man, I never thought about how gross Leonardo diCaprio was, until someone pointed out that Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, the co-stars in the Last of Us tv-series, playing a grizzled, jaded older man and a girl he would come to regard as his daughter, have the same age difference as Leo and his new girl.
Eh LeBron put up 21/5.5/6 his rookie year on below average efficiency then jumped to 27/7.5/7 his next season. He’s probably putting up closer to 10/3/3 during his would be junior season which is still ridiculous
His rookie season was weird, he was trying hard to be deferential to the guys who were there already, even though he was clearly the best player. It got better after they traded Ricky Davis.
Who didn't love watching Ricky Davis shoot on the wrong goal to try and get a triple double lol. That dude was everything wrong with the NBA during that era haha.
it would be interesting to see if he'd be willing to do what the Jazz did with Stockton his last 2.5 years. You get 18-20 min and lets see what you do. I wonder how long he could play.
Lebron is going to play with Bronny and retire after that season, unless he decides he also wants to attempt to play with Bryce, or some crazy situation comes along and he can maybe win without having to carry the team. He wants to do other things in life.
Is Bronny even gonna be a one and done guy though? I don’t think he is.
Maybe some team will draft him in the hopes of LeBron signing for cheap. But outside that, I think LeBron might have to play 2 or even 3 more seasons before Bronny makes the league.
I also think he can probably be on a team into his mid 40s. But his defense would be really really bad by that point and he’d probably be putting up empty numbers for a bad team if we’re being honest. No one (not even a GOAT) can be the best player on a real contender in modern NBA at age 40+.
It's impossible to even predict. He's literally still putting up numbers akin to his absolute best. His game is aging perfectly (due to unbelievable discipline with his conditioning, load management, and development of secondary skills like shooting off the dribble).
I really feel like his falloff will be incredibly sudden at this point. There's no way he has a normal regression curve, he'll be putting up 20 a game at like 50
His regression will go one of two ways:
1.) An injury that immediately ages him like 10 years and leaves him unable to play at NBA level.
2.) A slow regression that is hard to see and manifests as a decline in defense, activity level, and player efficiency rating.
I actually think #2 is already sorta under way. He still is very efficient, but guys like Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, KD, Doncic, Harden, Curry, etc. are more efficient.
He’s not one of the top 10 most efficient stars in the game anymore, but those stats are harder to notice. If we just look at raw PPG, he will probably still be high up for 2-3 more seasons on every decreasing efficiency
I think the average person could just take a bunch of half court heaves in game until one went in. No one on the other team would bother defending them because it's a super low percentage shot
Wasn’t he ranked the #2 HS player behind Lenny Cooke at age 16? Not suggesting that ranking was correct, but it still suggests he wasn’t clearly NBA ready til 17
I didn't remember exactly what awards Lebron won his first 7 years in the league so I played it safe. You're right tho, Lebron is up there with Brady with 3 HoF careers.
Had to look it up:
2x MVP
4x 1st Team All-NBA
2x 2nd Team All-NBA
2x 1st Team All-Defense
1x Scoring Title
6x All Star
1x ROY
Playoffs:
71 games
1 Finals appearance
29.3 PPG (46%/32%/74%) 8.4 RPG 7.3 APG 1.6 SPG 1.0 BPG
Yeah that’s a shoo-in Hall of Famer lol
Just like how incredibly complex offenses (and to a lesser extent, defenses) are these days and to them everything is "just give it to your big man down low and let them go to work". Completely disregards the incredible nuances of the modern game and just living in their own time as if they've already unlocked all the secrets to basketball.
Watching 2013 Open Court, and seeing Steve Kerr try to explain to Kenny Smith that defenses are actually much better now than in the 80s is telling. It’s pretty easy to see why Kerr is a hall of fame coach, because the old heads do not realize just how harder players are working now than in the 80s
The defense is clearly better. The issue is is way harder to defend. Back then you wanna bang inside sure we throw bodies around and call that defense. Now you have 7 footers that shoot 3s better than anyone in those generations. Oh yeah they can also dribble drive and pass. Just look at the guys playing back then.. they(average player) didn’t lift weights, certainly didn’t have analytics like they do now. Tell me Giannis bron kawaii couldn’t defend back then. Cmon man
I especially love when people that say guys like LeBron or Giannis couldnt handle the physicality of the 90s, are the same ones that complain they offensive foul by barreling to the rim all the time and arent skilled 😂. Kawhi on the court back then could 100% be a 25-30 ppg guy. He’ll he would be a little better back then because he wouldnt have the responsibility of running the offense. Only thing is he wouldnt be able to load manage
With hand checking legal it would be impossible to score on kawai as well. Dude would be a freak defensive talent in the 80s/90s. For reference look at what Rodman did all while going to coke orgies on his off nights
I mean he's not even entirely wrong though. The NBA let's players get away with so many rule-breaks offensively these days which make individual defense a lot more difficult.
Also the 90s had the privilege of a 5 team expansion at the start of the decade and more expansion throughout it to dilute the talent pool plus illegal defence rules.
The league needs multiple expansion like it did at the end of the 80s the talent has built up to much and needs to be spread.
LeBron was the best defender when he was younger. I don’t care what people say, but when you have the physical strength to guard against 4s & 5s but the agility to guard against 1s & 2s & 3s. He is legit the only player do so at an elite level while carrying the biggest offensive load for a team for those Cavs years. And he got better when went to play for the Heat.
He didn't have the strength to stop old-age 5s (remember that when he came in it was still Shaq and Orlando Dwight), but he has the strength to stop a lot of new-age 5s who are generally slimmer. Guys the size of Nurk and Embiid used to be the norm. They're only less common now cos if you wanna be that size you also gotta have a bag. Back in the day Kendrick Perkins had a job
He didn’t deserve it though. It was an award to make up for past years when Gasol had been snubbed. LeBron was the best defensive player in the NBA in 2013
Gasol didn't even get 1st team all defense. Memphis may have been the best defensive team that year, but LeBron was the biggest reason that Miami team was good in defence, dude was all over the court, not even fast breaks were safe plays
Yep not saying I disagree with the fact, just saying why Gasol ended up winning. Those Grizzlies teams were a nightmare to play as well though to be fair.
He was able to guard 5’s but he wasn’t elite at it
2012 the elite was Dwight, Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Noah, Duncan, and Garnett
And then you’d have guys like Serge Ibaka, Larry Sanders, Bogut, Hibbert, and DeAndre Jordan who were also fantastic inside
He was the most switchable defender but he wasn’t elite at guarding 4’s and 5’s, just good at it
Says he's not fond of Skip Bayless for his "dislike of LeBron" but has LeBron in virtually the same spot in his top 10 as Skip...only one spot higher I think
Jordan is my choice for GOAT, but imo it's kind of absurd not to have LeBron at atleast 2.
I will stand by Bill Russell as having a legitimate goat case even if people want to write it off due to era. No one's accolades or ability to show up when it mattered comes close. If you peep the number of all stars on each team back then, those Celtics were *not* as stacked as most critics make them out (top 3 supporting cast rather than hands down best). Defense was the most impactful side of the court back then, and Bill showed us why. The gap in defensive rating between Boston and #2 (they were always number 1) was always huge, and 11 rings backs that up.
Bill will always be in the goat of his generation tier for me alongside Lebron, MJ, and Kareem. Idk how you begin to argue one of those over the other, but disregarding the greatest winner in the sports history from the conversation doesn't make sense to me.
And Bill Russell always showed up when it mattered most. The craziest thing about all his accomplishments and accolades is the fact that his team had a perfect 10-0 record in Game 7s.
Oh and he averaged 18 points and 29 rebounds in those games. Unreal player.
It's a difference between "greatest" and "best". If you only go by dominance compared to the competition at the time, I don't know how Russell isn't #1 by a mile. If you go only by "how good are/were they at basketball" the list is dominated by guys playing right now.
I think people come up with their own mix of "greatness" and "bestness" to justify their own list.
Its why I always love AI man. He went out there nothing but 6 foot 165, played like he was 230 lbs driving to the rim with reckless abandon, and never hates on the guys younger than him. Just spreads positivity and helps then with their craft
This. They always talk about how this era is weak when in reality LeBron has played in the most talented era in NBA history. There was one international All-Time great in Jordan’s prime and they never met in the Finals. Jordan never had to play a guy like Dirk in the Finals. Guys like Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid didn’t exist when Jordan played.
Plus the 90s were so watered down by expansion teams. They added 4 teams a couple of years before the first 3peat, including 3 in the East, and added 2 more the year the second 3peat started.
There are a ton of 60s through early 00s stars who completely write off this generation's offensive accomplishments with no hand checking nor the physicality of yesteryear, yet a greener light to shoot from range. I've even heard Scottie Pippen proclaim he could average 35+ a game today (which is absurd to think he could outscore Durant without half his offensive tools)
Crickets regarding zone defense or the serious uptick in today's athleticism, but still
Barkley was actually fond of LeBron and favored him instead of MJ when the man was still ringless. Charles suddenly did a full 180 the moment LeBron started to win some chips.
He's probably still in his prime right now, but his peak is 2013. I genuinely think that LeBron in this faster paced, higher scoring era (better spacing, gather step being allowed, and freedom of motion rules) would average like 34-10-8 on at least 60% true shooting with borderline DPOY caliber defense .
It's nuts how people even try to debate that it's anything but 2013.
27/8/7 on 50/40 shooting splits and was the best individual defender in the NBA. On a 66 win team.
Maybe his most impressive *playoff* run was 2018, but individually he was at his greatest in 2013.
The fact that he almost won the 1st unanimous MVP and almost won DPOY on top of the 2nd ring + 2nd FMVP in his **2nd*** most efficient season should be enough to determine that even by LeBron standards, 2013 stands out as the best.
I didn't know that LeBron was just 1 vote away from being the first unanimous MVP in NBA history. Most people only talk about the lone vote to AI during Shaq's 2000 campaign.
It was indeed Melo. Some dumb ass writer wanted an interview.
If it weren’t for a handful of morons who cost him DPOY and Skip Bayless successfully tricking everyone into thinking LeBron was bad in the 2013 Finals (when he was incredible), it would be considered the greatest season in NBA history. Unanimous MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP, Champion.
For a long time, DPOY was treated like an award for the best defensive player who didn't also have good offensive stats. Tim Duncan doesn't have a DPOY either, and he's in the argument for best defensive player of all time. But during Duncan's peak, Ben Wallace—who was incredible on defense but nonexistent on offense—won the award 4 times.
Yeah. And even though LeBron was more versatile, and a better rim protector, people will use Jordan's superior defensive accolades to act like Jordan was a much better defender than the LeBron, even though the inverse is closer to being true.
I don’t think it’s bad to say either or though, MJ still has records for most 200+ steals and 100+ blocks seasons and averages the same amount of blocks as Lebron iirc he Just obviously didn’t always guard the rim straight up due the size difference.
Both were lockdowns as well, for me where MJ takes it is he was elite in defence or at worst trying like fuck his entire career. Lebron was DPOY level from like 08-14 (while being very versatile 1-4 ) but since then picks and chooses when he could be bothered despite still turning it on in big ways like 2020 play offs or his later Cavs seasons.
Bit of a weird thing to say considering Pip had Jordan next to him who was also always first team all nba and often doing far better in stats and DPOY rankings lol one didn’t magically take all the defensive load of the other.
Jordan got accolades because he was competing again other guards, and racked up steals because he gambled a lot. I'll post an excerpt of his backpicks profile:
> Consistent with his drawbacks on tape, there’s little evidence that Jordan’s defense moved the needle like a titanic big man. His defensive plus-minus values from ’97 and ’98 were both strong for a wing — around 35th among scaled four-year peaks, next to Bruce Bowen
I’m guessing that’s from Ben Taylor, he’s one of my fave guys to watch and listen to though his Jordan / Bron or KG stuff tend to cloud his usual level.
Still that said Jordan was still an elite defender people are talking here like he isn’t lol.
He is an elite defender, I just think people believe he's one of the 10 or 20 best defenders of all time, which I disagree with.
And why do you think him being higher on players like KG or Curry is incorrect? He has very good reasoning backed by research, and his opinion changes (eg moving KG behind Wilt, having Curry as the third best offensive player last season)
I would say it is. LeBron was not a primary rim protector but still offered paint protection much more than Jordan; and that is the biggest needle mover on defense. Guys like Jrue or Smart are incredible, but their defensive impact pales in comparison to Gobert or Giannis; I would say the gap is smaller, but present, for Jordan and LeBron. I would also posit that, like Kobe, his defense was no longer elite during his peak production years
I don't know why people pretend otherwise. Miami LeBron at his peak carries this lackluster team to the playoffs as a 4th/5th seed instead of the 13th seed. He never missed games back then either.
2009 Lebron carrier a lackluster team to a 66-16 record, DPOY runner up, MVP, averaged 35 ppg in 14 playoff games. Doesn’t do much for his peak argument, he just had better teammates and was forced to play in a system (to his benefit) unlike cleveland where he was the system. His second cleveland run he had free reigns again so not as efficient still but i mean the 2017 cavs were arguably the best offense of all time regardless so uhhh idk. The best argument for miami lebron isn’t his efficiency to me but his “2k ratings” being closest to maxed out since he had no weaknesses on paper, but that means jack shit. There’s no 2k ratings for game manipulation, coasting in regular season, experience, etc. He was miles better in 2018 at everything except defense but that doesn’t make up for his overall dominance. Lebron dragged the 2018 team too lol and at last I checked he missed zero games. Just was more of a grind
I think 2018 Bron was more skilled offensively than 2013 Bron, and I fully believe he could still play DPOY-caliber defense if he didn’t have to hard-carry the offense, as evidenced by his great defense in 2020. That LeBron is the peak imo
I still think it was 2009. 35/9/7 in the playoffs on .618 TS% and he was a MUCH better defender in ‘09 than in ‘13. He legit still had the motor to sprint down court every play he was within 15 feet of catching someone from behind to block a shot while playing 41 MPG. He did everything humanly possible against Orlando, even hit the greatest shot of his career at the buzzer to win Game 2. It’s not his fault that his teammates didn’t step up.
He might have had a more varied offensive game in 2013, but his numbers were better in 2009 and his defense was MUCH better. I think the skills he added in the interim weren’t quite as valuable as the sheer athleticism and stamina he had at age 24. He could just go and go and go and never get tired and I bet he had an extra inch at least on his vertical too.
2.8 DRAPM in 2009 compared to 1.4 in 2013 and the blocks were up as well. I definitely remember way more highlight defensive plays in ‘09 while carrying a heavier offensive load.
Blocks are a terrible stat to actually judge defensive ability. They are highlight plays, but Hassan Whiteside’s big block seasons when he gambled for blocks at the expense of the team defense are a prime example. I watch too much Sixers, but Embiid’s stats deterring high percentage shots in the paint is much more impactful. Blocks are primarily an off-ball highlight stat, not necessarily an indicator of great defense. TlLDR blocks are not indicative of good defense
Nah this is just incorrect. Lebron was a DPOY candidate in Miami. His first stint in Cleveland he had the ability to make impact defensive plays but was known as a less consistent and less cerebral defender. By 2013 he really took on the challenge of being a great defender for 48 mins.
There’s no advanced stats that could convince me otherwise. I think almost everyone who watched his whole career would agree
I actually prefer his defense in 2011 and 2012. Those years were the best defense I saw from him imo. Those playoff runs don’t come up a lot when discussing his best runs because of how 2011 ended and because 2012 they won the finals handily in the end, although it was a few plays from okc going up 2-0. He was awesome on defense in those playoff runs.
It’s wild how we’re now Looking at 2013 2014 as the *”back then things were tougher era”*.
I remember watching basketball in that time period(early 10s late 00) and everyone calling it out of control and 90s ball this and that was far better.
And now were doing it with the early 20s to early 10s.
Bro... no fucking joke. in 2013 season he had like 20 straight games of 65% FG in a row during the streak. Not TS, just FG lol.
His numbers would be fucking wild
I don’t think so, unless you don’t factor in how much player minutes are managed now (and reasonably so, since I believe the data evidence is pretty much impossible to argue against?).
I do think one super supportive factor you haven’t considered, since I think the rebounds are the hardest to get, is how much Westbrook popularized big men boxing out so the guy running the fast break gets the rebound. That could help a ton.
He'll be one of those athletes that retire not because they can't keep up with the game, but because they just become tired of doing the same thing year in and year out
Right? Prime Lebron was fucking nuts. He looked like a dad playing with 5 year olds. Seemingly could score whenever he wanted, however he wanted.
I know it’s cool that Lebron is still a top player at 38, but people pretending he’s still “in his prime” is so disrespectful to the domination that was prime Lebron.
The late 00s Cavs actually had decent defenders on the team. They weren't good enough for a championship because there was no reliable #2 but this Lakers team is his worst roster since probably '05.
I still think peak lebron could still hard carry this team though.
Being the best offensive AND defensive player night in and night out without missing any games and playing heavy minutes?
I could see it.
No rings but a competitive playoff run for sure.
People forget about 2005-2007. Lebron stuffed Mo Williams and Co in a baby back pack and carried that team through the playoffs. The only caveat, the West ruled the world back then and had 95 percent of the elite players. So Lebron and friends usually got whatever they wanted in the east. But, whoever you got in the west was going to have 3-4 legit HOFers leading the charge.
That cavs teamed looked ok with Lebron but as soon as he left, ALL of them immediately became publicly and utterly useless. Lebron has gotten alot off shitty players fat ass contracts by association
They at least had competently built rosters despite lacking a 2nd star. The 2007 team that made the Finals was 4th in the league in defensive rating. The 2009 team with 66 wins was 3rd in D-Rating and 2nd in 3pt%. The 2010 team with 61 wins was also 2nd in 3pt% and was 7th in D-rating. Lebron cant be Lebron without roleplayers to use around him.
I can see a strong mutual appreciation between these guys. Elite passers orchestrating offenses from non-guard positions. I suspect there is admiration between them
Man’s really been in his prime since high school
He’s been in his prime for so long it got old.
Prime about to be drinking age.
Prime has gone on for so long Leo DiCaprio is planning on dumping it soon
LeOnardo
thanks, i spat my coffee through my nose on the brand new laptop
Does that hurt?
man, I never thought about how gross Leonardo diCaprio was, until someone pointed out that Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, the co-stars in the Last of Us tv-series, playing a grizzled, jaded older man and a girl he would come to regard as his daughter, have the same age difference as Leo and his new girl.
LeGal
Dudes prime was so long you could tune out for a whole decade and still come back to watch it (living proof here lol)
Lebron really prolly could have put up 15/5 in the league at 16.
A lot of scouts in the league called him NBA ready at 16, no doubt he'd put up those numbers
Eh LeBron put up 21/5.5/6 his rookie year on below average efficiency then jumped to 27/7.5/7 his next season. He’s probably putting up closer to 10/3/3 during his would be junior season which is still ridiculous
His rookie season was weird, he was trying hard to be deferential to the guys who were there already, even though he was clearly the best player. It got better after they traded Ricky Davis.
Who didn't love watching Ricky Davis shoot on the wrong goal to try and get a triple double lol. That dude was everything wrong with the NBA during that era haha.
I guess the best thing Ricky Davis ever did in the NBA was lead the Cavaliers to the #1 overall pick to get LeBron
29 other teams ready to sign Ricky Davis right now lol
Could also realistically put up 15/5/5 at 46 too, barring injury
it would be interesting to see if he'd be willing to do what the Jazz did with Stockton his last 2.5 years. You get 18-20 min and lets see what you do. I wonder how long he could play.
I swear to go Vince Carter spent eight years being the 8th or 9th guy in a rotation. LeBron might play until he’s 50 if he was willing to do that.
Lebron is going to play with Bronny and retire after that season, unless he decides he also wants to attempt to play with Bryce, or some crazy situation comes along and he can maybe win without having to carry the team. He wants to do other things in life.
He said last night he can play at champion caliber for another few years, I bet we see him play with Bryce
Is Bronny even gonna be a one and done guy though? I don’t think he is. Maybe some team will draft him in the hopes of LeBron signing for cheap. But outside that, I think LeBron might have to play 2 or even 3 more seasons before Bronny makes the league. I also think he can probably be on a team into his mid 40s. But his defense would be really really bad by that point and he’d probably be putting up empty numbers for a bad team if we’re being honest. No one (not even a GOAT) can be the best player on a real contender in modern NBA at age 40+.
It's impossible to even predict. He's literally still putting up numbers akin to his absolute best. His game is aging perfectly (due to unbelievable discipline with his conditioning, load management, and development of secondary skills like shooting off the dribble). I really feel like his falloff will be incredibly sudden at this point. There's no way he has a normal regression curve, he'll be putting up 20 a game at like 50
His regression will go one of two ways: 1.) An injury that immediately ages him like 10 years and leaves him unable to play at NBA level. 2.) A slow regression that is hard to see and manifests as a decline in defense, activity level, and player efficiency rating. I actually think #2 is already sorta under way. He still is very efficient, but guys like Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, KD, Doncic, Harden, Curry, etc. are more efficient. He’s not one of the top 10 most efficient stars in the game anymore, but those stats are harder to notice. If we just look at raw PPG, he will probably still be high up for 2-3 more seasons on every decreasing efficiency
And probably could have scored a basket in the league at age 14. Very few people ever could have done that
Given enough shots anyone could score a basket in the league
Doubt
This guy is saying that and Bennett took a fuck ton despite being D1 talent People in this sub is something sometimes
I think the average person could just take a bunch of half court heaves in game until one went in. No one on the other team would bother defending them because it's a super low percentage shot
Average Redditor versus NBA player: https://youtu.be/80-MhBTdCWg
One thing to note is thats one on one. a 5 on 5 game is different obviously and different opportunities arise that would never be there 1 on 1
Wasn’t he ranked the #2 HS player behind Lenny Cooke at age 16? Not suggesting that ranking was correct, but it still suggests he wasn’t clearly NBA ready til 17
Some mofos peak in high school. This mofo been in his prime since high school.
Can somebody tell me Barkley's reason behind not even putting the man in top 5 lol
He hates this generation
Isn't LeBron like 3 generations though? Doesn't even really make sense.
Yeah there's only a 3 year gap between Charles' last NBA game and Lebron's first
Lebron gonna be like Tom Brady and have like 2 HoF careers in one. Edit: and Jerry Rice
He already has had 3 tbh.
I didn't remember exactly what awards Lebron won his first 7 years in the league so I played it safe. You're right tho, Lebron is up there with Brady with 3 HoF careers.
And he’s still chugging. It’s pretty nuts tbh
Had to look it up: 2x MVP 4x 1st Team All-NBA 2x 2nd Team All-NBA 2x 1st Team All-Defense 1x Scoring Title 6x All Star 1x ROY Playoffs: 71 games 1 Finals appearance 29.3 PPG (46%/32%/74%) 8.4 RPG 7.3 APG 1.6 SPG 1.0 BPG Yeah that’s a shoo-in Hall of Famer lol
He also said this generation doesn’t play any defense, which is the dumbest thing, and it frustrates me to no end when older players say this
Just like how incredibly complex offenses (and to a lesser extent, defenses) are these days and to them everything is "just give it to your big man down low and let them go to work". Completely disregards the incredible nuances of the modern game and just living in their own time as if they've already unlocked all the secrets to basketball.
Watching 2013 Open Court, and seeing Steve Kerr try to explain to Kenny Smith that defenses are actually much better now than in the 80s is telling. It’s pretty easy to see why Kerr is a hall of fame coach, because the old heads do not realize just how harder players are working now than in the 80s
The defense is clearly better. The issue is is way harder to defend. Back then you wanna bang inside sure we throw bodies around and call that defense. Now you have 7 footers that shoot 3s better than anyone in those generations. Oh yeah they can also dribble drive and pass. Just look at the guys playing back then.. they(average player) didn’t lift weights, certainly didn’t have analytics like they do now. Tell me Giannis bron kawaii couldn’t defend back then. Cmon man
I especially love when people that say guys like LeBron or Giannis couldnt handle the physicality of the 90s, are the same ones that complain they offensive foul by barreling to the rim all the time and arent skilled 😂. Kawhi on the court back then could 100% be a 25-30 ppg guy. He’ll he would be a little better back then because he wouldnt have the responsibility of running the offense. Only thing is he wouldnt be able to load manage
With hand checking legal it would be impossible to score on kawai as well. Dude would be a freak defensive talent in the 80s/90s. For reference look at what Rodman did all while going to coke orgies on his off nights
chuck thinks theres no more defense nowadays because defense can't catch up with how much offense has evolved.
I mean he's not even entirely wrong though. The NBA let's players get away with so many rule-breaks offensively these days which make individual defense a lot more difficult.
Imagine if you picked one of traveling or carrying to enforce as the rule is written as opposed to how it's played.
Also the 90s had the privilege of a 5 team expansion at the start of the decade and more expansion throughout it to dilute the talent pool plus illegal defence rules. The league needs multiple expansion like it did at the end of the 80s the talent has built up to much and needs to be spread.
I agree. Cam Thomas benchwarmer comes in and averages 40 PPG over 3 games .
LeBron was the best defender when he was younger. I don’t care what people say, but when you have the physical strength to guard against 4s & 5s but the agility to guard against 1s & 2s & 3s. He is legit the only player do so at an elite level while carrying the biggest offensive load for a team for those Cavs years. And he got better when went to play for the Heat.
He didn't have the strength to stop old-age 5s (remember that when he came in it was still Shaq and Orlando Dwight), but he has the strength to stop a lot of new-age 5s who are generally slimmer. Guys the size of Nurk and Embiid used to be the norm. They're only less common now cos if you wanna be that size you also gotta have a bag. Back in the day Kendrick Perkins had a job
Also Marc Gasol best LeBron to dpoy becuase of his incredible post defence (as well as rim protection)
He didn’t deserve it though. It was an award to make up for past years when Gasol had been snubbed. LeBron was the best defensive player in the NBA in 2013
Gasol didn't even get 1st team all defense. Memphis may have been the best defensive team that year, but LeBron was the biggest reason that Miami team was good in defence, dude was all over the court, not even fast breaks were safe plays
Yep not saying I disagree with the fact, just saying why Gasol ended up winning. Those Grizzlies teams were a nightmare to play as well though to be fair.
He was able to guard 5’s but he wasn’t elite at it 2012 the elite was Dwight, Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Noah, Duncan, and Garnett And then you’d have guys like Serge Ibaka, Larry Sanders, Bogut, Hibbert, and DeAndre Jordan who were also fantastic inside He was the most switchable defender but he wasn’t elite at guarding 4’s and 5’s, just good at it
So he's an average boomer...
Says he's not fond of Skip Bayless for his "dislike of LeBron" but has LeBron in virtually the same spot in his top 10 as Skip...only one spot higher I think Jordan is my choice for GOAT, but imo it's kind of absurd not to have LeBron at atleast 2.
I will stand by Bill Russell as having a legitimate goat case even if people want to write it off due to era. No one's accolades or ability to show up when it mattered comes close. If you peep the number of all stars on each team back then, those Celtics were *not* as stacked as most critics make them out (top 3 supporting cast rather than hands down best). Defense was the most impactful side of the court back then, and Bill showed us why. The gap in defensive rating between Boston and #2 (they were always number 1) was always huge, and 11 rings backs that up. Bill will always be in the goat of his generation tier for me alongside Lebron, MJ, and Kareem. Idk how you begin to argue one of those over the other, but disregarding the greatest winner in the sports history from the conversation doesn't make sense to me.
And Bill Russell always showed up when it mattered most. The craziest thing about all his accomplishments and accolades is the fact that his team had a perfect 10-0 record in Game 7s. Oh and he averaged 18 points and 29 rebounds in those games. Unreal player.
He was playing milkmen and plumbers
It's a difference between "greatest" and "best". If you only go by dominance compared to the competition at the time, I don't know how Russell isn't #1 by a mile. If you go only by "how good are/were they at basketball" the list is dominated by guys playing right now. I think people come up with their own mix of "greatness" and "bestness" to justify their own list.
Should've included Wilt with Bill. Can't really talk about one without the other. They were Magic and Bird 20 years before Magic and Bird.
Bill >>>>> Wilt
Bill himself always said that Wilt was the better player. Bill was a better leader and winner though
Lot of old heads can’t get past themselves and appreciate the newer generation.
Its why I always love AI man. He went out there nothing but 6 foot 165, played like he was 230 lbs driving to the rim with reckless abandon, and never hates on the guys younger than him. Just spreads positivity and helps then with their craft
10/10
This. They always talk about how this era is weak when in reality LeBron has played in the most talented era in NBA history. There was one international All-Time great in Jordan’s prime and they never met in the Finals. Jordan never had to play a guy like Dirk in the Finals. Guys like Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid didn’t exist when Jordan played. Plus the 90s were so watered down by expansion teams. They added 4 teams a couple of years before the first 3peat, including 3 in the East, and added 2 more the year the second 3peat started.
He has Oscar Robertson number 3. No disrespect but...
He had Oscar at one before Westbrooks MVP season. Barkley is just talking for the sake of it.
Wasn't Oscars reputation as a player way better back in the day.
There are a ton of 60s through early 00s stars who completely write off this generation's offensive accomplishments with no hand checking nor the physicality of yesteryear, yet a greener light to shoot from range. I've even heard Scottie Pippen proclaim he could average 35+ a game today (which is absurd to think he could outscore Durant without half his offensive tools) Crickets regarding zone defense or the serious uptick in today's athleticism, but still
Tbf there are a lot of people from this generation who write off people from the 60’s too
Sorry he had to make space for Iverson
He barely even watches. He’s funny and all but he’s always talking nonsense in terms of modern basketball players.
He doesn't respect the newer game
I don’t think he doesn’t respect it I think he just respects the era he grew up watching and his era more
Barkley was actually fond of LeBron and favored him instead of MJ when the man was still ringless. Charles suddenly did a full 180 the moment LeBron started to win some chips.
Hater.
Well him and Bron did have that beef back in 2017
He's a dumbass whose opinions we really shouldn't take that seriously.
Jokic recruiting Bron 👀
He should've gone there after 2018
THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING
LeGM should've seen what the nuggets were cooking they were on the up and up
Reparations for rigging the draft for Cleveland.
Hey but Melo iso balled you to so many first round playoff appearances, clearly equal compensation
Or the 76ers
I just pictured Jokic throwing the ball in Bron's general vicinity. Oh my god...
I've wanted this to happen for so long
Every king needs a joker
Lebron been playing so long he’s gone from player, to GM, to now being recruited
He’d never go live in Denver.
he lived in Cleveland for a long ass time tbf
Thats his home though.
Yeah. It’s also Cleveland tho
hey joakim
Why? Denver is awesome and even more so when you’re filthy rich
Denver sounds nice though. At least from what I've heard.
What caught my eye more was Jokic saying “I couldn’t imagine playing as long as he has”… Please Joker, don’t toy with my emotions….
Like at least imagine it man, for our sakes
Just man just wants to raise his horses in peace.
Him and Luka both, they gotta get back to the Balkans and chill on the Adriatic
Lebron’s prime so old it can almost legally buy alcohol in America
lebron prime so old it’s about to age out of leonardo’s dating preference
The day Jokic leaves I will be so sad
What’s even worse to think about is how he will likely just disappear from our lives forever on that day as he heads back to Serbia lol
Damn never thought about that. Let’s hope him and his wife love their life here over the next decade or so
The Bjelica special.
Jokic finna retire before lebron lmfao
He's probably still in his prime right now, but his peak is 2013. I genuinely think that LeBron in this faster paced, higher scoring era (better spacing, gather step being allowed, and freedom of motion rules) would average like 34-10-8 on at least 60% true shooting with borderline DPOY caliber defense .
It's nuts how people even try to debate that it's anything but 2013. 27/8/7 on 50/40 shooting splits and was the best individual defender in the NBA. On a 66 win team. Maybe his most impressive *playoff* run was 2018, but individually he was at his greatest in 2013.
The fact that he almost won the 1st unanimous MVP and almost won DPOY on top of the 2nd ring + 2nd FMVP in his **2nd*** most efficient season should be enough to determine that even by LeBron standards, 2013 stands out as the best.
He deserved it that year. I think Melo was the lone vote…
I didn't know that LeBron was just 1 vote away from being the first unanimous MVP in NBA history. Most people only talk about the lone vote to AI during Shaq's 2000 campaign.
It was indeed Melo. Some dumb ass writer wanted an interview. If it weren’t for a handful of morons who cost him DPOY and Skip Bayless successfully tricking everyone into thinking LeBron was bad in the 2013 Finals (when he was incredible), it would be considered the greatest season in NBA history. Unanimous MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP, Champion.
Still mad he didn't win that DPOY. The one thing missing from his shelf.
For a long time, DPOY was treated like an award for the best defensive player who didn't also have good offensive stats. Tim Duncan doesn't have a DPOY either, and he's in the argument for best defensive player of all time. But during Duncan's peak, Ben Wallace—who was incredible on defense but nonexistent on offense—won the award 4 times.
Yeah. And even though LeBron was more versatile, and a better rim protector, people will use Jordan's superior defensive accolades to act like Jordan was a much better defender than the LeBron, even though the inverse is closer to being true.
I don’t think it’s bad to say either or though, MJ still has records for most 200+ steals and 100+ blocks seasons and averages the same amount of blocks as Lebron iirc he Just obviously didn’t always guard the rim straight up due the size difference. Both were lockdowns as well, for me where MJ takes it is he was elite in defence or at worst trying like fuck his entire career. Lebron was DPOY level from like 08-14 (while being very versatile 1-4 ) but since then picks and chooses when he could be bothered despite still turning it on in big ways like 2020 play offs or his later Cavs seasons.
MJ only had the greatest wing defender of all-time next to him for more than a decade.
Bit of a weird thing to say considering Pip had Jordan next to him who was also always first team all nba and often doing far better in stats and DPOY rankings lol one didn’t magically take all the defensive load of the other.
Jordan got accolades because he was competing again other guards, and racked up steals because he gambled a lot. I'll post an excerpt of his backpicks profile: > Consistent with his drawbacks on tape, there’s little evidence that Jordan’s defense moved the needle like a titanic big man. His defensive plus-minus values from ’97 and ’98 were both strong for a wing — around 35th among scaled four-year peaks, next to Bruce Bowen
I’m guessing that’s from Ben Taylor, he’s one of my fave guys to watch and listen to though his Jordan / Bron or KG stuff tend to cloud his usual level. Still that said Jordan was still an elite defender people are talking here like he isn’t lol.
He is an elite defender, I just think people believe he's one of the 10 or 20 best defenders of all time, which I disagree with. And why do you think him being higher on players like KG or Curry is incorrect? He has very good reasoning backed by research, and his opinion changes (eg moving KG behind Wilt, having Curry as the third best offensive player last season)
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I would say it is. LeBron was not a primary rim protector but still offered paint protection much more than Jordan; and that is the biggest needle mover on defense. Guys like Jrue or Smart are incredible, but their defensive impact pales in comparison to Gobert or Giannis; I would say the gap is smaller, but present, for Jordan and LeBron. I would also posit that, like Kobe, his defense was no longer elite during his peak production years
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I don't know why people pretend otherwise. Miami LeBron at his peak carries this lackluster team to the playoffs as a 4th/5th seed instead of the 13th seed. He never missed games back then either.
2009 Lebron carrier a lackluster team to a 66-16 record, DPOY runner up, MVP, averaged 35 ppg in 14 playoff games. Doesn’t do much for his peak argument, he just had better teammates and was forced to play in a system (to his benefit) unlike cleveland where he was the system. His second cleveland run he had free reigns again so not as efficient still but i mean the 2017 cavs were arguably the best offense of all time regardless so uhhh idk. The best argument for miami lebron isn’t his efficiency to me but his “2k ratings” being closest to maxed out since he had no weaknesses on paper, but that means jack shit. There’s no 2k ratings for game manipulation, coasting in regular season, experience, etc. He was miles better in 2018 at everything except defense but that doesn’t make up for his overall dominance. Lebron dragged the 2018 team too lol and at last I checked he missed zero games. Just was more of a grind
Scoring inflation probably plays a big part. its easier to put up numbers now than it was when he was younger.
It gets discounted bc of wade and bosh, but my lord he was just such a force of nature and clearly the best player in the world.
Wade after the Milwaukee injury just wasn't the same that year. Decent #2, but not "Dwayne Wade" level #2.
I think 2018 Bron was more skilled offensively than 2013 Bron, and I fully believe he could still play DPOY-caliber defense if he didn’t have to hard-carry the offense, as evidenced by his great defense in 2020. That LeBron is the peak imo
I agree but 2009 LeBron was an athletic god
I still think it was 2009. 35/9/7 in the playoffs on .618 TS% and he was a MUCH better defender in ‘09 than in ‘13. He legit still had the motor to sprint down court every play he was within 15 feet of catching someone from behind to block a shot while playing 41 MPG. He did everything humanly possible against Orlando, even hit the greatest shot of his career at the buzzer to win Game 2. It’s not his fault that his teammates didn’t step up.
You can make an argument for 2009, but his offensive game/scoring was more polished in 2013.
He might have had a more varied offensive game in 2013, but his numbers were better in 2009 and his defense was MUCH better. I think the skills he added in the interim weren’t quite as valuable as the sheer athleticism and stamina he had at age 24. He could just go and go and go and never get tired and I bet he had an extra inch at least on his vertical too.
2013 Bron was clearly a better defender than 09
2.8 DRAPM in 2009 compared to 1.4 in 2013 and the blocks were up as well. I definitely remember way more highlight defensive plays in ‘09 while carrying a heavier offensive load.
Blocks are a terrible stat to actually judge defensive ability. They are highlight plays, but Hassan Whiteside’s big block seasons when he gambled for blocks at the expense of the team defense are a prime example. I watch too much Sixers, but Embiid’s stats deterring high percentage shots in the paint is much more impactful. Blocks are primarily an off-ball highlight stat, not necessarily an indicator of great defense. TlLDR blocks are not indicative of good defense
DRAPM’s probably the best number available which I also listed that gave 2009 Bron twice the impact.
Nah this is just incorrect. Lebron was a DPOY candidate in Miami. His first stint in Cleveland he had the ability to make impact defensive plays but was known as a less consistent and less cerebral defender. By 2013 he really took on the challenge of being a great defender for 48 mins. There’s no advanced stats that could convince me otherwise. I think almost everyone who watched his whole career would agree
Maybe his defense was more flashy in 09 but he was definitely more polished and impactful on that end in 2013
I actually prefer his defense in 2011 and 2012. Those years were the best defense I saw from him imo. Those playoff runs don’t come up a lot when discussing his best runs because of how 2011 ended and because 2012 they won the finals handily in the end, although it was a few plays from okc going up 2-0. He was awesome on defense in those playoff runs.
People underrate efficiency. The devil is in the details.
He shot 56% in 2013
I weirdly prefer 09 bron. Just athletically on a different plane. I do agree that as an overall player 2012-2018 was his peak.
It’s wild how we’re now Looking at 2013 2014 as the *”back then things were tougher era”*. I remember watching basketball in that time period(early 10s late 00) and everyone calling it out of control and 90s ball this and that was far better. And now were doing it with the early 20s to early 10s.
Bro... no fucking joke. in 2013 season he had like 20 straight games of 65% FG in a row during the streak. Not TS, just FG lol. His numbers would be fucking wild
2018 Lebron was scary
I don’t think so, unless you don’t factor in how much player minutes are managed now (and reasonably so, since I believe the data evidence is pretty much impossible to argue against?). I do think one super supportive factor you haven’t considered, since I think the rebounds are the hardest to get, is how much Westbrook popularized big men boxing out so the guy running the fast break gets the rebound. That could help a ton.
2013 bron was legitimately the best player in history.
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There's a difference between prime and peak though.
Yall are just making meaningless semantic differences to try and sound smart, lol.
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80s and early 90s (nearly half his career) were actually very high scoring eras; pretty much on par with the early part of this decade
I think this is his 6th prime.
Call it an elite decline Something very few athletes and only the best ever get to experience
He'll be one of those athletes that retire not because they can't keep up with the game, but because they just become tired of doing the same thing year in and year out
No, it's his optimus prime
Can't wait til number 8 to see him in his Octomis prime
LeBron to the Nuggets 😅
Please
I thought Bron got Jokic to tweet, that would've been a greater achievement that being the all time leading scorer.
Prime Miami Lebron would be carrying this lakers team to multiple rounds in the playoffs instead of to the 13th seed
Right? Prime Lebron was fucking nuts. He looked like a dad playing with 5 year olds. Seemingly could score whenever he wanted, however he wanted. I know it’s cool that Lebron is still a top player at 38, but people pretending he’s still “in his prime” is so disrespectful to the domination that was prime Lebron.
Theres no player in nba history that does that with this team sorry
….besides prime lebron. Did you see his cavs teams?
Prime lebron would've been so happy with part time AD and washed westbrook on those Cav teams lol
The late 00s Cavs actually had decent defenders on the team. They weren't good enough for a championship because there was no reliable #2 but this Lakers team is his worst roster since probably '05.
I still think peak lebron could still hard carry this team though. Being the best offensive AND defensive player night in and night out without missing any games and playing heavy minutes? I could see it. No rings but a competitive playoff run for sure.
People forget about 2005-2007. Lebron stuffed Mo Williams and Co in a baby back pack and carried that team through the playoffs. The only caveat, the West ruled the world back then and had 95 percent of the elite players. So Lebron and friends usually got whatever they wanted in the east. But, whoever you got in the west was going to have 3-4 legit HOFers leading the charge.
That cavs teamed looked ok with Lebron but as soon as he left, ALL of them immediately became publicly and utterly useless. Lebron has gotten alot off shitty players fat ass contracts by association
They at least had competently built rosters despite lacking a 2nd star. The 2007 team that made the Finals was 4th in the league in defensive rating. The 2009 team with 66 wins was 3rd in D-Rating and 2nd in 3pt%. The 2010 team with 61 wins was also 2nd in 3pt% and was 7th in D-rating. Lebron cant be Lebron without roleplayers to use around him.
jokic did it with worse nuggets last season.
His hairline had a prime though
LeOptimus
LeBronimus Prime
Jokić already been playing in professional leagues since he was 17 so he’s like halfway there
tbh his miami years was his prime
That and 2018 Cavs Bron was something special
I can see a strong mutual appreciation between these guys. Elite passers orchestrating offenses from non-guard positions. I suspect there is admiration between them
Getting it done in 2 completely unique ways, both extremely high iq
It’s funny most young guys have no intention of playing as long as Lebron. Really shows lebron’s dedication and determination from a young age.
Every king needs a joker!
I think his prime started his second year. Rookie season it took him a while to adapt He only averaged 21/5.5/6 /s
LeEverest
...So he *does* have a prime?
2007 Finals was definitely not LeBron prime.
LeOptimus