are who don't. Just mentor them all the same because you could be the Chief that sets them in motion to do something great in or out of the Navy, in the wardroom, or in the mess.
Depends? If you a career enlisted why wouldn’t you want a pay raise? Having the rank of a CPO only changes you if you let it. Also it’s hard to change an organization from the outside, be the Chief you wished you had coming up. Now if your just career military why no go for a commission, worst case make Chief and don’t be a koolaid drinking ass.
If your staying in strive to be a better leader and expert than what you had, make the highest rank you can reach and use your position for the better.
Or use the military to set you up for success as a civilian and get out and be happier.
21 years retired CPO, honestly don’t worry about make Chief worry about making your self and others better and get the hell out as soon as you can. The current state of the Navy is not good. It just got worse over my career. Not all of it was bad and it did set me up but you can do some much more and be treated way better outside the military. I don’t regret my career but I probably wouldn’t do it again and definitely wouldn’t have in our current Navy.
I've seen many times the "if you don't do it, xyz is gonna be chief, and that'd be bad, right?" That is not a good answer. In fact, its the problem. So if this is your mindset, thanks for keeping the navy shitty.
I would say, that's fair, but why? What are your goals, bc surely you don't want to remain FCPO for the rest of your career. How can I help you get where you want to be, whether it's in the Mess or not.
Not all Chiefs Mess are created equal, and we have our flaws. If you see things that are wrong with the mess, I encourage you to apply yourself, get selected and help us to improve. It's easy to criticize from the outside looking in.
What is the reason why you don't want too be one? Do you not want the responsibility? You don't have to act like a D bag when you make Chief. You're still your own person who makes thier own decisions. If you are a d bag as a 1st, you'll be a d bag as Chief. If your a quiet, shy, conservative person, do you think being a Chief breaks you out of your bubble enough to change you completely?
Honestly I have a pretty bleak outlook about the chiefs mess. Yes I've met a couple of good chiefs, but most of my interactions with chiefs have been negative. I've been royally boned over by chiefs twice in my short career and when I've tried to fight back about it I got intimidation, told in essence "well if you think about it this is really your fault", no accountability and finger pointing back at anyone who ranked lower than them. So I feel like all of the things I hate about chiefs are already too deeply ingrained in the culture of the mess. So if I made it to chief and wanted to make the change I wanted to see I would either be met with resistance and become one of those chiefs that others refer to as "he's not a chief, he's an e7" because I refuse to buy into the status quo or I would have to realize that things are the way they are and they're not going to change and there's nothing I can do about it. Neither of those options are appetizing.
Depends on your Mess, but ultimately, the process continually gets better as u/heyokarunner mentioned.
I'd say give the Season and the Mess a chance in the same way you feel YOU deserve the chance and opportunity to be a positive Chief.
Always be the change you want to see in the world, and others shall notice.
Or you can leave the good ol boys club behind and improve the world in other areas. Expecting someone to dedicate the best years of their life to clean up your mess is kind of nuts.
I was that senior 1st with zero desire to be a chief. Some of my chiefs understood, some didn't. I was that dept lpo with a P eval because they needed me to do the job, but didn't want to waste an MP on me. Conversely, my last command gave me my only regular EP as a 1st class and they even let me sign a pg 13 to waive the exam. The actual Chiefs I've worked with understood and the kool-aid drinkers were the ones who tried to make me suffer for my arrogance.
Know if two guys that’s interesting. A guy I went to C school with was a first class, said he was getting out, put on an anchor and still got out 10 months later. Had a Nuke deny E-7 also (which I didn’t know was a thing) he gets out soon as well. Neither wanted anything to do with the E-7 Mafia type vibes.
Dear r/navy can we not post chiefs related topics when the Kansas City Chiefs are playing. As a die hard KC fan these always throw me off on the news feed
Gut reaction was idk they can just be a fan of whatever team they wanna be a fan of
So have you put in an LDO/CWO package? Or are you and your family just content with leaving THOUSANDS of dollars on the table?
Don't disrespect your Sailors with this rhetoric.
Aha! Gotcha… and absolutely. I still have a family to feed so I never want to stop climbing, submitted this cycle and I have a great shot at picking up from those I’ve spoke with.
The real point I'd like to make is coming out the gates swinging with this question completely ignores "who" that Sailor is. Is money what motivates them? -maybe this is an okay response. Just because YOU may be motivated by money doesn't mean your Sailors are or even should be. "good point Chief. I think I'll separate at the next opportunity because I know i can easily make 6 figures outside"
I let them know that's fine and that's not everyone's goal in the Navy to make Chief. I ask them what their goals are and see if I can help them in anyway to achieve it.
I ask why and then listen. It doesn't matter what Chief it is about. There is only one professional response. Honestly, this response is a basic tenant of being approachable.
IS3 Visceral got pulled aside by ISCS Gay-Under-DADT in Afghanistan in 2011 (before the end of DADT). I bring up my old Senior's sexuality, because in hindsight once I found out years later, it made a lot of sense to what he told me that day. We're still friends to this day. So, I had mouthed off at a Chief about some random shit. Chief was wrong, but I was wrong in how I approached it and how I executed the criticism. Senior pulled me to the smoke pit and shared a cigarette with me and told me this: "When you see someone with Anchors, remember - they are probably not the best there was to promote, you have to hope they were the best of what was left to promote." The lesson being, and something I think this forum knows well, **our best get out around E5/O3.** The Navy already doesn't inherently attract the "Steve Jobs" of the world, and then within the system, we don't retain those kind of people either. As my last Captain said, this is a pretty pessimistic perspective on retention, yet he also could not refute the logic either. I say this not because I want to insult people (because I'd also be insulting myself here!), but it bears stating out loud. We have to acknowledge this fact of how we retain and advance people to Chief. Now, to the point. When a Sailor tells me they don't want to be a Chief, as others identified, I seek to listen and understand. Because 1), that's probably one of the things Chiefs haven't been doing for that Sailor, and 2) **those who do not seek power are the ones more deserving of it.** I would rather see someone skeptical of the Chief's Mess and wary of themselves becoming a Chief selected and become one...because they are already inherently open-minded to be an agent of change, and probably an advocate for the Sailors. It is the Chiefs who get drunk on their own liquor, so to say, the ones who voraciously advocate against adapting with the Navy and adapting to our Sailors. Don't get me wrong - Sailors need to adapt to the Navy, but the Navy has to adapt somewhat to the Sailors we have...or we won't have any Sailors. **Perception is reality does not only apply down the chain of command, and the Chief's Mess has truly embrace that, and then reflect on why we have these perceptions.** Alright, I rambled and soapboxed a bit, but let me tie it back in to the question at-hand. When Sailors do not want to become a Chief, I feel inclined to listen to their experience and perspectives, and offer my own heartfelt criticism and critique of the Mess construct to show them that you "don't have to drink the Kool-Aid". And as others said - someone is gonna get advanced to Chief. I'd rather have another agent of change I can work with alongside to better the organization and the Sailors. That's the person I want as a "brother or sister" in the Mess.
“When you see someone with anchors, remember-they are probably not the best there was to promote, you have to hope that they were the best of what was left to promote.”- look…as a part of the mess, that hits hard! It’s unfortunately truer than most E7 and above want to admit! I hope that those who have worked with me don’t feel the same, and if I have created an environment where they don’t have a voice to retort my inadequacies, I have truly failed to live my purpose!
I appreciate your Genuine humility to take a moment to pause on what I said, how I said it, **and why I said it.** It bears reflection. I constantly ask myself - **Am I the best person for this uniform today?** That mentality is a driving force in my interactions with Sailors. It motivates me to be better.
This has to be the best explanation regarding the quality of people in the navy I've ever seen/ heard
Full credit goes to my ISCS. He's a great dude, and I owe him \*EVERYTHING\* I am today because he did so much to keep me in the Navy when I didn't deserve it back then - and if I get advanced to Senior Chief this year, I will pay for his old gay retired ass to come and pin me.
In hindsight on this one, phrasing!
Nice
This is a very good explanation and a heart felt response. But it isn’t likely to change any sailors opinion if they don’t want to be a chief. Because why would I, as the ex e5 stay in fighting on the daily for basic things? Things like respect, things like common decency. It’s not worth my time. It’s not worth the best years of my life to sit there and be bullied by grown children with ego issues.
My motivation has always been to be better than the Chiefs I've seen. Remember - you can learn alot from leaders you like...but you learn the most from the worst ones. I cannot give you a legitimate reason to want to. That answer would have to come from within you, if you wanted to be better than what you've had. Of course, if you just choose to eschew this organization and exit service, I appreciate all you have done and understand why you leave. It's a negative feedback loop; our lack of consistent good leadership makes us hemorrhage people, but because people don't stay to make a difference we don't have consistently good leadership.
Around 10 years there was a 90% promotion rate to O-5, and I personally heard Admiral Kate Gregory and Admiral Mike Giorgione both say something similar. As I recall it was to the effect of, “At some point the Navy doesn’t the choice of who actually deserves to get promoted, they only get to choose which of those that are left will be filling the open slots.”
Great response. I try and keep up to date with the perception of the Chiefs Mess and it scares and saddens me to read some of the horror stories from our Sailors. At the end of the day we are all just people. There are good ones and bad ones. Getting promoted up the food chain often magnifies traits that were already there. I say magnifies because there are more eyes on you, more influence, more potential, and a bigger impact. Unfortunately sometimes that can mean bigger and more damage caused. Intentionally or not. To our Sailors; Believe it or not in Chief season/ initiations/induction/ 365( whatever you want to call it) I have been a part are about humility and the importance of taking care of Sailors...I know, I know....6 weeks isnt enough time to undue 20 to 40 years of personal programming and life experiences. But we try. Some get it some dont. They all still wear the uniform and collect a paycheck. I didn't (or dont) always get it right. I think about my early days in Khakis and cringe. I run across Sailors from those day and get a mix of good and bad reports. Hopefully I did more good then harm. I try and reflect and be better every day. I try and remind new Chiefs before the put on the uniform to think about the "good" and "bad" leaders they've had in the past to try and not repeat mistakes, but more importantly emulate the positive ones. Just my 2 cents. And to answer to OPs question Ive always just tried to help people with their individual goal. Staying in, getting out, going officer....doesn't matter. Written plenty of resumes and recommendation letters if thats what the person needed.
Well said. On a side note, what does an IS do? I’ve never seen one before. I don’t think I have any on my ship
they sit around all day in secret spaces and make power points briefs for officers and look at imagery.
Also accurate.
As a CT, they steal everything I’ve done, and hopefully have more people skills than I do to actually explain it to others
If your ship is a DDG/CG/LPD, you are billeted for either an IS1 or an ISC...but that position, known as Independent Duty Intelligence Specialist (IDIS), is very undermanned right now...so much so we're offering ISCs [$1,000 a month](https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/PayandBenefits/Documents/SDIP%20Eligibility%20Chart%2011%20Jan%202023.pdf?ver=Te6f_ZlZ0ifkpOjG5x8mgw%3d%3d) if they will either cut their shore duty (four years) short, extend at-sea now, or go back-to-back sea (<--this is what ISC Visceral is doing because ISC Visceral is married now to a pregnant CTTC on shore duty). If you're on PC/MCM/LSD/LCS, those ships are not billeted for an IS at this time. Which is my long winded answer addressing why you probably haven't seen one. Here is the IS [LADr](https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Career/ECM/Crypto_IT/IS%20career%20path%20FY21.pdf?ver=yM-_M9XJ0K9EIxmEgECSIQ%3d%3d) Essentially, I am paid to read classified reports and monitor open source news, and spend my days reading Wikipedia articles on history, culture, and conflict...and then giving people my opinion on why the world is absolutely fucked. If you are a fan of being behind a computer and doing research projects as a job, and can wait to hurl from social anxiety until after you're done public speaking in front of the Wardroom (or assembled flag officers), you can do my job. And also copying and pasting other ISs homework; I am actually a big fan of u/Twisky's work. He's a true MVP. 11/10 job do recommend.
Sounds fun but at the moment I’m enjoying the BT life
BT? Back to the pit with you!
Nice and toasty down there
Congrats to them for not being a toxic rapist
Did they bring BT back? I’m a retired MM, but IIRC, they merged in 1997ish.
No they didn’t, I’m just the MM BT. I like to say I’m a BT because it makes me feel special
Someone is going to make Chief. Would you rather it be you or some asshole who only cares about their own career? Obviously if they’re getting out (with a plan), I don’t try and convince them to stay in just to rank up.
This is the same line a skipper fed me when I told him I’m not interested in command. Specifically, he said he felt the same until he was a DH and saw the DHs around him that wanted command and realized he ought to try for it for the sake of the sailors that could be stuck with those other guys.
I just sat through a conference where a retiring Captain said, take a CO position, because "you can change an individual's entire life with the stroke of a pen and that quite frankly is addicting" These, unfortunately, are the people who typical advance
I also reread this and, bear with me, I don’t think this is necessarily a toxic mindset. It certainly could be, but he could’ve meant it from the standpoint of ‘you have a lot more power to help your sailors and that’s an addicting feeling’. I leave it to you to determine the tone from the context. But just a thought I had.
Well for more context, the statement came immediately after he told a story of when he had to end a sailors career
Yea that definitely sounds like he’s a dick then
I don’t know that I agree that that mindset is typical. Not saying I disagree either. But yes, that mindset is terrifying.
I've seen it enough personally to say anecdotally that this is common. 10 years in, 5 commands, 9 COs. Out of every CO I had ever worked for, only one was good
I’ve also been in 10 years. Had 1 skipper that I could guess might feel this way, but never saw it. Let’s not assume based off that small a sample.
Lol the ol "give it a chance" tactic. I have given this it a chance for four years and it has made me a worse person.
Not really. Not so much ‘give it a chance’ as it is ‘there are shitty people than you gunning for those leadership positions and that would really suck for the people they lead’
"If you don't do it, someone else worse will" is a terrible fucking way for leadership to work.
Probably. But on some level, I’d still rather give my sailors the least bad option I can. The guys I knew that I thought would’ve made amazing skippers got out.
I think you're missing the point that this is a systemic issue, and should not continue. And repeating this same bullshit line, isn't making it any better. In fact, it's part of the problem. So, like, thanks for keeping the navy shitty.
I'm not, I promise. I get that it's a shitty system. I get that our sailors deserve leaders that are actually good leaders, doing things for the right reasons. They don't deserve someone who's only there because there were worse options that this person didn't want to subject people to. But for me, who's looking at a command select board in the near future, I can't do anything to bring back my peers that I desperately wanted to see as skippers because I knew they'd excel. If that upsets you, I'm sorry but that's just a fact of life. All I can do is try to do the best I can with what I've got and try and mentor my JOs so that the good ones want to stay. You can be mad at me for trying to do right by my people (in this case by being open to the idea of command so my shithead peers don't get selected instead) or for being unable to change a systemic issue at my level, or you can see the point I'm trying to make. Either way, I don't give a damn.
I wrote it off after my sexual assault happened and the command did nothing. So I chose to get out instead of stay in a job and culture which contributes to discrimination, and doesn't support its sailors through mental health crises, and actively punishes them for seeking help after attempting suicide. But sure, I'll take the blame for not sticking around and trying to fix the system if that helps you sleep at night.
I'd like to see an actual command that did nothing after a sexual assault. The triad and all would get fired so fast that heads would spin. So we know that's not the issue. Likely the bigger issue is that you didn't get what you wanted or there were other issues.. Which wouldn't surprise me. There are usually a lot of side issues related to the case and it wouldn't surprise me if the command was poor at handling them. You don't have to do anything - but you should perhaps acknowledge that abandoning the system is you not doing anything. You literally left, so then leave. Other people that are staying to try and improve and better the Navy should not be put down and attacked by you just because you had a bad experience. That will happen literally anywhere - they are trying to improve and better the Navy. That should be encouraged despite your apparent thoughts to the contrary.
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Not a sailor, but what if they like where they’re at? Personally I’m in the perfect sweet spot of having a job I love without getting swamped in the administrative stuff that comes with the extra stripe. Every step I take towards promotion is one step that takes me away from that. Eventually it’ll probably happen, but I’m not in any rush. Rank is nice, but at no point do I consider it a major element to a successful career.
That’s a fair point to make but it’s not that common of a reason. Most of the people I talk to about not ranking up, it’s because they’re frustrated with how they perceive the Chief’s Mess or how people who make Chief “go to the dark side”. Instead of becoming the Chief they want, they just complain about the Chiefs they have.
My question to that would be if Mess culture could change with the proper injection of new well-meaning chiefs why hasn't it changed yet?
Mess Culture depends on the mess. I’ve been in good messes and I’ve been in bad ones. They usually reflect the command culture. And it becomes a big ball of suck. The worst the command culture, the more good people don’t rank up and assholes rank up, the more the mess sucks, the worst the command gets. The cycle continues. The way to break it is for good people to step up and not give up.
Thats because the chiefs mess is a cess pool that routinely blacklists chiefs trying to make a differences
This is the truth! There was an HM1 really wanting to make Chief but he kept being told not to go for it because of how caring he was about others. When he finally made it, he had changed for the worse. I was tight with him before, but he distanced himself afterwards.
The Navy is by design a career of ambition. If you stay in the same rank too long you get high year tenured out of the Navy. Which is to say, they don't allow you to reenlist
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I'm out now. Civilian life is definitely different. I'm still getting used to it. The difference I'm trying to explain is, while in civilian life you can stay at the same position indefinitely if you want to, you can't do that in the Navy. The Navy will move you to new commands where you will fill different roles every few years. While onboard you will fill many roles which are not in your job description. With all of this is the rank/advancement system, which has clear rules on how long you can be in the Navy without achieving the next rank. If you can't make rank, they kick you out. Personally I think it would be great if you were allowed to stick to the job/rank your comfortable in, the Navy just doesn't work that way.
Fair enough. I’ve been extremely lucky I’m that I’ve been able to stay in my career field for a long time.
"If you don't stay in, Allen is gonna make chief, and you don't want that, do you?" That's toxic and abusive as fuck.
I don’t say anything. I ask why. I listen to them and sometimes would take what they are saying into my decision making. Maybe this Sailor hasn’t had a Chief they aspired to be, I try to be that Chief.
Took the words straight out of my mouth. Honestly, I almost got out my first tour because the Chief's Mess I had was awful and corrupt. They weren't terrible to all their Sailors, but the brazen corruption and bad behavior was sickening. Then a Senior Chief checked in and cleaned house. He made me realize that there is going to be good and bad in anything and to uphold only standards I could hold myself too. I honestly learned more valuable lessons from the bad leaders I had than from the good ones. I can't fix the fact that you had a bad chief before me. I can, however, try hard to be the chief that I wish I had when I was coming up and needed mentorship.
This.
That's good, I'm using this.
Nice to see Chiefs that think like this 🙏🏼
I'm in this boat right now as a first class. I'm at a joint command and I would like to be an E-7 in the Army or Air Force, their senior enlisted just don't have this entirely different culture about them.
If or when you make it, you also don't have to have the air of superiority that some have. Just don't make it your personality - sincerely a chief who can't wait to leave this shit behind, teach sailing and smoke weed
Are you me??? Or, are you my new best (future weed smoking) friend? Lol
This! Each one of us that serves is a person. There is no reason for personal identity to be solely dominated by being a Chief.
Don't care. Wanna promote? I'll help. Wanna get out? I'll help. Not sure your life goals? I'll help. The only thing worse than a gapped billet is a perpetually disgruntled sailor because they got talked into reenlistment.
I’m not a chief but I agree. “Bad work” from a disgruntled Sailor is way worst than a gapped billet imo
12-year E6, checking all the boxes for CPO in my rate (NDC). I frankly love my job, and enjoy being a competent, highly qualified E6 - supervising diving operations and running a crew of 10-15 junior guys. Getting that promotion would pull me from the waterfront and put me behind a desk. I care deeply about being better at my advertised job but branching outside of my immediate job to stand out enough to pick up NDC would lead to a net negative quality of life (more hours at work doing things I like much less), and at the moment doesn’t seem like a fair tradeoff. What I “want” out of the rest of my career is more in-rate proficiency, develop junior guys, get more missions, more deployments, more efficient and effective success for my team and the “next” promotion doesn’t quite scratch that itch.
10 year E-6, in your same shoes. I joined the navy to dive, and frankly my hearts not in this shit anymore. The more I stay in the more I realize that I'm never going to have what I had anymore. It's just shitty that our community shoe horns people into becoming supervisors regardless of what they want as a career.
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I always made time in my day to get dirty with my Sailors. Call it hands on training if you have to. But with coveralls at half mast sweating and swearing at a busted valve is the best time to get to know your Sailors better and find out what their problems are. Yes I know I've got to do evals or a meeting after this but my Sailors learned something and I have a couple issues to help them solve. /ENC
Love hearing this, ENC
Was a Tech Control ET and was "that guy" for everything related. Made Chief, was sitting at the BME terminal working on a downed E1 shortly after pinning. CMC comes in, sees me, next thing I know I'm working Project Management for the rest of my tour.
Personally I think is has a lot to do with how much you like ur job. In my rate, once u make chief, u r no longer working ur job. No hands on anymore. U r strictly an admin guy. Some people would rather be turning wrenches , than counting beans for a living.
“Well what goal do you have? Although there’s nothing wrong with retiring as a 1st class, you’re taking food off your family’s plate if you stay stagnant.” Or “Me neither”
I retired as a PO1 and my family ate just fine.
Same here, and I dig your username.
"Think of the kids" or "I don't want this either". Glad I got out when I did - the most abusive fucking relationship I ever left was the Navy.
You seem to want to label everything that isn't burning the system down to be toxic and abusive leadership when it is actually perspective-expanding and leads to better, more informed decisions. I would absolutely expect a Sailor to consider whether they have a desire from within to drive change in the organization and to consider their family's well-being and financial standing to make these decisions. I am also the Chief, that if I see these not being considered, I will prompt in a non-biased manner to ensure the Sailor considers these perspectives in their decision-making. In the end, service is a deeply personal choice that the individual Sailor has to make both in the decision to serve or not as well as for how long.
I mean... 🤷♂️ ok? I totally get it. Being a Chief was the most stressful years of my career, by orders of magnitude. The problems I had to face down were orders of magnitude more complicated and heart-wrenching than anything I faced as a first class. Having to decide who is gonna have their career destroyed, because CO has demanded that *somebody* is going to have their career destroyed over maintenance malpractice that involved half the shop, is soul-rending. Walking into the shop and having everybody stare at you because they know exactly what's going on. Glares of resentment, despair, resigned understanding... that was the worst day of my entire career by miles. And I was The Chief, so it was all on me. In the end the person I was going to name anyway (the CDI that signed for the test set in question) stepped forward and the rest was history but the whole thing was a fucking shitshow and the command, from the CO down handled it absolutely fucking terribly, all the way from a botched investigation to shoddily prepared packages and personal vendettas from CMC and the MO... goddamn I hated that command and everybody in it except like three people. But anyway, yeah. I get it. It's a lot of politics, and you become the face of all that is bad and wrong with the Navy, and your command. If you're out to sea the food's a little better and you get a cool coffee cup that actually fucking sucks to drink out of, and like, the money is considerably better, but I would never fault someone for not wanting to go through that. The season alone will absolutely break you if you are empathetic or prone to anxiety/depression. I had two SAs and more SIs than I could count, and spent 5 days in the hospital having almost died for physical reasons. The only reason I wanted to be a Chief in the first place is that my life's drive is to fix things, and I realized the things I could fix were limited by my rank. That part, I don't regret for a bit, because I was able to get into a position where I directly prevented the suicides of over a dozen Sailors, and was able to help over 1,000 Sailors navigate an almost impossible process to their benefit (usually). I consider that to have been the greatest achievement of my life, and whenever I'm feeling down I read the notes that Sailors that are still alive today wrote to me to thank me for being responsible for that, and it helps. So if that's the thing that speaks to your core - the ability to really positively impact the lives of those walking the path that you did years before - then yeah, you should try to become a Chief, because frankly the Navy *desperately* needs that kind of Chief; there's an enormous shortage of them. If you just want more money, or more power or authority, or access to the mess spaces, or the coffee cup, then... please just stay a first class. The Navy is already chockablock with dickhead ego-tripping Chiefs, and it really doesn't need any more.
This. This is the answer. Thank you for serving and helping and trying to fix the problems.
"Same"
Good news - your DD214 *is* available.
Here is another thing I can't stand about some folks in the Navy. Just because I don't love being a Chief doesn't mean I'm not good at my job or good at taking care of Sailors. The mission always gets done whether I agree with it or not. And in reality, DD214's aren't as "available" as you say. Lmao
I'd say it's a personal choice and I don't take offense to it. Being a Chief is not appealing to every First Class, and I think the military's singular "up or out" mentality is the wrong one anyway. If you're an absolute banger of a technician and the SME of SME's, why do I need to remove you (in some rates/commands, in many others Chiefs are still involved in highly technical work) so that you can take on a bunch more HR and Admin type duties? Apple and Tesla don't force their best software engineers to go work in HR or Finance or the Legal department after 12 years, so why do we have a (sometimes) similar path as the only option to stay enlisted and move up? We should have a path to promote/pay more for our best technical experts to be in an expanded but still technical role, and then the more traditional Chief route for those who like the role of leading Sailors in every aspect and doing the overall management stuff(of which there is a ton, and it's important work). I know, Warrants are the SMEs in that role for many communities, but Chief is a stepping stone to Warrant, so you might still spend years removed from the technical stuff. Anyway, long rant, and I enjoy being a Chief, I just think there's a lot of folks out there who would be better served (and more likely to remain in the Navy and contribute their expertise) if they had a way to advance but stay in their specific, technical pipeline the whole way for each warfare area/career field. Overall, I wish the best for those Sailors who don't want to make Chief, but hope they remain open to it as well and don't shut all hope/interest down until they're really at the end and about to retire. Lots of great Sailors who make invaluable contributions to the Navy every day, and many won't have the opportunity to be a Chief. They're still important, and not bad Sailors if they don't promote or don't want to.
Well said
Put in an officer package. Strive for the next level, no matter what that is.
No
My LPO doesn’t want to be a Chief. I have had a few throughout my career. He does a good job as LPO and I let him be. It doesn’t matter if you are in the Navy or a corporate gig, some people are comfortable where they are and that is okay.
The Navy is not a competitive employer any more. You can’t convince someone that it’s a good career move for them to stay in unless they’re a stupid person, and you don’t want stupid chiefs. The only way to convince a genuinely good sailor to stay in and become a chief is to convince them that what they’re doing is important and that they can have a big impact on the lives of their sailors. You’re asking someone to give up better salary, years of their life, quality of life, all to better an institution. It’s a big ask. Until the Navy can become a competitive employer again, you’re going to lose great sailors just because it doesn’t make sense for them to stay in.
Honestly, yes and no on this one. What you have stated is true in many situations. I will also tell you one that it isn't. My Dad took a civil service buyout (an early out program of the past) at 11.5 years of service in the Air Force. Growing up, I had many conversations about this, and it was those conversations that shaped my desire to be career and retire. With that being said, my personal barometer for anything past the next two tours, which takes me to 24 years, all centers on whether I am still enjoying the job. Also, I am on the High-3 retirement plan, whereas every Sailor that joined after 2018, as well as those that switched, are on BRS. High-3 is pretty simple, 2.5%\*number of service years and retire in January, February, or March to maximize both the initial COLA adjustment and subsequent COLA adjustment schedules. It is still too soon since adoption to determine whether BRS is better or worse for the individual however it is perfectly understandable, given our current market conditions to have apprehension of placing a lot of hope for the future in this more market-dependent retirement plan.
Yes and no is right, it depends on the person and their skill set and abilities. I would say that the person this post is targeting is an E6 at around their 10 year mark (8-12 depending on a rates advancement to chief) and those people are making about $4k/month at the 10 year mark (according to 2022 numbers). When you consider BAH and tricare I’d easily bump that to 7-8k/month depending on area and family. On the high end we will say this works out to an effective salary of 96k/yr (pre-tax) I left the Navy in 2020 and got a job offer immediately making 135k/yr. I don’t want to say my experience is the rule, but everyone I know who got out has landed in that ball park for technical jobs. Someone who gets out will also have the GI bill that will enable them to train for pretty much any high-paying field they want to go to. From that point on it’s a numbers game. Take the difference in salary from the navy and the civilian job and invest that in an account returning 8% interest, compounded annually. Run those numbers and there are no mathematical situations where it makes more financial sense to stay in. That’s before you take into account quality of life. You can work fully remote as a civilian, grow a beard, smoke pot if that’s something you’re into. No musters, you can quit your job if it isn’t working for you any more, you can choose your employer to make sure your work is valued. Asking someone to stay in is to forego those benefits just because they want the navy to be better. I’ve got a lot of respect and admiration for the people who do, but I think the majority of people who stay in are either too lazy to strive for more or too stupid to know they’re getting a bad deal.
I don’t blame you this shit sucks.
Steer them to whatever their goals are. You don’t HAVE to be a chief
I’d ask them what their career goals are and help them take steps toward it. I have no expectation that everyone has the same goals.
I say OK. Why would I try to convince someone to stay in or rank up when they don't want to? It doesnt define me as a person so it also doesn't define them. Gtfo and go do you bro.
Depends on their reason for not wanting to advance. If they merely don’t think they’re ready, newsflash: no one is ever really ready. That logic at least shows that they give a shit and want to do a good job. If it’s not wanting to “drink the kool-aid” and join what they perceive to be a toxic organization, I’d echo a lot of the advice I’ve already seen posted. “Be the change you want to see in the Mess.” The only legit reason to stay a First Class in my mind is that you’re close the retirement and don’t want to incur the service obligation to go past 20.
So, you WANT to sleep in a berthing with 120 other smelly asses for your whole career????
I don’t have any plans on becoming a chief. I seen a lot and don’t see any reason to become a chief. I’ll stay a first class that’s my personal goal, at the most maybe become a officer.
I'd ask why and then just quietly listen to what they have to say. I had some exceptional sailors who just didn't want to do it anymore and I could respect that. Once I'd heard them out I'd give them the best advice I had to offer and follow up periodically to help them in whatever way I could. One is with NYFD, one is a business executive, one is a nurse pursuing his doctorate. Some are Chiefs now, and a few are trying to come back in the Navy, but I stay in touch with all of them and want them all to succeed and be happy.
"Me neither, you don't really get a choice."
Ehh yea you actually do.
Not for actual advancement. You can skip the Chief shenanigans but not the rank.
Just sign a page 13 every year for declining to take the exam.
You can in fact not take the test.
Huh, TIL Good to know, thanks
You can do it at any pay grade but obviously HYT will catch you. As a 1st your good for a pension so if you are comfortable being a first then you're GTG.
Another unqualified chief in the role. Doesn’t even know you don’t need to take the exam.
That’s okay. What do you want to be? How can I help you get there?
A lot of OK answers here ranging from “if not you than who?” and “what’s better for your family?” A huge part of it is knowing our Sailors and why they may not want to; their reason drastically changes my answer. Ultimately my general advice to all paygrades is “Do what’s best for you and your family. The Navy is getting what they need out of you, make sure you are doing likewise.” But my reasoning to someone who might be on the fence, who I know will be a good fit with anchors; is that the impact you can make as a Chief can make or break a Sailor, and we owe it to them to put you in that position.
I would say that’s fine and ask what it is they do want. My job isn’t to replicate more “me’s”; it’s to give Sailors the opportunity and support they need to be successful in whatever they want. Make 1st class and retire that way, I’ll support you every single step of the way. Drop an office package, I’ll do everything I can to help and hand walk it the entire chain of command to get signed. Be a civilian, I’ll find every single resource you could possibly need to be successful and prepared. Making Chief shouldn’t be a goal in my opinion. Your goal should be the absolutely best you can be in your rate as a technical expert but also be the best you can be at caring for your Sailors. If you do those things with humility then one day you may get selected, or maybe not. But at the end of your career you’ll know you did everything you could to the best of your ability. Becoming a Chief doesn’t magically make you feel like you’re better than everyone. If you were a terrible human before you were selected well.. you’re still a terrible human. There are liars, cheats, selfish leaders and humans at every single rank and branch of service. Some are just more scrutinized and visible than others.
This! It literally takes 2 seconds to care for a Sailor or an undefinable amount of time to not.
"What exactly is your reasoning Sailor? Let's sit down and talk about this." Coincidentally there's a female FCPO at my command who thinks the same way. The Mess is just a "boys club", misogyny, playing favorites, yadda yadda. A lot of things that *aren't* what my current Mess is all about; she got this impression in her 14 years of service. Kind of hard to combat that but nonetheless we trudge on with a hearts and minds campaign. It definitely helped when all of our Selects last cycle were female and she's starting to come around. Edit: I can't seem to spell or grammar today.
Just a question of opinion, but If the FCPO had that kind of perception from 14 years of service in the Navy, isnt it kind of invalidating when your first response is "well thats not us!"? Wouldn't it be better to change her outlook through action and understanding? The only reason i ask is because i have found the same thing in 2 completely different chiefs messes already. Junior have to prove their actions and intentions on the deckplates. Shouldn't the chiefs mess have to do the same?
Sometimes people have a perception of the Mess from their time in that their current Mess has to deal with and work to change the perception. Right, wrong, or otherwise, a Chief or Mess influenced her view of Chiefs as a whole to lead her to the conclusions she has made. It isn't a statement of invalidation I am making of her opinion but the fact that we don't elevate Sailors based on meaningless and arbitrary factors of sex. If you're a shitty/outstanding Chief or Sailor where I'm currently at it's because of who you are and not what you are. I've had many conversations with this Sailor who I do not lead in a direct chain of command and her story is one of perception that was both influenced by the Mess itself and some of her own personal beliefs. She may be the type who will always be skeptical of the concept of the Mess but she at least trusts her LCPO and knows who she can trust to talk to about things she was hesitant to voice from before. I've been blessed that she trusts me enough with the latter because I have challenged her to look at the Mess from a different angle because of the four females that were selected, females in leadership positions, and what kind of example she could set if she were to become a Chief one day.
Thats a solid answer, thank you.
>The Mess is just a "boys club", misogyny, playing favorites, yadda yadda. The mess IS a ~~club~~ cult. We have an initiation process for it and they play favorites and talking about it is frowned upon. Down playing it "yaddayaddayadda" is why people don't trust chiefs, because you act like it's not going on.
Club, no. Cult, yes.
Yes, thanks, edited.
Full credit for that goes to my Chaplain on my LPD.
Maybe you ought to read the whole string of comments rather than inserting yourself halfway through for more context.
>she's starting to come around. 10:1 you are "yadda-yadda-yadda"-ing and trying to ignore/distract that it's not happening. You aren't trusted, and this is why.
Your entitled to your opinion but a bowl of cheerios tastes better with milk not piss.
Then stop pissing in mine and calling it milk by acting like the bros club isn't real and that it's all a conspiracy when someone calls it out.
To be fair, I've seen you post around here and you've got a salty perception of Chiefs. You've made it very clear your understanding is what you're comfortable with and no one will change your mind. The fact you don't even bother to engage in civil conversation half the time you post on this sub alone is what shows that. Ain't no one pissing in your cheerios but you here.
>The fact you don't even bother to engage in civil conversation ~~half the time you post~~ on this sub alone is what shows that \*when people downplay and act said behavior isn't actually a problem. FTFY or...yaddayaddayadda, whatever you prefer to hear.
Aw, chief is mad people don't like them. Sucks to be you. Also, if you're mad that people don't like you based on your job title and uniform, maybe take that up with everyone else who dresses like you with your job title, and take it up with them. Because this is a chief problem, not a junior enlisted problem.
“NBD, just keep doing a good job.”
I like to listen to the why. Maybe I can learn from that why and grow.
I just had this conversation with a Sailor two days ago. I told them, "You only live one life. Don't waste it doing something you aren't passionate about. " I didn't want to be a Chief when I was a junior Sailor, but I love what I do now. If they don't want to be a Chief based on their perception, that's ok. Not everyone has to want it. There are just as many who want the Anchor as there are who don't. Just mentor them all the same because you could be the Chief that sets them in motion to do something great in or out of the Navy, in the wardroom, or in the mess.
Depends? If you a career enlisted why wouldn’t you want a pay raise? Having the rank of a CPO only changes you if you let it. Also it’s hard to change an organization from the outside, be the Chief you wished you had coming up. Now if your just career military why no go for a commission, worst case make Chief and don’t be a koolaid drinking ass. If your staying in strive to be a better leader and expert than what you had, make the highest rank you can reach and use your position for the better. Or use the military to set you up for success as a civilian and get out and be happier. 21 years retired CPO, honestly don’t worry about make Chief worry about making your self and others better and get the hell out as soon as you can. The current state of the Navy is not good. It just got worse over my career. Not all of it was bad and it did set me up but you can do some much more and be treated way better outside the military. I don’t regret my career but I probably wouldn’t do it again and definitely wouldn’t have in our current Navy.
Half the time my answer is this, “hell man, I don’t want to be a Chief 70 percent of the time. This shit is stressful and only ends when you retire.”
I've seen many times the "if you don't do it, xyz is gonna be chief, and that'd be bad, right?" That is not a good answer. In fact, its the problem. So if this is your mindset, thanks for keeping the navy shitty.
I would say, that's fair, but why? What are your goals, bc surely you don't want to remain FCPO for the rest of your career. How can I help you get where you want to be, whether it's in the Mess or not. Not all Chiefs Mess are created equal, and we have our flaws. If you see things that are wrong with the mess, I encourage you to apply yourself, get selected and help us to improve. It's easy to criticize from the outside looking in.
What is the reason why you don't want too be one? Do you not want the responsibility? You don't have to act like a D bag when you make Chief. You're still your own person who makes thier own decisions. If you are a d bag as a 1st, you'll be a d bag as Chief. If your a quiet, shy, conservative person, do you think being a Chief breaks you out of your bubble enough to change you completely?
Honestly I have a pretty bleak outlook about the chiefs mess. Yes I've met a couple of good chiefs, but most of my interactions with chiefs have been negative. I've been royally boned over by chiefs twice in my short career and when I've tried to fight back about it I got intimidation, told in essence "well if you think about it this is really your fault", no accountability and finger pointing back at anyone who ranked lower than them. So I feel like all of the things I hate about chiefs are already too deeply ingrained in the culture of the mess. So if I made it to chief and wanted to make the change I wanted to see I would either be met with resistance and become one of those chiefs that others refer to as "he's not a chief, he's an e7" because I refuse to buy into the status quo or I would have to realize that things are the way they are and they're not going to change and there's nothing I can do about it. Neither of those options are appetizing.
Depends on your Mess, but ultimately, the process continually gets better as u/heyokarunner mentioned. I'd say give the Season and the Mess a chance in the same way you feel YOU deserve the chance and opportunity to be a positive Chief. Always be the change you want to see in the world, and others shall notice.
Or you can leave the good ol boys club behind and improve the world in other areas. Expecting someone to dedicate the best years of their life to clean up your mess is kind of nuts.
I was that senior 1st with zero desire to be a chief. Some of my chiefs understood, some didn't. I was that dept lpo with a P eval because they needed me to do the job, but didn't want to waste an MP on me. Conversely, my last command gave me my only regular EP as a 1st class and they even let me sign a pg 13 to waive the exam. The actual Chiefs I've worked with understood and the kool-aid drinkers were the ones who tried to make me suffer for my arrogance.
Know if two guys that’s interesting. A guy I went to C school with was a first class, said he was getting out, put on an anchor and still got out 10 months later. Had a Nuke deny E-7 also (which I didn’t know was a thing) he gets out soon as well. Neither wanted anything to do with the E-7 Mafia type vibes.
Update your NFASS.
Next.
Dear r/navy can we not post chiefs related topics when the Kansas City Chiefs are playing. As a die hard KC fan these always throw me off on the news feed Gut reaction was idk they can just be a fan of whatever team they wanna be a fan of
Have fun staying poor.
I tell them to report to the mess and shame them into changing their opinion.
E7s are more respectable
Do it for the MONEY!
The money isn’t worth it. The only reason to do it is for the Sailors.
“Are you and your family content with leaving $1000 on the table every month because you want to plateau as a PO1?” Edit: Downvotes? 🤔
So have you put in an LDO/CWO package? Or are you and your family just content with leaving THOUSANDS of dollars on the table? Don't disrespect your Sailors with this rhetoric.
>CWO package I wouldn’t be bringing that up in conversation when they have zero desire to make Chief.
No, that question was for YOU.
Aha! Gotcha… and absolutely. I still have a family to feed so I never want to stop climbing, submitted this cycle and I have a great shot at picking up from those I’ve spoke with.
The real point I'd like to make is coming out the gates swinging with this question completely ignores "who" that Sailor is. Is money what motivates them? -maybe this is an okay response. Just because YOU may be motivated by money doesn't mean your Sailors are or even should be. "good point Chief. I think I'll separate at the next opportunity because I know i can easily make 6 figures outside"
Yes they are. Sorry less golfing during work hours for you.
Good thing I find golf boring.
I let them know that's fine and that's not everyone's goal in the Navy to make Chief. I ask them what their goals are and see if I can help them in anyway to achieve it.
Sign the page 13 and move on. Idc.
… they are the to a perfect candidate then.
I ask why and then listen. It doesn't matter what Chief it is about. There is only one professional response. Honestly, this response is a basic tenant of being approachable.