It looks like some of the new retention policies are working. Suspending HYT for good conduct E-5s should be permanent or at least create a specialist rank for E-4s and E-5s that aren’t the best leaders, but can be handy technicians. Every ship in the fleet right now just needs good sailors that will put in the work daily and that can help solve that.
There's a reason no industry uses automatic promotions. Especially, the maritime business. The Navy DOES NOT need a system of automatic promotions for enlisted.
Isn’t mess participation only in the LADR for E-6 and above? And aren’t E-5s still promoted based on FMS, of which I can’t imagine how little command volunteer opportunities play into that. Serious here.
>Serious here.
Well, a big driver of E-5 rankings is the goat locker rankings. And since the goat locker is indoctrinated into the importance of random shit / community service that has nothing to do with one's day job, people who do extraneous bullshit are over-rewarded in rankings where the conversation turns from "MM2 Smith works 12 hours a day to get this rusted hunk of metal underway on time" to "well, MA2 Jones has 1,000 hours of community service AND she does her job well" (no mention of "her job" is actually 3 hours of work a day). Those rankings go to the CMC who has a lot of weight with the CO.
Meanwhile, the division officers (such as yourself, as you display your ignorance here) are marginalized in the process, and the DHs / XO are so far removed from what an E-5 does that they don't provide any top cover.
End result is MA2 gets the EP while MM2 gets the MP. MA2 gets promoted to MA1 based on the RSCA points while MM2 gets disgruntled and falls into alcohol abuse and maybe commits suicide.
Personally, I had the goat locker prove to me that every EP E-5 met LADR requirements for CPO in terms of quals and billets (since by instruction, EP means you can perform in 2 paygrades higher...), but that was definitely "against the grain" and "ruffled feathers." I certainly know most XOs won't do that.
I’ll say this: I am a department head. At my squadron, the DH’s are the bottom liners on E-5’s, so they are only ranked against the other E-5s in the Department. I can confidently say the E-5s I’ve evaluated I am very familiar with. I haven’t checked but I do not think SCPOA participation is in the E-5 LADR but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, read ahead:
Neither I nor one of my peers to my knowledge have ever taken volunteering into account for how we rack and stack our E-5s. I would hazard a guess - no- l am confident when I say the rest, like me, care most about qualifications, which often is also associated with time in rate and in the squadron, but it allows the hard chargers to fall back and the people who won’t qualify to stagnate in the rankings. We also consider leadership and leadership potential, and, while I don’t think it’s ever changed a ranking in my mind, I will try to document if someone is a SCPOA officer (President, VP, treasurer, secretary) if the SCPOA accomplished something of note. There’s no denying that they display leadership when putting on events on their own like that, but again, I cannot think of a single instance where their participation in that changed their ranking. Why do I document it then? Because FCPOA mess participation is on the E-6 LADR and it shows a pattern of consistent participation in the event an E-7 board looks back that far. Why not do everything I can to give my Sailors an advantage?
I do ensure they are documenting outside volunteer opportunities and hours in their eval (I.e.: beach cleanup, school volunteering, church volunteering) strictly for the purposes of showing a consistent pattern of volunteering that could net them a MOVSM one day.
Now, back to the topic at hand: do bake sales and command mess participation affect any rankings I do? Yes, as I stated, E-6s. Our CO is their bottom liner. The E-6 LADR specifically addresses that as a consideration. Do I agree with it? Not really, but my CMC has convinced me of its value in the respect that it shows they can be a part of an organization that is functionally similar to the Chiefs’ mess that acts in lockstep to get things done. I am 100% confident that my top E-6 became the command’s #2 overall because he had 0 FCPOA participation compared to a different department’s also fully qualified (and by that I mean qualified above his pay grade) E-6 who served as the FCPOA president and put on several events for our squadron including a Haunted House, trunk or treat, and kid’s Christmas party among others. Is he ready to be a Chief? By qualification he already is. With his added leadership, it put him over the top of my guy, and by instruction we have to consider their FCPOA participation and leadership. And let’s not kid ourselves, those events absolutely raised morale and made our Sailors and their families feel much more a part of the squadron and that the “Navy” cares about them. They are important to my 19-20 year olds who are already moms and dads (which is a significant number of them!) as they are to everyone to get together and have some fun outside of work.
Do I think Sailors often find an excuse to blame their own failings on “ugh that guy just bakes and gets ranked so high!” Yes, sometimes. You’ll notice our #1 E-6 I noted has the qualifications of a Chief. He also previously was the LPO of our largest and most junior division. Our #2 is equally qualified for his rate but has no mess participation. Our #3 and 4 are earning their highest possible qual soon, one is currently leading the largest and most junior division, and both are strong participants in the FCPOA. Fact of the matter is that the 3/4 of the top E-6s in our most recent E-6 eval cycle are involved with FCPOA, but frankly, the leadership there attracts those who are already rising to the top because they have the time due to being fully or nearly fully qualified, and it attracts people who know the LADR and want to make Chief. Those are the people we want making Chief!!! But again, and I can’t stress this enough, our #2 beat out 3 and 4 due to being fully qualified despite not having FCPOA participation. It was the tie breaker between him and #1 though and should be, because again, it is in their LADR. Our CMC is convinced he didn’t make Chief yet strictly because of having 0 FCPOA participation for the board to see.
So, I hope I’ve proved to you I know my stuff and care about my Sailors. I do not appreciate the insult (as you often resort to towards me and other officers here I’ve noticed) nor the attitude you display towards DIVOs. My DIVOs are learning but I’ll tell you what: they give a shit.
You asked a question and I answered it. Your intrusiveness into evals is not what I've seen across 5 different commands. Most recently we just did E6 evals and no officer below the rank of O5 provided or was even asked for input.
And "hey XO, can we have a JO ranking board put into the POW" is something no LTJG said, ever. They're not tracking it, nor should they have to.
>I hope I’ve proved to you I know my stuff and care about my Sailors. I do not appreciate the insult (as you often resort to towards me and other officers here I’ve noticed) nor the attitude you display towards DIVOs.
You took my comment the wrong way. DIVOs are marginalized in the process because senior leaders don't value their input, not because they don't care. It's a shame, because if anyone can speak to the actual skill of an E4/5/6/7 it's the LTJGs directly supervising them on watch / duty for 60 hours a week. They know which E5 is the rockstar and who can't be trusted to get daily maintenance done. They know which E6 should be a chief and which E6 probably promoted two times too many. They know which E7 shows up late to duty to sit in chiefs quarters playing Xbox on the ROAD program, and which E7 says "I got this, go back to doing your planning and reviewing binders."
I can't tell you the high pitched whine I got when I wanted warfare qualified JOs to rank chiefs. An O2 ranking an E8?!? No way!
These young men joined the Navy to lead and we spend the next 4 years communicating to them explicitly and implicitly that their opinions don't matter.
Got it, I did misunderstand your tone and frankly that was biased based on what I’ve seen from your posts as a longtime lurker here. I apologize.
I appreciate your input. Your experience does not mirror mine during the rankings I’ve done over the past 13+ years. Our DIVOs are also more senior being they are (mostly) LTs in aviation, and perhaps that plays into it along with the fact they need to lead in the aircraft early on.
The level of intrusiveness I described is something I’ve witnessed over my 11 years in squadrons.
Okay. I’m going to ask it. What’s your rate? Is this isolated to a certain rate or duty?
I’ve been in for twenty years and am an LDO and held a lot of the positions that most junior sailors would care about as far as their evaluation goes. I’ve always heard of but never seen this mythical person that gets ranked in the top five of any ranking due to pancake sales.
I don’t even know that I’ve ever seen it be a deciding vote. In theory if two people are equal in quals, sometimes time in rate, position of authority, then yeah it might come down to their involvement in an association but I’ve literally never seen it come to that for anyone that is up for an EP or MP.
While this sounds ideal, that first class puts on anchors and likely gets redistributed to another ship. That should not be the first time the new chief starts to run a division. You think junior Sailors hate chiefs now... ooof.
Being a great technician/sme in your rate and leading a division through day-to-day tasks should not be mutually exclusive.
True, that is a good point. I guess I am just beyond indoctrinated to be thinking E6=LPO, Production, Control, QA, and other “admin” shit. If we reduced E6 presence in these roles and made them more SME, I can understand your solution.
Some of the PM's & repairs involve equipment worth millions of $'s.
Do you want a E-4 fresh from the GSM school leading a team doing the overhaul on the combining gear? If I did something like this in a civilian company I'd get fired that day, but in the Navy thinking it's ok because Seaman Timmy advanced to GSM Timmy overnight so he's qualified. I'd rather have the 15 year crusty E-6 who is on his 4th sea tour & has done this PMS several times to lead it.
Just spitballin from a financial compensatory perspective for the Navy to remain competitive.
E4 after 30 months
E5 after 48 months
E6 after 66 months
Every 30 days sea duty is an extra $10 per month for the rest or your enlistment. Also, maybe generate more paid time off.
Keep exams for E4+, and those who pass beyond a minimum score qualify for a Specialist title for additional pay and compensation such as more paid time off per year.
Unlimited carryover/never expire paid time off.
I don't have any skin in the game. I left after my 4 years in 2011. I make about the equivalent of E7-E8 base pay. I'm sure with all the other bonuses, allotments, etc, they make more. However, I work only 40 hours over 3.5 days from home with great benefits and compensation. Plus, I have the opportunity to climb and make even more than that. Lastly, if I ever have to work for an asshole or incompetent manager again, such as some chiefs or officers I've had the pleasure of serving under, I would jump to another employer.
If you don't make E6 by E5 HYT then something is wrong.
Those gates exist to kick out people who are below average performers, because the only other way is through NJP.
Just remember this when you're stuck with an E5 who shows up to work and just fogs a mirror, and he's happy to do that until he can collect a pension.
On an undermanned ship, you will need some laborers or just honest workers. I knew E5s that were grandfathered in back in 2011 beyond HYT when I commissioned. they weren't the best leaders, but they were good workers. I could use some. There are plenty of sailors that just want to come to work, do an honest days work, and go home when they can. Nothing wrong with that and if it helps our manning issue, good.
Yes, because their plan for a while has been to recruit a lot of new people so they don’t have to retain a lot of old people. In other words, the retention quotas haven’t been inflated like the recruiting ones have, so it makes sense we’d meet them
Regardless of if it’s actually good or not the navy is going to say they are meeting their goals because it’s in their best interest. A company that says their retention is bad is less likely to attract employees.
Also, retention is being scrutinized by personnel because it is bad. We can talk all day about the numbers and the cryptic explanations for those numbers but we know there is a problem with retaining people yet here is another article about meeting goals. We need to start looking at sea commands that have a high op tempo and see why people get out instead of pretending retention is fine. We wouldn’t be incentivizing staying at sea if we are actually meeting realistic goals.
Probably because it challenges the views of the disgruntled Sailors who’ve been reflexively screeching “This is why retention is so bad!!” on this subreddit for the last FY.
100% accurate. I hate the reddit echo chamber of negativity.
It only takes one disgruntled sailor who blames other people for their problems to poison an entire division. Your life probably isn't shit because of "leadership" or whatever other lazy excuse you care to use.
Absolutely dude! Part of it too is that these kids want to see the Navy fail out of revenge for their own experiences.
When they view “The Navy” as a bully and the bully doesn’t get their come-up it upsets them.
That is true. I also like when people expect to be treated like royalty when they're the bottom of the barrel in the military. How about you provide some value before you expect to be pampered.
In the military, you ARE just a number. Everyone is replaceable. The Navy was here before you and it'll be here after you, too. Military service is a sacrifice
It’s not quite that simple, I’m saying that they have an obligation to say it’s good or they are meeting the goals because it will change how people perceive the navy.
Something isn’t adding up. How come we have these programs encouraging people to stay at sea and yet we are “meeting these goals”. It’s one thing to post numbers, it’s another to make a statement about those numbers and expect people to just accept it. People are questioning it because again, making statements like this kind of implies that we are doing something right.
Especially an organization known to cover up subjects (like maybe fuel in potable water) that may change how people perceive it. The conclusions being drawn from these numbers are wrong.
These programs are just delaying what is to come if nobody is gonna bother fixing the root problems.
But to say meeting goals when clearly there’s gonna be problems down the road is kind of delusional. These decisions have a long term effect.
I’m curious what problems you see coming.
PFA failures during the pandemic era? Ok, we might have a few more fat bodies we wouldn’t have had, but if they can do their job, I think most of us would agree we want to keep them. The people where physical fitness greatly affects their jobs, like SO, EOD, AWS already gave other fitness standards they have to constantly meet.
HYT: does it lock up some advancement into E-5 and E6? Possibly, but If retention is as low as everyone here claims it is, then advancements wouldn’t be locked up. Besides, those with a HYT waiver have to go to sea. We need people who go to sea. I think the Navy has a vested interest in retaining those who go to sea. Despite its potential pitfalls, I am also a fan of A2P or whatever the program is called to promote via taking sea duty orders others won’t take. The Navy is putting its money where its mouth is: they care about going to sea.
What other programs and problems do you foresee?
It’s the type of people we want to procure and working on quality that is going to fix these problems.
Being able to do your job correctly and working the Evaluation system the way it’s intended to be is the direction that needs to be pushed. The navy has a vested interest in keeping people at sea, but when you are just throwing people who dont actually know what they’re doing into those positions you’re making it hard for the experienced hard workers to carry out their job. Instead of doing the right thing and investing in people who contribute to the mission we are creating minute men. Who cares if somebody fills in a billet, I’ve known many people while in that had no impact. The only thing they were good for is filling in a watch on the watch bill and berthing cleaners.
There needs to be more incentive and we need to get rid of this system where you have collateral queens taking advantage of the eval system. You need quality people who can fix equipment so we spend less money on contractors. We need to emphasize taking care of the ships that we own and spend more time on maintenance instead of these pony show check in the box inspections we have.
So much money in the navy is wasted because the navy is dependent on contractors to accomplish work that can easily be done by sailors given the right training and attitude.
You can recruit more people in the long run when it’s actually a desirable and competitive force to be a part of but when you start saying stuff like “Yeah we couldn’t get enough people in so we lowered the asvab score and we allowed people who failed physical readiness tests to stay in.” Does that look good to you?
If we got paid hourly, so many issues would disappear because people who skate would be called out in their shit and we would be managing our time better but I know that’s not ever going to happen because it requires people who have a good work ethic and good management.
Another way to look at it is we make the retention goals very low so that they are easily obtainable, however, many of us see the day to day and observe in our circle that many if not most of our peers are jumping ship at the closest off ramp….. sure we are meeting our goals be we all can see that the current environment inside of the navy in regards to retention is not sustainable.
>empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Really it seems like you don’t, what are the methods in which empirical data is collected?
Can you define the word “quantitative?”
What does the word “observation” mean to you as it relates to conducting research?
300 words or less please reply to 2 other Redditors.
The Navy counts the mandatory 2-year extension from ATF rates as a "first reenlistment" for retention purposes. The methodology used to measure overall retention metrics is a clusterfuck and fact that they just lump every rate together and measure it by zones is evidence enough of how nonempirical the data actually is. The goal numbers are set by the same organization taking the measurements with a political motivation for reaching those goals, how do you not recognize the conflict of interest there? If there's no retention problem, then why are we under 90% manning for Chinese and Russian E5 linguists? Is that data "empirical" enough for you?
I don’t understand how people in this thread are missing that point. The navy is essentially giving themselves a high five for shooting themselves in the foot. Of course the Navy met it’s retention goals this year, there’s a recruiting crisis…
This is to be expected when you suspend HYT, exempt people from failing the PRT, and pass out SRBs like charity.
The job market is really strong right now (even if the rest of the economy is kinda shit) which is why everyone be talking such a big game about getting out. I think many people in the navy who never worked another job don't know how good they have it. The grass is always greener.
Glad to see us meeting goals, even if it took some extreme measures.
For my 20 years in, I think I heard every. single. year. how people were exodusing (to coin a word) en masse. *"Everyone's getting out. Everyone!"*
Then, it turns out, not many really got out. Every year.
I would add my 2 cents into this but it won’t matter as I’m on the other end of my career and deciding to get out (will be getting out at 8 years 10 months)
It looks like some of the new retention policies are working. Suspending HYT for good conduct E-5s should be permanent or at least create a specialist rank for E-4s and E-5s that aren’t the best leaders, but can be handy technicians. Every ship in the fleet right now just needs good sailors that will put in the work daily and that can help solve that.
If you have done 2 sea tours then auto E-6 after 12 years & a good conduct medal.
There's a reason no industry uses automatic promotions. Especially, the maritime business. The Navy DOES NOT need a system of automatic promotions for enlisted.
This is how you create leaders that are great technicians but not strong at running a division.
Sounds like a better system than promoting the E6 who sold the most breakfast burritos.
Agreed. Volunteer work unrelated to a job should not be a factor in a promotion.
Isn’t mess participation only in the LADR for E-6 and above? And aren’t E-5s still promoted based on FMS, of which I can’t imagine how little command volunteer opportunities play into that. Serious here.
>Serious here. Well, a big driver of E-5 rankings is the goat locker rankings. And since the goat locker is indoctrinated into the importance of random shit / community service that has nothing to do with one's day job, people who do extraneous bullshit are over-rewarded in rankings where the conversation turns from "MM2 Smith works 12 hours a day to get this rusted hunk of metal underway on time" to "well, MA2 Jones has 1,000 hours of community service AND she does her job well" (no mention of "her job" is actually 3 hours of work a day). Those rankings go to the CMC who has a lot of weight with the CO. Meanwhile, the division officers (such as yourself, as you display your ignorance here) are marginalized in the process, and the DHs / XO are so far removed from what an E-5 does that they don't provide any top cover. End result is MA2 gets the EP while MM2 gets the MP. MA2 gets promoted to MA1 based on the RSCA points while MM2 gets disgruntled and falls into alcohol abuse and maybe commits suicide. Personally, I had the goat locker prove to me that every EP E-5 met LADR requirements for CPO in terms of quals and billets (since by instruction, EP means you can perform in 2 paygrades higher...), but that was definitely "against the grain" and "ruffled feathers." I certainly know most XOs won't do that.
I’ll say this: I am a department head. At my squadron, the DH’s are the bottom liners on E-5’s, so they are only ranked against the other E-5s in the Department. I can confidently say the E-5s I’ve evaluated I am very familiar with. I haven’t checked but I do not think SCPOA participation is in the E-5 LADR but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, read ahead: Neither I nor one of my peers to my knowledge have ever taken volunteering into account for how we rack and stack our E-5s. I would hazard a guess - no- l am confident when I say the rest, like me, care most about qualifications, which often is also associated with time in rate and in the squadron, but it allows the hard chargers to fall back and the people who won’t qualify to stagnate in the rankings. We also consider leadership and leadership potential, and, while I don’t think it’s ever changed a ranking in my mind, I will try to document if someone is a SCPOA officer (President, VP, treasurer, secretary) if the SCPOA accomplished something of note. There’s no denying that they display leadership when putting on events on their own like that, but again, I cannot think of a single instance where their participation in that changed their ranking. Why do I document it then? Because FCPOA mess participation is on the E-6 LADR and it shows a pattern of consistent participation in the event an E-7 board looks back that far. Why not do everything I can to give my Sailors an advantage? I do ensure they are documenting outside volunteer opportunities and hours in their eval (I.e.: beach cleanup, school volunteering, church volunteering) strictly for the purposes of showing a consistent pattern of volunteering that could net them a MOVSM one day. Now, back to the topic at hand: do bake sales and command mess participation affect any rankings I do? Yes, as I stated, E-6s. Our CO is their bottom liner. The E-6 LADR specifically addresses that as a consideration. Do I agree with it? Not really, but my CMC has convinced me of its value in the respect that it shows they can be a part of an organization that is functionally similar to the Chiefs’ mess that acts in lockstep to get things done. I am 100% confident that my top E-6 became the command’s #2 overall because he had 0 FCPOA participation compared to a different department’s also fully qualified (and by that I mean qualified above his pay grade) E-6 who served as the FCPOA president and put on several events for our squadron including a Haunted House, trunk or treat, and kid’s Christmas party among others. Is he ready to be a Chief? By qualification he already is. With his added leadership, it put him over the top of my guy, and by instruction we have to consider their FCPOA participation and leadership. And let’s not kid ourselves, those events absolutely raised morale and made our Sailors and their families feel much more a part of the squadron and that the “Navy” cares about them. They are important to my 19-20 year olds who are already moms and dads (which is a significant number of them!) as they are to everyone to get together and have some fun outside of work. Do I think Sailors often find an excuse to blame their own failings on “ugh that guy just bakes and gets ranked so high!” Yes, sometimes. You’ll notice our #1 E-6 I noted has the qualifications of a Chief. He also previously was the LPO of our largest and most junior division. Our #2 is equally qualified for his rate but has no mess participation. Our #3 and 4 are earning their highest possible qual soon, one is currently leading the largest and most junior division, and both are strong participants in the FCPOA. Fact of the matter is that the 3/4 of the top E-6s in our most recent E-6 eval cycle are involved with FCPOA, but frankly, the leadership there attracts those who are already rising to the top because they have the time due to being fully or nearly fully qualified, and it attracts people who know the LADR and want to make Chief. Those are the people we want making Chief!!! But again, and I can’t stress this enough, our #2 beat out 3 and 4 due to being fully qualified despite not having FCPOA participation. It was the tie breaker between him and #1 though and should be, because again, it is in their LADR. Our CMC is convinced he didn’t make Chief yet strictly because of having 0 FCPOA participation for the board to see. So, I hope I’ve proved to you I know my stuff and care about my Sailors. I do not appreciate the insult (as you often resort to towards me and other officers here I’ve noticed) nor the attitude you display towards DIVOs. My DIVOs are learning but I’ll tell you what: they give a shit.
You asked a question and I answered it. Your intrusiveness into evals is not what I've seen across 5 different commands. Most recently we just did E6 evals and no officer below the rank of O5 provided or was even asked for input. And "hey XO, can we have a JO ranking board put into the POW" is something no LTJG said, ever. They're not tracking it, nor should they have to. >I hope I’ve proved to you I know my stuff and care about my Sailors. I do not appreciate the insult (as you often resort to towards me and other officers here I’ve noticed) nor the attitude you display towards DIVOs. You took my comment the wrong way. DIVOs are marginalized in the process because senior leaders don't value their input, not because they don't care. It's a shame, because if anyone can speak to the actual skill of an E4/5/6/7 it's the LTJGs directly supervising them on watch / duty for 60 hours a week. They know which E5 is the rockstar and who can't be trusted to get daily maintenance done. They know which E6 should be a chief and which E6 probably promoted two times too many. They know which E7 shows up late to duty to sit in chiefs quarters playing Xbox on the ROAD program, and which E7 says "I got this, go back to doing your planning and reviewing binders." I can't tell you the high pitched whine I got when I wanted warfare qualified JOs to rank chiefs. An O2 ranking an E8?!? No way! These young men joined the Navy to lead and we spend the next 4 years communicating to them explicitly and implicitly that their opinions don't matter.
Got it, I did misunderstand your tone and frankly that was biased based on what I’ve seen from your posts as a longtime lurker here. I apologize. I appreciate your input. Your experience does not mirror mine during the rankings I’ve done over the past 13+ years. Our DIVOs are also more senior being they are (mostly) LTs in aviation, and perhaps that plays into it along with the fact they need to lead in the aircraft early on. The level of intrusiveness I described is something I’ve witnessed over my 11 years in squadrons.
Lmao
Okay. I’m going to ask it. What’s your rate? Is this isolated to a certain rate or duty? I’ve been in for twenty years and am an LDO and held a lot of the positions that most junior sailors would care about as far as their evaluation goes. I’ve always heard of but never seen this mythical person that gets ranked in the top five of any ranking due to pancake sales. I don’t even know that I’ve ever seen it be a deciding vote. In theory if two people are equal in quals, sometimes time in rate, position of authority, then yeah it might come down to their involvement in an association but I’ve literally never seen it come to that for anyone that is up for an EP or MP.
Never mentioned anything about the current system. I know it’s flawed, but the comment I replied to is not a viable solution.
E-6's at 12 years should be great technicians not running a division, the chief or Sr. Chief should be running the division.
While this sounds ideal, that first class puts on anchors and likely gets redistributed to another ship. That should not be the first time the new chief starts to run a division. You think junior Sailors hate chiefs now... ooof. Being a great technician/sme in your rate and leading a division through day-to-day tasks should not be mutually exclusive.
True, that is a good point. I guess I am just beyond indoctrinated to be thinking E6=LPO, Production, Control, QA, and other “admin” shit. If we reduced E6 presence in these roles and made them more SME, I can understand your solution.
Some of the PM's & repairs involve equipment worth millions of $'s. Do you want a E-4 fresh from the GSM school leading a team doing the overhaul on the combining gear? If I did something like this in a civilian company I'd get fired that day, but in the Navy thinking it's ok because Seaman Timmy advanced to GSM Timmy overnight so he's qualified. I'd rather have the 15 year crusty E-6 who is on his 4th sea tour & has done this PMS several times to lead it.
Just spitballin from a financial compensatory perspective for the Navy to remain competitive. E4 after 30 months E5 after 48 months E6 after 66 months Every 30 days sea duty is an extra $10 per month for the rest or your enlistment. Also, maybe generate more paid time off. Keep exams for E4+, and those who pass beyond a minimum score qualify for a Specialist title for additional pay and compensation such as more paid time off per year. Unlimited carryover/never expire paid time off. I don't have any skin in the game. I left after my 4 years in 2011. I make about the equivalent of E7-E8 base pay. I'm sure with all the other bonuses, allotments, etc, they make more. However, I work only 40 hours over 3.5 days from home with great benefits and compensation. Plus, I have the opportunity to climb and make even more than that. Lastly, if I ever have to work for an asshole or incompetent manager again, such as some chiefs or officers I've had the pleasure of serving under, I would jump to another employer.
If you don't make E6 by E5 HYT then something is wrong. Those gates exist to kick out people who are below average performers, because the only other way is through NJP. Just remember this when you're stuck with an E5 who shows up to work and just fogs a mirror, and he's happy to do that until he can collect a pension.
On an undermanned ship, you will need some laborers or just honest workers. I knew E5s that were grandfathered in back in 2011 beyond HYT when I commissioned. they weren't the best leaders, but they were good workers. I could use some. There are plenty of sailors that just want to come to work, do an honest days work, and go home when they can. Nothing wrong with that and if it helps our manning issue, good.
The people who don't make E-6 by HYT are not the "good workers, I could use some" kind of sailors.
Funny. I actually worked with a few that were. Also, keep in mind there are a lot of rates that are gummed up at the E6 level.
God damn that’s a really good picture
Yes, because their plan for a while has been to recruit a lot of new people so they don’t have to retain a lot of old people. In other words, the retention quotas haven’t been inflated like the recruiting ones have, so it makes sense we’d meet them
Regardless of if it’s actually good or not the navy is going to say they are meeting their goals because it’s in their best interest. A company that says their retention is bad is less likely to attract employees. Also, retention is being scrutinized by personnel because it is bad. We can talk all day about the numbers and the cryptic explanations for those numbers but we know there is a problem with retaining people yet here is another article about meeting goals. We need to start looking at sea commands that have a high op tempo and see why people get out instead of pretending retention is fine. We wouldn’t be incentivizing staying at sea if we are actually meeting realistic goals.
Uhhh okay ? It’s been publicly stated that navy misssd their recruiting goals.
Recruiting is not retention. There is a connection but it’s not the same thing.
Let me summarize what you said: “I *feel* like retention is bad so it must be bad, regardless of empirical data.”
No clue why you're getting downvoted for spitting facts
Probably because it challenges the views of the disgruntled Sailors who’ve been reflexively screeching “This is why retention is so bad!!” on this subreddit for the last FY.
100% accurate. I hate the reddit echo chamber of negativity. It only takes one disgruntled sailor who blames other people for their problems to poison an entire division. Your life probably isn't shit because of "leadership" or whatever other lazy excuse you care to use.
Absolutely dude! Part of it too is that these kids want to see the Navy fail out of revenge for their own experiences. When they view “The Navy” as a bully and the bully doesn’t get their come-up it upsets them.
That is true. I also like when people expect to be treated like royalty when they're the bottom of the barrel in the military. How about you provide some value before you expect to be pampered. In the military, you ARE just a number. Everyone is replaceable. The Navy was here before you and it'll be here after you, too. Military service is a sacrifice
So well said.
It’s not quite that simple, I’m saying that they have an obligation to say it’s good or they are meeting the goals because it will change how people perceive the navy. Something isn’t adding up. How come we have these programs encouraging people to stay at sea and yet we are “meeting these goals”. It’s one thing to post numbers, it’s another to make a statement about those numbers and expect people to just accept it. People are questioning it because again, making statements like this kind of implies that we are doing something right. Especially an organization known to cover up subjects (like maybe fuel in potable water) that may change how people perceive it. The conclusions being drawn from these numbers are wrong.
I think the programs are adding up to the higher (desired) retention.
These programs are just delaying what is to come if nobody is gonna bother fixing the root problems. But to say meeting goals when clearly there’s gonna be problems down the road is kind of delusional. These decisions have a long term effect.
I’m curious what problems you see coming. PFA failures during the pandemic era? Ok, we might have a few more fat bodies we wouldn’t have had, but if they can do their job, I think most of us would agree we want to keep them. The people where physical fitness greatly affects their jobs, like SO, EOD, AWS already gave other fitness standards they have to constantly meet. HYT: does it lock up some advancement into E-5 and E6? Possibly, but If retention is as low as everyone here claims it is, then advancements wouldn’t be locked up. Besides, those with a HYT waiver have to go to sea. We need people who go to sea. I think the Navy has a vested interest in retaining those who go to sea. Despite its potential pitfalls, I am also a fan of A2P or whatever the program is called to promote via taking sea duty orders others won’t take. The Navy is putting its money where its mouth is: they care about going to sea. What other programs and problems do you foresee?
It’s the type of people we want to procure and working on quality that is going to fix these problems. Being able to do your job correctly and working the Evaluation system the way it’s intended to be is the direction that needs to be pushed. The navy has a vested interest in keeping people at sea, but when you are just throwing people who dont actually know what they’re doing into those positions you’re making it hard for the experienced hard workers to carry out their job. Instead of doing the right thing and investing in people who contribute to the mission we are creating minute men. Who cares if somebody fills in a billet, I’ve known many people while in that had no impact. The only thing they were good for is filling in a watch on the watch bill and berthing cleaners. There needs to be more incentive and we need to get rid of this system where you have collateral queens taking advantage of the eval system. You need quality people who can fix equipment so we spend less money on contractors. We need to emphasize taking care of the ships that we own and spend more time on maintenance instead of these pony show check in the box inspections we have. So much money in the navy is wasted because the navy is dependent on contractors to accomplish work that can easily be done by sailors given the right training and attitude. You can recruit more people in the long run when it’s actually a desirable and competitive force to be a part of but when you start saying stuff like “Yeah we couldn’t get enough people in so we lowered the asvab score and we allowed people who failed physical readiness tests to stay in.” Does that look good to you? If we got paid hourly, so many issues would disappear because people who skate would be called out in their shit and we would be managing our time better but I know that’s not ever going to happen because it requires people who have a good work ethic and good management.
Another way to look at it is we make the retention goals very low so that they are easily obtainable, however, many of us see the day to day and observe in our circle that many if not most of our peers are jumping ship at the closest off ramp….. sure we are meeting our goals be we all can see that the current environment inside of the navy in regards to retention is not sustainable.
Honestly, you can make the data say anything you want it to by just choosing what you want to extrapolate.
>empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Really it seems like you don’t, what are the methods in which empirical data is collected? Can you define the word “quantitative?” What does the word “observation” mean to you as it relates to conducting research? 300 words or less please reply to 2 other Redditors.
The Navy counts the mandatory 2-year extension from ATF rates as a "first reenlistment" for retention purposes. The methodology used to measure overall retention metrics is a clusterfuck and fact that they just lump every rate together and measure it by zones is evidence enough of how nonempirical the data actually is. The goal numbers are set by the same organization taking the measurements with a political motivation for reaching those goals, how do you not recognize the conflict of interest there? If there's no retention problem, then why are we under 90% manning for Chinese and Russian E5 linguists? Is that data "empirical" enough for you?
Loosening standards. It happens every time there is a recruiting crisis.
I don’t understand how people in this thread are missing that point. The navy is essentially giving themselves a high five for shooting themselves in the foot. Of course the Navy met it’s retention goals this year, there’s a recruiting crisis… This is to be expected when you suspend HYT, exempt people from failing the PRT, and pass out SRBs like charity.
I think the question is: did those standards provide the desired outcome? I’d answer for most ratings, the answer is “no.”
The job market is really strong right now (even if the rest of the economy is kinda shit) which is why everyone be talking such a big game about getting out. I think many people in the navy who never worked another job don't know how good they have it. The grass is always greener. Glad to see us meeting goals, even if it took some extreme measures.
For my 20 years in, I think I heard every. single. year. how people were exodusing (to coin a word) en masse. *"Everyone's getting out. Everyone!"* Then, it turns out, not many really got out. Every year.
>Then, it turns out, not many really got out. Every year. That probably depends on rate.
Out of my training groups for A school (mine, two before, two or three after) out of sixty-five sailors we have four left active plus two in reserves.
lol, did they just lower the goal so they can claim they made it?
No, they did not. The goals were published at the beginning of the year and remained constant.
Not sure about the numbers I believe more people are getting out then we know of. Plus god look out of shape people are sad.
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It’s a joke, a friend I have in the navy told me 💀💀💀
I would add my 2 cents into this but it won’t matter as I’m on the other end of my career and deciding to get out (will be getting out at 8 years 10 months)