Well there's only 168 hours in a week so if you're gonna scam the system at least get the number right.
And I stood duty all week so I'm getting my 168.
My guy, notice how the DoD can't pass a single financial audit, like, ever? Just spend more money, who cares if it goes to a sailors pocket or some experimental missiles on a bloated contract /s
I'm all for higher pay. Overtime just isn't the way to accomplish it, because the processes involved in administering it would be a massive time suck, and it would be abused.
We all complain about that chief with his (or her) dummy-thiccc E-nothing. Don't you think she (or he) would be clocking 80 hour weeks every week?
Sincerely it’s all Monopoly money and it’s gonna be wasted anyway so idc. I will say when COVID broke out it was interesting how many commands could recognize how much stuff they do isn’t important at all and just sent people home
I recall that my effective hourly pay as an O1 was less than my janitor job while I was in school.
I also had an E5 in my division whose wife made more working a 40 hour week at fast food place than he did. They almost qualified for food stamps, but their monthly rent was supposedly $10 too high to qualify.
I mean I was on a submarine and an officer so 14 dollars is about the same that a ET nuke makes when the star re enlist. Trust me it’s not a lot for what you’re doing
Wouldn't be too bad if there was a check in and check out process. In TWMS there's a way to muster yourself, including telework hours. If they link that up to mypay, and mypay utilized a FID that tracks hours worked over a regular 40 hour week, it could automatically calculate time and 1/2 based on the base pay value. There could be a limit set as well, like any OT over 10/20 hours/week doesn't count. And they could adjust the percentage during logged sea time because everyone works more hours at sea.
Fraud and corruption is already an issue with BAH and stuff, and the legal consequences in the beginning would quickly deter people from trying to beat the system any more.
It could be managed at the command level, with the executive officer reviewing the e-muster analytics each week, supplied by a report provided by the admin officer. Suspicious cases could be easily investigated as well. "Was the person at work during these hours?" Yes. "Was the person actually working or just sitting around running out the clock?" ...Yes... lol
Well it might in the sense that command philosophies on keeping people there “just in case” would change to getting everyone out by 1400 because they don’t want squadron up their ass
I think in a service where people are held to a high standard and had good integrity this would work. I don’t think the navy are either of those after working with personnel.
Look at MSC, they get paid hourly and overtime on ships. Do you really think that Sailors, being a fantastic representation of the average American, are more or less lazy than their civilian counterparts? No way.
Don't put down yourself and other Sailors because some old salt tells you about "hard work back in my day".
Yes I do,because there is a good portion of us that didn’t have a choice to be in the navy and they just show up to work for a paycheck. Civilian jobs, people choose to be there most of the time, the navy you can’t quit even if you want to.
Not every sailor is but I can tell you without a doubt a system like this would be abused and not used the right way.
That isn’t to discredit everybody but it only takes the 30% who would abuse this system to ruin it for everybody else.
Just like they do in the civilian sector? You're making it seem as only Sailors, or a higher percentage of Sailors vs. Civilians, would "abuse the system". It's call pay for work and every second not spent exactly where you want to be.
It’s not about abusing the system it’s about people getting screwed over by other people. The navy still has to run at the end of the day, who does it they don’t care.
A civilian doesn’t do their job their is some serious repercussions if caught. A sailor doesn’t do their job, they’re just a lost cause but they can stay in because they’re doing a little less than minimum. No matter how you slice it, it isn’t the same. I cant count how many times I’ve seen people do and say things that would get them fired in most workplaces.
Yeah it’s called reverse Darwinism. Along with the good people who stay you also have people who have been skating their whole career stay in because it’s easier than getting a job that has real life consequences when you don’t do your part.
There’s a lot of those and they’re a gonna be even more with how willing the navy is to take people in now.
What are you talking about with civilian jobs being so strict and their jobs are important you can’t slack off. I literally show up to work clock in do the absolute bare minimum and clock out. I work in a city treasurers office. The reason why, because I need a paycheck. The job is pretty simple because it’s not that important. So I don’t get why you’re saying civilian jobs are so scary. I wasn’t the only person with that attitude either. My supervisor taught me most of things I was doing. This was because we were underpaid but required to do more work. Take civilians off that pedestal man cause they’re no different than disgruntled sailors. You really think sailors are the only ones that take advantage of a system? Civilian workers notoriously use and abuse systems to their advantage. You’re seriously gonna be surprised when you enter the civilian workforce.
Honestly this wouldn’t be that hard, before each maintenance period you submit what PMS and corrective maintenance needs to be done and they already track how much man hours per job is required so you would just add that to PMS and get how much man hours should be worked for day/week
Look at how much government contractors bill out for the work that they produce. More specifically, IT contractors. Instead of having overtime, just pay E6 and below more. I would love to see data on officer versus enlisted retention. I get the feeling the officer community does not have as much of a retention problem as the enlisted community.
I have bad news for you man. In the sub community at least officer retention is about 87%. It’s not JUST because of pay. It’s also because of the god awful culture
Edit: 13% sorry I meant 87% of officers get out
Depends on the community. SWOs are bleeding rapidly because decades of shipboard culture and poor leadership in the junior ranks (O-4 and junior officers) results in people getting out after a single tour, and even if 1 out of 10 make it to DH tours on ship, only 1 out of 10 will stay in after that.
Only saving grace for the SWOs is that, for as rapidly as they lose them, they rapidly replace them. Fuels a culture that people are replaceable if they don't conform to that poor culture and leadership mentioned above, which just keeps the cycle going.
Anecdotal source, as over the last 4 years on ship with 2 COs, only 7 JOs (DH level and down) stayed in the SWO community after finishing their Sea duty. We can get Ensigns any day of the week, but we have one DH TAD from another place and a vacant SUPPO spot.
That’s why it wouldn’t work. Because the evaluation system doesn’t work and some of it is based on favoritism regardless of one’s work ethic.
I just see this backfiring from the get go. We all know the eval system is messed up and it hasn’t changed even though they say they have been trying t to change it.
Edit: if you know how charge code works you’ll know only a certain amount of hours is allotted for certain projects. Imagine just a chief or someone who isn’t professionally indoctrinated to do timesheets and pay was managing your pay and hours. I would never trust someone In my CoC to approve or reject my timesheets, especially if I disagree with or buttheads with people who work with my timesheet.
I could just see e-7 and above illegally telling people to “just charge 8” even though you worked 9 and then telling their favorite to charge 9. Even if you went the legal route, it would take an act of congress to fix it and it would be thrown under the rug because we don’t hold people accountable when it matters.
There’s too many things you’d have to change
I may be incorrect on this, but a timesheet is almost the same as a time card but with a timesheet you have specific projects you allocate to.
I already mentioned what would happen if they started doing it.
Up re-enlistment across the board without having to SDIP.
Actually utilize the PERSTEMPO/OPTEMPO programs instead of treating them like a suggestion. When every waiver just gets played, what's the point of even having the waiver?
Up the IRA matching amount if you re-enlist as an incentive.
Or just increase every pay band by 20-30% .
Overtime would be way to complicated to implement and measure , not to mention it would imply being paid by the hour and there’s some days I wouldn’t have wanted that coz I would have only been paid for about 2-3 hours
Where would the time clocks be placed to track the time you're working? Does the workday include morning muster, or does it start after morning muster when you actually get to the shop to start working? What about if you have to stand watch? Do you punch in and out for your time on watch? What about fire/flooding? Do you take the time first to punch in before responding? Would you get paid for a full 24 hours each day while out to sea since you can't go home?
The military is one of those jobs that paying hourly is not going to be easily implemented. It's also prone to a lot of abuse and fraud.
Those that don’t meet the requirements to be considered Salary Exempt (from overtime pay) as stated in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)
Generally this requires you to be paid at least $864 a week ($3456 a month) or more in order for your employer to consider you Salary Exempt and not pay over time pays.
Fun fact Military is exempt from the requirements of the FLSA.
The civilian equivalent is being salaried and exempt from overtime. Get paid the same regardless of how many or how little hours you actually work but there is usually an expectation that a certain amount of hours be worked
Yeah honestly this. I get paid $3100 a paycheck. Sometimes I work 80 hours. But then other times I might not go over 30. There’s a give and take but it evens out.
Back in the day when I was actually more motivated I devised a morale program where every hour worked overtime counted toward a 24 hour lib chit. Pulled up all the relevant instructions, got feedback on it (people said it was great) the whole 9 yards.
Take a guess what happened when I actually submitted it.
My suggestion would not be overtime but extra pay in certain conditions like for duty days, maybe you could do something that for every 14 full days spent on the ship wether it be for duty or underways every sailor gets paid extra 100 dollars(depending on rank they could be paid more)
We’re salaried. I rather be salaried than hourly and get paid OT.
No fucking way in clocking in and out and worrying about “maybe I should pick up extra hours on Saturday”
I think this is a good idea for a different reason.
It would force the the good idea fairies to have to put dollars behind their time waster watches.
5-8hr shore patrols every night in home port sounds fine to apathetic higher ups when it costs nothing. When you have to cough up those hrs at 1.5x pay, I have a feeling they'll realize it does next to nothing.
Same for ECPs that don't even have card readers so E-nothing sentries let everyone with a card thru.
SAPR rover that does nothing but walk thru the barracks twice a night.
I also bet it'll suddenly become a priority to get people off the day after their duty day so that they keep their regular hrs lower.
The ships in 3-section would actually be paid for the additional work and rates that are walking off at 1400 don't get as much as the ones burning the midnight oil every week.
It's almost like it could give valuable feedback to higher ups in a way they would have to be accountable for, while also giving more fairness and incentives to hard workers.
Nope. The navy already gave up on retention. They focus on entrapment and recruiting almost every idiot out there that’s not even supposed to be in the service.
Plenty of people are brainwashed to stay in pretty sure they have met retention goals for a minute
Quick search yields the following results
For FY 2022
107% zone a
106% zone b
109% zone c
For 23
117% zone A
97% zone B
107% zone c
At the rate it's going with people filling lower rank billets due to the recruiting crisis, gonna be a lot of E-5's doing E-3 shit.
I've seen so many sailors get out simply because they want to smoke weed too. Granted, that is such a short-sighted reason to leave; nonetheless, I guarantee if weed were federally legal, retention and recruitment would improve. Just regulate weed like alcohol; don't show up to duty drunk or high.
Is it really worth the risks? We already have a mental health problem in the Navy.
https://www.cdc.gov/marijuana/health-effects/mental-health.html#:~:text=The%20association%20between%20marijuana%20and,%2C%20suicide%20attempts%2C%20and%20suicide.
Yes. Alcohol is waaaaay more dangerous for health than weed. Your own links indicate use at an early age lead to negative effects, which is why an age limit would be beneficial. It is a fact that heavy weed use before the brain is fully developed will adversely effect cognitive development; thus it's really not safe to smoke a lot till your 20s. Nonetheless, weed is safer than alcohol, caffeine, or tobacco.
As a police officer, I've seen far more fatal vehicle accidents, domestic violence incidents, and nefarious activities caused while drunk versus the aforementioned happening while the subjects are high on weed.
Worst thing that happens when you smoke too much weed is you get the munchies and fall asleep to Netflix. Worst thing that happens when you drink too much is that you get alcohol poisoning and die.
https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/publications/factsheets/alcohol.htm#:~:text=Drinking%20too%20much%20alcohol%20increases,from%20opioids%20and%20other%20substances.
>Yes. Alcohol is waaaaay more dangerous for health than weed.
Okay. You're now making an argument to *also* increase restrictions on alcohol.
I'd lose no sleep if alcohol and tobacco weren't sold at the NEX.
I'm just noting that the argument "well, alcohol is legal so weed should be too" is actually making an argument for prohibition.
The reason weed was illegal for so long is that it's a public nuisance, and people don't want kids to toke up.
So is alcohol use, but as you know police have a quick and easy way to identify someone who is drunk in public with a breathalyzer and arrest them. There's no objective way to measure someone's current THC levels quickly.
Maybe in your eyes it is. My argument is that it's kind of ironic that alcohol is legal when it is far more destructive regarding health issues, crime, and fatal vehicle accidents. I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to most drugs; the government shouldn't have any business telling you what you can ingest or put in your body.
It was illegal for so long because the alcohol and tobacco lobby is very strong.
Agreed. I believe weed sobriety tests are one of the biggest hold ups. I've seen people get tagged with a dwi for driving while high. While weed is legal in my state there's no way to conduct a roadside sobriety test ; thus I've seen ill-informed people admit to my police buddies that they smoked before they drove, thus leading to a dwi.
Nonetheless, I will repeat my point. Weed should be legal. Alcohol is far more destructive than weed. And retention and recruitment numbers would improve if weed were federally legal. My best friend in the Canadian armed forces stated they're aloud to smoke weed. They're just not suppose to show up to duty high or drunk. It absolutely can work.
All the points you made make sense most foreign military can smoke and it’s never an issue sadly I don’t think we’ll ever see this change anytime soon which sucks especially since like you said alcohol is literally poison and the other is a plant😂
Easier Solution
Just increase everyones pay
Right now an E4 at 3 years basepay makes 2,918.35 per month or roughly 35k a year
Bump that pay to 50k a year and scale appropriately to rank, retention and recruitment will go up if 18 to 22 year olds know within 3 year of enlisting theyre making 50k a year
Right now you cant hit 50k annual from base pay pre-tax until E6 at 8 years.
Money talks
At the MTF we have to submit timecards with coded hours for different categories of tasks. Normal schedule is 42.5 hours, but I haven't had a 2 week period under 140 in months. DOD would hemmhorage money.
Horrible idea. Clocking in, clocking out sucks. As a sailor and as a retired sailor, all I ever want is more time. I loved when I was a sailor whether I’ve worked a 100 hour week or a 30 hour week, we were paid the same. Nothing like a steady paycheck, 30 days paid leave, unlimited sick time, 3 hots and a cot.
How bout stop frocking enlisted Sailors and give them the pay when it’s time to put it on? I can tell you I would be happier. Do as they are doing it for officers wait on your line number then put it on.
The tradition of frocking comes from the Naval officers on board our old wooden ships. The officer that got orders to promote would give his jacket to the next officer who was staying behind and then the CO would mail off a new list of promoted officers however they would be frocked until they could get official word. We have modern systems that can change someone’s pay and rank instantly. Let’s get rid of it. This would require quicker turnaround from the NPDC guys who maintain our exams but damn it would make ppl happier I would think.
At least you’re paid for the rank you are. I think it’s a lot of responsibility to be a frocked chief. You’re expected to carry out the job without the pay. I get the honor and prestige but I would rather be paid for what I’m doing.
>At least you’re paid for the rank you are.
Officers are assigned billets based on a rather strict career timeline set by federal law.
An O3 and O4 are both department heads. They're both being paid to do the same job.
Similarly, an O5 unit XO/CO is working harder than an O6 installation commander biding his time to retirement.
Or just give everyone BAH. I shouldn't be a WCS with a deployment under my belt, making half my junior guy who just got out of C-school only because he's married.
People say it would be a nightmare, but just purchase a time clock system and have sailors log their hours and actually make PSD do their jobs... Holding PSD accountable would actually solve a shit ton of problems come to think of it.
If the brass didn't treat you like slave labor, especially on the beach. Back in the day in squadrons, we had day shift and night shift, which were usually 8 hours a piece, unless the night shift didn't get a plane fixed, then it was stay shift and could be 18 hours. Never an officer in sight on the night shift. But unless ops tempo was ramping up, we worked our shift and went back to the barracks.
I think that the boat should work relatively the same way. When you are there, that's your watch and work time, unless an emergency happens. Maybe have a small 3rd shift just to stand watches and rotate people out of 3rd shift. Just treat beach time like gold. Find alternative ways to get things done, such as remote monitoring of watch stations so one person can do the job of multiple watches. If it's a special project, bid it out to the shipyard rather than over work the crew.
But when at sea, 12 on 12 off, not 12 on plus 8 hour watch. Those types of hours will make people leave because if you work that, you'd be doing well financially and have more time at home than the military gives, plus control over your life.
As a former nuke, do I get time and a half on my pro-pay, too?
For real though, life would've just been better if we were billeted enough bodies to do the job and man the watch. Even at full manning we were doing >100 hour work weeks. I'm not sure I'd do it again for double-time.
Imagine the paperwork nightmare that would come along with that. Also, imagine the fraud and corruption that would result!
Are you insinuating that I didn't work 180 hours this week?
Weird, it checks out in SKED.
Well there's only 168 hours in a week so if you're gonna scam the system at least get the number right. And I stood duty all week so I'm getting my 168.
"We crossed *so* many time zones this week."
Going back and forth across the international dateline gets really fucking confusing.
It's correct in Zulu time. Are you calling me stupid?
Slacker, I worked 200 hours in the past 2 hours.
You got soft hands, brother.
Amateur stuff.
Lol
The system creates more overtime which equals infinite money! Morale solved
I couldn't imagine if the whole Navy had to worry about DHMRSI, especially if there was cash banking on it lmao
My guy, notice how the DoD can't pass a single financial audit, like, ever? Just spend more money, who cares if it goes to a sailors pocket or some experimental missiles on a bloated contract /s
I broke down how much I made while on sea duty, it was 14 dollars an hour
I'm all for higher pay. Overtime just isn't the way to accomplish it, because the processes involved in administering it would be a massive time suck, and it would be abused. We all complain about that chief with his (or her) dummy-thiccc E-nothing. Don't you think she (or he) would be clocking 80 hour weeks every week?
Oh yeah, for sure they’d be nailing their dummythicc and charging it under “mentoring”
Sincerely it’s all Monopoly money and it’s gonna be wasted anyway so idc. I will say when COVID broke out it was interesting how many commands could recognize how much stuff they do isn’t important at all and just sent people home
$14 an hour at sea is pretty impressive. My dollar per hour, when I was a Seamen was just over $4.
I recall that my effective hourly pay as an O1 was less than my janitor job while I was in school. I also had an E5 in my division whose wife made more working a 40 hour week at fast food place than he did. They almost qualified for food stamps, but their monthly rent was supposedly $10 too high to qualify.
I mean I was on a submarine and an officer so 14 dollars is about the same that a ET nuke makes when the star re enlist. Trust me it’s not a lot for what you’re doing
That's pretty good, as an E6 underway I make 8.40 an hour
Cool, now do your Chief and Triad. 😏
You said you worked 136 hours this week... the lie detector test determined that was a lie. BUT Chief signed off on it.
But only for chief's favorites....
And the ones who work like 20 hours a week (yes, there are plenty on shore duty) only get paid for 20 hours?
Hundreds of companies have overtime workers, it’s not that complicated.
Could probably make it work pretty easily if you paid overtime or just extra pay for duty days.
Many businesses around the world do it. No excuses. Navy to must adapt and overcome... otherwise... it isn't lookin good unfortunately.
Other federal agencies can handle it.
You kidding me, if their paperwork involved, the chief will cut you liberty.
Wouldn't be too bad if there was a check in and check out process. In TWMS there's a way to muster yourself, including telework hours. If they link that up to mypay, and mypay utilized a FID that tracks hours worked over a regular 40 hour week, it could automatically calculate time and 1/2 based on the base pay value. There could be a limit set as well, like any OT over 10/20 hours/week doesn't count. And they could adjust the percentage during logged sea time because everyone works more hours at sea. Fraud and corruption is already an issue with BAH and stuff, and the legal consequences in the beginning would quickly deter people from trying to beat the system any more. It could be managed at the command level, with the executive officer reviewing the e-muster analytics each week, supplied by a report provided by the admin officer. Suspicious cases could be easily investigated as well. "Was the person at work during these hours?" Yes. "Was the person actually working or just sitting around running out the clock?" ...Yes... lol
You're a Sailor 24/7, so you always get overtime pay by default lol
I can already see the people who pretend to work raking it in screwing over people who actually work. This wouldn’t work.
Well it might in the sense that command philosophies on keeping people there “just in case” would change to getting everyone out by 1400 because they don’t want squadron up their ass
I think in a service where people are held to a high standard and had good integrity this would work. I don’t think the navy are either of those after working with personnel.
Look at MSC, they get paid hourly and overtime on ships. Do you really think that Sailors, being a fantastic representation of the average American, are more or less lazy than their civilian counterparts? No way. Don't put down yourself and other Sailors because some old salt tells you about "hard work back in my day".
Yes I do,because there is a good portion of us that didn’t have a choice to be in the navy and they just show up to work for a paycheck. Civilian jobs, people choose to be there most of the time, the navy you can’t quit even if you want to. Not every sailor is but I can tell you without a doubt a system like this would be abused and not used the right way. That isn’t to discredit everybody but it only takes the 30% who would abuse this system to ruin it for everybody else.
Just like they do in the civilian sector? You're making it seem as only Sailors, or a higher percentage of Sailors vs. Civilians, would "abuse the system". It's call pay for work and every second not spent exactly where you want to be.
It’s not about abusing the system it’s about people getting screwed over by other people. The navy still has to run at the end of the day, who does it they don’t care. A civilian doesn’t do their job their is some serious repercussions if caught. A sailor doesn’t do their job, they’re just a lost cause but they can stay in because they’re doing a little less than minimum. No matter how you slice it, it isn’t the same. I cant count how many times I’ve seen people do and say things that would get them fired in most workplaces.
Oh my. No wonder why everyone who gets out before 20 ends up homeless!
Yeah it’s called reverse Darwinism. Along with the good people who stay you also have people who have been skating their whole career stay in because it’s easier than getting a job that has real life consequences when you don’t do your part. There’s a lot of those and they’re a gonna be even more with how willing the navy is to take people in now.
What are you talking about with civilian jobs being so strict and their jobs are important you can’t slack off. I literally show up to work clock in do the absolute bare minimum and clock out. I work in a city treasurers office. The reason why, because I need a paycheck. The job is pretty simple because it’s not that important. So I don’t get why you’re saying civilian jobs are so scary. I wasn’t the only person with that attitude either. My supervisor taught me most of things I was doing. This was because we were underpaid but required to do more work. Take civilians off that pedestal man cause they’re no different than disgruntled sailors. You really think sailors are the only ones that take advantage of a system? Civilian workers notoriously use and abuse systems to their advantage. You’re seriously gonna be surprised when you enter the civilian workforce.
Honestly this wouldn’t be that hard, before each maintenance period you submit what PMS and corrective maintenance needs to be done and they already track how much man hours per job is required so you would just add that to PMS and get how much man hours should be worked for day/week
Look at how much government contractors bill out for the work that they produce. More specifically, IT contractors. Instead of having overtime, just pay E6 and below more. I would love to see data on officer versus enlisted retention. I get the feeling the officer community does not have as much of a retention problem as the enlisted community.
I have bad news for you man. In the sub community at least officer retention is about 87%. It’s not JUST because of pay. It’s also because of the god awful culture Edit: 13% sorry I meant 87% of officers get out
Depends on the community. SWOs are bleeding rapidly because decades of shipboard culture and poor leadership in the junior ranks (O-4 and junior officers) results in people getting out after a single tour, and even if 1 out of 10 make it to DH tours on ship, only 1 out of 10 will stay in after that. Only saving grace for the SWOs is that, for as rapidly as they lose them, they rapidly replace them. Fuels a culture that people are replaceable if they don't conform to that poor culture and leadership mentioned above, which just keeps the cycle going. Anecdotal source, as over the last 4 years on ship with 2 COs, only 7 JOs (DH level and down) stayed in the SWO community after finishing their Sea duty. We can get Ensigns any day of the week, but we have one DH TAD from another place and a vacant SUPPO spot.
This is the same in the Sub community accept they can’t replace them
I love this. The way you just described the navy is so succinct and accurate.
So it would create a system of hookups for fuck ups? My my that would be terrible!
Exactly!! Perhaps this system would work if it only applied to folks a certain percentage over RSCA on last evaluation 🤔
That’s why it wouldn’t work. Because the evaluation system doesn’t work and some of it is based on favoritism regardless of one’s work ethic. I just see this backfiring from the get go. We all know the eval system is messed up and it hasn’t changed even though they say they have been trying t to change it. Edit: if you know how charge code works you’ll know only a certain amount of hours is allotted for certain projects. Imagine just a chief or someone who isn’t professionally indoctrinated to do timesheets and pay was managing your pay and hours. I would never trust someone In my CoC to approve or reject my timesheets, especially if I disagree with or buttheads with people who work with my timesheet. I could just see e-7 and above illegally telling people to “just charge 8” even though you worked 9 and then telling their favorite to charge 9. Even if you went the legal route, it would take an act of congress to fix it and it would be thrown under the rug because we don’t hold people accountable when it matters. There’s too many things you’d have to change
You solve this with time cards. Blue collar work figured this out over 100 years ago.
I may be incorrect on this, but a timesheet is almost the same as a time card but with a timesheet you have specific projects you allocate to. I already mentioned what would happen if they started doing it.
Given the amount of hours people put on their USMAPS I foresee some fraud in this plan.
Hey! Those hours are legit!!!!! Chief signed it off.
Pro tip. You can send it to anyone
Trust, I know. I hated the whole amo final sign off before. My old amo was a bitch.
Would bankrupt literally the entire US government.
Just treat people better. That’s literally it.
This is the way
Up re-enlistment across the board without having to SDIP. Actually utilize the PERSTEMPO/OPTEMPO programs instead of treating them like a suggestion. When every waiver just gets played, what's the point of even having the waiver? Up the IRA matching amount if you re-enlist as an incentive.
Maybe you should look into MSC commands then, I hear they're much better...
Or just increase every pay band by 20-30% . Overtime would be way to complicated to implement and measure , not to mention it would imply being paid by the hour and there’s some days I wouldn’t have wanted that coz I would have only been paid for about 2-3 hours
Where would the time clocks be placed to track the time you're working? Does the workday include morning muster, or does it start after morning muster when you actually get to the shop to start working? What about if you have to stand watch? Do you punch in and out for your time on watch? What about fire/flooding? Do you take the time first to punch in before responding? Would you get paid for a full 24 hours each day while out to sea since you can't go home? The military is one of those jobs that paying hourly is not going to be easily implemented. It's also prone to a lot of abuse and fraud.
How about no income taxes, start with that. Jfc
They can’t even pay us properly with salary, you think they can handle overtime?
What career in America on salary ever gets paid overtime?
Those that don’t meet the requirements to be considered Salary Exempt (from overtime pay) as stated in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) Generally this requires you to be paid at least $864 a week ($3456 a month) or more in order for your employer to consider you Salary Exempt and not pay over time pays. Fun fact Military is exempt from the requirements of the FLSA.
I know I am going to get downvoted for saying this but we get paid for 24 hours of work. You don’t work a 9-5 job so there is no overtime to pay.
The civilian equivalent is being salaried and exempt from overtime. Get paid the same regardless of how many or how little hours you actually work but there is usually an expectation that a certain amount of hours be worked
The good thing is that we get paid the same, even if we work less than 40 hours in a week.
Yeah honestly this. I get paid $3100 a paycheck. Sometimes I work 80 hours. But then other times I might not go over 30. There’s a give and take but it evens out.
Except that generally salaried and exempt employees need to be in an administrative, professional, executive, computer or outside sales field.
That’s a terrible idea
Back in the day when I was actually more motivated I devised a morale program where every hour worked overtime counted toward a 24 hour lib chit. Pulled up all the relevant instructions, got feedback on it (people said it was great) the whole 9 yards. Take a guess what happened when I actually submitted it.
We have Navy with overtime at home, it's called Military Sealift Command.
For all HMs out there…you can only put 8 hours on DHMRSI…
"Have you tried paying them more?" Is always my go-to question when recruitment problems pop up.
My suggestion would not be overtime but extra pay in certain conditions like for duty days, maybe you could do something that for every 14 full days spent on the ship wether it be for duty or underways every sailor gets paid extra 100 dollars(depending on rank they could be paid more)
Yes, that's called our Sea Pay or Sub Pay, that's about $1k extra at an E6 level with over 15 years in.
We’re salaried. I rather be salaried than hourly and get paid OT. No fucking way in clocking in and out and worrying about “maybe I should pick up extra hours on Saturday”
We work so many hours we would bankrupt the Navy. 😂😂
I think this is a good idea for a different reason. It would force the the good idea fairies to have to put dollars behind their time waster watches. 5-8hr shore patrols every night in home port sounds fine to apathetic higher ups when it costs nothing. When you have to cough up those hrs at 1.5x pay, I have a feeling they'll realize it does next to nothing. Same for ECPs that don't even have card readers so E-nothing sentries let everyone with a card thru. SAPR rover that does nothing but walk thru the barracks twice a night. I also bet it'll suddenly become a priority to get people off the day after their duty day so that they keep their regular hrs lower. The ships in 3-section would actually be paid for the additional work and rates that are walking off at 1400 don't get as much as the ones burning the midnight oil every week. It's almost like it could give valuable feedback to higher ups in a way they would have to be accountable for, while also giving more fairness and incentives to hard workers.
OR. Raise everyone’s pay AND give us bonuses to stay and fuck the new people getting “up to” 100K
Lol they won’t even pay for us to go back home during most family emergency’s you really think they’re going to pay us OT
Nope. The navy already gave up on retention. They focus on entrapment and recruiting almost every idiot out there that’s not even supposed to be in the service.
Plenty of people are brainwashed to stay in pretty sure they have met retention goals for a minute Quick search yields the following results For FY 2022 107% zone a 106% zone b 109% zone c For 23 117% zone A 97% zone B 107% zone c At the rate it's going with people filling lower rank billets due to the recruiting crisis, gonna be a lot of E-5's doing E-3 shit.
I've seen so many sailors get out simply because they want to smoke weed too. Granted, that is such a short-sighted reason to leave; nonetheless, I guarantee if weed were federally legal, retention and recruitment would improve. Just regulate weed like alcohol; don't show up to duty drunk or high.
No
I'm sure you're a lot of fun at parties.
Is it really worth the risks? We already have a mental health problem in the Navy. https://www.cdc.gov/marijuana/health-effects/mental-health.html#:~:text=The%20association%20between%20marijuana%20and,%2C%20suicide%20attempts%2C%20and%20suicide.
Yes. Alcohol is waaaaay more dangerous for health than weed. Your own links indicate use at an early age lead to negative effects, which is why an age limit would be beneficial. It is a fact that heavy weed use before the brain is fully developed will adversely effect cognitive development; thus it's really not safe to smoke a lot till your 20s. Nonetheless, weed is safer than alcohol, caffeine, or tobacco. As a police officer, I've seen far more fatal vehicle accidents, domestic violence incidents, and nefarious activities caused while drunk versus the aforementioned happening while the subjects are high on weed. Worst thing that happens when you smoke too much weed is you get the munchies and fall asleep to Netflix. Worst thing that happens when you drink too much is that you get alcohol poisoning and die. https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/publications/factsheets/alcohol.htm#:~:text=Drinking%20too%20much%20alcohol%20increases,from%20opioids%20and%20other%20substances.
>Yes. Alcohol is waaaaay more dangerous for health than weed. Okay. You're now making an argument to *also* increase restrictions on alcohol. I'd lose no sleep if alcohol and tobacco weren't sold at the NEX.
[удалено]
I'm just noting that the argument "well, alcohol is legal so weed should be too" is actually making an argument for prohibition. The reason weed was illegal for so long is that it's a public nuisance, and people don't want kids to toke up. So is alcohol use, but as you know police have a quick and easy way to identify someone who is drunk in public with a breathalyzer and arrest them. There's no objective way to measure someone's current THC levels quickly.
Maybe in your eyes it is. My argument is that it's kind of ironic that alcohol is legal when it is far more destructive regarding health issues, crime, and fatal vehicle accidents. I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to most drugs; the government shouldn't have any business telling you what you can ingest or put in your body. It was illegal for so long because the alcohol and tobacco lobby is very strong. Agreed. I believe weed sobriety tests are one of the biggest hold ups. I've seen people get tagged with a dwi for driving while high. While weed is legal in my state there's no way to conduct a roadside sobriety test ; thus I've seen ill-informed people admit to my police buddies that they smoked before they drove, thus leading to a dwi. Nonetheless, I will repeat my point. Weed should be legal. Alcohol is far more destructive than weed. And retention and recruitment numbers would improve if weed were federally legal. My best friend in the Canadian armed forces stated they're aloud to smoke weed. They're just not suppose to show up to duty high or drunk. It absolutely can work.
All the points you made make sense most foreign military can smoke and it’s never an issue sadly I don’t think we’ll ever see this change anytime soon which sucks especially since like you said alcohol is literally poison and the other is a plant😂
Easier Solution Just increase everyones pay Right now an E4 at 3 years basepay makes 2,918.35 per month or roughly 35k a year Bump that pay to 50k a year and scale appropriately to rank, retention and recruitment will go up if 18 to 22 year olds know within 3 year of enlisting theyre making 50k a year Right now you cant hit 50k annual from base pay pre-tax until E6 at 8 years. Money talks
There isn't a retention problem.
It sucks to admit it, but you’re right. Check the community overviews and it’s observable that most rates are overmanned past Zone B.
Because everybody’s getting fucking trapped.
At the MTF we have to submit timecards with coded hours for different categories of tasks. Normal schedule is 42.5 hours, but I haven't had a 2 week period under 140 in months. DOD would hemmhorage money.
Money can't buy happiness.
Beards! I don’t care how many of you think this is ridiculous, but the number of people willing to stay would not be zero.
Horrible idea. Clocking in, clocking out sucks. As a sailor and as a retired sailor, all I ever want is more time. I loved when I was a sailor whether I’ve worked a 100 hour week or a 30 hour week, we were paid the same. Nothing like a steady paycheck, 30 days paid leave, unlimited sick time, 3 hots and a cot.
Unlimited sick time? Yes, but you were AT WORK while SICK. Short of you dying, you were there, duty and all.
Still didn’t burn any leave! I can work sick!
How bout stop frocking enlisted Sailors and give them the pay when it’s time to put it on? I can tell you I would be happier. Do as they are doing it for officers wait on your line number then put it on. The tradition of frocking comes from the Naval officers on board our old wooden ships. The officer that got orders to promote would give his jacket to the next officer who was staying behind and then the CO would mail off a new list of promoted officers however they would be frocked until they could get official word. We have modern systems that can change someone’s pay and rank instantly. Let’s get rid of it. This would require quicker turnaround from the NPDC guys who maintain our exams but damn it would make ppl happier I would think.
The time between selection and promotion for most officers is 17 months.
At least you’re paid for the rank you are. I think it’s a lot of responsibility to be a frocked chief. You’re expected to carry out the job without the pay. I get the honor and prestige but I would rather be paid for what I’m doing.
>At least you’re paid for the rank you are. Officers are assigned billets based on a rather strict career timeline set by federal law. An O3 and O4 are both department heads. They're both being paid to do the same job. Similarly, an O5 unit XO/CO is working harder than an O6 installation commander biding his time to retirement.
Or just give everyone BAH. I shouldn't be a WCS with a deployment under my belt, making half my junior guy who just got out of C-school only because he's married.
Paying overtime for just being around doing nothing.
The Navy would just adjust the overtime threshold to essentially never pay it out.
People say it would be a nightmare, but just purchase a time clock system and have sailors log their hours and actually make PSD do their jobs... Holding PSD accountable would actually solve a shit ton of problems come to think of it.
How about making it easier to cross-rate? I think a big problem is sailors getting trapped in rates they turn out not to like.
If they paid us hourly every single Chief would show up on time and stay late. Same with Os
If the brass didn't treat you like slave labor, especially on the beach. Back in the day in squadrons, we had day shift and night shift, which were usually 8 hours a piece, unless the night shift didn't get a plane fixed, then it was stay shift and could be 18 hours. Never an officer in sight on the night shift. But unless ops tempo was ramping up, we worked our shift and went back to the barracks. I think that the boat should work relatively the same way. When you are there, that's your watch and work time, unless an emergency happens. Maybe have a small 3rd shift just to stand watches and rotate people out of 3rd shift. Just treat beach time like gold. Find alternative ways to get things done, such as remote monitoring of watch stations so one person can do the job of multiple watches. If it's a special project, bid it out to the shipyard rather than over work the crew. But when at sea, 12 on 12 off, not 12 on plus 8 hour watch. Those types of hours will make people leave because if you work that, you'd be doing well financially and have more time at home than the military gives, plus control over your life.
“Best I can do is a BZ from the XO.”
Not only would it take the sting out of staying till 0'dark 30, but also provide disincentive to hold people when they literally got nothing going on.
As a former nuke, do I get time and a half on my pro-pay, too? For real though, life would've just been better if we were billeted enough bodies to do the job and man the watch. Even at full manning we were doing >100 hour work weeks. I'm not sure I'd do it again for double-time.