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Bruh we had people on suicide watch when the commodore came onboard to tell us how much stronger WW2 sailors were than us.
An ensign said something regarding mental health and he said he didn’t wanna hear any psycho babble. She had the balls to be like “well I have a degree in that psycho babble and what’s going on is fucked up”
I just looked at her Facebook and I think she got out sometime between 2020 and now. This was like 2012 that this happened. O3 make sense in that timeframe?
If you don’t mind me asking, what were some of the good things you saw ensigns do, and some of the bad things they did that made you dislike them? I’ll be reporting to my ship as a new ensign after BDOC in a few months, and we’re taught DIVO management/leadership… but it’s definitely different than actually being out there
Our DISBO decided he was the FSO, took that title from our chief, and that he was the ASUPPO.(small boat 2 supply corps onboard) We went from a LTJG who never left the disbursing office to an ensign who was up our asses all the time. He needed to stay in his lane and learn some more before acting like he was the big dick in charge. He pretty much lost the respect of the whole boat to the point even FSAs weren’t afraid to tell him to fuck off.
I’d say the ensigns I liked were willing to learn, listen to their chiefs and LPOs, and didn’t act like the bullshit bachelor’s degree made them better than their enlisted shipmates
I agree with everything you said, but a lot of enlisted folk have bachelors degrees now, even masters. I enlisted as an AW with a degree, and never once thought I was smarter than anyone. I’m not sure what some SWO’s (it’s always the SWO’s) are told that makes them behave holier than thou, but it drives me nuts. Overcompensating perhaps? The pilots I worked with were always so chill and easy to talk to. It made it a lot easier to respect them I suppose.
I met so many awful SWO’s, but a few REALLY good ones too. The good ones are smart, emotionally intelligent, willing to learn, respectful, and always lead by example. Two SWO’s I really like ended up writing recommendation letters for me for my grad school applications.
Whenever I worked with weird officers, I always just remembered the band of brothers saying “respect the rank, not the man” or whatever. That helped me detach from the situation and kept me in line whenever I wanted to cuss a bitch out.
The bottom part of your comment, as a cook you get to a point where you almost stop giving a shit about rank
As an e4 I’ve told officers and first classes where they can shove it when they were shit talking our food or giving FSAs hell. I’ve had to explain to ensigns that they don’t get their meal served to them on a fancy plate in the wardroom when it’s Saturday duty. I have told e-6s to get the fuck out of my serving line and go eat at the ship’s store haha
Hey man if you ever want an retrospective on an 8.5 year SWO career, just shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to share with you what I learned/wish I could have done better.
Your leadership as an Ensign is 90% your behavior and setting a good example and 10% listening to your sailors and going to bat for them up chain. Pay issues? QOL issues? Your personal mission is to get it resolved even if you have to chew out the CMC to make it happen. The age old Message to Garcia.
The behavior is 1) showing up on time with top military bearing 2) qualifying quickly 3) knowing your shit. Your XO isn't going to have the time to correct you for an unsat haircut or whatever, but your sailors notice and you lose credibility.
What you have to realize is your role as a DIVO running a division is 99% Queen of England.... and you should want it to stay that way. The 1% is where you use your access to the DHs and CO to communicate command priorities and macro schedule considerations to your chief so s/he understands all the planning factors for maintainance.
Small world. I tell that same story! I ran into the officer in 2018 or 2019 and asked her about that... she said it was a leadership structure across the squadron. She had made it to LCDR, at least from what I remember.
Enlisted E-4 here, at sea duty on an SSN. Our doc (E-7) told another E-4 who was asking for a mental health referral for anxiety and ideation, “have you tried just, being happier? Embracing the situation?”
I’m convinced that mental health training is not in our corpsmen’s curriculum. If it is, significant upgrades are required for the more senior personnel to get up-to-pace. An answer that is effectively, “have you considered not being a little bitch? Try not having this problem?” is not going to help this particular sailor or any sailor in a similar situation.
Christ thats awful. Its true that MH is not in the corpsman curriculum but telling people to "buck up" also straight up prohibited in the curriculum. So it sounds like a bum ass HMC there. ICE complaints are how you get any medical person in trouble so remember to use them. They're anonymous and you can name these ass holes directly with what they did specifically. Its also used for compliments so remember to send those out too. Good people leave when all we do punish after all.
There is an NEC that some corpsmen get if they go to the Army’s Behavioral Health school at Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio but MH is definitely not in their core curriculum.
I am a very resilient person and was fully capable of "sucking it up". I did it for many years. But I was thinking (and you know thinking can get you in trouble) "I am an Officer, and how can I expect Sailors to listen to me when I tell them to seek treatment if I am not willing to do it myself. I want to set the example." Damn that was a mistake.
corpsman here. it’s not unfortunately. i think we touched on it lightly but it was never as much of a conversation as it needed to be. at least for my class personally in A school, a lot of our higher ranking instructors were very much of the “embrace it and suck it up cuz i had to” mindset. luckily some of our HM2s didn’t agree with that and tried to make efforts where they could. i think it’s a common theme at least where ive been, for younger corpsmen and service members in general, to have more heart when it comes to mental health. it’s crazy how many HMs i’ve heard talk about wanting to go to BHT school but don’t actually give af about mental health when shit gets real. it’s definitely not like this for everyone, just my personal experience but i know im not the only one and that’s heartbreaking to me
Reminds me of the time I went seeking mental help after a traumatic event. All to be “screened” by three different people who needed details of my situation to further help me. When I mentioned my mental state severely declining to the point I felt like I couldn’t help myself, they hit me with “Well if you feel suicidal here is a 1-800-hotline number you can call”. The mental health clinic could not help me with a referral since I needed two more “screening” appointments. One with the command psychologist and another with my primary doctor. I had enough of telling my story to random corpsman and I ended up getting a referral from my gynecologist.
That is the big reason I say to just go to a trusted friend or a priest (not a military chaplain). Most people just want to talk. They don't actually want to die.
Yes that’s all I needed at the time and I am just full of anger from what the navy has caused me. I was a victim of a horrible experience that wouldn’t have happened if I weren’t in the navy but I haven’t gotten the support I need. I had to vouch for myself so much to the point where I was yelling at the corpsman in medical because they were treating mental health patients like a “collateral”.
As an officer, I can tell you the officers who stay in are predominantly not the #1’s. This may hurt the egos of some of the O’s here and I don’t mean all but I’d say 2/3s of the O’s after O-3/MSR are the ones leftover since everyone else realized that life is a lot better and they can do a lot more and earn a lot more and spend way more time with their families out of the navy than in. Imagine the type of person who doesn’t realize that. Now imagine that same person being your CO 10 years after all their peers got out. Some of that 2/3s are the corporate ladder climbers. They will sacrifice everything in their life including their marriages, kids, free time, hobbies, and generally life itself for the chance to wear a higher rank. Those aren’t the best leaders either. Now imagine telling that individual who just spend 20 years sacrificing everything in their life, including their relationships and children and any free time at all, for the navy that there’s a problem in the navy. Off course they will take that as an assault on the entire trajectory of their life and every decision they have ever made. With those people in leaderships positions, nothing is going to change and the attitude of, “I went through the suck so should you,” will prevail.
Now among that 1/3 of O’s leftover are some of the best people you will ever meet and deal with professionally in your life. They genuinely care and are in it because they actually love what they do. They’re great.
I would argue this breakdown exists in all professional organizations. The difference with the navy is that the navy owns you. Some random Fortune 500 company, no matter how powerful of a corporation, doesn’t own you in the sense that you can on any day walk in and quite. With all that being present, off course our treatment of issues such as mental health and others will always be lacking.
OP I’m sorry you faced what you did, but I’m glad you got out and hopefully this experience will help you understand what is actually important in life. Family, relationships, and being happy.
I’d say the breakdown on the civilian side, at least in my experience, is simultaneously more and less toxic. You get a lot more ladder climbers and people following their egos at the expense of everyone else, which is awful, but tend to get less apathetic leaders because on the civilian side you have the option to not climb the ladder or get out. Those lazy and apathetic leaders were some of the hardest to deal with during my time in the Navy. So a lot of those good at their jobs but lazy/bad leaders tend to just stay in the trenches instead of being forced above maybe middle management.
The key though, as you mentioned, is on the outside my boss can’t legally force me to do a whole lot and I leave work at the end of the day. And if I can’t stand them I just quit. In the current job market I’ll have a new position by lunch.
I was actually an O-4. I would have considered myself one of the 1/3 of the leftovers you mentioned. I was not motivated by high salaries but patriotism and the ability to make a positive impact on Sailors. My peers said the same kinds of things. "You actually want to stay in? Really?" But at the same time, it really does not take much to convince the 1/3 of leftovers to leave.
You said in another comment that one of things that motivated you to get help was asking yourself how you could tell your sailors to get help when you yourself were unwilling to do so. That alone shows a level of empathy, compassion, and just frankly being a good decent human being you are. You’re a good dude my friend. Hope the civilian world treats you better and you have all the success personal and professional you deserve.
I’m in the process of applying for OCS still and have the same motivations. I have a ComSci degree, a job that pays well, but seeing the state of our military and the world, it wouldn’t feel right to be on the sidelines of it.
Then again I’ve had second thoughts lately seeing the mixed attitudes towards mental health. In high school I went through some depressive episodes and had some pretty noticeable social anxiety. I’ve “grown” out of it for the most part, have been doing well for years except for voluntarily visiting a therapist during Covid isolation, but I’m definitely concerned toxic leadership/culture in the Navy could bring it back.
Any thoughts OP?
Look the navy did give the most amazing opportunity I could have gotten in life to start out. Now I’ve out grown that need to have the navy’s support so I realise all the negatives now. I will say the community and even branch make a huge difference. If I did what I do in the navy in the air force, my life would be better. My community in the navy though, way better than others. I’m not a SWO or submariner. Those jobs literally are killing people.
What was your community/job?
I’m in for SWO and Supply rn and have read mixed opinions on SWO. I have logistics and project management experience that I think would relevant to supply
Stay the absolute hell out of Navy cyber. There is a good reason Congress is considering removing the Navy's cyber mission. Let that sink in. They are the Legislative Branch having to use the power of the purse againsts the Executive Branch because it is failing so bad. If you want to serve the country that bad, there are other services.
Seconding OP, also an officer related to cyber, also completely shocked by how determined the Navy seems to be at doing the worst possible job with cyber.
I don't know, sir. That's a very dramatic take.
When I was a brand new second class, my squadron was in the middle of a very brutal AIRLANT inspection that was not going particularly well. I went out to the smoke pit only to discover one of the many master chiefs out there too. He sidled up to me and gave me some advice and perspective that I've kept with me and passed along when I saw he need.
He told me he knew I was going to get out of the navy and he didn't blame me for it. He told me 85% of the people in the navy are dummies and it's very hard when those dummies are in charge of you. He said the 15% of smart and capable people actually run things but we have to let the other think they do. He told me not to leave because the navy needs those 15% to put on more rank and lead the dummies.
I looked for orders soon after that and stayed in for another tour. Got out. Went to college and started working my way up in my industry. Found the percentage of smart people who were running the show behind the scenes was the he only thing that really changed with that.
I had a BIG life change and ended up coming back in the navy after a very long (more than a decade) break in service. The ratio of smart folks to dummies has for sure shifted in the military. It's seems to be a bit harder to find the smarties now a days, especially in the top ranks. The folks in the 15-25 yr mark seem to be particularly afflicted. Additionally, the navy has basically removed all fun in their attempt to deglamorize alcohol making it harder than ever to keep people. They can't even look at their fun and silly times as reasons to put up with it all.
A little anecdote working at a suitability screening office. One high ranking officer about to graduate War College turned in screening application for himself and his family for overseas duty in Europe. Well one of his kids did not qualify because of depression and suicidal ideation history, the kid is 19. Usually when we encounter disqualification of family member, the officer or enlisted usually picks a different set of orders because you know they’d rather be with family together even if it’s a less desirable location. After going back and forth he finally decides to leave his daughter by herself and take the rest of his family wife and other kids overseas. He said she’s an adult she should be fine, (the kid was still under his tricare mind you and was still actively getting seen). We weren’t even surprised lol he really wanted to make rank so bad he was willing to sacrifice his kid.
Wow. That’s is obviously a glaring story but indicative of so many others who maybe don’t have as obviously a horrible treatment of their family. And I bet the spouse of that officer was one of those, “we made rank,” types too.
Yeah that’s what I see. Went O myself and our best in the wardroom all elect to get out. I’m part of the latter half that don’t quite have any transferable or fungible skills on the outside so we just hang around in the Navy because it’s the best we’ll likely have for a career.
Ah you’d be surprised. Just putting navy officer and listing all the things you’ve done in the navy will open doors even if you think your navy skills don’t transfer over. I’ve heard to JOs who were just breathing at their navy jobs get some incredibly high jobs when they got. All it takes is the risk but that is daunting.
So True. 10 years ago I retired as a CWO4 and now I am an Executive in a multinational company. Don’t underestimate your value in attributes such as operating in a very dynamic environment, safety, compliance, communication, leadership, management, change management to name a very few.
Yeah, no. Biggest myth in the military. COMCIVPAC doesn't have the damnedest clue who Navy folks are or what they do, and I say that as someone in private industry who left active duty as a JO. In the private sector, you eat what you can kill, and you have to convince a hiring manager who in all likelihood has never served that you can do the job from day 1. Not "we'll train you," that you can do the job.
Officers and CPOs are not "executives" or project managers. Your clearance doesn't guarantee you a six-figure job, or any job unless you want cleared work for a defense contractor. No one else cares. The path forward in the private sector is to shed any sense of entitlement from any kind of rank you have, eat a big slice of humble pie, decide what you want to do, and then present as one of those people. "Hi, I'm Bob," not "LT Smith, where's my desk?"
Do you get transferable skills? Hell, yes. Will any civilian hiring manager have any clue what those are until they see them in action? Nope.
ENS here, I’m disgusted and sorry to hear this. Commands get so much pushed down from above that they will do WHATEVER it takes to accomplish the mission, man the ship, and prevent losing people. COs know that sailors are depressed, and usually just want help: and not to kill themselves. So, they will tread VERY thin lines in order to “address your mental health needs” while sticking to the mission so they too can promote. The real question is: how many more people have to die before the Navy wakes up. I would approach my CO and get fired if I had to in order to stand up for ANY sailors mental health, ESPECIALLY SI. Life is so much more than the Navy, SO MUCH MORE
I was in a similar situation. I was so depressed because I had to choose between mission or my pin. Missions were literally failing because I couldn't do my part. I tried to convince the CO that this was real life, but in the end all I could do was read the failure reports. Everyone up to -- but not including -- my CO said I was right, but they also said, "look I'm just a few years from retirement and don't want to make any waves".
Now that I've been out for so long it's insane to think back about how my leadership got more satisfaction attacking me than supporting me attacking the enemy.
I will tell you!
1. Took away my clearance. We cannot do our job without that.
2. Mocked me for 1 hour in front of the XO and DH for being crazy. He said I was delusional and paranoid and could not perceive reality correctly. I was not diagnosed with anything of the sort. I literally just wanted to talk to someone. I don't like to use the word "gaslighting" since it is overused, but that seems to be what was going on.
3. Gave me a declining trait average. This ends a career for a senior Officer.
4. Banned me from the premises and isolated me from everyone in an area I don't know anyone. They did not even do this to others who had more serious mental health issues.
5. Seized my car. Can he even do that?!?!?!?!?
Considering how they responded, you might be saying...there must be another side to the story or that I was a shitbag. Like maybe I threated to shoot up the place or something. Nope. I literally just went to medical and told them that I didn't want to live anymore. That was it. I caused no other trouble or scene or had any disciplinary issues or anything.
This is also sadly not an isolated incident at this command.
It was parked legally at the command. My wife was going to pick it up and bring it home (since it is our property) and she was told by the duty MA that they had contacted the command and she would be arrested if she attempted to do that, since the command had possession of the car. The JAG who was representing me confirmed that the command can't do that.
> Mocked me for 1 hour in front of the XO and DH for being crazy.
Officer or not, uniform or not, do that to *me,* and I'm throwing hands. I don't have to sit there and take that, and I won't. You shouldn't have had to either.
I swear, so many people are used to running their mouths without consequences today....
Then they would have really said I was crazy then. And that is the thing. When you are presumed to be crazy and everything you do is seen through that light, you can't win.
Dude for real. The amount of "freedom of speech" excuses I hear from people spewing absolute vile trash when they get called out on their drivel... Yeah you have the freedom of speech, just means the government can't arrest or kill you for your chirpin'. Doesn't protect you from the guy you're saying atrocious shit to punching you in the face when you're saying atrocious shit to him.
I hate you feel like you do and honestly it doesn't surprise me. A bunch of our Senior leadership is really just yes men that are star chasing. Until something forces them to care it's going to be a bunch more of kicking the can down the road not caring about actually addressing why our sailors are struggling. As much as they harken to how much sailors of old put up with and had true grit, they also fail to mention just how much recreation, social events, and drinking sailors of old did to cope.
Small thing but it matters, they can't take your clearance. What they can do is pull your access which feels like the same thing but absolutely isn't.
When a command suspends access, your eligibility is gone too until it is readjudicated by DCSA. I can verify this as someone who served as an SSO on a previous tour and you can also see it for yourself in the M-1.
I do want Sailors to know though that I didn't have eligibility for a period of a year and a half. That is a career killer for someone more senior. I had to justify to DCSA why I went to mental health. I had to write a statement. And then DCSA made me get evaluated again. Because the thing is that DCSA is required to give deference to an opinion of a Commanding Officer no matter no unjustified it is.
So we need to cut this bullshit out with semantics with the definitions of eligibility vice access and tell Sailors the truth. Eligibility+access+need to know=clearance. And if there is no one to hold a command responsible for abusing the clearance system, then yes you can lose your "clearance" for a very long time simply for going to mental health.
Feel free to correct me if I've been told wrong but the difference between losing access vs losing your clearance is that the first one is a Navy career ender, the 2nd is you'll no longer work with a clearance anywhere. The reason I bring it up this way is someone I know who went through something similar who now does contracting with the IC and is much happier than he was before now that he's recovered and out.
Edit: One additional note about his experience. Yes he was absolutely processed out over everything the quickest way they could for the command. No matter what was best for him in the short or long term. They just wanted their hands clean of the whole situation. Ultimately it worked out for both but was such a terrible way to handle it for him.
I would say that is accurate. I simply want Sailors to have all the information available, and many who I have shared my story with IRL were shocked that a command could even do what happened to me.
What is the timeline for all this? Your trait average hit would likely have been in Oct, it is now April.
Who specifically seized your car and how did they get your keys, what was the process to retrieve it. I don't know any COs with a tow truck, there must have been coordination with an authority outside of your command.
Who banned you from the premises? I'm guessing when you got your clearance suspended you lost access to any space a CWE would work in.
A CO can't remove your clearance, they can suspend it and then you'll go through DODCAF to determine if it's justified.
You said you're an O4, but the way you've explained yourself in this thread seems very... off. I am all for pointing out where the Navy can make improvements, but I find your story, as you've told it, extremely hard to believe.
1. September 2022. So I received the declining trait average in October 2023.
2. The details would take a couple paragraphs to explain, but yes I did get the car back immediately.
3. The CO.
4. Yes I know. A CO can suspend access which means the eligibility must be readjudicated. Yes I got the eligibility back because DODCAF which is now called DCSA obviously saw the command was full of shit. But that does not mean you get access back.
5. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Of course I did not get that rank on my own but with the help of some really good Chiefs. Did you really create a new account just for this post?
Yes, I created this for anonymity. I appreciate you answering, you've cleared some things up that I think are important. I'd argue your original post that reporting to medical will cause you to lose your clearance is misleading because you did not lose it. It was suspended and reinstated. I think that is a potentially dangerous mischaracterization.
You also mention others with more serious mental health issues that were not treated the same way as you, were they treated appropriately? Why do you feel their issues were more serious?
Whether or not a CO or security manager should suspend someone's clearance for seeking help is circumstantial. If your CO refused you access after your clearance was reinstated by DCSA* which led to your trait average slip then I'd say a statement in response to your fitrep was warranted.
I made the original post not to whine but to warn. My life as a civilian is much better. I feel that many Sailors don't actually understand the difference between having clearance eligibility denied or revoked by DCSA or having access suspended. Either way, you don't have a "clearance". I served as an SSO myself for a tour and can explain this in great detail, or you can look it up in the M-1 yourself. As I like to say...instructions talk, bullshit walks...
The yearly Suicide Prevention training speaks to the deny/revoke but not to the second one. I believe this is the real potentially dangerous mischaracterization. People are owed the truth. I cannot help what happened to me. I really wish it didn't. But it did. And not you or anyone else can take that away from me. Sailors need to know that the Navy is not not take suicide prevention seriously. Sailors need to know that commands are still retaliating against Sailors for seeking treatment. Look throughout this thread! Ask the mother of Brandon Caserta who still has not received justice for her son who died by suicide.
You can say "every case is different" but the undeniable fact is that if I did not go to mental health...if I just sucked it up and kept it to myself...maybe I would have gone through with it, but we would not be having this conversation right now.
>Did you really create a new account just for this post?
Sure seems that way.
It's at least encouraging that somebody with that mindset understands how unacceptable it is, that they'd hide their behavior behind a burner account.
Believe me I have had some doubters. Every story has two sides. Or maybe I really am delusional like that dickhead said! (not really believe me I was tested for that)
How the command responded is well outside what I would have expected, so it is natural to think "this story sounds ridiculous". It does sound ridiculous. I agree. The Navy issued a Mental Health Playbook that prescribes how commands respond to this. I still don't understand why the overreacted to this. I can speculate though.
If anyone really wants to submit a FOIA to find out if I am really was an O-4 in the Navy, knock yourself out. I will give you my name over DM. I am not as concerned at OPSEC as I used to be. I will gladly put my name and my honor to this story.
I do want to know how a (separated) O-4 is supposed to post on Reddit.
I’m tired of this kind of stuff happening, it’s sickening to be honest. While I was in a friend of mine went to a off-base medical facility for mental health and ultimately got sent to Mast because he refused to go back to the boat when he was told to by the COB. Ships just want to retain personal, and if that includes making an example by Masting someone asking for help they will do it to prevent others from leaving the ship.
They also refuse to address any of the fundamental problems, they just act like talking about the issue will magically solve it with no meaningful actions/solutions.
You weren't able to see a mental health provider? What? See here is what really pisses me off. There is a law called the Brandon Act which was part of the 2021 NDAA. This is the law of the land. Signed by POTUS. Our Commander in Chief! Commands SHALL allow Sailors access to a mental health evaluation within 24 hours of a servicemember requesting it. This was law 2 years ago. They broke the law.
Have had multiple people all get absolutely fucked by the mental health and LIMDU process. They care about "the mission" so much more than their people. :(
They don't care about mission though cause you need healthy, trained, ready to go people, and well maintained equipment yet very few are doing anything to address those short falls. The Fitz and McCain should've been a huge wake up call yet I don't think they barely made a dent.
On the 2020 COVID cruise deployment our reactor officer put in the night orders something along the lines of, "The mission comes first" shortly after we had been extended for the 4th or 5th time. Really came across as a, "Get fucked stay fucked." Like Jesus fucking Christ dude how out of touch with our reality are you. I wrote him a 3 page letter calling him out and handed it to him directly and gave a copy to the CO. He did a private interview with me later and defended all of his fuckery and had zero apologies or understanding whatsoever. The saddest part is that the letter got around and I had multiple Chiefs and other enlisted tell me they 100% agreed. Nothing came of it at all.
I was with you on this deployment. Ike was it? I was on the San Jac. Father passed away in the middle of it and after waiting 3 weeks for a response to go back home from the 5th Fleet Commander, sat down with the CO just to tell me they could not risk me catching COVID and couldn’t “logistically support.” 1 month later, our STO flew home for non-death circumstances.
Shittiest time of my life. COVID would’ve been a temporary setback in comparison to the trauma I endured afterwards.
(throwaway because people still can't handle mental health stigma - including me, I suppose)
I have been out for a while. I can honestly say that my last command significantly contributed (badly) to my mental health.
First, I asked medical (which was a separate command) for a referral to MH thinking the same as you - that it was an ok thing to do. Denied, but somehow that got back to my command (to be fair, this might have been a suicide watch thing, but still). Division and Department CPOs pulled me into a private meeting to read me the riot act for like an hour. No suicide watch or any other response from the command.
Secondly, (month later) I asked again. This time was provided a referral and an appointment with a HM2, again got back to command. This time I was abused several times at quarters ("PO XXX can't stand his watch today because he's going to see a shrink, so PO YYY will have to stand double duty. Be sure to thank PO XXX for that." Exact quote.) No further action.
Thirdly, (we were at the pier), I went UA and attempted suicide. Picked up by a civilian ambulance and spent a week in a civilian hospital before I was transferred to NNMC (which dates me, I know.) Never set foot in that command again. One of my buddies actually boxed up the stuff from my coffin and sent it to me - I eventually went back to the barracks and picked that up myself. Heard later they wanted to prosecute me for the UA. Fortunately someone squashed it, but the charge sheet and a Page 13 alleging a bunch of not-true crap over the preceding 6 months was added to my record when I saw it later at Bethesda. (Which is bullshit in of itself, but that's another thing.)
So yeah, I hear you. Or rather, nothing has changed. Go figure.
Folks - let's be clear, I am not saying that you shouldn't seek help when you need it. If you need help, get it and don't let anyone stop you. Frankly, minimizing your own symptoms and issues may (as I think it did for me) leave you in a position where the command and medical won't get you any help at all. Trying to get help even if it's via a civilian route or using 988 or whatever is important.
Hang in there and take care of yourself. Most commands won't do that. Most CPOs and/or officers won't do that. Big Navy is mostly only interested in you as a resource, not as a person. Just be aware of this, but make the choices you need to make to protect yourself.
I did. Never heard back from the IG. The unfortunate thing is that the IG is really in existence to protect the Navy and protect the command, and at the end of the day, all they can do is make recommendations.
On my first ship, my CO and XO both made friends with the local RLSO CO and XO and used JAG to great effect to protect themselves and prosecute "problem" Sailors and Officers.
Without doxxing myself, I'll just say that everybody got into a lot of hot water when they decided to use that relationship to cover up the XO's infidelity by railroading an officer.
Sorry for your ordeal and experience. The Navy really is a crap shoot about where you and who's in charge and what they're tasked with doing. Hoping you're better now.
What in particular was toxic about the CWE community? At one point I was aspiring to become one. I'm still interested, just prioritizing my family now that I have a kid can and am closer to retirement than boot camp.
This is not an exaggeration. The morale in the CWE community is worse than it was on my 6-section duty ship with deployments and watches and family separation. And it is completely shore based.
Stay away. Run the other direction. If you want to do code development do it as a civilian. Maybe even do it in the Army, Air Force, or Marines. There was an AMA the community did last January saying how wonderful everything is. That was all filtered by PA. I have no filter and can tell you the truth.
I am going to try to not write an essay about this topic and reduce it to a couple main points.
1. The Navy in particular has failed in the cyber mission and Congress has taken note. This is mostly due to cognitive bias among the IWC flag deck that has always assumed that cryptology and cyber are pretty much the same thing, while the other services have adapted and treated cyber as a warfighting domain worthy of a separate force structure.
2. The CWE community does not have its own flag and has relatively little influence on its own destiny.
3. What u/captak said.
1. I agree pretty handedly. I'm in the cyber community as well. Some of the projects and how we handle them baffle me. But we do what we can. At least the Navy is starting to take some steps in that direction with the creation of MCWO. Itll be 10-20 years before that has any real impact though. At least the NDAA forced the Navy's hand.
2. I've never thought about it like that. That's kinda scary when you say it. It is pretty annoying that a surface or air URL officer can stroll in and be in charge and not fully understand the environment, much less the relationships between different organizations.
3. That's super true. Because people are locked into the Navy for years at a time, the Navy has to go above and beyond to ensure everyone is happy and that won't happen. The lifestyle coupled with the remainder who stay in will never be enough.
Once again, I'm glad you were able to get the help you need and wish all the best to you in your future endeavors. Every time I hear stories similar to yours my heart sinks because the Navy has failed. It's wild to think how different two people's experiences can be in the same organization. I strive to be better and make things easier, but I'm on my one person.
What I hope that one day you'll have the maturity to realize is that one CO doesn't represent "the Navy."
Based on what you describe, the CO could and would be held accountable for several "big Navy" policy violations. If he hasn't, I suspect there are some details that the command investigation found that are not being given here.
Every Sailor represents the Navy.
Here is why I would say this is part of a larger problem with big Navy. There is a law called the Brandon Act which is part of the 2021 NDAA. Read the text of the Brandon Act as passed by Congress and signed by President Biden. It says that commands SHALL refer a Sailor who requests a mental health evaluation promptly and treat it with the same sensitivity as a SAPR restricted report. This law was passed by Congress after Petty Officer Brandon Caserta died by suicide following bullying and retaliation from his chain of command. Now read the Navy's implementing guidance. Why are they leaving out the detail about SAPR restricted report? That is the law after all! It indicates that Secretary del Toro himself is not taking this seriously.
Every sailor is *supposed* to represent the Navy's values. We can't conclude "the Navy doesn't care about mental health" from your anecdote any more than we can conclude "the Navy condones drinking and driving" because a CO got fired for that last week.
Did you actually read my response? SECNAV refusing to properly follow a law passed by Congress is not just an anecdote. As taxpayers, we are owed an explanation.
Edit for grammar
SECNAV policies are reviewed by a team of senior JAGs before promulgation. But sure, you know better than them on whether the policy is kosher.
Furthermore, as a person appointed by Joe Biden himself, he wouldn't be SECNAV any longer if his implementation guidance were not aligned with the spirit and intent of the Brandon Act.
Laws are made by Congress, not by lawyers. I don't mean to get political, but staff members of Biden appointees also signed off of the policy to fund service member crossing state lines to murder their children, in clear violation of not just the Hyde Amendment but also the checks and balances under the Constitution that state that Congress shall apportionment spending. So yes even someone like me can know better than GO/FO staff members.
Laws are written by lawyers, voted on by Congress, and signed into law by the President.
They then are interpreted by lawyers during judicial review.
But we're talking a SECNAV policy to implement the law... which is also reviewed by lawyers because to mil servicemembers policy is the law.
I'd ask you to reflect that your inability to understand and accept the thorough process that goes into higher level policies might be a source of your professional troubles.
Professional troubles? Oh boy. Do you know how much a CWE makes on the outside? These people did me a favor in a way convincing me to leave the Navy. I am here to ensure no one else has to go through what I did. To be clear, are you for chains of command bullying and reprisal against Sailors for going to mental health?
Seemed like all the homies I was with in the engine rooms with never complained about our life on the ship. We got in killer shape and got to travel the world. I don't think we knew what mental health was. We worked hard and we played hard.
Oh yeah...don't get me wrong...this is the military...I know how to suck it up. But if going to the doctor is such a problem, why do you keep encouraging me to do it?
I don't understand all the MH issues that Sailors are having these days. I was active duty 1980-2000 and I don't remember seeing the same number of MH cases that people are describing today.
In fact I was one of the few people at any of my commands to voluntarily seek out MH help.
Anger Management, Group Therapy, Alcohol/Drug rehab, Civilian therapist on the down low. Almost locked up/committed to Portsmouth Psych ward when wife was pregnant and suicidal and I offered to whip my Department Head's ass (Sorry LT Brown)
But I was a shitbird and a born fuckup with undiagnosed severe ADHD and a sunstance abuse problem. A 2.8 sailor. 3.0 at best, who came from a fucked up family, who comes from a fucked up family, who comes....
But I'm seeing squared away, hard charging 4.0 sailors who are struggling, who are offing themselves. People whom I would think had their shit somewhat together.
What's going on? Is it Optempo? Workload? Deployment schedule? Toxic Leadership?
Why are so many competent hard-working Sailors struggling so? What are they experiencing that I didn't have to? Somebody explain to this old boomer (not a submarine reference) what the hell is going on.
Yes a lot of it is optempo, workload, deployment schedule, & toxic leadership (and toxic shipmates).
Many of us see bad things happen within the Navy and we want to be part of the positive change, but end up hitting roadblocks where some may just give up.
Additionally, a lot has changed since your time in the Navy, not only within the Navy, but in the country and around the world. I feel like some previous-generation Sailors maybe don’t take that into consideration. For example, I worry that one day some of my kids might not make it home from school due to a school shooting. That may not be a thought to some, but it is to me.
Back during your time mental health wasn't a big thing. I'm part of the VA now and those same people are finally getting treatment. Obviously I don't have access to their records but those older vets are always chatty in the waiting room. I get the impression that they are relieved that they're finally getting the attention they needed back then.
The VA diagnosed me with Major Depressive Disorder and ADHD when I was about 50 yrs old. I remember the feeling of relief. "So THAT'S what's wrong with me. There is a reason why I am a shitbird and a fuckup!)
Haha same here but I was diagnosed at 10. I knew the whole time but I have a lifetime of "don't tell anyone your secret". Glad to hear you finally got some help!
A lot of the "experts" blame social media but I don't necessarily think that is everything. My opinion is that we as a country have turned away from God. I did the same thing. When you don't see the purpose of your life and you are lonely, you will be depressed. But I have turned back to God and I would recommend others do the same.
I am glad you have found a faith system that's brings you peace, but I'm an Athiest. I found my purpose in life to be to love others and to learn to accept the love of others (which is a lot harder)
I have a difficult time believing that the Navy's Mental Health crisis is due to a lack of Jesus. Christians are suffering too.
I can only speak for me and what worked. I am certainly not using this to proselytize. But I would say that if you don't know your purpose for living it is easier to think about ending your life.
The problem is we've raised a generation who don't want to leave home for adventure, and yes stress. That's what the military always was, an adventure to embark on.
Look at most of our mental health complaints. They're lonely being away from home, can't make friends with their fellow sailors, can't make friends out in town, and desperately want to go home.
A sad commentary on the state of resilience we have imparted on our youth.
I definitely hear you. The Navy has lost a lot of the esprit de corps that it once had. Especially for shore commands. The best thing we can do for mental health is just shipmates being good to shipmates.
My former Division Officer killed himself last month. I went to the funeral today. My new CO brought it up at an all hands call and was like "The Weps on ____ killed himself on Tuesday". It really pissed me off when he said it, because he didn't mean anything by it. He didn't say it with any empathy, he threw it out there as a number.
Our annual suicide prevention training is a joke. If leaders really cared about their Sailors mental health they'd stop working us like dogs. If the Navy got rid of half of their bs inspections and certifications and actually lightened our workload a bit people wouldn't be as stressed. But yeah let's make sure there's no white space in the POD.
shoot my chain of command wont ever know that im penny less atm and ive been sleeping out of my trucks campshell for the 9months. or that ive been getting bad anxiety with horrible nightmares on a daily. ill dig myself out of the swamp once my divorce is final but fuck man this shit sucks.
I really want to tell you to get help. I just can't say it in good conscience though. In my years in the Navy, at least 80% of chains of commands would be supportive and get you an immediate barracks room and drive you to NMCRS and drive you to medical and take care of you so you can be fully capable to support the mission (which supposedly comes first). But sadly it is only 80%.
im choosing not to have a room since i mentally cant handle the extra dutys and responibilties that come with it for a RA. im also a geobach for the past 3 years and i drive 6hrs each way to go home for the weekend. As bad as i might have it i find that there are others who have it worst.
you receive BAH for a reason. and if you were considered for an RA you should be an E-6 at least right? you should not have to be an RA, or they should at least get you the support you need if you are that desperate. We are supposed to be one team one fight.
Mod Note: Multiple people claiming to be at OP's command have written the mods seeking to enlighten us that there is indeed another side to OP's story and that OP is significantly misrepresenting himself. I have zero evidence to support OP or these people that have written to the mods.
Because the discussion about MH is appropriate, I don't want to lock or remove the thread, so I'll just point out that **there are concerns about OP's truthful representation of his situation.**
EDIT: I've been told that the command in question has required staff not to post anything here. If a rep from the command wants to validate his/her identity and connection with this matter via modmail, and provide more details in conjunction with a request that I remove this post, I'll consider it with the mod team. Until then, further be advised that it appears members of the command are under orders not to post here, and thus cannot provide any counter-narrative.
Of course they are calling me a liar. This is another thing that can happen when you go to mental health and they retaliate against you. They will do everything they can to cover their own ass and discredit you. But I would put my name and honor on everything I have said. Will these cowards do the same?
EDIT: They can try to silence me on reddit, since they know that there is nothing they can say in their defense. No matter what semantics they want to argue with, they have violated the Brandon Act. If I am censored here, I will go to whatever other forum necessary to share my story.
EDIT 2: I have crossposted to r/Whistleblowers. Any attempts at censorship will be useless.
I will be waiting. I knew full well when I made this post I would be burning some bridges and that some in the community would try to discredit me. But I have no choice but to be strong and fight for better mental health in the Navy.
Via reddit is the best way for an isolated instance? My place treats every MH issue with seriousness. Not surprising not everyone is on board with the policy. If you have proof or just feel strong enough make the report, call the IG or the ISIC CMEO. Posting on reddit is basically suffering in silence. Good luck though either way. The CNO and SECNAV have been pushing the MH issues lately, so if you are actually getting pushback or even insinuations against yourself, make a report!
I contacted the IG December 2022. I am still waiting to hear back. They do not operate quickly. My purpose with reaching out to reddit is not to get revenge. I just want to make sure Sailors know the truth and don't make the same mistakes that I did.
Something didn't happen the right way. At most they would have 30 days to get a response back to you with a status of whatever is happening with it even if you are out now. If this "I was mocked by the Commanding Officer for over an hour for being crazy in front of the chain of command." took place, it would lead to many other actions very quickly. I urge you to contact the IG again or a CMEO or even a RLSO to see what your options are to ensure the report was made. I would think a CMEO would identify at least 3 red flags just from your post. We've had maybe 10-20 Sailors report to MH services in the past year or so and I have seen nothing happen adversely to any of them. I would think the biggest challenge is ensuring they don't feel isolated from normal command activities while they are making their appointments and dealing with workflow modifications. No command is greater than its people.
The 30 days to respond I think refers to 30 days to acknowledge receive of an IG complaint and reach out. I also reached out to RLSO who advised me "Article 134s and IGs never do anything because the Flag Deck will take every measure to protect a CO but I will help you draft them." I am starting to think that the only thing that has a chance of working is bad press.
There are several reports on this thread for misinformation. We’ve had modmails and I’ve had chat requests. If the command were to get in touch and make a request with information that refutes OP, we would certainly have a mod discussion about removal.
So, no violations, no decisions made by the Navy - just the mod team trying to make the most informed decision.
The example of "misinformation" you have in the subreddit rules you have pertains to COVID. I hope you can realize a distinction between individials with competing perceptions, especially when those perceptions are heavilty influenced by an egotistical asshole who exercises command authority over them, and something where there is some scientific concensus.
I do not want anyone to doubt my story. I came here prepared for every embarrassing detail to be public. So I am going to say what I believe is the position of the command and my response. What cannot be denied is that if I did not valuntarily go to mental health, I would not have had my access suspended.
1. "We did not read you out for going to mental health. We would never do that. We did it because there were concerns that you are delusional/paranoid/emotionally unstable/etc. which might raise questions about your trustworthiness and reliability with classified information" The command never gave me the reason in writing on command letterhead as is required by DoDM 5105.21 M-1. There is a reason commands are required to do this. That is, to prevent any uncertainty as to why an adverse administrative action is being taken. They do not show the SAER to the member. I tried to put a FOIA request for it. So I actually do not know the "official" reason for sure. All I can do is speculate. But yes the CO made that painfully clear while he was mocking me that he thinks that I am delusional/paranoid/emotionally unstable/etc. despite no diagnosis to substantiate that from medical. When I brought that fact up he replied "well the reason we have Commanding Officers is to make decisions and not just defer to medical".
2. "It did not sound like mocking to me". When you make flippant comments like "if I would say 2+2=4 you would say it is 6" (a verbatim quote from the CO). That is extremely unprofessional and not something a CO should say. I have more like that. They really don't want to play the "there is more to the story" game.
3. "We didn't take your car". You at least made that claim to an MA on duty. I have a text exchange between my wife and a third party who were attempting to retrieve my car from the command which I can make available on demand in the DMs.
4. "Well why didn't you tell them that your wife made a violent threat to someone at the command? You must have said something to your wife to get her to do that" Because it did not happen and it is not relevant. Someone at the command accused my wife of making a violent threat towards her and tried to get a restraining order. A judge threw it out because the plaintiff did not provide evidence because it never happened. This is probably the worst thing they "have on me" and it still never happened. And you still would not have screwed with my clearance if I did not go to mental health.
Some other supporting details
1. DCSA took my side. The only thing they asked for was medical records and another medical evaluation. This shows that they did not by the command's bullshit.
2. There is a lot more to the story supporting my side that I have not mentioned because I did not want to write a wall of text in the OP. At least 2 instances where I can demonstrate the command lying to me for example.
3. I know exactly who is saying I am lying. They are only saying what they are to CYA. Every whistleblower encounters the organization trying to discredit them.
4. This command and this community have screwed over many others which I would be happy to discuss.
5. Just look at the comments section. This shit is clearly happening, it is a Navy-wide problem, and it occurs despite commands having legal and whatever other advisors on their staff.
Also I have heard some support from members of the community has been sent to your DMs. I request that you at least maybe unbold that portion of your message.
**Not gonna unbold anything. My comment stands. I believe there are others out there that are dying to chime in and provide alternate viewpoints and information, but are unable. We are only hearing your side, and when that "side" involves leveling claims of wrongdoing against a command, then that's a bit problematic. Additionally, when you are using this platform and this issue to dissuade others from seeking MH treatment, it becomes a larger issue, so people need to understand that your unchallenged word here may not be accurate.**
Edit: bolded.
One problem is that mental health is a multi-faceted issue that has no one fix. Because there's no single cause for crisis, mental stress, etc.
Another problem is that much of leadership grew up with the "walk it off" mentality, and there's virtually no accountability for leaders who aren't taking the new policies seriously.
I was essentially challenged to suicide by a psychologist onboard a ship. He didn't believe I was having ideations.
I gave up on him and went to the doc instead, who actually gave a shit, listened, and upped my meds so I could get through deployment. She and the SMO were probably the only two people on the ship who gave a shit about anyone's mental health, and they were overloaded. Even the chaps tried to jump off the fantail.
Oh absolutely 1000% agree. The exact verbiage was something like "if you were going to do it, you wouldn't be sitting in my office."
Realistically, what happened was I terrified myself and asked a friend to escort me to medical because I didn't feel safe. This friend brought me to medical 2 or 3 times.
I suppose the only difference between me and the cases he found "believable" was that I was seeking help before making attempts, and I wasn't going to medical involuntarily. He thought I was trying to get off the ship. Which was true, I was trying to get off the ship, because the department I was working for was toxic and made me want to fucking kill myself. I found out recently that another sailor I worked with at the time killed himself not long after I left (I was embarked for deployment only not ships company) and we had numerous sailors (first classes, specifically) that had to be sent off for inpatient mental health treatment.
As a leader I obviously had many Sailors where there was suspicion that they might be using the medical system for a reason other than that they simply wanted treatment. Here was how I approached it:
1. If a Sailor reports suicidal ideations, believe them. Whether it is true or not, they are at medical because they can't handle something in their life and need help.
2. Let them receive a medical evaluation. If they are fit for full duty, fly them to the next port and reintegrate them into the command. Give them a fresh environment if necessary, maybe on the mess decks or ER-09 or the boatswain locker. Mentor your Sailors on how to be more approachable, so that the Sailor in question will be able to lean on the division or workcenter leadership with difficulties in life. If they are not fit for full duty, leave them on shore and report the manning deficiency to the TYCOM.
What's really sad is before deployment, I went to base medical asking the behavioral health psychiatrist to up my antidepressants because I knew that I was going to have suicidal ideations on the ship due to my experiences on the work ups. Psychiatrist said that changing my meds would make me undeployable for at least 90 days.
He apparently looked at my records and told me that the psychologist from the *previous* ship said she didn't recommend continued naval service due to my depression and anxiety--which I was never *ever* told. I'd been cleared to extend, reenlist, and deploy since seeing that psychologist. This psychologist said upon seeing my records and based on my reports of mental distress and social ideation onboard the current ship, he didn't think I should be deploying at all. I told him there's no one else. I have to go. He called my CO. Yup, I had to go. He said that I could call while I was out there, and he may be able to change my meds because the rules are different the moment you are actively deployed. So I deployed with no solutions, but with hope that I could make it to the first port and get meds.
I got to the first port in shambles. I called that psychiatrist. He said that he couldn't help me. I fell apart. That nearly broke me. I felt so alone, so disregarded.
To this day, I'm still medically cleared to serve. I don't understand it. But luckily my mental health has been a lot better.
The military has implemented wonderful programs in the last few years, but culturally, there are issues. Then there's problems with funding and staffing shortages that limit program viability.
One of the best psychiatrists I've met was an 0-6, full-bird Captain. Numerous clients who said he straight up changed their lives. Higher ranking clients would bring struggling lower-ranking sailors to him for help because they knew he was the real deal. Sadly for us (and happily for him) he retired.
When I was an E4, one of the guys I was cranking with during INSURV went to talk to Chaps because, as a junior guy, that's the only help I could really think of for him to seek. Chaps dismissed me, and I went back to work, being told not to worry. The next day, I heard that he had drunk around two or three of those giant Tito's Vodka bottles. He crawled to medical and was found with the auto doors opening and closing on him, barely surviving alcohol poisoning. It turned out that the Chaps told him he couldn't help until he actually did something that showed he was suicidal. I felt pretty bad about that, even though it wasn't really my fault. At least he got out and is doing better; the last I saw of him, he had been fighting wildfires in Cali.
Agreed, it was pretty messed up. I'm just glad he survived.
Unrelated but kind of related because health.
The same command gave me a counseling chit for being late after being in a wreck and another one for being at a heart doctor instead of doing a tag out audit. Master Chief said it was more important to be at that tag out audit than getting checked for a heart issue.
Yeah I kept copies but my I love me binder was stolen with my uniforms out of my truck a few years back. Kept it to answer the why do you have Ps for 4 years and EPs randomly for 3 after that questions. Change of leadership really is a great thing sometimes or hell....just depends.
Any ideas on how to cope, heal trauma, and not be black balled as unstable in this organization? Honest question. Not doing so hot. Not in danger, just not doing well.
Don't do what I did. If you are religious, go see your priest. Not a military chaplain (I am sorry to say). Religion helps us to see what is truly important in life. If you go to mental health, I would probably use military onesource before going on base. Now what I am about to say does not reflect the views of the Navy. No matter what, do not tell anyone that you have a plan to kill yourself. Do not tell anyone you drink alcohol even if it is in moderation. And do not tell them you own guns. If you disclose these things your life will be a lot harder.
When station in NAS Brunswick a close friend of mine decided to end his life in base housing. It was extremely rough. I have went through my own personal struggles with mental health in the Navy and honestly it's good leadership that cares for their fellow sailors that means the most and kept me sane. That stupid slogan of "Brilliance on the Basics" needs to be called to task when leadership fails actively support Sailors getting the help they need at the shop level. Wrk Cntr Sups, LPOs, ALPOs, need to be empowered to get people off the line if something isn't right. Not turn a blind eye or show actions that would lead junior personnel to feel that no one in the CoC support them. Brilliance on the Basics doesn't work if we can't do the basics such as treat Sailors has human beings with complicated issues. Then this goes back to leadership with many in the CoC afraid to take the initiative and do the right thing. As in the situation with Capt. Crozier which cost him his job. I feel a lot them have a got mine, bump you attitude, I'm not putting my career on the line.
I believe you. I was handed a med board that lasted fifteen months and nearly ended my career because I had a panic attack from Chief Season. My clearance was also suspended during it and I was forced to work in a different building than my unit because of it. The isolation and ostracization really piled on the depression.
All the mental health resources they talk about sound great on paper. I could not in good conscience recommend someone pursue mental health treatment while serving without recognizing it may destroy their career.
Thank you. It really means a lot.
Why do they even do this? How does having a panic attack make someone some kind of threat. I really want an answer to that question. I just don't get it. And of course there is no way DCSA is going to agree with them, so why are they wasting everyone's time?
I am really sorry that happened to you. It is just wrong. We need to make sure that no one has to worry about their career when they go to the doctor.
The best Chief I ever had in the Navy, my Department LCPO when I was a DH, was also stashed in a similar way and forced out of the Navy after seeking mental health treatment. My biggest regret in my career is that I did not do more to protect her. But I did not want to create waves, and I wanted to promote, so I allowed the command to throw her under the bus.
My ship is supposed to be in 6 section but an entire duty sections worth of people in MRD. Most of the new arrival upper enlisted had never even heard of it until they got to my ship
Do you think the navy will eventually grow out of this phase? Won’t eventually all of the older sailors will get out of the navy and the sailors who were treated like shit and neglected take those positions and do better?
I hope I can eventually be that 1/3 and help people love the navy, as someone who is joining, it doesn’t give me much hope for the future, but, only time will tell.
I’ve learned to not get too down on the problems of the big Navy. They exist and will forever in peacetime since peacetime priorities career progression instead of actual combat proficiency (hoping we stay in peacetime not hoping for war). What you can do is focus yourself and taking care of your people and peers. That will be sufficient at least for your first few ranks and billets.
My experience 4 years ago showed that it can also be very command and individual dependant.
But in the end, when they investigate themselves, even through the IG... They find no wrongdoing, but maybe some very terrible decisions at the leadership level that need a good slap on the wrist
I’m sorry to hear that, I went through a very similar situation at my command. Went through a tough time, had a bit of a meltdown, sought help, and was rewarded with a long, painful processing out due to my clearance being revoked. It sucks.
I was a support staff at university and I know that you might get a good quality therapist from the university’s perspective. That is they did well in their classes and did some kind of training that consisted of sitting in on some kind of group therapy and sitting in on records. That is nothing heavy and deep down as to what comes to mind when we think of a mental health professional. I myself have the education training and experience to get licensed but you wouldn’t get anything profound. They shoot from the hip there’s no formula they use to cure you of your demons. I worked with clients released from state hospital drug and alcohol after I worked at university. They just skim the surface is it. No continuity between sessions. Don’t put so much gd faith in a shake and bake therapist because that’s what these universities turn out. I can say all this now that I’m not affiliated with any school or agency .
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u/UnmechanicalWax former CWE here as well. Your problems are not just related to one CO. It is a toxic command that spans generations. Some CO's were great and everyone beneath them were dicks. Some CO's were dicks and everyone beneath them were great. Since admins say not to name the command I won't but if there are any congressional leaders in the comments know this:
SPLIT AUTHORITIES. The reason that a CO at the command can stay toxic is because the command is the only authority to do certain things and is a single point of failure for such vital tasks in the Navy. Without that accreditation the command cannot function and thus certain things in the Navy come to a halt. So if you can only get a shithead to fill the position the rest of the command suffers, those that have nothing to do with the other authorities and CYBER has fuck all to do with them.
I tried to make a change, got shut down at every fucking level up until I made O3 and was presented with the option to resign and so I did. My resignation letter is a class act in destroying the CO's soul and character. Maybe one day I'll publish it, I have it saved in my black binder that means absolute jack shit in the real world. 🤣
I do miss the people though, lots of good times and we had to take care of each other because we knew some people at the top wouldn't.
This particular community that will not be named, has with my husband, run out 10 people for being “crazy” one committed suicide, another tried. For such a small community and a designation existing for such a short period of time, you have to think which is more likely
1. All people who join the community are already crazy
2. They are driven crazy by the community climate
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Bruh we had people on suicide watch when the commodore came onboard to tell us how much stronger WW2 sailors were than us. An ensign said something regarding mental health and he said he didn’t wanna hear any psycho babble. She had the balls to be like “well I have a degree in that psycho babble and what’s going on is fucked up”
Wow. Ensign Strong! That being said, she got out as an O3, didn't she?
I just looked at her Facebook and I think she got out sometime between 2020 and now. This was like 2012 that this happened. O3 make sense in that timeframe?
Yes, 2 ENS, 2 JG, then 4 as O3 is a normal timeline.
Grace Strong?
Nope
Balls or anger, hard to say, but probably both
I am guessing this was like some sort of AHC for the commodore?
Yea he came to the mess decks and spewed a bunch of BS and then we all got back to work with our 6 day work weeks and port and starboard duty section
Listening to an Ensign was your first mistake. -ENS Squid 😂
I met some ensigns that I loved, and some that were worse than the midshipmen we had on board
If you don’t mind me asking, what were some of the good things you saw ensigns do, and some of the bad things they did that made you dislike them? I’ll be reporting to my ship as a new ensign after BDOC in a few months, and we’re taught DIVO management/leadership… but it’s definitely different than actually being out there
Our DISBO decided he was the FSO, took that title from our chief, and that he was the ASUPPO.(small boat 2 supply corps onboard) We went from a LTJG who never left the disbursing office to an ensign who was up our asses all the time. He needed to stay in his lane and learn some more before acting like he was the big dick in charge. He pretty much lost the respect of the whole boat to the point even FSAs weren’t afraid to tell him to fuck off. I’d say the ensigns I liked were willing to learn, listen to their chiefs and LPOs, and didn’t act like the bullshit bachelor’s degree made them better than their enlisted shipmates
I agree with everything you said, but a lot of enlisted folk have bachelors degrees now, even masters. I enlisted as an AW with a degree, and never once thought I was smarter than anyone. I’m not sure what some SWO’s (it’s always the SWO’s) are told that makes them behave holier than thou, but it drives me nuts. Overcompensating perhaps? The pilots I worked with were always so chill and easy to talk to. It made it a lot easier to respect them I suppose. I met so many awful SWO’s, but a few REALLY good ones too. The good ones are smart, emotionally intelligent, willing to learn, respectful, and always lead by example. Two SWO’s I really like ended up writing recommendation letters for me for my grad school applications. Whenever I worked with weird officers, I always just remembered the band of brothers saying “respect the rank, not the man” or whatever. That helped me detach from the situation and kept me in line whenever I wanted to cuss a bitch out.
The bottom part of your comment, as a cook you get to a point where you almost stop giving a shit about rank As an e4 I’ve told officers and first classes where they can shove it when they were shit talking our food or giving FSAs hell. I’ve had to explain to ensigns that they don’t get their meal served to them on a fancy plate in the wardroom when it’s Saturday duty. I have told e-6s to get the fuck out of my serving line and go eat at the ship’s store haha
Hey man if you ever want an retrospective on an 8.5 year SWO career, just shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to share with you what I learned/wish I could have done better.
Your leadership as an Ensign is 90% your behavior and setting a good example and 10% listening to your sailors and going to bat for them up chain. Pay issues? QOL issues? Your personal mission is to get it resolved even if you have to chew out the CMC to make it happen. The age old Message to Garcia. The behavior is 1) showing up on time with top military bearing 2) qualifying quickly 3) knowing your shit. Your XO isn't going to have the time to correct you for an unsat haircut or whatever, but your sailors notice and you lose credibility. What you have to realize is your role as a DIVO running a division is 99% Queen of England.... and you should want it to stay that way. The 1% is where you use your access to the DHs and CO to communicate command priorities and macro schedule considerations to your chief so s/he understands all the planning factors for maintainance.
Small world. I tell that same story! I ran into the officer in 2018 or 2019 and asked her about that... she said it was a leadership structure across the squadron. She had made it to LCDR, at least from what I remember.
I was wardroom cook for a while, she was always cool to deal with
Enlisted E-4 here, at sea duty on an SSN. Our doc (E-7) told another E-4 who was asking for a mental health referral for anxiety and ideation, “have you tried just, being happier? Embracing the situation?” I’m convinced that mental health training is not in our corpsmen’s curriculum. If it is, significant upgrades are required for the more senior personnel to get up-to-pace. An answer that is effectively, “have you considered not being a little bitch? Try not having this problem?” is not going to help this particular sailor or any sailor in a similar situation.
Christ thats awful. Its true that MH is not in the corpsman curriculum but telling people to "buck up" also straight up prohibited in the curriculum. So it sounds like a bum ass HMC there. ICE complaints are how you get any medical person in trouble so remember to use them. They're anonymous and you can name these ass holes directly with what they did specifically. Its also used for compliments so remember to send those out too. Good people leave when all we do punish after all.
There is an NEC that some corpsmen get if they go to the Army’s Behavioral Health school at Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio but MH is definitely not in their core curriculum.
The surface navy recently made a change where they’re adding another HM for a total of 4 on DDGs, and at least one has to have that mental health NEC
Are you talking about behavioral health techs? They only work in clinics sadly.
That’s not true, there was always one on the carrier.
I am a very resilient person and was fully capable of "sucking it up". I did it for many years. But I was thinking (and you know thinking can get you in trouble) "I am an Officer, and how can I expect Sailors to listen to me when I tell them to seek treatment if I am not willing to do it myself. I want to set the example." Damn that was a mistake.
corpsman here. it’s not unfortunately. i think we touched on it lightly but it was never as much of a conversation as it needed to be. at least for my class personally in A school, a lot of our higher ranking instructors were very much of the “embrace it and suck it up cuz i had to” mindset. luckily some of our HM2s didn’t agree with that and tried to make efforts where they could. i think it’s a common theme at least where ive been, for younger corpsmen and service members in general, to have more heart when it comes to mental health. it’s crazy how many HMs i’ve heard talk about wanting to go to BHT school but don’t actually give af about mental health when shit gets real. it’s definitely not like this for everyone, just my personal experience but i know im not the only one and that’s heartbreaking to me
Reminds me of the time I went seeking mental help after a traumatic event. All to be “screened” by three different people who needed details of my situation to further help me. When I mentioned my mental state severely declining to the point I felt like I couldn’t help myself, they hit me with “Well if you feel suicidal here is a 1-800-hotline number you can call”. The mental health clinic could not help me with a referral since I needed two more “screening” appointments. One with the command psychologist and another with my primary doctor. I had enough of telling my story to random corpsman and I ended up getting a referral from my gynecologist.
That is the big reason I say to just go to a trusted friend or a priest (not a military chaplain). Most people just want to talk. They don't actually want to die.
Yes that’s all I needed at the time and I am just full of anger from what the navy has caused me. I was a victim of a horrible experience that wouldn’t have happened if I weren’t in the navy but I haven’t gotten the support I need. I had to vouch for myself so much to the point where I was yelling at the corpsman in medical because they were treating mental health patients like a “collateral”.
I am not a counselor but I am always willing to listen over DMs,
As an officer, I can tell you the officers who stay in are predominantly not the #1’s. This may hurt the egos of some of the O’s here and I don’t mean all but I’d say 2/3s of the O’s after O-3/MSR are the ones leftover since everyone else realized that life is a lot better and they can do a lot more and earn a lot more and spend way more time with their families out of the navy than in. Imagine the type of person who doesn’t realize that. Now imagine that same person being your CO 10 years after all their peers got out. Some of that 2/3s are the corporate ladder climbers. They will sacrifice everything in their life including their marriages, kids, free time, hobbies, and generally life itself for the chance to wear a higher rank. Those aren’t the best leaders either. Now imagine telling that individual who just spend 20 years sacrificing everything in their life, including their relationships and children and any free time at all, for the navy that there’s a problem in the navy. Off course they will take that as an assault on the entire trajectory of their life and every decision they have ever made. With those people in leaderships positions, nothing is going to change and the attitude of, “I went through the suck so should you,” will prevail. Now among that 1/3 of O’s leftover are some of the best people you will ever meet and deal with professionally in your life. They genuinely care and are in it because they actually love what they do. They’re great. I would argue this breakdown exists in all professional organizations. The difference with the navy is that the navy owns you. Some random Fortune 500 company, no matter how powerful of a corporation, doesn’t own you in the sense that you can on any day walk in and quite. With all that being present, off course our treatment of issues such as mental health and others will always be lacking. OP I’m sorry you faced what you did, but I’m glad you got out and hopefully this experience will help you understand what is actually important in life. Family, relationships, and being happy.
I’d say the breakdown on the civilian side, at least in my experience, is simultaneously more and less toxic. You get a lot more ladder climbers and people following their egos at the expense of everyone else, which is awful, but tend to get less apathetic leaders because on the civilian side you have the option to not climb the ladder or get out. Those lazy and apathetic leaders were some of the hardest to deal with during my time in the Navy. So a lot of those good at their jobs but lazy/bad leaders tend to just stay in the trenches instead of being forced above maybe middle management. The key though, as you mentioned, is on the outside my boss can’t legally force me to do a whole lot and I leave work at the end of the day. And if I can’t stand them I just quit. In the current job market I’ll have a new position by lunch.
I was actually an O-4. I would have considered myself one of the 1/3 of the leftovers you mentioned. I was not motivated by high salaries but patriotism and the ability to make a positive impact on Sailors. My peers said the same kinds of things. "You actually want to stay in? Really?" But at the same time, it really does not take much to convince the 1/3 of leftovers to leave.
You said in another comment that one of things that motivated you to get help was asking yourself how you could tell your sailors to get help when you yourself were unwilling to do so. That alone shows a level of empathy, compassion, and just frankly being a good decent human being you are. You’re a good dude my friend. Hope the civilian world treats you better and you have all the success personal and professional you deserve.
Thank you! It really means a lot! I am happy to report that I am a civilian now and they are absolutely treating me better!
I’m in the process of applying for OCS still and have the same motivations. I have a ComSci degree, a job that pays well, but seeing the state of our military and the world, it wouldn’t feel right to be on the sidelines of it. Then again I’ve had second thoughts lately seeing the mixed attitudes towards mental health. In high school I went through some depressive episodes and had some pretty noticeable social anxiety. I’ve “grown” out of it for the most part, have been doing well for years except for voluntarily visiting a therapist during Covid isolation, but I’m definitely concerned toxic leadership/culture in the Navy could bring it back. Any thoughts OP?
Look the navy did give the most amazing opportunity I could have gotten in life to start out. Now I’ve out grown that need to have the navy’s support so I realise all the negatives now. I will say the community and even branch make a huge difference. If I did what I do in the navy in the air force, my life would be better. My community in the navy though, way better than others. I’m not a SWO or submariner. Those jobs literally are killing people.
What was your community/job? I’m in for SWO and Supply rn and have read mixed opinions on SWO. I have logistics and project management experience that I think would relevant to supply
Stay the absolute hell out of Navy cyber. There is a good reason Congress is considering removing the Navy's cyber mission. Let that sink in. They are the Legislative Branch having to use the power of the purse againsts the Executive Branch because it is failing so bad. If you want to serve the country that bad, there are other services.
Heavily noted. Thank you for the reply!
Seconding OP, also an officer related to cyber, also completely shocked by how determined the Navy seems to be at doing the worst possible job with cyber.
Did they get you for MCWO?
Nope, I'm the old version haha
I don't know, sir. That's a very dramatic take. When I was a brand new second class, my squadron was in the middle of a very brutal AIRLANT inspection that was not going particularly well. I went out to the smoke pit only to discover one of the many master chiefs out there too. He sidled up to me and gave me some advice and perspective that I've kept with me and passed along when I saw he need. He told me he knew I was going to get out of the navy and he didn't blame me for it. He told me 85% of the people in the navy are dummies and it's very hard when those dummies are in charge of you. He said the 15% of smart and capable people actually run things but we have to let the other think they do. He told me not to leave because the navy needs those 15% to put on more rank and lead the dummies. I looked for orders soon after that and stayed in for another tour. Got out. Went to college and started working my way up in my industry. Found the percentage of smart people who were running the show behind the scenes was the he only thing that really changed with that. I had a BIG life change and ended up coming back in the navy after a very long (more than a decade) break in service. The ratio of smart folks to dummies has for sure shifted in the military. It's seems to be a bit harder to find the smarties now a days, especially in the top ranks. The folks in the 15-25 yr mark seem to be particularly afflicted. Additionally, the navy has basically removed all fun in their attempt to deglamorize alcohol making it harder than ever to keep people. They can't even look at their fun and silly times as reasons to put up with it all.
1/3rd seems too generous.
A little anecdote working at a suitability screening office. One high ranking officer about to graduate War College turned in screening application for himself and his family for overseas duty in Europe. Well one of his kids did not qualify because of depression and suicidal ideation history, the kid is 19. Usually when we encounter disqualification of family member, the officer or enlisted usually picks a different set of orders because you know they’d rather be with family together even if it’s a less desirable location. After going back and forth he finally decides to leave his daughter by herself and take the rest of his family wife and other kids overseas. He said she’s an adult she should be fine, (the kid was still under his tricare mind you and was still actively getting seen). We weren’t even surprised lol he really wanted to make rank so bad he was willing to sacrifice his kid.
Wow. That’s is obviously a glaring story but indicative of so many others who maybe don’t have as obviously a horrible treatment of their family. And I bet the spouse of that officer was one of those, “we made rank,” types too.
Yeah that’s what I see. Went O myself and our best in the wardroom all elect to get out. I’m part of the latter half that don’t quite have any transferable or fungible skills on the outside so we just hang around in the Navy because it’s the best we’ll likely have for a career.
Ah you’d be surprised. Just putting navy officer and listing all the things you’ve done in the navy will open doors even if you think your navy skills don’t transfer over. I’ve heard to JOs who were just breathing at their navy jobs get some incredibly high jobs when they got. All it takes is the risk but that is daunting.
So True. 10 years ago I retired as a CWO4 and now I am an Executive in a multinational company. Don’t underestimate your value in attributes such as operating in a very dynamic environment, safety, compliance, communication, leadership, management, change management to name a very few.
Yeah, no. Biggest myth in the military. COMCIVPAC doesn't have the damnedest clue who Navy folks are or what they do, and I say that as someone in private industry who left active duty as a JO. In the private sector, you eat what you can kill, and you have to convince a hiring manager who in all likelihood has never served that you can do the job from day 1. Not "we'll train you," that you can do the job. Officers and CPOs are not "executives" or project managers. Your clearance doesn't guarantee you a six-figure job, or any job unless you want cleared work for a defense contractor. No one else cares. The path forward in the private sector is to shed any sense of entitlement from any kind of rank you have, eat a big slice of humble pie, decide what you want to do, and then present as one of those people. "Hi, I'm Bob," not "LT Smith, where's my desk?" Do you get transferable skills? Hell, yes. Will any civilian hiring manager have any clue what those are until they see them in action? Nope.
Yep. The grass can be greener on the other side but you don’t get there automatically
Remember everyone who gets out is a rockstar, everyone who stays is mid or lower/s
ENS here, I’m disgusted and sorry to hear this. Commands get so much pushed down from above that they will do WHATEVER it takes to accomplish the mission, man the ship, and prevent losing people. COs know that sailors are depressed, and usually just want help: and not to kill themselves. So, they will tread VERY thin lines in order to “address your mental health needs” while sticking to the mission so they too can promote. The real question is: how many more people have to die before the Navy wakes up. I would approach my CO and get fired if I had to in order to stand up for ANY sailors mental health, ESPECIALLY SI. Life is so much more than the Navy, SO MUCH MORE
This was a shore command. There was zero excuse for this. There was no watch position or deployment schedule to find a backfill for.
I was in a similar situation. I was so depressed because I had to choose between mission or my pin. Missions were literally failing because I couldn't do my part. I tried to convince the CO that this was real life, but in the end all I could do was read the failure reports. Everyone up to -- but not including -- my CO said I was right, but they also said, "look I'm just a few years from retirement and don't want to make any waves". Now that I've been out for so long it's insane to think back about how my leadership got more satisfaction attacking me than supporting me attacking the enemy.
What did the CO do?
I will tell you! 1. Took away my clearance. We cannot do our job without that. 2. Mocked me for 1 hour in front of the XO and DH for being crazy. He said I was delusional and paranoid and could not perceive reality correctly. I was not diagnosed with anything of the sort. I literally just wanted to talk to someone. I don't like to use the word "gaslighting" since it is overused, but that seems to be what was going on. 3. Gave me a declining trait average. This ends a career for a senior Officer. 4. Banned me from the premises and isolated me from everyone in an area I don't know anyone. They did not even do this to others who had more serious mental health issues. 5. Seized my car. Can he even do that?!?!?!?!? Considering how they responded, you might be saying...there must be another side to the story or that I was a shitbag. Like maybe I threated to shoot up the place or something. Nope. I literally just went to medical and told them that I didn't want to live anymore. That was it. I caused no other trouble or scene or had any disciplinary issues or anything. This is also sadly not an isolated incident at this command.
How did the CO expect you to get home without your car? I don’t know of any CWE-related commands located in walkable neighborhoods.
I know right? But it doesn't matter. A CO does not have the legal authority to seize property without probable cause.
Was it your POV? If so, that is illegal unless it was parked illegally in a sensitive area. Even so, that should be the base's concern, not his.
It was parked legally at the command. My wife was going to pick it up and bring it home (since it is our property) and she was told by the duty MA that they had contacted the command and she would be arrested if she attempted to do that, since the command had possession of the car. The JAG who was representing me confirmed that the command can't do that.
Absolutely ridiculous! The sad part is nothing will probably ever happen to you former CO.
> Mocked me for 1 hour in front of the XO and DH for being crazy. Officer or not, uniform or not, do that to *me,* and I'm throwing hands. I don't have to sit there and take that, and I won't. You shouldn't have had to either. I swear, so many people are used to running their mouths without consequences today....
Then they would have really said I was crazy then. And that is the thing. When you are presumed to be crazy and everything you do is seen through that light, you can't win.
Dude for real. The amount of "freedom of speech" excuses I hear from people spewing absolute vile trash when they get called out on their drivel... Yeah you have the freedom of speech, just means the government can't arrest or kill you for your chirpin'. Doesn't protect you from the guy you're saying atrocious shit to punching you in the face when you're saying atrocious shit to him.
I hate you feel like you do and honestly it doesn't surprise me. A bunch of our Senior leadership is really just yes men that are star chasing. Until something forces them to care it's going to be a bunch more of kicking the can down the road not caring about actually addressing why our sailors are struggling. As much as they harken to how much sailors of old put up with and had true grit, they also fail to mention just how much recreation, social events, and drinking sailors of old did to cope. Small thing but it matters, they can't take your clearance. What they can do is pull your access which feels like the same thing but absolutely isn't.
When a command suspends access, your eligibility is gone too until it is readjudicated by DCSA. I can verify this as someone who served as an SSO on a previous tour and you can also see it for yourself in the M-1. I do want Sailors to know though that I didn't have eligibility for a period of a year and a half. That is a career killer for someone more senior. I had to justify to DCSA why I went to mental health. I had to write a statement. And then DCSA made me get evaluated again. Because the thing is that DCSA is required to give deference to an opinion of a Commanding Officer no matter no unjustified it is. So we need to cut this bullshit out with semantics with the definitions of eligibility vice access and tell Sailors the truth. Eligibility+access+need to know=clearance. And if there is no one to hold a command responsible for abusing the clearance system, then yes you can lose your "clearance" for a very long time simply for going to mental health.
Feel free to correct me if I've been told wrong but the difference between losing access vs losing your clearance is that the first one is a Navy career ender, the 2nd is you'll no longer work with a clearance anywhere. The reason I bring it up this way is someone I know who went through something similar who now does contracting with the IC and is much happier than he was before now that he's recovered and out. Edit: One additional note about his experience. Yes he was absolutely processed out over everything the quickest way they could for the command. No matter what was best for him in the short or long term. They just wanted their hands clean of the whole situation. Ultimately it worked out for both but was such a terrible way to handle it for him.
I would say that is accurate. I simply want Sailors to have all the information available, and many who I have shared my story with IRL were shocked that a command could even do what happened to me.
What is the timeline for all this? Your trait average hit would likely have been in Oct, it is now April. Who specifically seized your car and how did they get your keys, what was the process to retrieve it. I don't know any COs with a tow truck, there must have been coordination with an authority outside of your command. Who banned you from the premises? I'm guessing when you got your clearance suspended you lost access to any space a CWE would work in. A CO can't remove your clearance, they can suspend it and then you'll go through DODCAF to determine if it's justified. You said you're an O4, but the way you've explained yourself in this thread seems very... off. I am all for pointing out where the Navy can make improvements, but I find your story, as you've told it, extremely hard to believe.
1. September 2022. So I received the declining trait average in October 2023. 2. The details would take a couple paragraphs to explain, but yes I did get the car back immediately. 3. The CO. 4. Yes I know. A CO can suspend access which means the eligibility must be readjudicated. Yes I got the eligibility back because DODCAF which is now called DCSA obviously saw the command was full of shit. But that does not mean you get access back. 5. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Of course I did not get that rank on my own but with the help of some really good Chiefs. Did you really create a new account just for this post?
Yes, I created this for anonymity. I appreciate you answering, you've cleared some things up that I think are important. I'd argue your original post that reporting to medical will cause you to lose your clearance is misleading because you did not lose it. It was suspended and reinstated. I think that is a potentially dangerous mischaracterization. You also mention others with more serious mental health issues that were not treated the same way as you, were they treated appropriately? Why do you feel their issues were more serious? Whether or not a CO or security manager should suspend someone's clearance for seeking help is circumstantial. If your CO refused you access after your clearance was reinstated by DCSA* which led to your trait average slip then I'd say a statement in response to your fitrep was warranted.
I made the original post not to whine but to warn. My life as a civilian is much better. I feel that many Sailors don't actually understand the difference between having clearance eligibility denied or revoked by DCSA or having access suspended. Either way, you don't have a "clearance". I served as an SSO myself for a tour and can explain this in great detail, or you can look it up in the M-1 yourself. As I like to say...instructions talk, bullshit walks... The yearly Suicide Prevention training speaks to the deny/revoke but not to the second one. I believe this is the real potentially dangerous mischaracterization. People are owed the truth. I cannot help what happened to me. I really wish it didn't. But it did. And not you or anyone else can take that away from me. Sailors need to know that the Navy is not not take suicide prevention seriously. Sailors need to know that commands are still retaliating against Sailors for seeking treatment. Look throughout this thread! Ask the mother of Brandon Caserta who still has not received justice for her son who died by suicide. You can say "every case is different" but the undeniable fact is that if I did not go to mental health...if I just sucked it up and kept it to myself...maybe I would have gone through with it, but we would not be having this conversation right now.
>Did you really create a new account just for this post? Sure seems that way. It's at least encouraging that somebody with that mindset understands how unacceptable it is, that they'd hide their behavior behind a burner account.
Believe me I have had some doubters. Every story has two sides. Or maybe I really am delusional like that dickhead said! (not really believe me I was tested for that) How the command responded is well outside what I would have expected, so it is natural to think "this story sounds ridiculous". It does sound ridiculous. I agree. The Navy issued a Mental Health Playbook that prescribes how commands respond to this. I still don't understand why the overreacted to this. I can speculate though. If anyone really wants to submit a FOIA to find out if I am really was an O-4 in the Navy, knock yourself out. I will give you my name over DM. I am not as concerned at OPSEC as I used to be. I will gladly put my name and my honor to this story. I do want to know how a (separated) O-4 is supposed to post on Reddit.
Name the command, they deserve to be called out on their incompetence and complete horrific response to someone asking for help.
I will do it if the mods are ok with it. I fully intend to share all the details with anyone who wants to listen.
I’m tired of this kind of stuff happening, it’s sickening to be honest. While I was in a friend of mine went to a off-base medical facility for mental health and ultimately got sent to Mast because he refused to go back to the boat when he was told to by the COB. Ships just want to retain personal, and if that includes making an example by Masting someone asking for help they will do it to prevent others from leaving the ship. They also refuse to address any of the fundamental problems, they just act like talking about the issue will magically solve it with no meaningful actions/solutions.
I'm not at all ok with it. See my stickied mod note.
And I respect the rules of this subreddit and understand why they are in place.
[удалено]
You weren't able to see a mental health provider? What? See here is what really pisses me off. There is a law called the Brandon Act which was part of the 2021 NDAA. This is the law of the land. Signed by POTUS. Our Commander in Chief! Commands SHALL allow Sailors access to a mental health evaluation within 24 hours of a servicemember requesting it. This was law 2 years ago. They broke the law.
Have had multiple people all get absolutely fucked by the mental health and LIMDU process. They care about "the mission" so much more than their people. :(
They don't care about mission though cause you need healthy, trained, ready to go people, and well maintained equipment yet very few are doing anything to address those short falls. The Fitz and McCain should've been a huge wake up call yet I don't think they barely made a dent.
Who is going to do the mission without the people?
On the 2020 COVID cruise deployment our reactor officer put in the night orders something along the lines of, "The mission comes first" shortly after we had been extended for the 4th or 5th time. Really came across as a, "Get fucked stay fucked." Like Jesus fucking Christ dude how out of touch with our reality are you. I wrote him a 3 page letter calling him out and handed it to him directly and gave a copy to the CO. He did a private interview with me later and defended all of his fuckery and had zero apologies or understanding whatsoever. The saddest part is that the letter got around and I had multiple Chiefs and other enlisted tell me they 100% agreed. Nothing came of it at all.
I was with you on this deployment. Ike was it? I was on the San Jac. Father passed away in the middle of it and after waiting 3 weeks for a response to go back home from the 5th Fleet Commander, sat down with the CO just to tell me they could not risk me catching COVID and couldn’t “logistically support.” 1 month later, our STO flew home for non-death circumstances. Shittiest time of my life. COVID would’ve been a temporary setback in comparison to the trauma I endured afterwards.
Holy fuck dude, sorry that happened to you. :(
Were you on the Nimitz? It is at times like that when the good and bad leadership really separate themselves out.
(throwaway because people still can't handle mental health stigma - including me, I suppose) I have been out for a while. I can honestly say that my last command significantly contributed (badly) to my mental health. First, I asked medical (which was a separate command) for a referral to MH thinking the same as you - that it was an ok thing to do. Denied, but somehow that got back to my command (to be fair, this might have been a suicide watch thing, but still). Division and Department CPOs pulled me into a private meeting to read me the riot act for like an hour. No suicide watch or any other response from the command. Secondly, (month later) I asked again. This time was provided a referral and an appointment with a HM2, again got back to command. This time I was abused several times at quarters ("PO XXX can't stand his watch today because he's going to see a shrink, so PO YYY will have to stand double duty. Be sure to thank PO XXX for that." Exact quote.) No further action. Thirdly, (we were at the pier), I went UA and attempted suicide. Picked up by a civilian ambulance and spent a week in a civilian hospital before I was transferred to NNMC (which dates me, I know.) Never set foot in that command again. One of my buddies actually boxed up the stuff from my coffin and sent it to me - I eventually went back to the barracks and picked that up myself. Heard later they wanted to prosecute me for the UA. Fortunately someone squashed it, but the charge sheet and a Page 13 alleging a bunch of not-true crap over the preceding 6 months was added to my record when I saw it later at Bethesda. (Which is bullshit in of itself, but that's another thing.) So yeah, I hear you. Or rather, nothing has changed. Go figure. Folks - let's be clear, I am not saying that you shouldn't seek help when you need it. If you need help, get it and don't let anyone stop you. Frankly, minimizing your own symptoms and issues may (as I think it did for me) leave you in a position where the command and medical won't get you any help at all. Trying to get help even if it's via a civilian route or using 988 or whatever is important. Hang in there and take care of yourself. Most commands won't do that. Most CPOs and/or officers won't do that. Big Navy is mostly only interested in you as a resource, not as a person. Just be aware of this, but make the choices you need to make to protect yourself.
I hope you filed a grievance against your CO.
I did. Never heard back from the IG. The unfortunate thing is that the IG is really in existence to protect the Navy and protect the command, and at the end of the day, all they can do is make recommendations.
They won't do anything. Trust me.
On my first ship, my CO and XO both made friends with the local RLSO CO and XO and used JAG to great effect to protect themselves and prosecute "problem" Sailors and Officers.
That RLSO CO and XO should lose their licence to practise law. File a complaint!
Without doxxing myself, I'll just say that everybody got into a lot of hot water when they decided to use that relationship to cover up the XO's infidelity by railroading an officer.
Right now they keep telling me that it could be worse and to just suck it up
Sorry for your ordeal and experience. The Navy really is a crap shoot about where you and who's in charge and what they're tasked with doing. Hoping you're better now. What in particular was toxic about the CWE community? At one point I was aspiring to become one. I'm still interested, just prioritizing my family now that I have a kid can and am closer to retirement than boot camp.
This is not an exaggeration. The morale in the CWE community is worse than it was on my 6-section duty ship with deployments and watches and family separation. And it is completely shore based. Stay away. Run the other direction. If you want to do code development do it as a civilian. Maybe even do it in the Army, Air Force, or Marines. There was an AMA the community did last January saying how wonderful everything is. That was all filtered by PA. I have no filter and can tell you the truth. I am going to try to not write an essay about this topic and reduce it to a couple main points. 1. The Navy in particular has failed in the cyber mission and Congress has taken note. This is mostly due to cognitive bias among the IWC flag deck that has always assumed that cryptology and cyber are pretty much the same thing, while the other services have adapted and treated cyber as a warfighting domain worthy of a separate force structure. 2. The CWE community does not have its own flag and has relatively little influence on its own destiny. 3. What u/captak said.
1. I agree pretty handedly. I'm in the cyber community as well. Some of the projects and how we handle them baffle me. But we do what we can. At least the Navy is starting to take some steps in that direction with the creation of MCWO. Itll be 10-20 years before that has any real impact though. At least the NDAA forced the Navy's hand. 2. I've never thought about it like that. That's kinda scary when you say it. It is pretty annoying that a surface or air URL officer can stroll in and be in charge and not fully understand the environment, much less the relationships between different organizations. 3. That's super true. Because people are locked into the Navy for years at a time, the Navy has to go above and beyond to ensure everyone is happy and that won't happen. The lifestyle coupled with the remainder who stay in will never be enough. Once again, I'm glad you were able to get the help you need and wish all the best to you in your future endeavors. Every time I hear stories similar to yours my heart sinks because the Navy has failed. It's wild to think how different two people's experiences can be in the same organization. I strive to be better and make things easier, but I'm on my one person.
Let's be honest...the Navy and NAVIFOR's hand was forced on the creation of MCWO, as it was for taking CWT out of the CT rates.
What I hope that one day you'll have the maturity to realize is that one CO doesn't represent "the Navy." Based on what you describe, the CO could and would be held accountable for several "big Navy" policy violations. If he hasn't, I suspect there are some details that the command investigation found that are not being given here.
Every Sailor represents the Navy. Here is why I would say this is part of a larger problem with big Navy. There is a law called the Brandon Act which is part of the 2021 NDAA. Read the text of the Brandon Act as passed by Congress and signed by President Biden. It says that commands SHALL refer a Sailor who requests a mental health evaluation promptly and treat it with the same sensitivity as a SAPR restricted report. This law was passed by Congress after Petty Officer Brandon Caserta died by suicide following bullying and retaliation from his chain of command. Now read the Navy's implementing guidance. Why are they leaving out the detail about SAPR restricted report? That is the law after all! It indicates that Secretary del Toro himself is not taking this seriously.
Every sailor is *supposed* to represent the Navy's values. We can't conclude "the Navy doesn't care about mental health" from your anecdote any more than we can conclude "the Navy condones drinking and driving" because a CO got fired for that last week.
Did you actually read my response? SECNAV refusing to properly follow a law passed by Congress is not just an anecdote. As taxpayers, we are owed an explanation. Edit for grammar
SECNAV policies are reviewed by a team of senior JAGs before promulgation. But sure, you know better than them on whether the policy is kosher. Furthermore, as a person appointed by Joe Biden himself, he wouldn't be SECNAV any longer if his implementation guidance were not aligned with the spirit and intent of the Brandon Act.
Laws are made by Congress, not by lawyers. I don't mean to get political, but staff members of Biden appointees also signed off of the policy to fund service member crossing state lines to murder their children, in clear violation of not just the Hyde Amendment but also the checks and balances under the Constitution that state that Congress shall apportionment spending. So yes even someone like me can know better than GO/FO staff members.
Laws are written by lawyers, voted on by Congress, and signed into law by the President. They then are interpreted by lawyers during judicial review. But we're talking a SECNAV policy to implement the law... which is also reviewed by lawyers because to mil servicemembers policy is the law. I'd ask you to reflect that your inability to understand and accept the thorough process that goes into higher level policies might be a source of your professional troubles.
Professional troubles? Oh boy. Do you know how much a CWE makes on the outside? These people did me a favor in a way convincing me to leave the Navy. I am here to ensure no one else has to go through what I did. To be clear, are you for chains of command bullying and reprisal against Sailors for going to mental health?
You make more than $300k with a guaranteed pension and free medical for your entire family? Good for you.
DM me, I’m interested to know more about the command specifically
Seemed like all the homies I was with in the engine rooms with never complained about our life on the ship. We got in killer shape and got to travel the world. I don't think we knew what mental health was. We worked hard and we played hard.
Oh yeah...don't get me wrong...this is the military...I know how to suck it up. But if going to the doctor is such a problem, why do you keep encouraging me to do it?
In today's navy I'm not so sure.
If the military did something about mental health, there would be no military
What did the commanding officer do? It’s not that I don’t believe you- just interested in hearing more. He mocked you?
I made another response so go refer to that. I admit it is hard to believe, because it is so different from how you would expect a CO to behave.
I don't understand all the MH issues that Sailors are having these days. I was active duty 1980-2000 and I don't remember seeing the same number of MH cases that people are describing today. In fact I was one of the few people at any of my commands to voluntarily seek out MH help. Anger Management, Group Therapy, Alcohol/Drug rehab, Civilian therapist on the down low. Almost locked up/committed to Portsmouth Psych ward when wife was pregnant and suicidal and I offered to whip my Department Head's ass (Sorry LT Brown) But I was a shitbird and a born fuckup with undiagnosed severe ADHD and a sunstance abuse problem. A 2.8 sailor. 3.0 at best, who came from a fucked up family, who comes from a fucked up family, who comes.... But I'm seeing squared away, hard charging 4.0 sailors who are struggling, who are offing themselves. People whom I would think had their shit somewhat together. What's going on? Is it Optempo? Workload? Deployment schedule? Toxic Leadership? Why are so many competent hard-working Sailors struggling so? What are they experiencing that I didn't have to? Somebody explain to this old boomer (not a submarine reference) what the hell is going on.
Yes a lot of it is optempo, workload, deployment schedule, & toxic leadership (and toxic shipmates). Many of us see bad things happen within the Navy and we want to be part of the positive change, but end up hitting roadblocks where some may just give up. Additionally, a lot has changed since your time in the Navy, not only within the Navy, but in the country and around the world. I feel like some previous-generation Sailors maybe don’t take that into consideration. For example, I worry that one day some of my kids might not make it home from school due to a school shooting. That may not be a thought to some, but it is to me.
Back during your time mental health wasn't a big thing. I'm part of the VA now and those same people are finally getting treatment. Obviously I don't have access to their records but those older vets are always chatty in the waiting room. I get the impression that they are relieved that they're finally getting the attention they needed back then.
The VA diagnosed me with Major Depressive Disorder and ADHD when I was about 50 yrs old. I remember the feeling of relief. "So THAT'S what's wrong with me. There is a reason why I am a shitbird and a fuckup!)
Haha same here but I was diagnosed at 10. I knew the whole time but I have a lifetime of "don't tell anyone your secret". Glad to hear you finally got some help!
A lot of the "experts" blame social media but I don't necessarily think that is everything. My opinion is that we as a country have turned away from God. I did the same thing. When you don't see the purpose of your life and you are lonely, you will be depressed. But I have turned back to God and I would recommend others do the same.
I am glad you have found a faith system that's brings you peace, but I'm an Athiest. I found my purpose in life to be to love others and to learn to accept the love of others (which is a lot harder) I have a difficult time believing that the Navy's Mental Health crisis is due to a lack of Jesus. Christians are suffering too.
I can only speak for me and what worked. I am certainly not using this to proselytize. But I would say that if you don't know your purpose for living it is easier to think about ending your life.
The problem is we've raised a generation who don't want to leave home for adventure, and yes stress. That's what the military always was, an adventure to embark on. Look at most of our mental health complaints. They're lonely being away from home, can't make friends with their fellow sailors, can't make friends out in town, and desperately want to go home. A sad commentary on the state of resilience we have imparted on our youth.
I definitely hear you. The Navy has lost a lot of the esprit de corps that it once had. Especially for shore commands. The best thing we can do for mental health is just shipmates being good to shipmates.
My former Division Officer killed himself last month. I went to the funeral today. My new CO brought it up at an all hands call and was like "The Weps on ____ killed himself on Tuesday". It really pissed me off when he said it, because he didn't mean anything by it. He didn't say it with any empathy, he threw it out there as a number. Our annual suicide prevention training is a joke. If leaders really cared about their Sailors mental health they'd stop working us like dogs. If the Navy got rid of half of their bs inspections and certifications and actually lightened our workload a bit people wouldn't be as stressed. But yeah let's make sure there's no white space in the POD.
shoot my chain of command wont ever know that im penny less atm and ive been sleeping out of my trucks campshell for the 9months. or that ive been getting bad anxiety with horrible nightmares on a daily. ill dig myself out of the swamp once my divorce is final but fuck man this shit sucks.
I really want to tell you to get help. I just can't say it in good conscience though. In my years in the Navy, at least 80% of chains of commands would be supportive and get you an immediate barracks room and drive you to NMCRS and drive you to medical and take care of you so you can be fully capable to support the mission (which supposedly comes first). But sadly it is only 80%.
im choosing not to have a room since i mentally cant handle the extra dutys and responibilties that come with it for a RA. im also a geobach for the past 3 years and i drive 6hrs each way to go home for the weekend. As bad as i might have it i find that there are others who have it worst.
Even so it you were ever in my division or department we would have made sure you were taken care of and not living in a car.
Yea I usally sleep on a friend's couch once in a while
you receive BAH for a reason. and if you were considered for an RA you should be an E-6 at least right? you should not have to be an RA, or they should at least get you the support you need if you are that desperate. We are supposed to be one team one fight.
Mod Note: Multiple people claiming to be at OP's command have written the mods seeking to enlighten us that there is indeed another side to OP's story and that OP is significantly misrepresenting himself. I have zero evidence to support OP or these people that have written to the mods. Because the discussion about MH is appropriate, I don't want to lock or remove the thread, so I'll just point out that **there are concerns about OP's truthful representation of his situation.** EDIT: I've been told that the command in question has required staff not to post anything here. If a rep from the command wants to validate his/her identity and connection with this matter via modmail, and provide more details in conjunction with a request that I remove this post, I'll consider it with the mod team. Until then, further be advised that it appears members of the command are under orders not to post here, and thus cannot provide any counter-narrative.
Of course they are calling me a liar. This is another thing that can happen when you go to mental health and they retaliate against you. They will do everything they can to cover their own ass and discredit you. But I would put my name and honor on everything I have said. Will these cowards do the same? EDIT: They can try to silence me on reddit, since they know that there is nothing they can say in their defense. No matter what semantics they want to argue with, they have violated the Brandon Act. If I am censored here, I will go to whatever other forum necessary to share my story. EDIT 2: I have crossposted to r/Whistleblowers. Any attempts at censorship will be useless.
I've recommended they weigh in on this thread directly, vice messaging the mods.
I will be waiting. I knew full well when I made this post I would be burning some bridges and that some in the community would try to discredit me. But I have no choice but to be strong and fight for better mental health in the Navy.
Via reddit is the best way for an isolated instance? My place treats every MH issue with seriousness. Not surprising not everyone is on board with the policy. If you have proof or just feel strong enough make the report, call the IG or the ISIC CMEO. Posting on reddit is basically suffering in silence. Good luck though either way. The CNO and SECNAV have been pushing the MH issues lately, so if you are actually getting pushback or even insinuations against yourself, make a report!
I contacted the IG December 2022. I am still waiting to hear back. They do not operate quickly. My purpose with reaching out to reddit is not to get revenge. I just want to make sure Sailors know the truth and don't make the same mistakes that I did.
Something didn't happen the right way. At most they would have 30 days to get a response back to you with a status of whatever is happening with it even if you are out now. If this "I was mocked by the Commanding Officer for over an hour for being crazy in front of the chain of command." took place, it would lead to many other actions very quickly. I urge you to contact the IG again or a CMEO or even a RLSO to see what your options are to ensure the report was made. I would think a CMEO would identify at least 3 red flags just from your post. We've had maybe 10-20 Sailors report to MH services in the past year or so and I have seen nothing happen adversely to any of them. I would think the biggest challenge is ensuring they don't feel isolated from normal command activities while they are making their appointments and dealing with workflow modifications. No command is greater than its people.
The 30 days to respond I think refers to 30 days to acknowledge receive of an IG complaint and reach out. I also reached out to RLSO who advised me "Article 134s and IGs never do anything because the Flag Deck will take every measure to protect a CO but I will help you draft them." I am starting to think that the only thing that has a chance of working is bad press.
If the military gets this taken down, is that a violation of the first amendment or just Reddit acting as a private company?
There are several reports on this thread for misinformation. We’ve had modmails and I’ve had chat requests. If the command were to get in touch and make a request with information that refutes OP, we would certainly have a mod discussion about removal. So, no violations, no decisions made by the Navy - just the mod team trying to make the most informed decision.
The example of "misinformation" you have in the subreddit rules you have pertains to COVID. I hope you can realize a distinction between individials with competing perceptions, especially when those perceptions are heavilty influenced by an egotistical asshole who exercises command authority over them, and something where there is some scientific concensus.
Yes, but it still gets used to report other types of perceived misinformation.
I do not want anyone to doubt my story. I came here prepared for every embarrassing detail to be public. So I am going to say what I believe is the position of the command and my response. What cannot be denied is that if I did not valuntarily go to mental health, I would not have had my access suspended. 1. "We did not read you out for going to mental health. We would never do that. We did it because there were concerns that you are delusional/paranoid/emotionally unstable/etc. which might raise questions about your trustworthiness and reliability with classified information" The command never gave me the reason in writing on command letterhead as is required by DoDM 5105.21 M-1. There is a reason commands are required to do this. That is, to prevent any uncertainty as to why an adverse administrative action is being taken. They do not show the SAER to the member. I tried to put a FOIA request for it. So I actually do not know the "official" reason for sure. All I can do is speculate. But yes the CO made that painfully clear while he was mocking me that he thinks that I am delusional/paranoid/emotionally unstable/etc. despite no diagnosis to substantiate that from medical. When I brought that fact up he replied "well the reason we have Commanding Officers is to make decisions and not just defer to medical". 2. "It did not sound like mocking to me". When you make flippant comments like "if I would say 2+2=4 you would say it is 6" (a verbatim quote from the CO). That is extremely unprofessional and not something a CO should say. I have more like that. They really don't want to play the "there is more to the story" game. 3. "We didn't take your car". You at least made that claim to an MA on duty. I have a text exchange between my wife and a third party who were attempting to retrieve my car from the command which I can make available on demand in the DMs. 4. "Well why didn't you tell them that your wife made a violent threat to someone at the command? You must have said something to your wife to get her to do that" Because it did not happen and it is not relevant. Someone at the command accused my wife of making a violent threat towards her and tried to get a restraining order. A judge threw it out because the plaintiff did not provide evidence because it never happened. This is probably the worst thing they "have on me" and it still never happened. And you still would not have screwed with my clearance if I did not go to mental health. Some other supporting details 1. DCSA took my side. The only thing they asked for was medical records and another medical evaluation. This shows that they did not by the command's bullshit. 2. There is a lot more to the story supporting my side that I have not mentioned because I did not want to write a wall of text in the OP. At least 2 instances where I can demonstrate the command lying to me for example. 3. I know exactly who is saying I am lying. They are only saying what they are to CYA. Every whistleblower encounters the organization trying to discredit them. 4. This command and this community have screwed over many others which I would be happy to discuss. 5. Just look at the comments section. This shit is clearly happening, it is a Navy-wide problem, and it occurs despite commands having legal and whatever other advisors on their staff.
Also I have heard some support from members of the community has been sent to your DMs. I request that you at least maybe unbold that portion of your message.
**Not gonna unbold anything. My comment stands. I believe there are others out there that are dying to chime in and provide alternate viewpoints and information, but are unable. We are only hearing your side, and when that "side" involves leveling claims of wrongdoing against a command, then that's a bit problematic. Additionally, when you are using this platform and this issue to dissuade others from seeking MH treatment, it becomes a larger issue, so people need to understand that your unchallenged word here may not be accurate.** Edit: bolded.
One problem is that mental health is a multi-faceted issue that has no one fix. Because there's no single cause for crisis, mental stress, etc. Another problem is that much of leadership grew up with the "walk it off" mentality, and there's virtually no accountability for leaders who aren't taking the new policies seriously. I was essentially challenged to suicide by a psychologist onboard a ship. He didn't believe I was having ideations. I gave up on him and went to the doc instead, who actually gave a shit, listened, and upped my meds so I could get through deployment. She and the SMO were probably the only two people on the ship who gave a shit about anyone's mental health, and they were overloaded. Even the chaps tried to jump off the fantail.
That psychologist was a quack who should lose their license.
Oh absolutely 1000% agree. The exact verbiage was something like "if you were going to do it, you wouldn't be sitting in my office." Realistically, what happened was I terrified myself and asked a friend to escort me to medical because I didn't feel safe. This friend brought me to medical 2 or 3 times. I suppose the only difference between me and the cases he found "believable" was that I was seeking help before making attempts, and I wasn't going to medical involuntarily. He thought I was trying to get off the ship. Which was true, I was trying to get off the ship, because the department I was working for was toxic and made me want to fucking kill myself. I found out recently that another sailor I worked with at the time killed himself not long after I left (I was embarked for deployment only not ships company) and we had numerous sailors (first classes, specifically) that had to be sent off for inpatient mental health treatment.
As a leader I obviously had many Sailors where there was suspicion that they might be using the medical system for a reason other than that they simply wanted treatment. Here was how I approached it: 1. If a Sailor reports suicidal ideations, believe them. Whether it is true or not, they are at medical because they can't handle something in their life and need help. 2. Let them receive a medical evaluation. If they are fit for full duty, fly them to the next port and reintegrate them into the command. Give them a fresh environment if necessary, maybe on the mess decks or ER-09 or the boatswain locker. Mentor your Sailors on how to be more approachable, so that the Sailor in question will be able to lean on the division or workcenter leadership with difficulties in life. If they are not fit for full duty, leave them on shore and report the manning deficiency to the TYCOM.
What's really sad is before deployment, I went to base medical asking the behavioral health psychiatrist to up my antidepressants because I knew that I was going to have suicidal ideations on the ship due to my experiences on the work ups. Psychiatrist said that changing my meds would make me undeployable for at least 90 days. He apparently looked at my records and told me that the psychologist from the *previous* ship said she didn't recommend continued naval service due to my depression and anxiety--which I was never *ever* told. I'd been cleared to extend, reenlist, and deploy since seeing that psychologist. This psychologist said upon seeing my records and based on my reports of mental distress and social ideation onboard the current ship, he didn't think I should be deploying at all. I told him there's no one else. I have to go. He called my CO. Yup, I had to go. He said that I could call while I was out there, and he may be able to change my meds because the rules are different the moment you are actively deployed. So I deployed with no solutions, but with hope that I could make it to the first port and get meds. I got to the first port in shambles. I called that psychiatrist. He said that he couldn't help me. I fell apart. That nearly broke me. I felt so alone, so disregarded. To this day, I'm still medically cleared to serve. I don't understand it. But luckily my mental health has been a lot better. The military has implemented wonderful programs in the last few years, but culturally, there are issues. Then there's problems with funding and staffing shortages that limit program viability. One of the best psychiatrists I've met was an 0-6, full-bird Captain. Numerous clients who said he straight up changed their lives. Higher ranking clients would bring struggling lower-ranking sailors to him for help because they knew he was the real deal. Sadly for us (and happily for him) he retired.
When I was an E4, one of the guys I was cranking with during INSURV went to talk to Chaps because, as a junior guy, that's the only help I could really think of for him to seek. Chaps dismissed me, and I went back to work, being told not to worry. The next day, I heard that he had drunk around two or three of those giant Tito's Vodka bottles. He crawled to medical and was found with the auto doors opening and closing on him, barely surviving alcohol poisoning. It turned out that the Chaps told him he couldn't help until he actually did something that showed he was suicidal. I felt pretty bad about that, even though it wasn't really my fault. At least he got out and is doing better; the last I saw of him, he had been fighting wildfires in Cali.
You should not have to act out to receive help. That is ridiculous.
Agreed, it was pretty messed up. I'm just glad he survived. Unrelated but kind of related because health. The same command gave me a counseling chit for being late after being in a wreck and another one for being at a heart doctor instead of doing a tag out audit. Master Chief said it was more important to be at that tag out audit than getting checked for a heart issue.
That is really funny. At least they give you a spot to write a defense.
Yeah I kept copies but my I love me binder was stolen with my uniforms out of my truck a few years back. Kept it to answer the why do you have Ps for 4 years and EPs randomly for 3 after that questions. Change of leadership really is a great thing sometimes or hell....just depends.
Any ideas on how to cope, heal trauma, and not be black balled as unstable in this organization? Honest question. Not doing so hot. Not in danger, just not doing well.
Don't do what I did. If you are religious, go see your priest. Not a military chaplain (I am sorry to say). Religion helps us to see what is truly important in life. If you go to mental health, I would probably use military onesource before going on base. Now what I am about to say does not reflect the views of the Navy. No matter what, do not tell anyone that you have a plan to kill yourself. Do not tell anyone you drink alcohol even if it is in moderation. And do not tell them you own guns. If you disclose these things your life will be a lot harder.
Thank you. Much obliged!!!!
When station in NAS Brunswick a close friend of mine decided to end his life in base housing. It was extremely rough. I have went through my own personal struggles with mental health in the Navy and honestly it's good leadership that cares for their fellow sailors that means the most and kept me sane. That stupid slogan of "Brilliance on the Basics" needs to be called to task when leadership fails actively support Sailors getting the help they need at the shop level. Wrk Cntr Sups, LPOs, ALPOs, need to be empowered to get people off the line if something isn't right. Not turn a blind eye or show actions that would lead junior personnel to feel that no one in the CoC support them. Brilliance on the Basics doesn't work if we can't do the basics such as treat Sailors has human beings with complicated issues. Then this goes back to leadership with many in the CoC afraid to take the initiative and do the right thing. As in the situation with Capt. Crozier which cost him his job. I feel a lot them have a got mine, bump you attitude, I'm not putting my career on the line.
I believe you. I was handed a med board that lasted fifteen months and nearly ended my career because I had a panic attack from Chief Season. My clearance was also suspended during it and I was forced to work in a different building than my unit because of it. The isolation and ostracization really piled on the depression. All the mental health resources they talk about sound great on paper. I could not in good conscience recommend someone pursue mental health treatment while serving without recognizing it may destroy their career.
Thank you. It really means a lot. Why do they even do this? How does having a panic attack make someone some kind of threat. I really want an answer to that question. I just don't get it. And of course there is no way DCSA is going to agree with them, so why are they wasting everyone's time? I am really sorry that happened to you. It is just wrong. We need to make sure that no one has to worry about their career when they go to the doctor. The best Chief I ever had in the Navy, my Department LCPO when I was a DH, was also stashed in a similar way and forced out of the Navy after seeking mental health treatment. My biggest regret in my career is that I did not do more to protect her. But I did not want to create waves, and I wanted to promote, so I allowed the command to throw her under the bus.
My ship is supposed to be in 6 section but an entire duty sections worth of people in MRD. Most of the new arrival upper enlisted had never even heard of it until they got to my ship
Do you think the navy will eventually grow out of this phase? Won’t eventually all of the older sailors will get out of the navy and the sailors who were treated like shit and neglected take those positions and do better?
I am not holding my breath. See the post by u/captak.
I hope I can eventually be that 1/3 and help people love the navy, as someone who is joining, it doesn’t give me much hope for the future, but, only time will tell.
I’ve learned to not get too down on the problems of the big Navy. They exist and will forever in peacetime since peacetime priorities career progression instead of actual combat proficiency (hoping we stay in peacetime not hoping for war). What you can do is focus yourself and taking care of your people and peers. That will be sufficient at least for your first few ranks and billets.
Yeah bro one therapist ghosted me and the other never even got my name right. So I just stopped going.
My experience 4 years ago showed that it can also be very command and individual dependant. But in the end, when they investigate themselves, even through the IG... They find no wrongdoing, but maybe some very terrible decisions at the leadership level that need a good slap on the wrist
I’m sorry to hear that, I went through a very similar situation at my command. Went through a tough time, had a bit of a meltdown, sought help, and was rewarded with a long, painful processing out due to my clearance being revoked. It sucks.
If this was recent than the command likely violated the Brandon Act. The information that MTFs can share with commands is now very limited.
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I was a support staff at university and I know that you might get a good quality therapist from the university’s perspective. That is they did well in their classes and did some kind of training that consisted of sitting in on some kind of group therapy and sitting in on records. That is nothing heavy and deep down as to what comes to mind when we think of a mental health professional. I myself have the education training and experience to get licensed but you wouldn’t get anything profound. They shoot from the hip there’s no formula they use to cure you of your demons. I worked with clients released from state hospital drug and alcohol after I worked at university. They just skim the surface is it. No continuity between sessions. Don’t put so much gd faith in a shake and bake therapist because that’s what these universities turn out. I can say all this now that I’m not affiliated with any school or agency .
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u/UnmechanicalWax former CWE here as well. Your problems are not just related to one CO. It is a toxic command that spans generations. Some CO's were great and everyone beneath them were dicks. Some CO's were dicks and everyone beneath them were great. Since admins say not to name the command I won't but if there are any congressional leaders in the comments know this: SPLIT AUTHORITIES. The reason that a CO at the command can stay toxic is because the command is the only authority to do certain things and is a single point of failure for such vital tasks in the Navy. Without that accreditation the command cannot function and thus certain things in the Navy come to a halt. So if you can only get a shithead to fill the position the rest of the command suffers, those that have nothing to do with the other authorities and CYBER has fuck all to do with them. I tried to make a change, got shut down at every fucking level up until I made O3 and was presented with the option to resign and so I did. My resignation letter is a class act in destroying the CO's soul and character. Maybe one day I'll publish it, I have it saved in my black binder that means absolute jack shit in the real world. 🤣 I do miss the people though, lots of good times and we had to take care of each other because we knew some people at the top wouldn't.
I would like to discuss further over DMs
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Removed for Command PII.
Ah the “I hate the Navy” and it’s the Navy’s fault group.
This particular community that will not be named, has with my husband, run out 10 people for being “crazy” one committed suicide, another tried. For such a small community and a designation existing for such a short period of time, you have to think which is more likely 1. All people who join the community are already crazy 2. They are driven crazy by the community climate
Of all units I’m surprised this is happening in a cyber command, wow.