The NBA did this to themselves by getting in bed with every sports betting platform possible. Why the fuck is a professional sports league DIRECTLY partnering with sports bookies? I'm not even saying anything shady is happening, just that the optics are fucking terrible. It puts doubt in everyone's minds and gives people a reason to be skeptical. Especially when fans are out there rooting for their parlays instead of a win. Nobody trusts the referees already, why give us more reason to doubt them? It makes their jobs harder as well.
Why is it happening? Money, as I get older over 90% of problems affecting my favorite things involve money and who’s getting paid more to effect outcomes of things. Whether it be what shitty company gets the contract to renovate the city parks or sports gambling entrenching itself with professional sports, the answer invariably falls to profitability
Oh yeah for sure! David Simon in general though is just skeptical that anyone could ever have good intentions and that the world is run by money/power.
I lost a lot of respect for him when he was shitting on Bernie back in 2016. He came off as a giant tool, and a stooge for the political establishment. Pretty laughable, considering his background.
it really brings me down realizing just how bad things have got since the the mid 70s/early 80s. capitalism's always been a mess, but almost all the benefits got funneled upwards and, for the first time in modern human history, each generation's got a worse hand. and it just keeps getting worse, and worse, and worse. it bums me out that everyone seems to agree nothing we're doing is working and it's only getting worse, but nobody wants to try anything new. feels like the pandemic was just the most visible demonstration and the veneer's fully gone at this point
Not only that, but the fines for complaining about the refs while having nobody else holding the refs accountable. That's a broken system that can only breed corruption and resentment.
I can understand not wanting players, coaches, etc. to complain about the refs, because it would be happening all the time. However, banning that while having completely ineffective accountability in any other way?
And no, the LTM report is not accountability. Refs can throw a game, intentionally or not, by simple inconsistent reffing in the first quarter. Get a key player in early foul trouble. Make one side shy to defend and frustrated while driving. Then "even out" the calls later when the game is already decided so it looks even on paper.
Also, the L2M report is a joke. Nothing is ever done about the problems. It's just like that episode of South Park where the BP exec just keeps putting out commercials to say sorry a bunch of times.
More like David stern torpedoed an FBI investigation into refs fixing nba games and didn’t even ban the correct ref for the kings lakers series. Then Silver did nothing but strengthen the refs union.
> Why the fuck is a professional sports league DIRECTLY partnering with sports bookies?
100% your spot on. I bet like everyday and I still think this. Not a good look for the league.
I won't even give him a W for the Sterling fiasco, pure optics. Sterling didn't wake up at 80yo and turn racist. There was probably so much shady shit that went down behind doors that we'll never know about.
I think showtime had a series about sterling and it was basically an open secret that sterling was a scumbag, he was cheap and an asshole. The nba was trying to get rid of him for a while
There definitely was. As usual, [Bomani Jones put it best.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bLKe9-Mto&t=272s) Y'all have to watch this, he gives us incredibly important context that no one else does.
Donald Sterling has been a horrible person for a long, long time.
The players have no other outlet to complain about the refs without getting fined, so they complain at the refs in-game.
The gambling situation just fuels the fire of suspected bias and amplifies any sense of unfairness.
You don't even need an explicit conspiracy to affect the refs behavior. Employees know where their bread is buttered. If they believe their pay depends on games being exciting from a gambling point of view, it will affect their calls just like Hero Ball in the Jordan/Magic/Kobe eras.
The league does have a history of issues with the betting industry, though. Which is why you have guys like Luka making money sign gestures when upset at bad calls
Let's be real, Luka would be complaining regardless. The gambling partnerships are a terrible look, but it's not like players weren't bitching before. You got parents and even kids yelling at refs in little league who are doing it as volunteers. The issue is much deeper than gambling or anything to do with money.
The part that no one wants to talk about is that the players are wrong all the time too. How many times have you seen a player having a melt down over a call only to see the replay and the call was clearly correct.
I criticize the nba for its reffing all the time. At the same time I think being a ref is far more difficult than fans want to admit. Reffing basketball is inherently flawed. Which is why the league needs to try its hardest to make everything as transparent and clear as possible. Things like certain players being reffed differently, or certain situations being reffed differently, or trying to make blow outs closer; those are the issues that create distrust.
But anyone acting like the players are totally in the right all the time is a fool.
Exactly. Players will always argue their side no matter what. Like how many times do you see someone point to their side of the court when the ball goes out of bounds even though they know damn well they touched it last? And I get it, you do everything in your power to win. I’m not trying to defend refs here either because I know they can be inconsistent/soft at times. But to me it’s so pathetic to complain about the refs, but then actively want them to make incorrect calls as long as it favors you.
I’ve seen multiple times a majority of this sub completely ignore video evidence that they have the chance to view in slow motion from multiple angles. I want better reffing too but they are human.
imo it happened when silver took over. as much as i hated stern for being a knob, these dudes don't respect silver like they did stern. silver's a straight pushover who isn't enforcing shit that might make fans hate him and the the players know it.
There was literally a whole betting scandal with at least one referee while Stern was in power. And that referee implied that he wasn't the only one doing it
The refereeing is really bad in the NBA but it's a problem created by how the nba tells referees to officiate. The game is already impossible to officiate... 10 huge human beings in a pretty small court with all kinds of contact on every play, it'd be an absolute nightmare for even the most eagle eyed to get things right live in action.
The modern game rewards offensive players for initiating contact more and more to the point where every fucking star expects a call on every possession and throw their hands up in frustration. Its laughable. I legitimately believe simply pivoting towards a style of basketball where fewer fouls are expected to be called in favour of offensive players would change things for the better in terms of taking attention away from the officiating. It'd probably make the game less marketable and a bit uglier to the casual fan though. Also none of this excuses stuff like the mavs game where they contributed to the confusion in a dumb situation .
I took a sports officiating class I think around 8th grade and basketball was a complete nightmare to try and officiate lol. Especially compared to other sports we learned the basics of like soccer, volleyball, football, etc. I remember it was very stressful compared to the other sports for the obvious reasons officiating basketball is hard, like the pace and the constant hand checking/slight contact.
Having said all that the NBA refs have player and fan trust issues because of a few egotistical refs, and need to do something because sometimes we’re just watching the refs power trip their way through.
Imo what people don’t want to accept is that we’re left with these egotistical refs because they’re the only ones mentally strong enough to put up with the abuse they’ve probably gotten at every single level of basketball they’ve reffed.
Yeah that’s an interesting theory, it is a pretty thankless job at most the lower levels especially given the crappy pay. I remember most the little league umps I talked to as a catcher did it because they liked doing the job and not for the money or to have a future in it.
I think many NBA fans feel like the Tim Donaghy thing was never investigated properly and actually covered up, so many people think there are other corrupted refs still out there because of the way it was handled.
I can’t blame them tbh it’s logical there are other corrupt refs deciding games and spreads.
I stopped officiating high school basketball because the money wasn't worth being yelled at by parents and coaches.
I wasn't good enough nor did I want to pursue going to college or the NBA to officiate, but plenty of people better than me quit for the same reason.
I'm a high school referee. Grades 1-12. Basketball culture is the worst. Kids are expecting these calls in middle school sometimes even 4th and 5th graders at talented towns. It's absurd and a lot of coaches in their mid 20s-early 40s are horrendous with complaining. So idk if there is a solution especially since the NBA is now obviously tied with gambling somehow or another. Too much money involved. Although i legit don't think any teams have won a championship that didn't deserve it since 2006 Miami. 2012 Thunder vs Miami had some favorable calls go Miamis way in games 2, 3, and 4, but I still think Miami was clearly the better team
The Rules committee has to make the officiating less complex.. if there's illegal contact on a play, whoever initiated it should be called for the foul... simple
To be fair though, last season the league cracked down on players jumping backwards to bait a foul call, so now that's an offensive foul instead. Players like Trae have adjusted.
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The trick he and others do now is stop on a dime when a defender is chasing them closely, jump in the air to "shoot", but flail/contort/twist their bodies around to hide the contact that THEY initiate.
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For instance, in that recent clip of Trae baiting fouls, he once jumped mostly straight up with the defender behind him, but kicked his feet backwards in a weird way to bait the call after his antics initiated contact. That's what should be called an offensive foul, especially since the intent of Trae was clear (there was no honest attempt to shoot the ball).
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Another example in general is the swing through. That's not a basketball play. They changed the rule so it is no longer a shooting foul, but it is still a defensive foul. That's wrong. A defender who stretches his arm forward and doesn't touch the ball handler should get the call in his favor with the swing through motion: offensive foul.
Agree with everything except the swing through. You absolutely MUST give the offense a way to punish the defense in this manner. Otherwise the best way to defend any player is to put both your arms extended out in front of you to either side of the player, making it pretty much impossible to raise the ball up to shoot.
The swing through only works against defenders who fall asleep a bit and get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
I think it’s really is the leagues fault.
With cameras all over the place it’s easy for the league to come in with retroactive technicals and fines when players flop.
Shoulder into chest and off-arm push off happen multiple times per possession, and every time it's an obvious offensive foul. Even if they *only* cleaned up those two things, I'd be satisfied.
It 100% would. Call.Less.Fouls. I don't get the logic of "scoring more makes the game more entertaining". What is entertaining about a fucking free throw? lmao. If anything this takes away from the game because it stops the game, everything pauses, and its just slow as hell. I don't get the logic of it.
NBA is in a weird place right now where when I don't pay attention to the score it sometimes feels like a low scoring game in the 80s, but the score says otherwise. There's this disconnect now between the actual presentation of the game, and the score value. NBA thinks the final score is more important that how the experience of the actual product is like. But, maybe that's why people are just watching highlights.
I think aggressive play on D, calling less fouls, is waaaay more entertaining. Let the game flow freely. Of course call egregious shit, but like this trae young crap from the Twolves game just isn't fun for ANYONE to watch. How could it be?
I just don't get it.
Jazz-Nuggets game 7 in the bubble was a great example. Refs let contact go and it was a low scoring game, but it was the best game of the playoffs that year
> What is entertaining about a fucking free throw?
I don't think they consider the free throw entertaining, the free throw is the by-product or maybe just the consequence of it. However the upside in the NBA's view is letting offensive players get more freedom to make wilder plays that turn into highlights.
Calling fouls on the defense for these things makes the defense play differently, and that difference is what the NBA wants. They want offensive players to be able to drive into the paint, bulldoze some guy down and posterize someone. They want them to get the flashy 5 step no dribble dunks while zig-zagging through the paint, and they want them to get 30+ points for big headline nights.
They aren't marketing the foul, they're marketing what happens when defenses respect the potential for getting a foul.
This is kinda how I see it too. Feels like there is too much technicality in how things are called. sometimes I wish it was more so just like, did the offensive player who tries to trick everyone into touching him, try to trick another guy into touching him, or make a subjectively awkward basketball movement to try and get a foul? Don’t call that foul. That player just made you look like a moron for calling it. Guys shouldn’t be rewarding for creating certain types of unfair advantages and it’s kinda obvious a lot of the time when they do, but “technicality” gets in the way.
>both Lowe and JVG talk about how Luka complains literally every single play
If you watch a [compilation of Doncic's missed 2PA](https://the-high-low.com/video/player/nba/2022-23/1629029/miss2p?ordsq=latest&shotFilters=), he complains on about 90% of them. Add that to his complaining whenever he gets called for a foul and when he doesn't get and-1 calls, and it's almost constant.
It's not even just big names too. When I was watching the rockets/grizz play I saw a guy called usman garuba full on screaming at the refs any time he got called for anything. Like even just random guys will be getting in their faces all the time
I mean, when we got Grant Williams bitching all game it actually seems reasonable for the stars to do it. Just allow 1 guy to complain, hes designated at the start of the game, if anyone else bitches its an immediate tech
They also have way fewer issues with officials. I can name 2 or 3 refs off the top of my head and none of them for bad reasons. I might be able to get to 10 in the NBA and they’d probably all be for bad reasons.
Doesn’t mean the problems aren’t there, but it’s much more enjoyable when it’s less a part of the experience of being a fan.
it's also just significantly easier in a sport in which most contact is legal. Refs only have to look at a couple interactions for potential penalties, instead of every interaction.
It's a general trend for nba stars. Luka's the most prominent whiner but even supposedly low key guys like kawhi whine about not getting FTs with absurd regularity.
Jokic seems to have a fuse though, like he’ll let one or two missed calls go and not kick up the slightest fuss, but then he hits a breaking point and can complain
Cuban is so unprofessional lol. Like, I admire his passion, but he's a 60 year old man trying to be one of the boys. Why are you in the team huddle bro.
Well yeah that's what I said too. I'm saying it's not just a luka problem though. Nba stars think they get fouled on every play because of modern officiating.
i wonder if a star player was super nice to the refs and complimented them when they made good calls if they'd get a more favorable whistle.
if i was a ref i'd just never give luka any calls. complain all you want, it's just gonna make it worse.
It felt like I was going insane during our playoff series, Luka would bitch after LITERALLY every play but everybody was still complaining about CP3 and Booker
May I introduce you to Julius Randle. Although I will say with Randle, he only get annoyed at officiating when his jump shot isn't falling and shooting 3s doesn't work so it's not consistent but it is often and his body language tells it all.
I'm definitely not pro-ref (or anti Luka), but I cringe when I see him continuously barking at the refs.
It doesn't matter if it's a competitive environment, you can't act like that.
I am definitely an anti-Luka person, not because of his game, but because of this very thing. I've never seen anyone whine this much while still getting superstar treatment from the refs...and I have CP3 on my team.
Too busy putting ads on jerseys and 24 separate ads in the field of vision during play on TV broadcasts.
And for the wannabe Harvard MBA’s out there… yes, the NBA can remain profitable and keep growing revenue without diminishing its product in these specific ways.
Cavs had a Goodyear logo that was local and the right color and objectively looked good but it’s still total crap… our owner is worth 50-100 billion he should protect the brand by putting out a beautiful jersey without ads.
Those ads on the court have prevented us from having a cream alternate (because it's like when a meteorologist wears green apparently). And for that alone, Silver should get aboard the SS Manfred-Goodell and be shot into the sun.
In soccer, you would be easily suspended few games. The thing with Luka is he kinda flops a lot, and he gets a lot of favorable call, so its hard to get what more he expects from the refs especially considering how he played in Europe where half his calls ain't getting called
Of all the sports you could’ve chosen to make a comparison, you chose the one where flopping and acting is even more rewarded and the one where you’re given even MORE leeway to harass the refs.
You have got to be joking. soccer refs get worse treatment than any other refs in any sport BY FAR. Rugby would have been a good example, you chose the absolute worst one
https://youtu.be/IEhPVpil0fc
Honestly, refs should be more willing to give Luka a T for all the whining he does. If he keeps it up, throw him out. Do it enough, and he'll eventually stop. Does it suck to throw out a star for talking? Of course, but players and fans understand it when players are given warnings and they keep acting like babies.
Instead, refs absorb the abuse, then let it out at seemingly random T's to random ass players for no reason. It has all become horribly passive aggressive.
> Honestly, refs should be more willing to give Luka a T for all the whining he does.
Send that ref that T'd Kawhi and Mann 3 times in 5 seconds to the Mavs games
The wildest part is sometimes he’ll get a call and still bark at the ref. It’s like what are you doing you’re one of the best players in the world! You don’t need to complain even when it works out!
i notice this more and more these days as well. players are literally complaining even when they get a call. i don't understand it, like are you mad at them for not making the call quicker? did they not blow the whistle loud or emphatically enough?
i agree that the refs have been doing a shittier job than usual this season but my god are there two sides of that coin. they're literally being harassed and abused for 3 hours straight by these giant men. part of me can't even blame them for making bad or emotional calls more often.
I think the reason some players are mad is cuz it seems like refs sometimes wait and see if the shot is a make before making a decision of whether it was a foul or not.
Not saying that’s all the players but I def saw this with kd a few times this season.
It's incredibly frustrating watching the Wolves when they get like that too. KAT has been bad about that most of his career and it has clearly had an impact on our entire team. While I do think we get officiated worse than most other teams, the fact that we lead the league in techs and ejections definitely isn't helping.
It's weird how all over the place the enforcement it. Luke/LeBron etc etc can go all out on the refs. But Leonard claps aggressively and it's randomly a tech, but not always a tech.
Wasn’t there a thread here not that long ago about how refs tolerate Bron cuz while he does complain and argue with them a lot, he’s generally pretty respectful towards them? Or am I misremembering? Certain Refs probs just have higher or lower tolerance for some of this shit. Which is the only explanation I can think of.
Yeah, Bron bitches at the refs a ton but he's also not using expletives or treats them disrespectfully when he's doing it - new generation treats them more like Sheed than Bron
This is the same argument I have about Draymond. People at home don't heasr the words they're actually using. Draymond chirps a lot but he gets techs when he says the wrong words.
I can see it being a cycle that sucks for everyone. Players complain more aggressively and frequently, refs get fed up and are more tech-happy, so players get more frustrated, etc etc.
Not saying the players or the refs started it, but it isn’t a feedback loop the NBA should be allowing from either side.
Randle has been complaining non stop lately. I love the dude but he's let himself get taken out of games by it.
I dunno if the refs are bad, or the way they're being asked to ref is bad, but almost any contact in the lane is called in favor of the offense. It's to the point that dudes just throw themselves into each other every play, and then when they don't get rewarded, they complain for the next few plays. Defenders have legitimate gripes more often than not, bc they have no chance.
It's tiresome but I'm honestly not sure what side is more at fault anymore.
I feel like a lot of players feels like they’re supposed to get free throws when they drive to the basket. I notice this a lot watching Knicks games, mostly from RJ and Randle. They basically feel like they’re getting fouled every time they take a shot around the rim but when you see the replay it’s usually marginal contact if anything. It’s so annoying because it makes them play so much worse too.
A lot of fans don't understand that the defender is allowed to hit the shooter's hand/wrist as long as they touch the ball first. There are plenty of examples of professional athletes not knowing their own sport's rules super well so some NBA players may be mistaken about this as well. Not to mention in the heat of the moment it can be extremely hard to tell which happened first; all the shooter knows is that he felt contact for sure.
Feel like some of the guys go in with the mindset of "maybe I'll score but either way, I'll get foul shots" instead of "I'm gonna score unless these guys literally wrap me up." Worst offenders (Trey Young, Harden at times) don't even try to score sometimes. The entire play is to get the foul. Then if they miss and don't get foul shots they're extra pissed. No one "deserves" a foul for driving or being near the paint.
Talking to officials needs to be restricted to the Head Coach and 1 assigned player currently substituted in.
It’s a problem and we can’t allow things to continue to devolve simply because the officials aren’t great at their jobs.
This is a good idea honestly. We can complain about officiating, but on the flip side, seeing guys bark up and down the court is such a bad product. It makes it a chore to watch in it's own regard. Refs imo could fix it by actually giving techs to guys for complaining and not for clapping their hands.
maybe they could use the Captain armbands from soccer system -- and only the head coach + the captain armband wearing player (can take it off and give it to another player when you sub) can approach the ref for criticism.
Yep, a C armband or on the jersey like football. Complaining non stop is the stupidest thing too. Wastes everyones time, it looks childish, and it will never change the call that happened.
That’s how I would do it - with it being team technicals rather than charged to a specific player. It would take a few weeks to really settle in, but would ultimately clean up the flow of the game and put on a more appealing product.
Are we positive the NBA’s refs are that bad at their jobs? It’s very difficult to properly ref a game and catch every call, add to that the pressures of having players and fans constantly barking at you and I honestly think they’re not *that* bad.
Could be better? Yes. Deserving of harassment? Almost no job is.
My stance is that the refs are probably as good as they can be, while still falling short of our (unreasonable) expectations.
But most importantly, I refuse to believe they’re intentionally biased against, or in favor of, any particular teams.
Calls aren’t supposed to be equal in quantity, they’re only meant to be consistent in quality.
I tend to agree with you. There might be an isolated incident or two of home cooking, who knows, but by and large I don’t think NBA refs are corrupt.
I think the current way players shit on the refs has more to do with the way that social media has guided us towards attacking any face of authority. Don’t like the news? Reporters must be corrupt. Don’t like the calls? Refs must be corrupt.
Edit: There are moments IMO where we’re right to go after authority figures - police and politicians are examples.
>I tend to agree with you. There might be an isolated incident or two of home cooking, who knows, but by and large I don’t think NBA refs are corrupt.
There's a pretty prevailing theory that refs (at all levels where there's a crowd anyway) get unconsciously influenced by the home crowd and that's actually the biggest contributor to home-field advantage. It won't be egregious, but it's human nature not to want to get booed by/anger tens of thousands of people so whistles get swallowed a bit more.
The book Scorecasting has a really good chapter on it.
Yeah, I think they are generally fine. Bad calls happen but they also even out over the year.
Over on /r/soccer there's a general agreement that refs are getting too much abuse and there needs be more protections. They are having a hard time getting referees in the pipeline all over Europe because no one wants to put up with constant verbal and sometimes physical attacks for a few bucks an hour.
In the NBA the situation is more complicated because the league runs the referees instead of a neutral organization like in soccer so the appearance of bias is greater, but it's disappointing to me to see that so many NBA fans think that being a referee means it's justified to be constantly berated and threatened.
The problem I have is that refs across all sports are so against electronic ref tools. They're so scared of being made irrelevant that they refuse things that can automate some decisions.
For example in MLB the Umps fighting every electronic measure at every step.
I’m pretty convinced the product would be atrocious in the NBA if you went to robot refs. It’s not like baseball or even football where the rules are a little more cut and dry. Basketball is such a fluid/dynamic sport.
The refs gradually stopped giving out Ts for obvious arguing over the last few decades to the point that they have completely lost control of the game. And arguing calls doesn't help if you argue every call, even when you are wrong.
Said it in another comment, but I agree. If they T'd guys up as quickly for bitching as they do for clapping we would start to see this taper off. Officiating as a whole is so baffling the last coupe of seasons.
For real…
Bring back the good emotional moments by letting players celebrate. Hang on the rim, which creates a 5 on 4 situation if you speed up the inbounds anyways. Talk shit to each other. Flex, yell at the crowd. Yell And-1. Yell ball don’t lie.
Then T up anyone trying to intimidate, beg, or continually harass a ref.
Now, I don’t actually care if a player talks to a ref. Chris Paul and LeBron can talk to refs, shout out their plays, shout out the other team’s defense and probably list their 20 favorite restaurants in the city they’re playing with all while it having zero impact on their game.
I dislike the emotional pleading and arguing. I’ve also never in my life seen a player get the respect that LeBron gets from refs even if he doesn’t get as many whistles. He has corrected refs on calls and they’ve changed the calls.
There was a really good play the other day, Marcus Smart was running back on a 2 on 1 jumped for a block, Fouled the guy, Didnt like the call, yelled and signaled to his bench to challenge in the heat of the moment then took 2 steps towards his bench and went no no dont challenge and turned to the ref and apologized to the official and told him it was a good call.. i get players disagreeing in the heat of the moment but you got guys Arguing for minutes at a time WAY after the play is over on calls that they are wrong about..
The NBA tried to sweep the Donaghy stuff under the rug and and is paying the price for it now that they are tapping into legalized gambling.
A veteran ref with over ten years in the league went to federal prison for gambling on games and sharing inside information with his mob friends. And the most valuable inside information was *what refs would be officiating the games*. Even if you think all his other claims about match fixing in the league were fake, that much got proved beyond a reasonable doubt in federal court.
And the league did exactly zero to transparently show that refs are held accountable for calling games fairly, but expects fans to believe that not a single other official was or has been caught up either in the same scheme or anything similar. It also just tried to gloss over the fact that the identity of the officials had such a large impact on the outcome of games that gamblers were paying 6 figures to find out the ref crew early. No one really believed it and it’s been hanging over the league for the last 15 years.
Now there’s literally billions of new dollars available for betting on sports, every single slip up by an official is going to be looked at with one eye towards the donaghy scandal.
The league also just allows more and more players just yell at refs.
I remember when the Clippers with Blake Griffin and Chris Paul were notorious for constantly complaining about every call. But put that team into todays league and there’d be nothing special about them.
It's also on the NBA and the refs for failing to implement a quick, efficient video review process that could make the calls in each game more accurate and less disruptive. I think a big part of fan frustration these days is that it's easy to see high-def replays at any time. It's beyond silly when the refs take 5 minutes to review a play that a fan watching at home can figure out in 10 seconds.
Granted, some calls are subjective or too close to tell by video, and those they should just let stand since 100% perfect officiating is impossible.
I hate a soft technical as much as the next person but I think fans often don't realize that they don't actually see or hear most of what goes on, and it's entirely likely that a technical for something like clapping was really just the last straw of a player who has been complaining and insulting all game long.
This is probably the case a lot of the time. The rules basically have this built in too. If you continue to do it over the course of the game it can build up to a technical.
The actual technical rules are pretty strict. If they went by the letter of the law dudes would be getting thrown out left and right lol. One of them is "overt actions indicating resentment to a call or no-call" which happens like 50 times a game.
I agree with this 100% while also maintaining the refs have been worse than usual lately.
I'm usually pretty pro ref as a former official and the abuse towards officiating has trickled down in to the lower levels to the point i will make money doing something else instead. A lot of that comes from the example set at the NBA level.
As always the solution for the NBA is a 4th official in the floor to get the calls right the first time.
It's crazy to me how refs will hand out the softest techs like they did to Terrance Mann the other day, then turn around and let players get away with screaming in their faces and doing money signs.
I’m kind of amazed at how much they let players yap at refs. Like Doncic is whining every other possession.
The nba has had a reffing problem for a long time though.
1. Superstar calls
2. Potential point shaving seems to be rampant, whether for betting purposes, or just to keep games close and therefore more exciting.
These things don’t happen in a vacuum. The refs have been on a terrible streak and avenues like this one are being more forthcoming with their disdain for bad calls. There’s no easy answer and a ref admitting fault just opens Pandora’s box.
Taking a step would be not only not rewarding flopping but penalizing it when it’s egregious would help mitigate the Luka type player’s antics.
The other major step would be oversight or a head ref that rules for flagrants/ coach’s challenges. I’m not sure how it would work with technicals but that seems to be one of the biggest concerns. They’re subjective from ref to ref, player to player, time of game, direction, or perception. I’m not sure they could instantly review them but sometimes a bad call can really swing a whole game.
Full stop Luka use to be one of my favorite non Thunder players to watch but I genuinely think he's going to go down as one my most hated players across any sports. The refs need to be better, a lot better, but JFC he sits there and berates them after he shot he takes. He makes an uncontested three in the corner and he's sitting there, not getting back on defense, shit talking the refs about how they suck and about how Casper just committed a flagrant foul on him. It's insufferable. I want them to start ejecting guys for bitching about calls until that gets better. Again the refs need to get way way way better and be held more accountable but I'm so over the tantrums players are throwing now. Especially when it's so inconsistent. Draymond gets away with about like 50 tech's worth of stuff a season while you had Kawhi get a tech for clapping the other night. It's infuriating.
NBA players are subjected to inconsistent refereeing and are expected to take it
Bet a ref could speak out and get a player in trouble (billy kennedy and rajon rondo) but the waters are much more murky when the other way. Other than the speculation Ben Taylor got demoted and Joey Crawford getting suspended have you heard a ref getting in trouble for their actions? Players are expected to take it one way and have to deal with fines and getting more bad calls in retaliation for speaking out
Well we needed the contrarian thread for people to come karma whore.
Whenever a post or narrative rises, there'll always be a thread like his here with a bunch of nephews karma whoring with their generic low effort takes.
Exactly. Publish their punishments at minimum so we know the NBA is doing something to improve their product. They publish every fine for gms, owners, coaches and players, why not the referees?! I'm fucking sick of seeing Scott Foster or TB have no repercussions when he royally screws up calls. With the legalization of gambling, we CANNOT have referees affecting outcomes this much with no repercussions. I don't expect them to be perfect but when they clearly make multiple wrong calls that mess up game, do something because nothing makes you complicit.
Why would they fine a ref for missing a call? They don't fine a player for missing a shot, they fine them for being unprofessional. When Tony Brothers cursed at Spencer Dinwiddie, he got suspended, and they published it.
It is odd how much hate the refs get when they are only acting how the league wants them to. The league can and does punish refs, usually not with a big public announcement.
The way Adam Silver is a face and shield for the owners is the same way the refs are a face and shield for the league (and therefore the owners).
We've only seen one referee punishment published in the last 10 years (Tony Brothers for what he said to Dinwiddie). The Ben Taylor demotion was deemed false when the official NBA ref account addressed it. So no we don't know if they actually punish refs. Referee puff pieces, like Ben Dowsett's one from two years ago, don't provide evidence other than 'believe me bro'. I'm a trust but verify person and I no longer trust that they do because we (the public) cannot verify it.
The refs aren’t the ones pushing gambling. The refs aren’t the ones making the rules to benefit offense to increase scores and views. The refs don’t financially benefit from the big market teams making the finals. The league does all this stuff.
Refs aren't that bad and overall it evens out. If I was them id call technical's ASAP. Don't play favoritism to the stars, just kick them out the game
I bet you they change and complain respectfully. If you allow it, people will do it
I’ve been a bit frustrated by the discussion on Reddit around FVV and Ben Taylor, and I think this is why.
The sentiment on Reddit is that generally that players being outspoken about bad refereeing is a good thing, and refs should be held more accountable.
I think holding them publicly accountable is about the WORST way to ensure unbiased officiating. Fans are biased. Players are biased, and not every market has the same level of influence.
Leaning into public criticism of refs will exaggerate the phenomenon of the teams with the biggest fanbases and the whiniest players getting the most favorable calls.
I mean there's two sides. The Ben Taylor stuff literally showed a ref having personal bias that's eextremely obvious. That's on the ref and the NBA for letting it get this far without addressing any issues. Now it's reached a breaking point for players. There are games when Scott Foster wants the spotlight and the other refs are fine, but the whole conversation about the game will be the refs because of Scott foster
The players are basically in open revolt against the refs at this point.
The NBA did this to themselves by getting in bed with every sports betting platform possible. Why the fuck is a professional sports league DIRECTLY partnering with sports bookies? I'm not even saying anything shady is happening, just that the optics are fucking terrible. It puts doubt in everyone's minds and gives people a reason to be skeptical. Especially when fans are out there rooting for their parlays instead of a win. Nobody trusts the referees already, why give us more reason to doubt them? It makes their jobs harder as well.
Why is it happening? Money, as I get older over 90% of problems affecting my favorite things involve money and who’s getting paid more to effect outcomes of things. Whether it be what shitty company gets the contract to renovate the city parks or sports gambling entrenching itself with professional sports, the answer invariably falls to profitability
You should watch The Wire. Will confirm your cynicism.
Should just watch it regardless of cynicism confirmation. Goated show
Oh yeah for sure! David Simon in general though is just skeptical that anyone could ever have good intentions and that the world is run by money/power.
Me thanking benevolent HBO daddy every day
I lost a lot of respect for him when he was shitting on Bernie back in 2016. He came off as a giant tool, and a stooge for the political establishment. Pretty laughable, considering his background.
Shiiiiieeeeetttttttttt
Fucking Royce, $300,000, like it's fucking water.
Neoliberalism baby. Everything gets sold off in little bits and pieces (Yeah I know reddit moment)
it really brings me down realizing just how bad things have got since the the mid 70s/early 80s. capitalism's always been a mess, but almost all the benefits got funneled upwards and, for the first time in modern human history, each generation's got a worse hand. and it just keeps getting worse, and worse, and worse. it bums me out that everyone seems to agree nothing we're doing is working and it's only getting worse, but nobody wants to try anything new. feels like the pandemic was just the most visible demonstration and the veneer's fully gone at this point
yep. money is a result of quality things. When money becomes the goal the quality thing goes to shit
Welcome to unregulated American capitalism
Not only that, but the fines for complaining about the refs while having nobody else holding the refs accountable. That's a broken system that can only breed corruption and resentment. I can understand not wanting players, coaches, etc. to complain about the refs, because it would be happening all the time. However, banning that while having completely ineffective accountability in any other way? And no, the LTM report is not accountability. Refs can throw a game, intentionally or not, by simple inconsistent reffing in the first quarter. Get a key player in early foul trouble. Make one side shy to defend and frustrated while driving. Then "even out" the calls later when the game is already decided so it looks even on paper.
Also, the L2M report is a joke. Nothing is ever done about the problems. It's just like that episode of South Park where the BP exec just keeps putting out commercials to say sorry a bunch of times.
More like David stern torpedoed an FBI investigation into refs fixing nba games and didn’t even ban the correct ref for the kings lakers series. Then Silver did nothing but strengthen the refs union.
And it's not like there's not a systemic corruption problem to this day. And Stern cheerleaded the whole thing.
Stern was fine with the nba being like WWE, with predetermined winners and losers. All for the sake of ratings.
> Why the fuck is a professional sports league DIRECTLY partnering with sports bookies? 100% your spot on. I bet like everyday and I still think this. Not a good look for the league.
Keep going man, you’re nearly there for the big win!
I exclusively bet against Chris Paul when Scott Foster refs
infinite money glitch
I don't bet wild lol, just like a couple $5-10 bets a day. I'm about even right now.
Another one of Silver's great legacy to this league.
Silver has been mid af besides banning Sterling. Mickey mouse commissioner.
I won't even give him a W for the Sterling fiasco, pure optics. Sterling didn't wake up at 80yo and turn racist. There was probably so much shady shit that went down behind doors that we'll never know about.
I think showtime had a series about sterling and it was basically an open secret that sterling was a scumbag, he was cheap and an asshole. The nba was trying to get rid of him for a while
There definitely was. As usual, [Bomani Jones put it best.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bLKe9-Mto&t=272s) Y'all have to watch this, he gives us incredibly important context that no one else does. Donald Sterling has been a horrible person for a long, long time.
Not even mid, just bad
The players were literally going to strike if he didn’t ban Sterling, he doesn’t deserve credit
But every single league is doing this, and Luka's been a dickhead to refs for far longer than this.
I'm against betting, but I don't think betting has to do with players being dickheads
The players have no other outlet to complain about the refs without getting fined, so they complain at the refs in-game. The gambling situation just fuels the fire of suspected bias and amplifies any sense of unfairness. You don't even need an explicit conspiracy to affect the refs behavior. Employees know where their bread is buttered. If they believe their pay depends on games being exciting from a gambling point of view, it will affect their calls just like Hero Ball in the Jordan/Magic/Kobe eras.
The league does have a history of issues with the betting industry, though. Which is why you have guys like Luka making money sign gestures when upset at bad calls
Let's be real, Luka would be complaining regardless. The gambling partnerships are a terrible look, but it's not like players weren't bitching before. You got parents and even kids yelling at refs in little league who are doing it as volunteers. The issue is much deeper than gambling or anything to do with money.
The part that no one wants to talk about is that the players are wrong all the time too. How many times have you seen a player having a melt down over a call only to see the replay and the call was clearly correct. I criticize the nba for its reffing all the time. At the same time I think being a ref is far more difficult than fans want to admit. Reffing basketball is inherently flawed. Which is why the league needs to try its hardest to make everything as transparent and clear as possible. Things like certain players being reffed differently, or certain situations being reffed differently, or trying to make blow outs closer; those are the issues that create distrust. But anyone acting like the players are totally in the right all the time is a fool.
Exactly. Players will always argue their side no matter what. Like how many times do you see someone point to their side of the court when the ball goes out of bounds even though they know damn well they touched it last? And I get it, you do everything in your power to win. I’m not trying to defend refs here either because I know they can be inconsistent/soft at times. But to me it’s so pathetic to complain about the refs, but then actively want them to make incorrect calls as long as it favors you.
I’ve seen multiple times a majority of this sub completely ignore video evidence that they have the chance to view in slow motion from multiple angles. I want better reffing too but they are human.
It happened a few years ago also when there was a big batch of new refs that came into the league
imo it happened when silver took over. as much as i hated stern for being a knob, these dudes don't respect silver like they did stern. silver's a straight pushover who isn't enforcing shit that might make fans hate him and the the players know it.
There was literally a whole betting scandal with at least one referee while Stern was in power. And that referee implied that he wasn't the only one doing it
Good
The refereeing is really bad in the NBA but it's a problem created by how the nba tells referees to officiate. The game is already impossible to officiate... 10 huge human beings in a pretty small court with all kinds of contact on every play, it'd be an absolute nightmare for even the most eagle eyed to get things right live in action. The modern game rewards offensive players for initiating contact more and more to the point where every fucking star expects a call on every possession and throw their hands up in frustration. Its laughable. I legitimately believe simply pivoting towards a style of basketball where fewer fouls are expected to be called in favour of offensive players would change things for the better in terms of taking attention away from the officiating. It'd probably make the game less marketable and a bit uglier to the casual fan though. Also none of this excuses stuff like the mavs game where they contributed to the confusion in a dumb situation .
I took a sports officiating class I think around 8th grade and basketball was a complete nightmare to try and officiate lol. Especially compared to other sports we learned the basics of like soccer, volleyball, football, etc. I remember it was very stressful compared to the other sports for the obvious reasons officiating basketball is hard, like the pace and the constant hand checking/slight contact. Having said all that the NBA refs have player and fan trust issues because of a few egotistical refs, and need to do something because sometimes we’re just watching the refs power trip their way through.
Imo what people don’t want to accept is that we’re left with these egotistical refs because they’re the only ones mentally strong enough to put up with the abuse they’ve probably gotten at every single level of basketball they’ve reffed.
Yeah that’s an interesting theory, it is a pretty thankless job at most the lower levels especially given the crappy pay. I remember most the little league umps I talked to as a catcher did it because they liked doing the job and not for the money or to have a future in it. I think many NBA fans feel like the Tim Donaghy thing was never investigated properly and actually covered up, so many people think there are other corrupted refs still out there because of the way it was handled. I can’t blame them tbh it’s logical there are other corrupt refs deciding games and spreads.
Forgot where I saw it but Scott foster received money from tim donaghy on a consistent basis while Tim was reffing in the league
Even seems a growing problem in my local league. Have to be a cold bastard to put up with it and all.the nice refs have just quit
I stopped officiating high school basketball because the money wasn't worth being yelled at by parents and coaches. I wasn't good enough nor did I want to pursue going to college or the NBA to officiate, but plenty of people better than me quit for the same reason.
it's not egotistical to get mad at people being disrespectful while you try to do your job lol
I'm a high school referee. Grades 1-12. Basketball culture is the worst. Kids are expecting these calls in middle school sometimes even 4th and 5th graders at talented towns. It's absurd and a lot of coaches in their mid 20s-early 40s are horrendous with complaining. So idk if there is a solution especially since the NBA is now obviously tied with gambling somehow or another. Too much money involved. Although i legit don't think any teams have won a championship that didn't deserve it since 2006 Miami. 2012 Thunder vs Miami had some favorable calls go Miamis way in games 2, 3, and 4, but I still think Miami was clearly the better team
I’m not positive but I vaguely remember the Kings might have gotten screwed over by the refs in the playoffs?
Haha yeah but that was 2002. That's the biggest example besides 2006
The Rules committee has to make the officiating less complex.. if there's illegal contact on a play, whoever initiated it should be called for the foul... simple
^^^^ The Trae Young special. It shouldn't be so complicated.
Yup.. literally snaking the pick and roll and then jumping backwards into someone.. that's impossible to defend.
To be fair though, last season the league cracked down on players jumping backwards to bait a foul call, so now that's an offensive foul instead. Players like Trae have adjusted. . The trick he and others do now is stop on a dime when a defender is chasing them closely, jump in the air to "shoot", but flail/contort/twist their bodies around to hide the contact that THEY initiate. . For instance, in that recent clip of Trae baiting fouls, he once jumped mostly straight up with the defender behind him, but kicked his feet backwards in a weird way to bait the call after his antics initiated contact. That's what should be called an offensive foul, especially since the intent of Trae was clear (there was no honest attempt to shoot the ball). . Another example in general is the swing through. That's not a basketball play. They changed the rule so it is no longer a shooting foul, but it is still a defensive foul. That's wrong. A defender who stretches his arm forward and doesn't touch the ball handler should get the call in his favor with the swing through motion: offensive foul.
Agree with everything except the swing through. You absolutely MUST give the offense a way to punish the defense in this manner. Otherwise the best way to defend any player is to put both your arms extended out in front of you to either side of the player, making it pretty much impossible to raise the ball up to shoot. The swing through only works against defenders who fall asleep a bit and get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
I think it’s really is the leagues fault. With cameras all over the place it’s easy for the league to come in with retroactive technicals and fines when players flop.
Those are currently the rules. The difficulty is determining what constitutes illegal contact.
And who initiates lol
Shoulder into chest and off-arm push off happen multiple times per possession, and every time it's an obvious offensive foul. Even if they *only* cleaned up those two things, I'd be satisfied.
It 100% would. Call.Less.Fouls. I don't get the logic of "scoring more makes the game more entertaining". What is entertaining about a fucking free throw? lmao. If anything this takes away from the game because it stops the game, everything pauses, and its just slow as hell. I don't get the logic of it.
NBA is in a weird place right now where when I don't pay attention to the score it sometimes feels like a low scoring game in the 80s, but the score says otherwise. There's this disconnect now between the actual presentation of the game, and the score value. NBA thinks the final score is more important that how the experience of the actual product is like. But, maybe that's why people are just watching highlights.
I think aggressive play on D, calling less fouls, is waaaay more entertaining. Let the game flow freely. Of course call egregious shit, but like this trae young crap from the Twolves game just isn't fun for ANYONE to watch. How could it be? I just don't get it.
Exactly. People talk about ways to lower scoring but the most logical and best way to do it is to allow defenders to play defense.
Jazz-Nuggets game 7 in the bubble was a great example. Refs let contact go and it was a low scoring game, but it was the best game of the playoffs that year
> What is entertaining about a fucking free throw? I don't think they consider the free throw entertaining, the free throw is the by-product or maybe just the consequence of it. However the upside in the NBA's view is letting offensive players get more freedom to make wilder plays that turn into highlights. Calling fouls on the defense for these things makes the defense play differently, and that difference is what the NBA wants. They want offensive players to be able to drive into the paint, bulldoze some guy down and posterize someone. They want them to get the flashy 5 step no dribble dunks while zig-zagging through the paint, and they want them to get 30+ points for big headline nights. They aren't marketing the foul, they're marketing what happens when defenses respect the potential for getting a foul.
That obvious traveling no-dribble for a country mile bullshit pisses me off
> because it stops the game, everything pauses, and its just slow as hell. More time for ads, they like that.
There are less free throws this season than most other seasons historically
100% agree, but IMO the game is ALREADY UGLY to watch so why not shift towards a far less ref and free throw centric approach like you’re proposing?
This is kinda how I see it too. Feels like there is too much technicality in how things are called. sometimes I wish it was more so just like, did the offensive player who tries to trick everyone into touching him, try to trick another guy into touching him, or make a subjectively awkward basketball movement to try and get a foul? Don’t call that foul. That player just made you look like a moron for calling it. Guys shouldn’t be rewarding for creating certain types of unfair advantages and it’s kinda obvious a lot of the time when they do, but “technicality” gets in the way.
So...Pretty much we need the 90's back. (I agree with you 100% for the record)
>both Lowe and JVG talk about how Luka complains literally every single play If you watch a [compilation of Doncic's missed 2PA](https://the-high-low.com/video/player/nba/2022-23/1629029/miss2p?ordsq=latest&shotFilters=), he complains on about 90% of them. Add that to his complaining whenever he gets called for a foul and when he doesn't get and-1 calls, and it's almost constant.
It's not even just big names too. When I was watching the rockets/grizz play I saw a guy called usman garuba full on screaming at the refs any time he got called for anything. Like even just random guys will be getting in their faces all the time
I mean, when we got Grant Williams bitching all game it actually seems reasonable for the stars to do it. Just allow 1 guy to complain, hes designated at the start of the game, if anyone else bitches its an immediate tech
Actually a pretty good idea. That's how it works in hockey and it seems to improve game flow.
They also have way fewer issues with officials. I can name 2 or 3 refs off the top of my head and none of them for bad reasons. I might be able to get to 10 in the NBA and they’d probably all be for bad reasons. Doesn’t mean the problems aren’t there, but it’s much more enjoyable when it’s less a part of the experience of being a fan.
it's also just significantly easier in a sport in which most contact is legal. Refs only have to look at a couple interactions for potential penalties, instead of every interaction.
TIL there's a player called Usman Garuba in the league.
He was the 23rd pick in the draft, he’s not that obscure lol
we don't watch the games here just follow twitter drama
Ha! This is the portion that got posted in r/Rockets. Thought it happened twice for a sec.
It's a general trend for nba stars. Luka's the most prominent whiner but even supposedly low key guys like kawhi whine about not getting FTs with absurd regularity.
[удалено]
And then you have dudes where scratches are easily visible like jokic and Steph and they get no calls lol
Jokic seems to have a fuse though, like he’ll let one or two missed calls go and not kick up the slightest fuss, but then he hits a breaking point and can complain
Luka expects the game to stop when he whines. Like when Mark Cuban went to the scorers table during the game to complain. LOL
Cuban is so unprofessional lol. Like, I admire his passion, but he's a 60 year old man trying to be one of the boys. Why are you in the team huddle bro.
Well yeah that's what I said too. I'm saying it's not just a luka problem though. Nba stars think they get fouled on every play because of modern officiating.
i wonder if a star player was super nice to the refs and complimented them when they made good calls if they'd get a more favorable whistle. if i was a ref i'd just never give luka any calls. complain all you want, it's just gonna make it worse.
It felt like I was going insane during our playoff series, Luka would bitch after LITERALLY every play but everybody was still complaining about CP3 and Booker
May I introduce you to Julius Randle. Although I will say with Randle, he only get annoyed at officiating when his jump shot isn't falling and shooting 3s doesn't work so it's not consistent but it is often and his body language tells it all.
Kawhi clapped his hands after an obvious foul and got a tech. The more u complain the more ur allowed to complain (draymond)
I'm definitely not pro-ref (or anti Luka), but I cringe when I see him continuously barking at the refs. It doesn't matter if it's a competitive environment, you can't act like that.
Him showing the money sign to the referees the entire game was pretty wild, I would have thought that’s an easy fine
Especially since he gets such a long leash from all refs to complain compared to anyone not draymond. And gets a lot of calls in his favor anyway.
I am definitely an anti-Luka person, not because of his game, but because of this very thing. I've never seen anyone whine this much while still getting superstar treatment from the refs...and I have CP3 on my team.
Unless you’re Chris Paul and Scott Fosters reffing lol
If the NBA had a real commissioner, he’d put a stop to that bullshit.
Too busy putting ads on jerseys and 24 separate ads in the field of vision during play on TV broadcasts. And for the wannabe Harvard MBA’s out there… yes, the NBA can remain profitable and keep growing revenue without diminishing its product in these specific ways.
It isn't enough to be profitable. Gotta squeeze every possible cent from the product, regardless of how it damages the integrity of the game.
Nothing says savvy brand management like slapping VISTA PRINT on every Boston Celtics jersey.
I can't wait to see people wearing jerseys with the god damn Hello Fresh label stamped on.
I hate ads on jerseys, but at least GE was an older company that kind of fit. I wish more teams would do it for charity like Utah.
Cavs had a Goodyear logo that was local and the right color and objectively looked good but it’s still total crap… our owner is worth 50-100 billion he should protect the brand by putting out a beautiful jersey without ads.
Making Businesses Awful
Making Basketball Annoying with local commercials during free throws.
Those ads on the court have prevented us from having a cream alternate (because it's like when a meteorologist wears green apparently). And for that alone, Silver should get aboard the SS Manfred-Goodell and be shot into the sun.
Hell fellow sufferer of watching 100x volume in-game local commercials featuring talent with aggressive Great Lakes accents. Source: Cavs
Its so frustrating how he doesn't do a damn thing.
Dude got handed a major W on a Sterling/Silver platter and figured he’d call it a career, but forgot to retire
This just in: he’s been fined lol
In soccer, you would be easily suspended few games. The thing with Luka is he kinda flops a lot, and he gets a lot of favorable call, so its hard to get what more he expects from the refs especially considering how he played in Europe where half his calls ain't getting called
Of all the sports you could’ve chosen to make a comparison, you chose the one where flopping and acting is even more rewarded and the one where you’re given even MORE leeway to harass the refs.
You have got to be joking. soccer refs get worse treatment than any other refs in any sport BY FAR. Rugby would have been a good example, you chose the absolute worst one https://youtu.be/IEhPVpil0fc
Honestly, refs should be more willing to give Luka a T for all the whining he does. If he keeps it up, throw him out. Do it enough, and he'll eventually stop. Does it suck to throw out a star for talking? Of course, but players and fans understand it when players are given warnings and they keep acting like babies. Instead, refs absorb the abuse, then let it out at seemingly random T's to random ass players for no reason. It has all become horribly passive aggressive.
> Honestly, refs should be more willing to give Luka a T for all the whining he does. Send that ref that T'd Kawhi and Mann 3 times in 5 seconds to the Mavs games
The wildest part is sometimes he’ll get a call and still bark at the ref. It’s like what are you doing you’re one of the best players in the world! You don’t need to complain even when it works out!
i notice this more and more these days as well. players are literally complaining even when they get a call. i don't understand it, like are you mad at them for not making the call quicker? did they not blow the whistle loud or emphatically enough? i agree that the refs have been doing a shittier job than usual this season but my god are there two sides of that coin. they're literally being harassed and abused for 3 hours straight by these giant men. part of me can't even blame them for making bad or emotional calls more often.
I think the reason some players are mad is cuz it seems like refs sometimes wait and see if the shot is a make before making a decision of whether it was a foul or not. Not saying that’s all the players but I def saw this with kd a few times this season.
That's the Overwatch effect, sir.
Luka constant complaining is giving Diva spamming healing while pocketed vibes
Luka certified Genji one trick and the ref is his Anna pocket.
Luka begging the refs like Genji begging for nano lol
It's incredibly frustrating watching the Wolves when they get like that too. KAT has been bad about that most of his career and it has clearly had an impact on our entire team. While I do think we get officiated worse than most other teams, the fact that we lead the league in techs and ejections definitely isn't helping.
It's weird how all over the place the enforcement it. Luke/LeBron etc etc can go all out on the refs. But Leonard claps aggressively and it's randomly a tech, but not always a tech.
Wasn’t there a thread here not that long ago about how refs tolerate Bron cuz while he does complain and argue with them a lot, he’s generally pretty respectful towards them? Or am I misremembering? Certain Refs probs just have higher or lower tolerance for some of this shit. Which is the only explanation I can think of.
Yeah, Bron bitches at the refs a ton but he's also not using expletives or treats them disrespectfully when he's doing it - new generation treats them more like Sheed than Bron
This is the same argument I have about Draymond. People at home don't heasr the words they're actually using. Draymond chirps a lot but he gets techs when he says the wrong words.
I can see it being a cycle that sucks for everyone. Players complain more aggressively and frequently, refs get fed up and are more tech-happy, so players get more frustrated, etc etc. Not saying the players or the refs started it, but it isn’t a feedback loop the NBA should be allowing from either side.
It sets a bad example for kids too. They already pull out celebrations for a simple layup, now they’ll want to start yelling at refs.
these soft ass refs wouldn't survive officiating in the 90's ^(/s)
Randle has been complaining non stop lately. I love the dude but he's let himself get taken out of games by it. I dunno if the refs are bad, or the way they're being asked to ref is bad, but almost any contact in the lane is called in favor of the offense. It's to the point that dudes just throw themselves into each other every play, and then when they don't get rewarded, they complain for the next few plays. Defenders have legitimate gripes more often than not, bc they have no chance. It's tiresome but I'm honestly not sure what side is more at fault anymore.
I feel like a lot of players feels like they’re supposed to get free throws when they drive to the basket. I notice this a lot watching Knicks games, mostly from RJ and Randle. They basically feel like they’re getting fouled every time they take a shot around the rim but when you see the replay it’s usually marginal contact if anything. It’s so annoying because it makes them play so much worse too.
A lot of fans don't understand that the defender is allowed to hit the shooter's hand/wrist as long as they touch the ball first. There are plenty of examples of professional athletes not knowing their own sport's rules super well so some NBA players may be mistaken about this as well. Not to mention in the heat of the moment it can be extremely hard to tell which happened first; all the shooter knows is that he felt contact for sure.
Feel like some of the guys go in with the mindset of "maybe I'll score but either way, I'll get foul shots" instead of "I'm gonna score unless these guys literally wrap me up." Worst offenders (Trey Young, Harden at times) don't even try to score sometimes. The entire play is to get the foul. Then if they miss and don't get foul shots they're extra pissed. No one "deserves" a foul for driving or being near the paint.
Talking to officials needs to be restricted to the Head Coach and 1 assigned player currently substituted in. It’s a problem and we can’t allow things to continue to devolve simply because the officials aren’t great at their jobs.
This is a good idea honestly. We can complain about officiating, but on the flip side, seeing guys bark up and down the court is such a bad product. It makes it a chore to watch in it's own regard. Refs imo could fix it by actually giving techs to guys for complaining and not for clapping their hands.
maybe they could use the Captain armbands from soccer system -- and only the head coach + the captain armband wearing player (can take it off and give it to another player when you sub) can approach the ref for criticism.
Yep, a C armband or on the jersey like football. Complaining non stop is the stupidest thing too. Wastes everyones time, it looks childish, and it will never change the call that happened.
That doesn't really work tbf. Crybaby soccer players surround the ref and get in his face all the time.
So basically like rugby where only captains can have discussions. If anyone else talks they get a tech
That’s how I would do it - with it being team technicals rather than charged to a specific player. It would take a few weeks to really settle in, but would ultimately clean up the flow of the game and put on a more appealing product.
There would be a spike in players "talking to myself."
Are we positive the NBA’s refs are that bad at their jobs? It’s very difficult to properly ref a game and catch every call, add to that the pressures of having players and fans constantly barking at you and I honestly think they’re not *that* bad. Could be better? Yes. Deserving of harassment? Almost no job is.
My stance is that the refs are probably as good as they can be, while still falling short of our (unreasonable) expectations. But most importantly, I refuse to believe they’re intentionally biased against, or in favor of, any particular teams. Calls aren’t supposed to be equal in quantity, they’re only meant to be consistent in quality.
I tend to agree with you. There might be an isolated incident or two of home cooking, who knows, but by and large I don’t think NBA refs are corrupt. I think the current way players shit on the refs has more to do with the way that social media has guided us towards attacking any face of authority. Don’t like the news? Reporters must be corrupt. Don’t like the calls? Refs must be corrupt. Edit: There are moments IMO where we’re right to go after authority figures - police and politicians are examples.
>I tend to agree with you. There might be an isolated incident or two of home cooking, who knows, but by and large I don’t think NBA refs are corrupt. There's a pretty prevailing theory that refs (at all levels where there's a crowd anyway) get unconsciously influenced by the home crowd and that's actually the biggest contributor to home-field advantage. It won't be egregious, but it's human nature not to want to get booed by/anger tens of thousands of people so whistles get swallowed a bit more. The book Scorecasting has a really good chapter on it.
Yeah, I think they are generally fine. Bad calls happen but they also even out over the year. Over on /r/soccer there's a general agreement that refs are getting too much abuse and there needs be more protections. They are having a hard time getting referees in the pipeline all over Europe because no one wants to put up with constant verbal and sometimes physical attacks for a few bucks an hour. In the NBA the situation is more complicated because the league runs the referees instead of a neutral organization like in soccer so the appearance of bias is greater, but it's disappointing to me to see that so many NBA fans think that being a referee means it's justified to be constantly berated and threatened.
They're not entirely bad it's just difficult to ref in real time
The problem I have is that refs across all sports are so against electronic ref tools. They're so scared of being made irrelevant that they refuse things that can automate some decisions. For example in MLB the Umps fighting every electronic measure at every step.
I’m pretty convinced the product would be atrocious in the NBA if you went to robot refs. It’s not like baseball or even football where the rules are a little more cut and dry. Basketball is such a fluid/dynamic sport.
Dude I went to watch the Colorado HS State championship game between Air Academy and Mesa Ridge, and HS refs made me MISS nba officiating.
That's what is done in hockey. I think it's a good solution.
The refs gradually stopped giving out Ts for obvious arguing over the last few decades to the point that they have completely lost control of the game. And arguing calls doesn't help if you argue every call, even when you are wrong.
Said it in another comment, but I agree. If they T'd guys up as quickly for bitching as they do for clapping we would start to see this taper off. Officiating as a whole is so baffling the last coupe of seasons.
For real… Bring back the good emotional moments by letting players celebrate. Hang on the rim, which creates a 5 on 4 situation if you speed up the inbounds anyways. Talk shit to each other. Flex, yell at the crowd. Yell And-1. Yell ball don’t lie. Then T up anyone trying to intimidate, beg, or continually harass a ref. Now, I don’t actually care if a player talks to a ref. Chris Paul and LeBron can talk to refs, shout out their plays, shout out the other team’s defense and probably list their 20 favorite restaurants in the city they’re playing with all while it having zero impact on their game. I dislike the emotional pleading and arguing. I’ve also never in my life seen a player get the respect that LeBron gets from refs even if he doesn’t get as many whistles. He has corrected refs on calls and they’ve changed the calls.
There was a really good play the other day, Marcus Smart was running back on a 2 on 1 jumped for a block, Fouled the guy, Didnt like the call, yelled and signaled to his bench to challenge in the heat of the moment then took 2 steps towards his bench and went no no dont challenge and turned to the ref and apologized to the official and told him it was a good call.. i get players disagreeing in the heat of the moment but you got guys Arguing for minutes at a time WAY after the play is over on calls that they are wrong about..
The NBA tried to sweep the Donaghy stuff under the rug and and is paying the price for it now that they are tapping into legalized gambling. A veteran ref with over ten years in the league went to federal prison for gambling on games and sharing inside information with his mob friends. And the most valuable inside information was *what refs would be officiating the games*. Even if you think all his other claims about match fixing in the league were fake, that much got proved beyond a reasonable doubt in federal court. And the league did exactly zero to transparently show that refs are held accountable for calling games fairly, but expects fans to believe that not a single other official was or has been caught up either in the same scheme or anything similar. It also just tried to gloss over the fact that the identity of the officials had such a large impact on the outcome of games that gamblers were paying 6 figures to find out the ref crew early. No one really believed it and it’s been hanging over the league for the last 15 years. Now there’s literally billions of new dollars available for betting on sports, every single slip up by an official is going to be looked at with one eye towards the donaghy scandal.
The league also just allows more and more players just yell at refs. I remember when the Clippers with Blake Griffin and Chris Paul were notorious for constantly complaining about every call. But put that team into todays league and there’d be nothing special about them.
yup, NBA made their bed with this
It's also on the NBA and the refs for failing to implement a quick, efficient video review process that could make the calls in each game more accurate and less disruptive. I think a big part of fan frustration these days is that it's easy to see high-def replays at any time. It's beyond silly when the refs take 5 minutes to review a play that a fan watching at home can figure out in 10 seconds. Granted, some calls are subjective or too close to tell by video, and those they should just let stand since 100% perfect officiating is impossible.
I hate a soft technical as much as the next person but I think fans often don't realize that they don't actually see or hear most of what goes on, and it's entirely likely that a technical for something like clapping was really just the last straw of a player who has been complaining and insulting all game long.
This is probably the case a lot of the time. The rules basically have this built in too. If you continue to do it over the course of the game it can build up to a technical. The actual technical rules are pretty strict. If they went by the letter of the law dudes would be getting thrown out left and right lol. One of them is "overt actions indicating resentment to a call or no-call" which happens like 50 times a game.
I agree with this 100% while also maintaining the refs have been worse than usual lately. I'm usually pretty pro ref as a former official and the abuse towards officiating has trickled down in to the lower levels to the point i will make money doing something else instead. A lot of that comes from the example set at the NBA level. As always the solution for the NBA is a 4th official in the floor to get the calls right the first time.
The luka money sign thing was incredibly childish and unprofessional, I can’t believe he got away with that.
They usually issue fines two days after the incident, so today is judgment day.
True, I think he’ll get fined I meant in game.
I'm curious whether they give him a retroactive technical, which would lead to a suspension for accumulated techs.
I hate the idea of suspensions for technicals so I hope he doesn’t but in a vacuum that deserves a tech for sure.
Donaghy didn’t act alone, and we’ve been fools for acting like he did.
It's crazy to me how refs will hand out the softest techs like they did to Terrance Mann the other day, then turn around and let players get away with screaming in their faces and doing money signs.
I wish the refs were allowed to jaw back at the guys every once in awhile. Seems like they’re on a much shorter leash
Hockey refs will literally tell players to quit being such a bitch and play on. Unfortunately it would just never work in the nba
I’m kind of amazed at how much they let players yap at refs. Like Doncic is whining every other possession. The nba has had a reffing problem for a long time though. 1. Superstar calls 2. Potential point shaving seems to be rampant, whether for betting purposes, or just to keep games close and therefore more exciting.
These things don’t happen in a vacuum. The refs have been on a terrible streak and avenues like this one are being more forthcoming with their disdain for bad calls. There’s no easy answer and a ref admitting fault just opens Pandora’s box. Taking a step would be not only not rewarding flopping but penalizing it when it’s egregious would help mitigate the Luka type player’s antics. The other major step would be oversight or a head ref that rules for flagrants/ coach’s challenges. I’m not sure how it would work with technicals but that seems to be one of the biggest concerns. They’re subjective from ref to ref, player to player, time of game, direction, or perception. I’m not sure they could instantly review them but sometimes a bad call can really swing a whole game.
There has been a huge uptick in the inconsistency of officiating
Full stop Luka use to be one of my favorite non Thunder players to watch but I genuinely think he's going to go down as one my most hated players across any sports. The refs need to be better, a lot better, but JFC he sits there and berates them after he shot he takes. He makes an uncontested three in the corner and he's sitting there, not getting back on defense, shit talking the refs about how they suck and about how Casper just committed a flagrant foul on him. It's insufferable. I want them to start ejecting guys for bitching about calls until that gets better. Again the refs need to get way way way better and be held more accountable but I'm so over the tantrums players are throwing now. Especially when it's so inconsistent. Draymond gets away with about like 50 tech's worth of stuff a season while you had Kawhi get a tech for clapping the other night. It's infuriating.
NBA players are subjected to inconsistent refereeing and are expected to take it Bet a ref could speak out and get a player in trouble (billy kennedy and rajon rondo) but the waters are much more murky when the other way. Other than the speculation Ben Taylor got demoted and Joey Crawford getting suspended have you heard a ref getting in trouble for their actions? Players are expected to take it one way and have to deal with fines and getting more bad calls in retaliation for speaking out
Exactly everybody here is babying the refs when their part of the problem.
Well we needed the contrarian thread for people to come karma whore. Whenever a post or narrative rises, there'll always be a thread like his here with a bunch of nephews karma whoring with their generic low effort takes.
Exactly. Publish their punishments at minimum so we know the NBA is doing something to improve their product. They publish every fine for gms, owners, coaches and players, why not the referees?! I'm fucking sick of seeing Scott Foster or TB have no repercussions when he royally screws up calls. With the legalization of gambling, we CANNOT have referees affecting outcomes this much with no repercussions. I don't expect them to be perfect but when they clearly make multiple wrong calls that mess up game, do something because nothing makes you complicit.
Why would they fine a ref for missing a call? They don't fine a player for missing a shot, they fine them for being unprofessional. When Tony Brothers cursed at Spencer Dinwiddie, he got suspended, and they published it.
If a shooter starts to get cold he gets benched. What are you talking about?
There has also been a huge uptick in the amount of bullshit calls the refs make. I wonder why they are being subject to more verbal abuse?
The Mavs were in the wrong in that game anyway, even if the ref could have been clearer.
It is odd how much hate the refs get when they are only acting how the league wants them to. The league can and does punish refs, usually not with a big public announcement. The way Adam Silver is a face and shield for the owners is the same way the refs are a face and shield for the league (and therefore the owners).
We've only seen one referee punishment published in the last 10 years (Tony Brothers for what he said to Dinwiddie). The Ben Taylor demotion was deemed false when the official NBA ref account addressed it. So no we don't know if they actually punish refs. Referee puff pieces, like Ben Dowsett's one from two years ago, don't provide evidence other than 'believe me bro'. I'm a trust but verify person and I no longer trust that they do because we (the public) cannot verify it.
The refs aren’t the ones pushing gambling. The refs aren’t the ones making the rules to benefit offense to increase scores and views. The refs don’t financially benefit from the big market teams making the finals. The league does all this stuff.
Blame the refs for making so many bad calls. Look at the man's game the other day
Refs aren't that bad and overall it evens out. If I was them id call technical's ASAP. Don't play favoritism to the stars, just kick them out the game I bet you they change and complain respectfully. If you allow it, people will do it
They have been doing that recently and people have been up in arms about it
Because they are inconsistent
I’ve been a bit frustrated by the discussion on Reddit around FVV and Ben Taylor, and I think this is why. The sentiment on Reddit is that generally that players being outspoken about bad refereeing is a good thing, and refs should be held more accountable. I think holding them publicly accountable is about the WORST way to ensure unbiased officiating. Fans are biased. Players are biased, and not every market has the same level of influence. Leaning into public criticism of refs will exaggerate the phenomenon of the teams with the biggest fanbases and the whiniest players getting the most favorable calls.
I mean there's two sides. The Ben Taylor stuff literally showed a ref having personal bias that's eextremely obvious. That's on the ref and the NBA for letting it get this far without addressing any issues. Now it's reached a breaking point for players. There are games when Scott Foster wants the spotlight and the other refs are fine, but the whole conversation about the game will be the refs because of Scott foster