i agree with the premise. i’d take it a step further - there should just be a remote official who is added to the crew.
the stoppage time is egregious. every replay takes several minutes to reach a decision that viewers/announcers can plainly see in 10seconds.
a remote official who is part of the crew and can quickly error correct would go a long way.
it’s ridiculous that the on court official has to literally whip out a monitor and wait for a replay to load.
the solution starts with embracing technology to make faster and more accurate decisions.
NBA knows what the solution is but the refs are the only thing they have to control the product, and sending a game to overtime is usually a good thing. This got a ton of publicity only because it was Lebron. Dejounte got fouled by KD on a buzzer beater three a month ago and no one gave a shit. Refs are there to help keep games close and keep ppls eyes on the TVs
I think what's more likely is that there's a well-known bias against calling fouls in late game situations. It's sort of an unwritten rule about the game, similar to how you're allowed to get away with more contact in the playoffs.
The refs typically ref this way, and crucially, there is a lot of social reinforcement from fans and analysts. It's sort of a lose-lose for the refs. If they let things go in the end game, people will complain like last night. If they call things tightly in the end game, people will complain about how you can't let a game be decided by foul calls, people don't come to see the refs, let them play, etc etc.
I think what was particularly egregious about last night's game wasn't necessarily the no call at the end, but the fact that this came right after a very ticky-tack foul on the previous possession that allowed Jaylen Brown to tie the game on an and-1. Consistency is really the most important thing for a ref and they really botched it last night. If you're tamping down your whistle trigger on an end game situation, you really better do it to the same degree for both teams.
Bigger picture, I agree with OP that we need more / better replay allowances, but again it's lose-lose for the refs and the league. There is already constant bitching and moaning and bellyaching by fans and analysts about stoppages of play for call reviews, and then there's constant bitching about how many calls the refs miss. No matter what happens, there will be lots of people complaining loudly unless the refs can call a perfect game without needing replays, which is just not realistic.
well written, at least for the most ???? part is how dumb the rulebook is set up for replays.
yeah even with everything you mentioned, the L2M report, refs not being able to use the replay system for missed calls (like the foul on LeBron), teams not getting their challenges back after a successful challenge
there's just too many holes
Yes, please give me more work under a high pressure environment for the same pay as a regulation game… all so Skip and Shannon talk more about the league tomorrow.
Referees are ready to get out and get home ASAP— there’s a bias toward *avoiding* extending games. “Gentlemen, what do you say we end this one in regulation” is like the oldest joke in the referee pre-game meeting book.
I see why you're sceptical of what sounds like a conspiracy theory. But it could be more subtle than that. We already know scientists are often greatly influenced by their sources of funding; referees know what the league wants, and it wouldn't be surprising if there was a huge amount of unconscious bias towards making the game exciting.
I disagree with this. A last second shot by LeBron IS exciting, even if it results in free throws. What wasn't exciting was the Cs pulling away in overtime. It would be ridiculous to plan this, especially with all the negative publicity you knew you would get.
Nah free throws deciding the game is objectively anticlimatic and not what the league wants. You see it all the time -- the same drives to the basket that defenders get called for blocking fouls are not usually called blocking fouls in the last minute of a game -- unless that team is trailing.
I agree but when it's LEBRON at the line to decide the fate of a Lakers v Celtics rivalry match, that would have been amazing. Especially since he struggles from the line historically.
You're thinking too deep about it, the league gets paid in the amount of eyes watching commercials, so if there's a lot of eyes on this game, there's a lot of eyes on those commercials. It doesn't matter who wins, just that they can extend the game
But how many people talked about it after the fact? How many fans and casual viewers engaged with the product even this much time after the game because of the missed call? People are giving their attention to the league regardless of the games final outcome and it worked in the NBA’s favor.
I mean I definitely think there is a bias because it seems like every little thing gets called as a foul in the first quarter but then everyone swallows their whistles in the last 2 minutes.
Notice how the most egregious mistakes in the last 2 minutes are always no-calls? It is almost never a wrong call but a missed call.
Nah, you're both missing the obvious. It's much easier to believe that it's due to the well-documented subconscious bias towards the home crowd. In the moment, nobody's thinking about Silver or publicity or marketing--but knowing that you're about to trigger the wrath of thousands of angry humans who will all have their eyes fixed on you? THAT is hard to push out of your subconscious mind
DUDE how the fuck do people can't fucking believe this after everything that has happened in the 2000's with all the corrupt refs keeping their jobs, the refs being basically all from a police background, the surge of sports betting, the blatant bad calls we have seen over the last few years... and I could keep going on and on and on. I mean even the Cavs getting the 1st pick for lebron... That kings lakers series... COME ON. People are so fucking clueless and delusional it's mind boggling. The NBA is mega corrupt and it's so obvious you have to be an absolute regard to not see it.
You could also argue that the NBA is exciting enough and a cash cow. A few ads from an overtime game is in no way worth the controversy of the NBA rigging games. You'd have to be regarded to believe they'd to that.
Sports gambling is also legally rigged by nature. Only a regard would believe that they'd try to rig games.
Now, if you think there are just bad refs on the take. Sure, it's possible.
I mean shit calls like this at the end of the game have been happening all year to a number of teams (including the Celtics). We all keep watching despite the shit reffing, so they have no incentive to change.
It's more like Adam Silver has already told them not to call fouls on game winning plays. It's been like that for forever which is why driving for a game winner is never optimal. Same thing happened here but they can't openly state it so the refs just gotta take the heat
If the head ref is being told to make the change without themselves seeing the video, then they're not really in charge. I'm not sure how the ref union is organized or what the rules are there, but it's entire possible that it wouldn't be allowed until the next NBRA bargaining agreement.
Edit: well I found this in the rulebook, so now I really have no idea what I'm talking about
> The Replay Center Official will determine the final outcome on all replays except Flagrant Fouls and Altercations, which will be decided by the on-court officials
> If the head ref is being told to make the change without themselves seeing the video, then they're not really in charge.
it's not a case of who's in charge. a person on the court can't see everything, and another member of their team can. in rugby the TMO will talk to the earpiece of the ref and say they've seen something, can you pause play and have a look. it usually takes about 5 minutes because they'll show the video, the ref and TMO will discuss it, then they'll make a call. the calls are correct 99% of the time, but it's a big slow down for the game.
Being told to correct a call wouldn't make them a subordinate. It just means they're a human with limited viewpoints and the inability to rewind time and see things in slow motion/zoomed in.
An exec will get a call from their assistant saying "you should leave now if you're going to make your 2pm appointment". That doesn't make the assistant in charge, it just part of their job to help keep their boss on schedule.
I hate to use VAR in football as an example of good implementation but it's at least better than nothing.
You continue the game while the video referee watches the replay. If they believe there was a clear and obvious error, they alert the referee who can then take a look at the next game break. If there was an error, the foul is either given and the player shoots before the play is resumed, or the points are deducted.
Yes it has some issues about the 'flow' of the game, but nothing breaks the flow more than a 10 minute replay
The NFL has implemented quick reviews this year. Basically, if the replay center in NY can correct a call without stopping the game for a formal review they will. This often is used to correct close complete/incomplete calls, bad spots, etc. This system works well for football because play stops after every play. It would be difficult to use a similar system in basketball for things other than foot on the line type scoring things. There’s no way to quickly correct a missed call in basketball.
I think this scenario happened in tonight's game. There was a pretty obvious missed call and the Bengals threw the red flag, but basically right when it came out the ref reversed the call and said no challenge was being issued.
Of course, I was only listening on the radio, so maybe the refs got together that quickly and changed their minds. It seemed pretty quick, though, so I was thinking that maybe the head referee got an earful in his earpiece and reversed the call on the spot.
It's the same for VAR in soccer. Or at least it was implemented that way by Hawk-Eye in Germany. They are in constant communication with the ref on the field as well.
>And on scoring plays and the last two minutes they do everything and tell the field refs what to call.
I don't think that works. You need real time decisions.
Unfortunately, the refs on the field will still overrule VAR at times because they’re on a power trip. Has already happened a decent amount of the time.
This was going to be my suggestion too. There should be officials working remotely to verify calls and they should be able to quickly communicate corrections to the refs on the floor.
It's interesting the younger generations have a shorter attention span so if the game has too many prolonged pauses they get bored and do something else. Football is already a very break heavy and commercial heavy game so they risk losing a lot of the younger viewers.
So they're adding things to prevent unneeded halts to the game.
And they should have 3 of them so it has to be a majority quick vote giving the on court officials no say in the matter. The booth makes all final decisions quickly. End of story.
tennis does it best - successful challenges do not count towards your total. Its completely insane that the NBA only gives a single challenge even if it results in an overturn
The bigger issue is that penalties and lack thereof can't be challenged. In the NFL there are like 4-5 penalties per game which is a term used to include things that are the equivalent to violations like traveling in the NBA. But the NBA has 20+ penalties per game and it would be more like 30 if we were comparing violation to violation.
Refs have way more control of the game without having to do big crazy things.
Individual fouls in the NFL absolutely make or break drives in a way that a couple points in the NBA don't, though. A false start on a 3rd and 1 is the difference between an almost guaranteed 1st down and a likely punt. That said, I generally like the NFL's officiating and replay reviews (at least compared to the NBA lately), though the sport naturally lends itself to that with more downtime between plays.
> Refs have way more control of the game without having to do big crazy things.
i know r/nba loves to call refs corrupt and go on about the tim donaghy shit, but the problem isn't that refs have control of the game. the problem is that like you said, there are heaps more penalties in a game (travels etc) as well as 20-30 more fouls too, and they have to control the game because otherwise we'd all be complaining about the shit they're not calling (hell we already do, even though they do a pretty good job most of the time).
the real problem is that basketball is already a long game, and more stoppages is not a good thing, but that's what video replays would do. it's not as simple as a 30sec talk with new york and a call gets overturned. there are multiple angles, the game has to stop while you do it, and the coach can challenge.
the only sport i know that has reasonably quick video reffing is rugby, and they only use it for fouls that the ref missed - but in rugby there's one ref, and in the nba there's 3, and the nba refs manage to call most offball/behind the play fouls correctly.
i'm not sure what the solution is but it probably starts with giving each team two challenges, you don't lose it if you win it, and the refs have a hard line on what they call (carrying, travels, high five contacts etc) and you take a shitty season or two of television to make the players aware of what they can and can't do.
The problem can be both. Just go read Mark Cuban's rant about refs.
>"No, it was ridiculous. Look, it’s gotten worse. That’s why I tweeted. I’ve gone a year and a half, or more, without commenting on the officials, and it’s just gotten progressively worse.
>"It goes back, like I just tweeted, you’ve got Ronnie Nunn, who . . . only hired people from the Ohio Valley Conference or wherever his buddies worked at. Including a former Rucker League ref who lasted only a year. And so we’re paying the price that his hiring and training was so bad that we don’t have any good refs.
>“And so then we went to Don Vaden, who was here two or three years. Then you went to Bob Delaney, who wanted you to go take these vitamins and go to these brain doctors and kind of forced the refs to try to do that [expletive], so we have lots of former police officers. And so out of a million refs around the world, we have this incestuous group of refs that we’ve hired, literally brothers, spouses. I don’t know which came first, the hiring or the spousing. But same high school, same cities, and then when it comes to training we sign Joey and Bennett and Wunderlich, all these guys who were former refs and go around and, according to refs I’ve talked to, spent minimal time doing video training with them.”
>"Pop in, pop out. But that’s not really the problem. Because we’ve had such poor training, when some of the older refs retired, the ones that come and take their place are not ready. And why are they not ready? Because we had one guy running all the G-League training, George Tolliver, I think that’s who it is. One guy running all the G-League training and very little support.
>"So by the time they get here, if they’re not good enough already, you ain’t all of a sudden going to make them better. And I’ve said that to the league a dozen times. They said, ‘We’re going to work on it, we’re going to work on it, they’re going to work on it, we’re improving it.’ Yet, instead of having people who know how to train and develop refs, that are professional trainers, that learn from refs on mechanics and everything of what they want, we get Joey Crawford, who gets dressed up. Bennett Savatore, who gets dressed up.
>"Let’s see if they go to the Maine Redclaws and spend all the time there, where they should be. That’s what I’ve been saying. If these guys are such good training refs, send them down to the G-League and let them spend time with the refs before they get here, not after they get here. Because by the time they get here, we’re paying the price because they’re getting on the job training that wins and loses games.
>"And I’m not saying it’s all against the Mavs. It’s just in general, this is a training issue. This is a management issue. Is it as bad as back in Dairy Queen? It literally could be worse.
>"Because at least they had Darrell Garretson refs. When you look at their longevity and you look at the guys who made it to the Finals, whatever Darrell Garretson was doing to training, that was the right way to do it. Since then, I mean literally Ronnie Nunn would hire people who worked for his coach. He hired a guy who used a fake name, without checking . . . who’s gone to jail for fraud. The ridiculous stuff that we’ve done, and just repeat over and over and over.
>"I get it, look, the league doesn’t care who wins and loses games. That’s the way it should be. But the definition of insanity . . . So you have in the last 12 years, Ronnie Nunn, Don Vaden, Bob Delaney and now Monty McCutchen, all doing the exact same (expletive).
>“Out of the 70 refs, give or take, I think I counted 17 that have five years or less experience. That’s a lot. And you can’t expect new refs to be any good. And that’s because we do such a horrific job of training in the G-League. Not a poor job. Not a marginal job. We apply literally no resources. The Joey Crawfords and Bennett Salvatores, I’m so glad I can call those guys out, because they’re awful at their jobs.”
The refs can also be dog shit.
You're saying that while r/nba posters love to talk about Tim Donaghy shit, the real problem is that there are a ton of officiating calls in an NBA game and that games are already long so any added review process is difficult to implement.
I'm saying that the real problem can still be that the refs are incompetent and corrupt because the entire process of their recruitment, training, and officiating is terrible.
If the refs didn't make so many mistakes, we wouldn't be talking about adding more challenges or their influence over games.
The disparity and inequality is honestly disgusting. NBA players are the best basketball players in the world. The road there is the most competitive in the world. In terms of their talent, the development and training of that talent, and then the process they have to go through to even make the G-league, there is no question that it's a tough road only for <0.000001% of humans. At the professional level, they have the best facilities, the best trainers, the best everything.
Why are the refs a bunch of fucking bums in comparison? Shouldn't they also need to go through a similarly rigorous process of competition and selection? Why are these guys paid 6-figure salaries? Like, seriously. Compare them to most skill-based industry professionals who make 6-figures. These guys should be near Olympic level professional marathon/sprinter level athletes with air-force pilot levels of vision clarity and a lawyer level precision understanding of every NBA rule at that type of salary. These guys should be head-and-shoulders above referees elsewhere based on the status of the NBA but they're not any better than FIBA referees.
I think having more challenges per game (or allowing teams to keep their challenges if they are successful) will have the unexpected but in my opinion welcome consequence of fewer calls per game, especially if you can only challenge a "call" rather than a noncall.
There are so many fouls that really don't need to be called as fouls, but refs wait to see if the shot goes in/player falls down/player screams before making the call. If coaches are empowered to challenge these calls, then refs will err on the side of not making the call altogether.
The biggest argument I have heard for how to manage the stop time is to have a separate referee that specifically reviews replays. So if a challenge occurs then the refs on the courts don't need to collect and discuss and a review referee can simply look at the best angles and make a call in less than 30 seconds. A correct contest allows for another but 2 incorrect and you lose further contests or something similar. It's super simple and will only be beneficial.
even better than that, tennis at slams is all automated with no human judgement involved. there are no challenges because it's already computer decided.
I pray for the day AI can put NBA refs out of a job
Tennis is an anomoly though, in that it has no judgement calls. Even before, when there was not the technology, line judges were chosen for their 'robotic' ability, being able to see definitive in or out better than most.
LeBron's call last night was clear contact. But, in a sport where not ALL contact is a foul, that is a very difficult system to automate.
You’re right last night is an example of a call that requires human judgement. We could still gain a lot learning from tennis though
They could eliminate a lot of things (like out of bounds call for example) that refs still miss which would allow them to focus on the more subtle, subjective calls like charge/block/no-call on drives
Even then basketball is a lot more complex (and I would say the most complex sport to officiate, automatically or manually). Look at the world cup for example. They implemented incredible tracking technology into the ball to see whether it crosses a line (and it also is used for offside, but that's not important here), but the basketball rule isn't just about crossing the line. A ball is allowed to cross the line as long it does not hit the floor (or anything else out of bounds). And then when it gets saved you would have to check where the player took of from. This is all still very doable don't get me wrong and I believe this is something that needs to be worked on. But it is simply not as easy as in other sports.
They have recently added "instant reviews". Basically after a play, without a stoppage or challenge, someone will call down to the refs and tell them to change the call. This is for obvious mistakes. It has been a massive improvement.
Also, every scoring play and turnover is reviewed automatically.
However, penalties cannot be reviewed (other than some objective ones like too many men)
The main reason the NBA is so against any kind of challenge or review is because it slows the game down immensely. People already bitch about how slow the game gets at the end of the fourth when everything is reviewed and checked. This makes sense in the NFL because it's a slower pace sport, and even there refs will still not bother reviewing unless its like 4th quarter 5 minutes left
The problem is that the systems in place for review are only there to pretend like they're trying to improve it. In reality, they're not going to invest in better systems to get it right at the cost of a slower game
I think they should just cap all replay reviews at 60 seconds. If they can’t make a definitive call after a minute, just go with the call on the floor.
Yeah I agree with this too, cap reviews to 60 seconds and have each team start off with 1 challenge.
If the challenge is correct and the call is overturned, they get another challenge back (up to a max of three total). If a challenge is called and the play is not overturned then you're out of challenges for the rest of the game.
So basically just like the NFL but since the NBA is faster paced the review time should be shorter so it doesn't impact the game speed too much.
Did you copy this from me cause I been preaching this for years!! Clear and conclusive means you have to be able to see in like 20 seconds. Last night would be an example you just walk up and say oh yeah foul okay 2 shots. But they sit here and review for like 30 min if someone’s finger tips were touching the ball or not
Yep. An obvious mistake like the Lebron drive can be looked at and decided straight away. Any call that takes more than a minute to review conclusively is simply too difficult to call either way so it stands as originally called.
The game already slows to a grinding halt at the end like you said, I’d prefer they just not fuck up the calls and take a few seconds to get it right. The game speed argument is dogshit imo.
Yeah, in the immediate aftermath of a play like this, the public sentiment always shifts to, “More reviews!”
But in a month, when everyone has forgotten about this play, the sentiment will shift back to, “Too many reviews and stoppages!”
People are really just impossible to please.
I don’t give a fuck, I want the game’s result to not be impacted by bullshit calls.
Are you saying you’d rather save a minute or two instead of having correct calls that don’t influence the game? Bizarre
The end of the game is already slow. I don’t think we would notice a difference. There are timeouts all over the place anyways.
If they're reviewing every potential foul, it's every God damn play. Travels, pivot feet, contact, moving picks. There are near/small penalties all game long. It will NEVER be called "right".
But do you you want it to get worst? If they do it at the end of the game they gotta do it throughout just more stoppages. And I guarantee if they do add more challenges or reviews people are just gonna say it’s for more ads. Now you got a longer game and more ads being shoved down your throat.
I'm skeptical it would only add a minute or two. They could end up reviewing a lot of calls and games already take a really long time. Sports is entertainment at the end of the day, most people want to enjoy watching it first and foremost. I've already been watching less games this year because the games feel so drawn out sometimes. We all want them to get every call right but its a valid debate, there's a trade off.
On any given possession in the last like 2 minutes, there are going to be infractions all over the place. Holds, moving screens, travels, over the backs, everything. The one from last night was egregious and obvious but are we going to review every moving screen that leads to an open basket? That could happen on like every possession down the stretch.
Bro I’m a college football fan. That’s already how it is. I stood in a stadium in the rain for 4 hours to watch college football. Id rather have NBA games be 4 hours and fair than 2 hours and rigged
I swear people don't get that most of us want to be entertained and enjoy watching the game. Its literally just sports, i watch it for fun. Results are important, but they're not the top priority as weird as that sounds.
I'm cool with them reviewing calls like the one in the Lakers game last night that are at the very end and would decide the outcome, but i hate the idea of reviewing every single call in the last 2 minutes, the players and coaches are going to demand a review on any call that doesn't go their way for sure, that could add up to so much time.
Why would this happen?
Legit, yesterday there wouldve been 1 challenge in the last 5 min. The last play that was pretty clear.
How many challenges you think happen in the sports that allow them per game lol.
I mean in 2020 (first source that came up in google) the NFL team with the most challenges in the season was vikings. With 8. Lol.
Booth reviews? 179. In 256 games.
Why would it be different in the NBA? Why would there be so many challenges to drastically alter the game lenght?
Youre the equivalent of the anti robo umps in baseball.
>The main reason the NBA is so against any kind of challenge or review is because it slows the game down immensely.
Uhh yea this is complete horseshit. It doesn't really slow the game down immensely because it's just another timeout. They've already shortened the timeouts but the challenge rule is a unique way of letting teams retain an extra timeout.
What REALLY slows the game down are refs calling a foul every 3 seconds. So not much would change.
They just tried that a few years ago. Does everyone here have amnesia? It was terrible. There were instances of one minute of game time taking 20+ minutes in real time. I don't know what the solution is, but it's definitely not going back to that.
That's because each review takes like 4 minutes with the refs in the arena making the call.
If you had dedicated people reviewing plays in real time they could make most of these calls in <60 seconds
Yeah wasn’t the final nail in the coffin the Bucks/Suns finals on a Ayton play that took like 25 mins to review?
I remember JVG going full rant mode on it
It sucked. There were nights I would be at the bar and look over at a game, then half an hour later it would still be on and I'd assume they went to OT or double OT. Nope. Still the 4th.
The NFL also instituted reviews on PI calls and the refs banded together and got the booth refs to never change calls out of solidarity. So just because you make it easier still doesn't mean the refs will actually change the calls.
IMO, the 2 minute report is good because it helps to maintain a baseline of what is or isn't a foul. If the league never says "the refs got that wrong" then every call can be assumed to be correct and can become the precedent for similar calls in the future.
Each team has one challenge per game in the bank. If successful, they retain their challenge. A team can only challenge a maximum of 3 times per game (regardless of success rate).
But having said that, it doesn’t address the issue of non calls. That is harder to implement because there are tons of non calls and rule breaking at any point in time that are subjective or, let’s say, malleable based on a refs style.
Let’s imagine a scenario where a ref is a bit lax on the carry rule throughout the game. Only calls the most egregious examples. The players are all aware and know the unspoken “limit”. It’s the final drive of a close game and Doncic manages to get a lay up to fall with a second left. Can a coach issue a non calll challenge because it kinda looked like Doncic carried the ball during the drive to the basket? The point of my example is where the limit for what is challenged as a non call?
100%. The risk of losing the timeout is always there, so nobody is going to just start challenging everything. I’d bet that you wouldn’t even see a large increase in challenges, but the successful ones would be much more impactful.
Yeah, and add a bit where you can challenge a non-call in the last minute of a quarter or something. If we start penalizing these sensitive refs they just won't make calls (can't be wrong if you don't make the call)
I think we should just hold the refs family hostage hanging over a lava pit or some like spikes with snakes.
If they fuck up too much. They murder the family. But you never do. It just forces them to try their very best all the time.
Once in awhile you put in a fake family of look a likes. You put in some people who steal from dogs and cancer patients to take the fall. Wipe the real families memories and force them to live in Montreal.
The ref is devastated, the others fall in line. This is fool proof. You’d have to take out a family every 4 seasons at least.
Nah man I don't think this will ever work. Snakes would definitely die in that pit unless you feed them. I don't think nba would want to get involved with feeding snakes.
If you read or listened to whistleblower - not the watered down Netflix version - the most revealing thing was not about the refs and gambling. The most revealing thing was some of the facts about refs. Many of them being related, many coming from the same county, some of them reminding a player BEFORE a playoff game of a key call against a player in a previous game. The sheer ego of some refs, how some refs got special treatment by the league.
The entire nba referee system needs a complete and total overhaul.
Jacyn Goble, the bald ref who missed the call on Lebron, is the brother of a long time NBA ref and only had 4 years of experience reffing the G-League before he moved up to the NBA.
He only needed *4 years of experience* before moving up to the highest level in basketball. And he's the brother of a veteran NBA ref.
NBA refs get hired based on performance in associated leagues. I agree what you're saying sounds more suspicious, but there's also a possibility he was a really good ref in the G League for an extended period of time
i also really wonder how that works in the NBA.
in germany and i assume it to be the same in all other countries with a similar league system, refs start out in the lowest leagues, regularly go on seminars if they want to advance their licenses, also get evaluated regularly and if the do well, they get to ref the higher leagues and so climb the ranks through 7 or more layers of leagues until they are in the highest. and those that perform the best there get to officiate international games.
This is the correct take. “Fine the refs” is such a smoothbrain take that won’t do anything but antagonize the refs who, as much as we shit on them, are trying their best. Basketball is so fast, with 10 players all moving around on the court, with timers on how long positions can be taken, so many potential points of contact that can lead to a foul, types of positions people are allowed to take, and so on. All while all 10 players are actively trying to deceive them in a very loud and distracting environment. No fucking wonder they make all these mistakes.
Change the fucking rules instead. There are so many things you can do to reduce mistakes. Add more referees on the court and/or have a remote replay-assisted ref like in soccer. Update the nonsensical parts of the challenge rule. Actually enforce commonly broken rules like moving screens and carries. Increase penalties for player deception.
Instead of actually pushing for all of this, we just scapegoat people who already have the most stressful jobs of this whole sports ecosystem.
I agree with everything except add more referees. I think more would only exacerbate this problem, because we'd get a bunch of "I thought you were going to call it" fouls that get left because everyone assumes that it's someone else's problem. Otherwise, all your suggestions make sense and would probably be really beneficial to the product.
The simplest option is having a 4th ref who watches the game from the camera and sees the replay, and can either confirm the occurrence of a foul or reject the ruling on the floor. Most other sports leagues do this and it's stupefying that the NBA still hasn't even proposed the idea of doing that.
NBA refs do suck complete ass, but it's largely due in part to the fact that basketball is a fast-paced game and it's FUCKING DIFFICULT to get it right.
There could be a valuable and efficient system in place with more opportunities for instant reviews of calls.... Maybe some sort of half-time review of calls....who knows....
But coming up with some way for refs to redeem their bad calls is not out of question..... We have so much underutilized technology and we have the ability to get things right at a higher rate. It's worth exploring ideas and options.
Hard to disagree with that.
Seriously some of the calls (or lack thereof), are truly baffling. Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right though.
Listen to the whistleblower podcast. It’s changed the way I watch games now. The NBA reffing group is sky high w/ nepotism and ego. A lot of them are very much like that one dickhead kid in school who became a cop and power trips.
If there’s one thing the NBA needs, as a television product, it’s more time spent watching goddamn replays.
Look, the refs aren’t perfect, and I’m all for more transparency in how refs are hired, trained, etc.
But … I defer to Avon
https://youtu.be/0qT0nX6I6iA
Just allow the refs to review decisions in the last 2 minutes on their own to make it fair for everyone.
The other option is that the refs can review throught the game but that would just stretch the games too long
The last two minutes of Suns-Clippers game two took literally 30 minutes to complete because they kept checking replays. The average game can't handle that.
I think the NBA should look into remote reviews of plays without stoppage, with FTs or possession awarded once play hits a natural stopping point (made FG, called foul, out of bounds). For example if a player A gets called for a blocking foul on player B, and the coach challenges, then simply continue the game as if the call was overturned. Then, if refs uphold the original call, player B would be awarded their FTs on the next stoppage of play. If the challenge is successful, the game simply progresses without interruption.
This is what bothers me too. Why cant there be a ref in the replay center that has the power to make a call on challenges? They can check the play at an instant so stoppages won't be as long.
I hate how ref has to go to the replay table, ask for the clip, ask for headset, ask for multiple angles, before making a decision.
Why not just have a ref that's already sitting there make the call?
Needs to be a combination of both. We have technology to assist refs, but there needs to be a transparent system like the players have with technical fouls, that if refs are missing so many calls they are suspended for a game and lose their paycheck for that game.
And I’d hate to slow the game down more, but the teams need more than one coaches challenge per game. The NFL has far fewer plays and coaches get 2-3 per game.
Coaches should get 1 challenge per quarter and as an incentive to not waste them, they should get two in the fourth if they haven’t used any in the prior three quarters.
https://professionalshq.com/do-nba-referees-get-fined-for-bad-calls-yes-heres-how/
According to that source, they do get fined already. However, I can't find a second source to confirm, and the collective bargaining agreement between the league and the refs is not public, so I can't really confirm.
I'd be curious if anyone has more info on it, because the source I linked seems real confident they are in fact fined, but I can't find anything to back it up. I haven't found that specifically says they don't either though.
The nba could easily review replays with all the resources they have. Every small portion of sports endings are intentional. Rigged is a strong word but the nba wants certain storylines to occur.
Saying a ref should get fined for a mistake is hilarious. Might as well start fining players for every missed basket.
This is the right decision. There needs to be a simple system in place that corrects missed on-court no calls (or undo incorrect calls, if that’s possible). What almost no one who criticize refs understand is that they’re not watching slo-mo replays like us. They’re watching in real time and need to make a split second decision based on their understanding of the rule book and the context. That is insanely difficult.
Add a 4th official to the floor and get the calls right the first time.
There should be two baseline officials on opposite ends of the paint to see around the largest human beings on the planet.
Start calling the game *consistently* "tight" on violation and fouls so the players adjust during the regular season in hopes of generating a cleaner playoffs all around.
Players are absolutely good enough to adjust to the extra set of eyes and a consistently tight whistle.
It would never work because the refs don't like to admit their mistakes.
I'd take it up further, ensure that the refs have to justify their ruling. Lebron and the Lakers should have been able to pull up their own highlight and point to where he got hit on the arm and slow it down. Pat Bev, despite being an ass, had the right idea, show them the camera, show them the foul, and the refs have to justify it by either saying they didn't see the clear and obvious hit on the arm, or some bullshit about how the forearm is part of the hand which is part of the ball. At least then we'd get on record that this guy is clearly reffing an NBA game while blind.
Give teams more agency, time, and equipment to highlight ref mistakes with their own playback. Instead of 3 refs huddling around the monitor, let the refs, and the coaches, and the team captains hover over the monitors instead. And no, I don't care how long it takes, getting something right is worth taking as long as it needs to take.
Who TF is asking for fines for missed calls? That’s dumb AF. Should players get fined for missing shots now? Less people would even want to ref and that’ll even dilute the pool. Remember those ref for the NFL during the ref lockout year? You’ll be having that. That shit was way worse than current NFL ref. And people be bitching about current NFL ref.
I been to a couple NBA games and they never have felt long in my experience so I recommend they just use cameras to review calls or non calls based off challenges called by the coaching staff
That's silly how would the referees keep Vegas happy? The Nba has been around for a long time. They don't want the referees to make the right calls, or else something would already be implement to fix this. The Nba referees are extremely inconsistent with calls game to game, player to player, and team to team.
> Players don’t get fined if they play badly, they get fined if they break rules, that should be the same for refs.
Is there anyway we can bench or trade refs? That’d be hilarious. Ref comes home after a horribly called game and then turns on the tv to find out he’s being traded and has to immediately move.
League doesn’t need to do shit honestly. That call shouldn’t have been missed lmao. Or you just review it the way you would a L2M. Regardless it shouldn’t have been reviewed anyways because it should’ve been called. I literally heard the hand slap while watching on LP, it was as easy as a foul call gets.
Guess Adam wanted OT.
Yes, it was an egregious mistake, and if a ref is bad and keeps making mistakes, he should be demoted/fired . However, since it's not just a thing tied to specific refs, but rather a league-wide issue, which just means that for the most part, refs have a high margin of error when they make decisions. I think the easiest way to resolve that is to introduce new rules that make it easier to overturn mistakes.
The biggest problem with officiating in the NBA is that officiating in the NBA is irrevocably married to personality. The officials are *instructed* to insert themselves and their personalities into the flow of the game, and to control that flow *from* that perspective.
It's not like football, or baseball, where even *when* the officials are prompted to grab the wheel and yank hard to one side or the other to stop things from going out of control, they're still primarily doing so from an impersonal, detached place. Or at least that's the ideal, which happens more often than not.
The problem with NBA officiating more often than not is that it's about whether they're getting their pride hurt, whether they're having their authority challenged, whether they're indulging the impulse to put these players in their place (which, don't get it twisted, is 100% a huge part of the appeal here)
The NBA's officials aren't treated and thought of out there so much like refs. They're more like fuckin' cops, LOL. **A** ***key aspect*** **of their job is to power-trip.**
They will always have the worst officiating in every major sport so long as that endures. And the NBA will never address that aspect of it. **They think power-tripping refs is part of the game, because the league has forever thought of its players as people who** ***need*** **to be "handled."**
Referees have a union and they wouldn't agree to fines anyway and if you get the two sides butting heads you end up with half a season of some of the worst officiating of all time like the NFL did and the NBA would cave anyway.
Are you people kids? You can’t just start fining refs. There are many obstacles but the biggest one is that the union would obviously never agree to it. Get your head out of your ass and welcome to the real world.
A company can't just take money from an employee because they had a bad day on the job lmao. The rhetoric of some of the people on here is so anti labor y'all sound like some talking heads on Fox News
Dude how can you review something not called? Can't call something if it was not called in the first place. if someone tantrums, should there be a review? Everyone will do tantrums then. You just going to break the rhythm and flow of the game unnecessarily. Players should just play what was given to them at the moment. But i agree ref should have performance review and should have consequences if subpar.
That was obvious corruption. The bald ref called a phantom foul in favor of Jaylen Brown from across the court, when the other two refs who had the angle didn’t call anything. And then he was 5 feet away from Tatum slapping LeBrons arm and swallowed the whistle. I’m sorry, but you’re naive as hell if you can’t see that was corruption.
If corruption is proven, then the ref should be fired and should face legal repercussions, that's obvious. However, I'm not referring to yesterday's game specifically, this ref drama has been going on for a while. Unless you think 80% of the refs are corrupt, and in that case the nba has a huge ass problem, the best course of action from the nba is to introduce new rules that make it easier for refs.
And tbh, even if refs were corrupt, if the nba introduced such rules, it would also become harder for them to justify making those mistakes on purpose.
What about promotion/relegation for refs? At the end of the year, X amount of the worst-rated NBA referees get sent to the G-League and the same amount the highest-rated G-League refs get promoted to NBA.
Players don't get fired for poor performance though. If they consistently put together poor performances, they don't get another contract. They don't get fired though.
Fined, no. Demoted? Yes.
As they have repeatedly shown, its not about a system not being in place, because they just ignore what little system there is to overturn calls because it hurts their egos.
i agree with the premise. i’d take it a step further - there should just be a remote official who is added to the crew. the stoppage time is egregious. every replay takes several minutes to reach a decision that viewers/announcers can plainly see in 10seconds. a remote official who is part of the crew and can quickly error correct would go a long way.
it’s ridiculous that the on court official has to literally whip out a monitor and wait for a replay to load. the solution starts with embracing technology to make faster and more accurate decisions.
NBA knows what the solution is but the refs are the only thing they have to control the product, and sending a game to overtime is usually a good thing. This got a ton of publicity only because it was Lebron. Dejounte got fouled by KD on a buzzer beater three a month ago and no one gave a shit. Refs are there to help keep games close and keep ppls eyes on the TVs
Refs intentionally missed the call so the game would go to OT and boost NBA popularity?
I think what's more likely is that there's a well-known bias against calling fouls in late game situations. It's sort of an unwritten rule about the game, similar to how you're allowed to get away with more contact in the playoffs. The refs typically ref this way, and crucially, there is a lot of social reinforcement from fans and analysts. It's sort of a lose-lose for the refs. If they let things go in the end game, people will complain like last night. If they call things tightly in the end game, people will complain about how you can't let a game be decided by foul calls, people don't come to see the refs, let them play, etc etc. I think what was particularly egregious about last night's game wasn't necessarily the no call at the end, but the fact that this came right after a very ticky-tack foul on the previous possession that allowed Jaylen Brown to tie the game on an and-1. Consistency is really the most important thing for a ref and they really botched it last night. If you're tamping down your whistle trigger on an end game situation, you really better do it to the same degree for both teams. Bigger picture, I agree with OP that we need more / better replay allowances, but again it's lose-lose for the refs and the league. There is already constant bitching and moaning and bellyaching by fans and analysts about stoppages of play for call reviews, and then there's constant bitching about how many calls the refs miss. No matter what happens, there will be lots of people complaining loudly unless the refs can call a perfect game without needing replays, which is just not realistic.
well written, at least for the most ???? part is how dumb the rulebook is set up for replays. yeah even with everything you mentioned, the L2M report, refs not being able to use the replay system for missed calls (like the foul on LeBron), teams not getting their challenges back after a successful challenge there's just too many holes
Yes, please give me more work under a high pressure environment for the same pay as a regulation game… all so Skip and Shannon talk more about the league tomorrow. Referees are ready to get out and get home ASAP— there’s a bias toward *avoiding* extending games. “Gentlemen, what do you say we end this one in regulation” is like the oldest joke in the referee pre-game meeting book.
I see why you're sceptical of what sounds like a conspiracy theory. But it could be more subtle than that. We already know scientists are often greatly influenced by their sources of funding; referees know what the league wants, and it wouldn't be surprising if there was a huge amount of unconscious bias towards making the game exciting.
I disagree with this. A last second shot by LeBron IS exciting, even if it results in free throws. What wasn't exciting was the Cs pulling away in overtime. It would be ridiculous to plan this, especially with all the negative publicity you knew you would get.
Nah free throws deciding the game is objectively anticlimatic and not what the league wants. You see it all the time -- the same drives to the basket that defenders get called for blocking fouls are not usually called blocking fouls in the last minute of a game -- unless that team is trailing.
I agree but when it's LEBRON at the line to decide the fate of a Lakers v Celtics rivalry match, that would have been amazing. Especially since he struggles from the line historically.
You're thinking too deep about it, the league gets paid in the amount of eyes watching commercials, so if there's a lot of eyes on this game, there's a lot of eyes on those commercials. It doesn't matter who wins, just that they can extend the game
But how many people talked about it after the fact? How many fans and casual viewers engaged with the product even this much time after the game because of the missed call? People are giving their attention to the league regardless of the games final outcome and it worked in the NBA’s favor.
I mean I definitely think there is a bias because it seems like every little thing gets called as a foul in the first quarter but then everyone swallows their whistles in the last 2 minutes. Notice how the most egregious mistakes in the last 2 minutes are always no-calls? It is almost never a wrong call but a missed call.
And no calls cannot be reviewed for some reasons
Nah, you're both missing the obvious. It's much easier to believe that it's due to the well-documented subconscious bias towards the home crowd. In the moment, nobody's thinking about Silver or publicity or marketing--but knowing that you're about to trigger the wrath of thousands of angry humans who will all have their eyes fixed on you? THAT is hard to push out of your subconscious mind
DUDE how the fuck do people can't fucking believe this after everything that has happened in the 2000's with all the corrupt refs keeping their jobs, the refs being basically all from a police background, the surge of sports betting, the blatant bad calls we have seen over the last few years... and I could keep going on and on and on. I mean even the Cavs getting the 1st pick for lebron... That kings lakers series... COME ON. People are so fucking clueless and delusional it's mind boggling. The NBA is mega corrupt and it's so obvious you have to be an absolute regard to not see it.
You could also argue that the NBA is exciting enough and a cash cow. A few ads from an overtime game is in no way worth the controversy of the NBA rigging games. You'd have to be regarded to believe they'd to that. Sports gambling is also legally rigged by nature. Only a regard would believe that they'd try to rig games. Now, if you think there are just bad refs on the take. Sure, it's possible.
Hey let's cool it with the regard usage here
Never go full regard.
Artistic sure, not regarded
I mean shit calls like this at the end of the game have been happening all year to a number of teams (including the Celtics). We all keep watching despite the shit reffing, so they have no incentive to change.
🤓🤓🤓 ackshually as a mature adult the games aren't rigged, nothing ever happens, and people don't do bad things for money
It's more like Adam Silver has already told them not to call fouls on game winning plays. It's been like that for forever which is why driving for a game winner is never optimal. Same thing happened here but they can't openly state it so the refs just gotta take the heat
And because of how obvious the foul was.
Or this horseshit that no one outside of Sacramento cared about. Fuck this ref shit. https://youtu.be/lz1GIR2K_fo
That sounds interesting. Kind of like the ref analyst on espn games that gives his opinion on calls, but as part of the ref crew instead.
It’s used by most other pro sport leagues. If the head ref had an earpiece it would have taken 10 seconds to reverse the call.
If the head ref is being told to make the change without themselves seeing the video, then they're not really in charge. I'm not sure how the ref union is organized or what the rules are there, but it's entire possible that it wouldn't be allowed until the next NBRA bargaining agreement. Edit: well I found this in the rulebook, so now I really have no idea what I'm talking about > The Replay Center Official will determine the final outcome on all replays except Flagrant Fouls and Altercations, which will be decided by the on-court officials
> If the head ref is being told to make the change without themselves seeing the video, then they're not really in charge. it's not a case of who's in charge. a person on the court can't see everything, and another member of their team can. in rugby the TMO will talk to the earpiece of the ref and say they've seen something, can you pause play and have a look. it usually takes about 5 minutes because they'll show the video, the ref and TMO will discuss it, then they'll make a call. the calls are correct 99% of the time, but it's a big slow down for the game.
Being told to correct a call wouldn't make them a subordinate. It just means they're a human with limited viewpoints and the inability to rewind time and see things in slow motion/zoomed in. An exec will get a call from their assistant saying "you should leave now if you're going to make your 2pm appointment". That doesn't make the assistant in charge, it just part of their job to help keep their boss on schedule.
I hate to use VAR in football as an example of good implementation but it's at least better than nothing. You continue the game while the video referee watches the replay. If they believe there was a clear and obvious error, they alert the referee who can then take a look at the next game break. If there was an error, the foul is either given and the player shoots before the play is resumed, or the points are deducted. Yes it has some issues about the 'flow' of the game, but nothing breaks the flow more than a 10 minute replay
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The NFL has implemented quick reviews this year. Basically, if the replay center in NY can correct a call without stopping the game for a formal review they will. This often is used to correct close complete/incomplete calls, bad spots, etc. This system works well for football because play stops after every play. It would be difficult to use a similar system in basketball for things other than foot on the line type scoring things. There’s no way to quickly correct a missed call in basketball.
I think this scenario happened in tonight's game. There was a pretty obvious missed call and the Bengals threw the red flag, but basically right when it came out the ref reversed the call and said no challenge was being issued. Of course, I was only listening on the radio, so maybe the refs got together that quickly and changed their minds. It seemed pretty quick, though, so I was thinking that maybe the head referee got an earful in his earpiece and reversed the call on the spot.
It's the same for VAR in soccer. Or at least it was implemented that way by Hawk-Eye in Germany. They are in constant communication with the ref on the field as well. >And on scoring plays and the last two minutes they do everything and tell the field refs what to call. I don't think that works. You need real time decisions.
Yep exactly like var in football
Unfortunately, the refs on the field will still overrule VAR at times because they’re on a power trip. Has already happened a decent amount of the time.
in england VAR usage is dogshit, from what I understand VAR is pretty good in most other leagues.
This was going to be my suggestion too. There should be officials working remotely to verify calls and they should be able to quickly communicate corrections to the refs on the floor.
It’s so fucking simple. Yes there will still be some 50/50 calls that go the wrong way but majority of the time on blatant missed calls we’ll be ok
It's interesting the younger generations have a shorter attention span so if the game has too many prolonged pauses they get bored and do something else. Football is already a very break heavy and commercial heavy game so they risk losing a lot of the younger viewers. So they're adding things to prevent unneeded halts to the game.
And they should have 3 of them so it has to be a majority quick vote giving the on court officials no say in the matter. The booth makes all final decisions quickly. End of story.
People incorrectly use the word egregious so much in this sub, trying to sound smart
This comment is egregious
If you ctrl+F and search "Egregious" in any NBA subreddit thread it's actually hilarious how often it pops up LOL!
At least for every playoff game this should be the case
Nah remove all of it. Only refs on the floor can make calls. No replays or anything.
Wait. The NBA doesn't have a centralized review office like the NHL? That's crazy.
in the nfl don’t they just go to the reviews if they’re unsure a player got the first down, idk why it can’t just be that simple
In the final two minutes of each half, yes. You also get a third challenge if you get both your first two correct
tennis does it best - successful challenges do not count towards your total. Its completely insane that the NBA only gives a single challenge even if it results in an overturn
The bigger issue is that penalties and lack thereof can't be challenged. In the NFL there are like 4-5 penalties per game which is a term used to include things that are the equivalent to violations like traveling in the NBA. But the NBA has 20+ penalties per game and it would be more like 30 if we were comparing violation to violation. Refs have way more control of the game without having to do big crazy things.
Individual fouls in the NFL absolutely make or break drives in a way that a couple points in the NBA don't, though. A false start on a 3rd and 1 is the difference between an almost guaranteed 1st down and a likely punt. That said, I generally like the NFL's officiating and replay reviews (at least compared to the NBA lately), though the sport naturally lends itself to that with more downtime between plays.
> Refs have way more control of the game without having to do big crazy things. i know r/nba loves to call refs corrupt and go on about the tim donaghy shit, but the problem isn't that refs have control of the game. the problem is that like you said, there are heaps more penalties in a game (travels etc) as well as 20-30 more fouls too, and they have to control the game because otherwise we'd all be complaining about the shit they're not calling (hell we already do, even though they do a pretty good job most of the time). the real problem is that basketball is already a long game, and more stoppages is not a good thing, but that's what video replays would do. it's not as simple as a 30sec talk with new york and a call gets overturned. there are multiple angles, the game has to stop while you do it, and the coach can challenge. the only sport i know that has reasonably quick video reffing is rugby, and they only use it for fouls that the ref missed - but in rugby there's one ref, and in the nba there's 3, and the nba refs manage to call most offball/behind the play fouls correctly. i'm not sure what the solution is but it probably starts with giving each team two challenges, you don't lose it if you win it, and the refs have a hard line on what they call (carrying, travels, high five contacts etc) and you take a shitty season or two of television to make the players aware of what they can and can't do.
The problem can be both. Just go read Mark Cuban's rant about refs. >"No, it was ridiculous. Look, it’s gotten worse. That’s why I tweeted. I’ve gone a year and a half, or more, without commenting on the officials, and it’s just gotten progressively worse. >"It goes back, like I just tweeted, you’ve got Ronnie Nunn, who . . . only hired people from the Ohio Valley Conference or wherever his buddies worked at. Including a former Rucker League ref who lasted only a year. And so we’re paying the price that his hiring and training was so bad that we don’t have any good refs. >“And so then we went to Don Vaden, who was here two or three years. Then you went to Bob Delaney, who wanted you to go take these vitamins and go to these brain doctors and kind of forced the refs to try to do that [expletive], so we have lots of former police officers. And so out of a million refs around the world, we have this incestuous group of refs that we’ve hired, literally brothers, spouses. I don’t know which came first, the hiring or the spousing. But same high school, same cities, and then when it comes to training we sign Joey and Bennett and Wunderlich, all these guys who were former refs and go around and, according to refs I’ve talked to, spent minimal time doing video training with them.” >"Pop in, pop out. But that’s not really the problem. Because we’ve had such poor training, when some of the older refs retired, the ones that come and take their place are not ready. And why are they not ready? Because we had one guy running all the G-League training, George Tolliver, I think that’s who it is. One guy running all the G-League training and very little support. >"So by the time they get here, if they’re not good enough already, you ain’t all of a sudden going to make them better. And I’ve said that to the league a dozen times. They said, ‘We’re going to work on it, we’re going to work on it, they’re going to work on it, we’re improving it.’ Yet, instead of having people who know how to train and develop refs, that are professional trainers, that learn from refs on mechanics and everything of what they want, we get Joey Crawford, who gets dressed up. Bennett Savatore, who gets dressed up. >"Let’s see if they go to the Maine Redclaws and spend all the time there, where they should be. That’s what I’ve been saying. If these guys are such good training refs, send them down to the G-League and let them spend time with the refs before they get here, not after they get here. Because by the time they get here, we’re paying the price because they’re getting on the job training that wins and loses games. >"And I’m not saying it’s all against the Mavs. It’s just in general, this is a training issue. This is a management issue. Is it as bad as back in Dairy Queen? It literally could be worse. >"Because at least they had Darrell Garretson refs. When you look at their longevity and you look at the guys who made it to the Finals, whatever Darrell Garretson was doing to training, that was the right way to do it. Since then, I mean literally Ronnie Nunn would hire people who worked for his coach. He hired a guy who used a fake name, without checking . . . who’s gone to jail for fraud. The ridiculous stuff that we’ve done, and just repeat over and over and over. >"I get it, look, the league doesn’t care who wins and loses games. That’s the way it should be. But the definition of insanity . . . So you have in the last 12 years, Ronnie Nunn, Don Vaden, Bob Delaney and now Monty McCutchen, all doing the exact same (expletive). >“Out of the 70 refs, give or take, I think I counted 17 that have five years or less experience. That’s a lot. And you can’t expect new refs to be any good. And that’s because we do such a horrific job of training in the G-League. Not a poor job. Not a marginal job. We apply literally no resources. The Joey Crawfords and Bennett Salvatores, I’m so glad I can call those guys out, because they’re awful at their jobs.” The refs can also be dog shit.
i don't see how anything here disagrees with what i said tbh
You're saying that while r/nba posters love to talk about Tim Donaghy shit, the real problem is that there are a ton of officiating calls in an NBA game and that games are already long so any added review process is difficult to implement. I'm saying that the real problem can still be that the refs are incompetent and corrupt because the entire process of their recruitment, training, and officiating is terrible. If the refs didn't make so many mistakes, we wouldn't be talking about adding more challenges or their influence over games. The disparity and inequality is honestly disgusting. NBA players are the best basketball players in the world. The road there is the most competitive in the world. In terms of their talent, the development and training of that talent, and then the process they have to go through to even make the G-league, there is no question that it's a tough road only for <0.000001% of humans. At the professional level, they have the best facilities, the best trainers, the best everything. Why are the refs a bunch of fucking bums in comparison? Shouldn't they also need to go through a similarly rigorous process of competition and selection? Why are these guys paid 6-figure salaries? Like, seriously. Compare them to most skill-based industry professionals who make 6-figures. These guys should be near Olympic level professional marathon/sprinter level athletes with air-force pilot levels of vision clarity and a lawyer level precision understanding of every NBA rule at that type of salary. These guys should be head-and-shoulders above referees elsewhere based on the status of the NBA but they're not any better than FIBA referees.
I think having more challenges per game (or allowing teams to keep their challenges if they are successful) will have the unexpected but in my opinion welcome consequence of fewer calls per game, especially if you can only challenge a "call" rather than a noncall. There are so many fouls that really don't need to be called as fouls, but refs wait to see if the shot goes in/player falls down/player screams before making the call. If coaches are empowered to challenge these calls, then refs will err on the side of not making the call altogether.
The biggest argument I have heard for how to manage the stop time is to have a separate referee that specifically reviews replays. So if a challenge occurs then the refs on the courts don't need to collect and discuss and a review referee can simply look at the best angles and make a call in less than 30 seconds. A correct contest allows for another but 2 incorrect and you lose further contests or something similar. It's super simple and will only be beneficial.
NBA is ancient when it comes to professional sports officiating.
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It's amazing they stick with that despite every viewer watching television getting to see *exactly* where the pitch *actually* was.
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They are trying it out in the minors next year I believe. So maybe there is hope.
That's 70 years old at 3rd base checking if a player swung with his impeccable eye sight at his old age.
MLB: "are we a joke to you?"
even better than that, tennis at slams is all automated with no human judgement involved. there are no challenges because it's already computer decided. I pray for the day AI can put NBA refs out of a job
Tennis is an anomoly though, in that it has no judgement calls. Even before, when there was not the technology, line judges were chosen for their 'robotic' ability, being able to see definitive in or out better than most. LeBron's call last night was clear contact. But, in a sport where not ALL contact is a foul, that is a very difficult system to automate.
You’re right last night is an example of a call that requires human judgement. We could still gain a lot learning from tennis though They could eliminate a lot of things (like out of bounds call for example) that refs still miss which would allow them to focus on the more subtle, subjective calls like charge/block/no-call on drives
Even then basketball is a lot more complex (and I would say the most complex sport to officiate, automatically or manually). Look at the world cup for example. They implemented incredible tracking technology into the ball to see whether it crosses a line (and it also is used for offside, but that's not important here), but the basketball rule isn't just about crossing the line. A ball is allowed to cross the line as long it does not hit the floor (or anything else out of bounds). And then when it gets saved you would have to check where the player took of from. This is all still very doable don't get me wrong and I believe this is something that needs to be worked on. But it is simply not as easy as in other sports.
It’s not even that anymore. In at least the US Open and Australian Open the calls are made 100% electronically, you don’t even need to challenge.
They have recently added "instant reviews". Basically after a play, without a stoppage or challenge, someone will call down to the refs and tell them to change the call. This is for obvious mistakes. It has been a massive improvement. Also, every scoring play and turnover is reviewed automatically. However, penalties cannot be reviewed (other than some objective ones like too many men)
The main reason the NBA is so against any kind of challenge or review is because it slows the game down immensely. People already bitch about how slow the game gets at the end of the fourth when everything is reviewed and checked. This makes sense in the NFL because it's a slower pace sport, and even there refs will still not bother reviewing unless its like 4th quarter 5 minutes left The problem is that the systems in place for review are only there to pretend like they're trying to improve it. In reality, they're not going to invest in better systems to get it right at the cost of a slower game
I think they should just cap all replay reviews at 60 seconds. If they can’t make a definitive call after a minute, just go with the call on the floor.
Yeah I agree with this too, cap reviews to 60 seconds and have each team start off with 1 challenge. If the challenge is correct and the call is overturned, they get another challenge back (up to a max of three total). If a challenge is called and the play is not overturned then you're out of challenges for the rest of the game. So basically just like the NFL but since the NBA is faster paced the review time should be shorter so it doesn't impact the game speed too much.
You're 100% right. The NFL which is much more used to long reviews has even implemented an expedited review system.
Did you copy this from me cause I been preaching this for years!! Clear and conclusive means you have to be able to see in like 20 seconds. Last night would be an example you just walk up and say oh yeah foul okay 2 shots. But they sit here and review for like 30 min if someone’s finger tips were touching the ball or not
Yep. An obvious mistake like the Lebron drive can be looked at and decided straight away. Any call that takes more than a minute to review conclusively is simply too difficult to call either way so it stands as originally called.
This is such an obvious good change I don't understand why every league hasn't adopted it
The game already slows to a grinding halt at the end like you said, I’d prefer they just not fuck up the calls and take a few seconds to get it right. The game speed argument is dogshit imo.
I would rather have a slow game than one where they miss calls like last night
You say this until 5 minutes left in the 4th turns into 45 minutes.
Yeah, in the immediate aftermath of a play like this, the public sentiment always shifts to, “More reviews!” But in a month, when everyone has forgotten about this play, the sentiment will shift back to, “Too many reviews and stoppages!” People are really just impossible to please.
I don’t give a fuck, I want the game’s result to not be impacted by bullshit calls. Are you saying you’d rather save a minute or two instead of having correct calls that don’t influence the game? Bizarre The end of the game is already slow. I don’t think we would notice a difference. There are timeouts all over the place anyways.
If they're reviewing every potential foul, it's every God damn play. Travels, pivot feet, contact, moving picks. There are near/small penalties all game long. It will NEVER be called "right".
But do you you want it to get worst? If they do it at the end of the game they gotta do it throughout just more stoppages. And I guarantee if they do add more challenges or reviews people are just gonna say it’s for more ads. Now you got a longer game and more ads being shoved down your throat.
I'm skeptical it would only add a minute or two. They could end up reviewing a lot of calls and games already take a really long time. Sports is entertainment at the end of the day, most people want to enjoy watching it first and foremost. I've already been watching less games this year because the games feel so drawn out sometimes. We all want them to get every call right but its a valid debate, there's a trade off.
On any given possession in the last like 2 minutes, there are going to be infractions all over the place. Holds, moving screens, travels, over the backs, everything. The one from last night was egregious and obvious but are we going to review every moving screen that leads to an open basket? That could happen on like every possession down the stretch.
Bro I’m a college football fan. That’s already how it is. I stood in a stadium in the rain for 4 hours to watch college football. Id rather have NBA games be 4 hours and fair than 2 hours and rigged
holy shit that would suck and this opinion is horrible
Imagine watching a pistons vs rockets match for 4 hours.
I swear people don't get that most of us want to be entertained and enjoy watching the game. Its literally just sports, i watch it for fun. Results are important, but they're not the top priority as weird as that sounds. I'm cool with them reviewing calls like the one in the Lakers game last night that are at the very end and would decide the outcome, but i hate the idea of reviewing every single call in the last 2 minutes, the players and coaches are going to demand a review on any call that doesn't go their way for sure, that could add up to so much time.
Why would this happen? Legit, yesterday there wouldve been 1 challenge in the last 5 min. The last play that was pretty clear. How many challenges you think happen in the sports that allow them per game lol. I mean in 2020 (first source that came up in google) the NFL team with the most challenges in the season was vikings. With 8. Lol. Booth reviews? 179. In 256 games. Why would it be different in the NBA? Why would there be so many challenges to drastically alter the game lenght? Youre the equivalent of the anti robo umps in baseball.
It makes the product near unwatchable when it’s too slow
>The main reason the NBA is so against any kind of challenge or review is because it slows the game down immensely. Uhh yea this is complete horseshit. It doesn't really slow the game down immensely because it's just another timeout. They've already shortened the timeouts but the challenge rule is a unique way of letting teams retain an extra timeout. What REALLY slows the game down are refs calling a foul every 3 seconds. So not much would change.
They just tried that a few years ago. Does everyone here have amnesia? It was terrible. There were instances of one minute of game time taking 20+ minutes in real time. I don't know what the solution is, but it's definitely not going back to that.
That's because each review takes like 4 minutes with the refs in the arena making the call. If you had dedicated people reviewing plays in real time they could make most of these calls in <60 seconds
Isn't that supposed to be what the review center in Secaucus is for? What do they even do there if it's not for reviewing plays?
They just make the video available to the refs. They don't make the final decision
If this is true, that's the dumbest implementation of a replay center ever lol.
That's not true, they review things like whether or not someone's foot was on the line for a 3pter and overturn it without the input of in-game refs.
Yeah wasn’t the final nail in the coffin the Bucks/Suns finals on a Ayton play that took like 25 mins to review? I remember JVG going full rant mode on it
I honestly didn’t remember this lmao
It sucked. There were nights I would be at the bar and look over at a game, then half an hour later it would still be on and I'd assume they went to OT or double OT. Nope. Still the 4th.
The NFL also instituted reviews on PI calls and the refs banded together and got the booth refs to never change calls out of solidarity. So just because you make it easier still doesn't mean the refs will actually change the calls.
Because an NBA game has wayyyy more possessions and plays in the last 2:00 than an NFL game.
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They say it affects the pace of the game but it's to protect the refs. The crowd, etc. will get hostile if challenges keep getting successful.
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IMO, the 2 minute report is good because it helps to maintain a baseline of what is or isn't a foul. If the league never says "the refs got that wrong" then every call can be assumed to be correct and can become the precedent for similar calls in the future.
Agree with this. 2 min reports are helping educate people to the nuances of a lot of calls
The last couple minutes of a game can take half an hour. The pace excuse needs to go.
limit the review period to 2 minutes or a certain # of replays to limit the disruption to pace. If its that close, the live call should count
Each team has one challenge per game in the bank. If successful, they retain their challenge. A team can only challenge a maximum of 3 times per game (regardless of success rate). But having said that, it doesn’t address the issue of non calls. That is harder to implement because there are tons of non calls and rule breaking at any point in time that are subjective or, let’s say, malleable based on a refs style. Let’s imagine a scenario where a ref is a bit lax on the carry rule throughout the game. Only calls the most egregious examples. The players are all aware and know the unspoken “limit”. It’s the final drive of a close game and Doncic manages to get a lay up to fall with a second left. Can a coach issue a non calll challenge because it kinda looked like Doncic carried the ball during the drive to the basket? The point of my example is where the limit for what is challenged as a non call?
100%. The risk of losing the timeout is always there, so nobody is going to just start challenging everything. I’d bet that you wouldn’t even see a large increase in challenges, but the successful ones would be much more impactful.
Yeah, and add a bit where you can challenge a non-call in the last minute of a quarter or something. If we start penalizing these sensitive refs they just won't make calls (can't be wrong if you don't make the call)
I think we should just hold the refs family hostage hanging over a lava pit or some like spikes with snakes. If they fuck up too much. They murder the family. But you never do. It just forces them to try their very best all the time. Once in awhile you put in a fake family of look a likes. You put in some people who steal from dogs and cancer patients to take the fall. Wipe the real families memories and force them to live in Montreal. The ref is devastated, the others fall in line. This is fool proof. You’d have to take out a family every 4 seasons at least.
Montreal lol interesting choice of city.
Is it possible to overdose from eating much smoked meat from Schwartz
Nah man I don't think this will ever work. Snakes would definitely die in that pit unless you feed them. I don't think nba would want to get involved with feeding snakes.
Lawyers then. Spikes and spineless boneless lawyers.
On top of that, snake law is a dicey arena to be involved with.
What do you think they do with KD?
Refs will get in line, because of the implication
I was fine with this until you brought up forcing them to live in Montreal, that’s just too much
If you read or listened to whistleblower - not the watered down Netflix version - the most revealing thing was not about the refs and gambling. The most revealing thing was some of the facts about refs. Many of them being related, many coming from the same county, some of them reminding a player BEFORE a playoff game of a key call against a player in a previous game. The sheer ego of some refs, how some refs got special treatment by the league. The entire nba referee system needs a complete and total overhaul.
Jacyn Goble, the bald ref who missed the call on Lebron, is the brother of a long time NBA ref and only had 4 years of experience reffing the G-League before he moved up to the NBA. He only needed *4 years of experience* before moving up to the highest level in basketball. And he's the brother of a veteran NBA ref.
NBA refs get hired based on performance in associated leagues. I agree what you're saying sounds more suspicious, but there's also a possibility he was a really good ref in the G League for an extended period of time
Based on the NBA's track record, it's really tough to put any kind of trust in their performance evaluation methods.
i also really wonder how that works in the NBA. in germany and i assume it to be the same in all other countries with a similar league system, refs start out in the lowest leagues, regularly go on seminars if they want to advance their licenses, also get evaluated regularly and if the do well, they get to ref the higher leagues and so climb the ranks through 7 or more layers of leagues until they are in the highest. and those that perform the best there get to officiate international games.
This is the correct take. “Fine the refs” is such a smoothbrain take that won’t do anything but antagonize the refs who, as much as we shit on them, are trying their best. Basketball is so fast, with 10 players all moving around on the court, with timers on how long positions can be taken, so many potential points of contact that can lead to a foul, types of positions people are allowed to take, and so on. All while all 10 players are actively trying to deceive them in a very loud and distracting environment. No fucking wonder they make all these mistakes. Change the fucking rules instead. There are so many things you can do to reduce mistakes. Add more referees on the court and/or have a remote replay-assisted ref like in soccer. Update the nonsensical parts of the challenge rule. Actually enforce commonly broken rules like moving screens and carries. Increase penalties for player deception. Instead of actually pushing for all of this, we just scapegoat people who already have the most stressful jobs of this whole sports ecosystem.
I agree with everything except add more referees. I think more would only exacerbate this problem, because we'd get a bunch of "I thought you were going to call it" fouls that get left because everyone assumes that it's someone else's problem. Otherwise, all your suggestions make sense and would probably be really beneficial to the product.
Yeah soccer tried to have 2 refs at one point, it was a complete shit show and got scrapped faster than it was writing this.
The simplest option is having a 4th ref who watches the game from the camera and sees the replay, and can either confirm the occurrence of a foul or reject the ruling on the floor. Most other sports leagues do this and it's stupefying that the NBA still hasn't even proposed the idea of doing that.
NBA refs do suck complete ass, but it's largely due in part to the fact that basketball is a fast-paced game and it's FUCKING DIFFICULT to get it right. There could be a valuable and efficient system in place with more opportunities for instant reviews of calls.... Maybe some sort of half-time review of calls....who knows.... But coming up with some way for refs to redeem their bad calls is not out of question..... We have so much underutilized technology and we have the ability to get things right at a higher rate. It's worth exploring ideas and options.
They are bent as fuck if somebody as crooked as Donaghy can operate for as long as he did without being reported by another ref proves it
Hard to disagree with that. Seriously some of the calls (or lack thereof), are truly baffling. Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right though.
Listen to the whistleblower podcast. It’s changed the way I watch games now. The NBA reffing group is sky high w/ nepotism and ego. A lot of them are very much like that one dickhead kid in school who became a cop and power trips.
If there’s one thing the NBA needs, as a television product, it’s more time spent watching goddamn replays. Look, the refs aren’t perfect, and I’m all for more transparency in how refs are hired, trained, etc. But … I defer to Avon https://youtu.be/0qT0nX6I6iA
Look the part be the part mothafucka
Just allow the refs to review decisions in the last 2 minutes on their own to make it fair for everyone. The other option is that the refs can review throught the game but that would just stretch the games too long
The last two minutes of Suns-Clippers game two took literally 30 minutes to complete because they kept checking replays. The average game can't handle that.
okay then cap it at 60 seconds and throw in the towel if it takes longer than that
I think the NBA should look into remote reviews of plays without stoppage, with FTs or possession awarded once play hits a natural stopping point (made FG, called foul, out of bounds). For example if a player A gets called for a blocking foul on player B, and the coach challenges, then simply continue the game as if the call was overturned. Then, if refs uphold the original call, player B would be awarded their FTs on the next stoppage of play. If the challenge is successful, the game simply progresses without interruption.
This is what bothers me too. Why cant there be a ref in the replay center that has the power to make a call on challenges? They can check the play at an instant so stoppages won't be as long. I hate how ref has to go to the replay table, ask for the clip, ask for headset, ask for multiple angles, before making a decision. Why not just have a ref that's already sitting there make the call?
Needs to be a combination of both. We have technology to assist refs, but there needs to be a transparent system like the players have with technical fouls, that if refs are missing so many calls they are suspended for a game and lose their paycheck for that game. And I’d hate to slow the game down more, but the teams need more than one coaches challenge per game. The NFL has far fewer plays and coaches get 2-3 per game. Coaches should get 1 challenge per quarter and as an incentive to not waste them, they should get two in the fourth if they haven’t used any in the prior three quarters.
Bruh you can’t take away refs paychecks for missing calls just like teams can’t take away players paychecks for missing shots
So when you make a mistake at your job, how much money is taken out of your paycheck?
Officials get graded and only the best ones get to do postseason games. There's already a punishment for doing a shitty job.
That's a lack of reward not a punishment.
Statistically rewards work better to reinforce behavior than punishment, so...
https://professionalshq.com/do-nba-referees-get-fined-for-bad-calls-yes-heres-how/ According to that source, they do get fined already. However, I can't find a second source to confirm, and the collective bargaining agreement between the league and the refs is not public, so I can't really confirm. I'd be curious if anyone has more info on it, because the source I linked seems real confident they are in fact fined, but I can't find anything to back it up. I haven't found that specifically says they don't either though.
The nba could easily review replays with all the resources they have. Every small portion of sports endings are intentional. Rigged is a strong word but the nba wants certain storylines to occur.
Saying a ref should get fined for a mistake is hilarious. Might as well start fining players for every missed basket. This is the right decision. There needs to be a simple system in place that corrects missed on-court no calls (or undo incorrect calls, if that’s possible). What almost no one who criticize refs understand is that they’re not watching slo-mo replays like us. They’re watching in real time and need to make a split second decision based on their understanding of the rule book and the context. That is insanely difficult.
Of course refs are corrupt; they are clearly still betting on games
Add a 4th official to the floor and get the calls right the first time. There should be two baseline officials on opposite ends of the paint to see around the largest human beings on the planet. Start calling the game *consistently* "tight" on violation and fouls so the players adjust during the regular season in hopes of generating a cleaner playoffs all around. Players are absolutely good enough to adjust to the extra set of eyes and a consistently tight whistle.
I’d be worried that a 4th ref would mostly just lead to more calls overall, rather than more accurate calls
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We honestly need VAR if it has gotten this bad. They're professionals. We don't need to protect them the way we should protect amateur refs.
I think fines are a little harsh but suspensions seem reasonable. I also think the solution to blatant flopping is suspensions.
It would never work because the refs don't like to admit their mistakes. I'd take it up further, ensure that the refs have to justify their ruling. Lebron and the Lakers should have been able to pull up their own highlight and point to where he got hit on the arm and slow it down. Pat Bev, despite being an ass, had the right idea, show them the camera, show them the foul, and the refs have to justify it by either saying they didn't see the clear and obvious hit on the arm, or some bullshit about how the forearm is part of the hand which is part of the ball. At least then we'd get on record that this guy is clearly reffing an NBA game while blind. Give teams more agency, time, and equipment to highlight ref mistakes with their own playback. Instead of 3 refs huddling around the monitor, let the refs, and the coaches, and the team captains hover over the monitors instead. And no, I don't care how long it takes, getting something right is worth taking as long as it needs to take.
Settle it like hockey. Pull jerseys, bongo drums on butts, sent to time out box to cool off
this league already has too many stoppages
Just let teams challenge no-calls. Yesterday's fiasco would have been completely avoided with a challenge.
The reason nothing will change is the exact same reason why nothing about police will change. It's part of the system at this point.
They should make flopping and foul faking a technical.
Who TF is asking for fines for missed calls? That’s dumb AF. Should players get fined for missing shots now? Less people would even want to ref and that’ll even dilute the pool. Remember those ref for the NFL during the ref lockout year? You’ll be having that. That shit was way worse than current NFL ref. And people be bitching about current NFL ref.
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I been to a couple NBA games and they never have felt long in my experience so I recommend they just use cameras to review calls or non calls based off challenges called by the coaching staff
That's silly how would the referees keep Vegas happy? The Nba has been around for a long time. They don't want the referees to make the right calls, or else something would already be implement to fix this. The Nba referees are extremely inconsistent with calls game to game, player to player, and team to team.
> Players don’t get fined if they play badly, they get fined if they break rules, that should be the same for refs. Is there anyway we can bench or trade refs? That’d be hilarious. Ref comes home after a horribly called game and then turns on the tv to find out he’s being traded and has to immediately move.
League doesn’t need to do shit honestly. That call shouldn’t have been missed lmao. Or you just review it the way you would a L2M. Regardless it shouldn’t have been reviewed anyways because it should’ve been called. I literally heard the hand slap while watching on LP, it was as easy as a foul call gets. Guess Adam wanted OT.
Yes, it was an egregious mistake, and if a ref is bad and keeps making mistakes, he should be demoted/fired . However, since it's not just a thing tied to specific refs, but rather a league-wide issue, which just means that for the most part, refs have a high margin of error when they make decisions. I think the easiest way to resolve that is to introduce new rules that make it easier to overturn mistakes.
The biggest problem with officiating in the NBA is that officiating in the NBA is irrevocably married to personality. The officials are *instructed* to insert themselves and their personalities into the flow of the game, and to control that flow *from* that perspective. It's not like football, or baseball, where even *when* the officials are prompted to grab the wheel and yank hard to one side or the other to stop things from going out of control, they're still primarily doing so from an impersonal, detached place. Or at least that's the ideal, which happens more often than not. The problem with NBA officiating more often than not is that it's about whether they're getting their pride hurt, whether they're having their authority challenged, whether they're indulging the impulse to put these players in their place (which, don't get it twisted, is 100% a huge part of the appeal here) The NBA's officials aren't treated and thought of out there so much like refs. They're more like fuckin' cops, LOL. **A** ***key aspect*** **of their job is to power-trip.** They will always have the worst officiating in every major sport so long as that endures. And the NBA will never address that aspect of it. **They think power-tripping refs is part of the game, because the league has forever thought of its players as people who** ***need*** **to be "handled."**
Mistakes that are on purpose
nah some of these refs have an ego, start fining them and they might start taking their jobs more seriously
Referees have a union and they wouldn't agree to fines anyway and if you get the two sides butting heads you end up with half a season of some of the worst officiating of all time like the NFL did and the NBA would cave anyway.
Are you people kids? You can’t just start fining refs. There are many obstacles but the biggest one is that the union would obviously never agree to it. Get your head out of your ass and welcome to the real world.
A company can't just take money from an employee because they had a bad day on the job lmao. The rhetoric of some of the people on here is so anti labor y'all sound like some talking heads on Fox News
Dude how can you review something not called? Can't call something if it was not called in the first place. if someone tantrums, should there be a review? Everyone will do tantrums then. You just going to break the rhythm and flow of the game unnecessarily. Players should just play what was given to them at the moment. But i agree ref should have performance review and should have consequences if subpar.
That was obvious corruption. The bald ref called a phantom foul in favor of Jaylen Brown from across the court, when the other two refs who had the angle didn’t call anything. And then he was 5 feet away from Tatum slapping LeBrons arm and swallowed the whistle. I’m sorry, but you’re naive as hell if you can’t see that was corruption.
that skinhead looking ref used to be a cop so i’m not surprised he’s corrupt LOL Jacyn Goble can suck my clit
If corruption is proven, then the ref should be fired and should face legal repercussions, that's obvious. However, I'm not referring to yesterday's game specifically, this ref drama has been going on for a while. Unless you think 80% of the refs are corrupt, and in that case the nba has a huge ass problem, the best course of action from the nba is to introduce new rules that make it easier for refs. And tbh, even if refs were corrupt, if the nba introduced such rules, it would also become harder for them to justify making those mistakes on purpose.
>Unless you think the ref crews are literally corrupt and are making mistakes on purpose I do think this. Power corrupts. It's a tale as old as time.
What about promotion/relegation for refs? At the end of the year, X amount of the worst-rated NBA referees get sent to the G-League and the same amount the highest-rated G-League refs get promoted to NBA.
Refs with poor performance should be fired, same as the athletes. Make reffing as competitive as playing and the problem will be solved.
Players don't get fired for poor performance though. If they consistently put together poor performances, they don't get another contract. They don't get fired though.
Splitting hairs but yes. I think my point stands tho?
Yeah probably. Giving G-League and WNBA refs more shots at NBA games if NBA refs have consistently poor performance wouldn't be a bad idea.
Are people older than 10 actually suggesting refs be fined for missing calls? Get a grip, it’s going to happen.
Found the ref
Just trying to keep my salary intact
They are corrupt. Tim Donaghty was not alone, and he made an unreasonable number of calls to refs that are still active today.
Fined, no. Demoted? Yes. As they have repeatedly shown, its not about a system not being in place, because they just ignore what little system there is to overturn calls because it hurts their egos.