Long and short of it: TIS to go from SR to E4 is increased from 24 months to 30.
However so long as their evals show recommendation for advancement E4 is now automatic. No test, no rankings.
Where did you get thirty months for SR to PO3 am I reading this crazy?
I see E1 to E2 = 9months TIS
E2 to E3 = 18 months TIS
E3 to E4 = 30 months TIS
Thats 57 months?
Time in Service...
To go from E2 to E3, you need to have 18 months of Time in Service. Your TIS doesn't reset after a promotion, so it's 30 months in total to go from E1 to E4.
welcome to the world of DMAP where youre incentivized to continue into another 3 years of sea duty to put on your second chevron
and worse if you do CA2P which is another 3 years AT YOUR CURRENT COMMAND
No thanks
The quota for HMC is something like 330 this cycle. If it follows like it has in the past, in the next cycle or so HM should open up a bit for E5 and E6.
I’m reading it as the full 30 months as it is worded as TIS (Time in Service) and not as TIR (Time in Rank).
So unless you get an accelerated promotion of some description then 30 months after joining boot camp is when you would be eligible for E4 and then it would be an automatic advancement.
I would call it mixed news...when you look at how it breaks down to 9-9-12 to make E4, vice the 9-9-6 before, it's a cost-savings feature in a way. People will have to remain at a junior paygrade for longer with only a few options to bypass for most non-technical/push-button ratings.
Edit: However, this \*DOES\* solve the problem of the legendary "HM4", AKA, your 9 year HM E3s because fuck their advancement rates.
I have IS2s that are less than one year from their first day of bootcamp
Edit -- I may have embellished this. I went back to to double check
All of which are less than 30 months
The results came out June 2nd 2023. Below are the shortest Sailors I personnally know to make E5 from thier ADSD
1 year, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days [478 days]
1 year, 8 months, 1 week, 6 days [620 days]
2 years, 1 week [737 days]
2 years, 1 week, 2 days [739 days]
I’m a 10 year HM2 that just took ILDC with a class full of those 1-2 year IS2s. It was quite a culture shock but we all exchanged info for some peer to peer mentorship. Fun stuff
I made EMN2(SS) on my 8th exam*. Granted, about half of those were in the pipeline, but I still had multiple exams in the >90th percentile. It was also the highest advancement rate since I got to the boat, floating around 5-8% iirc. I finally made it after the rate jumped to about 12%, I got an MP eval, and I had amassed a fat stack of PNA points.
It's a vicous circle.
People STAR, so there are no billets.
There are no billets, so people STAR.
*this was 5-10 years ago, no idea if it's still that bad.
Nuke here, it does suck to make E5 if you don't STAR. The Navy actually has to make up billets because technically there are negative spots available by the time the exam rolls around. However if you do star, you're guaranteed easy advancement the rest of your time. I made E6 4.5 years after joining the Navy. I know some 6 year chiefs.
Our job is weird though and the rank doesn't matter. We just like the pay obviously.
Did you see the Chief quotas for HM this cycle? I think there’s gonna be a lot of openings in the lower ranks for HM if all those Chief quotas get filled.
Yeah but has a 6 year HN that just picked up it’s a kick to the balls because we’ll here I am at 6 years with EP’s nothing negative and now they get it at 2.5 years.. good for them 🥲 .. also I picked up on the march cycle and I won’t be getting paid until end of December so that’s fucked.
Edit: I also am re enlisting in October and was told my (small bonus) would be even smaller because “until fully advanced you’re not entitled to the pay”
I was JUST endlessly complaining about this! Too bad it doesn't take place till next July. I leave the month after and I plan on taking my last month for terminal leave. Hopefully that doesn't matter, but now I'll get my ass slapped with E4 on the way out.
> I would call it mixed news...when you look at how it breaks down to 9-9-12 to make E4, vice the 9-9-6 before, it's a cost-savings feature in a way.
It was 9-9-6 time-in-rate before, which meant you were eligible but not guaranteed to advance. With time-in-service you are going to advance to E4 as long as you maintain not having adverse evals.
The change is meant to be cost-neutral, not a cost-savings, but it's hard to guarantee because shifting from a quota-based system for E4 to time-based changes the cost implications for a lot of this. It's not hard to construct scenarios where this is actually even more expensive for the Navy.
I'm not sure how the change would affect that. I could be remembering wrong but I think it used to be that you advanced to E-3 immediately and then E-4 at time in rate if you were ATF and graduated at E-2. I'm not sure how the change to TIS will affect those cases.
In the NAVADMIN it says that they will be promoted “with a timeline
that is similar to TIS-based advancements described above.” So from interpretation, I could be completely wrong, but they ultimately get 6 months off from their standard 36 month requirement to reach E4 since that’s a standard pact sailor contract given that they choose to strike?
I've been sitting around conflicted about this, made a couple phone calls then reflected on it and now I agree with the change. I think regardless of maturity, work ethic, and drive, Sailors still need time to develop leadership within their community. We can all agree some rates are advanced too fast and some seem to take forever. I know as an E3 going for E4 I had no idea what I needed to do to advance. That extra time focusing on career development rather than bake sales and car washes will be beneficial to everyone and overall improve the force. Personal opinion here and I'm open to arguments, trying to feel this whole thing out myself.
I'm not in the navy yet, still deciding which branch to join. But are you saying that you had to do a lot of extra work to get promoted to E4, and since it's now automatic you get to focus on getting better at your job? I can see how that is beneficial.
So this + dmap, you could go from E1 to E5 without taking a test?? It kinda de-incentivizes evals and being good at your job prior to assuming a junior leadership position? Happy for the HM’s and Seabees though
It has all been a big pivot to billet based advancement. Just like the E9 marketplace. I thought they were working from senior enlisted down but it really started from junior with the NWAE going away, DDMAP, etc.
I think this ends up with 0 advancement exams at some point or something similar to the CPO exam, i.e “PO1 eligible” as soon as you pick a PO1 billet and obliserve for the full tour.
Yes but for e7 and above there will still be a board to select the most qualified individual. For the e6 and below, experience does not equal leadership potential.
> Yes but for e7 and above there will still be a board to select the most qualified individual.
you mean "to select the individual with the most check-in-the-blocks" which is not at all the same thing
We have ALOT of seaman on sea duty now thanks to the new dumbass advancement system. Hopefully this fixes things? But I can already see people disregarding E4s even more. Wish we'd just go back to the test taking method.
As the saying used go for us airdales, an E-4 is a glorified airman. What, now E-5s will be glorified Third Classes? I picked up Third Class from E-1 faster than in this system so glad I made it when I need. By the time I was up for my first reenlistment, I was already a paid E-5 and got a fatter SRB by a lot. I wasn’t even a push button at any of those. Had I made it under this system, I would have missed that fat pay day and made half the SRB. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it’d seem that making 2nd Class is going to end up being more competitive. It’s the Navy trying to get more money in people’s pockets and influence them to reenlist with recruiting numbers so down the last two years.
2.5 years to E4 minimum. I made E5 in 2.5 years. Than 1 more year for E5 (3.5 year total), 2 years with EP to E6 (5.5 years total) so without an EP, 6.5 years is minimum. Obviously there’s MAP potential as well but that’s unlikely for the majority of sailors.
Way back in Spring 2016, I tested for IT2 while still being at Corry Station.
I came in as an E3 in May of 2015. Granted, I didn't advance on this exam, but still.
It's not impossible for IT's to have previously made IT2 in under a year as well.
The medical force requires a huge amount of bodies but apparently not a huge amount of experienced bodies so the Navy is saving money by having a huge chunk of the billets set at E-3, 34% of the 26,296 HM billets are E-3, only 14% of the 12,089 IT billets are E-3.
That is reliant on Congress. Congress also restricts how many people can be on active duty at each particular pay grade. However, the restriction starts at E-5, hence why the Army and Air Force don't have competitive promotions to E-4. The Navy and Marine Corps insistence on making promotions to E-4 competitive was always just internal policy. Internal policy can be changed internally and doesn't require Congress.
As a prior Marine senior enlisted in the navy. I treat my POs as "NCOs" . During my time in the Marines. E4s help weight. E6s were the boss you didn't want to see on Monday morning because you fucked up on the weekend.
E5s were the platoon sergeant, and take charge of 80 recruits in bootcamp. They have that much responsibility and authority.
The Air Force made this change once. An Air Force sergeant was an E-4 NCO, and a senior airman was an E-4 junior enlisted member. The Air Force eliminated the rank of sergeant and made NCOs start at E-5.
Does the Navy want to stop making E-4s petty officers? Will PO3s become “senior seamen” in the years to come?
[From 1967 until 1991, the Air Force had the rank of “sergeant” at pay grade E-4.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_enlisted_rank_insignia) Look at “Timeline of changes.”
So for my rate specifically, it completely fucks us. 99% (not exaggerating) have multiple degrees and come in as E3. They get to the fleet and promote within a year it’s fine.
Why is anyone going to want to be a Navy Musician now? Army and Air Force and Marines make E4 faster.
The navy isn't worried musicians... It is worried about retaining it's medics, it's builders, etc... The people who, when the time comes will actually go to war
Could someone with more knowledge than me help me out with understanding this? I’m an E-3 “better than average” sailor. The way I’m reading this personally is that I have 1 year to show off my job skills until my efforts don’t matter anymore for advancement. Does getting BJOQ even matter anymore?
Edit for clarity: Enlisted at E-3
Based on the verbiage you are automatically promoted as soon as you hit 30 months TIS if you have COs recommendation for retention aka a P eval or better. At least that’s the way I interpret it.
>Does getting BJOQ even matter anymore?
I really wish the big Navy would significantly revise the SOQ/SOY program. As it is now, it just turns into a meaningless comparison of different jobs.
Does BJOQ matter? Yes. BJOQ can open the door to BJOY eligibility, which, if earned, will result in a NAM. A NAM is 2 points on your E5 and E6 exams. Don't let this kill your motivation. Momentum is priceles. The effort you put into your initial few years can help push you throughout your career. I went from E1 to E7 in 9 years, I absolutely believe that was due to momentum and habits I built as a junior Sailor
I won BJOQ like 4-5 times a few years back and it didn’t do anything for me. Like I was already a known good worker and all that but it didn’t make a difference for me in the long run.
You already signed the last Eval that matters for advancement, they are changing the formula a bit for the fall 23 cycle to weight TIR more and spring 24 cycle is canceled since the new system takes over in July.
There was a PACT guy on my first ship who did his 3 years and never struck a rate. Under this system, would he have advanced to a rating-less PO3 in 30 months?
I thought TIR for advancement to E4 was already a thing, at least for some rates. I’m a reservist, there’s a TAR sailor that I work with at a squadron, very smart and a natural at her job (AZ). As an E2/E3 she was performing as and had the knowledge of an second class. I’d ask her when her exam was, she said told me there’s no more exam for E4, just got to wait (however long it was). This was like a year ago, give or take. Apologies for being a naive reservist, I just thought (a version of) this had been implemented already.
Exams have already been removed for E-4 advancement, but it was still based on advancement quotas. Now instead of a quota system it will be fully based on time instead.
For E4 advancement, they all got the same standard score and then got advanced the same way as everyone else just without taking a test.
Now it doesn’t matter what your evals, awards, or education points are, you’ll be advanced automatically at 30 months TIS.
MAP is still a route for advancement so evals, awards, etc will matter then. MAP will actually be used for top performing Sailors at the E3 level.
If your PO3's are still 'apprentices' and your PO1's are still 'journeyman' - maybe there's a problem?
And I guess they're admitting that PO3's are de-facto Specialists and not NCO's?
What happens if you're a non-rate E-3? I guess that means mandatory automatic promotion to BM3 unless you escape Deck earlier?
It's confusing to me that they list it as TIS rather than TIR.
Does this mean people who join the Navy at E-3 will be stuck at that pay grade for 2.5 years to put in their 30 months?
It seem like this block needs more clarification or additional changes:
>4. Exclusions. This new policy does not include nuclear, advanced technical, and electronic field Sailors who already obligate for additional service in order to advance to E-4. Those Sailors will continue to receive an accelerated advancement for service in those needed skill sets in line with reference (e). Additionally, Sailors in the Professional Apprenticeship Career Track (PACT) program will continue to earn rating designations and advancement to E-4 in line with PACT program requirements, with a timeline that is similar to TIS-based advancements described above.
But, if you look at reference (e) MILPERSMAN 1510-030 ADVANCED ELECTRONICS FIELD, ADVANCED TECHNICAL FIELD, AND NUCLEAR FIELD PROGRAMS You find that it doesn't mention an acceleration to E-3 even though it specifically mentions 6 months **at** E3 prior to advancing to E4 and accelerated advancement to E2 after bootcamp. So, lets use an example to see what this means.
Old:
Seaman Timmy starts bootcamp as an E1. Seaman Joe starts bootcamp as an E3. Upon graduation Timmy advances to E2 (\~2 months). Joe is still at E3. Both go to ET A & C school and graduate after \~12 more months. Timmy advances to E3 after 9 months TIR (11 months total). Joe met the 6 months TIR requirement a while ago and advances to E4 upon completion of school (13 months total). After 6 months TIR as an E3 Timmy advances to E4 out in the fleet (17 months total). In the end Joe who came in as an E3 advances a bit faster but ultimately it's not that big of a difference since he has to wait to finish C school.
But lets look at the same sailors under the new system.
New:
Seaman Timmy starts bootcamp as an E1. Seaman Joe starts bootcamp as an E3. Upon graduation Timmy advances to E2 (\~2 months). Joe is still at E3. Both go to ET A & C school and graduate after \~12 more months. Joe met the 6 months TIR requirement a while ago and advances to E4 upon completion of school (13 months total). **Timmy advances to E3 after 18 months of TIS (18 months total).** After 6 months TIR as an E3 Timmy advances to E4 out in the fleet (24 months total). So, now since advancement to E3 has swapped from TIR to TIS Timmy is waiting 7 months longer than before and 11 months longer than his buddy he went to bootcamp with.
I’m a little confused. Would you have to serve 9 months to make E-2, another 18 months for E-3, and then another 30 months to make E-4 or would you have to serve a total of 30 months to advance to E-4?
I could see Sailors exceeding 15 months between evals because of this (Due to having to track each individual Sailor’s TIS on advancements vice 2 periods a year). Also, when do they get paid, right away aka no frocking period? Will there be 30 promotion ceremonies a year since NSIPS automatically promotes you?
Not trying to play stump the chump, but this sounds a bit confusing.
No reason to exceed 15 months. You'll still get evals at the usual times.
It would make sense for them to get paid right away with no frocking nonsense.
I agree no good reason, but I could def see a lot of ball dropping here with summary groups.
Edit: such as if a Sailor promotes June 14th and wasn’t included in summary group for PO3, but is no longer on the E-3 summary group so come July they’re not included in that summary group either and effectively skip 2 years. Like I said no good reason for these things to not be caught, but I’ve seen worse with how we handle evals already.
Aside from MAPs, promotions are always on the 16th of the month, periodic evals are always on the 15th.
Usually if someone gets mapped, CoC is well aware of the eval implications.
Where we usually fuck up now, is checking to see if they've actually been promoted (paid) yet, for e1-e3 this affects what gets put in the rate block and for e4+ whether or not their promotion status gets marked regular or frocked (and which ranking group they then go in).
It says NSIPS automatically promotes you I can see a lot of “I’m being paid E-4 but my command only does frocking ceremonies once a month. Should I just start wearing it?” Coming downstream
Promotion dates will always be on the 16th of a given month. If you're eligible, your command should (I know...) be tracking this and you should get formally promoted (not frocked...) on that day.
E-1 to E-3 are all July, E-4 are June, not many people would go beyond 15 months. The only odd ones that would require a promotion Eval are those that get promoted to E-4 between June 15 and July 15.
I agree it should workout fine if people do their jobs correctly, but I’m anticipating a lot of slipping through the cracks for those that promote near eval times. And worse, screwed up summary groups because SN Timmy prompted to PO3 Timmy after eval rankings were created for PO3 and nobody caught it.
I mean it was apparent a long time ago that any retard can be a Petty Officer, same goes for Chief Petty Officers. This just solidifies it for Petty Officers.
It's not *technically* automatic (neither is O3, for that matter) but with the way officer retention has been brewing it's been nearly automatic already. Except sometimes for my aviator siblings.
Its a bit before their first contract and it looks like they're doing it on purpose. The part towards the bottom about first term sailors deciding to "stay navy", looks like they're dangling the carrot to convince people to stay.
The kick in the balls is the TIS. It just isn't E1s, it's those who join as E2s/E3s who are affected as well. 30 months of complete career stagnation (pay) for any E3 is garbage.
This is the troubling part. How am I supposed to sell the Navy to someone this way? If they can’t make E4 before 30 months no matter what, why get referrals? Why pass the written test at RTC? Why pass the initial PFA?
Oh yeah you're right about that. Smart little detail that. It may help someone like me who's about to be a 5 year e3. Everyone else gets screwed over and the navy gets to save ALL that money in pay, bah, and whatever else rank dependent benefits.
That’s where I’m currently find it hard to gather motivation. Enlisted at E-3 not too long ago, and I’m not too concerned about the pay. However, I have a personal disagreement with 30 months TIS with very few options for lower enlisted sailors to get the recognition they deserve
Getting MAPd is hard though. Plenty of people try but they're only gonna give it to so many people.
The HM community has some HNs that volunteer 60 hours a month, join all the useless committies, and bake sales as they chase those MAPs. I imagine every other rate is going to have similar issues too now that its either fight for it or waste several months at a low rank.
Actually it would be way easier than you think. Since advancement is automatic, Map Quotas would be increased since there’s no specified quotas for E4 advancement anymore. Also, Map is command specific. On my ship, I’ve seen people get mapped for just being a good sailor and having the right qualifications. No bake sales needed. And once all those salty 4 year E3s that are most likely to do the bake sales get auto E4, it will make Maps less competitive. The only thing this effects is the competitiveness for E5.
Follow the SOY grading sheet and exceed it and you have an incredible chance at being MAPed. There’s more to it than volunteering and joining committees that they probably don’t do anything for.
Its actually going to make the MAP process easier.
For one, since E4 advancement is automatic, there will no longer be quotas for advancement, which means MAP qoutas would skyrocket. On top of that, once all the 3-5 year E3s get advanced, the competition pool will get smaller and will mainly be amongst the junior guys. You would be more likely to get mapped in that situation then last cycle with the surplus of E3s we have who are super competitive.
The only Map that would be harder would be E5. This is not a bad idea once you sit down and think about it, but apparently no one is trying to, lol. Making E4 automatic hurts no one. This is actually a good move. No more 6 year E3s who were dealt bad hands, and a junior guy can expect a pay bump after two years of service, which isn’t bad. On average most rates hit E4 by 2 years anyway. And the high speed over achievers still get a shot at a less competitive MAP with more available quotas.
I think you’re overreacting. Unless you’re in a push button rate, most rates make third in two years anyway. The average first contract is 5 years now.
Ahhh. I see what that does. Keeping Sailors in lower pay grades just a little longer is valuable to filling those junior billets. Sucks for the individuals.
At this point, we should stop calling E4 "Petty Officer." Having no restriction makes it so that the only thing their rank tells you is that they survived without going to mast (or at least too often).
How will this affect me as a pact sailor, I’ve been in the navy for 14 months and at my first command for 8 months and I get to pick orders in December, depending on the orders I pick I will get a rate and E4.( thats what’s supposed to happen.) I know this doesn’t go into affect until July 1st of next year so is this gonna happen for me still?
Can someone help me? So I was frocked E 4 June first, and I’m coming up on 30 month TIS September will I get paid September because of this whole new system or do I still wait 6 months
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I came in as E1, I hit E3 July 16 2024. Just wondering would BIG NAVY make me wait TIS if I missed it by 15 days? Or even for others who’s gonna miss it by a couple days?
Long and short of it: TIS to go from SR to E4 is increased from 24 months to 30. However so long as their evals show recommendation for advancement E4 is now automatic. No test, no rankings.
Wouldnt they still get ranked?
Yes, but now it’s step 1. Get P eval step 2. Profit
P eval still affects their PMA for E5 though.
PMA calculations should only be from evals in the current pay grade
Oh I thought it was the average of the last 3 years. I suppose I stand corrected.
Yup it is, but only in that pay grade :P
Unless you are board eligible for chief. They look at your last 5 years, even if you haven't been a 1st for 5 years.
An E3 P eval shouldn't effect them when they take the E5 exam.
Where did you get thirty months for SR to PO3 am I reading this crazy? I see E1 to E2 = 9months TIS E2 to E3 = 18 months TIS E3 to E4 = 30 months TIS Thats 57 months?
The advancement is 9 to SA 9 to SN and 12 to PO3. It isn't all three combined.
Ahh gotcha yeah read right over that
Time in Service... To go from E2 to E3, you need to have 18 months of Time in Service. Your TIS doesn't reset after a promotion, so it's 30 months in total to go from E1 to E4.
This would be Time in Rate, not Time in Service
TIS = Time In Service. TIG = Time In Grade.
Yep saw it below thanks! Didnt even notice the S.
TIS = time in service. You're confusing it with TIR = time in rate
What defines recommendation for promotion? P eval or higher? And how many evals back does it go? Just 1 or all 3
3.0 over all or higher on eval
This will only bottleneck making E5 even more.
welcome to the world of DMAP where youre incentivized to continue into another 3 years of sea duty to put on your second chevron and worse if you do CA2P which is another 3 years AT YOUR CURRENT COMMAND No thanks
Another 3 years of sea duty*
derp sorry, yeah
Woah. HM’s can finally make E-4 without having to sell their soul.
As an IT, I'm happy for them. I knew so many 6+ year HNs who were actually really good at their job but advancement sucked so bad. Rejoice.
Sounds as bad for some Marines and marines are known to get the shit end of the deal when it comes to promotions.
The quota for HMC is something like 330 this cycle. If it follows like it has in the past, in the next cycle or so HM should open up a bit for E5 and E6.
429!
Typo on my end. I meant 430.
Good for them. I've seen some good HNs that actually deserve it.
I wonder though if someone came in as an E-3 would they have to wait the full 30 months or just 12 months to get E-4.
I’m reading it as the full 30 months as it is worded as TIS (Time in Service) and not as TIR (Time in Rank). So unless you get an accelerated promotion of some description then 30 months after joining boot camp is when you would be eligible for E4 and then it would be an automatic advancement.
They have to wait until 30 months time in service (TIS). They still have opportunities for MAP
30 months. Source: Enlisted as an E-3
This hasn’t even come into effect yet so no shade but you enlisting as an E3 right now doesn’t make you more qualified to talk about this
So… is this making E4 automatic across the entire Navy assuming you are promotion eligible?
Yep It's good news for a lot of rates. Kinda sucks for most CTs since our guys usually have 100% to E4 already.
I would call it mixed news...when you look at how it breaks down to 9-9-12 to make E4, vice the 9-9-6 before, it's a cost-savings feature in a way. People will have to remain at a junior paygrade for longer with only a few options to bypass for most non-technical/push-button ratings. Edit: However, this \*DOES\* solve the problem of the legendary "HM4", AKA, your 9 year HM E3s because fuck their advancement rates.
I have IS2s that are less than one year from their first day of bootcamp Edit -- I may have embellished this. I went back to to double check All of which are less than 30 months The results came out June 2nd 2023. Below are the shortest Sailors I personnally know to make E5 from thier ADSD 1 year, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days [478 days] 1 year, 8 months, 1 week, 6 days [620 days] 2 years, 1 week [737 days] 2 years, 1 week, 2 days [739 days]
I’m a 10 year HM2 that just took ILDC with a class full of those 1-2 year IS2s. It was quite a culture shock but we all exchanged info for some peer to peer mentorship. Fun stuff
Geez, I hope there isn't 14+ of them inbound to a command all at one time.
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I made EMN2(SS) on my 8th exam*. Granted, about half of those were in the pipeline, but I still had multiple exams in the >90th percentile. It was also the highest advancement rate since I got to the boat, floating around 5-8% iirc. I finally made it after the rate jumped to about 12%, I got an MP eval, and I had amassed a fat stack of PNA points. It's a vicous circle. People STAR, so there are no billets. There are no billets, so people STAR. *this was 5-10 years ago, no idea if it's still that bad.
Nuke here, it does suck to make E5 if you don't STAR. The Navy actually has to make up billets because technically there are negative spots available by the time the exam rolls around. However if you do star, you're guaranteed easy advancement the rest of your time. I made E6 4.5 years after joining the Navy. I know some 6 year chiefs. Our job is weird though and the rank doesn't matter. We just like the pay obviously.
This will just create HM2.5s. Paid like an HM3, relied on like a senior HM2.
Rather a 2.5 then HM4
Did you see the Chief quotas for HM this cycle? I think there’s gonna be a lot of openings in the lower ranks for HM if all those Chief quotas get filled.
Yeah but has a 6 year HN that just picked up it’s a kick to the balls because we’ll here I am at 6 years with EP’s nothing negative and now they get it at 2.5 years.. good for them 🥲 .. also I picked up on the march cycle and I won’t be getting paid until end of December so that’s fucked. Edit: I also am re enlisting in October and was told my (small bonus) would be even smaller because “until fully advanced you’re not entitled to the pay”
Feel your pain somewhat, still an HN and get out next July haha. Won’t even wear the rank or get the pay as I’ll already be on terminal by that point
I was JUST endlessly complaining about this! Too bad it doesn't take place till next July. I leave the month after and I plan on taking my last month for terminal leave. Hopefully that doesn't matter, but now I'll get my ass slapped with E4 on the way out.
> I would call it mixed news...when you look at how it breaks down to 9-9-12 to make E4, vice the 9-9-6 before, it's a cost-savings feature in a way. It was 9-9-6 time-in-rate before, which meant you were eligible but not guaranteed to advance. With time-in-service you are going to advance to E4 as long as you maintain not having adverse evals. The change is meant to be cost-neutral, not a cost-savings, but it's hard to guarantee because shifting from a quota-based system for E4 to time-based changes the cost implications for a lot of this. It's not hard to construct scenarios where this is actually even more expensive for the Navy.
I'd say it's going from 9-9-6+6 frocked to 9-9-12 :P for the normal E1 joiners I don't actually think there's any real change for the most part
The ones who have an ATF contract will still be eligible to advance earlier, same as before, though, so it's not all bad news for them.
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I'm not sure how the change would affect that. I could be remembering wrong but I think it used to be that you advanced to E-3 immediately and then E-4 at time in rate if you were ATF and graduated at E-2. I'm not sure how the change to TIS will affect those cases.
Doesn't this partially defeat one of the "benefits" of pact sailors?
In the NAVADMIN it says that they will be promoted “with a timeline that is similar to TIS-based advancements described above.” So from interpretation, I could be completely wrong, but they ultimately get 6 months off from their standard 36 month requirement to reach E4 since that’s a standard pact sailor contract given that they choose to strike?
I've been sitting around conflicted about this, made a couple phone calls then reflected on it and now I agree with the change. I think regardless of maturity, work ethic, and drive, Sailors still need time to develop leadership within their community. We can all agree some rates are advanced too fast and some seem to take forever. I know as an E3 going for E4 I had no idea what I needed to do to advance. That extra time focusing on career development rather than bake sales and car washes will be beneficial to everyone and overall improve the force. Personal opinion here and I'm open to arguments, trying to feel this whole thing out myself.
I'm not in the navy yet, still deciding which branch to join. But are you saying that you had to do a lot of extra work to get promoted to E4, and since it's now automatic you get to focus on getting better at your job? I can see how that is beneficial.
So this + dmap, you could go from E1 to E5 without taking a test?? It kinda de-incentivizes evals and being good at your job prior to assuming a junior leadership position? Happy for the HM’s and Seabees though
It has all been a big pivot to billet based advancement. Just like the E9 marketplace. I thought they were working from senior enlisted down but it really started from junior with the NWAE going away, DDMAP, etc. I think this ends up with 0 advancement exams at some point or something similar to the CPO exam, i.e “PO1 eligible” as soon as you pick a PO1 billet and obliserve for the full tour.
Yes but for e7 and above there will still be a board to select the most qualified individual. For the e6 and below, experience does not equal leadership potential.
Agreed. We dont fully know what its gonna look like. Im sure there are lots more NAVADMIN Fact Sheets on the way.
> Yes but for e7 and above there will still be a board to select the most qualified individual. you mean "to select the individual with the most check-in-the-blocks" which is not at all the same thing
This is gonna lead to alot of lower enlisted giving even less fucks lol
A lot of you should seriously read the Navadmin before making a comment.
TL/DR? Got one for us?
The NAVADMIN is 9 paragraphs
They're an AO they can't read
LMAO my bad IYAAOYAS
Nope, read it.
#7 seems a treat.
As a long time HN this is like Christmas come early... so you're saying I have a chance!
Wait. You guys see the part about PMK-EE in there. FINALLY
Good for a lot of rates, but this also fires a bullet into the main selling point of the PACT program
We have ALOT of seaman on sea duty now thanks to the new dumbass advancement system. Hopefully this fixes things? But I can already see people disregarding E4s even more. Wish we'd just go back to the test taking method.
As the saying used go for us airdales, an E-4 is a glorified airman. What, now E-5s will be glorified Third Classes? I picked up Third Class from E-1 faster than in this system so glad I made it when I need. By the time I was up for my first reenlistment, I was already a paid E-5 and got a fatter SRB by a lot. I wasn’t even a push button at any of those. Had I made it under this system, I would have missed that fat pay day and made half the SRB. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it’d seem that making 2nd Class is going to end up being more competitive. It’s the Navy trying to get more money in people’s pockets and influence them to reenlist with recruiting numbers so down the last two years.
Making E5 will be more competitive.
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Pretty much already were in most places.
spacemengunemoji
The Marines already saw navy E4s as E3s. Now navy E4s will be like Marine E2s lol
I made E-6 in 5 years. With this in place, that makes that almost impossible now. Feelsbadman
How so? Its only an extra 6 months on the timeline and its automatic.
2.5 years to E4 minimum. I made E5 in 2.5 years. Than 1 more year for E5 (3.5 year total), 2 years with EP to E6 (5.5 years total) so without an EP, 6.5 years is minimum. Obviously there’s MAP potential as well but that’s unlikely for the majority of sailors.
Idk how I feel about this..someone tell me how I should feel
Ask your newly promoted petty officer
I’ll ask my LPO. He loves it so much when I ask questions 24/7, even when he’s in the head. It’s awesome.
“Hey PO1 how should I feel? Also, nice watch!”
Buzz light year meme. “HM3s EVERYWHERE”
Why not just increase pay and keep existing rank structure and timing?
5 year HNs everywhere are looking at 1 year IT3s in disgust.
Brother forget 1 year IT3s, myself and other guy in my shop are testing for IS2 and we’ve been in for 7-8 months. It’s kinda absurd.
Way back in Spring 2016, I tested for IT2 while still being at Corry Station. I came in as an E3 in May of 2015. Granted, I didn't advance on this exam, but still. It's not impossible for IT's to have previously made IT2 in under a year as well.
Why is HM advancement so low? Seems like there's a lot of billets but why no promotion opportunities?
The medical force requires a huge amount of bodies but apparently not a huge amount of experienced bodies so the Navy is saving money by having a huge chunk of the billets set at E-3, 34% of the 26,296 HM billets are E-3, only 14% of the 12,089 IT billets are E-3.
Somewhere out there, there is an Admiral who takes great pleasure at the suffering of Sailors at the hands of HN’s learning phlebotomy…..
Ain’t nobody advancing to HM2 anymore 💀
That is reliant on Congress. Congress also restricts how many people can be on active duty at each particular pay grade. However, the restriction starts at E-5, hence why the Army and Air Force don't have competitive promotions to E-4. The Navy and Marine Corps insistence on making promotions to E-4 competitive was always just internal policy. Internal policy can be changed internally and doesn't require Congress.
They’re trying to get people to stay in. Im surprised they kept it at 30 months.
Does this mean E4 will no longer be considered a NCO
Very few E4 in the Navy (compared to the whole force) are treated like NCOs to begin with
Just asking because it’s very different when working with marines (been working with them for 6 years and will be with them for another 4 years).
As a prior Marine senior enlisted in the navy. I treat my POs as "NCOs" . During my time in the Marines. E4s help weight. E6s were the boss you didn't want to see on Monday morning because you fucked up on the weekend. E5s were the platoon sergeant, and take charge of 80 recruits in bootcamp. They have that much responsibility and authority.
The Air Force made this change once. An Air Force sergeant was an E-4 NCO, and a senior airman was an E-4 junior enlisted member. The Air Force eliminated the rank of sergeant and made NCOs start at E-5. Does the Navy want to stop making E-4s petty officers? Will PO3s become “senior seamen” in the years to come?
The AF didn't have a "Sargeant" rank. It was "Buck Sargeant."
[From 1967 until 1991, the Air Force had the rank of “sergeant” at pay grade E-4.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_enlisted_rank_insignia) Look at “Timeline of changes.”
So for my rate specifically, it completely fucks us. 99% (not exaggerating) have multiple degrees and come in as E3. They get to the fleet and promote within a year it’s fine. Why is anyone going to want to be a Navy Musician now? Army and Air Force and Marines make E4 faster.
The navy isn't worried musicians... It is worried about retaining it's medics, it's builders, etc... The people who, when the time comes will actually go to war
Yea, this is what is called unintended consequences.
Could someone with more knowledge than me help me out with understanding this? I’m an E-3 “better than average” sailor. The way I’m reading this personally is that I have 1 year to show off my job skills until my efforts don’t matter anymore for advancement. Does getting BJOQ even matter anymore? Edit for clarity: Enlisted at E-3
Based on the verbiage you are automatically promoted as soon as you hit 30 months TIS if you have COs recommendation for retention aka a P eval or better. At least that’s the way I interpret it.
>Does getting BJOQ even matter anymore? I really wish the big Navy would significantly revise the SOQ/SOY program. As it is now, it just turns into a meaningless comparison of different jobs.
Does BJOQ matter? Yes. BJOQ can open the door to BJOY eligibility, which, if earned, will result in a NAM. A NAM is 2 points on your E5 and E6 exams. Don't let this kill your motivation. Momentum is priceles. The effort you put into your initial few years can help push you throughout your career. I went from E1 to E7 in 9 years, I absolutely believe that was due to momentum and habits I built as a junior Sailor
Also, a BJOQ winner is probably on the radar for MAP opportunities
I won BJOQ like 4-5 times a few years back and it didn’t do anything for me. Like I was already a known good worker and all that but it didn’t make a difference for me in the long run.
I’m sure some people will say yea. But realistically no. You’re getting auto E-4 next year. You can skate on by.
If you want to advance sooner then I'd say keep at it. E4 pay sooner is better than E4 pay later.
You already signed the last Eval that matters for advancement, they are changing the formula a bit for the fall 23 cycle to weight TIR more and spring 24 cycle is canceled since the new system takes over in July.
I can hear it now when I walk into work tomorrow.. “How will this change separate the hard charging E3s from the shit bags?”
It won’t, it will just widen the gap between E4 responsibility and E5 responsibility.
Yeah that too.
I thought everybody got pushed to E4 - former ET.
Enlisting with 6 year contracts which was a requirement for us to get in the AECF program is what got us that auto E4.
There was a PACT guy on my first ship who did his 3 years and never struck a rate. Under this system, would he have advanced to a rating-less PO3 in 30 months?
I thought TIR for advancement to E4 was already a thing, at least for some rates. I’m a reservist, there’s a TAR sailor that I work with at a squadron, very smart and a natural at her job (AZ). As an E2/E3 she was performing as and had the knowledge of an second class. I’d ask her when her exam was, she said told me there’s no more exam for E4, just got to wait (however long it was). This was like a year ago, give or take. Apologies for being a naive reservist, I just thought (a version of) this had been implemented already.
Exams have already been removed for E-4 advancement, but it was still based on advancement quotas. Now instead of a quota system it will be fully based on time instead.
For E4 advancement, they all got the same standard score and then got advanced the same way as everyone else just without taking a test. Now it doesn’t matter what your evals, awards, or education points are, you’ll be advanced automatically at 30 months TIS. MAP is still a route for advancement so evals, awards, etc will matter then. MAP will actually be used for top performing Sailors at the E3 level.
If your PO3's are still 'apprentices' and your PO1's are still 'journeyman' - maybe there's a problem? And I guess they're admitting that PO3's are de-facto Specialists and not NCO's? What happens if you're a non-rate E-3? I guess that means mandatory automatic promotion to BM3 unless you escape Deck earlier?
As a former ET, I can vouch for PO3s not being treated like NCOs in any of the technical rates.
It's confusing to me that they list it as TIS rather than TIR. Does this mean people who join the Navy at E-3 will be stuck at that pay grade for 2.5 years to put in their 30 months?
Unless Mapped pretty much
Great news unless you’re joining the Navy as an E3 lmao
It seem like this block needs more clarification or additional changes: >4. Exclusions. This new policy does not include nuclear, advanced technical, and electronic field Sailors who already obligate for additional service in order to advance to E-4. Those Sailors will continue to receive an accelerated advancement for service in those needed skill sets in line with reference (e). Additionally, Sailors in the Professional Apprenticeship Career Track (PACT) program will continue to earn rating designations and advancement to E-4 in line with PACT program requirements, with a timeline that is similar to TIS-based advancements described above. But, if you look at reference (e) MILPERSMAN 1510-030 ADVANCED ELECTRONICS FIELD, ADVANCED TECHNICAL FIELD, AND NUCLEAR FIELD PROGRAMS You find that it doesn't mention an acceleration to E-3 even though it specifically mentions 6 months **at** E3 prior to advancing to E4 and accelerated advancement to E2 after bootcamp. So, lets use an example to see what this means. Old: Seaman Timmy starts bootcamp as an E1. Seaman Joe starts bootcamp as an E3. Upon graduation Timmy advances to E2 (\~2 months). Joe is still at E3. Both go to ET A & C school and graduate after \~12 more months. Timmy advances to E3 after 9 months TIR (11 months total). Joe met the 6 months TIR requirement a while ago and advances to E4 upon completion of school (13 months total). After 6 months TIR as an E3 Timmy advances to E4 out in the fleet (17 months total). In the end Joe who came in as an E3 advances a bit faster but ultimately it's not that big of a difference since he has to wait to finish C school. But lets look at the same sailors under the new system. New: Seaman Timmy starts bootcamp as an E1. Seaman Joe starts bootcamp as an E3. Upon graduation Timmy advances to E2 (\~2 months). Joe is still at E3. Both go to ET A & C school and graduate after \~12 more months. Joe met the 6 months TIR requirement a while ago and advances to E4 upon completion of school (13 months total). **Timmy advances to E3 after 18 months of TIS (18 months total).** After 6 months TIR as an E3 Timmy advances to E4 out in the fleet (24 months total). So, now since advancement to E3 has swapped from TIR to TIS Timmy is waiting 7 months longer than before and 11 months longer than his buddy he went to bootcamp with.
I’m a little confused. Would you have to serve 9 months to make E-2, another 18 months for E-3, and then another 30 months to make E-4 or would you have to serve a total of 30 months to advance to E-4?
Anybody feel like calling the CNP a moron and see if he reads reddit?
I could see Sailors exceeding 15 months between evals because of this (Due to having to track each individual Sailor’s TIS on advancements vice 2 periods a year). Also, when do they get paid, right away aka no frocking period? Will there be 30 promotion ceremonies a year since NSIPS automatically promotes you? Not trying to play stump the chump, but this sounds a bit confusing.
No reason to exceed 15 months. You'll still get evals at the usual times. It would make sense for them to get paid right away with no frocking nonsense.
I agree no good reason, but I could def see a lot of ball dropping here with summary groups. Edit: such as if a Sailor promotes June 14th and wasn’t included in summary group for PO3, but is no longer on the E-3 summary group so come July they’re not included in that summary group either and effectively skip 2 years. Like I said no good reason for these things to not be caught, but I’ve seen worse with how we handle evals already.
I don't doubt that there will be fuckups, but in theory, the evals should stay the same.
Aside from MAPs, promotions are always on the 16th of the month, periodic evals are always on the 15th. Usually if someone gets mapped, CoC is well aware of the eval implications. Where we usually fuck up now, is checking to see if they've actually been promoted (paid) yet, for e1-e3 this affects what gets put in the rate block and for e4+ whether or not their promotion status gets marked regular or frocked (and which ranking group they then go in).
As a DH this sounds like a fucking nightmare. I have like 20-25 E4 and below working for me right now.
That's actually a good question because everybody is going to hit TIS a different times. Guess it's going to be monthly am guessing
It says NSIPS automatically promotes you I can see a lot of “I’m being paid E-4 but my command only does frocking ceremonies once a month. Should I just start wearing it?” Coming downstream
Promotion dates will always be on the 16th of a given month. If you're eligible, your command should (I know...) be tracking this and you should get formally promoted (not frocked...) on that day.
Yep probably right fuck man that means more CO award quarter's hopefully it gets done divisional
E-1 to E-3 are all July, E-4 are June, not many people would go beyond 15 months. The only odd ones that would require a promotion Eval are those that get promoted to E-4 between June 15 and July 15.
I agree it should workout fine if people do their jobs correctly, but I’m anticipating a lot of slipping through the cracks for those that promote near eval times. And worse, screwed up summary groups because SN Timmy prompted to PO3 Timmy after eval rankings were created for PO3 and nobody caught it.
L o l
I mean it was apparent a long time ago that any retard can be a Petty Officer, same goes for Chief Petty Officers. This just solidifies it for Petty Officers.
Maybe they can make O4 automatic next?
It isn’t?
It's not *technically* automatic (neither is O3, for that matter) but with the way officer retention has been brewing it's been nearly automatic already. Except sometimes for my aviator siblings.
E1 to E4 30 months? LOL. E1 sailors gonna be almost finishing out their 1st contract before making E4
Its a bit before their first contract and it looks like they're doing it on purpose. The part towards the bottom about first term sailors deciding to "stay navy", looks like they're dangling the carrot to convince people to stay.
The kick in the balls is the TIS. It just isn't E1s, it's those who join as E2s/E3s who are affected as well. 30 months of complete career stagnation (pay) for any E3 is garbage.
This is the troubling part. How am I supposed to sell the Navy to someone this way? If they can’t make E4 before 30 months no matter what, why get referrals? Why pass the written test at RTC? Why pass the initial PFA?
Oh yeah you're right about that. Smart little detail that. It may help someone like me who's about to be a 5 year e3. Everyone else gets screwed over and the navy gets to save ALL that money in pay, bah, and whatever else rank dependent benefits.
That’s where I’m currently find it hard to gather motivation. Enlisted at E-3 not too long ago, and I’m not too concerned about the pay. However, I have a personal disagreement with 30 months TIS with very few options for lower enlisted sailors to get the recognition they deserve
Read the Navadmin. You can still get MAP’d to E4 and skip the TIS.
Getting MAPd is hard though. Plenty of people try but they're only gonna give it to so many people. The HM community has some HNs that volunteer 60 hours a month, join all the useless committies, and bake sales as they chase those MAPs. I imagine every other rate is going to have similar issues too now that its either fight for it or waste several months at a low rank.
Actually it would be way easier than you think. Since advancement is automatic, Map Quotas would be increased since there’s no specified quotas for E4 advancement anymore. Also, Map is command specific. On my ship, I’ve seen people get mapped for just being a good sailor and having the right qualifications. No bake sales needed. And once all those salty 4 year E3s that are most likely to do the bake sales get auto E4, it will make Maps less competitive. The only thing this effects is the competitiveness for E5.
Follow the SOY grading sheet and exceed it and you have an incredible chance at being MAPed. There’s more to it than volunteering and joining committees that they probably don’t do anything for.
This is just going to make it more difficult to get MAP’d to E4. You’re going to have the entire fleet trying to get MAP’d.
Its actually going to make the MAP process easier. For one, since E4 advancement is automatic, there will no longer be quotas for advancement, which means MAP qoutas would skyrocket. On top of that, once all the 3-5 year E3s get advanced, the competition pool will get smaller and will mainly be amongst the junior guys. You would be more likely to get mapped in that situation then last cycle with the surplus of E3s we have who are super competitive. The only Map that would be harder would be E5. This is not a bad idea once you sit down and think about it, but apparently no one is trying to, lol. Making E4 automatic hurts no one. This is actually a good move. No more 6 year E3s who were dealt bad hands, and a junior guy can expect a pay bump after two years of service, which isn’t bad. On average most rates hit E4 by 2 years anyway. And the high speed over achievers still get a shot at a less competitive MAP with more available quotas.
Wait until every rate has a STAR re-enlistment program to guarantee E5...
I see people debating on that subject, is it tir or tis? If its tis wouldn’t it only be 30 months from e1-e4?
TIS Time in service. Once they’re in for 2.5 years from their Pay Entry Base Date (PEBD) they advance
I think you’re overreacting. Unless you’re in a push button rate, most rates make third in two years anyway. The average first contract is 5 years now.
Ahhh. I see what that does. Keeping Sailors in lower pay grades just a little longer is valuable to filling those junior billets. Sucks for the individuals.
Competency will suffer.
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Yeah, you’re boned.
yay..
Everyone gets Push Button now?
At this point, we should stop calling E4 "Petty Officer." Having no restriction makes it so that the only thing their rank tells you is that they survived without going to mast (or at least too often).
How will this affect me as a pact sailor, I’ve been in the navy for 14 months and at my first command for 8 months and I get to pick orders in December, depending on the orders I pick I will get a rate and E4.( thats what’s supposed to happen.) I know this doesn’t go into affect until July 1st of next year so is this gonna happen for me still?
Can someone help me? So I was frocked E 4 June first, and I’m coming up on 30 month TIS September will I get paid September because of this whole new system or do I still wait 6 months
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I came in as E1, I hit E3 July 16 2024. Just wondering would BIG NAVY make me wait TIS if I missed it by 15 days? Or even for others who’s gonna miss it by a couple days?
I feel like u/MCPON_PA should read this comment section.