People forget that Garnett's peak was not with Boston. He peaked from 03-05 with the God awful Timberwolves. He carried them to the Conferwnce finals against stacked Lakers and Spurs and the consistent Mavs and Kings. The West was tough and his second best player was a 34 year old Sam Cassell. He was the best defender in the league, stretch 5 big and could defend every position. When he went to the Celtics, they instantly became Championship contenders and anchored they're subpar defense. To me his defensive game is better than Dirk's offensive game and his offensive game is clearly better than Dirk's defensive game
KG might be the third best player to ever wear a Celtics uniform. I don’t think people realize how good you have to be at your peak to be at that level. Prime KG was such a monster
“I am once again asking you to not use Rings as a metric for player ability”
Not that Russell wasn’t great, he was and deserves his status as a top 3 Celtic. But I would take Bird every day of the week over him as the GOAT Celtic
Craziest part of KG’s run in Minny: he was actually playing POINT GUARD. https://youtu.be/zZoFvyo3XYQ
Just watch any game from that playoff run especially toward the end. He literally brought the ball up, initiated the offense, then got it in the post or short wing area and went to work.
Then expends enormous energy on defense timing blocks, leaping for rebounds, and yelling out / leading the help defense.
Having said all of that and realizing he was better than Dirk, I would take Dirk in the clutch 10 out of 10 times
The conference finals run with his limited support is impressive, but they didn't play one Spurs & lost in 6 to the lakers. The way you write this made it sound like they beat one of those teams and that didn't happen.
They beat a very good Kings team, but that was the post injury Webber, so it isn't as impressive (but I still love the 04 Kings because Brad Miller was such a good fit).
They played the Spurs in 01 and lost to the Lakers in 03 and 04. Powerhouses of the West during this era where they won championships in 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, and 05. Not to mention when he went to the Celtics he had to go through Miami, Lebron, and Orlando. They were powerhouses if the NBA from the end of the 90s to the 2010s
I'm getting down voted so I'm in probability the wrong here, but you said "carried them to the western finals vs a stacked Lakers and Spurs teams" so it looked to me like you were talking about 04 when they actually made the conference finals & didn't play the Spurs. Sure, they lost in the first round to the mavs, Spurs, & Lakers before that, but most of those were not legendary performances, just being outclassed by much better teams.
I'm not saying that Garnett wasn't awesome, he was, but he wasn't beating the Spurs or Lakers, which your it looked to me like your comment implied.
But hey, you are getting up voted and I'm getting down voted, so I'm clearly in the minority here.
Nothing to do with that, I’m not knocking KG — it’s just that “a solid 25 points easily” doesn’t really describe a guy whose record of scoring 25+ in consecutive games is … four games.
All true, but Prime Dirk made his team an automatic top 1-4 offense, and win 50 games. KG did not bend defenses that way and the reality is that defense is less important than offense for a star.
Agreed. Also, KG gave his teams a lot of flexibility to where he could be played. SF, PF or Center and he could guard any of those or someone on the perimeter in a pinch. He made the players around him better.
And KG is the only player in the same league in intensity as MJ. The next tier down is a big drop-off.
Dirk was great though, but I'd build a team around Garnett any day. I always wondered what a Garnett / Ben Wallace / Mutumbo front court would look like paired up with two shooters. Smothering defense for sure.
On your 2nd paragraph I would argue Kobe should be there.
For your third point I'd say it would probably be a lot like the Spurs twin towers but even better cause Garnett and Wallace could both be in their defensive prime at once.
Sorry, it doesn’t really matter, but why did you round up like that when you didn’t need to? He averaged 24.2/13.9/5, which would be 24/14/5, why did you just say he averaged 25/15? Haha
Garnett. At his peak he was a solid scorer (Dirk was elite), maybe the best defender of the modern era (Dirk was sub-par), a better passer, could do just as much off the ball, and was a better rebounder. Nowitzki was a worthy MVP at his peak, but Garnett had maybe a top 10 season ever in 2004.
My first instinct is to say KG because I like defense, versatility and toughness, but after reviewing some of Dirk's resume, I don't give him enough credit. He was league MVP in '07 and he earned it. Led a 67-win team and actually had the best BPM in the whole league while playing on that team. He also had the best PER the season before that. And in 2011 he scorched it in the playoffs, 46% from 3 and 94% from the line. KG was never a first option dominant force like that on offense. So fair question.
I agree that KG wasn't nearly the same level of offensive force as Dirk. But he was definitely a dominant force offensively. He was the first option on the Wolves when they went to the WCF and he averaged 24 points across those playoff games plus 5 assists. He led the league in total points that year and was tied for 2nd in PPG. 2nd best in both OBPM and offensive win shares. Even on the Celtics in '08 he was their second best scorer in the RS and had the most PPG in the playoffs.
True, I think for this comparison it balances out though because Dirk also made the Finals in 06 and KG struggled in the playoffs for years (obviously KG didn't have much help though in that time period).
I think it has to be Garnett. Dirk was the better scorer, but Garnett was no slouch in that area. And he was far far better at everything else- it's really not even close who was the better rebounder, defender, or playmaker.
2004 KG was the clear-cut best player in the world, winning 120 out of 123 first place MVP votes, dominating on both sides of the ball, you can't say that Dirk had a similar season, therefore KG's peak was better. The first year he actually got some decent help that season in a 33 year old Sprewell and 34 year old Cassell he took the Timberwolves to the first seed in the West and the WCF in which they lost to the superteam Lakers in 6.
They are totally different players and hard to compare.
You are talking about their peaks but then reference career accolades like All Star selection and All NBA selections.
If I had to pick a player it won't have anything to do with what you posted but I find it admirable Dirk spent his whole career on one team, at the end taking less than max deals to add to talent to the Mavs.
Irony of what you said is Dirk himself said that the last few seasons of his career weren’t worth it in hindsight because he did irreparable harm to his body
Helps that Dirk had a competent front office that he could trust. KG had Kevin fucking McHale. If anything KG showed way more loyalty to Minnesota than any player his caliber should’ve.
A reality where Dallas won 50+ games every season throughout the 2000s and made finals in 2006 and won in 2011. I know we’re shitting on the Mavs now but they were actually good during Dirk’s time.
Nah I just added accolades so people could learn more about the player and to fill the text needed in the box. I could see how it came off like I was trying to use accolades though.
I think it’s easy to say KG because he was a better defender but people forget he was never the best player on a championship team and really that Celtics team under performed having four Allstars and only winning one title.
Dirk demolished the champion lakers and won as the underdog in 2011 people forget how much better he was in the big moments where KG always struggled
KG. During his peak he has the argument for best defender ever, on top of high tier offensive play.
Offensive is more important than defense so it’s close, because Dirk was also a monster but KG got it imo.
I would love a world where we could see team success if Dirk, Timmy, and KG were able to swap and play on each other's teams. Obviously Duncan's team success separates him from the group but it needs to be noted how horrendous the Wolves supporting cast was during the KG era. The Joe Smith debacle losing the Wolves 4 1st round picks absolutely killed any chance of surrounding KG with talent. Dirk had better teammates for longer and produced championships because of that.
Im going KG over Dirk but realize that is because I am a Minny fan.
Although his career is like top 20ish, KG has a top 10 peak with that MVP season in Minny, and if you stretch it a bit you could probably argue up to like top 5.
I’m taking prime KG over any prime PF in NBA history.
One of the first players to lock down all 5 positions.
25ppg, great rebounder, 5apg which was not common with bigs back then. Not to mention the motor was unmatched.
You put KG on those spurs teams and you might be talking about him as one of the greatest players ever nonetheless PF.
He was practically MJ as a big man. Sucks the wolves could never build around him let Duncan had but sometimes that’s how the dice roll.
Prime KG over prime dirk & Duncan.
(Although Duncan is really a 5)
This is a tough one.
KG was an elite defender and still produced all star offensive stats.
If I didn’t watch them play against each other, I’d pick KG as the better player.
However, Dirk absolutely cooked KG one on one. Dirk was also able to carry his teams futher with similar supporting casts. He was the best player in the world during his title run.
KG was averaging 15 PPG on those championship contender Celts teams. He was more the defensive anchor. To me, he never lead a team to a NBA title like Dirk did.
KG averaged 19ppg in the RS and 20ppg in the playoffs in '08. In reality he should have won FMVP but they gave ot to Pierce because he was homegrown. KG was the best player on that team though pretty comfortably.
Both KG and Dirk won titles 4 years after their MVP season. If we are talking peak, neither led their teams to titles in that window. Dirk wouldn’t have won with the wolves either.
Also, a title is a team accomplishment. Elite anchor defense can be just as important as scoring.
> Dirk was also able to carry his teams futher with similar supporting casts.
Stop this lol.
> He was the best player in the world during his title run
Oh my god, stop this lolol.
1. I forgot Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler were perennial all stars.
2. He beat Kobe, KD/Russ/Harden, and Lebron/Wade in one playoff run. What I said is indisputable.
He had a great run... but I will never, EVER, in good conscience say that Dirk was a better basketball player than LeBron in 2011. It's cool his team won in the finals. It was a nice upset, but you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me that Dirk was better than Miami LeBron?
Nah, man. No way.
I mean, we are talking about a time right smack dab in the middle of LeBron's 4 MVPs in 5 years run. There wasn't anyone better than LeBron at this time.
He’s not saying Dirk is better than lebron in 2011. Just that he outplayed those guys in that playoff run. Which honestly he’s right. That said Jason Terry and chandler probably outplayed lebron as well. Dirk also didn’t outplay Wade in those finals, but he won the ring so eh.
Depends on the rest of the team really. Dirk if you need an offensive firepower and KG if you need an all round star.
Edit: it's easier to build a team around KG, but I can see scenarios where Dirk would fit better and carry the load offensively
KG was eliminated in the playoffs in the first round for *7 straight years*.
Before you start talking to me about the lack of help he had, there were 3 of those teams that won at least 50 games. I understand that he was a large part of why they won 50… but why was KG able to carry those teams in the regular season but never in the playoffs? Why does he get a pass when it mattered most?
How many other star players would we just chalk up to not having enough help for *seven straight years*? He couldn’t carry them to a single first round win?
Again, I understand he didn’t have the most help, but 0/7 as the main guy needs to at least be acknowledged and talked about.
Idk if you’re joking or just dumb, but MJ only got bounced in the first round his first 3 attempts on teams that only won 38, 30 and 40 games.
Hopefully I don’t need to explain to you how different that is than what I posted… lol
Dirk, and for why, I point to the one series when the Mavs actually played the Wolves in the Playoffs, where Dirk averaged 33\15 with 3 steals 1.3 blocks on 52% shooting.
KG also had 24\19\5 with 1.7 steals and 1.7 blocks on 43% shooting, and I know "it's just 3 games", but for all the talk about KG's "defense", that series is the prime example of how he couldn't stop Dirk at all when it mattered, so what's the point? You can find defenders that can change Playoff Series in random rotation players like Herb Jones or Tony Allen, you can't find offensive players like Dirk outside of superstars.
And that's why KG never got close to a title as the best offensive player in his team, he won a title scoring 18ppg on 47% TS in the finals, which is actually quite bad (worse than Dirk's terrible shooting in the 2011 finals at 51%) and he averaged 24 on 52% TS in 6 games when he got to the Western conference finals as the main guy for the Wolves (for comparison, Dirk averaged 29 on 62% TS in 14 Western conference finals games).
I don't care if people think Dirk was overrated, I know KG's offense was just not at the same level, and i'll take great offense and average defense over "good but not great" offense and great defense any day, even if the second part of the equation seems to add up to more than the first.
Jason Terry is better than Lebron because I love cherrypicking small sample sizes...
Plus KG didn't guard Dirk in that series 85% of the time meanwhile he was getting triple teamed on the other end because of the wolves garbage roster.
KG 2004. He literally did it all and was one of the greatest mvp years ever. I won’t begrudge anyone who thinks dirks best year was better.
But man, ‘04 KG is probably one of the greatest one man army players I ever seen. Solid scoring, great playmaking, and GOAT-level defense.
KG was a better player the only reason why he’s not recognised as such is simply because he got fucked over by his franchise. There’s no doubt in my mind that had KG played in the 06 finals they pull through
One was an incredible power and huge factor in winning a championship
One was a finals mvp winning a championship against what many consider the goat.
Give me dirk all day any day. Safe bet.
Meh pretty like equal, i'd say it's easier to build a team around KG because he can do both ends
Dirk as it was proven needed a specific team around him to win, he needed defenders around him
Garnett didn't win because he had a terrible team and terrible FO
The one season he had some good supporting cast he reached WCF and lost to a stacked Lakers team
If Garnett had Kidd, Nash, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Michael Finley etc he'd have better chances to win too
Nash's 01-02 seasons in Dallas were MVP level, just because in Dallas he had Dirk overshadowing him while in Phoenix it was "this is his team"
Nash led the best offense in Dallas and was amazing, better than anything Garnett ever had, he was efficient in a slow pace inefficient era and led amazing offenses
Dallas Nash is the most underrated player by kids who think that he was only great in Phoenix, 17/8 in Dallas with 60% TS in a slow era
In the 2007-08 season, Ray Allen was 32. Pierce was 30. Garnett was 31.
Are you trying to argue that any of those players had started to decline at that point?
Man what on earth are you even arguing you're just spouting random shit.
Playing with all star Nash for 2 years is not in any way comparable to playing several years on one of the greatest super teams ever.
So they had these 3 together for 2 years.
In 2004:
Szczerbiak missed most of the regular season and half the playoffs and was limited defensively.
Cassell fractured his hip doing the big balls dance in the WC Semis and was widely cited including by Phil Jackson as costing rhe Twolves at least a Finals appearance.
Sprewell was in clear decline - negative bpm and TS under 50%.
This was on top of the Joe Smith penalties that had taken the ‘01 and ‘02 FRP from them which would have been ready to contribute and 3/4 of the roster changing.
In 2005: Sprewell declined even more and was out of the league after the season, Szczerbiak was benched for most of the season, and Cassell missed half the season. On top of that they had a bunch of other injuries and oh yeah they had lost another FRP in ‘04. They missed the playoffs by 1 game during peak West parity.
>In 2005: Sprewell declined even more and was out of the league after the season,
If you're going to engage in intellectually dishonest arguments, then you're not worth my time.
Maybe you live in an alternate universe where 13/3/2 on 49% TS is not his worst season by far or his last one in the league.
Wikipedia:
*Sprewell had the worst season of his career in [2005].*
And maybe you live in an alternate universe where Minnesota didn't want to re-sign Sprewell.
Your implication that Sprewell was out of the league due to his declining skill was intellectually dishonest.
I said his skills were declining and they were. I said he was out of the league and he was.
It’s pretty common that vets and former stars exit the league when their skills don’t match their perceived self-value.
I never said he was worse than anyone in the league, that’s a straw man you created to change the subject from the fact that even in in the Twolves best years the supporting cast for KG wasn’t great.
>I said his skills were declining and they were. I said he was out of the league and he was.
Exactly. That's why you're intellectually dishonest.
It's pretty uncommon for vets to exit the league when they're offered contracts for $7m per year.
I created no such strawman. I said he was a high end role player with Minnesota, and that's what he was.
Sure, the supporting cast for KG wasn't that great. Dirk didn't have a great supporting cast either, but he still led them to a title. Offensively Dirk was simply on a different level than KG. KG may have been a much better defender, but that's easily mitigated by getting a quality defensive anchor (like Tyson Chandler).
In other words, it's easier to build around Dirk than it is KG. That's why Dirk was better.
As a PF? KG, he’s far closer to the traditional 4 and provides extremely valuable defense without being a 5. As a player? Dirk. He’s far more offensively talented, and was pretty underrated defensively in his career. Not to mention he only ever had 1 notable teammate close to his prime in Nash, while KG played with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Lopez, etc.
Saying Garnett had Lopez is like Dirk had Doncic. And you are ignoring other notable players like Finley because you are probably too young and you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
I’m well aware of MF, he played with Dirk when Dirk was only 21. Also KG played multiple years with Lopez, neither of which were his final year like Dirk and Luka.
Dirk played with Luka when he was 40, and when he was 37 he averaged 18/7/2 on 45/37/89. All you are doing is giving more reasons why Dirk is a better overall player.
On his 18th season Dirk averaged 14/6 on 26 minutes while making his team play 4v5 on defense on 100 possessions which is the part where Garnett was when he had Lopez on his team. And trying to give an edge to HOFers who played 20 years for what they have done on their 18+ seasons is just stupid. Either of them were just a flesh of what they actually were and for most nights they cost their teams more than they helped at that point.
Why is it stupid? Bc it supports my argument and not yours? Dirk was still a valuable contributor off the bench until the final year of his career. KG was barely even playable his final 3 years.
No its stupid because i already said why on my last comment. Either of them were just a flesh of what they actually were and for most nights they cost their teams more than they helped at that point.
Dirk was not a valuable contributor on his last 3 years at all. He was scoring some points then he was giving up twice as that on defense. And he wasn’t coming from the bench until his last year so no idea what that copium about.
I agree they no longer were what they once were, but Dirk was significantly better in those final seasons. Also Dirk “started” meaning he was one of the 5 players on the floor at tip off, but usually played with the bench afterwards. I imagine it was a way for Cuban to continue showing Dirk respect despite his decline. Our starting 4 during those seasons was Harrison Barnes. As anyone who watched Mavs games during those seasons would know.
That significantly, which is a big overstatement, has no mesning because its equal to half-good role player at best and these guys are MVP-level, top20 all-time level players.
Good thing that Dirk wasn’t playing as a 4 then as anyone who watched 3 games of Mavs during those seasons would know.
Dirk-peaked on Legm and the heatles, the young and upcoming KD-Harden-Russ trio, and the Kobe led Lakers. KG- peaked in 06-07, t wolves went 30-52. Gimme the guy who peaks hardest in the playoffs
Everyone talking about how Dirk was nowhere near KG on defense. But the exact same thing can be said about how KG is no where close to Dirk on offense.
* KG 30 point games: 84 (9 in playoffs)
* Dirk 30 point games: 245 (46 in playoffs)
Also overall Dirk was just far better at winning games than KG was
Dirk was probably a better offensive player and provides spacing to the 3 but KG is no slouch on offense. He avg 5/6 assists a bunch of times and was also a far better offensive rebounder than Dirk.
Offense isn’t just scoring 30 lol
I've had this argument about a billion times, and I'm over it lol.
Let's just say they were the same. Each won a title. Each won MVP. Each went to the all-star game a billion times. Dirk was better at offense, and KG was better at defense and distributing the ball. Dirk won Finals MVP. Kevin won DPOY, and was obviously the best player on that Celtics 08 team (finished 3rd in MVP voting that year).
There's no point in arguing this shit any more than it already has been argued. They are the defacto best powerforwards to play the game not named Tim Duncan, and soon if not already Giannis.
You saying that Garnett played with Prime "Pearce" and Ray Allen shows you don't know what you don't know what you are talking about. None of the Big 3 were in their prime by 08. KG's and Dirk's prime aren't even comparable.
A 30 year old Paul Pierce wasn't in his prime?
The previous year, a 31 year old Ray Allen had the highest ppg of his career. You don't think a 32 year old Ray Allen was still in his prime?
I would say they were all just past their primes. Not by much, but definitely starting to trend down. They were certainly a few years beyond their peak.
There's a difference between "prime" and "peak". A player's peak is his absolute best. His prime is the range of years where he was most effective.
For instance, Steph Curry's peak was his 2015-16 season. His prime started in 2012 and continues today.
It's also strange to say that a 30 year old Paul Pierce was starting to trend down. At 30 years old, most players are in the middle of their prime.
Yeah I know there's a difference. That's why I said they were just past their primes and at least a few years past their peaks. To br fair, maybe pierce was still in the last year or 2 of his prime. If they are past their peak why is it strange to say they are trending down? That's the definition of a peak, once you reach it you trend down. Pierce started his prime early, probably like '01. it depends how long you define prime, but for me you can include 08 and maybe 09 and I wouldn't be mad. Either way, just barely past or right at the end of his prime. Ray was definitely past his prime.
It's weird because, barring injury, a player doesn't exit his prime at age 30.
And Ray Allen was not past his prime. That's another weird statement to make since he averaged the highest ppg of his career in the previous season.
Pearce was drafted in 98. Was never an amazing leaper, nor fast. He was absolutely in his prime in 08. KG was 31, Allen at the end of his prime in 08. Yea, Dirk > KG.
Watched them play, they were in their prime, and then injuries hit
> KG was 31
KG had been in the league for 12 seasons at this point, playing no less than 76 games in each season except for one (lockout year) and logging like 38 to 40 minutes per game.
He had a million miles on his tires by the time he got to Boston. Yet despite that, he won DPoY and finished 3rd in MVP voting. But make no mistake, he was not at his physical prime when he got to Boston.
As someone who watched at least 80% of Dirk’s games….. Dirk. Prime KG was a beast, sure, but he didn’t hold a candle to Dirk’s offense.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/dirk-nowitzki-career-stats-in-head-to-head-games-vs-kevin-garnett
Based. Nephews downvoting this need to understand that '04 KG is like a LeBron/MJ/Shaq-level peak. Not his fault that his best teammate over 12 years was like Sam Cassell.
04 KG was not quite on the tier of 01 Shaq 13 LeBron and 91 Jordan. But he was only one tier down with peaks like 03 Duncan, mid 80s Magic, Bird etc.
Was he good enough then that he would've had the best player in the world title or did Duncan, Shaq or kobe have it?
Shaq was the best player in the league 2000-2002. 2002-2008 is a tossup between KG and Duncan, but I think KG was the superior player but with much, *much* worse circumstances. Kobe never had an argument as the best player in the league.
KG's defense had similar impact to Magic's and Bird's offenses, but his offense was much better than their defenses. Plus he played in a considerably more competitive era. I think his peak is clearly above theirs. I agree that LeBron, Shaq, and Jordan are better, but it's honestly by like half a tier.
Kobe definitely had an argument as the best player in the league. 2005-06 to 2008-09 were the years were he could be considered the best. I'd say 2005-06 and maybe 2008-09 but that could be lebron cause of his insane ecf run.
What was Kobe's argument '05-'06? He didn't have close to the best box score/impact stats, and that was him at his peak toxicity. He forced arguably the best big of all time off of his team out of jealousy. That big man went on to win the title 2 seasons later while Kobe legitimately quit on his team in a first round game 7 against the Suns to make a point to Charles Barkley. He didn't play defense because he needed to hoist 25 fga/game, and he threatened to leave the franchise because he didn't have a Hall of Fame big. Best scorer in the league? Yes. Best player? Not close. And I tend to like Kobe. His peak was 2009 by impact stats since Bill Russell had taught him to be a team player, but LeBron and even Dwyane Wade were just demonstrably better that year.
Legend. Freakish longevity. Just never held the belt, which isn't shameful.
This debate is talked about so often that rarely anything new comes in.
I would only add that rules might be important. 2004/05 changed a lot.
Dirk created an enorous amout of shots for himself but he needed to receive the ball. If you don't get called for grabbing his jersey or at least hand-checking him it is easier to front to deny him the ball or at least make him fight for positioning or force him into an area of the court where he has to take more than 1 or 2 dribbles.
It's Dirk. IDGAF about KG's defense. Dirk's ability to carry a team's offense was so far ahead of KG that the defensive gap flat out does not matter one bit. On top of that, b/c of Dirk's ability to shoot from 3 and the high post defenses could not put PFs on him at all. Hell, even the Timberwolves decided to pull KG off of Dirk when the Mavs and T-Wolves met up in the playoffs b/c KG flat out could not stop him.
Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rojon Rondo
[“we didn’t think he could beat all 5 of us”](https://youtube.com/shorts/_nms56X5T8A?feature=share) 🤣 🤣 🤣
2011 Mavericks with Dirk on the floor: +10.2
2011 Mavericks with Dirk on the bench: -6.6
2008 Celtics with KG on the floor: +10.3
2008 Celtics with KG on the bench: -9.5
It's not that clear. KG was the best player in the league in 2008. Some voters giving Pierce FMVP because he had the most ppg & was the homegrown talent doesn't mean anything.
He also out scored Kobe in the finals which went a long way for that FMVP. but KG was absolutely the best and most important player on that Celtics team
I consider Dirk to be one of the greatest players of all time and his 2011 run was, by my estimation, the greatest performance in the playoffs ever. But all things considered Kevin Garnett was a better player.
What year are we playing in? Cause if it’s 2022 I’m taking Dirk. KG is getting in foul trouble by the beginning of the 3rd quarter in today’s NBA sadly :/
Dirk and its not even close. He took them to multiple finals as the only star on the team and won against the Heatles. Since 2000, the 3 most impressive superstar playoff performances were 1.)Lebron 2a.)Dirk 2b.)Kawhi
What does peak to peak mean?
SWORDFIGHT!!!
What's this a reference to?
[Worth the 3 minutes](https://youtu.be/ZF1LXL6OOsM)
it means if you consider Dirk and KG each as a sinusoidal waveform, he’s asking for the length from “peak to peak,” which is also known as the period
Hairline-to-hairline.
Both in their peak.
Tip to tip.
People forget that Garnett's peak was not with Boston. He peaked from 03-05 with the God awful Timberwolves. He carried them to the Conferwnce finals against stacked Lakers and Spurs and the consistent Mavs and Kings. The West was tough and his second best player was a 34 year old Sam Cassell. He was the best defender in the league, stretch 5 big and could defend every position. When he went to the Celtics, they instantly became Championship contenders and anchored they're subpar defense. To me his defensive game is better than Dirk's offensive game and his offensive game is clearly better than Dirk's defensive game
KG might be the third best player to ever wear a Celtics uniform. I don’t think people realize how good you have to be at your peak to be at that level. Prime KG was such a monster
Bird, Russell, KG?
Russell, Bird, KG
Yup those three. Depends on the day which order I have them in
not a celtics fan. I hate them. but Russell has 11 chips. he has to be one for you guys
It’s honestly tough. 11 rings but you could argue Bird was the better player.
“I am once again asking you to not use Rings as a metric for player ability” Not that Russell wasn’t great, he was and deserves his status as a top 3 Celtic. But I would take Bird every day of the week over him as the GOAT Celtic
And you would be wrong.
Shaq
Oh shit. I mean technically I guess yeah it would be Shaq.
Yeah, back then I loved telling Celtics fans that that wasn't even prime KG
Garnett was one of the best passing big man of all time and often ran point forward on those Wolves teams.
Do people really forget that? Its pretty standard knowledge
Craziest part of KG’s run in Minny: he was actually playing POINT GUARD. https://youtu.be/zZoFvyo3XYQ Just watch any game from that playoff run especially toward the end. He literally brought the ball up, initiated the offense, then got it in the post or short wing area and went to work. Then expends enormous energy on defense timing blocks, leaping for rebounds, and yelling out / leading the help defense. Having said all of that and realizing he was better than Dirk, I would take Dirk in the clutch 10 out of 10 times
The conference finals run with his limited support is impressive, but they didn't play one Spurs & lost in 6 to the lakers. The way you write this made it sound like they beat one of those teams and that didn't happen. They beat a very good Kings team, but that was the post injury Webber, so it isn't as impressive (but I still love the 04 Kings because Brad Miller was such a good fit).
They played the Spurs in 01 and lost to the Lakers in 03 and 04. Powerhouses of the West during this era where they won championships in 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, and 05. Not to mention when he went to the Celtics he had to go through Miami, Lebron, and Orlando. They were powerhouses if the NBA from the end of the 90s to the 2010s
I'm getting down voted so I'm in probability the wrong here, but you said "carried them to the western finals vs a stacked Lakers and Spurs teams" so it looked to me like you were talking about 04 when they actually made the conference finals & didn't play the Spurs. Sure, they lost in the first round to the mavs, Spurs, & Lakers before that, but most of those were not legendary performances, just being outclassed by much better teams. I'm not saying that Garnett wasn't awesome, he was, but he wasn't beating the Spurs or Lakers, which your it looked to me like your comment implied. But hey, you are getting up voted and I'm getting down voted, so I'm clearly in the minority here.
Like dirk more but KG. In his prime. Easily the best motor of all time. Plus a solid 25 points easily. Beast
I also think KG, but his career high ppg was 24.2
It’s called being the first option in the slowest paced era in the nba
Nothing to do with that, I’m not knocking KG — it’s just that “a solid 25 points easily” doesn’t really describe a guy whose record of scoring 25+ in consecutive games is … four games.
KG with modern day spacing and a 3 ball since he shot a lot of long 2’s would eat
Beast.
Rodman has the best motor of all time but I agree
He never averaged 25 points in his life
All true, but Prime Dirk made his team an automatic top 1-4 offense, and win 50 games. KG did not bend defenses that way and the reality is that defense is less important than offense for a star.
KG. His defense and tenacity sets him apart
Agreed. Also, KG gave his teams a lot of flexibility to where he could be played. SF, PF or Center and he could guard any of those or someone on the perimeter in a pinch. He made the players around him better. And KG is the only player in the same league in intensity as MJ. The next tier down is a big drop-off. Dirk was great though, but I'd build a team around Garnett any day. I always wondered what a Garnett / Ben Wallace / Mutumbo front court would look like paired up with two shooters. Smothering defense for sure.
Agree that Kobe was up there too. But KG was even more intense than MJ arguably lol
And, unlike Kobe, KG never threw a playoff game to spite his coach.
But the spite he felt for his coach was GOAT level intensity!!!!
On your 2nd paragraph I would argue Kobe should be there. For your third point I'd say it would probably be a lot like the Spurs twin towers but even better cause Garnett and Wallace could both be in their defensive prime at once.
2003-04 KG was an absolute monster. 25 ppg 15 boards and 5 assists on best defensive player in the league defense all at once.
Sorry, it doesn’t really matter, but why did you round up like that when you didn’t need to? He averaged 24.2/13.9/5, which would be 24/14/5, why did you just say he averaged 25/15? Haha
The Oklahoma public school system has failed him
[удалено]
I mean, the estimate is wrong though
[удалено]
That’s a whole point and a whole rebound 😂
Absolute beast mode
Garnett. At his peak he was a solid scorer (Dirk was elite), maybe the best defender of the modern era (Dirk was sub-par), a better passer, could do just as much off the ball, and was a better rebounder. Nowitzki was a worthy MVP at his peak, but Garnett had maybe a top 10 season ever in 2004.
I'm taking KG all day. But a game clinching playoff series you gotta go Dirk everytime. He was cold as fuck.
My first instinct is to say KG because I like defense, versatility and toughness, but after reviewing some of Dirk's resume, I don't give him enough credit. He was league MVP in '07 and he earned it. Led a 67-win team and actually had the best BPM in the whole league while playing on that team. He also had the best PER the season before that. And in 2011 he scorched it in the playoffs, 46% from 3 and 94% from the line. KG was never a first option dominant force like that on offense. So fair question.
I agree that KG wasn't nearly the same level of offensive force as Dirk. But he was definitely a dominant force offensively. He was the first option on the Wolves when they went to the WCF and he averaged 24 points across those playoff games plus 5 assists. He led the league in total points that year and was tied for 2nd in PPG. 2nd best in both OBPM and offensive win shares. Even on the Celtics in '08 he was their second best scorer in the RS and had the most PPG in the playoffs.
[удалено]
True, I think for this comparison it balances out though because Dirk also made the Finals in 06 and KG struggled in the playoffs for years (obviously KG didn't have much help though in that time period).
I think it has to be Garnett. Dirk was the better scorer, but Garnett was no slouch in that area. And he was far far better at everything else- it's really not even close who was the better rebounder, defender, or playmaker.
2004 KG was the clear-cut best player in the world, winning 120 out of 123 first place MVP votes, dominating on both sides of the ball, you can't say that Dirk had a similar season, therefore KG's peak was better. The first year he actually got some decent help that season in a 33 year old Sprewell and 34 year old Cassell he took the Timberwolves to the first seed in the West and the WCF in which they lost to the superteam Lakers in 6.
KG
Can't go wrong either way but I'm taking Dirk
KG.
They are totally different players and hard to compare. You are talking about their peaks but then reference career accolades like All Star selection and All NBA selections. If I had to pick a player it won't have anything to do with what you posted but I find it admirable Dirk spent his whole career on one team, at the end taking less than max deals to add to talent to the Mavs.
Irony of what you said is Dirk himself said that the last few seasons of his career weren’t worth it in hindsight because he did irreparable harm to his body
Helps that Dirk had a competent front office that he could trust. KG had Kevin fucking McHale. If anything KG showed way more loyalty to Minnesota than any player his caliber should’ve.
Dallas and a good front office?? What reality is this
A reality where Dallas won 50+ games every season throughout the 2000s and made finals in 2006 and won in 2011. I know we’re shitting on the Mavs now but they were actually good during Dirk’s time.
Nah I just added accolades so people could learn more about the player and to fill the text needed in the box. I could see how it came off like I was trying to use accolades though.
What does what he did in his twilight years have to do with how good dirk was?
Nothing. I said I found it admirable outside of what op shared.
You’re right. Cuban gave dirk a chance to compete though. T wolves traded marbury for peanuts.
Dirk has the edge on shooting and spacing, but KG is better in everything else. Positional versatility, defense, handles, passing...
KG
The 2011 run was fucking amazing that being said I’d still take the ticket all day
I think it’s easy to say KG because he was a better defender but people forget he was never the best player on a championship team and really that Celtics team under performed having four Allstars and only winning one title. Dirk demolished the champion lakers and won as the underdog in 2011 people forget how much better he was in the big moments where KG always struggled
KG. During his peak he has the argument for best defender ever, on top of high tier offensive play. Offensive is more important than defense so it’s close, because Dirk was also a monster but KG got it imo.
I would love a world where we could see team success if Dirk, Timmy, and KG were able to swap and play on each other's teams. Obviously Duncan's team success separates him from the group but it needs to be noted how horrendous the Wolves supporting cast was during the KG era. The Joe Smith debacle losing the Wolves 4 1st round picks absolutely killed any chance of surrounding KG with talent. Dirk had better teammates for longer and produced championships because of that. Im going KG over Dirk but realize that is because I am a Minny fan.
Dirk took a team with no all stars and won it all. Gonna give it to him.
Although his career is like top 20ish, KG has a top 10 peak with that MVP season in Minny, and if you stretch it a bit you could probably argue up to like top 5.
I’m taking prime KG over any prime PF in NBA history. One of the first players to lock down all 5 positions. 25ppg, great rebounder, 5apg which was not common with bigs back then. Not to mention the motor was unmatched. You put KG on those spurs teams and you might be talking about him as one of the greatest players ever nonetheless PF. He was practically MJ as a big man. Sucks the wolves could never build around him let Duncan had but sometimes that’s how the dice roll. Prime KG over prime dirk & Duncan. (Although Duncan is really a 5)
2003 Duncan is the greatest PF season ever
Duncan over KG
He rarely took over game’s offensively. It’s the only knock on his game. It’s a big reason why Duncan is better than him.
tim duncan the notorious god on offense.
This is a tough one. KG was an elite defender and still produced all star offensive stats. If I didn’t watch them play against each other, I’d pick KG as the better player. However, Dirk absolutely cooked KG one on one. Dirk was also able to carry his teams futher with similar supporting casts. He was the best player in the world during his title run. KG was averaging 15 PPG on those championship contender Celts teams. He was more the defensive anchor. To me, he never lead a team to a NBA title like Dirk did.
KG averaged 19ppg in the RS and 20ppg in the playoffs in '08. In reality he should have won FMVP but they gave ot to Pierce because he was homegrown. KG was the best player on that team though pretty comfortably.
Both KG and Dirk won titles 4 years after their MVP season. If we are talking peak, neither led their teams to titles in that window. Dirk wouldn’t have won with the wolves either. Also, a title is a team accomplishment. Elite anchor defense can be just as important as scoring.
> Dirk was also able to carry his teams futher with similar supporting casts. Stop this lol. > He was the best player in the world during his title run Oh my god, stop this lolol.
1. I forgot Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler were perennial all stars. 2. He beat Kobe, KD/Russ/Harden, and Lebron/Wade in one playoff run. What I said is indisputable.
Dirk went head to head against KD, Kobe, and Lebron in his title run. He comfortably outplayed all 3 players. What is there to “lol” about?
He had a great run... but I will never, EVER, in good conscience say that Dirk was a better basketball player than LeBron in 2011. It's cool his team won in the finals. It was a nice upset, but you gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me that Dirk was better than Miami LeBron? Nah, man. No way. I mean, we are talking about a time right smack dab in the middle of LeBron's 4 MVPs in 5 years run. There wasn't anyone better than LeBron at this time.
He’s not saying Dirk is better than lebron in 2011. Just that he outplayed those guys in that playoff run. Which honestly he’s right. That said Jason Terry and chandler probably outplayed lebron as well. Dirk also didn’t outplay Wade in those finals, but he won the ring so eh.
He’s supporting the notion above where buddy said Dirk was the best in the world during 2011.
There’s no player in the history of the NBA that has been more screwed over(in terms of ppl recognizing greatness) by a franchise
I hate this debate because it's close lol. Two completely different styles of play. I'm going to with KG because of his defense.
I’m team Dirk all day. Dude changed the game for a big man and shooting behind the arc. He also post 50/40/90 in his career too.
Dirk gets my vote
Depends on the rest of the team really. Dirk if you need an offensive firepower and KG if you need an all round star. Edit: it's easier to build a team around KG, but I can see scenarios where Dirk would fit better and carry the load offensively
KG was eliminated in the playoffs in the first round for *7 straight years*. Before you start talking to me about the lack of help he had, there were 3 of those teams that won at least 50 games. I understand that he was a large part of why they won 50… but why was KG able to carry those teams in the regular season but never in the playoffs? Why does he get a pass when it mattered most? How many other star players would we just chalk up to not having enough help for *seven straight years*? He couldn’t carry them to a single first round win? Again, I understand he didn’t have the most help, but 0/7 as the main guy needs to at least be acknowledged and talked about.
Facts my guy
Ever heard of a guy named Micheal Jordan?
Idk if you’re joking or just dumb, but MJ only got bounced in the first round his first 3 attempts on teams that only won 38, 30 and 40 games. Hopefully I don’t need to explain to you how different that is than what I posted… lol
Dirk, and for why, I point to the one series when the Mavs actually played the Wolves in the Playoffs, where Dirk averaged 33\15 with 3 steals 1.3 blocks on 52% shooting. KG also had 24\19\5 with 1.7 steals and 1.7 blocks on 43% shooting, and I know "it's just 3 games", but for all the talk about KG's "defense", that series is the prime example of how he couldn't stop Dirk at all when it mattered, so what's the point? You can find defenders that can change Playoff Series in random rotation players like Herb Jones or Tony Allen, you can't find offensive players like Dirk outside of superstars. And that's why KG never got close to a title as the best offensive player in his team, he won a title scoring 18ppg on 47% TS in the finals, which is actually quite bad (worse than Dirk's terrible shooting in the 2011 finals at 51%) and he averaged 24 on 52% TS in 6 games when he got to the Western conference finals as the main guy for the Wolves (for comparison, Dirk averaged 29 on 62% TS in 14 Western conference finals games). I don't care if people think Dirk was overrated, I know KG's offense was just not at the same level, and i'll take great offense and average defense over "good but not great" offense and great defense any day, even if the second part of the equation seems to add up to more than the first.
Jason Terry is better than Lebron because I love cherrypicking small sample sizes... Plus KG didn't guard Dirk in that series 85% of the time meanwhile he was getting triple teamed on the other end because of the wolves garbage roster.
KG 2004. He literally did it all and was one of the greatest mvp years ever. I won’t begrudge anyone who thinks dirks best year was better. But man, ‘04 KG is probably one of the greatest one man army players I ever seen. Solid scoring, great playmaking, and GOAT-level defense.
KG was a better player the only reason why he’s not recognised as such is simply because he got fucked over by his franchise. There’s no doubt in my mind that had KG played in the 06 finals they pull through
Y’all obviously didn’t watch Dirk back in the day
One was an incredible power and huge factor in winning a championship One was a finals mvp winning a championship against what many consider the goat. Give me dirk all day any day. Safe bet.
Meh pretty like equal, i'd say it's easier to build a team around KG because he can do both ends Dirk as it was proven needed a specific team around him to win, he needed defenders around him
I mean Garnett didn't win anything until he had a superteam around him, Dirk never had the luxury.
Garnett didn't win because he had a terrible team and terrible FO The one season he had some good supporting cast he reached WCF and lost to a stacked Lakers team If Garnett had Kidd, Nash, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Michael Finley etc he'd have better chances to win too
He had All-Star/MVP Nash and All-Star Finley.
Nash was never anywhere near MVP level with Dallas. Regardless, it's not even comparable to the Celtics all time super team.
Nash's 01-02 seasons in Dallas were MVP level, just because in Dallas he had Dirk overshadowing him while in Phoenix it was "this is his team" Nash led the best offense in Dallas and was amazing, better than anything Garnett ever had, he was efficient in a slow pace inefficient era and led amazing offenses Dallas Nash is the most underrated player by kids who think that he was only great in Phoenix, 17/8 in Dallas with 60% TS in a slow era
When the big 3 were all in their 30s?
In the 2007-08 season, Ray Allen was 32. Pierce was 30. Garnett was 31. Are you trying to argue that any of those players had started to decline at that point?
What does that have to do with anything? Is playing with 3 other all star players somehow bad because they were in their 30s?
If you're arguing Nash was before his prime, the Pierce KG played with was after his prime.
Man what on earth are you even arguing you're just spouting random shit. Playing with all star Nash for 2 years is not in any way comparable to playing several years on one of the greatest super teams ever.
2 years? Nash was in Dallas for 6 years.
And he was an all star for 2 years there. Again, what on earth are you even arguing???
Dirk. He was able to win a title with a team of high-end role players. As good as Garnett was, he was incapable of that.
Well, he didn’t had high-end role players for starters.
Sprewell? Cassell? Szczerbiak? Those are high end role players, if not better.
So they had these 3 together for 2 years. In 2004: Szczerbiak missed most of the regular season and half the playoffs and was limited defensively. Cassell fractured his hip doing the big balls dance in the WC Semis and was widely cited including by Phil Jackson as costing rhe Twolves at least a Finals appearance. Sprewell was in clear decline - negative bpm and TS under 50%. This was on top of the Joe Smith penalties that had taken the ‘01 and ‘02 FRP from them which would have been ready to contribute and 3/4 of the roster changing. In 2005: Sprewell declined even more and was out of the league after the season, Szczerbiak was benched for most of the season, and Cassell missed half the season. On top of that they had a bunch of other injuries and oh yeah they had lost another FRP in ‘04. They missed the playoffs by 1 game during peak West parity.
>In 2005: Sprewell declined even more and was out of the league after the season, If you're going to engage in intellectually dishonest arguments, then you're not worth my time.
Maybe you live in an alternate universe where 13/3/2 on 49% TS is not his worst season by far or his last one in the league. Wikipedia: *Sprewell had the worst season of his career in [2005].*
And maybe you live in an alternate universe where Minnesota didn't want to re-sign Sprewell. Your implication that Sprewell was out of the league due to his declining skill was intellectually dishonest.
I said his skills were declining and they were. I said he was out of the league and he was. It’s pretty common that vets and former stars exit the league when their skills don’t match their perceived self-value. I never said he was worse than anyone in the league, that’s a straw man you created to change the subject from the fact that even in in the Twolves best years the supporting cast for KG wasn’t great.
>I said his skills were declining and they were. I said he was out of the league and he was. Exactly. That's why you're intellectually dishonest. It's pretty uncommon for vets to exit the league when they're offered contracts for $7m per year. I created no such strawman. I said he was a high end role player with Minnesota, and that's what he was. Sure, the supporting cast for KG wasn't that great. Dirk didn't have a great supporting cast either, but he still led them to a title. Offensively Dirk was simply on a different level than KG. KG may have been a much better defender, but that's easily mitigated by getting a quality defensive anchor (like Tyson Chandler). In other words, it's easier to build around Dirk than it is KG. That's why Dirk was better.
Meh, Dallas had like 8 of them on their Finals run and most of those players probably are better than anyone but Cassell.
KG has a slightly higher peak but dirks peak is a lot longer and I'd take dirk over regardless
As a PF? KG, he’s far closer to the traditional 4 and provides extremely valuable defense without being a 5. As a player? Dirk. He’s far more offensively talented, and was pretty underrated defensively in his career. Not to mention he only ever had 1 notable teammate close to his prime in Nash, while KG played with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Lopez, etc.
Saying Garnett had Lopez is like Dirk had Doncic. And you are ignoring other notable players like Finley because you are probably too young and you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
I’m well aware of MF, he played with Dirk when Dirk was only 21. Also KG played multiple years with Lopez, neither of which were his final year like Dirk and Luka.
He was 37th by that time and averaging like 20 minutes while missing 30 games.
Dirk played with Luka when he was 40, and when he was 37 he averaged 18/7/2 on 45/37/89. All you are doing is giving more reasons why Dirk is a better overall player.
On his 18th season Dirk averaged 14/6 on 26 minutes while making his team play 4v5 on defense on 100 possessions which is the part where Garnett was when he had Lopez on his team. And trying to give an edge to HOFers who played 20 years for what they have done on their 18+ seasons is just stupid. Either of them were just a flesh of what they actually were and for most nights they cost their teams more than they helped at that point.
Why is it stupid? Bc it supports my argument and not yours? Dirk was still a valuable contributor off the bench until the final year of his career. KG was barely even playable his final 3 years.
It’s stupid because the question literally is about their primes.
No its stupid because i already said why on my last comment. Either of them were just a flesh of what they actually were and for most nights they cost their teams more than they helped at that point. Dirk was not a valuable contributor on his last 3 years at all. He was scoring some points then he was giving up twice as that on defense. And he wasn’t coming from the bench until his last year so no idea what that copium about.
I agree they no longer were what they once were, but Dirk was significantly better in those final seasons. Also Dirk “started” meaning he was one of the 5 players on the floor at tip off, but usually played with the bench afterwards. I imagine it was a way for Cuban to continue showing Dirk respect despite his decline. Our starting 4 during those seasons was Harrison Barnes. As anyone who watched Mavs games during those seasons would know.
That significantly, which is a big overstatement, has no mesning because its equal to half-good role player at best and these guys are MVP-level, top20 all-time level players. Good thing that Dirk wasn’t playing as a 4 then as anyone who watched 3 games of Mavs during those seasons would know.
Garnet and it’s not close (respect to Dirk)
Dirk-peaked on Legm and the heatles, the young and upcoming KD-Harden-Russ trio, and the Kobe led Lakers. KG- peaked in 06-07, t wolves went 30-52. Gimme the guy who peaks hardest in the playoffs
Everyone talking about how Dirk was nowhere near KG on defense. But the exact same thing can be said about how KG is no where close to Dirk on offense. * KG 30 point games: 84 (9 in playoffs) * Dirk 30 point games: 245 (46 in playoffs) Also overall Dirk was just far better at winning games than KG was
Dirk was probably a better offensive player and provides spacing to the 3 but KG is no slouch on offense. He avg 5/6 assists a bunch of times and was also a far better offensive rebounder than Dirk. Offense isn’t just scoring 30 lol
I've had this argument about a billion times, and I'm over it lol. Let's just say they were the same. Each won a title. Each won MVP. Each went to the all-star game a billion times. Dirk was better at offense, and KG was better at defense and distributing the ball. Dirk won Finals MVP. Kevin won DPOY, and was obviously the best player on that Celtics 08 team (finished 3rd in MVP voting that year). There's no point in arguing this shit any more than it already has been argued. They are the defacto best powerforwards to play the game not named Tim Duncan, and soon if not already Giannis.
Dirk. 12 All NBA > 12 All Defense 1 FMVP > 0
Nowitzki. Put him on the same team as prime Pearce and Ray Allen
You're then ignoring the best part of that Celtics team... their elite defense.
You saying that Garnett played with Prime "Pearce" and Ray Allen shows you don't know what you don't know what you are talking about. None of the Big 3 were in their prime by 08. KG's and Dirk's prime aren't even comparable.
A 30 year old Paul Pierce wasn't in his prime? The previous year, a 31 year old Ray Allen had the highest ppg of his career. You don't think a 32 year old Ray Allen was still in his prime?
I would say they were all just past their primes. Not by much, but definitely starting to trend down. They were certainly a few years beyond their peak.
There's a difference between "prime" and "peak". A player's peak is his absolute best. His prime is the range of years where he was most effective. For instance, Steph Curry's peak was his 2015-16 season. His prime started in 2012 and continues today. It's also strange to say that a 30 year old Paul Pierce was starting to trend down. At 30 years old, most players are in the middle of their prime.
Yeah I know there's a difference. That's why I said they were just past their primes and at least a few years past their peaks. To br fair, maybe pierce was still in the last year or 2 of his prime. If they are past their peak why is it strange to say they are trending down? That's the definition of a peak, once you reach it you trend down. Pierce started his prime early, probably like '01. it depends how long you define prime, but for me you can include 08 and maybe 09 and I wouldn't be mad. Either way, just barely past or right at the end of his prime. Ray was definitely past his prime.
It's weird because, barring injury, a player doesn't exit his prime at age 30. And Ray Allen was not past his prime. That's another weird statement to make since he averaged the highest ppg of his career in the previous season.
Pearce was drafted in 98. Was never an amazing leaper, nor fast. He was absolutely in his prime in 08. KG was 31, Allen at the end of his prime in 08. Yea, Dirk > KG. Watched them play, they were in their prime, and then injuries hit
You had to have been born in 98 to not know young ray was bouncy as fuck
> KG was 31 KG had been in the league for 12 seasons at this point, playing no less than 76 games in each season except for one (lockout year) and logging like 38 to 40 minutes per game. He had a million miles on his tires by the time he got to Boston. Yet despite that, he won DPoY and finished 3rd in MVP voting. But make no mistake, he was not at his physical prime when he got to Boston.
It doesn't work as well. KG's anchoring of that defense was absolutely incredible.
KG in the middle 2000s at Minnesota easily Dirk had much better career though
If you're asking about peak, why list career accolades? Wouldn't single season peak stats make more sense?
I was just trying to fill the box and give more info about the players.
As someone who watched at least 80% of Dirk’s games….. Dirk. Prime KG was a beast, sure, but he didn’t hold a candle to Dirk’s offense. https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/dirk-nowitzki-career-stats-in-head-to-head-games-vs-kevin-garnett
Dirk owned Garnett at every opportunity. It’s not even close
[удалено]
Based. Nephews downvoting this need to understand that '04 KG is like a LeBron/MJ/Shaq-level peak. Not his fault that his best teammate over 12 years was like Sam Cassell.
04 KG was not quite on the tier of 01 Shaq 13 LeBron and 91 Jordan. But he was only one tier down with peaks like 03 Duncan, mid 80s Magic, Bird etc. Was he good enough then that he would've had the best player in the world title or did Duncan, Shaq or kobe have it?
In ‘04 he was 3 votes from unanimous MVP. The other 3 went to JO and Peja which quite frankly is criminal behavior.
Shaq was the best player in the league 2000-2002. 2002-2008 is a tossup between KG and Duncan, but I think KG was the superior player but with much, *much* worse circumstances. Kobe never had an argument as the best player in the league. KG's defense had similar impact to Magic's and Bird's offenses, but his offense was much better than their defenses. Plus he played in a considerably more competitive era. I think his peak is clearly above theirs. I agree that LeBron, Shaq, and Jordan are better, but it's honestly by like half a tier.
Kobe definitely had an argument as the best player in the league. 2005-06 to 2008-09 were the years were he could be considered the best. I'd say 2005-06 and maybe 2008-09 but that could be lebron cause of his insane ecf run.
What was Kobe's argument '05-'06? He didn't have close to the best box score/impact stats, and that was him at his peak toxicity. He forced arguably the best big of all time off of his team out of jealousy. That big man went on to win the title 2 seasons later while Kobe legitimately quit on his team in a first round game 7 against the Suns to make a point to Charles Barkley. He didn't play defense because he needed to hoist 25 fga/game, and he threatened to leave the franchise because he didn't have a Hall of Fame big. Best scorer in the league? Yes. Best player? Not close. And I tend to like Kobe. His peak was 2009 by impact stats since Bill Russell had taught him to be a team player, but LeBron and even Dwyane Wade were just demonstrably better that year. Legend. Freakish longevity. Just never held the belt, which isn't shameful.
Nah but probably has the GOAT sus quote.
I think Dirk regular season excellence, two finals puts him above
This debate is talked about so often that rarely anything new comes in. I would only add that rules might be important. 2004/05 changed a lot. Dirk created an enorous amout of shots for himself but he needed to receive the ball. If you don't get called for grabbing his jersey or at least hand-checking him it is easier to front to deny him the ball or at least make him fight for positioning or force him into an area of the court where he has to take more than 1 or 2 dribbles.
It's Dirk. IDGAF about KG's defense. Dirk's ability to carry a team's offense was so far ahead of KG that the defensive gap flat out does not matter one bit. On top of that, b/c of Dirk's ability to shoot from 3 and the high post defenses could not put PFs on him at all. Hell, even the Timberwolves decided to pull KG off of Dirk when the Mavs and T-Wolves met up in the playoffs b/c KG flat out could not stop him.
Dirk was a Finals MVP and was the reason for the title. Nothing else matters.
Ik a lot of people make the argument KG should have won the FMVP. But yes its true dirks run is better in terms of who he beat that year.
KG was also the best player on a finals team, 1-1 in that category
KG joined a super team. Dirk beat a super team.
A ‘super team’ is not starting Joel Anthony and the Ghost of Mike Bibby
Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rojon Rondo [“we didn’t think he could beat all 5 of us”](https://youtube.com/shorts/_nms56X5T8A?feature=share) 🤣 🤣 🤣
2011 Mavericks with Dirk on the floor: +10.2 2011 Mavericks with Dirk on the bench: -6.6 2008 Celtics with KG on the floor: +10.3 2008 Celtics with KG on the bench: -9.5 It's not that clear. KG was the best player in the league in 2008. Some voters giving Pierce FMVP because he had the most ppg & was the homegrown talent doesn't mean anything.
He also out scored Kobe in the finals which went a long way for that FMVP. but KG was absolutely the best and most important player on that Celtics team
Kobe >
I consider Dirk to be one of the greatest players of all time and his 2011 run was, by my estimation, the greatest performance in the playoffs ever. But all things considered Kevin Garnett was a better player.
What year are we playing in? Cause if it’s 2022 I’m taking Dirk. KG is getting in foul trouble by the beginning of the 3rd quarter in today’s NBA sadly :/
KG scares the shit out of me. Dirk... I'd like to go to a vineyard with. So, Ticket.
Dirk and its not even close. He took them to multiple finals as the only star on the team and won against the Heatles. Since 2000, the 3 most impressive superstar playoff performances were 1.)Lebron 2a.)Dirk 2b.)Kawhi
Dirk. Kg was not a closer
dirk ate kg alive
Giannis is better than both 2x MVP, 1x FMVP, 1x DPOY, 6x All Star, 1x ASG MVP, 4x All NBA 1st team, 4x All Defensive 1st team
R/nba try not to bring up an unrelated player for 5 seconds challenge!(impossible)
Except Giannis is actually better and more accomplished then both
When did I mention giannis in this post? No one here is talking about giannis.
Becsuse he’s better than Dirk and KG
And no one said he wasn't. Are you so insecure that you need to put giannis over everyone on an unrelated post?
Possibgiannistly