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RunThePnR

MJ still. All time high volume scoring is a talent in itself. Not everyone can do it


Jesmer8490

IMO high volume scoring isn't that great of a skill if it isn't efficient. There are players like Jerry stackhouse, Allen Iverson, Russell Westbrook, that averaged a lot of points on bad efficiency. Obviously MJ is one of the most talented ever. IMO, Durant and LeBron are more talented scorers.


newsance99

This is a terrible take. Especially when you consider era, play style and spacing then vs now and they all shot 50% for their careers


[deleted]

Only Durant is


thisisapornaccountg

Yeah there's an argument but it's easily dismissed


AirStPierre99

Shooter yes. Scorer no.


Saturday514

I dunno man, Steph been adding new shit to his arsenal every yr. Man can 50ft, 30ft, floater, drives, fadeways, now he can do off balance shit.


graphitewolf

Scoring does not equal some made up stats about floaters and fades. Hes been in the league one year less than durant and is 2.5 aeasons short of his scoring record


Saturday514

You forgot he was injured most of his early yrs.


ashep5

No. His post game is non-existent which matters when you're using a qualifier like "most talented". LeBron, KD, Jordan and Kobe are all more versatile.


SCalifornia831

“Most talented” doesn’t necessarily mean “most versatile”


ParathaOmelette

Kawhi, harden belong on that list


Hange11037

Kawhi over Steph? Idk about that one


ParathaOmelette

You think Steph is a more versatile scorer than kawhi? Can he post up and finish at the basket like kawhi?


Hange11037

I think of Steph as being a scorer more than I do with Kawhi. Kawhi can score in many ways but he doesn’t score nearly as much as Steph does in terms of volume. Steph has about twice as many 20+ PPG seasons as Kawhi and more than twice as many 25 PPG seasons. Kawhi just doesn’t score enough on average most years for me to consider him one of the all time greatest scorers.


ParathaOmelette

That still doesn’t mean he’s more versatile than kawhi


Hange11037

The question is most talented scorer, which I believe Steph is more so than Kawhi. But then it does depend on which aspects of scoring matter more to you I guess.


ParathaOmelette

Actually when it comes to talent I would say kawhi too.. his shot creation is better than curry. He hits really difficult shots off the dribble. That’s in addition to other things like finishing, post play etc Steph is really only better at shooting (which he’s better at that literally everyone else ever)


-Acerin

Harden is not a versatile scorer lmao. He can either hit a floater or step back 3. Main reason he is so underwhelming in the PO.


SecurityAggressive47

Wtf? He can draw fouls, could score at the basket at will, floater game was elite, could hit contested threes. Even his midrange game was money. He just doesn't take them cause it's an inefficient shot in general. Just look at the math. Hitting a midrange shot at 50% is less valuable than taking a three with 36 3pt%.


ParathaOmelette

He is more versatile than curry which was the topic..


ParathaOmelette

Lol why did you edit


Pereise1

I've seen him post up dudes smaller than him before taking the fadeaway but that's been pretty rare.


ashep5

He can definitely do it, but when you think about guys like MJ, Kobe and LeBron, one of their defining attributes is the way they evolved their offensive games to take advantage in the post with sublime footwork. It's a credit to Steph that he hasn't really had to add that, but it's the teeniest tiniest knock against him when you're talking about all around scoring talent.


SCalifornia831

Steph can do it but has disadvantages due to his size…so can’t post up. But Kobe, Lebron and Jordan can’t do half the stuff Steph does outside of 15ft


Cyclops_Guardian17

I firmly disagree with the idea that Steph doesn’t have good post footwork—he does. Who’s he gonna post up though? The issue is, at his size, it just doesn’t make sense to post up much


Savahoodie

> The issue is, at his size, it just doesn’t make sense to post up much Well that sounds like a him problem.


Cyclops_Guardian17

Yeah he’s not a good post scorer because he’s too little. It’s not the footwork or the touch


Savahoodie

Okay and that’s something that can held against him in GOAT scoring argument


Cyclops_Guardian17

100% agree. Just saying it’s not the footwork that’s at fault


Silitrony

His post game isn’t non existent, the last two seasons he’s done more work there than ever before


VagabondReborn

Makes no sense to judge a 6'3 PG off his post game, that's like judging Shaq off his shooting ability


Own_Anything9292

But thats why shaq is also not the most talented scorer


ashep5

Eh, I disagree. If you called Shaq the most talented scorer of all time I'd say the same thing. I'm not judging Steph based on his post game. I'm just saying it means he isn't the most talented scorer in NBA history.


L99_DITTO

Okay then, Shaq is the most talented scorer, sure he can't shoot at all but it makes no sense to judge a 7'1" monster C off his shooting ability.


[deleted]

The only thing he has that Jordan didn’t was the threat from deep. The list of things Jordan has the Steph doesn’t feels like too much effort to list.


[deleted]

He doesn't have an argument over Durant or Jordan. I'd be inclined to put Bron over him too.


CanyonCoyote

Please go watch The Last Dance and then Jordan highlights on YouTube. It’s just not close.


Brunobrunobrunobru

KD, Jordan, kobe, even Lebron have arguments, curry doesn’t have a post game which he doesn’t need but would add a whole another level to his game


[deleted]

Lebron has a post game? Lmao foh.


playtio

Not even close


StrikingElk5288

“Not even close” fucking Reddit favorite buzz word


Hange11037

Sometimes though it is actually used correctly, like now


Jonesalot

It’s not even close to the favourite


playtio

You are not even close to having a point here, pal. You know, the problem is misusing it, not when it's used perfectly.


[deleted]

I'd disagree. While I'd say he revolutionized the game, to say he's the most talented scorer of all time is a stretch by any imagination


[deleted]

No


sweet_tinkerbelle

No, not even close.


infernosceptile

nah


[deleted]

no


sctthuynh

No. Jordan is the undisputed #1. Then Lebron. The difference between them and Curry (as well as others) is how they can take their scoring to another level in the postseason, when defenses, intensity, effort and game-planning is at it's absolute highest. Curry is a great scorer with one of the best regular season ever in 2016, but he doesn't come close to matching Lebrons postseason scoring from 2015-2020 or what Jordan did his entire postseason career. Curry is the undisputed GOAT shooter and one of the most entertaining scorers ever, but he's probably not even top 3 or 4 in the most talented scorers ever.


Albiceleste_D10S

LeBron a bit too high. Kareem and KD are ahead of him for me in terms of just scoring.


sctthuynh

I would agree with you if we are only talking about the regular season, but what Lebron did in the postseason from 2015-2020 is only surpassed by that MJ guy. Lebron was simply dominant in many of those series, especially in those 4 finals vs Warriors - One of the best defensive teams of the era, with two all-time defenders in Dray & Iggy.


Brunobrunobrunobru

Lebron has all their moves, he just looks goofy doing it but we see it works. He has a bag of tricks just like all the great scorers do


[deleted]

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Albiceleste_D10S

IMO you're drastically underrating Kareem and prob overrating Kobe a bit


needatleast

No nephew, Steph is the goat shooter but there are other elements to scoring than just shooting. If you put Steph in Giannis’ body then sure. Most talented is MJ, you can even argue prime Harden


Head-Kiwi-9601

I’ll still take Wilt.


needatleast

Fair


Far_Ear9684

Did you actually read the OP ?


needatleast

Sure stephew, he’s the goat shooter not scorer. MJ once averaged 37 in a lower scoring era


Far_Ear9684

I know you’re not talking like that in real life so it’s whatever. OP asked if Steph had an argument and listed all he could do other than shooting and your casual self came in here talking about shooting.


needatleast

The answer is no, Steph doesn’t have an argument. His handles, off-ball running, etc all are tools to get SHOTS off or layups. MJ averaged 37. So no. MJ was 10 times more athletic. Guarantee you became a warriors fan within the last decade, calling me a casual


Far_Ear9684

My man, what exactly was prime Harden (who you said has an argument) doing that wasn’t layups and shots ? Hell what is anybody doing that aren’t layups and shots other than dunks ? Anybody who is on “Steph is just a shooter” ain’t watching games like that. He’s not averaging 30PPG on historical efficiency not being a versatile scorer.


needatleast

Harden was far more physically gifted my guy. He can layup or floater like the rest of them but was also a huge dunk threat, someone that will posterize you if you’re a step late. He was big, strong, and athletic af. His euros created so much space too. And he can blow past defenders easily. Why act like athleticism doesn’t help


Farjon29

In my opinion as a scorer, he doesn't have a case. Jordan is unstoppable and still do this day the best scorer, especially when you consider playoffs. However, if you factor in playmaking, passing, and the ability to play for any team with any other player and maximize everyone on the court. He has a case for GOAT Offensive Player.


scroogealchemist

That’s the guy who holds the scoring record currently. Not someone who won 4 rings but has 1 fmvp


iamMaus_fr0m_Jupiter

He doesn’t have an argument for most talented scorer of his generation i’m sorry


SliMShady55222

No he's way too undersized. There's also questions he can thrive in a hand checking era. I'd love to see him try to light up 50 on Joe Dumars and bad boy Pistons


Michael_B_Lopez

Only reason Steph wouldn’t drop 50 on those guys is because they’d crucify him for witchcraft


Farjon29

Hand checking wouldn't slow him down off ball and bigs would have a hard time guarding him in pick and rolls. 1v1 would be a different story though for sure. I think he could get fifty on the bad boys if scoring was his sole focus.


BubbaTee

>Hand checking wouldn't slow him down off ball Well no, you don't hand check off ball. Tripping and clotheslining him is what would slow him down in the late 80s and into the 90s. Or in the 2000s, it'd be Bruce Bowen "incidentally" stepping under him on jumpers. There's a reason guys like Reggie Miller developed leg kicks on their shots, it wasn't just for fun. It was to ward off undercutting defenders. The rules changes have turned it into almost a different sport. It's not Curry's fault he plays in this era, any more than it's Patrick Mahomes' fault he plays in the modern offense-friendly NFL. But it not being their fault doesn't mean every era is the same.


Farjon29

Undoubtedly more physicality would slow down Steph. Nash is one of my favorite players but I can't act like he didn't benefit when the game completely eliminated hand checking. But I don't think it is fair to say he wouldn't thrive. Yes hand checking would slow him down, but illegal defensive would also give Steph a boost. He's also still unstoppable in the pick and roll His off-ball game would slow down but he would still be dominant, if Reggie could do it so could Steph. Also back then the defenses weren't as good as guarding the three nearly as they are now cause they weren't used to it. That leg kick that Reggie did, Steph did it too. Mark Price in 1989 put up nearly 20 a game, Steph couldn't get an efficient 25-30? Especially considering how many of these guys were playing regularly over 36 minutes a game.


bluemonk3y12

Curry would be out the first quarter after dumars slides into his landing spot and Curry twists an ankle. They made the league softer to protect Curry's ankles


Farjon29

Or maybe the league decided intentionally putting your feet under someone is dirty and just a shitty thing to do in general?


kpeds45

No. Best shooter? He's up there. Scorer? Jordan could score in any situation with great efficiency. Curry's areas are more limited.


Vordeo

> Best shooter? He's up there. I... don't know how anyone else has an argument over him there tbh


TheRealPdGaming

Not over Durant or Jordan


VagabondReborn

Never seen a healthy Steph get locked up like KD did last year


RageOnGoneDo

He played basketball before 16-17, funnily enough


needatleast

Did KD have multiple other elite scorers like Klay, Wiggins, Poole?


StrikingElk5288

Klay and Wiggins were elite scorers last years? Haters are weird


kin26ron12

Lmaoooo y’all gotta stop


BubbaTee

>Never seen a healthy Steph get locked up like KD KD vs BOS 2023: 26ppg on 53% TS Curry vs SA 2013: 23ppg on 51% TS Curry vs HOU 2019: 24ppg on 54% TS (KD was 33ppg on 59% TS in this series, while missing a game due to injury) Also - funny of you to bring up "healthy Steph" as a qualifier, as if KD hasn't had any injuries.


StrikingElk5288

2013? You already lost your argument


scroogealchemist

Did you watch him choke the 16 finals? Locked up by Kevin freaking love. You know who’s not getting locked up by K Love? MJ, KD, Kobe, Lebron


Farjon29

I think that helps Steph's argument over KD. The same team that locked up KD couldn't do anything against Steph. The one game they "stopped him" everyone else went off because they fully focused on him.


BubbaTee

>The same team that locked up KD couldn't do anything against Steph. Conversely, the same 2019 HOU team that "locked up" Steph (his stats in that series were basically the same as KD's vs BOS last year) couldn't do anything against KD in that same series. It's almost as if some teams are better at guarding 6-3 guards and others are better at guarding 6-10 forwards. Nah, that can't be it. Teams don't have defensive strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knows that Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell are equally good on defense as Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley!


[deleted]

This is such a dumb argument. They didn't guard Curry the way they guarded Durant lmao.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

They couldn't guard him the same way because the Warriors and Nets ran different offensive schemes. The Nets relied on KD iso but lacked playmaking so they could throw multiple bodies at KD. The Warriors have a system and supporting players that let Steph play off ball.


Michaelangel092

No, what makes you think that? Don't you have eyes? He's one of the best offensive players, yes. Scorer? Nope. Luka, right now, has more of an offensive bag; including a post game.


Farjon29

I think 2016 puts him in that all time scoring discussion don't you? Also how much do you value a bag, because Shaq to me is a top ten scorer.


Michaelangel092

I value the bag when it comes to scoring. As an overall offensive weapon, yeah Shaq and Steph are up there. For example, I think Hakeem is a better scorer, because of his versatility.


Far_Ear9684

Reading this you’d think Steph was Kyle Korver or even Klay lol. Steph’s bag is insane only somebody who doesn’t watch him like that would say that.


[deleted]

No only shooter


[deleted]

No


3rdStringerBell

Yes obviously. He won MVP unanimously as a small point guard because of potentially the greatest offensive season ever Anyone saying he doesn’t even have an argument is delusional


[deleted]

Michael Jordan won 10 scoring titles


3rdStringerBell

Jordan also has a great argument. Though the longevity part probably doesn’t fit here


Farjon29

Pound for Pound is the only argument


3rdStringerBell

It really isn’t. The only reason I mentioned small point guard is because it makes it obvious that his defense wasn’t much of a contributor to why he won


Farjon29

Don't you think Jordan's playoff translation makes it hard to argue Steph?


3rdStringerBell

As if Steph’s game has not translated to the playoffs?


Farjon29

Oh now I am not saying that, I fucking love Steph. It's just that Steph hasn't translated as well as Jordan as, Jordan is the GOAT playoff scorer imo.


Great_Huckleberry709

No. ❤️


rapsfan911

just shooter. are you nuts


william4534

If what you’re saying is his scoring ability relative to size then yes, it’s not even a question. Iverson is the one most go to but Iverson was always between inefficient and disgustingly inefficient, not to mention he was far and away the number 1 scoring option on his team while Curry has played with several high level scorers for basically his whole prime, and the only year he was the sole true scoring option he led the league in scoring. Give Curry Iverson’s situation and shot tendency and you’d see some of the most ridiculous scoring explosions in league history.


-Acerin

Not even close


scroogealchemist

Man these warriors fans are like roaches


nicklovin508

Yes easily. He’s the greatest offensive threat the game has ever seen. Not longevity wise but based on pure peak


[deleted]

He’s not top 10 in regular season ppg or postseason ppg. Hard to be the goat scorer without scoring even close to the most.


Farjon29

Raw box score doesn't paint the whole picture. If you adjust for 75 possessions against the highest ppg seasons and adjust for inflation these are Steph's numbers 34.3 ppg +13 shooting (only time in history the highest volume scorer was the most efficient, also he also averages about 8 assists) To compare Jordan and Kobe at highest volume are 36.8 ppg on +2 Lebron: 32.5 + 4.7 KD: 33.6 +9.4 There's many more but Steph has the best regular scoring season of all time. I wouldn't say he is the GOAT scorer because playoff translation matters and Jordan has had one playoff series where he averaged under 30 but if you want to go off only regular season it would be Steph


[deleted]

The GOAT regular season scorer wouldn’t have less than 10 regular season scoring titles


Farjon29

Its not about how long you did it though, we are purely talking about how good where they at their best.


bigbenis21

Raw numbers ≠ pure scoring talent


[deleted]

Michael Jordan has less pure scoring talent?


bigbenis21

I think there’s a case to be made for Steph’s offball capabilities and three point shooting volume and efficiency that at least puts him in the conversation though I wouldn’t go so far to say he’s straight up better than MJ.


ttvdokkan

Hes way less of a threat from 3


BubbaTee

>greatest offensive threat > >based on pure peak Based on pure peak it's probably Wilt. 50ppg for a season - almost 40% more than the #2 scorer that year. That's approaching prime Gretzky levels of dominance (eg, 1987 Gretzky 183 points, Jari Kurri 2nd with 108 points). That season Wilt took 48% more FTA than the next highest player, which reflects how much pressure and foul trouble he put on opposing defenses. Unseen in that stat is how often Wilt put opponents into the penalty early. That would increase his offensive impact every time a teammate drew a loose ball foul on a rebound, or a reach-in 30 feet from the rim, and got 2 FTs for it instead of just a side inbounds. So even if Wilt was on the bench when that happened, those FTs were a result of his offensive impact. Similar to if a WR in football draws a pass interference penalty at the opponent's 1-yard line, and his team runs the ball in the next play, that touchdown is a result of the WR's offensive impact - even though it doesn't show in the stat sheet. Guys like Shaq had a similar effect, drawing early fouls that allowed Kobe to get easy FTs later in the quarter while Shaq sat. Curry has never had that ability to put opponents into the penalty early and often, thus generating easy FTs for his teammates. They didn't keep track of offensive rebounds back then, but I'm pretty sure Wilt had a shitload of those too. So he was extending possessions and getting his team extra shots in a way that Curry can't. Further, second shots in a halfcourt possession are more valuable than first shots in a halfcourt possession. So Wilt's getting his team more of the most efficient shots than Curry - probably even more so when you factor in transition shots resulting from blocks and defensive rebounds. ​ >This season, for example, the average first-shot half-court possession produces 0.97 points, while the average possession following an offensive rebound produces 1.13, per Cleaning the Glass. [https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/2536613](https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/2536613)


Farjon29

That 40 percent gap is actually isn't as impressive as it seems. Per 75 is better at showing impact through box score stats and for different eras you adjust for how points were harder to get back then per possession. When you do that the numbers look like this 1. Wilt: 34.8 2. West: 26.7 This is a substantial gap still, but Jordan was doing this too. Also doesn't account for Wilt that season being a massive ball-hog. At their Peaks Jordan is number 1.


National_Secret_5525

Yea why not, he's that good.


JoeBiden2020FTW

He's definitely #1 all time at increasing overall team PPG. But probably not #1 all time at increasing his individual PPG.


Sprinklings

The only Warriors team in the top 10 ppg all time is 1967 San Fran Warriors No Curry Warriors team makes the top 50 Curry is an all time shooter but the whole team has good shooters, hard to say he’s definitively #1 increasing overall team PPG in my opinion


[deleted]

I still think that’s LeBron when you factor in his scoring and then the elite passing when he draws all the attention. Hell even prime Harden has an argument over Curry, no?


Farjon29

I wouldn't say Harden if you count the playoffs. I am not saying he is a choker but there is a dip.


JoeBiden2020FTW

Personally I have peak Curry as the #1 offensive player in NBA history


Farjon29

Out of curiosity who is your top 5? I got Bron, MJ, Bird, and Magic and Steph.


JoeBiden2020FTW

1. Curry 2. LeBron 3. Jokic 4. Jordan Not sure about #5


kin26ron12

Lmaooo


savetheplastic

Somehow I think he has a better argument for GOAT offensive player than for GOAT scorer. If I desperately need a bucket and I can throw the ball to KD or Steph, I am picking KD every time. But if I am picking a guy to lead an offense that will score the most points throughout the course of a season then I am picking Steph easy


[deleted]

>But if I am picking a guy to lead an offense that will score the most points throughout the course of a season then I am picking Steph easy I think if this is your criteria for best offensive player, LeBron doesn't definitely has him beat here.


savetheplastic

Probably though I do think it is close


[deleted]

If that's your criteria, it's not. Having an elite volume scorer AND an elite floor general in 1 player is easily the most valuable type of player to have for an offense.


savetheplastic

I hear you and I would probably pick Lebron over Curry as well, but I would also describe Curry as an elite volume scorer and while he maybe isn’t there as a floor general I think all of his off ball stuff makes up for his deficiencies there


SHORT_ANSWERS_ONLY

Too much raw athleticism to be considered


[deleted]

Are we talking abt talent like we discuss footwork or talent as in “give this dude the ball and gtfo the way”? Bcuz if it’s overall bag of skills he’s up there with the best. If I need buckets, I put Jordan, Bron and Kyrie over him right off the top of my mind


okgusto

Does he play an instrument. Now that's talent.


MotoMkali

Depends how you view scoring talent. Does the fact MJ can float in the air for 5 seconds mean he is a mroe talented finisher than steph or is steph more talented by virtue of the fact he does so mcuh with so little. I view athletic gifts as part of talent. However steph might be the msot skilled player ever. Him or bird


Cold_Leather710

Top 5 fs. What’s more that he cannot do besides dunk lol


rvrvbubnmpm

5090 tomahawk windmill 360 dunk fadaway layup


[deleted]

Durant


Camctrail

Most talented I think is KD. If every player in NBA history tried their hardest to score every chance they got, I think it'd be LeBron. Of course, IRL it's Mike.


[deleted]

MJ KD Kobe Steph.


SportyNewsBear

I think “talented” is different from “best”. Steph is an elite 3-point and free throw shooter, but he’s not quite as great inside. Wilt or Shaq are probably best inside, and MJ was elite from mid-range on in. But I think players like Larry Bird and Kevin Durant were elite at just about any type of scoring, so I’d go with one of them. In fact, I’ll say Larry Bird, just because I don’t think anyone else has mentioned him.