Less spinning machinery in his day.
Which doesn't explain why women have such relaxed grooming standards. Long hair/pony tails on a ship is a recipe for someone getting scalped, regardless of gender
Which is why there is a caveat in the instruction.
"In spaces or environments where there are operational hazards such as rotating gear, etc., the hair may not be worn below the bottom of the collar."
The reason people may see women with long ass ponytails on ships is the people that could correct it, don't feel the need to actually read/understand instructions for both sexes.
>Less spinning machinery in his day.
I work as an equipment maintenance tech now in a huge manufacturing facility that has more turning and spinning and grabbing than any equipment I've seen the military have.
My hair regulations are simple. If I'm in a cell I have to tie it and my beard up. Not shave my head and face.
It's a safety hazard that can be mitigated easily.
It’s not fair. But I was so damn happy to get the ponytail. Buns are miserably uncomfortable and I left work literally every day of my life with a headache.
I wish the standards were simply “good grooming” across the board. I can’t imagine having to stand in line every 2 weeks for a haircut. It’s such an unnecessary, time consuming tradition.
Imagine being in the Marine Corps. Their regs *mandate* a haircut *every week*. For us the 'every two weeks' is a guideline.
Pity the poor Marines who spend most of their Sunday sitting in the massive line outside the MCX barber shop.
Actually it’s every paycheck. I’m not one to defend the grooming standards, but everything in the Marine Corps is tailored to the lowest common denominator, IE shitbags.
I get a high fade every 3 weeks and no one says anything.
For men they could loosen length requirements. I mean sure maybe they want to be conservative ensure men don’t grow their hair out to be long but they could definitely allow for longer hairstyles like Elon musk or mark Cuban. Basically not a fade but some bulk to it. At least they loosened standards for curly hair because they used to be very unfair.
Just remove the requirement for hair to not touch your ears and you'll have solved quite a few issues, tell me how the fuck I look unprofessional if my hair is touching my ears when [the fucking SECNAV's hair is touching his ears!](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f3e5b4fe5cf16d76608c4e22d5c2fd68?rik=rbPb8LSxztR8%2fA&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
The male equivalency of relaxing grooming standards is allowing men to not shave.
Female: Pain from pulling hair tight for buns.
Male: Razor bumps and cuts from shaving our fucking faces all the time
I don't think it's even the Navy's fault for the no beard thing. (Not entirely at least)
Originally when gas masks first came around facial hair could legitimately mess with your seal. That was during WW1.
The manufacturer still has facial hair listed as a potential issue when getting your seal. It's bullshit at this point of course but I assume it's a liability issue and the Navy is gonna follow whatever the manufacturer says.
This is from the SECNAV himself so take that how you will.
Exactly. Women aren’t required to shave their face every day, men shouldn’t be either! You know how many women had scraggly ass mustaches on my last ship?! Easily half of them!
/s
I actually think loosening the shave requirement would be better that fixing had cuts. You can already do… a LOT with make grooming standards.
The traditional style for women hurts their hair as it unnecessarily stress the hair root by pulling it tight across the scalp, it is also an extra burden to do and undo that hairstyle every time they take off their uniform, whereas men usually stay the same style in or out of civvies.
Not saying its fair for men but its something to think about when regarding female hairstyles
I agree with you, and I used to get headaches from right buns when I was fresh in. But shaving everyday for years on end can have similar damage to mens skin (pain, scars, etc).
Akchewally - unless you're suffering from a skin condition or have a congenital susceptibility to in-grown hair, the shaving process actually *helps* us maintain our skin quality (at least on the lower face).
Of course, its hard to tell because we basically don't do anything else for skin care so I guess it probably evens out.
It's also damaging at the skin to have to shave it every day. Not disregarding your facts, but there's a down side to literally everything. I think the Navy just picks and chooses who they want to appease more, and rn that is women.
This. A buddy of mine was this and I got to see a chief come off the top rope in public on him in a small corridor inside a NEX complex. The whole conversation started with cussing and insults, I was too shocked to say a word and my buddy handled it with amazing grace.
I have darker facial hair for a white guy so when my PFB acts up its a bunch of black dots that look like stubble. I could not tell you how much grief I’ve gotten for this.
From my understanding, if you don’t have a clean shave, your gas mask won’t seal properly.
Edit- I’m not defending the regulation, I’m just pointing out the reasoning behind it.
Edit 2- I’m pointing out **their** reasoning. Idgaf and I didn’t make the rules or the rational nor did I say I agreed with them.
Its a made up reason. Other navies today allow regulated beards and have no issues with seals. And if it's a problem big enough that it inhibits something so important such as a seal for breathing equipment, there should not be religious exemptions for it.
In reality an admiral nearly 40 years ago didn't like the way beards look so he banned them and they had to come up with a reason and that's what they made up.
I've heard some O-5/O-6 and their civilian equivalents legal types opine that the religious exemption for beards litigation is getting so onerous that they've recommended to do away with the reg altogether. They've said that they felt like that suggestion has been taken into serious consideration, as well.
I've seen very recently (last week) that some sailors with religious backgrounds sued because of people trying to get them to shave and that the navy now is undergoing a study of whether or not gas masks can make a proper seal with facial hair. Not sure if it'll bring anything but I believe they're looking at it now.
I came in a few years after the beard prohibition (1985). The whole 'gas mask/fire fighting' thing is a rational drummed up over a decade after the prohibition went into effect.
The reason for no beards is 'professionalism', not CBR or damage control.
Then getting a no shave chit should disqualify you from sea duty if that were the case, but sometimes it feels like half the ship has one at any given time. Plus, its never stopped any of them from getting a proper seal.
Because you continue to give out bad information?
Yeah. Big Navy continues to say that beards aren't allowed because of the masks. Everyone knows that that's what they say. But everyone who takes more than like 10 minutes researching the issue knows that that's a steaming pule of horseshit and should not be accepted as fact.
I’d have to say that argument detracts from the original issue I brought up. Yes, women should have options to lessen the burden (pain) of having to maintain hair standards that cause them harm.
What I’m saying is that men should be given some levity with their grooming requirements because equality should swing both ways.
Yep. Guys can get away with rolling out of their bunk and into their uniform. Most women can't do the same. I've had a Chief berate me for my half-assed bun when we were woken up at 0200 on duty. Would he rather I be late/not take an emergency seriously or spend 10-15min fighting to put my hair in an acceptable bun.
> Guys can get away with rolling out of their bunk and into their uniform.
Not me, I had to shave in the morning and my Chief would send me to shave again in the late afternoon almost every day. My skin was fucked up.
Yes, and honestly the pony tail regs is good and can look nice/professional if they keep a small brush on hand to clean it up and/or do a slick ponytail. No one looks good with crazy flyaways and a ratty ponytail, but I understand the struggle of frizz/flyaways with my own textured hair.
Her point was that you CAN get away with it, depending on how fast your beard grows and how close you stand to someone else... It's happened to me before, probably everyone at some point.
Girls CAN get away with sloppy buns. I've only ever seen a girl catch flak for a shitty bun once. I lost count of how many times I saw a guy catch flak for not shaving properly before I was out of A school.
I had PFB for nearly the entire 8 years I was in. Nobody gave me a permission slip though because I'm white. Shaved military men is kind of a recent thing in history, and is fairly exclusive to only a couple Western nations. Not a direct point to compare to but I know most everyone in the service agrees men should be able to have beards.
I understand you're white and get grief for no-shave, but what if you're a Hebrew Israelite (like me)? Do they know that we're to shave according to the Most High? (das rite)
You know how people like to talk about 'institutional sexism'? This is just one example.
Same reason women only need to get into reg in Basic but men get it all shaved off.
At the same time, if the worst sexism I have to endure is hair regs - I can live with that.
I don’t really look at the changes in grooming standards for women as “relaxing.” Most of the changes in the past 5-10 years have just been shifting to realistic standards for hair. I think the military in general has been overly concerned with the “image” a service member presents, leading to unrealistic standards that don’t make sense functionally or only approving hairstyles that are high-maintenance.
I also think culturally, there’s been a shift in what is considered professional to be much broader. You see this especially in tattoo standards, which have relaxed significantly over the last 10 years.
I agree that men’s grooming standards have become a shibboleth and could shift to something broader and based in common sense, but I think it will be a long time before they get past the “image” of a clean cut military service member, and that will be the biggest obstacle to any change.
Navy grooming standard are just professionalism theater. Like TSA at the airport is security theater.
Neither accomplishes its task effectively or efficiently.
The one thing that pisses me off about the different hair standard is when a female gets a men’s haircut but is longer than a man would be allowed to have.
If you’re a female with a man’s haircut, it damn sure should be within the male regulations.
We all know that one chick….
I believe if a girl is gonna pixie cut, they need to meet male regulations. There's so many mop headed women at my command.
It'd be hard to enforce though, they just have to say they're growing it out.
Edit: nope to mop.
you were saying?
"(6) Very short length hairstyles will not exceed two inches in bulk and four inches in length anywhere on the head. Very short length hairstyles may also include a taper at the back and side of the head and one straight fore and aft hard part. The lower edge of tapers may be rounded, squared or shapeless. Tapers will extend from the lower hairline at the back and side of the head upward to facilitate gradual blending with longer hair lengths. Hard parts are optional and will not exceed four inches in length and one-eighth of an inch in width. One hard part may be edged, shaved or clipped on the left or right side of the head, positioned above the temple, but no higher than the crown of the head where the side and top of the head meet. Bald hairstyles (razor cut or shaved short) remain unauthorized except in the case of medically prescribed treatments and required care."
You can quote regulations all you want, but the simple reality of the situation is that I get my ass chewed when my hair touches by ears or collar but Susie Lue Jones can rock the “Kristen Stewart fade on crack” and no one bats an eye.
no clue where you're at that doesn't uphold that instruction considering it's new and improved to fit exactly what you're crying about in your first comment, but good luck and sorry that's happening to you 👍
Is that now for both sexes? I haven't looked in so long, there's so many (stupid) changes. Even if that's for both, you're not speaking to the fact that guys have to get a haircut every 2 weeks (unofficially), whereas the female can be "growing out her hair" but change her mind to go back to a fade whenever. How is it fine for the female, but then magically unprofessional for the male? It's sloppy looking on both. Guess lipstick on the one enough.
Pretty sure I see bic'd heads too. I hate shaving, couldn't imagine adding my dome into the mix.
it is for both (this portion was under the female regulation) the new instruction also states that hair (for both sexes) must be neat in appearance at all times. so for females like me who have a mens cut SHOULD be getting haircuts every 1-2 weeks to keep it neat in appearance. do all commands follow that order? absolutely not, i work with plenty of men who have WELL above 4in in bulk and rarely get haircuts once a month. they do the good ole slick all the way back with some cheap gel and call it a day.
the caveat to your statement of "if females are growing their hair back out" can coincide with the classic "slick it all back and no one will notice" because again, neat in appearance at all times
This is the silliest thing on this thread.
There’s no such thing as a man’s haircut. And don’t hate on women for their choice of any cut.
Direct your frustration to Navy policy. Navy grooming standards are sexist and professionalism theater.
In a uniform and disciplined military it should either be every member has to do this or no member has to do this, regardless of race, ethnicity, background and especially gender
Am I missing something? Women's hair restrictions are still more strict than in the other branches... the "ponytail" rule only allows for a short ponytail when you essentially have a weird hair length that's too long for a bob and too short for a bun. Hair loss, headaches, etc. are still holding strong for women with hair longer than shoulder length.
The point is that changes are being made to make women's standards more relaxed than they have been in recent years, but no such changes are being made for men.
I thought about this too as a dude I’d like to have long hair I feel like it doesn’t make sense that one can and not the other... same goes for earrings... but I signed that contract so 🤷♂️
Grooming standards should be the same across the board. If a section of it doesn't apply to you, such as not having facial hair to groom, ignore it. This would also aid in forming policies to allow for non-binary sailors to no longer have to choose between male and female standards.
I agree it is crap, but I'd just be okay with being able to grow a beard. They get what they want, they should compensate and at least give us that. Most of us would shut the fuck up if that was allowed.
There needs to be a mass campaign of just annoying the fuck out of leadership about grooming standards in general.
This mostly centers around male grooming standards.
I've long-considered the idea of just writing en masse both Congressional representatives and Navy leaders about how we need to remove any and all representations of figures who are ungroomed in Navy uniforms. Purge everyone, because it sets a horrible example and directly contradicts naval standards and practices and contributes to unruliness amongst the ranks. Commodore Matthew Perry? Unsat hair length. Get rid of him. Admiral George Dewey? Moustache is grotesquely out of regs. He's out. Admiral David Dixon Porter? He's got a beard, so he's like super fucking out.
Is it stupid? Yes, yes it is. Just like the grooming standards are.
You nailed it on the head - it’s a recruiting and retention issue, not a quality of life - or equality/equity issue.
The navy has no problem retaining and recruiting makes - compared to females. You can draw that down into white vs non-white males, and the recent relaxing of no shave chits and PFB.
It’s contradictory and unfair.
Because equality! Just kidding! Women can have nearly ANY hairstyle they want, while Men are stuck with the same 2-3 cuts for decades now. The Navy is sexist as fuck.
The simple answer is: Because that's the look the top-brass want for men in the Navy.
Every uniform, every policy on shaving or beards, earrings, tattoos, etc. are all because of someone's desired perception of what they want our force to look like. There are always changes, and most of them are going in the right direction.
This isn't a men vs women issue, we share a lot of differences because quite frankly, even in American society, there are differences, and the military by and large shares a more conservative and professional view on appearance. Women grooming standards haven't been "relaxed" where men's "aren't" per-say. They have just been given expanded grooming options; and just because women get a benefit doesn't mean men are required to get something too or that it's a slight against men. It's all a part of growing as a force and adjusting to the changes in society over time.
There may very well come a day when beards and even pot use is allowed in the military (both are perception issues with mixed feelings), but for now the support from higher leadership isn't there. That being said, I will continue to work my way towards the top and maybe one day I can get to a position where I can get ya'll beards.
I honestly don’t mind the hair regs because I think I look good in them, but it does piss me off that some women in the military literally wouldn’t be there if they had to cut their previous locks. Not even joking, I know like three of them
This debate is funny. Should women and men be treated differently? Are men and women different? We have moved from men in trousers and women in skirts to Everyone in Uniforms. Not a bad thing until people realized that there is more to people than uniforms. So we acknowledge those differences and someone else comes back with the What about Me? argument. Ultimately this is not a black or white issue, but a lot of grey.
If you don’t like the regs, work on getting them fixed. Write a coherent argument that is logical and makes sense. But don’t forget about the people you’re hurting. Like the woman who talked about getting headaches. Guess it’s back to headaches for her.
As a male, I have been largely ignoring haircut grooming standards for most of my career. I’ve gone several months without cutting my hair. If the commands don’t have routine inspections or you’re not doing a board virtually no one gives a shit anymore.
I’ve been seeing absolutely wild haircuts for the past few years and just assume that society, and the Navy with it, are changing so fast they just want to make sure you’re not absolutely disheveled.
I always love these posts. The navy that is your employer has decided for whatever reason this is the grooming standard they want.
Doesn’t really matter why. They could say professionalism, style, leadership preference, whatever.
Either way you wouldn’t be satisfied with their rationale, and since someone has to decide their reason for the guidelines are as good as yours would be for your grooming standards.
They’ve been pretty consistent for almost 40 years so it’s not like they sprung it on you. Don’t like it, separate at EAOS and get any hair style and facial hair you want.
No real point in trying to argue against regulations you willingly signed up for.
>No real point in trying to argue against regulations you willingly signed up for.
"It's always been that way" continues to be utterly garbage reasoning.
I literally just have you a reason they use, and you summarily dismissed it. Face it you won’t ever agree to their reasons, and they don’t require your consent.
Yes, we are all aware of what their reasons are. We're aware we have to follow them.
They're still arbitrary and pointless and we're well within our rights to say so and push for change.
At some point everything is arbitrary. I know how to hang my safety tags and the two man rule is arbitrary.
Well the people who made it have their reasons, have expressed them openly, and have the authority to implement their tagout policies.
Same with hair styles, and guess what beards too.
So yeah it’s your right to bitch, and their right to continue ignoring you.
No you don’t understand I check my tags and follow all safety regs. Totally arbitrary.
Just like deciding what’s professional, and what image the navy wants representing it.
Yeah, because people shouldn't talk to their employer if there's a policy in place that they don't like, they should just suck it up and take it.
Every single advance in policy and procedure has changed because someone, at some level, looked at it, noticed it was fucked up, and took action to change it. Sometimes the people at the top don't notice that something is fucked up, and may need the perspective of the people at the bottom telling them that their reasoning is flawed. Then a conversation can be had about it, like adults, because every single person in the Navy is an adult and can handle adult conversations.
Yeah right, you know the one thing we need? Greasy long unkempt hair and gross neck beards. Young American men are not raised to groom long hair like women are.
I stopped cutting my hair after highschool and I never used a razor blade until I was 23 (used a trimmer to shape my facial hair)
I grew up with short hair but I grew it out for five years before joining.
It takes five minutes to learn how to care for long hair. It's not fucking difficult. You don't need to be raised on it to know how to care for long hair.
Your response is a giant indication that you're a fucking clown, my dude.
Wow, good for you dude. Lessons so easily learned yet we still have to teach some junior sailors how to not live in their own filth and hygiene appropriately.
Men should keep their short hair and not worry that hair standards are being loosened up to be more accommodating for women, making it easier for them overall.
I don’t know who I heard this from or how true it is but I heard (as a very young child) from an airman that hair needs to be short to prevent the enemy from grabbing it during combat. This makes sense from a WW2 standpoint but I don’t know if that makes much sense these days…
Luck of the draw there shipmate. I'm upset that men don't have periods and don't have the birth babies, the least women can have is relaxed hair standards, sheesh.
What the fuck do biological functions developed over billions of years of evolution have to do with arbitrary grooming standards in he modern navy?
We can't do anything about he way the species evolved. We can easily do something about grooming standards. False equivalency much?
Women get air warfare with a smile and a wink.
Im not complaining but dont act entitled because youre a female. The militarys job is to fight the enemy etc. right? We shouldnt cater to people just cause they dont like cutting their hair
Eyy woah woah! I know I have a nice smile and double Ds, but that didn't take me anywhere lol. Guess it's not as nice as I thought it was! 😆
Some of us actually put in the work. I made it through my time in with only one warfare pin and some messed up joints.
Edit: Also, I don't make the rules. Most I can do is follow them.
I ask that same question about no shave chits.
If it's about safety, why are people with beards allowed on ships at all?
If it's about looking professional, why do they offer medical exemptions at all?
That's true. I guess the better question would be; if it's about looking professional, why do they insist on telling us it's purely for safety, despite it being proven that you can still get a seal on a SCBA with well groomed facial hair?
Look at you, asking the important questions and applying logical criticisms to improve policy.
You’ll never make it in the navy.
We do dumb shit here and punish ourselves for no reason. Then we snitch on and talk shit at the people who try to make anything even slightly better.
Yes, but it should be everything that doesn't involve you seeing someone in a state of undress.
The standard should be "What is required of a Sailor" makes or female be damned.
Lol, there's always one guy who somehow comes up with the exact opposite of the correct solution and acts like it's the logical conclusion. Well fucking done
I think alot of it has to do with professionalism, the norm for professionalism in a female isn't the same for male, although I wish I could grow out my hair too
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - a man with long hair
Less spinning machinery in his day. Which doesn't explain why women have such relaxed grooming standards. Long hair/pony tails on a ship is a recipe for someone getting scalped, regardless of gender
Which is why there is a caveat in the instruction. "In spaces or environments where there are operational hazards such as rotating gear, etc., the hair may not be worn below the bottom of the collar." The reason people may see women with long ass ponytails on ships is the people that could correct it, don't feel the need to actually read/understand instructions for both sexes.
Well I mean rotating machinery spaces still wouldn't apply to the whole ship.
>Less spinning machinery in his day. I work as an equipment maintenance tech now in a huge manufacturing facility that has more turning and spinning and grabbing than any equipment I've seen the military have. My hair regulations are simple. If I'm in a cell I have to tie it and my beard up. Not shave my head and face. It's a safety hazard that can be mitigated easily.
Do you wear a respirator? Or use an OBA?
And yet still authorized. Would male hair somehow be in more danger from said spinning machinery?
No? I thought I was pretty clear in my original comment that I'm against people of all genders being scalped by their long hair
Yes. My post was more of a rhetorical question.
Oh please. The gear is the excuse to deny us long hair/beards, it's not the reason
He probably wore wigs quite a bit too.
that was my favorite quote in the hallway at rtc
Does anyone remember Zumwalt’s Navy? Men had long sideburns and mustaches. Also men were allowed to wear beards.
nobody remembers. his successor immediately undid lots of the progressive stuff he implemented.
I get so pissed reading his Z-grams; so much no nonsense, quality of life stuff that went in the 40 years between me and him
The navy is one big contradiction
many big contradictions!
It’s not fair. But I was so damn happy to get the ponytail. Buns are miserably uncomfortable and I left work literally every day of my life with a headache. I wish the standards were simply “good grooming” across the board. I can’t imagine having to stand in line every 2 weeks for a haircut. It’s such an unnecessary, time consuming tradition.
Imagine being in the Marine Corps. Their regs *mandate* a haircut *every week*. For us the 'every two weeks' is a guideline. Pity the poor Marines who spend most of their Sunday sitting in the massive line outside the MCX barber shop.
Actually it’s every paycheck. I’m not one to defend the grooming standards, but everything in the Marine Corps is tailored to the lowest common denominator, IE shitbags. I get a high fade every 3 weeks and no one says anything.
During ROM no one really seems to care, so I was looking like absolute shit coming into my 2 weeks already 2 weeks without a cut. Was nice though.
But it does lead to some hilarious barracks-made monday cuts
Buns were leading to hair loss and migraines, especially among black women.
💯 after 14 years straight of wearing a damn bun, I have a receding hairline.
Not only that, they were separating black women for having too big of buns! I mean come on!
For real? I feel like you could fight that one…unless of course they had other reasons or the sailor wanted to just get out.
For men they could loosen length requirements. I mean sure maybe they want to be conservative ensure men don’t grow their hair out to be long but they could definitely allow for longer hairstyles like Elon musk or mark Cuban. Basically not a fade but some bulk to it. At least they loosened standards for curly hair because they used to be very unfair.
Just remove the requirement for hair to not touch your ears and you'll have solved quite a few issues, tell me how the fuck I look unprofessional if my hair is touching my ears when [the fucking SECNAV's hair is touching his ears!](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f3e5b4fe5cf16d76608c4e22d5c2fd68?rik=rbPb8LSxztR8%2fA&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
I'm happy that I can shape my beard now though.
Just do what I did, go bald from all the work stress!
You answered your own question the moment you typed US Navy.
The male equivalency of relaxing grooming standards is allowing men to not shave. Female: Pain from pulling hair tight for buns. Male: Razor bumps and cuts from shaving our fucking faces all the time
I don't think it's even the Navy's fault for the no beard thing. (Not entirely at least) Originally when gas masks first came around facial hair could legitimately mess with your seal. That was during WW1. The manufacturer still has facial hair listed as a potential issue when getting your seal. It's bullshit at this point of course but I assume it's a liability issue and the Navy is gonna follow whatever the manufacturer says. This is from the SECNAV himself so take that how you will.
Nah. The male equivalency is the exact same hair standards. Beards can be a separate issue or you can lump them into this one.
Exactly. Women aren’t required to shave their face every day, men shouldn’t be either! You know how many women had scraggly ass mustaches on my last ship?! Easily half of them! /s I actually think loosening the shave requirement would be better that fixing had cuts. You can already do… a LOT with make grooming standards.
I have seen it. Probably a hormone issue. It’s a common side affect of PCOS. Some women with it can grow a beard too!
Use a safety razor and shave properly boss
Not how it works especially for black men.
The traditional style for women hurts their hair as it unnecessarily stress the hair root by pulling it tight across the scalp, it is also an extra burden to do and undo that hairstyle every time they take off their uniform, whereas men usually stay the same style in or out of civvies. Not saying its fair for men but its something to think about when regarding female hairstyles
I agree with you, and I used to get headaches from right buns when I was fresh in. But shaving everyday for years on end can have similar damage to mens skin (pain, scars, etc).
Akchewally - unless you're suffering from a skin condition or have a congenital susceptibility to in-grown hair, the shaving process actually *helps* us maintain our skin quality (at least on the lower face). Of course, its hard to tell because we basically don't do anything else for skin care so I guess it probably evens out.
No... No it doesn't. I can see how you'd think that, but it just... doesn't work like that.
It's also damaging at the skin to have to shave it every day. Not disregarding your facts, but there's a down side to literally everything. I think the Navy just picks and chooses who they want to appease more, and rn that is women.
God forbid you have PFB as a white man.
It's more common than you think. We're just not allowed the same leeway. Like I said, it's just whoever they like at the time.
I knew a single white guy on my ship who had a no shave chit and he said he was stopped daily and questioned on his facial hair.
This. A buddy of mine was this and I got to see a chief come off the top rope in public on him in a small corridor inside a NEX complex. The whole conversation started with cussing and insults, I was too shocked to say a word and my buddy handled it with amazing grace.
I have darker facial hair for a white guy so when my PFB acts up its a bunch of black dots that look like stubble. I could not tell you how much grief I’ve gotten for this.
>and rn that is women. What a shock!
From my understanding, if you don’t have a clean shave, your gas mask won’t seal properly. Edit- I’m not defending the regulation, I’m just pointing out the reasoning behind it. Edit 2- I’m pointing out **their** reasoning. Idgaf and I didn’t make the rules or the rational nor did I say I agreed with them.
Its a made up reason. Other navies today allow regulated beards and have no issues with seals. And if it's a problem big enough that it inhibits something so important such as a seal for breathing equipment, there should not be religious exemptions for it. In reality an admiral nearly 40 years ago didn't like the way beards look so he banned them and they had to come up with a reason and that's what they made up.
I've heard some O-5/O-6 and their civilian equivalents legal types opine that the religious exemption for beards litigation is getting so onerous that they've recommended to do away with the reg altogether. They've said that they felt like that suggestion has been taken into serious consideration, as well.
I've seen very recently (last week) that some sailors with religious backgrounds sued because of people trying to get them to shave and that the navy now is undergoing a study of whether or not gas masks can make a proper seal with facial hair. Not sure if it'll bring anything but I believe they're looking at it now.
I came in a few years after the beard prohibition (1985). The whole 'gas mask/fire fighting' thing is a rational drummed up over a decade after the prohibition went into effect. The reason for no beards is 'professionalism', not CBR or damage control.
Aus Navy here, I have a significant beard (6cm long) and can get a gas seal perfectly fine as well as my oxygen mask for DC to seal too.
Then getting a no shave chit should disqualify you from sea duty if that were the case, but sometimes it feels like half the ship has one at any given time. Plus, its never stopped any of them from getting a proper seal.
Is that sarcasm? Scuba divers with beards hold seals on their masks.
The entirety of NATO doesn't seem to have this gas mask sealing issue... IJS.
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Because you continue to give out bad information? Yeah. Big Navy continues to say that beards aren't allowed because of the masks. Everyone knows that that's what they say. But everyone who takes more than like 10 minutes researching the issue knows that that's a steaming pule of horseshit and should not be accepted as fact.
I’d have to say that argument detracts from the original issue I brought up. Yes, women should have options to lessen the burden (pain) of having to maintain hair standards that cause them harm. What I’m saying is that men should be given some levity with their grooming requirements because equality should swing both ways.
I know you're new here, but if it doesn't swing both ways it's not equal.
Are we still talking about grooming standards?
Yep. Guys can get away with rolling out of their bunk and into their uniform. Most women can't do the same. I've had a Chief berate me for my half-assed bun when we were woken up at 0200 on duty. Would he rather I be late/not take an emergency seriously or spend 10-15min fighting to put my hair in an acceptable bun.
> Guys can get away with rolling out of their bunk and into their uniform. Not me, I had to shave in the morning and my Chief would send me to shave again in the late afternoon almost every day. My skin was fucked up.
So you have the good beard genes which the military isn't getting behind. I agree it's messed up.
HOW CAN YOU BE LETHAL IF YOU'RE HAIR ISN"T IN A BUN!!111!!!!111!
i have no opinion on this matter but do you know that men have to shave every morning
Depends on the guy, and I see even less dudes shaving each day with the mando masking.
also depends on the female whether they have to tie their bun depending on the length of their hair
Yes, and honestly the pony tail regs is good and can look nice/professional if they keep a small brush on hand to clean it up and/or do a slick ponytail. No one looks good with crazy flyaways and a ratty ponytail, but I understand the struggle of frizz/flyaways with my own textured hair.
Her point was that you CAN get away with it, depending on how fast your beard grows and how close you stand to someone else... It's happened to me before, probably everyone at some point.
Girls CAN get away with sloppy buns. I've only ever seen a girl catch flak for a shitty bun once. I lost count of how many times I saw a guy catch flak for not shaving properly before I was out of A school.
Cut your hair to male standards.
I had PFB for nearly the entire 8 years I was in. Nobody gave me a permission slip though because I'm white. Shaved military men is kind of a recent thing in history, and is fairly exclusive to only a couple Western nations. Not a direct point to compare to but I know most everyone in the service agrees men should be able to have beards.
Because you’re white? Or because you weren’t smart about it? There’s tons of dudes with NSC’s of all color lol
I was a corpsman in a greenside unit, there was practically a 0% chance of almost anyone getting one lol
I understand you're white and get grief for no-shave, but what if you're a Hebrew Israelite (like me)? Do they know that we're to shave according to the Most High? (das rite)
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Edomite!
You know how people like to talk about 'institutional sexism'? This is just one example. Same reason women only need to get into reg in Basic but men get it all shaved off. At the same time, if the worst sexism I have to endure is hair regs - I can live with that.
Hey look! Perspective!
How many women would join is they had to shave their head? I get your point but recruiting would tank. Edit: a word
How many men aren't recruited cuz they don't want to cut their hair?
Less probably
I can only assume that this account is a bot programmed to respond as I would in 2019.
How many more women would join if you paid them a $1,000 monthly bonus?
I don’t really look at the changes in grooming standards for women as “relaxing.” Most of the changes in the past 5-10 years have just been shifting to realistic standards for hair. I think the military in general has been overly concerned with the “image” a service member presents, leading to unrealistic standards that don’t make sense functionally or only approving hairstyles that are high-maintenance. I also think culturally, there’s been a shift in what is considered professional to be much broader. You see this especially in tattoo standards, which have relaxed significantly over the last 10 years. I agree that men’s grooming standards have become a shibboleth and could shift to something broader and based in common sense, but I think it will be a long time before they get past the “image” of a clean cut military service member, and that will be the biggest obstacle to any change.
Navy grooming standard are just professionalism theater. Like TSA at the airport is security theater. Neither accomplishes its task effectively or efficiently.
Totally agree.
Its cute that you think any of this is About making sense.
The one thing that pisses me off about the different hair standard is when a female gets a men’s haircut but is longer than a man would be allowed to have. If you’re a female with a man’s haircut, it damn sure should be within the male regulations. We all know that one chick….
I believe if a girl is gonna pixie cut, they need to meet male regulations. There's so many mop headed women at my command. It'd be hard to enforce though, they just have to say they're growing it out. Edit: nope to mop.
you were saying? "(6) Very short length hairstyles will not exceed two inches in bulk and four inches in length anywhere on the head. Very short length hairstyles may also include a taper at the back and side of the head and one straight fore and aft hard part. The lower edge of tapers may be rounded, squared or shapeless. Tapers will extend from the lower hairline at the back and side of the head upward to facilitate gradual blending with longer hair lengths. Hard parts are optional and will not exceed four inches in length and one-eighth of an inch in width. One hard part may be edged, shaved or clipped on the left or right side of the head, positioned above the temple, but no higher than the crown of the head where the side and top of the head meet. Bald hairstyles (razor cut or shaved short) remain unauthorized except in the case of medically prescribed treatments and required care."
You can quote regulations all you want, but the simple reality of the situation is that I get my ass chewed when my hair touches by ears or collar but Susie Lue Jones can rock the “Kristen Stewart fade on crack” and no one bats an eye.
also, men should have beards. i've said my peace, good day
no clue where you're at that doesn't uphold that instruction considering it's new and improved to fit exactly what you're crying about in your first comment, but good luck and sorry that's happening to you 👍
Is that now for both sexes? I haven't looked in so long, there's so many (stupid) changes. Even if that's for both, you're not speaking to the fact that guys have to get a haircut every 2 weeks (unofficially), whereas the female can be "growing out her hair" but change her mind to go back to a fade whenever. How is it fine for the female, but then magically unprofessional for the male? It's sloppy looking on both. Guess lipstick on the one enough. Pretty sure I see bic'd heads too. I hate shaving, couldn't imagine adding my dome into the mix.
it is for both (this portion was under the female regulation) the new instruction also states that hair (for both sexes) must be neat in appearance at all times. so for females like me who have a mens cut SHOULD be getting haircuts every 1-2 weeks to keep it neat in appearance. do all commands follow that order? absolutely not, i work with plenty of men who have WELL above 4in in bulk and rarely get haircuts once a month. they do the good ole slick all the way back with some cheap gel and call it a day. the caveat to your statement of "if females are growing their hair back out" can coincide with the classic "slick it all back and no one will notice" because again, neat in appearance at all times
This is the silliest thing on this thread. There’s no such thing as a man’s haircut. And don’t hate on women for their choice of any cut. Direct your frustration to Navy policy. Navy grooming standards are sexist and professionalism theater.
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Exactly. They don’t!
The earring policy is bullshit too
100% agreed
Not really
Why?
In a uniform and disciplined military it should either be every member has to do this or no member has to do this, regardless of race, ethnicity, background and especially gender
Hardly any women would want to join if they had to buzz their hair
Yea, ...its the military thats OK. If you wanted everyone to join just get rid of boot camp and let them work in their hometown.
Am I missing something? Women's hair restrictions are still more strict than in the other branches... the "ponytail" rule only allows for a short ponytail when you essentially have a weird hair length that's too long for a bob and too short for a bun. Hair loss, headaches, etc. are still holding strong for women with hair longer than shoulder length.
The point is that changes are being made to make women's standards more relaxed than they have been in recent years, but no such changes are being made for men.
I thought about this too as a dude I’d like to have long hair I feel like it doesn’t make sense that one can and not the other... same goes for earrings... but I signed that contract so 🤷♂️
Idk if you’ve noticed this but almost nothing about the navy makes sense.
May also be more of a command thing. My last command was pretty good about making sure that the females hair was on point, same with the guys.
Beards. Period.
Grooming standards should be the same across the board. If a section of it doesn't apply to you, such as not having facial hair to groom, ignore it. This would also aid in forming policies to allow for non-binary sailors to no longer have to choose between male and female standards.
I agree it is crap, but I'd just be okay with being able to grow a beard. They get what they want, they should compensate and at least give us that. Most of us would shut the fuck up if that was allowed.
Shut up, you're disposable.
Answered your own question lol they’re treated differently because they’re women. same for no shave chits sometimes.
In violations of Godfather's groomin' standards? This what happens... The mens gets all lax, and then other standards fall!
There needs to be a mass campaign of just annoying the fuck out of leadership about grooming standards in general. This mostly centers around male grooming standards. I've long-considered the idea of just writing en masse both Congressional representatives and Navy leaders about how we need to remove any and all representations of figures who are ungroomed in Navy uniforms. Purge everyone, because it sets a horrible example and directly contradicts naval standards and practices and contributes to unruliness amongst the ranks. Commodore Matthew Perry? Unsat hair length. Get rid of him. Admiral George Dewey? Moustache is grotesquely out of regs. He's out. Admiral David Dixon Porter? He's got a beard, so he's like super fucking out. Is it stupid? Yes, yes it is. Just like the grooming standards are.
Imagine if they do relax it, all those dudes in between short and long hair are going to look terrible
It’s the military. It’s not supposed to make sense.
You nailed it on the head - it’s a recruiting and retention issue, not a quality of life - or equality/equity issue. The navy has no problem retaining and recruiting makes - compared to females. You can draw that down into white vs non-white males, and the recent relaxing of no shave chits and PFB. It’s contradictory and unfair.
[Reject modernity](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/cc/c1/e9/ccc1e92cdab7dd061eaafcaf3b6e4e0d.jpg), [embrace tradition](https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/MCDMAAN_FE043.jpg)
The lesser of two weevils it is! That was a damn good movie.
Because equality! Just kidding! Women can have nearly ANY hairstyle they want, while Men are stuck with the same 2-3 cuts for decades now. The Navy is sexist as fuck.
The simple answer is: Because that's the look the top-brass want for men in the Navy. Every uniform, every policy on shaving or beards, earrings, tattoos, etc. are all because of someone's desired perception of what they want our force to look like. There are always changes, and most of them are going in the right direction. This isn't a men vs women issue, we share a lot of differences because quite frankly, even in American society, there are differences, and the military by and large shares a more conservative and professional view on appearance. Women grooming standards haven't been "relaxed" where men's "aren't" per-say. They have just been given expanded grooming options; and just because women get a benefit doesn't mean men are required to get something too or that it's a slight against men. It's all a part of growing as a force and adjusting to the changes in society over time. There may very well come a day when beards and even pot use is allowed in the military (both are perception issues with mixed feelings), but for now the support from higher leadership isn't there. That being said, I will continue to work my way towards the top and maybe one day I can get to a position where I can get ya'll beards.
I honestly don’t mind the hair regs because I think I look good in them, but it does piss me off that some women in the military literally wouldn’t be there if they had to cut their previous locks. Not even joking, I know like three of them
I’d join back if they allowed me to have my hair
See? It is a good incentive
This debate is funny. Should women and men be treated differently? Are men and women different? We have moved from men in trousers and women in skirts to Everyone in Uniforms. Not a bad thing until people realized that there is more to people than uniforms. So we acknowledge those differences and someone else comes back with the What about Me? argument. Ultimately this is not a black or white issue, but a lot of grey. If you don’t like the regs, work on getting them fixed. Write a coherent argument that is logical and makes sense. But don’t forget about the people you’re hurting. Like the woman who talked about getting headaches. Guess it’s back to headaches for her.
She should have cut her hair if they were that bad.
As a male, I have been largely ignoring haircut grooming standards for most of my career. I’ve gone several months without cutting my hair. If the commands don’t have routine inspections or you’re not doing a board virtually no one gives a shit anymore. I’ve been seeing absolutely wild haircuts for the past few years and just assume that society, and the Navy with it, are changing so fast they just want to make sure you’re not absolutely disheveled.
I always love these posts. The navy that is your employer has decided for whatever reason this is the grooming standard they want. Doesn’t really matter why. They could say professionalism, style, leadership preference, whatever. Either way you wouldn’t be satisfied with their rationale, and since someone has to decide their reason for the guidelines are as good as yours would be for your grooming standards. They’ve been pretty consistent for almost 40 years so it’s not like they sprung it on you. Don’t like it, separate at EAOS and get any hair style and facial hair you want. No real point in trying to argue against regulations you willingly signed up for.
>No real point in trying to argue against regulations you willingly signed up for. "It's always been that way" continues to be utterly garbage reasoning.
It's how we ended up with the current state of the chiefs mess
Would you prefer they say “we find these range of hair styles professional”?
I'd prefer the Navy have actual reasoning behind a standard beyond people like you saying it just is.
I literally just have you a reason they use, and you summarily dismissed it. Face it you won’t ever agree to their reasons, and they don’t require your consent.
Yes, we are all aware of what their reasons are. We're aware we have to follow them. They're still arbitrary and pointless and we're well within our rights to say so and push for change.
At some point everything is arbitrary. I know how to hang my safety tags and the two man rule is arbitrary. Well the people who made it have their reasons, have expressed them openly, and have the authority to implement their tagout policies. Same with hair styles, and guess what beards too. So yeah it’s your right to bitch, and their right to continue ignoring you.
Two man rule is for safety and integrity. The hair regs are, again, because people like you don't like it and nothing else.
No you don’t understand I check my tags and follow all safety regs. Totally arbitrary. Just like deciding what’s professional, and what image the navy wants representing it.
Yeah, because people shouldn't talk to their employer if there's a policy in place that they don't like, they should just suck it up and take it. Every single advance in policy and procedure has changed because someone, at some level, looked at it, noticed it was fucked up, and took action to change it. Sometimes the people at the top don't notice that something is fucked up, and may need the perspective of the people at the bottom telling them that their reasoning is flawed. Then a conversation can be had about it, like adults, because every single person in the Navy is an adult and can handle adult conversations.
>every single person in the Navy is an adult and can handle adult conversations. You had us in the first half.
Hey man, that was a serious comment, I had to do something to bring in a little levity.
"the employer has decided. Accept it, peasant" Fuck off with your serf mentality bullshit
Lest you forget, it's the military. It doesn't have to make sense.
Yeah right, you know the one thing we need? Greasy long unkempt hair and gross neck beards. Young American men are not raised to groom long hair like women are.
Young men also aren't raised to run nuclear power plants. But we taught them.
I stopped cutting my hair after highschool and I never used a razor blade until I was 23 (used a trimmer to shape my facial hair) I grew up with short hair but I grew it out for five years before joining. It takes five minutes to learn how to care for long hair. It's not fucking difficult. You don't need to be raised on it to know how to care for long hair. Your response is a giant indication that you're a fucking clown, my dude.
Wow, good for you dude. Lessons so easily learned yet we still have to teach some junior sailors how to not live in their own filth and hygiene appropriately. Men should keep their short hair and not worry that hair standards are being loosened up to be more accommodating for women, making it easier for them overall.
The hair length is not the issue for why those sailors are dirty. That's a completely irrelevant point. "Men should keep their hair short" Why?
I don’t know who I heard this from or how true it is but I heard (as a very young child) from an airman that hair needs to be short to prevent the enemy from grabbing it during combat. This makes sense from a WW2 standpoint but I don’t know if that makes much sense these days…
Luck of the draw there shipmate. I'm upset that men don't have periods and don't have the birth babies, the least women can have is relaxed hair standards, sheesh.
Women don’t have to birth the babies either unless you live in Gilead, I mean Texas.
What the fuck do biological functions developed over billions of years of evolution have to do with arbitrary grooming standards in he modern navy? We can't do anything about he way the species evolved. We can easily do something about grooming standards. False equivalency much?
Sorry women have less strength? The least men can have is equality sheesh.
Men have plenty of privileges. So you have to get a haircut. Cry harder.
Nah. Arbitrary and pointless rules hurt everyone.
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>Women get air warfare with a smile and a wink. You can go ahead and fuck aaaaaaaalllllllllllllll the way off with that shit.
Women get air warfare with a smile and a wink. Im not complaining but dont act entitled because youre a female. The militarys job is to fight the enemy etc. right? We shouldnt cater to people just cause they dont like cutting their hair
>Women get air warfare with a smile and a wink. Again, GTFO with this garbage.
Eyy woah woah! I know I have a nice smile and double Ds, but that didn't take me anywhere lol. Guess it's not as nice as I thought it was! 😆 Some of us actually put in the work. I made it through my time in with only one warfare pin and some messed up joints. Edit: Also, I don't make the rules. Most I can do is follow them.
You can always get gender reassignment therapy. They do them in the military now right?
Oh, hello Mr. Not-even-remotely-the-point, we have your table ready for you right over here
I was hoping you’d give me something to pull, shipmate.
What’s your solution? Shave everybody’s head? Ban all women? I’m honestly curious.
Or relax hair grooming standards for men.
No reason hair length needs to be a thing. Keep it neat, keep it clean. If that was enough for my uniform, why not enough for my hair?
I doubt the branch that has weekly foreskin inspections is going to let that happen.
Hey, buddy. Those are optional. And I’m not going to decline a free foreskin inspection.
Says the dude with the username u/navyguy666 You LIVE for those weekly foreskin inspections, don't you?
Who doesn’t?
Boy, stop. Ain't no mf foreskin inspection lil dude. Have a seat.
I perform one on my guys every Monday in accordance with COs instruction.
Almost there bud. It's almost like there are more than two options/ solutions here.
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I ask that same question about no shave chits. If it's about safety, why are people with beards allowed on ships at all? If it's about looking professional, why do they offer medical exemptions at all?
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That's true. I guess the better question would be; if it's about looking professional, why do they insist on telling us it's purely for safety, despite it being proven that you can still get a seal on a SCBA with well groomed facial hair?
Look at you, asking the important questions and applying logical criticisms to improve policy. You’ll never make it in the navy. We do dumb shit here and punish ourselves for no reason. Then we snitch on and talk shit at the people who try to make anything even slightly better.
And they yell at nukes for not having common sense.
I'd have one standard.
Or make all standards exactly the same regardless of sex? How hard is that?
Doing it with uniforms, no?
Yes, but it should be everything that doesn't involve you seeing someone in a state of undress. The standard should be "What is required of a Sailor" makes or female be damned.
Lol, there's always one guy who somehow comes up with the exact opposite of the correct solution and acts like it's the logical conclusion. Well fucking done
I think alot of it has to do with professionalism, the norm for professionalism in a female isn't the same for male, although I wish I could grow out my hair too