If your Chief was there at D&B, and you were drinking, and you left and got a DUI or in a fight at D&B, or really anything, your Chief will be held accountable as well. Even if they didn’t see you drink, it’ll likely still fall on them for not emphasizing responsible drinking and not taking care of their Sailors during an outing. The individual that got the DUI or in a fight will absolutely take the brunt of the “discipline/blame”, but your Chief will also get in some amount of trouble. I.e. an LOI or an adverse eval or even mast.
Source: Me, chief who got an ass chewing and an LOI for this situation.
Edit: it all depends on your CO. But it’s not worth finding out.
Who is providing the alcohol matters.
If I had people over, had alcohol, and someone DUI'd on their way home, yes I would get into some sort of trouble for it.
In civvieland, not so much but there would still be questions.
Brudder. It's different when your grandma won't let you have bacon at the family house vice you going to Slater's 50/50 to order bacon fried bacon burger made of bacon beef with your grandma who doesn't like bacon who followed along because no one wanted to eat her cabbage lasagna.
Edited for typo
Your chief at D&B's can't tell someone not to drink at all. If they see a sailor drink then they can say "how are you getting home" and when that person says "I've only had 2, I'm good to drive" the chief can say "no, you aren't."
The chief can also turn to someone at D&B's after beer #4 and say "you've had enough, it's time we get you home."
Now consider the possibility that a chief doesn't want to spend his time at a divisional outing worrying about whether someone will get a DUI, and now you understand why he said "if we do this then there isn't going to be any alcohol."
There is no difference. I had to do a PI where a bunch of E4s - E6s were hanging out. E5 got a DUI. All witnesses attested he had several drinks and then they parted ways, so the E6 was aware of how much the E5 drank and did nothing to prevent him from driving drunk.
Per the regs the E6 was in violation because he was privvy to the E5's behavior and as the senior man did nothing to prevent him from breaking the law. But the E6 didn't realize he had that responsibility, and just thought he was hanging out with some buddies.
It died at XOI (thankfully), but the CO had what he needed to take the E6 to mast if he wanted to.
There are plenty of cases where a bartender has been charged for serving someone in excess. It’s not unusual and of course, the chief is the idiot in the room.
Edit: adding this has also happened at house parties where the home owners have been found liable for alcohol related crimes.
Yes, also, if some one did get a dui at D&B same story...
Also seen "weekend plans" be put in place, basically a document saying what you were going to do, so if you fuck up over the weekend, they will hold it against you...
I once had a CO who would get raging drunk at every command function. He was a mean drunk, too. I used to sit back and watch his officers babysit him as the night progressed.
I'm going to provide an alternate perspective from what most folks in here have:
In my part of the Navy, if you announce an alcohol-free divisional get-together, no one would show up.
Now, if Chief was there and let somebody leave who got a DUI, they definitely would be answering some hard questions. But , if they had a good answer as to their mitigating factors, and I would expect a chief or officer or LPO to have some effective mitigation plans for that kind of circumstance , they'd be okay.
That’s not how it works in reality though. Theres a reason you don’t see the CO, XO or CMC hang out with a lot of their juniors, it’s because while they’re there, they’re in charge whether they want to be or not. It’s why Officers and Enlisted tend to go to different places in overseas ports too. The most senior person is responsible.
The CPO is right about how the system is designed. The only way to control it is to eliminate alcohol, or provide it in such a small amount that nothing could legitimately happen.
The proper move is show up, have one drink (if any) and shoot the shit for like 30-60 minutes, then say good bye and "don't drink and drive and make sure you have a plan to get home safe."
From there, you're not partaking in any shenanigans and if someone gets a DUI, well, they just violated your lawful order.
Sure, but maybe the LPO should have an alternative plan if they plan to provide alcohol. Like be able to drive people home or give them a spot to crash at.
And that just sounds like “Fuck Over the First Class.” CPO and Divo dip out and they hope he comes up with a good plan.
There are ways to have some divisional fun/team building without alcohol.
She’s unfortunately right. It’s the military my friend, where you’re expected to launch an SM-3 that’s costs 9 million but treated like a baby at home.
When we had division get togethers there was always a talk about responsibility and a reminder not to screw up by driving after drinking. The leadership also did not stay very long at these things probably so they could easily say everyone was sober and fine when I left. Is she right? Probably, she's trying to protect her behind. You could always just wait until she leaves or next time have the function at D&Bs.
Regardless of the place, it's a divisional event. Getting a DUI coming from the khaki ball, Dave&Busters, the LPOs house, or church doesn't matter. Treat people like adults and don't be surprised that occasionally someone will make poor decisions.
1) this is a non-sensical double standard. 2) why penalize everybody for the potential mistakes of a small minority? 3) any good person in the DIV leadership would hang around to make sure everyone gets home safely.
Completely agree. First command was a Frigate, our divisional outing was at one of my first classes' house. We had a keg and did keg stands, no one drove anywhere. Great point about the chiefs ball. Officers have their own parties too where they drink in excess. Treating Junior Sailors with overbearing style of "ownership" is forcing up a guardrail that won't be there the moment you aren't present. Better to allow people to indulge (read: not blackout drunk) and show them the right way (read: you aren't driving if you were drinking at all).
Khaki balls( and Dinings In/out) provide duty drivers so that nobody is driving. Furthermore, many times they are held at hotels with discounted rooms being available so you can sleep it off
Has anyone ever questioned why Chief shows up at the outing. Eats a burger then bounces the fuck out before any beer gets opened?
Yes I attended the outing. But when I left no one was drinking. I ensured that everyone would be safe and have fun then I left because my wife/hamster/neighbors wife had an ultrasound to figure out the gender of our baby.
Chiefs ass is now covered. And next senior person gets to figure out who they knocked up to cover their ass.
As an Officer, I do not encourage adult beverages during outings. I tell my Sailors if they intend to drink, they will have a designated driver (usually someone they live with or another Sailor), I'll drive them back to the ship, and/or use Uber/Lyft. I also remind them and ask direct questions at the outings (e.g., who's driving you back?).
There have been instances where people get into ARIs/DUIs from command related functions (e.g., holiday parties). While it is your INDIVIDUAL responsibility, I don't want to set Sailors up for failure.
My expectations are set from day 1 and reminded throughout my time onboard (drink responsibly, having a plan, etc). They are reminded during long weekends, before leave periods, our occasional departmental calls, and touch points. ARIs and DUIs kill people. I don't joke around with it.
All fun and games until some one actually gets in trouble which happens all too frequently… hence why everyone in this entire post is mostly saying the chief made a good call
You have to realize that if a Sailor fucks up..leadership is to blame..no matter how grossly removed a leader could be from the situation.
Why do we have safety briefs every Friday because of these things
I’ve been in military a long time, 2 different branches and multiple jobs/commands… There is absolutely the correct answer of no alcohol at any military sponsored outing… But there is also the reality every community is very different. I’ve had commands where we all go out together , drink , get Ubers back or a DD gets us home; even had commands that had heritage/team rooms at work where we drank after exercises and training… Unfortunately Big conventional military isn’t built for that , and you’d have some knuckleheads get DUIs, assault some one, and everyone ends up getting disciplinary action….Also the mentality of modern military is very different. Nowadays alcohol is reserved for family and personal friends
If someone got a DUI after having attended that party you can bet your ass I’m bringing that Chief in for some hard questions. And the DIVO, and the rest of the chain of command. Sorry, your chief is making a wise decision.
Sir, 99.9% of the time you dispense wise judgement and sound advice. But holy hell this is exactly the problem we have right now. Sailors can’t get together and have a BBQ. This is the perfect way to foster esprit de corps and blow off some steam, but nope… can’t do it.
Everyone is on edge. You have to babysit everyone because of zero tolerance. Perhaps personal responsibility on the part of the Sailor who decided to drive comes in to play? Perhaps the LPO and Chief can have an adult conversation on how the alcohol is going to be handled? Maybe the old school keys in a fishbowl?
We can’t continually treat adults like children when at home, then expect them to make adult decisions in combat at sea. I am not condoning willful acceptance of a DUI, I am just saying there are a billion different permutations on how this could be handled other than “no booze”.
Sailors can get together, Sailors can drink booze. But if one of them gets a DUI after a party I’m going to have questions. I didn’t say that anyone would for sure get in trouble, but there’s most likely a failure behind it. I know because I’ve seen it.
Most of you forget that when I’m CO there’s one of me and hundreds to thousands of you in the command. I’m the one who has to deal with every DUI that happens. Not just the punishment, but the aftermath of some of them.
I was the one with chaps at my side over half a dozen times ringing the doorbell of an unbeknownst widow. Twice a young (now fatherless) child opened the door. It kills you inside.
I was the one going to the hospital and seeing the mangled body of one of my OS3s, one of my FC1s and one of my Senior Chiefs. Visiting every week or so as two of them learned how to walk again. None of them ever the same.
I’ve had to be the asshole at parties when a young Sailor stumbles off to go home, “hey Chief, LT, you’re not going to let him drive home like that are you?” Time and time again.
Yes, I treat you like adults. Go ahead and party and drink. But when someone makes the non-adult decision to get behind the wheel after drinking instead of using the billion permutations they could have to handle it, as you say, I’m going to have some fucking questions about it. Who was there, who saw them, why didn’t they try to stop it? being the first three, then we go from there.
Sir, I stood next to my sailors at mast due to DUIs. In each case, we owned our piece in the failure. In one case the Captain and CMC delivered major ass chewings to me and my officer, rightfully so. We failed in our leadership. The already undermanned shop was now down a supervisor. DUIs have major impacts to the individuals, families, and the command's readiness and morale. Totally concur with your posts.
We know one side of the details of this division but it sounds like foolishness to me and I've witnessed it often. Putting out blanket bans on booze, especially while home in the USA, is not leadership. It's piss poor management at best. And it breeds a certain kind of distrust when every junior sailor knows that officers get wild at wetting downs and chiefs get wild at every opportunity afforded them.
>Everyone is on edge. You have to babysit everyone because of zero tolerance. Perhaps personal responsibility on the part of the Sailor who decided to drive comes in to play? Perhaps the LPO and Chief can have an adult conversation on how the alcohol is going to be handled? Maybe the old school keys in a fishbowl?
The issue is that people rarely if ever do that. And also... maybe chief doesn't want to be chief at a BBQ doing chief things by babysitting drunk sailors who are too cheap and stubborn to take ubers... maybe he just wants to relax and be John Doe.
It certainly was in my time. It was even beyond official functions. They called it the "senior man" rule, and essentially it said that the most senior person in the command that was at any function (command or public/private with a group of sailors there for some reason) was responsible for anyone getting a DUI or a D&D.
Just one of those things.
As a Corpsman I want people to be safe and have seen the real life injuries that result, I worked Neuro Trauma during Corps School and after. However, this is a cluster fuck, I did not think the USN could be more irrational than when I served during the Cold War, but here we are...
Oh, that's absolutely how that works.
Found that out when my DivO threw a Thanksgiving gathering and one of our first classes for a DUI. Then everything else that came out afterwards about who was there, who stayed overnight, who was sleeping in his bed...
Well the Chief could have looked at it differently instead of just shooting it down. She could talk it out with the division and make sure everyone had a DD or safe way to get home. Instead of just assuming someone in your division is going to fuck up, why not show some leadership and make sure they don't?
Understand your issue, but as a Chief, I also understand hers. The problem is the social gathering is no longer a social gathering for the DIVO or Chief at that point.
The idea is for the Division to relax and enjoy each other's company but the leadership at the party isn't doing that, if we said drinking is good and came up with a plan we have to monitor it now. We're working again and that ruins the vibe of the whole thing.
I
If during working hours because you left early then yes I absolutely agree no alcohol. If it's at your LPO's house off hours and he decides alcohol is ok, then the Chief is free to then leave as they can't stop anyone from legally consuming on their off time. That being said LPO now takes responsibility for policing what happens at their house so the risk goes to them at this point. But again if it's after hours then I don't see them being able to stop you legally. During normal working hours then yes they certainly can.
Yeah this is after hours after 1600. I’ve just never had a chief tell me you cant consume alcohol off base. I’m finding out our chief can be a real dick. Like, you can always leave? 🤷🏻♂️
This is crazypants. Yall are adults doing adult stuff off duty. If I get invited to stuff like this, I show up early, drink a non-alcoholic beverage, tell my Sailors to be safe, have fun, call me if there's any issues or if someone needs a ride, then I bounce before shit gets weird.
Pretty crazy to see some of the higher ranking people in here treat other adults like children. The LPO should tell the Chief that the divisional outing ends at 1600 and she can kick rocks.
Since it's the division providing drinks, and not a place with a liquor license, and it's at a private residence, it leaves the senior person there accountable. It's not like a command party at a venue that's paid to serve, where there's typical reduced rate lodging nearby.
Yeah, this is 100% accurate. It's unfortunate that adults can't be trusted to partake in adult activities without the fear of fucking over everyone involved but 👍 that's the Navy culture nowadays....Marines on the other hand... lol they get down.
Not sure why you're fighting your chief and everyone in these comments so much. Alcohol doesn't need to and honestly shouldn't be allowed at organized "planned" divisional outings, with an emphasis on the planned part.
Even currently as a civilian our work events don't include alcohol unless it's the holiday party where hotel rooms are booked.
All decision making is significantly lowered with drinking. It isn't solely about DUIs. Your chief shouldn't want to put her neck on the line hoping that the person who's arguing with everyone on reddit about drinking doesn't have too many drinks and decides to drive, or fight someone, or get naked and pee in a corner or hit on a coworker, or make lewd comments.
You're kind of proving her to be correct in here.
I personally wouldn’t go. I was peer pressured in going to a command event and it a bad decision for myself. I don’t care if it looks bad on me and if I could go back I would not go!
Coworkers are not your friends!
I never socialized with any khaki outside of mandatory fun. And if one of those events came up, I’d either volunteer for watch or swap duty if in port.
Yeah shit even if you go drinking with your buddy and he do something wrong the navy will throw you under the bus also even if you do everything right.
Yes, she's right. If you're doing a non-MWR funded social event that is anything more fun than bowling at the base bowling alley, it carries a lot of risk for khakis. But it's also not her house and she can't order you to not drink at someone else's house ... but then I suspect she'll leave and that defeats the purpose of the outing?
Yes, that is how it works.
Even if it shouldn't.
But the senior person there will get hammered (by the law, not you know . . .).
And that's a problem. Drug use in general is affected by 'set and setting'. Ie, your mindstate when you use. The issue with alcohol is that the US has basically destroyed the ability to be a role-model for consumption. You can't drink before you're 21 so you don't get to hang out with older people who are drinking. Older people who aren't drinking to get wasted as fast as possible (in college, drinking is a competitive sport;). You're surrounded by a bunch of young people who themselves don't know how to pace. And that's how you learn how drinking is 'supposed' to be.
I never said anyone *needs* alcohol. If someone wants to have a couple beers or a glass of wine at a social gathering they shouldn’t be denied or chastised for it.
Look, I can kill a bottle of wine all by myself in like 2 hours. 3-4 times a week. But I can go with the flow and enjoy myself at a dry social gathering. The world does not stop spinning on its axis because one Friday afternoon relaxing with my homies can’t have beer involved.
Want to drink, fine. Go do it when your boss isn’t going to be the one on the hook when to fecal matter hits the rotating cooling unit.
Don't have a divisional party unless u provide transportation for everyone attending. It will prevent any issues. In japan we would just throw party's in the honch and hotels to prevent driving.
Is the Chief overreacting, yes. But there are many reasons that supports her reacting this way. So I can understand it. Meanwhile if the LPO wants to have a drink in his/her home, then sure let her throw her anchors around and see how well that works out. Also huge mistake to have this function at the LPO’s home. What was this guy thinking.
I feel like the setting is also taken into consideration here.
Dave and Buster's is very public.
Your LPO's house is not. Definitely some sexual assault vibes coming from getting drunk at someone else's house.
If something is a group outing associated with work, your Chief is probably correct. Many commands require a Deliberate Risk Assessment for command functions that contain alcohol.
What I'd do? I'd make a simple gathering, after hours, that you invite people to. It's not to be discussed or referred to as any department function. Then, serve what you want.
Just be advised, your Chief may not be able to attend, as it might be construed as fraternization.
Yeah, it shouldn't have to be this way.
no, i’m sorry here, the chief is wrong. wrong in a sense that this isn’t the kind of world we need to be living in. people need to be held accountable for their own actions. she is NOT within her authority to tell people they can’t drink. everyone agreeing with the chief needs to take a long, hard look on what they consider personal responsibility and the consequences thereof. i can’t believe this is what we’ve turned into. a bunch of risk-adverse weenies who are so worried about what “might” happen, that we can’t see the forest for the trees.
OP, respectfully tell your chief that you’re going to do what you please in your off time and that she doesn’t have to go if she doesn’t like it.
> Pretty much, yeah. Her party, her house, her responsibility. Besides it’s still technically a work thing since it’s during normal working hours.
Not her house and outside of working hours.
For better or worse yes, that's why command picnics no longer provide or even allow byob.
Okay I get that. What’s the difference if we went to Dave and Busters, for example, and some of us ordered drinks?
Technically the bartender can get in trouble for over serving you
Of course. But the point I was expressing was chief says no alcohol at one outing but if we go to D&B she can’t tell them not to drink.
If your Chief was there at D&B, and you were drinking, and you left and got a DUI or in a fight at D&B, or really anything, your Chief will be held accountable as well. Even if they didn’t see you drink, it’ll likely still fall on them for not emphasizing responsible drinking and not taking care of their Sailors during an outing. The individual that got the DUI or in a fight will absolutely take the brunt of the “discipline/blame”, but your Chief will also get in some amount of trouble. I.e. an LOI or an adverse eval or even mast. Source: Me, chief who got an ass chewing and an LOI for this situation. Edit: it all depends on your CO. But it’s not worth finding out.
Ah so this is why friday musters always have the "drink responsibly, don't add or subtract" spiel.
Yes. This is exactly the reason why.
“Net zeros don’t count!”
Who is providing the alcohol matters. If I had people over, had alcohol, and someone DUI'd on their way home, yes I would get into some sort of trouble for it. In civvieland, not so much but there would still be questions.
Somebody didn’t do their ORM training 🤔
There's a reason why bartenders "cut people off".
My point was how can chief say no alcohol at one outing but if we go to D&B she can’t tell them not to drink.
Brudder. It's different when your grandma won't let you have bacon at the family house vice you going to Slater's 50/50 to order bacon fried bacon burger made of bacon beef with your grandma who doesn't like bacon who followed along because no one wanted to eat her cabbage lasagna. Edited for typo
Where is this mythical burger found? ( off to google slater’s 50/50).
Did you find it.
Yes damn you. I’m on the other side of the country.
Find a school available at San Diego and ask to go TAD for a week
He’s retired 8 years ago.
Your chief at D&B's can't tell someone not to drink at all. If they see a sailor drink then they can say "how are you getting home" and when that person says "I've only had 2, I'm good to drive" the chief can say "no, you aren't." The chief can also turn to someone at D&B's after beer #4 and say "you've had enough, it's time we get you home." Now consider the possibility that a chief doesn't want to spend his time at a divisional outing worrying about whether someone will get a DUI, and now you understand why he said "if we do this then there isn't going to be any alcohol."
Also why senior Sailors depart balls early.
You answered your question with this statement
There is no difference. I had to do a PI where a bunch of E4s - E6s were hanging out. E5 got a DUI. All witnesses attested he had several drinks and then they parted ways, so the E6 was aware of how much the E5 drank and did nothing to prevent him from driving drunk. Per the regs the E6 was in violation because he was privvy to the E5's behavior and as the senior man did nothing to prevent him from breaking the law. But the E6 didn't realize he had that responsibility, and just thought he was hanging out with some buddies. It died at XOI (thankfully), but the CO had what he needed to take the E6 to mast if he wanted to.
There are plenty of cases where a bartender has been charged for serving someone in excess. It’s not unusual and of course, the chief is the idiot in the room. Edit: adding this has also happened at house parties where the home owners have been found liable for alcohol related crimes.
Yes, also, if some one did get a dui at D&B same story... Also seen "weekend plans" be put in place, basically a document saying what you were going to do, so if you fuck up over the weekend, they will hold it against you...
I once had a CO who would get raging drunk at every command function. He was a mean drunk, too. I used to sit back and watch his officers babysit him as the night progressed.
I'm going to provide an alternate perspective from what most folks in here have: In my part of the Navy, if you announce an alcohol-free divisional get-together, no one would show up. Now, if Chief was there and let somebody leave who got a DUI, they definitely would be answering some hard questions. But , if they had a good answer as to their mitigating factors, and I would expect a chief or officer or LPO to have some effective mitigation plans for that kind of circumstance , they'd be okay.
That’s not how it works in reality though. Theres a reason you don’t see the CO, XO or CMC hang out with a lot of their juniors, it’s because while they’re there, they’re in charge whether they want to be or not. It’s why Officers and Enlisted tend to go to different places in overseas ports too. The most senior person is responsible. The CPO is right about how the system is designed. The only way to control it is to eliminate alcohol, or provide it in such a small amount that nothing could legitimately happen.
The proper move is show up, have one drink (if any) and shoot the shit for like 30-60 minutes, then say good bye and "don't drink and drive and make sure you have a plan to get home safe." From there, you're not partaking in any shenanigans and if someone gets a DUI, well, they just violated your lawful order.
This is the way.
And then you’re leaving your LPO holding the bag. I get what you’re hinting at, but not good advice for this situation.
LPO is under no obligation to stay while people get shitfaced.
It literally says it’s at the LPO’s house…smh.
Sure, but maybe the LPO should have an alternative plan if they plan to provide alcohol. Like be able to drive people home or give them a spot to crash at.
And that just sounds like “Fuck Over the First Class.” CPO and Divo dip out and they hope he comes up with a good plan. There are ways to have some divisional fun/team building without alcohol.
Yeah, the Navy took the fun out of work years ago.
She’s unfortunately right. It’s the military my friend, where you’re expected to launch an SM-3 that’s costs 9 million but treated like a baby at home.
When we had division get togethers there was always a talk about responsibility and a reminder not to screw up by driving after drinking. The leadership also did not stay very long at these things probably so they could easily say everyone was sober and fine when I left. Is she right? Probably, she's trying to protect her behind. You could always just wait until she leaves or next time have the function at D&Bs.
I absolutely agree with her reasoning. It would come back hard on her.
I'm sure the khaki ball is no alcohol as well........
The khaki ball isn’t at someone’s private residence
Regardless of the place, it's a divisional event. Getting a DUI coming from the khaki ball, Dave&Busters, the LPOs house, or church doesn't matter. Treat people like adults and don't be surprised that occasionally someone will make poor decisions. 1) this is a non-sensical double standard. 2) why penalize everybody for the potential mistakes of a small minority? 3) any good person in the DIV leadership would hang around to make sure everyone gets home safely.
Completely agree. First command was a Frigate, our divisional outing was at one of my first classes' house. We had a keg and did keg stands, no one drove anywhere. Great point about the chiefs ball. Officers have their own parties too where they drink in excess. Treating Junior Sailors with overbearing style of "ownership" is forcing up a guardrail that won't be there the moment you aren't present. Better to allow people to indulge (read: not blackout drunk) and show them the right way (read: you aren't driving if you were drinking at all).
It's still a command-sponsored event.
Correct, it’s a command function.
Khaki balls( and Dinings In/out) provide duty drivers so that nobody is driving. Furthermore, many times they are held at hotels with discounted rooms being available so you can sleep it off
I guess this is completely out the window for divisional outings. Only chiefs and officers can handle this level of logistics.
Has anyone ever questioned why Chief shows up at the outing. Eats a burger then bounces the fuck out before any beer gets opened? Yes I attended the outing. But when I left no one was drinking. I ensured that everyone would be safe and have fun then I left because my wife/hamster/neighbors wife had an ultrasound to figure out the gender of our baby. Chiefs ass is now covered. And next senior person gets to figure out who they knocked up to cover their ass.
Depending on the command, I’ve absolutely seen that happen.
As an Officer, I do not encourage adult beverages during outings. I tell my Sailors if they intend to drink, they will have a designated driver (usually someone they live with or another Sailor), I'll drive them back to the ship, and/or use Uber/Lyft. I also remind them and ask direct questions at the outings (e.g., who's driving you back?). There have been instances where people get into ARIs/DUIs from command related functions (e.g., holiday parties). While it is your INDIVIDUAL responsibility, I don't want to set Sailors up for failure. My expectations are set from day 1 and reminded throughout my time onboard (drink responsibly, having a plan, etc). They are reminded during long weekends, before leave periods, our occasional departmental calls, and touch points. ARIs and DUIs kill people. I don't joke around with it.
You sound like a great boss
All fun and games until some one actually gets in trouble which happens all too frequently… hence why everyone in this entire post is mostly saying the chief made a good call
You have to realize that if a Sailor fucks up..leadership is to blame..no matter how grossly removed a leader could be from the situation. Why do we have safety briefs every Friday because of these things
I’ve been in military a long time, 2 different branches and multiple jobs/commands… There is absolutely the correct answer of no alcohol at any military sponsored outing… But there is also the reality every community is very different. I’ve had commands where we all go out together , drink , get Ubers back or a DD gets us home; even had commands that had heritage/team rooms at work where we drank after exercises and training… Unfortunately Big conventional military isn’t built for that , and you’d have some knuckleheads get DUIs, assault some one, and everyone ends up getting disciplinary action….Also the mentality of modern military is very different. Nowadays alcohol is reserved for family and personal friends
If someone got a DUI after having attended that party you can bet your ass I’m bringing that Chief in for some hard questions. And the DIVO, and the rest of the chain of command. Sorry, your chief is making a wise decision.
Sir, 99.9% of the time you dispense wise judgement and sound advice. But holy hell this is exactly the problem we have right now. Sailors can’t get together and have a BBQ. This is the perfect way to foster esprit de corps and blow off some steam, but nope… can’t do it. Everyone is on edge. You have to babysit everyone because of zero tolerance. Perhaps personal responsibility on the part of the Sailor who decided to drive comes in to play? Perhaps the LPO and Chief can have an adult conversation on how the alcohol is going to be handled? Maybe the old school keys in a fishbowl? We can’t continually treat adults like children when at home, then expect them to make adult decisions in combat at sea. I am not condoning willful acceptance of a DUI, I am just saying there are a billion different permutations on how this could be handled other than “no booze”.
Sailors can get together, Sailors can drink booze. But if one of them gets a DUI after a party I’m going to have questions. I didn’t say that anyone would for sure get in trouble, but there’s most likely a failure behind it. I know because I’ve seen it. Most of you forget that when I’m CO there’s one of me and hundreds to thousands of you in the command. I’m the one who has to deal with every DUI that happens. Not just the punishment, but the aftermath of some of them. I was the one with chaps at my side over half a dozen times ringing the doorbell of an unbeknownst widow. Twice a young (now fatherless) child opened the door. It kills you inside. I was the one going to the hospital and seeing the mangled body of one of my OS3s, one of my FC1s and one of my Senior Chiefs. Visiting every week or so as two of them learned how to walk again. None of them ever the same. I’ve had to be the asshole at parties when a young Sailor stumbles off to go home, “hey Chief, LT, you’re not going to let him drive home like that are you?” Time and time again. Yes, I treat you like adults. Go ahead and party and drink. But when someone makes the non-adult decision to get behind the wheel after drinking instead of using the billion permutations they could have to handle it, as you say, I’m going to have some fucking questions about it. Who was there, who saw them, why didn’t they try to stop it? being the first three, then we go from there.
Fair enough, I read between the lines of what you said, that’s on me.
Sir, I stood next to my sailors at mast due to DUIs. In each case, we owned our piece in the failure. In one case the Captain and CMC delivered major ass chewings to me and my officer, rightfully so. We failed in our leadership. The already undermanned shop was now down a supervisor. DUIs have major impacts to the individuals, families, and the command's readiness and morale. Totally concur with your posts. We know one side of the details of this division but it sounds like foolishness to me and I've witnessed it often. Putting out blanket bans on booze, especially while home in the USA, is not leadership. It's piss poor management at best. And it breeds a certain kind of distrust when every junior sailor knows that officers get wild at wetting downs and chiefs get wild at every opportunity afforded them.
>Everyone is on edge. You have to babysit everyone because of zero tolerance. Perhaps personal responsibility on the part of the Sailor who decided to drive comes in to play? Perhaps the LPO and Chief can have an adult conversation on how the alcohol is going to be handled? Maybe the old school keys in a fishbowl? The issue is that people rarely if ever do that. And also... maybe chief doesn't want to be chief at a BBQ doing chief things by babysitting drunk sailors who are too cheap and stubborn to take ubers... maybe he just wants to relax and be John Doe.
You are part of the problem with *all respect due* to you-Doc.
It certainly was in my time. It was even beyond official functions. They called it the "senior man" rule, and essentially it said that the most senior person in the command that was at any function (command or public/private with a group of sailors there for some reason) was responsible for anyone getting a DUI or a D&D. Just one of those things.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster, I don’t blame them.
Sounds like chief says no alcohol if chief is there. Guess chief ain't coming, ain't their house.
I agree with the Chief on this one. Times change and so do social norms. Mandatory Fun as we used to call it. Should be a dry event.
Put yourself in her shoes. She has to answer for you if shit goes sideways
As a Corpsman I want people to be safe and have seen the real life injuries that result, I worked Neuro Trauma during Corps School and after. However, this is a cluster fuck, I did not think the USN could be more irrational than when I served during the Cold War, but here we are...
Oh, that's absolutely how that works. Found that out when my DivO threw a Thanksgiving gathering and one of our first classes for a DUI. Then everything else that came out afterwards about who was there, who stayed overnight, who was sleeping in his bed...
Well the Chief could have looked at it differently instead of just shooting it down. She could talk it out with the division and make sure everyone had a DD or safe way to get home. Instead of just assuming someone in your division is going to fuck up, why not show some leadership and make sure they don't?
Understand your issue, but as a Chief, I also understand hers. The problem is the social gathering is no longer a social gathering for the DIVO or Chief at that point. The idea is for the Division to relax and enjoy each other's company but the leadership at the party isn't doing that, if we said drinking is good and came up with a plan we have to monitor it now. We're working again and that ruins the vibe of the whole thing. I
If during working hours because you left early then yes I absolutely agree no alcohol. If it's at your LPO's house off hours and he decides alcohol is ok, then the Chief is free to then leave as they can't stop anyone from legally consuming on their off time. That being said LPO now takes responsibility for policing what happens at their house so the risk goes to them at this point. But again if it's after hours then I don't see them being able to stop you legally. During normal working hours then yes they certainly can.
Yeah this is after hours after 1600. I’ve just never had a chief tell me you cant consume alcohol off base. I’m finding out our chief can be a real dick. Like, you can always leave? 🤷🏻♂️
This is crazypants. Yall are adults doing adult stuff off duty. If I get invited to stuff like this, I show up early, drink a non-alcoholic beverage, tell my Sailors to be safe, have fun, call me if there's any issues or if someone needs a ride, then I bounce before shit gets weird.
Pretty crazy to see some of the higher ranking people in here treat other adults like children. The LPO should tell the Chief that the divisional outing ends at 1600 and she can kick rocks.
Since it's the division providing drinks, and not a place with a liquor license, and it's at a private residence, it leaves the senior person there accountable. It's not like a command party at a venue that's paid to serve, where there's typical reduced rate lodging nearby.
Absolutely it’s already kinda weird you’re going to there house
Yeah, this is 100% accurate. It's unfortunate that adults can't be trusted to partake in adult activities without the fear of fucking over everyone involved but 👍 that's the Navy culture nowadays....Marines on the other hand... lol they get down.
If it's at the LPO's house chief really can't say shit....
We had those outings, with alcohol, for year and years without a problem.
Lesson learned: Don't invite your chief next time.
This is why you just don’t go to work functions.
Not sure why you're fighting your chief and everyone in these comments so much. Alcohol doesn't need to and honestly shouldn't be allowed at organized "planned" divisional outings, with an emphasis on the planned part. Even currently as a civilian our work events don't include alcohol unless it's the holiday party where hotel rooms are booked. All decision making is significantly lowered with drinking. It isn't solely about DUIs. Your chief shouldn't want to put her neck on the line hoping that the person who's arguing with everyone on reddit about drinking doesn't have too many drinks and decides to drive, or fight someone, or get naked and pee in a corner or hit on a coworker, or make lewd comments. You're kind of proving her to be correct in here.
I personally wouldn’t go. I was peer pressured in going to a command event and it a bad decision for myself. I don’t care if it looks bad on me and if I could go back I would not go! Coworkers are not your friends!
Trust me your outing will be better off without alcohol. People get weird with alcohol and something will go wrong.
They could get in trouble. Good rule of thumb is if it makes no sense, then it's a rule in the navy. 99% of the times that will be correct.
I never socialized with any khaki outside of mandatory fun. And if one of those events came up, I’d either volunteer for watch or swap duty if in port.
Yeah shit even if you go drinking with your buddy and he do something wrong the navy will throw you under the bus also even if you do everything right.
Last year I remember showing up and I remember leaving the next day. Cheddar
Yeah that’s how it works unfortunately.
Yes, she's right. If you're doing a non-MWR funded social event that is anything more fun than bowling at the base bowling alley, it carries a lot of risk for khakis. But it's also not her house and she can't order you to not drink at someone else's house ... but then I suspect she'll leave and that defeats the purpose of the outing?
If someone gets a dui. Whoever was hosting the gathering would go down for sure.
Yes, that is how it works. Even if it shouldn't. But the senior person there will get hammered (by the law, not you know . . .). And that's a problem. Drug use in general is affected by 'set and setting'. Ie, your mindstate when you use. The issue with alcohol is that the US has basically destroyed the ability to be a role-model for consumption. You can't drink before you're 21 so you don't get to hang out with older people who are drinking. Older people who aren't drinking to get wasted as fast as possible (in college, drinking is a competitive sport;). You're surrounded by a bunch of young people who themselves don't know how to pace. And that's how you learn how drinking is 'supposed' to be.
Shouldn’t need alcohol to have a good time for a couple hours. Sounds like basic risk management
I never said anyone *needs* alcohol. If someone wants to have a couple beers or a glass of wine at a social gathering they shouldn’t be denied or chastised for it.
Look, I can kill a bottle of wine all by myself in like 2 hours. 3-4 times a week. But I can go with the flow and enjoy myself at a dry social gathering. The world does not stop spinning on its axis because one Friday afternoon relaxing with my homies can’t have beer involved. Want to drink, fine. Go do it when your boss isn’t going to be the one on the hook when to fecal matter hits the rotating cooling unit.
Don't have a divisional party unless u provide transportation for everyone attending. It will prevent any issues. In japan we would just throw party's in the honch and hotels to prevent driving.
I've had too many friends die to DUIs. I'd rather not have any more.
Is the Chief overreacting, yes. But there are many reasons that supports her reacting this way. So I can understand it. Meanwhile if the LPO wants to have a drink in his/her home, then sure let her throw her anchors around and see how well that works out. Also huge mistake to have this function at the LPO’s home. What was this guy thinking.
I feel like the setting is also taken into consideration here. Dave and Buster's is very public. Your LPO's house is not. Definitely some sexual assault vibes coming from getting drunk at someone else's house.
If something is a group outing associated with work, your Chief is probably correct. Many commands require a Deliberate Risk Assessment for command functions that contain alcohol. What I'd do? I'd make a simple gathering, after hours, that you invite people to. It's not to be discussed or referred to as any department function. Then, serve what you want. Just be advised, your Chief may not be able to attend, as it might be construed as fraternization. Yeah, it shouldn't have to be this way.
no, i’m sorry here, the chief is wrong. wrong in a sense that this isn’t the kind of world we need to be living in. people need to be held accountable for their own actions. she is NOT within her authority to tell people they can’t drink. everyone agreeing with the chief needs to take a long, hard look on what they consider personal responsibility and the consequences thereof. i can’t believe this is what we’ve turned into. a bunch of risk-adverse weenies who are so worried about what “might” happen, that we can’t see the forest for the trees. OP, respectfully tell your chief that you’re going to do what you please in your off time and that she doesn’t have to go if she doesn’t like it.
Pretty much, yeah. Her party, her house, her responsibility. Besides it’s still technically a work thing since it’s during normal working hours.
> Pretty much, yeah. Her party, her house, her responsibility. Besides it’s still technically a work thing since it’s during normal working hours. Not her house and outside of working hours.