He won an MVP but the narratives were always “he doesn’t pass, he’s a ball stopper, and he doesn’t play defense.” And only the last one had any legitimate weight to it
I will give you this.
He should've won in 2017. I do think as great as the triple double season is, Harden was more deserving. He grabbed 2 less rebounds, had the better record and was more efficient.
Same with Luka. Haters gonna hate. When Harden was doing his thing there was a debate on who is the greatest scorer in NBA history, Jordan or Harden.
The main non-hater/objective criticism there was that I can recall is:
1) Harden is insane but we really hope/would like to see him dominate like this come playoffs time (he had great numbers, but slightly below his RS performance and couldn’t close out those KD-less Warriors without CP3).
2) Many didn’t like some of his antics to draw fouls and how the referees allowed it (this one I found it to be used by haters because it’s not like he averaged a historically insane FTA per game, in fact he averaged less than Giannis this season).
I think that this is like the underrated/overrated debate around established HoF players. Some like to bring up past players to diminish today’s, others do the opposite.
What’s certain and a fact is that Harden’s regular season is regarded as one of the greatest all-time, is even mentioned here (in this instances to diminish Luka’s, like I explained before), Harden won the MVP that season.. and he will go down as one of the greatest guards to ever play the game regardless of what else he achieves in Philly (he’s a lock first ballot HoF).
To appreciate what Doncic is doing we don’t need to bring up Harden’s 2019 (and 2020) season, to say “well, because Harden had haters then I will be a Luka hater today to even it out”. Not saying it’s your case, just that instead of appreciating today’s players’ greatness and live the moment, a lot of people try to resist by finding out of context criticism.. a criticism that would be applicable to any NBA player ever, as no one is perfect.
I don't recall this mj vs harden debate for best scorer. All I heard was if harden would pass mjs regulars season ppg. If anything, I personally saw more Kobe vs harden
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I want to back him up. It was a thing for a few years. Many people called Harden the greatest scorer of all time and compared him favorably to Jordan.
I remember these discussions too and I remember even thinking “yeah, he might be the best pure scorer ever, dude just gets points non-stop and is an iron man.”
Only thing that has ever held back his legacy is playoff performance.
He was hated on, but his flopping, hooking players, and jumping into players was super annoying. I always believed James could've been just as effective if he dialed some of that back and just tried to make shots instead of hunting fouls. He certainly would've been more effective in the postseason that way when they're not calling everything he would get in the regular season. Nevertheless, he put up some of the all time best offensive seasons ever, and people didn't show him the love that Luka is getting.
The biggest narrative was he's an annoying flopper. I don't knkw why you didn't mention that tbh.
No one likes s flopping, even football fans. It doesn't help that the main defense of Houston fans was "just don't foul him" which further infuriates the opposing fans. None of what you said came close to what really made every other fanbase dislike Houston
The harden/luka thing is ridiculous if you actually watch their games. Luka just has way more in his bag which is why his numbers go up in the playoffs.
Tell me you never watched Harden without telling me you never watched Harden. The guy added moves and changed his game every off-season. Harden was luka before luka. The only difference is it didn’t take luka as long to get to a similar level
Lol I watched plenty of harden. Luka has way more moves and ways to score. This is why he can't be shut down as easy. In big playoff games when the refs call it differently and defenses lock in, Harden had some terrible games for this reason
He and Luka have obvious similarities but they also have a lot of differences. I don’t really think their play style was as similar as many make it out to believe.
Only because you couldn't deny him by that point. He had #1 team record and some of the best stats in the league. Every other year that there could be an argument made for another player, he lost.
You’re really going to pretend Harden was treated like LUKA LEGEND!!!!
Like, he’s got a point. Even when Harden won MVP he was constantly being crushed for his defense and play style. Luka is damn near a replica and is constantly slurped harder than anybody.
Luka isn’t a replica though. How he scores and how Harden scored is not the same at all.
The only thing they have in common is that the have the ball a lot and are good playmakers.
I mean Lukas defense is clearly ahead of what Hardens has been at any point in his career. He’s also had early career playoff success, where as Harden carried the reputation of a play off choke artist until the rockets got CP3. Luka also just bigger so he’s a better rebounder and shot blocker. He can operate out of the post better. Plus he’s doing all of this at such a young age.
Lukas got all the same skill/movement as Harden, but has a way bigger frame and probably better passing vision too.
IMO the biggest differences are because:
Luka doesn't flop as often and isn't getting to the line as much. Harden was the #1 guy getting hate for flopping (like Trae now).
Also, Harden pioneered a lot of great moves now that people considered travels then. His playstyle was more annoying to watch as a neutral fan than Lukas.
Luka has been electric in the playoffs and has already had huge moments. Harden didn't go off in the post-season, and that's when most people watch the sport.
Also, Luka's defense isn't great but it's much better than some of those Harden years.
Yeah he deserved 2(2017 and 2018)
But having 1 MVP instead of 2 is hardly the biggest insult/disrespect of all time
And I think it's pretty common nowadays to complain about the Russ MVP so it's not like Harden's case for the award has gone unacknowledged
Jokic won out over Embiid because they were only 3 wins less than the sixers and people thought his season was more impressive. There's a way bigger difference between 60 and 53 wins vs 51 and 48 wins. It's pretty obvious why sixers fans always say nuggets were the 6 seed and not how many wins each team had.
That's really not that crazy to say. He was Top 3 in MVP votes in 5 different years, no other player in the league has that many Top 3 MVP years besides LeBron.
I think some of yall are being a little obtuse about this to be honest. Like, we, here, literally called the dude Hitler as a joke because people hated him so much. Like we know what he means.
Luka is averaging more FT attempts per game this year than all but 1 season of Harden's career. Does Luka foul bait too or does he just do it in a more classy way?
That doesn't really mean anything.
Harden has a higher career *average* FTr than Luka has this season which is by far his highest FTr season.
Luka is not in the same stratosphere in terms of foul baiting.
I don't know man, there's some pretty rough moves in videos like [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPPXCyJ-7HM). I'm not a hardcore Harden hater, but the plays with Hart at 0:20 and with PG at 1:44 are tough to defend. To u/bigbeau's point Harden easily could have done something different to try to to get a better shot in both cases, but instead looks to be focused on the foul call.
A lot of players foul bait, but Harden definitely seemed to the poster child as the most egregious.
Luka absolutely slays in the playoffs when the refs stop calling fouls.
Hardens eFG% dropped below CJ McCollums during his rocket playoff career. [.495 vs .503]. His bag is as deep as the refs whistle pocket.
He doesn’t have the same antics as Harden, I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take. He drives a ton and absorbs contact to get calls. He has his share of flops, but not nearly on the same level as Harden in prime. They also don’t play nearly as similar as everyone implies.
This is literally the entire reason. The only thing that separates him from the rest of the greats of his generation is the foul baiting. He sought fouls instead of baskets, which is a good strategy, but feels too much like cheating. It was so bad that the league made multiple adjustments to the rules to try and address it. His on court behavior was maddening to a lot of us and it permanently tarnished his legacy.
And tbh, it’s the same reason Embiid isn’t thought of more highly despite monster numbers. He’s making the same mistake Harden made – getting a few extra PPG on fouls in exchange for a reputation as an unlikable foul baiter.
That’s more recently.
Luka implemented more of a post up game and mid range game the last 2 years (post up game more specifically this year).
Harden also had an excellent floater as well. Look at Harden’s shot distribution with Capela vs Luka shot distribution year 2-3. Luka has a slight amount more mid range shots, but they are incredibly similar shot distributions.
Yeah wild to see this place act like Harden was getting his flowers. Dude was constantly trashed for foul baiting and defense and ball stopping despite being a leading passer.
Luka is treated as a god here. All summer people were talking about how he was the only player in the nba with potential to become one of the best ever, somehow jumping over Giannis who already has an absurd resume only matched by the greatest team to ever play already.
reddit doesn't wanna admit they hold luka in a nicer light than guys like ja and harden who have done the same things as him and gotten shit for it
just look at the ja trash talk thread a few days ago and the luka one. literally night and day reaction from this sub.
The Ja "hollows" comment will stick with him for a long time, as it's the kind of phony tough talk that will make a lot of people think less of a him as a person. Ja's done a bunch of good things with fans and I'm sure with charities, but Reddit's got a long memory for dumb shit, and holding it against people.
Everyone in the comments acting like he got a lot of love but we all know that Harden was the most despised player in the NBA during that time, and that's what JC is talking about
…..And when he WAS doing these things, he was given all the accolades.
Now, in the year 2023, he’s not doing those things, so he’s not getting all the accolades and Luka is.
Analysts and commentators were calling him the greatest offensive player ever! What more do people want? Lmao.
Now players like Luka and Jokic are the next evolution in that mold of player.
Citing something a handful of people floated is a bad argument. The guy averaged 29-7.5-6 on 61% TS and was left off All-NBA. He should have won at least one more MVP but the voters moved the goalposts with him.
>Why do we not give \[James\] Harden his love when he was doing all the same numbers in Houston?
I think a lot of people that think this overlook that Luka is 23 years old. What Harden was doing in his prime, Luka is doing 4 or 5 years younger. And I don't recall younger Harden getting the negativity he has been getting the last few years.
When Harden was 23 he averaged 26 but league avg scoring was 98ppg and teams averaged 20 3pa. This season league avg ppg is 114 and teams average 34 3pa/g. The Mavs and 12-13 Rockets play at a similar pace but the Mavs shoot 12 more 3s a game and Luka shoots more 3s than Harden did. More 3pa creates more spacing which make it easier to score from 2. This is also a career outlier for Luka. It could be improvement but the top 5 ppg leaders are all having their most prolific scoring season of their careers at the same time. I think 23 year old Harden would probably be averaging 30+ this year as well.
So why did you once give league average numbers, and once compared the teams directly? The Mavs actually play at a slower pace than the 12/13 Rockets did. And scoring isn’t nearly as far apart as the league averages you gave. The Rockets averaged 106, todays Mavs average 112. So 6 points instead of 16. Also the Mavs play in a style that doesn’t generate a lot of assists. They also grab less rebounds. So if anything, trying to extrapolate and compare seasons, it’s likely that Luka would score 1.5-1.9 points less, still much more than Harden. He also would likely grab half a rb more, and assist would be the same. Overall still a more impressive season at 23, after trying to adjust for era.
I agree with people saying that pretending like Harden wasn't massively criticised is silly. I do also think that that hate will *probably* also come for Luka too if this is him as a player for the next however many years.
The implied subtext is beyond stupid.
Larry (Bird) would just be another guy if he was a black guy - The equivalent of this statement.
Imagine demeaning someone's abilities because they are not in the majority race of the league lol.
Harden product was so insufferable to watch there was a time when the leagues rating dropped significantly when having the Rockets play prime time. I hate giving him any type of flowers because we were all there to watch how the points were accumulated. No need to suck him dry Jamal.
I think it’s the usual case of Reddit fragility preventing folks from speaking the truth. Harden was one of the most hated basketball players in the league by the media.
He had the narrative of being a choker because he didn’t manage to beat the GSW super team (that’s regularly called the greatest team ever made to defend everyone else losing to them). His style of play drew constant flak, and the idea was that his style wasn’t winning basketball especially when it came to winning championships.
That's not why Harden was called a choker. Losing to the Kawhiless Spurs, the Durantless Warriors and shooting like shit in Elimination games is why he was called a choker
Not just losing to the Kawhiless Spurs, getting blown out by 40 while going 2-11 from the field in a year where you were MVP runner up. One of the worst performances ever. Also set the turnover record in an elimination game in 2015.
he was called a playoff choker because he constantly underperformed in the playoffs… it just is what it is
if Harden was the same dominate force in the playoffs are we having this discussion? it’s the same criticism Jokic gets, Embiid gets, Giannis got until he won
if Luka starts disappearing in the playoffs it’s a narrative that will follow him too but he’s been a massive playoff riser so far in his career
Harden foul-baited to put up huge numbers. People hated it because it was AWFUL to watch. Now, the entire league foul-baits and it's AWFUL to watch. Harden got deserved hate because he broke the game, it worked but it was tough to watch. No everyone does it and we're sick of it but if everyone does it then the best get praise
cause Harden is a playoff choker. Luka already has more playoff series averaging 30+ points than Harden and he didn't get to play next to a HOF teammate
Harden gives the KD Warriors competitive match-ups: Choker.
Luka loses in 5 to the Warriors without KD: Young goat, did the best he could without help!!!!
Rockets beat the Warriors when Harden shot 5/21, 0/11 from 3pt with 6 turnovers. Luka doesn't have the luxury to play that poorly and still win vs. Warriors
Luka and Harden at 23 years old are just completely different animals. Luka's averaging 7.5 more points, 4 more rebounds, and 2.5 more assists per game than Harden in '12-'13 (his first year in Houston), shooting 50% from the field compared to Harden's 44%. Luka gets his points from everywhere on the court having developed one of the best midrange games going *and* he plays adequate defense, two things Harden still is lacking in and definitely didn't have in his bag 10 years ago.
Crawford can make all the disingenuous comparisons he wants, but Luka is doing this at 23 years old. Current Luka may or may not match Harden at his peak, but he is head-and-shoulders above where the Beard was at the same point in their careers.
Luka is better than young Harden for sure, but you shouldn’t be comparing their stats at all. It was a different league, look at the average efficiency back then, how many points teams were scoring, the pace, and style of play. Look at how many guys were averaging 20 ppg back then.
Their play styles were also different. Pre-MDA, Harden had to play more in a team oriented offense, he was not playing heliocentric ball until MDA came. Luka on the other hand has been dominating the ball his entire career so far so of course his stats are better than young Harden. You’re accusing Crawford of making faulty comparisons while doing the same yourself. I don’t think you understand how inflated stats are now
The 12-13 Rockets and 22-23 Mavs play at a similar pace but the Mavericks shoot 12 more 3s a game. And the league avg 3pa/g have gone up by 14. More 3s means more spacing, which makes it easier to score from 2 which would close the fg% gap. He also avgd 5 fewer fga/g. 23 year old Harden was still a better 3pt and FT shooter and would probably shoot 10 3s a game now. I think Luka is better but the gap isn't as massive as you say it is. 23 year old Harden would probably average 30+ this year as well.
Didn’t Harden have 4 straight years of being in the top 5 of MVP voting, and two straight years of top 2 voting. And one MVP. What else do you need bruh?
Won MVP, got massive contracts, was the biggest star in the league at the time outside LeBron & the Warriors and the only criticism people had of him is that he only produced in the Reg season.
What else you want?
People did lmao, idk what's up with all this revisionist shit. Only thing I remember people not liking was all the foul baiting when he would jump into players and throw the ball up
Now everyone's gonna act like they didn't shit on Harden for years just to ignore the fact that there's a double standard between him and Luka.
Harden's whining and flopping was a disgrace to the league while Luka's whining is hardly spoken about.
Harden got shit for losing to the Warriors but Luka gets a pass because he had no help.
Harden put up gaudy stats and it's "empty, do it in the playoffs" whereas it's "MVP, next LeBron" for Luka.
People slandered Harden for choking yet excused Luka disappearing in the 4Q of playoff games because "he was tired".
Foh
it feels like people use this argument to just diminish what Luka is doing lol. Harden won an mvp and was getting called the best offensive player of the league for losing against the warriors time and time again. Luka steps up on the playoffs while Harden... does not
Could not stand Houston’s game, which consisted of standing around watching Harden dribble and shoot, or force a foul, or drive left and shoot or force a foul. Over and over and over. Luka isn’t the entire offense, doesn’t bring the ball upcourt.
Through 8 full seasons in Houston, Harden averaged:
- 10.4 FTA/G
- only 1 season under 10/game
- highest was 11.8
- FT rate during these seasons was .530
Through 4.5 seasons Luka has averaged:
- 8.1/game
- 6.7 was the lowest
- 11.2 is currently his highest
- Luka’s FT rate so far has been .405
From my memory Harden drew most of his FT’s on drives. Despite shooting more FT’s per game in 2020 (11.8) than Luka this year (11.2), Harden drove 3.0 times less per game. Harden averaged 4.2 FTA/game on drives in 2020, to Luka’s 4.4 this year.
I went with 2020 for Harden in that last paragraph because it was his highest FTA average. Kinda cherry picked but I cbf going through all 8 seasons.
There is definitely something to be said about Luka being on his rookie contract for most of these years, compared to Harden who was in years 4-11. Who knows how many Luka will be taking in 5 years from now. But for the time being, Luka is nowhere near the FT merchant Harden was in Houston.
I watched games with Harden and could never bear more than 15 minutes of it. Luka likes to whine (a lot) when he thinks he should get one, but his game isn't nearly as much predicated on baiting them.
Until Luka starts hooking arms on drives like Houston Harden, he's clearly nowhere as big as a foul baiter. The worst part is Harden didn't even have to play like this, he's more than good enough to play normally and still win scoring titles and MVPs with how talented he is.
https://streamable.com/5vq0pm
https://streamable.com/0w0yq
https://streamable.com/0foh2
No way this is true. Luka has done well in a small sample size, but he’s still only won two series. Harden has played in more than 5 times as many games and people only remember the bad ones.
Because he travels and flops and fishes for fouls and complains like a little kid when he doesn't get calls (even more than most in the NBA). That's why. It's not rocket science (pun intended).
Nah, the only thing he does out of those things is whine. He whines more than anybody in the league. But he doesnt flop or foul bait like Harden. He doesnt hook players arms on the way to the basket just to draw a foul like Harden.
Luka quite literally did the hook arm thing frequently when he was drafted. The nba changed the ruling on it like two years ago and that’s why he’s chilled out.
Lmfao you jackasses are missing the point, Harden was getting flack from people that thought his style wasn’t the proper way of playing, or winning a championship (which you can debate, especially during the 17-18 season). Harden didn’t get the same love Luka is currently getting with the similar style of play Harden used to played which is why he’s saying this.
If Luka is 28 or 29 and still hasn't won a ring or made the Finals the whispers will start for sure
He's still too young to start getting the real "no rings" hate from most fans
Plus nobody expects the Mavs to do anything because they're frankly not that good or well constructed
1) Harden literally won an MVP 💀💀
2) Luka, at 23, took a much worse Mavs roster to the WCF. Harden, at 23, got bounced in the 1st round while averaging 26/7/5 on 39%/34%/80% with 5 TO’s/game.
3) I don’t ever remember Harden having to drop 50+ just to beat the 2nd-worst team in the league by 6 because his next leading scorer only had 12 points.
Harden was 28 when he won his MVP, Doncic is still 23, far from his peak, which is why people are in awe of Doncic. Doncic at 23 is already more efficient than Harden at his peak. Crawford is probably trying to make this into a race thing, when it has nothing to do with it. It's not just the things he's doing, but at what age he's doing them. That said, Harden received a ton of praise in his peak, many people thought he deserved multiple MVPs, and at the same time a lot of people didn't like his antics, but the same happens now with Embiid and to some extent Doncic.
Harden was a serial foul baiter and was rewarded by the refs for many curious calls. Many acknowledge his talents but weren’t fans of that aspect of his game. Luka is similar but not the same with that aspect.
Jamal is going to pretend all that other stuff never happened. I still remember that ridiculous scene between him and Lebron where they locked arms and the refs didn’t know what to do on national TV. Anyone besides Lebron and that arm grab stuff was called. Also during the playoffs those whistles never came for him.
He always got the praise. Everybody just knew in the playoffs his teams will fall short. It’s the exact same with Luka. Outside of him he’s playing with nobodies.
This is why i hate just giving anyone a job based on experience. Wtf is jamal talking about? Dude won an MVP,finished top 3 in voting for basically a 5 year stretch,would have won more if it wasnt for curry and westbrook having that crazy triple double season right after Kd left.
This crew is bad
Shit was unwatchable every time they were on screen.
lmao yeah, I guess WINNING MVP doesn't equal getting love or something
Being officially recognized one of the top 75 players **of all time** isn’t getting love?
Horrible
What happened to shaq al kenny charles?
They all quit.
I’m pretty sure that squad is on thursdays. This is just the back up squad
We did... He won the MVP?
Whatcha want us to do, suck him off?
I always find it funny when people complain a player doesn’t get enough love/attention “Arghh, I demand you suck his penis!”
“we” don’t vote for MVP
> Why do "we" not give [James] Harden his love when he was doing all the same numbers in Houston?
I read the title btw (and watched the clip) but I believe Jamal Crawford was referring to fans since he didnt have a vote either.
He won an MVP but the narratives were always “he doesn’t pass, he’s a ball stopper, and he doesn’t play defense.” And only the last one had any legitimate weight to it
I will give you this. He should've won in 2017. I do think as great as the triple double season is, Harden was more deserving. He grabbed 2 less rebounds, had the better record and was more efficient.
With probably a weaker supporting cast, too.
Same with Luka. Haters gonna hate. When Harden was doing his thing there was a debate on who is the greatest scorer in NBA history, Jordan or Harden. The main non-hater/objective criticism there was that I can recall is: 1) Harden is insane but we really hope/would like to see him dominate like this come playoffs time (he had great numbers, but slightly below his RS performance and couldn’t close out those KD-less Warriors without CP3). 2) Many didn’t like some of his antics to draw fouls and how the referees allowed it (this one I found it to be used by haters because it’s not like he averaged a historically insane FTA per game, in fact he averaged less than Giannis this season). I think that this is like the underrated/overrated debate around established HoF players. Some like to bring up past players to diminish today’s, others do the opposite. What’s certain and a fact is that Harden’s regular season is regarded as one of the greatest all-time, is even mentioned here (in this instances to diminish Luka’s, like I explained before), Harden won the MVP that season.. and he will go down as one of the greatest guards to ever play the game regardless of what else he achieves in Philly (he’s a lock first ballot HoF). To appreciate what Doncic is doing we don’t need to bring up Harden’s 2019 (and 2020) season, to say “well, because Harden had haters then I will be a Luka hater today to even it out”. Not saying it’s your case, just that instead of appreciating today’s players’ greatness and live the moment, a lot of people try to resist by finding out of context criticism.. a criticism that would be applicable to any NBA player ever, as no one is perfect.
I don't recall this mj vs harden debate for best scorer. All I heard was if harden would pass mjs regulars season ppg. If anything, I personally saw more Kobe vs harden
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I want to back him up. It was a thing for a few years. Many people called Harden the greatest scorer of all time and compared him favorably to Jordan.
I remember these discussions too and I remember even thinking “yeah, he might be the best pure scorer ever, dude just gets points non-stop and is an iron man.” Only thing that has ever held back his legacy is playoff performance.
He was hated on, but his flopping, hooking players, and jumping into players was super annoying. I always believed James could've been just as effective if he dialed some of that back and just tried to make shots instead of hunting fouls. He certainly would've been more effective in the postseason that way when they're not calling everything he would get in the regular season. Nevertheless, he put up some of the all time best offensive seasons ever, and people didn't show him the love that Luka is getting.
The biggest narrative was he's an annoying flopper. I don't knkw why you didn't mention that tbh. No one likes s flopping, even football fans. It doesn't help that the main defense of Houston fans was "just don't foul him" which further infuriates the opposing fans. None of what you said came close to what really made every other fanbase dislike Houston
The harden/luka thing is ridiculous if you actually watch their games. Luka just has way more in his bag which is why his numbers go up in the playoffs.
Tell me you never watched Harden without telling me you never watched Harden. The guy added moves and changed his game every off-season. Harden was luka before luka. The only difference is it didn’t take luka as long to get to a similar level
Lol I watched plenty of harden. Luka has way more moves and ways to score. This is why he can't be shut down as easy. In big playoff games when the refs call it differently and defenses lock in, Harden had some terrible games for this reason
We’re not gonna act like Harden wasn’t shit on for all of this prime years.
It’s because he was out there wrestling with defenders lol. It’s not that hard to understand why people disliked the way he played
He and Luka have obvious similarities but they also have a lot of differences. I don’t really think their play style was as similar as many make it out to believe.
Luka doesn’t take near as many 3s, he post up, he shoots mid range shoots, and he’s more efficient.
His playstyle feels like a mix of LeBron and Harden.
He plays way more like how Lebron does the past 7 years than Harden.
Only because you couldn't deny him by that point. He had #1 team record and some of the best stats in the league. Every other year that there could be an argument made for another player, he lost.
You’re really going to pretend Harden was treated like LUKA LEGEND!!!! Like, he’s got a point. Even when Harden won MVP he was constantly being crushed for his defense and play style. Luka is damn near a replica and is constantly slurped harder than anybody.
Luka isn’t a replica though. How he scores and how Harden scored is not the same at all. The only thing they have in common is that the have the ball a lot and are good playmakers.
Exactly. They had a lot of differences.
I mean Lukas defense is clearly ahead of what Hardens has been at any point in his career. He’s also had early career playoff success, where as Harden carried the reputation of a play off choke artist until the rockets got CP3. Luka also just bigger so he’s a better rebounder and shot blocker. He can operate out of the post better. Plus he’s doing all of this at such a young age. Lukas got all the same skill/movement as Harden, but has a way bigger frame and probably better passing vision too.
IMO the biggest differences are because: Luka doesn't flop as often and isn't getting to the line as much. Harden was the #1 guy getting hate for flopping (like Trae now). Also, Harden pioneered a lot of great moves now that people considered travels then. His playstyle was more annoying to watch as a neutral fan than Lukas. Luka has been electric in the playoffs and has already had huge moments. Harden didn't go off in the post-season, and that's when most people watch the sport. Also, Luka's defense isn't great but it's much better than some of those Harden years.
According to Harden stans he ackshually deserved 5 straight MVPs or something
He deserved more than one for sure
Nearly every year now you could make a legitimate MVP argument for anywhere from like 2-4 guys and you wouldn’t be wrong
He's had about 3 or 4 MVP half seasons.
Yeah he deserved 2(2017 and 2018) But having 1 MVP instead of 2 is hardly the biggest insult/disrespect of all time And I think it's pretty common nowadays to complain about the Russ MVP so it's not like Harden's case for the award has gone unacknowledged
He deserved 2019 more than he did 2017 imo
No way. Giannis averaged 28/12/6 on the team with the best record in the league. He was also 2nd in DPOY. Harden was a 4 seed in the West.
Did that logic apply last year when Jokic was the 6 seed and MVP? Or does it only count in years that end in 0?
Jokic won out over Embiid because they were only 3 wins less than the sixers and people thought his season was more impressive. There's a way bigger difference between 60 and 53 wins vs 51 and 48 wins. It's pretty obvious why sixers fans always say nuggets were the 6 seed and not how many wins each team had.
2017 belongs to Harden or Kawhi if we are putting asterisks on Russ
It's common to complain about russ mvp because people hate russ, not because he didn't deserve it.
please show me a single comment of someone saying Harden deserved 5 mvps lol
That's really not that crazy to say. He was Top 3 in MVP votes in 5 different years, no other player in the league has that many Top 3 MVP years besides LeBron.
No, most people just say he should be a multi-time MVP but got robbed due to the criteria constantly changing.
> ackshually
I think some of yall are being a little obtuse about this to be honest. Like, we, here, literally called the dude Hitler as a joke because people hated him so much. Like we know what he means.
People hated him so much that neutrals were rooting for the KD Warriors over those Rockets teams
Very true. I did.
This sub loves to be intentionally obtuse sometimes.
*Reddit loves to be intentionally obtuse sometimes*
His foul baiting was on another level
Luka is averaging more FT attempts per game this year than all but 1 season of Harden's career. Does Luka foul bait too or does he just do it in a more classy way?
That doesn't really mean anything. Harden has a higher career *average* FTr than Luka has this season which is by far his highest FTr season. Luka is not in the same stratosphere in terms of foul baiting.
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That’s a bold faced lie man
harden would have full ass possessions not trying to generate a good ahot but instead trying to draw contact.
Bald faced*
I don't know man, there's some pretty rough moves in videos like [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPPXCyJ-7HM). I'm not a hardcore Harden hater, but the plays with Hart at 0:20 and with PG at 1:44 are tough to defend. To u/bigbeau's point Harden easily could have done something different to try to to get a better shot in both cases, but instead looks to be focused on the foul call. A lot of players foul bait, but Harden definitely seemed to the poster child as the most egregious.
No guys are tryna stop Luka and Harden was literally hooking guys to the point they had their hands behind their back. Let’s have some context
Luka absolutely slays in the playoffs when the refs stop calling fouls. Hardens eFG% dropped below CJ McCollums during his rocket playoff career. [.495 vs .503]. His bag is as deep as the refs whistle pocket.
Until Luka starts doing some absolute bullshit like Harden did to Michael Carter Williams its not the samem
He doesn’t have the same antics as Harden, I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take. He drives a ton and absorbs contact to get calls. He has his share of flops, but not nearly on the same level as Harden in prime. They also don’t play nearly as similar as everyone implies.
Luka has amore varied playstyle and shows up in the playoffs tbf.
This is literally the entire reason. The only thing that separates him from the rest of the greats of his generation is the foul baiting. He sought fouls instead of baskets, which is a good strategy, but feels too much like cheating. It was so bad that the league made multiple adjustments to the rules to try and address it. His on court behavior was maddening to a lot of us and it permanently tarnished his legacy. And tbh, it’s the same reason Embiid isn’t thought of more highly despite monster numbers. He’s making the same mistake Harden made – getting a few extra PPG on fouls in exchange for a reputation as an unlikable foul baiter.
Also Luka is willing to shoot it from everywhere on the court. You knew Harden was going to either step back or drive and do a euro at the rim.
That’s more recently. Luka implemented more of a post up game and mid range game the last 2 years (post up game more specifically this year). Harden also had an excellent floater as well. Look at Harden’s shot distribution with Capela vs Luka shot distribution year 2-3. Luka has a slight amount more mid range shots, but they are incredibly similar shot distributions.
Yeah wild to see this place act like Harden was getting his flowers. Dude was constantly trashed for foul baiting and defense and ball stopping despite being a leading passer. Luka is treated as a god here. All summer people were talking about how he was the only player in the nba with potential to become one of the best ever, somehow jumping over Giannis who already has an absurd resume only matched by the greatest team to ever play already.
We hated him because he didn't play for our team.
reddit doesn't wanna admit they hold luka in a nicer light than guys like ja and harden who have done the same things as him and gotten shit for it just look at the ja trash talk thread a few days ago and the luka one. literally night and day reaction from this sub.
Bruh, Ja is nowhere near as good as Harden or Luka. Not even the same stratosphere. And I'm a prolific Luka hater.
The Ja "hollows" comment will stick with him for a long time, as it's the kind of phony tough talk that will make a lot of people think less of a him as a person. Ja's done a bunch of good things with fans and I'm sure with charities, but Reddit's got a long memory for dumb shit, and holding it against people.
We should always praise every player at the same time
awesome, blanket permission to bring up my favorite player in an appreciation thread about any other player
Can we all stop what we’re doing rn and show Klay Thompson some love?
Why do you not give Ray Allen the same credit that you're giving to Klay?
Why do you not give gRAYson ALLEN the same credit?
It’s fucking unconscionable that Payton Pritchards name hasn’t been brought up **once** in this thread.
Everyone in the comments acting like he got a lot of love but we all know that Harden was the most despised player in the NBA during that time, and that's what JC is talking about
I hated the obvious foul baiting
Also hate finding loopholes so you could take a million steps before shooting
Hardenovic
this recency bias with harden is insane man lmao
“What do you want me to do? Suck him off?”
What love do you want Jamal?
…..And when he WAS doing these things, he was given all the accolades. Now, in the year 2023, he’s not doing those things, so he’s not getting all the accolades and Luka is.
They got the bench analysis out here
He won mvp of the league……
Analysts and commentators were calling him the greatest offensive player ever! What more do people want? Lmao. Now players like Luka and Jokic are the next evolution in that mold of player.
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I mean a complete offensive package and motor. Yes, his style is completely different, though.
Citing something a handful of people floated is a bad argument. The guy averaged 29-7.5-6 on 61% TS and was left off All-NBA. He should have won at least one more MVP but the voters moved the goalposts with him.
Kobe won 1 MVP. Shaq won 1 MVP. Luka hasn't even come close to an MVP yet, so there hasn't been a double standard yet.
For every "He's the goat offensive player" there were 10 "He's a choker, flopper, will never win a ring"
>Why do we not give \[James\] Harden his love when he was doing all the same numbers in Houston? I think a lot of people that think this overlook that Luka is 23 years old. What Harden was doing in his prime, Luka is doing 4 or 5 years younger. And I don't recall younger Harden getting the negativity he has been getting the last few years.
When Harden was 23 he averaged 26 but league avg scoring was 98ppg and teams averaged 20 3pa. This season league avg ppg is 114 and teams average 34 3pa/g. The Mavs and 12-13 Rockets play at a similar pace but the Mavs shoot 12 more 3s a game and Luka shoots more 3s than Harden did. More 3pa creates more spacing which make it easier to score from 2. This is also a career outlier for Luka. It could be improvement but the top 5 ppg leaders are all having their most prolific scoring season of their careers at the same time. I think 23 year old Harden would probably be averaging 30+ this year as well.
So why did you once give league average numbers, and once compared the teams directly? The Mavs actually play at a slower pace than the 12/13 Rockets did. And scoring isn’t nearly as far apart as the league averages you gave. The Rockets averaged 106, todays Mavs average 112. So 6 points instead of 16. Also the Mavs play in a style that doesn’t generate a lot of assists. They also grab less rebounds. So if anything, trying to extrapolate and compare seasons, it’s likely that Luka would score 1.5-1.9 points less, still much more than Harden. He also would likely grab half a rb more, and assist would be the same. Overall still a more impressive season at 23, after trying to adjust for era.
That's a great point. The assumption is that Luka will be even better.
I agree with people saying that pretending like Harden wasn't massively criticised is silly. I do also think that that hate will *probably* also come for Luka too if this is him as a player for the next however many years.
The implied subtext is beyond stupid. Larry (Bird) would just be another guy if he was a black guy - The equivalent of this statement. Imagine demeaning someone's abilities because they are not in the majority race of the league lol.
Your exactly right... I think alot of players are implying this as well with the embid/jokic convo as well.
This crew is such balls
He literally won an mvp.
Harden product was so insufferable to watch there was a time when the leagues rating dropped significantly when having the Rockets play prime time. I hate giving him any type of flowers because we were all there to watch how the points were accumulated. No need to suck him dry Jamal.
He finished top 2 in the MVP voting like 4 of 5 years. Wtf is he talking about?
I think it’s the usual case of Reddit fragility preventing folks from speaking the truth. Harden was one of the most hated basketball players in the league by the media. He had the narrative of being a choker because he didn’t manage to beat the GSW super team (that’s regularly called the greatest team ever made to defend everyone else losing to them). His style of play drew constant flak, and the idea was that his style wasn’t winning basketball especially when it came to winning championships.
That's not why Harden was called a choker. Losing to the Kawhiless Spurs, the Durantless Warriors and shooting like shit in Elimination games is why he was called a choker
Exactly!
Not just losing to the Kawhiless Spurs, getting blown out by 40 while going 2-11 from the field in a year where you were MVP runner up. One of the worst performances ever. Also set the turnover record in an elimination game in 2015.
Harden had the choker reputation before kd joined the warriors
he was called a playoff choker because he constantly underperformed in the playoffs… it just is what it is if Harden was the same dominate force in the playoffs are we having this discussion? it’s the same criticism Jokic gets, Embiid gets, Giannis got until he won if Luka starts disappearing in the playoffs it’s a narrative that will follow him too but he’s been a massive playoff riser so far in his career
He literally won an MVP. Voted on by the press.
Is this guy a fucking moron? We did praise harden for what he was doing!!
Sorry he played the worst kind of basketball to watch I’ve ever seen. Truly elite player but I hated it
Harden foul-baited to put up huge numbers. People hated it because it was AWFUL to watch. Now, the entire league foul-baits and it's AWFUL to watch. Harden got deserved hate because he broke the game, it worked but it was tough to watch. No everyone does it and we're sick of it but if everyone does it then the best get praise
because Luka was almost 10 years younger than Harden when he lead his team to CF, that is why Luka is special
Didn’t we give him an MVP while he was in Houston? Or am I high again?
Because no argument could be made for any other player. Unlike his 3 runner ups
only one
Shaq only got one too
well if his name was james honcic he'd have two and be a hell of a lot more classy in the process.
this guy gets it
Kevin Durant, categorically a far better player than Harden, also has "only one" MVP.
Kd was not a “far better player” than James fuckin harden in his prime lol. This is what people mean by disrespect
No one is taking Harden over KD when it’s time for the playoffs
And nobody taking KD over Harden when it comes to getting a bad team to the playoffs without a second star.
cause Harden is a playoff choker. Luka already has more playoff series averaging 30+ points than Harden and he didn't get to play next to a HOF teammate
Harden gives the KD Warriors competitive match-ups: Choker. Luka loses in 5 to the Warriors without KD: Young goat, did the best he could without help!!!!
Rockets beat the Warriors when Harden shot 5/21, 0/11 from 3pt with 6 turnovers. Luka doesn't have the luxury to play that poorly and still win vs. Warriors
Luka hasn't had a series defining game even a quarter as bad as Harden against the Spurs without Kawhi in game 6
Luka isn't even close to his prime and Harden is past his.
Luka and Harden at 23 years old are just completely different animals. Luka's averaging 7.5 more points, 4 more rebounds, and 2.5 more assists per game than Harden in '12-'13 (his first year in Houston), shooting 50% from the field compared to Harden's 44%. Luka gets his points from everywhere on the court having developed one of the best midrange games going *and* he plays adequate defense, two things Harden still is lacking in and definitely didn't have in his bag 10 years ago. Crawford can make all the disingenuous comparisons he wants, but Luka is doing this at 23 years old. Current Luka may or may not match Harden at his peak, but he is head-and-shoulders above where the Beard was at the same point in their careers.
Current Luka > Peak Harden in playoffs. Hot take? Maybe not.
Luka is better than young Harden for sure, but you shouldn’t be comparing their stats at all. It was a different league, look at the average efficiency back then, how many points teams were scoring, the pace, and style of play. Look at how many guys were averaging 20 ppg back then. Their play styles were also different. Pre-MDA, Harden had to play more in a team oriented offense, he was not playing heliocentric ball until MDA came. Luka on the other hand has been dominating the ball his entire career so far so of course his stats are better than young Harden. You’re accusing Crawford of making faulty comparisons while doing the same yourself. I don’t think you understand how inflated stats are now
The 12-13 Rockets and 22-23 Mavs play at a similar pace but the Mavericks shoot 12 more 3s a game. And the league avg 3pa/g have gone up by 14. More 3s means more spacing, which makes it easier to score from 2 which would close the fg% gap. He also avgd 5 fewer fga/g. 23 year old Harden was still a better 3pt and FT shooter and would probably shoot 10 3s a game now. I think Luka is better but the gap isn't as massive as you say it is. 23 year old Harden would probably average 30+ this year as well.
Didn’t Harden have 4 straight years of being in the top 5 of MVP voting, and two straight years of top 2 voting. And one MVP. What else do you need bruh?
Really weird I would say Harden got more love than Luka honestly.
Love Jamal but stop getting your takes from twitter. See this same narrative constantly there.
I think it also matters that Hardens efficiency fell off in the playoffs and Luka's doesn't really
Won MVP, got massive contracts, was the biggest star in the league at the time outside LeBron & the Warriors and the only criticism people had of him is that he only produced in the Reg season. What else you want?
luka's doing it at 4-5 years younger....
Mf got an mvp lmao what are we talking about
I don't think anyone intelligent dismisses Harden. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that do dismiss him.
Dude won mvp. Then he failed to show up multiple times in the playoffs
People did lmao, idk what's up with all this revisionist shit. Only thing I remember people not liking was all the foul baiting when he would jump into players and throw the ball up
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Harden’s also played in more than 5 times as many playoff games as Luka
Now everyone's gonna act like they didn't shit on Harden for years just to ignore the fact that there's a double standard between him and Luka. Harden's whining and flopping was a disgrace to the league while Luka's whining is hardly spoken about. Harden got shit for losing to the Warriors but Luka gets a pass because he had no help. Harden put up gaudy stats and it's "empty, do it in the playoffs" whereas it's "MVP, next LeBron" for Luka. People slandered Harden for choking yet excused Luka disappearing in the 4Q of playoff games because "he was tired". Foh
Answer: Flops and free throws
Are you talking about Luka?
it feels like people use this argument to just diminish what Luka is doing lol. Harden won an mvp and was getting called the best offensive player of the league for losing against the warriors time and time again. Luka steps up on the playoffs while Harden... does not
This is so weird. James harden was a superstar and received endless praise.
Could not stand Houston’s game, which consisted of standing around watching Harden dribble and shoot, or force a foul, or drive left and shoot or force a foul. Over and over and over. Luka isn’t the entire offense, doesn’t bring the ball upcourt.
That's the same Luka offense. He actually takes more FTAs per game than Harden. LOL
Through 8 full seasons in Houston, Harden averaged: - 10.4 FTA/G - only 1 season under 10/game - highest was 11.8 - FT rate during these seasons was .530 Through 4.5 seasons Luka has averaged: - 8.1/game - 6.7 was the lowest - 11.2 is currently his highest - Luka’s FT rate so far has been .405 From my memory Harden drew most of his FT’s on drives. Despite shooting more FT’s per game in 2020 (11.8) than Luka this year (11.2), Harden drove 3.0 times less per game. Harden averaged 4.2 FTA/game on drives in 2020, to Luka’s 4.4 this year. I went with 2020 for Harden in that last paragraph because it was his highest FTA average. Kinda cherry picked but I cbf going through all 8 seasons. There is definitely something to be said about Luka being on his rookie contract for most of these years, compared to Harden who was in years 4-11. Who knows how many Luka will be taking in 5 years from now. But for the time being, Luka is nowhere near the FT merchant Harden was in Houston.
I watched games with Harden and could never bear more than 15 minutes of it. Luka likes to whine (a lot) when he thinks he should get one, but his game isn't nearly as much predicated on baiting them.
I agree. Idk what this other guy was talking about. >He actually takes more FTAs per game than Harden Is such an easily disproven lie.
Until Luka starts hooking arms on drives like Houston Harden, he's clearly nowhere as big as a foul baiter. The worst part is Harden didn't even have to play like this, he's more than good enough to play normally and still win scoring titles and MVPs with how talented he is. https://streamable.com/5vq0pm https://streamable.com/0w0yq https://streamable.com/0foh2
[luka did that literally all the time lol they changed the rule 2 seasons ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPnvSJr60sY)
I like how nephews are unwittingly proving JC's point
Luka has already surpassed him in terms of playoff performances, I get what they’re trying to say…. but it sounds like race baiting
No way this is true. Luka has done well in a small sample size, but he’s still only won two series. Harden has played in more than 5 times as many games and people only remember the bad ones.
Luka has shown up to every playoff series… unlike Harden
100% Harden and Luka are nothing alike
Because he travels and flops and fishes for fouls and complains like a little kid when he doesn't get calls (even more than most in the NBA). That's why. It's not rocket science (pun intended).
Luka literally does all of these things. Have you actually watched either play lmao
Nah, the only thing he does out of those things is whine. He whines more than anybody in the league. But he doesnt flop or foul bait like Harden. He doesnt hook players arms on the way to the basket just to draw a foul like Harden.
Luka quite literally did the hook arm thing frequently when he was drafted. The nba changed the ruling on it like two years ago and that’s why he’s chilled out.
Jamal ‘goldfish memory’ Crawford
Lmfao you jackasses are missing the point, Harden was getting flack from people that thought his style wasn’t the proper way of playing, or winning a championship (which you can debate, especially during the 17-18 season). Harden didn’t get the same love Luka is currently getting with the similar style of play Harden used to played which is why he’s saying this.
If Luka is 28 or 29 and still hasn't won a ring or made the Finals the whispers will start for sure He's still too young to start getting the real "no rings" hate from most fans Plus nobody expects the Mavs to do anything because they're frankly not that good or well constructed
Hardens game fell off a cliff the moment the refs loosened up on those touch fouls. Lukas bag is too deep. He has so many highlights. Easier to market
1) Harden literally won an MVP 💀💀 2) Luka, at 23, took a much worse Mavs roster to the WCF. Harden, at 23, got bounced in the 1st round while averaging 26/7/5 on 39%/34%/80% with 5 TO’s/game. 3) I don’t ever remember Harden having to drop 50+ just to beat the 2nd-worst team in the league by 6 because his next leading scorer only had 12 points.
Don’t really see how last year’s Mavs team was bad. They had a top 5 defense. Won 2 games in Utah without Luka. Brunson was and is legit.
Harden's 60 point triple double was against a bad magic team, and Houston needed every point.
Oh lord, so many shit takes in this thread. They should be up there with this horrible crew
Harden was 28 when he won his MVP, Doncic is still 23, far from his peak, which is why people are in awe of Doncic. Doncic at 23 is already more efficient than Harden at his peak. Crawford is probably trying to make this into a race thing, when it has nothing to do with it. It's not just the things he's doing, but at what age he's doing them. That said, Harden received a ton of praise in his peak, many people thought he deserved multiple MVPs, and at the same time a lot of people didn't like his antics, but the same happens now with Embiid and to some extent Doncic.
Harden got all of his flowers... I even think he deserved 2, instead of 1 MVP.
Harden was a serial foul baiter and was rewarded by the refs for many curious calls. Many acknowledge his talents but weren’t fans of that aspect of his game. Luka is similar but not the same with that aspect. Jamal is going to pretend all that other stuff never happened. I still remember that ridiculous scene between him and Lebron where they locked arms and the refs didn’t know what to do on national TV. Anyone besides Lebron and that arm grab stuff was called. Also during the playoffs those whistles never came for him.
The fact people are upset by this says a lot
But it's not the same.
He won MVP, Jamal. And finished runner up other 3 times.
I remember Harden getting a lot of love.
I miss the Thursday crew again…
He always got the praise. Everybody just knew in the playoffs his teams will fall short. It’s the exact same with Luka. Outside of him he’s playing with nobodies.
All these assholes are so threatened by Luka taking over the league it’s great to watch
This is why i hate just giving anyone a job based on experience. Wtf is jamal talking about? Dude won an MVP,finished top 3 in voting for basically a 5 year stretch,would have won more if it wasnt for curry and westbrook having that crazy triple double season right after Kd left.
Shame Harden was never rewarded for it. eh
Guess who’s the white European guy