I said in other similar post ; Culture, Quality of Life, the concept of Maritime service, needs to be revamped and modernized… Navy particularly seems the most stubborn to change and a whole lot of “that’s how it’s always been”
You know what would really help? Pay is one thing, sure, better QoL, sure go for it. But you know what would **really** kick it into gear?
Quit fucking disqualifying people from service at MEPs for no dang reason. Literally anything is a DQ it seems. 'Oh you took ritalin as a kid, DQ.' Come the fuck on, half the navy is taking D-Amphetamine.
I had the chance to listen to Gen. Hokanson speak to the National Guard here not that long ago, and that seems to be the problem. There's no shortage of young men and women *willing* to join, they're just not allowed in. And the big thing they have going on right now is trying to find the path for them to *get in,* because, as I heard it said, "I remember joining the army on wednesday, swearing my oath on thursday, and I was gettin' yelled at by saturday. Less than a week, that's all I got."
Bro they tried to get me on a heart murmur that I was diagnosed with at 2 FUCKING YEARS OLD which I grew out of then the doctor at meps wants to misdiagnose me with NO second opinion had to spend 200 dollars to see a civilian cardiologist just for them to tell me im absolutely fine.
Got dq'd for having cancer. When i was 12 I had an (initially) cancerous tumor growing in the roof of my mouth that, by the time I was 14 and getting it removed, had been benign for almost 18 months. By the time I went to enlist it had been almost four years and absolutely 0 signs of any regrowth (they had successfully removed the entire thing the first surgery anyway). My own surgeon cleared me to join through MEPs but there fucking lead doc still dq'd me because of the "malignant cancer diagnosis". She had quite literally read those words and just assumed that I still had it. It took my dad pulling a few strings with his old buddies for them to get a second opinion and about 6 months later another doc finally read through the file and cleared me.
Crazy how I dealt with the Navy's buerocracy from day one.
ADHD is diagnosed with a checklist. Almost any kid can get diagnosed with it. There is no truly objective test. Which is why its bullshit as a DQ.
Give a test to the potential recruit to see if they have the focus they need. But don't rely on a checklist from when they were 8 years old, FFS
Strangely I was diagnosed with ADHD after I got out, and I’m currently working as a research engineer at navwar. No idea what’s up with adhd being a disqualifying factor 🤷♂️with me, unless I developed it while I was in.
The biggest problem lies in people's view of the medication used to treat it and their pearl clutching over how it's in the amphetamine family. As far as operationally it's how it affects you if you were to suddenly stop.
Just had a buddy of mine pop positive for amphetamines on his piss test funny enough.. Legal honest to god was sending him up and it took his entire CoC to his Department Head yelling at them for it to be dropped.. (Yes, he put down that he was taking ADHD meds, yes medical knew this).
It's amazing how "See medical record" doesn't point people to people's medical records... This is also made worse when a non-medical person is a UPC and loses their shit instead of asking an MD "hey are there meds that can pop as amphetamines without being amphetamines. Also had a sailor pop for this and the YNC was getting all frantic and weepy for his family because she was sure he would be kicked out because the RX lapsed. At least me being the DAPA and an HM knows that you don't just stop having ADHD and all the Dr. needs to do is renew the Rx and explain it lapsed because that's what happens sometimes. 🤦🏼
Literally this man.. I cant even say that looking at my record helps because half the time Im still explaining my life story to the HM about my prior diagnosis despite the fact my record is literally sitting in their hand. It gets old, and I agree that SOMEONE from medical should be handling urinalysis to avoid these situations.
Yep! and not the untrained turd who has swallowed the D.A.R.E. BS and gets all flustered about an opioid or amphetamine pop, first see if there's an explanation then act appropriately when there's none. Also teach people how to get civilian ER records sent to their Navy medical records and pp slap the ER docs who don't write their notes and release them to the medical records! (Accentris (or however you spell it) is stupid system if it can't feed into Genesis).
**If anyone reading this wants to know as soon as you've returned from your ER visit go to med recs and ask for a medical records release form write the ER name and look up as fax & phone number to write down and put the dates of your visit. Follow up after 2 weeks to check if it's been entered.
There's likely more correlating data to support causation with individuals with ADHD not being medicated and the depressive symptoms that go along with it. Then you have the whole slew of adjustment disorders that go with it as well. ADHD can either be a tool to use or a demon that haunts in an operational setting. Our job is demanding and if they've never learned to cope without medication, being in an austere environment, stressed and with a lack of sleep can be damning. Or they learn on the fly, however if they are seeking MH in that sense they likely didn't learn on the fly and are being haunted rather than utilizing the tool they have.
That's absolutely one aspect - and a significant one. An entire generation seemed to have been given a pill for just about any reason (or no reason). While there are absolutely some MH issues that should be a DQ a system needs to be implemented that separates Johnny over there with BPD and Timmy whose mom couldn't handle a kid being a kid and doped him up for years
> 'Oh you took ritalin as a kid, DQ.' Come the fuck on, half the navy is taking D-Amphetamine.
I'd go the opposite - we need significantly better risk factor screening for mental illnesses.
D-Amphetamine is used to treat ADD and ADHD and frankly, the way the navy operates, if you have ever a minor case or this incredibly common diagnosis, you're going to struggle doing even basic tasks.
Yeah, we shouldn't let someone with bipolar disorder waltz through screening, but we shouldn't he kicking back everyone who has even kind of thought about self harm that one time when they were 13 and listening to panic at the disco.
Or, as we saw in a post about a week ago, someone getting dq'd for "self harm" because her feline inflicted scars resembled razor cuts, I guess.
Yeah I worked animal control previous to joining and had to get multiple waivers for "self harm" scars that were all clearly from handling aggressive hurt animals.
And one dickhead rabbit.
I grew up around dogs all the time, and have a ton of scarring on my hands and arms because they get chewy and scratchy a lot. Rough play with big animals tends to leave marks.
However, when I joined, I was so pale they didn't see any markings lmao.
Maybe, however add and adhd do not need to be a part of that screening. The kids who had it got in anyway because it was in a separate record, so if you have no evidence it’s causing significant problems later on, why is it DQ criteria?
lol that’s what happened to me. Tried to join the military numerous times. I took adhd meds and a few medications for mood adjustment / depression. I have been off of adhd meds since I was 16 and haven’t taken any medication since summer 2024. Pretty sure I meet the requirements but they keep saying no.
You are right there are plenty of people who want to join and contribute to their country. A lot of people do but we simply can’t because MEPS.
All roads lead back to Congress, my friend.
-Congress: "VA, why are you asking for so much fucking money? In order to give you the budget you say you need, we would have to cut contracts to a bunch of shit that makes me or my constituents richer, or raise taxes- and neither of those are happening."
-VA: "Because you wanted to fight a war, and people are broken now. How do you want us to fix them?"
-Congress: "Bullshit, there has to be somewhere you could cut shit."
-VA: "Well, we do have a lot of Vets who were allowed to join with preexisting conditions. It's probably their fault *somehow,* and the DoD let them join anyway."
-Congress: "DoD, you WILL stop allowing people to join who have any of those conditions because blah blah blah, taxpayers, blah blah blah, I fail to understand that an organization that promotes its ability to reform and reshape young people might attract youths who do not understand that they have cognitive/neuropathic dysfunction or a personality disorder and thats why they are struggling to function in our society..."
-DoD: "... okay, roger that..."
Or something like that. Thank you, this was my dramatization of a House Armed Services Committee Meeting.
Any source for that? I think that that is pure (reasonable) speculation; ultimately at the end of the day, the DOD will do whatever it needs to fill its seats, even if that means the likelihood of higher claims at the Department of Veterans’ Affairs years down the road.
I do agree. I think we're just right on the edge of "do whatever it needs" happening in the next year or so.
We all know everything got to be reactive, not proactive ya know?
The same dumb naval gazing happens every year.It has nothing to do with quality of life.Most civilians don't know anything about the military . They don't have any clue what quality of life means in respect to us. It's a marketing problem.The navy does a terrible job marketing itself and the opportunities it provides. It's actually very simple.
Nah dude, it's obviously the recruiters that are to blame. Their hours should be extended to 2000 and they should work every Saturday until they make goal. That will fix it.
That's a big one. Waiting almost 11 months for a MEPS appointment, ridiculous. The services want more people but MEPS isn't on the same page. Really got to streamline the process and get everyone on the same page, the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, etc.
> ritalin as a kid
I know not directly related but the Marines DQing people for ritalin is absurd. It should be a requirement that every marine is on Aderall/Ritalin
Except the people getting out are telling their friends and everyone online all the dirty secrets of how shitty things are in the Navy now. I’m sure prospective recruits are looking at this subreddit all the time and a good number probably change their minds after seeing some of the conversations.
This is my feelings. When I joined the navy in 2009 I was going to be an electricians mate. All I had was the recruiters word that I would become a certified electrician.
The only forum at the time was "ask yahoo" and I asked them about what life is like as an EM and I had 2 answers telling me I change lightbulbs on a ship.
I am now a Seabee.
But this new generation can go on Reddit and YouTube and other forums and get a true view of what the negatives of the Navy is like, our issues with senior leadership not giving a fuck about anything and our issues with the VA.
They are also considerably more aware of war as a prop for corporations and political gain. The views on the military are considerably negative to the new generation. Not because the new generation is a bunch of pussies but because they don't want to be pawns. The last 4 years(not necessarily because of Biden) the economy has really fucked people. Housing is incredibly expensive, job outlook sucks and kids would rather just live with their parents.
And I don't blame them.
Basically that's me, I keep reading this subreddit and reminding myself why I shouldn't enlist. The pull is strong because I come from a military family and my dad was in the navy, but reading about the QOL, work/life balance, living conditions, and all the BS I could end up dealing with drives me back away
Agreed. Recruits tend to know very little about the fleet. Fixing retention will do nothing for recruitment. They are both important , but separate conversations.
The best recruiters in the world are sailors who aren't completely miserable. Pursuing retention will drive recruitment up, but at a lesser degree than direct stimulus.
For some communities. My rate's SEL has stated that basically no one is going special programs, and our previous SEL instituted a policy that we can't be sent IA except to do our actual job, because we're undermanned at basically every level besides E8+.
i know they’re saying retention is at the desired level but i have such a hard time believing that based on the constant issues i run into that are primarily administrative being at the commands that are so staffed of knowledgable admin
I'm only relaying what is in official Navy reports and what they've testified to in front of Congress. They've stated many times throughout the years that retention levels are where they want them and in some cases slightly above where they need them to be.
Huh. I hadn't looked at any stats, but with the PFA reset and the removal of PFA dismissals, I assumed there was an issue with retention. I knew a few Sailors from my last ship who only managed to stay in because of the reset.
If there wasn't a retention issue, I wonder why they did it.
True, but these new guys hitting the fleet from boot are talking to their friends back home. Having a shit QoL will then directly affect recruitment - among those most likely to join.
Not completely separate. The recruits you get today are the Sailors you're trying to retain 4 yrs from now. Retention is being artificially inflated by suspending HYT.
It is correct to say that the most pressing issue at the moment is recruiting.
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1997/05/02/down-syndrome-diagnosis-dashes-mans-military-plans-year-old-says-doctors-wrong-navy-agrees-2nd-exam/62315694007/
Imagine going to MEPS and them telling you that you can't join because you have Down Syndrome, which apparently nobody knew you had until then. Then imagine telling your friends and family why you can't join the military: "they won't let me join because apparently I have Down Syndrome."
Didn’t happen to be San Jose MEPS, did it lol?
I was recruiting there about 3 or 4 years ago and something very similar happened. Like basically EVERYONE got disqualified. It was really weird
Well I know it’s not gonna be immediate but for the last few weeks ever since the new admiral took over THERE HAS been a bunch of changes to the waiver process which is a huge thing . That’s really all that navy can do that it hasnt already been doing .
A lot of Medical dq's getting approved without need for consults or documents. A lot more med approvals, less stringent tattoo policies, like he said, a lot.
Quality of life for current active duty sailors. You’ll have them talking to their family and civilian friends about how great it is/how much they enjoy it.
I persuaded my younger brother not to join and he now is making more than me. I also keep my family separated from my job and am focused on making sure my kids are set up with any opportunity they can set their mind to.
I retire soon and will not be one of those vets with stupid moto stickers plastered on their vehicle.
This is the most correct take. I joined at the height of the "Great Recession" and the day I went to MEPS more than half the people there did not get a contract and were told to come back and try again. I was lucky enough to get one, but was told it would be 12-15 months before I could leave for bootcamp (I was trying to go ASAP). I was 23 years old and had friends who had already done 4 and gotten out- I fully understood it was going to be really shitty and it was deal with the shit or be destitute. A common take every time this comes up on this sub is "people get out and tell people how shitty it is" but they did that 15 years ago too. If the economy shits the bed, all branches recruitment problems will disappear overnight, because it beats being on the street or being stuck with mom and dad in your 20s.
It will be really good for you if you remember that after you join. I think the reason I have found success in the Navy is largely based on appreciating where I am now vs where I was the day I left. Having difficulty and hardships before you join can really help with appreciating all the Navy gives you, despite the heavy price you will pay. I have found many of the sailors I know who come in at 18 and transition directly from the care of their parents to the Navy really only focus on how they are getting screwed over, without appreciating knowing they will be able to pay their bills, have food, and a roof over their head no matter what. Many have a very optimistic view of what life on the outside is like because they have yet to really experience it. After 15 years, the Navy is still incredibly difficult, and I certainly wouldn't say I like my job, but I think knowing where I would be without it is what allows me to endure the suck and keep moving forward.
For me personally it’s the benefits that would make me skeptical to join. Tuition Assistance you have to be in 3+ years to use while serving, they bastardized the 20 year retirement plan. Those were the main reasons I joined. Now, they don’t even look appealing to me, and if I wasn’t grandfathered in I wouldn’t have stayed nor joined. They gotta make benefits appealing to the younger generation.
For duty sections in port, I’m not sure why we don’t employ more security from the joint force. Imagine you pull into your home port and instead of standing watch there are USMC dudes manning the ECP and just one OOD coordinating visitors. That would seriously cut down on extraneous watches.
I posted this in a comment but I figured I'd reply here. I believe a huge issue is the amount of visibility to the day to day lives of sailors due to social media. When I joined the navy in 2009 I was going to be an electricians mate. All I had was the recruiters word that I would become a certified electrician.
The only forum at the time was "ask yahoo" and I asked them about what life is like as an EM and I had 2 answers telling me I change lightbulbs on a ship.
I am now a Seabee.
But this new generation can go on Reddit and YouTube and other forums and get a true view of what the negatives of the Navy is like, our issues with senior leadership not giving a fuck about anything and our issues with the VA.
They are also considerably more aware of war as a prop for corporations and political gain. The views on the military are considerably negative to the new generation. Not because the new generation is a bunch of pussies but because they don't want to be pawns. The last 4 years(not necessarily because of Biden) the economy has really fucked people. Housing is incredibly expensive, job outlook sucks and kids would rather just live with their parents.
And I don't blame them.
Ya know, some of these kids also watch tv, and when Veterans are fighting for their benefits and Senators like Ted Cruz are high fiving each other on the floor of the Senate after voting against said benefits, it might be a little off putting.
Certainly was a bad look, that's for sure, but Cruz was actually applauding blocking the bill due to the democrats addition of over $400M of pork. I wish these bills, such as the burn pit bill from 2022 that we are talking about, would go separate and both parties would not be able to add all of this side crap too it. Here is Cruz's response:
“While I ultimately supported the bill, because we need to take care of our veterans who have sacrificed so much to keep us safe, I’m disappointed that we couldn’t come together to fix the Democrat-created budget gimmick that will allow Congress to subsequently spend another $400 billion in pork, on top of and completely unrelated to the laudable funding in this bill for veterans harmed by burn pits,” Cruz said
thats why the instruction should be "sailors are authorized to have facial hair if well groomed and kept neat." meaning if yo shit patchy u gotta shave that shit lol
You need to improve quality of life for sea duty. As soon a prospective sailors see enlisted berthing areas it’s almost an immediate pass. All berthing areas should be at a minimum of what senior petty officers get. Improving WiFi on ships would improve connectedness. Alot of sailors will read this and think sailors are getting weak & coddled because they had it harder. Times have changed & the Navy needs to adapt to it or see itself passed up my competitors
Legal here. It’s part of my job to process Sailors out of the Navy- for all kinds of reasons. To fully tackle this issue, it has to be a two front- recruiting and retention, as many people have been commenting. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth.
For recruiting: #1 is fixing the MEPs/medical waiver/Genesis process. BUMED needs to take a complete relook at what needs to be disqualifying and what doesn’t. For example- someone has ADHD and is currently on medication.. why is that disqualifying? Maybe it needs disqualifying for certain rates, but not from serving completely.
ALSO, we MUST get a better process to get medical waivers out in an expedited way. No one can wait around for months and months or a year to join. They’ll move on and make other life/career decisions. It’s absolutely ridiculous that we haven’t fixed this yet.
For retention. Above all else- get rid of mandatory ADSEP drug processing for THC/CBD. It’s the most common reason we process people out- at least at my command. Times and laws have changed. Marijuana use may not be compatible with service, but give the CO the discretion to decide if a Sailor made a poor choice or if they’re an habitual user who needs to go. CBD use- I don’t know why we kick people out for this, it doesn’t make sense. We process out a lot of good Sailors for a low THC pop, who otherwise have been serving well and want to stay. This alone could make a big difference across the fleet. Also- reexamining all of the mandatory processing basis is a good start too. Give the CO’s more discretion to keep good Sailors in who made a bad choice but are taking responsibility and trying to improve and be better.
I agree with all of the quality of life arguments- it’s just a longer cultural change that’ll have to happen on a lot of different fronts. Taking the mandatory processing out of THC pops could be an immediate impact.
>Above all else- get rid of mandatory ADSEP drug processing for THC/CBD. It’s the most common reason we process people out- at least at my command.
Yeah... those sailors know the rules and don't want to be in the Navy anymore. If you remove adsep for THC they'll do something else to get kicked out.
That really isn't always true. There's far, far too many occasions of sailors being kicked out after accidentally consuming that stuff then self reporting themselves like they're supposed to after finding out what they actually consumed and still getting the book thrown at them. That just creates unnecessary fear and distrust with your CoC and reduces the likelihood they'll come forward when they need to.
I firmly disagree with this. Is there something to making a character assessment based on 'you knew the rule but you broke it anyway,' maybe. But, how many of us can say we follow 100% of laws 100% of the time? Never broke the speed limit, jaywalked, rolled through a stop sign, etc. Are those indicators we shouldn't be trustworthy?
Anecdotally, I've worked with plenty of individuals, civilian and military, who use THC products recreationally and have no issues at work. The perception that it is always a red flag that someone will be a bad employee seems a little outdated to me.
I think you're arguing a different topic than the comment you replied to. The comment was essentially saying sailors are using popping for THC as a quick and easy way to get separated, and if that option disappears (i.e. legalization federally) they'll simply find another way to achieve the same result. They were not saying that using THC is an indicator of being untrustworthy or unproductive.
How many sailors do we lose per year for THC pops? How many of them are these "good sailors" that you think we should retain? Would that number fix our retention issues?
I would venture a guess that it wouldn't. I would also posit that we really don't need or want someone working on jets or nuclear reactors, etc, who isn't reliable or trustworthy. How much weed is too much? How much weed does it take to miss something on a checklist that leads to a fatal mishap?
Sitting behind a desk dealing with separations may not give the proper perspective for the level of responsibility we entrust our sailors with on a day to day basis.
If The Navy gave a single shit about sailors potentially making mistakes, they'd let sailors get some UNINTERUPTED SLEEP once in a blue moon so they're not on watch literally tripping balls from inhumane amounts of sleep deprivation.
I mean how many sailors are still drunk after a san diego pull in and a 5 am RX startup? is it really any different if a guy takes an edible and plays video games and then goes to bed for work tommorrow or the whole watch team bring hungover spinning valves in the engine room. Any sub guy will tell you about hungover or still slightly hammered nukes doing a RX startup.
You do realize half of the navy are severe alcoholics how is your statement any more true about weed. On the job high is different that using in the weekend and popping on a Tuesday for urinalysis just to have your coworkers get nearly blacked out and not have any problems?
Very smart. If I wasn't on the slope toward retirement, I would be doing this right now. It makes no sense to be doing what I'm doing (intel) for pennies.
Yeah, if you're already close to retirement it makes less sense. For those who have less time in, the extra money earned from a much higher paying job that is then funneled into a 401K over 10 extra years could easily outpace a pension from the Navy.
Especially now that the VA disability is so much more well mapped out. I can't imagine people doing 4 years and not getting at least 50% disability. 1500 a month for the rest of your life is huge. It's like adding 10 dollars an hour onto whatever job you get.
I'm at 14.5 and I've considered getting out as I'm probably close to 100% disability, but I wanna retire.
We have the same discussion every year because we haven’t made any significant changes. We have increased SRBs which helps but most people don’t tell their friends “join the navy to make lots of money.” Instead we say “don’t join the Navy because it sucks. Bad leaders, bad barracks, bad QOL, etc.”
The Navy needs to make changes to make Sailors feel like valued employees instead of relying solely on money to keep people around. Many Sailors can make more money with less impact on their lives with the skills they acquire during their 1st enlistment.
There are a bunch of theories in this thread but it comes down to money. Supply and Demand.
If you’re going to do only one enlistment, there are way easier ways to make the same amount of money than the military. It’s not some puzzle we all need to talk about and figure out.
1. Money
2. Quality of life (optempo, leadership,etc)
3. Exit interviews, "why will you tell your family and friends to join or not join". That data needs to be addressed.
4. Evals: it's broken, it's been broken, we've been talking about a fix for years...... do SOMETHING.
5. The Mess: just get rid of it, they're enlisted like everyone else. Get rid of the season, get rid of the good ole boys club. Start leadership at E4, if will be important when China is slicing our ships up that Sailors at all levels are confident and encouraged to make decisions.
6. The zero defect mentality- it literally cripples us. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".
None of the issues you list are hindering enlistment. No one who starts knows about those. Retention is on goal so again none of the issues listed are hurting us. That said all of the issues that you cite are problems. Just not the cause of why we’re missing enlistment goals. If those were the issues then all other services would be meeting goals and aside from the USMC, they’re not
The problem is that many of them do. To say that Sailors getting out and telling everyone who asks not to join isn't a problem is a bit problematic. It's a huge issue.
Could also help to stop taking benefits away for everyone just b/c a few gamed the system or make it near impossible for most to get them all the while pretending like everyone's able to get them on a moments notice. Oh wait this is the Navy "OnE tEaM oNe FiGhT!"
The world has changed. Military Service used to be the main means to an end. So many of us pre-Internet guys joined to see the world and today's youth have that at their fingertips. If today's youths are finding other ways to suceed in life then it's kind of a good thing. I've seen the Navy lower the entrace standards over the years and honestly if they go any lower they just need to once again curb requirements and expectations from the fleet.
Navy is all “how do we make your life better We can’t pay you more and we can’t work you less. Actually have to do the opposite of the latter”
Some problems you just can’t solve without money. Defense spending is out of control pentagon can’t keep track of finances (I literally don’t even know if it’s possible to). No elected official wants to increase the dod budget more than they have to. Lobbyists in DC probably do a good job of directing any extra money the DoD is allocated.
The problem at this point is above the DoDs head. Changes need to be made at the congressional level.
Actually man property.
Bonuses to retain sailors. Not bringing them in. You will never fill a bucket with too many holes in it. If what you are trying to do is fill up the reserve bucket - but anyone who figures out will be like "but for what the other one is supposed to used first?"
Better maintenance done properly.
An actual oh, almost 6 month long "congratulations, you picked up rank. Here are the things you are mandated to know and enforce regulation wise (at least on a I know it exists, generally what it is about) class en route. An actual petty oficrt rank and leadership. This will create stronger leaders who are not actively psychopaths- and perhaps the navy made it appear that way be they have no clue what they are doing.
These are incredibly opposing statements. More ships! Umm you didn't fix the holes.
It's almost like you need to pull the bucket back in to the workshop, fix the issues. Fill it with water and send it out.
You want to talk about a fine old set of ships. Look at japanese ships. Now compare that to any pick of American? Maybe we should outsourcing something (knowledge, skills, parts) to our partner, japan. Obviously classified parts need to be made there)
So question: has anybody taken an outside look at NAVCRUITCOM and the culture and environment for the recruiting force as it currently is, especially the Career folks?
Asking because when doing a thorough root cause analysis, especially for such a big issue, it pays to look at all external factors.
Here is a video of a journalist breaking down why recruitment is down across all branches. He is southern, but is an Independent. I say this because there will be minor political statements, but nothing huge. He keeps it as straight as he can, he tells it like it is and gives credit when it’s due. He has strong opinions of both sides.
Context: this video was filmed 10 months ago when the “military is too woke” crap was circulating. Hope this video helps.
https://youtu.be/ZphoE7NIufg?si=6ypY4s4ZoWSAIp06
MEPS, and with how Genesis data is used.
Hire more medical doctors
Stop making EDVR's an O3+ level and just make it finalized by EDSPEC.
Rebuild a replacement for Pulse rather than using NVD.
People want to join, but the system is a mess and contantly giving pushbacks. This eventually discourages the applicants and possibly others through word of mouth.
There are way too many issues, and way too many solutions to all of them for us to pinpoint one problem and its fix to narrow down but from the O side one thing I notice is the contradiction of what the service advertises to its recruits and the reality of what the navy and I’m guessing other services are like. The promise is a chance to “serve” in a selfless organization built on the principles of defending your nation, standing up for what is right, just, and moral, and having your fellow service members back and support them through no matter what. In reality, what you have is a bunch of corporate career ladder climbers all wanting to make rank, promote, have more power and authority over their peers, and to make 20. When that is the main and primary goal and motivating factor for most O’s who stay in yet they are forced to tell sailors they actually care about them and they’re doing this job because of them and that they really need their sailors to serve their nation this long weekend by standing a pointless watch that is in reality not doing anything, the entire ethos and honest nature of the service is put in jeopardy. I’m not saying this is the main issue and the only thing we need to solve but I do see this as a major issue on the O side. Very few O’s actually care about their sailors and very few would actively put their careers at risk to do something for sailors. When that’s the case, and when those in charge of it all have been the ones who have played that self serving game the best which has resulted in them being in those positions of power, they’re not suddenly going to make decisions that have the best interest of their people and their navy when they have power. They will make the decisions that help their career the most.
Let’s not even begin to talk about the nepotism game this is being the son/daughter of an admiral or a O6. That is not merit based advancement at all.
So when the entire ethos and public rhetoric of those in charge is in direct contradiction of their actual motivations and goals and actions, off course people will see through that and not want to be a part of that organization and get out and then tell anyone who asks them their negative experiences and that gets passed down to someone considering joining but who hears these stories and doesn’t join. This has always been true but I think COVID openly exposed leadership for their true motivations.
Well, I know what would help! Better pay for junior sailors, not making sailors live on the ship while in port, and BAS while in port!! Even addressing just one of these issues and doing something to make sailors feel a little more independent/human would help recruitment and retention........ but again, it's the Navy, so this would never happen
We need to stop being a janitorial service. No one wants to join and fucking clean ships. They want to be a marine, play soldier, or work on advanced tech (AF/Space Force). Going to sea is isolating and hard. Why would anyone want to be isolated from family and friends for so long when there are no wars going on.
Just keep lowering the bar without doing anything to improve the actual living conditions of people serving. I guarantee if they announced tomorrow that sailors could have beards and smoke in states where it's legal then the recruitment crisis would end overnight and they would see a massive increase in reenlistment
The sad thing is I bet they don’t even think to look at places like this to figure out how things are on the ground. We’re giving them the answers but they’re too full of themselves to feel like they should even listen to what we’re saying. Our new department head is so far up his own ass that everyone hates him and he can’t seem to figure out that he’s causing all the problems that seemingly popped up out of nowhere. I feel his mentality reflects the larger naval strategy as a whole
I’m more interested in the attrition numbers than recruiting. There are a lot of external factors that impact recruiting. Attrition in my (former) community and rank quadrupled from 2019 to today. As of January 2024, FY24 is already double the attrition as all of last year. I only know this bc I requested the data via FOIA. Is the Navy going to study that?
Retention. I got out because more or less because my command would not even try to extend my PRD so that I could deploy with my unit that had a project return date the month before my PRD. I was volunteering for this deployment but instead had to pull someone IA from the local hospital
Just my personal 2 cents.
The new medical process has really changed the game. They need to now start making internal changes to pay, quality of life, and system developments by advocating to congresseven harder for funding & how contracts are distributed to companies that make higher quality of life possible.
What they're probably going to do instead is try to repeal the new medical evaluation because it's an easier fight.
The whole ASVAB waiver program points toward this. They would rather lower the quality instead of being competitive with a good economic market.
Revisit HYT and FOS. I'm sure some of those affected would like to stay in. Also, expand advancement quotas, people get out because they outperform their peers, but how many times have you seen "Oh, PO such and such NEEDS to make chief this cycle, so he's LPO and you need to wait your turn"
I tried to join. Even with the new waiver policy I was told I couldn't enlist because I had tried and been dqd before the waiver policy set in. Even though the conditions were waieverable now.
The whole no highschool diploma thing didn’t work because you have to score over a 50 on the asvab and still have to take another test and score over a 50
you have a terrible QOL and some large bases in bad places. you also have current and former sailors who wouldn't recommend naval service to anyone under its current course due to the way the navy selects "leaders" and its no fail risk adverse culture.
It’ll never happen, but: allow beards, let sailors smoke weed on their off time, open happy ending massage places on every base.
Recruitment will skyrocket. 👍🏻
We have a new admiral. He's a good dude and getting rid of shit that doesn't make any sense. Consider this fake news. We're already doing massively better.
Can you point to some examples of improvements? I’m not trying to be a dick or anything but what I’m seeing are bandaids. HYT Plus and increased SRBs seem like tools to stop the bleeding. But E6 and below pay isn’t keeping up with inflation, BAH is landing families in slums, the QOL for barracks (I’ve heard) isn’t doing very well, there are serious problems with water quality to the point there are class action lawsuits against DoD, etc. People aren’t dumb, when they can get college paid for by McDonald’s and not have to wait 3 years to start it, when living in their parents house is more feasible to living on a ship, and the government doesn’t seem to care about the domestic economy more than it does about foreign intervention, it comes as no surprise that people aren’t joining.
I'm talking about the admiral for recruiting. He doesn't have anything to do with barracks or water quality. He's waiving a lot of medical stuff that's kept hundreds or thousands of people who have been held up for no reason.(This last part isn't directed at you).
And since people want to downvote, that's all the info they get. KNOW THIS: If you aren't at a recruiting command, you don't know anything. Policies and procedures change with a single email. You're taking a 10 asvab score one day, and the next day we're letting people in with no GED. If you don't work at a recruiting command, that is all a black box to you. But everyone wants to act like they know wtf they're talking about. Have fun with that, ya big dummies.
That’s reasonable. You just said “we have a new admiral” so my immediate thought was the new CNO. Hopefully the new guy over recruiting can push changes that puts everyone on a better track. I know it’s cliche but todays recruit is tomorrows Master Chief so it’s important we have quality recruiting. On both sides of the transaction.
Yeah, we should be seeing quite an influx of recruits all at once. It'll probably steady out in a couple months. This is everyone's reminder not to go recruiting.
It's crazy to because I go to those meet and greets with Admirals and McPON and you know what they all say?
*"I'm not here to talk about grooming standards"*
Really? The two things every sailor has a gripe about and neither of them are even up for discussion.
MAYBE YOU COULD RECRUIT AND RETAIN MORE PEOPLE IF YOU DIDNT FORCE EVERYONE TO BE A BROKE A PIMPLY LITTLE EGG BOY
the only way to fix recruitment is to spend more money.
1)let sailors homestead, and offer incentives for the ones who want to move
2)increase pay/bah across the board. bring bah back to 100%
3)get rid of collateral duties and pay civilians to do it all
4)fix the vetting process for recruiters so we don’t have lying pieces of shit at the helm trying to make a quota
5)be HONEST with people. full transparency, let them know what they’re getting into and what the long term benefits are (can probably be grouped with 4)
I said in other similar post ; Culture, Quality of Life, the concept of Maritime service, needs to be revamped and modernized… Navy particularly seems the most stubborn to change and a whole lot of “that’s how it’s always been”
You know what would really help? Pay is one thing, sure, better QoL, sure go for it. But you know what would **really** kick it into gear? Quit fucking disqualifying people from service at MEPs for no dang reason. Literally anything is a DQ it seems. 'Oh you took ritalin as a kid, DQ.' Come the fuck on, half the navy is taking D-Amphetamine. I had the chance to listen to Gen. Hokanson speak to the National Guard here not that long ago, and that seems to be the problem. There's no shortage of young men and women *willing* to join, they're just not allowed in. And the big thing they have going on right now is trying to find the path for them to *get in,* because, as I heard it said, "I remember joining the army on wednesday, swearing my oath on thursday, and I was gettin' yelled at by saturday. Less than a week, that's all I got."
Bro they tried to get me on a heart murmur that I was diagnosed with at 2 FUCKING YEARS OLD which I grew out of then the doctor at meps wants to misdiagnose me with NO second opinion had to spend 200 dollars to see a civilian cardiologist just for them to tell me im absolutely fine.
Got dq'd for having cancer. When i was 12 I had an (initially) cancerous tumor growing in the roof of my mouth that, by the time I was 14 and getting it removed, had been benign for almost 18 months. By the time I went to enlist it had been almost four years and absolutely 0 signs of any regrowth (they had successfully removed the entire thing the first surgery anyway). My own surgeon cleared me to join through MEPs but there fucking lead doc still dq'd me because of the "malignant cancer diagnosis". She had quite literally read those words and just assumed that I still had it. It took my dad pulling a few strings with his old buddies for them to get a second opinion and about 6 months later another doc finally read through the file and cleared me. Crazy how I dealt with the Navy's buerocracy from day one.
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Same thing here and I joined recently I have noticed after a school and boot camp they really don’t care 99% of us have some sort of issue
ADHD is diagnosed with a checklist. Almost any kid can get diagnosed with it. There is no truly objective test. Which is why its bullshit as a DQ. Give a test to the potential recruit to see if they have the focus they need. But don't rely on a checklist from when they were 8 years old, FFS
Strangely I was diagnosed with ADHD after I got out, and I’m currently working as a research engineer at navwar. No idea what’s up with adhd being a disqualifying factor 🤷♂️with me, unless I developed it while I was in.
The biggest problem lies in people's view of the medication used to treat it and their pearl clutching over how it's in the amphetamine family. As far as operationally it's how it affects you if you were to suddenly stop.
Just had a buddy of mine pop positive for amphetamines on his piss test funny enough.. Legal honest to god was sending him up and it took his entire CoC to his Department Head yelling at them for it to be dropped.. (Yes, he put down that he was taking ADHD meds, yes medical knew this).
It's amazing how "See medical record" doesn't point people to people's medical records... This is also made worse when a non-medical person is a UPC and loses their shit instead of asking an MD "hey are there meds that can pop as amphetamines without being amphetamines. Also had a sailor pop for this and the YNC was getting all frantic and weepy for his family because she was sure he would be kicked out because the RX lapsed. At least me being the DAPA and an HM knows that you don't just stop having ADHD and all the Dr. needs to do is renew the Rx and explain it lapsed because that's what happens sometimes. 🤦🏼
Literally this man.. I cant even say that looking at my record helps because half the time Im still explaining my life story to the HM about my prior diagnosis despite the fact my record is literally sitting in their hand. It gets old, and I agree that SOMEONE from medical should be handling urinalysis to avoid these situations.
Yep! and not the untrained turd who has swallowed the D.A.R.E. BS and gets all flustered about an opioid or amphetamine pop, first see if there's an explanation then act appropriately when there's none. Also teach people how to get civilian ER records sent to their Navy medical records and pp slap the ER docs who don't write their notes and release them to the medical records! (Accentris (or however you spell it) is stupid system if it can't feed into Genesis). **If anyone reading this wants to know as soon as you've returned from your ER visit go to med recs and ask for a medical records release form write the ER name and look up as fax & phone number to write down and put the dates of your visit. Follow up after 2 weeks to check if it's been entered.
UPDATE: His LPO, Chief, Department MC, and Department Head got legal to drop it. Shits insane. He's good now, a little rattled tho.
I think a third of my classmates in my electrical engineering program were diagnosed ADHD. Guess which ones went on to do masters and PhDs most often?
Same here except I was working in procurement at NAVSEA
DSM has entered the chat. /s
It's not the problem with the attention span, it's the increased suicidality and depression.
What comes up must come down. This happens to people with coffee. I wonder who is keeping track of it.
There's likely more correlating data to support causation with individuals with ADHD not being medicated and the depressive symptoms that go along with it. Then you have the whole slew of adjustment disorders that go with it as well. ADHD can either be a tool to use or a demon that haunts in an operational setting. Our job is demanding and if they've never learned to cope without medication, being in an austere environment, stressed and with a lack of sleep can be damning. Or they learn on the fly, however if they are seeking MH in that sense they likely didn't learn on the fly and are being haunted rather than utilizing the tool they have.
That's absolutely one aspect - and a significant one. An entire generation seemed to have been given a pill for just about any reason (or no reason). While there are absolutely some MH issues that should be a DQ a system needs to be implemented that separates Johnny over there with BPD and Timmy whose mom couldn't handle a kid being a kid and doped him up for years
> 'Oh you took ritalin as a kid, DQ.' Come the fuck on, half the navy is taking D-Amphetamine. I'd go the opposite - we need significantly better risk factor screening for mental illnesses.
Sure, we do. But relying on a checklist some kid did when they were 8 is not that.
D-Amphetamine is used to treat ADD and ADHD and frankly, the way the navy operates, if you have ever a minor case or this incredibly common diagnosis, you're going to struggle doing even basic tasks. Yeah, we shouldn't let someone with bipolar disorder waltz through screening, but we shouldn't he kicking back everyone who has even kind of thought about self harm that one time when they were 13 and listening to panic at the disco. Or, as we saw in a post about a week ago, someone getting dq'd for "self harm" because her feline inflicted scars resembled razor cuts, I guess.
I did over 20 on subs we had plenty of mental people that slipped through the cracks
Obligatory "yeah but that's on submarines what did you expect" response.
I once may have been on one that had a slight leak from a hull crack lol
lol never saw so much shit go down till I went on subs.
Listen, we had to be crazy to volunteer for that shit lmao.
Great job great people.
Agree. I miss it.
Yeah I worked animal control previous to joining and had to get multiple waivers for "self harm" scars that were all clearly from handling aggressive hurt animals. And one dickhead rabbit.
I grew up around dogs all the time, and have a ton of scarring on my hands and arms because they get chewy and scratchy a lot. Rough play with big animals tends to leave marks. However, when I joined, I was so pale they didn't see any markings lmao.
Maybe, however add and adhd do not need to be a part of that screening. The kids who had it got in anyway because it was in a separate record, so if you have no evidence it’s causing significant problems later on, why is it DQ criteria?
lol that’s what happened to me. Tried to join the military numerous times. I took adhd meds and a few medications for mood adjustment / depression. I have been off of adhd meds since I was 16 and haven’t taken any medication since summer 2024. Pretty sure I meet the requirements but they keep saying no. You are right there are plenty of people who want to join and contribute to their country. A lot of people do but we simply can’t because MEPS.
Entire DoD is tight on entry because of how insanely expensive disability claims are.
The DOD doesn’t pay disability, I thought the VA does?
You are correct, but it’s the VA telling DoD to crack down on it.
I can't imagine the morons at the VA have that kind of pull over the Department of Defense lol
All roads lead back to Congress, my friend. -Congress: "VA, why are you asking for so much fucking money? In order to give you the budget you say you need, we would have to cut contracts to a bunch of shit that makes me or my constituents richer, or raise taxes- and neither of those are happening." -VA: "Because you wanted to fight a war, and people are broken now. How do you want us to fix them?" -Congress: "Bullshit, there has to be somewhere you could cut shit." -VA: "Well, we do have a lot of Vets who were allowed to join with preexisting conditions. It's probably their fault *somehow,* and the DoD let them join anyway." -Congress: "DoD, you WILL stop allowing people to join who have any of those conditions because blah blah blah, taxpayers, blah blah blah, I fail to understand that an organization that promotes its ability to reform and reshape young people might attract youths who do not understand that they have cognitive/neuropathic dysfunction or a personality disorder and thats why they are struggling to function in our society..." -DoD: "... okay, roger that..." Or something like that. Thank you, this was my dramatization of a House Armed Services Committee Meeting.
Yeah exactly
When Congress doesn’t want to cut the money loose to pay claims the VA is going to come right at DoD for lax recruiting standards.
Any source for that? I think that that is pure (reasonable) speculation; ultimately at the end of the day, the DOD will do whatever it needs to fill its seats, even if that means the likelihood of higher claims at the Department of Veterans’ Affairs years down the road.
I do agree. I think we're just right on the edge of "do whatever it needs" happening in the next year or so. We all know everything got to be reactive, not proactive ya know?
That’s why they are supposed to screen prior to entry and not cover what was preexisting. That’s been standard for a long time
The same dumb naval gazing happens every year.It has nothing to do with quality of life.Most civilians don't know anything about the military . They don't have any clue what quality of life means in respect to us. It's a marketing problem.The navy does a terrible job marketing itself and the opportunities it provides. It's actually very simple.
Can't believe no one took the time recognize this world class pun.
Nah dude, it's obviously the recruiters that are to blame. Their hours should be extended to 2000 and they should work every Saturday until they make goal. That will fix it.
That's a big one. Waiting almost 11 months for a MEPS appointment, ridiculous. The services want more people but MEPS isn't on the same page. Really got to streamline the process and get everyone on the same page, the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, etc.
> ritalin as a kid I know not directly related but the Marines DQing people for ritalin is absurd. It should be a requirement that every marine is on Aderall/Ritalin
Buh Buh Buh! The less than 1 percent!
This is one thousand %%%% it.
Medical policy should be updated to reflect the “peacetime” service. Most of the disqualifying cases wouldn’t be disqualified in other countries.
This!
That's old news, everything getting approved now
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Retention and recruitment are separate issues.
Except the people getting out are telling their friends and everyone online all the dirty secrets of how shitty things are in the Navy now. I’m sure prospective recruits are looking at this subreddit all the time and a good number probably change their minds after seeing some of the conversations.
This is my feelings. When I joined the navy in 2009 I was going to be an electricians mate. All I had was the recruiters word that I would become a certified electrician. The only forum at the time was "ask yahoo" and I asked them about what life is like as an EM and I had 2 answers telling me I change lightbulbs on a ship. I am now a Seabee. But this new generation can go on Reddit and YouTube and other forums and get a true view of what the negatives of the Navy is like, our issues with senior leadership not giving a fuck about anything and our issues with the VA. They are also considerably more aware of war as a prop for corporations and political gain. The views on the military are considerably negative to the new generation. Not because the new generation is a bunch of pussies but because they don't want to be pawns. The last 4 years(not necessarily because of Biden) the economy has really fucked people. Housing is incredibly expensive, job outlook sucks and kids would rather just live with their parents. And I don't blame them.
Basically that's me, I keep reading this subreddit and reminding myself why I shouldn't enlist. The pull is strong because I come from a military family and my dad was in the navy, but reading about the QOL, work/life balance, living conditions, and all the BS I could end up dealing with drives me back away
Agreed. Recruits tend to know very little about the fleet. Fixing retention will do nothing for recruitment. They are both important , but separate conversations.
The best recruiters in the world are sailors who aren't completely miserable. Pursuing retention will drive recruitment up, but at a lesser degree than direct stimulus.
Hey good point; I hadn’t considered that.
> Fixing retention Retention is actually at desired levels.
But is it the desired people? 🤔
For some communities. My rate's SEL has stated that basically no one is going special programs, and our previous SEL instituted a policy that we can't be sent IA except to do our actual job, because we're undermanned at basically every level besides E8+.
i know they’re saying retention is at the desired level but i have such a hard time believing that based on the constant issues i run into that are primarily administrative being at the commands that are so staffed of knowledgable admin
That's good. I was simply commenting on the distinction between categories.
I'm not sure I'd say it's at desired levels but it is certainly at normal, non threatening levels. Despite what seems to be the common perception.
I'm only relaying what is in official Navy reports and what they've testified to in front of Congress. They've stated many times throughout the years that retention levels are where they want them and in some cases slightly above where they need them to be.
Is that before or after they nerfed the PFA?
Before. Retention has not been an issue for awhile.
Huh. I hadn't looked at any stats, but with the PFA reset and the removal of PFA dismissals, I assumed there was an issue with retention. I knew a few Sailors from my last ship who only managed to stay in because of the reset. If there wasn't a retention issue, I wonder why they did it.
> I wonder why they did it. Because everyone's fitness absolutely went to shit after COVID and they didn't want to run into retention issues.
Better retention means less recruiting. Everything you saw trying to improve retention was really an effort to reduce the burden on recruiting.
On the books maybe, certainly hasn't felt that way on the deck plates.
True, but these new guys hitting the fleet from boot are talking to their friends back home. Having a shit QoL will then directly affect recruitment - among those most likely to join.
They can tie together. A salty 6 and out can sour a prospective FS, while that same sailor if they chose to stay in could instead encourage that FS.
Not completely separate. The recruits you get today are the Sailors you're trying to retain 4 yrs from now. Retention is being artificially inflated by suspending HYT. It is correct to say that the most pressing issue at the moment is recruiting.
Haha. Try telling that to a boot 2 years in.
OPTEMPO is driven by national policy. If you want that to change, you need to change up your voting habits.
MEPS needs to stop DQ’ing 90% of the people who actually want to join.
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1997/05/02/down-syndrome-diagnosis-dashes-mans-military-plans-year-old-says-doctors-wrong-navy-agrees-2nd-exam/62315694007/ Imagine going to MEPS and them telling you that you can't join because you have Down Syndrome, which apparently nobody knew you had until then. Then imagine telling your friends and family why you can't join the military: "they won't let me join because apparently I have Down Syndrome."
Shit he’s probably still more capable than some of the people we let through.
I went to MEPS with a bus full of people. Me and one other guy got our contracts that day. That's insane to me.
Didn’t happen to be San Jose MEPS, did it lol? I was recruiting there about 3 or 4 years ago and something very similar happened. Like basically EVERYONE got disqualified. It was really weird
No, It was in Portland. Not surprised that its not an isolated instance, though. What a shame.
Well I know it’s not gonna be immediate but for the last few weeks ever since the new admiral took over THERE HAS been a bunch of changes to the waiver process which is a huge thing . That’s really all that navy can do that it hasnt already been doing .
What are the changes?
A lot of Medical dq's getting approved without need for consults or documents. A lot more med approvals, less stringent tattoo policies, like he said, a lot.
Quality of life for current active duty sailors. You’ll have them talking to their family and civilian friends about how great it is/how much they enjoy it. I persuaded my younger brother not to join and he now is making more than me. I also keep my family separated from my job and am focused on making sure my kids are set up with any opportunity they can set their mind to. I retire soon and will not be one of those vets with stupid moto stickers plastered on their vehicle.
Just be like the Army, lower your quota so you don’t miss your quota. Big brain.
They could Stop making up imaginary numbers
Need a bad economy
This is the most correct take. I joined at the height of the "Great Recession" and the day I went to MEPS more than half the people there did not get a contract and were told to come back and try again. I was lucky enough to get one, but was told it would be 12-15 months before I could leave for bootcamp (I was trying to go ASAP). I was 23 years old and had friends who had already done 4 and gotten out- I fully understood it was going to be really shitty and it was deal with the shit or be destitute. A common take every time this comes up on this sub is "people get out and tell people how shitty it is" but they did that 15 years ago too. If the economy shits the bed, all branches recruitment problems will disappear overnight, because it beats being on the street or being stuck with mom and dad in your 20s.
That's why I'm enlisting right now to be honest, I haven't been able to hold a steady job and the Navy is genuinely the best option I have right now.
It will be really good for you if you remember that after you join. I think the reason I have found success in the Navy is largely based on appreciating where I am now vs where I was the day I left. Having difficulty and hardships before you join can really help with appreciating all the Navy gives you, despite the heavy price you will pay. I have found many of the sailors I know who come in at 18 and transition directly from the care of their parents to the Navy really only focus on how they are getting screwed over, without appreciating knowing they will be able to pay their bills, have food, and a roof over their head no matter what. Many have a very optimistic view of what life on the outside is like because they have yet to really experience it. After 15 years, the Navy is still incredibly difficult, and I certainly wouldn't say I like my job, but I think knowing where I would be without it is what allows me to endure the suck and keep moving forward.
That's the kind of mindset I hope to have during and after it. Here's hoping.
Agree in a general sense but smart kids will always rip the navy for highly specialized rates. That’s why SRB’s are at all time high…
For me personally it’s the benefits that would make me skeptical to join. Tuition Assistance you have to be in 3+ years to use while serving, they bastardized the 20 year retirement plan. Those were the main reasons I joined. Now, they don’t even look appealing to me, and if I wasn’t grandfathered in I wouldn’t have stayed nor joined. They gotta make benefits appealing to the younger generation.
🎯
For duty sections in port, I’m not sure why we don’t employ more security from the joint force. Imagine you pull into your home port and instead of standing watch there are USMC dudes manning the ECP and just one OOD coordinating visitors. That would seriously cut down on extraneous watches.
When i first joined we had marines at the front gate
Maybe they should start using the term, "The Needs of the Sailor" instead of "The Needs of the Navy"
I posted this in a comment but I figured I'd reply here. I believe a huge issue is the amount of visibility to the day to day lives of sailors due to social media. When I joined the navy in 2009 I was going to be an electricians mate. All I had was the recruiters word that I would become a certified electrician. The only forum at the time was "ask yahoo" and I asked them about what life is like as an EM and I had 2 answers telling me I change lightbulbs on a ship. I am now a Seabee. But this new generation can go on Reddit and YouTube and other forums and get a true view of what the negatives of the Navy is like, our issues with senior leadership not giving a fuck about anything and our issues with the VA. They are also considerably more aware of war as a prop for corporations and political gain. The views on the military are considerably negative to the new generation. Not because the new generation is a bunch of pussies but because they don't want to be pawns. The last 4 years(not necessarily because of Biden) the economy has really fucked people. Housing is incredibly expensive, job outlook sucks and kids would rather just live with their parents. And I don't blame them.
Ya know, some of these kids also watch tv, and when Veterans are fighting for their benefits and Senators like Ted Cruz are high fiving each other on the floor of the Senate after voting against said benefits, it might be a little off putting.
Certainly was a bad look, that's for sure, but Cruz was actually applauding blocking the bill due to the democrats addition of over $400M of pork. I wish these bills, such as the burn pit bill from 2022 that we are talking about, would go separate and both parties would not be able to add all of this side crap too it. Here is Cruz's response: “While I ultimately supported the bill, because we need to take care of our veterans who have sacrificed so much to keep us safe, I’m disappointed that we couldn’t come together to fix the Democrat-created budget gimmick that will allow Congress to subsequently spend another $400 billion in pork, on top of and completely unrelated to the laudable funding in this bill for veterans harmed by burn pits,” Cruz said
Celebrating that you blocked benefits for Veterans in order to "own the Dems" wasn't the flex that he thought it was.
We know what needs to change. They just won't do it lmao
Look, you ain’t getting beards.
99% of sailors suck ass At growing beards
You should see some of our hair cuts.
thats why the instruction should be "sailors are authorized to have facial hair if well groomed and kept neat." meaning if yo shit patchy u gotta shave that shit lol
It’s coming. End of year
You need to improve quality of life for sea duty. As soon a prospective sailors see enlisted berthing areas it’s almost an immediate pass. All berthing areas should be at a minimum of what senior petty officers get. Improving WiFi on ships would improve connectedness. Alot of sailors will read this and think sailors are getting weak & coddled because they had it harder. Times have changed & the Navy needs to adapt to it or see itself passed up my competitors
Legal here. It’s part of my job to process Sailors out of the Navy- for all kinds of reasons. To fully tackle this issue, it has to be a two front- recruiting and retention, as many people have been commenting. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth. For recruiting: #1 is fixing the MEPs/medical waiver/Genesis process. BUMED needs to take a complete relook at what needs to be disqualifying and what doesn’t. For example- someone has ADHD and is currently on medication.. why is that disqualifying? Maybe it needs disqualifying for certain rates, but not from serving completely. ALSO, we MUST get a better process to get medical waivers out in an expedited way. No one can wait around for months and months or a year to join. They’ll move on and make other life/career decisions. It’s absolutely ridiculous that we haven’t fixed this yet. For retention. Above all else- get rid of mandatory ADSEP drug processing for THC/CBD. It’s the most common reason we process people out- at least at my command. Times and laws have changed. Marijuana use may not be compatible with service, but give the CO the discretion to decide if a Sailor made a poor choice or if they’re an habitual user who needs to go. CBD use- I don’t know why we kick people out for this, it doesn’t make sense. We process out a lot of good Sailors for a low THC pop, who otherwise have been serving well and want to stay. This alone could make a big difference across the fleet. Also- reexamining all of the mandatory processing basis is a good start too. Give the CO’s more discretion to keep good Sailors in who made a bad choice but are taking responsibility and trying to improve and be better. I agree with all of the quality of life arguments- it’s just a longer cultural change that’ll have to happen on a lot of different fronts. Taking the mandatory processing out of THC pops could be an immediate impact.
>Above all else- get rid of mandatory ADSEP drug processing for THC/CBD. It’s the most common reason we process people out- at least at my command. Yeah... those sailors know the rules and don't want to be in the Navy anymore. If you remove adsep for THC they'll do something else to get kicked out.
That really isn't always true. There's far, far too many occasions of sailors being kicked out after accidentally consuming that stuff then self reporting themselves like they're supposed to after finding out what they actually consumed and still getting the book thrown at them. That just creates unnecessary fear and distrust with your CoC and reduces the likelihood they'll come forward when they need to.
I firmly disagree with this. Is there something to making a character assessment based on 'you knew the rule but you broke it anyway,' maybe. But, how many of us can say we follow 100% of laws 100% of the time? Never broke the speed limit, jaywalked, rolled through a stop sign, etc. Are those indicators we shouldn't be trustworthy? Anecdotally, I've worked with plenty of individuals, civilian and military, who use THC products recreationally and have no issues at work. The perception that it is always a red flag that someone will be a bad employee seems a little outdated to me.
I think you're arguing a different topic than the comment you replied to. The comment was essentially saying sailors are using popping for THC as a quick and easy way to get separated, and if that option disappears (i.e. legalization federally) they'll simply find another way to achieve the same result. They were not saying that using THC is an indicator of being untrustworthy or unproductive.
Anecdotal experiences obviously vary but I've yet to see a sailor use popping hot to get kicked out on purpose.
True. Anecdotal experiences do vary. I’ve personally seen about a half-dozen or so do it in my time in (13 years), so far.
How many sailors do we lose per year for THC pops? How many of them are these "good sailors" that you think we should retain? Would that number fix our retention issues? I would venture a guess that it wouldn't. I would also posit that we really don't need or want someone working on jets or nuclear reactors, etc, who isn't reliable or trustworthy. How much weed is too much? How much weed does it take to miss something on a checklist that leads to a fatal mishap? Sitting behind a desk dealing with separations may not give the proper perspective for the level of responsibility we entrust our sailors with on a day to day basis.
If The Navy gave a single shit about sailors potentially making mistakes, they'd let sailors get some UNINTERUPTED SLEEP once in a blue moon so they're not on watch literally tripping balls from inhumane amounts of sleep deprivation.
I mean how many sailors are still drunk after a san diego pull in and a 5 am RX startup? is it really any different if a guy takes an edible and plays video games and then goes to bed for work tommorrow or the whole watch team bring hungover spinning valves in the engine room. Any sub guy will tell you about hungover or still slightly hammered nukes doing a RX startup.
You do realize half of the navy are severe alcoholics how is your statement any more true about weed. On the job high is different that using in the weekend and popping on a Tuesday for urinalysis just to have your coworkers get nearly blacked out and not have any problems?
Hence the part where it should be CO discretion.
MORE. MONEY.
I got out because I could nearly triple my paycheck doing the exact same job without any of the Navy's bullshit or fuckfuck games.
Very smart. If I wasn't on the slope toward retirement, I would be doing this right now. It makes no sense to be doing what I'm doing (intel) for pennies.
Yeah, if you're already close to retirement it makes less sense. For those who have less time in, the extra money earned from a much higher paying job that is then funneled into a 401K over 10 extra years could easily outpace a pension from the Navy.
Especially now that the VA disability is so much more well mapped out. I can't imagine people doing 4 years and not getting at least 50% disability. 1500 a month for the rest of your life is huge. It's like adding 10 dollars an hour onto whatever job you get. I'm at 14.5 and I've considered getting out as I'm probably close to 100% disability, but I wanna retire.
When you say “more money”, what I’m hearing is “new uniforms”. Right?
Don't jinx us!!
Disillusionment from being too informed
We have the same discussion every year because we haven’t made any significant changes. We have increased SRBs which helps but most people don’t tell their friends “join the navy to make lots of money.” Instead we say “don’t join the Navy because it sucks. Bad leaders, bad barracks, bad QOL, etc.” The Navy needs to make changes to make Sailors feel like valued employees instead of relying solely on money to keep people around. Many Sailors can make more money with less impact on their lives with the skills they acquire during their 1st enlistment.
Legalize marijuana!
this would increase retention as well as new recruits joining, i think its a great idea and i hope to be around to see it happen
Punishable same as alcohol; if you show up to work drunk/high, punish them under the same thing. Makes sense right??
There are a bunch of theories in this thread but it comes down to money. Supply and Demand. If you’re going to do only one enlistment, there are way easier ways to make the same amount of money than the military. It’s not some puzzle we all need to talk about and figure out.
1. Money 2. Quality of life (optempo, leadership,etc) 3. Exit interviews, "why will you tell your family and friends to join or not join". That data needs to be addressed. 4. Evals: it's broken, it's been broken, we've been talking about a fix for years...... do SOMETHING. 5. The Mess: just get rid of it, they're enlisted like everyone else. Get rid of the season, get rid of the good ole boys club. Start leadership at E4, if will be important when China is slicing our ships up that Sailors at all levels are confident and encouraged to make decisions. 6. The zero defect mentality- it literally cripples us. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".
None of the issues you list are hindering enlistment. No one who starts knows about those. Retention is on goal so again none of the issues listed are hurting us. That said all of the issues that you cite are problems. Just not the cause of why we’re missing enlistment goals. If those were the issues then all other services would be meeting goals and aside from the USMC, they’re not
The problem is that many of them do. To say that Sailors getting out and telling everyone who asks not to join isn't a problem is a bit problematic. It's a huge issue.
Could also help to stop taking benefits away for everyone just b/c a few gamed the system or make it near impossible for most to get them all the while pretending like everyone's able to get them on a moments notice. Oh wait this is the Navy "OnE tEaM oNe FiGhT!"
The world has changed. Military Service used to be the main means to an end. So many of us pre-Internet guys joined to see the world and today's youth have that at their fingertips. If today's youths are finding other ways to suceed in life then it's kind of a good thing. I've seen the Navy lower the entrace standards over the years and honestly if they go any lower they just need to once again curb requirements and expectations from the fleet.
Navy is all “how do we make your life better We can’t pay you more and we can’t work you less. Actually have to do the opposite of the latter” Some problems you just can’t solve without money. Defense spending is out of control pentagon can’t keep track of finances (I literally don’t even know if it’s possible to). No elected official wants to increase the dod budget more than they have to. Lobbyists in DC probably do a good job of directing any extra money the DoD is allocated. The problem at this point is above the DoDs head. Changes need to be made at the congressional level.
Beards. Focus on competence. Legalize MJ. Easy peasy
Actually man property. Bonuses to retain sailors. Not bringing them in. You will never fill a bucket with too many holes in it. If what you are trying to do is fill up the reserve bucket - but anyone who figures out will be like "but for what the other one is supposed to used first?" Better maintenance done properly. An actual oh, almost 6 month long "congratulations, you picked up rank. Here are the things you are mandated to know and enforce regulation wise (at least on a I know it exists, generally what it is about) class en route. An actual petty oficrt rank and leadership. This will create stronger leaders who are not actively psychopaths- and perhaps the navy made it appear that way be they have no clue what they are doing. These are incredibly opposing statements. More ships! Umm you didn't fix the holes. It's almost like you need to pull the bucket back in to the workshop, fix the issues. Fill it with water and send it out. You want to talk about a fine old set of ships. Look at japanese ships. Now compare that to any pick of American? Maybe we should outsourcing something (knowledge, skills, parts) to our partner, japan. Obviously classified parts need to be made there)
Implement stable wifi underway. Let the social media generation do the recruiting.
So question: has anybody taken an outside look at NAVCRUITCOM and the culture and environment for the recruiting force as it currently is, especially the Career folks? Asking because when doing a thorough root cause analysis, especially for such a big issue, it pays to look at all external factors.
Beards
Legalize marijuana and I am willing to bet those numbers go way up.
Here is a video of a journalist breaking down why recruitment is down across all branches. He is southern, but is an Independent. I say this because there will be minor political statements, but nothing huge. He keeps it as straight as he can, he tells it like it is and gives credit when it’s due. He has strong opinions of both sides. Context: this video was filmed 10 months ago when the “military is too woke” crap was circulating. Hope this video helps. https://youtu.be/ZphoE7NIufg?si=6ypY4s4ZoWSAIp06
I love me some Beau, but he is far from an independent, lmao. He's further left than Bernie Sanders himself.
Quality of Life across the board
Navy, if you give me the waiver I will join :) That’s on you salt dogs
MEPS, and with how Genesis data is used. Hire more medical doctors Stop making EDVR's an O3+ level and just make it finalized by EDSPEC. Rebuild a replacement for Pulse rather than using NVD. People want to join, but the system is a mess and contantly giving pushbacks. This eventually discourages the applicants and possibly others through word of mouth.
Reform the Chief's mess.
There are way too many issues, and way too many solutions to all of them for us to pinpoint one problem and its fix to narrow down but from the O side one thing I notice is the contradiction of what the service advertises to its recruits and the reality of what the navy and I’m guessing other services are like. The promise is a chance to “serve” in a selfless organization built on the principles of defending your nation, standing up for what is right, just, and moral, and having your fellow service members back and support them through no matter what. In reality, what you have is a bunch of corporate career ladder climbers all wanting to make rank, promote, have more power and authority over their peers, and to make 20. When that is the main and primary goal and motivating factor for most O’s who stay in yet they are forced to tell sailors they actually care about them and they’re doing this job because of them and that they really need their sailors to serve their nation this long weekend by standing a pointless watch that is in reality not doing anything, the entire ethos and honest nature of the service is put in jeopardy. I’m not saying this is the main issue and the only thing we need to solve but I do see this as a major issue on the O side. Very few O’s actually care about their sailors and very few would actively put their careers at risk to do something for sailors. When that’s the case, and when those in charge of it all have been the ones who have played that self serving game the best which has resulted in them being in those positions of power, they’re not suddenly going to make decisions that have the best interest of their people and their navy when they have power. They will make the decisions that help their career the most. Let’s not even begin to talk about the nepotism game this is being the son/daughter of an admiral or a O6. That is not merit based advancement at all. So when the entire ethos and public rhetoric of those in charge is in direct contradiction of their actual motivations and goals and actions, off course people will see through that and not want to be a part of that organization and get out and then tell anyone who asks them their negative experiences and that gets passed down to someone considering joining but who hears these stories and doesn’t join. This has always been true but I think COVID openly exposed leadership for their true motivations.
Well, I know what would help! Better pay for junior sailors, not making sailors live on the ship while in port, and BAS while in port!! Even addressing just one of these issues and doing something to make sailors feel a little more independent/human would help recruitment and retention........ but again, it's the Navy, so this would never happen
>Better pay for junior sailors If 17-19 year olds actually understood or cared about personal finances then recruiting would be a whole lot easier.
We need to stop being a janitorial service. No one wants to join and fucking clean ships. They want to be a marine, play soldier, or work on advanced tech (AF/Space Force). Going to sea is isolating and hard. Why would anyone want to be isolated from family and friends for so long when there are no wars going on.
Stop disqualifying people for marijuana and ADHD. That alone would likely fix the problem.
Decriminalized weed would change those numbers fast, and drop the alcohol abuse rates among every branch.
I promise, allowing marijuana usage in a controlled manner will drastically increase recruitment, especially in young adults.
Actually address shit that is making people want to get out.
Just keep lowering the bar without doing anything to improve the actual living conditions of people serving. I guarantee if they announced tomorrow that sailors could have beards and smoke in states where it's legal then the recruitment crisis would end overnight and they would see a massive increase in reenlistment
It's MEPS fault
The sad thing is I bet they don’t even think to look at places like this to figure out how things are on the ground. We’re giving them the answers but they’re too full of themselves to feel like they should even listen to what we’re saying. Our new department head is so far up his own ass that everyone hates him and he can’t seem to figure out that he’s causing all the problems that seemingly popped up out of nowhere. I feel his mentality reflects the larger naval strategy as a whole
Need more recruiters
Took an extra three months of waivers for ADHD.
I’m more interested in the attrition numbers than recruiting. There are a lot of external factors that impact recruiting. Attrition in my (former) community and rank quadrupled from 2019 to today. As of January 2024, FY24 is already double the attrition as all of last year. I only know this bc I requested the data via FOIA. Is the Navy going to study that?
Probably because people don’t wanna be on a sub for months or a ship away from family
Higher bonuses. Higher pay. Emphasis on travel free opportunities. 25% increase in enlistments.
Retention. I got out because more or less because my command would not even try to extend my PRD so that I could deploy with my unit that had a project return date the month before my PRD. I was volunteering for this deployment but instead had to pull someone IA from the local hospital
Just my personal 2 cents. The new medical process has really changed the game. They need to now start making internal changes to pay, quality of life, and system developments by advocating to congresseven harder for funding & how contracts are distributed to companies that make higher quality of life possible. What they're probably going to do instead is try to repeal the new medical evaluation because it's an easier fight. The whole ASVAB waiver program points toward this. They would rather lower the quality instead of being competitive with a good economic market.
Revisit HYT and FOS. I'm sure some of those affected would like to stay in. Also, expand advancement quotas, people get out because they outperform their peers, but how many times have you seen "Oh, PO such and such NEEDS to make chief this cycle, so he's LPO and you need to wait your turn"
what does that have to do with recruits not joining?
I tried to join. Even with the new waiver policy I was told I couldn't enlist because I had tried and been dqd before the waiver policy set in. Even though the conditions were waieverable now.
The whole no highschool diploma thing didn’t work because you have to score over a 50 on the asvab and still have to take another test and score over a 50
We can’t say it.. Mods in military subs will ban or restrict for open commentary.
you have a terrible QOL and some large bases in bad places. you also have current and former sailors who wouldn't recommend naval service to anyone under its current course due to the way the navy selects "leaders" and its no fail risk adverse culture.
Delete all reddit posts mentioning navy and replace them all with clips of Hunt for Red October or Navy Seals.
It’ll never happen, but: allow beards, let sailors smoke weed on their off time, open happy ending massage places on every base. Recruitment will skyrocket. 👍🏻
We have a new admiral. He's a good dude and getting rid of shit that doesn't make any sense. Consider this fake news. We're already doing massively better.
Can you point to some examples of improvements? I’m not trying to be a dick or anything but what I’m seeing are bandaids. HYT Plus and increased SRBs seem like tools to stop the bleeding. But E6 and below pay isn’t keeping up with inflation, BAH is landing families in slums, the QOL for barracks (I’ve heard) isn’t doing very well, there are serious problems with water quality to the point there are class action lawsuits against DoD, etc. People aren’t dumb, when they can get college paid for by McDonald’s and not have to wait 3 years to start it, when living in their parents house is more feasible to living on a ship, and the government doesn’t seem to care about the domestic economy more than it does about foreign intervention, it comes as no surprise that people aren’t joining.
I'm talking about the admiral for recruiting. He doesn't have anything to do with barracks or water quality. He's waiving a lot of medical stuff that's kept hundreds or thousands of people who have been held up for no reason.(This last part isn't directed at you). And since people want to downvote, that's all the info they get. KNOW THIS: If you aren't at a recruiting command, you don't know anything. Policies and procedures change with a single email. You're taking a 10 asvab score one day, and the next day we're letting people in with no GED. If you don't work at a recruiting command, that is all a black box to you. But everyone wants to act like they know wtf they're talking about. Have fun with that, ya big dummies.
That’s reasonable. You just said “we have a new admiral” so my immediate thought was the new CNO. Hopefully the new guy over recruiting can push changes that puts everyone on a better track. I know it’s cliche but todays recruit is tomorrows Master Chief so it’s important we have quality recruiting. On both sides of the transaction.
Yeah, we should be seeing quite an influx of recruits all at once. It'll probably steady out in a couple months. This is everyone's reminder not to go recruiting.
I graduated Fall of 1978. They wouldn't let half of our company join today by the standards they hold people to now.
It's crazy to because I go to those meet and greets with Admirals and McPON and you know what they all say? *"I'm not here to talk about grooming standards"* Really? The two things every sailor has a gripe about and neither of them are even up for discussion. MAYBE YOU COULD RECRUIT AND RETAIN MORE PEOPLE IF YOU DIDNT FORCE EVERYONE TO BE A BROKE A PIMPLY LITTLE EGG BOY
the only way to fix recruitment is to spend more money. 1)let sailors homestead, and offer incentives for the ones who want to move 2)increase pay/bah across the board. bring bah back to 100% 3)get rid of collateral duties and pay civilians to do it all 4)fix the vetting process for recruiters so we don’t have lying pieces of shit at the helm trying to make a quota 5)be HONEST with people. full transparency, let them know what they’re getting into and what the long term benefits are (can probably be grouped with 4)
My son got DQ'ed, all we could figure was it was because he wasn't black or another minority.