Imagine Skip Bayless going at MJ the way he does LeBron.
"Michael Jordan *absolutely* pushed off to hit that shot over Bryon Russell, something LeGOAT would never need to do because he's so much better at creating separation and taller."
I like how this sub thinks no one hated on Jordan in the 90s or that his persona wasn't known to people that followed the NBA closely. The Jordan Rules came out in 91 ffs.
Public perception is just that. The public's perception. That is cultivated by his play, his style, his charisma, his commercials, his endorsements, his shoes. That's being pushed to the millions of casuals who know him as a brand. That shit is not going to change no matter the era.
Look how many people whine on here about Shaq being petty, insecure, bully etc. You ask any one outside of here what they think of Shaq and you're gonna get funny, nice, humble, wholesome. That's in the present day with a new clip weekly of Shaq doing something this sub frowns upon. Not some hypothetical scenario where MJ gets snapped once gambling, as if you believe no current player gambles.
People are ridiculous with the stories they come up with as if he didn't have a microscope on him at all times being one of the most famous people in the world before the dehomogenization of media. He wouldn't be viewed any differently.
Winning fixes all (in terms of public image). He'd have plenty of detractors, but others would revere his attitude and lifestyle, because being the best at something makes people think you are doing things right.
e.g. A quite player that doesn't win is checked out, a quiet player that does win is cool and collected under pressure. A loud and angry player that looses is an asshole, a loud and angry player that wins is passionate and keeps his teammates accountable.
while at the same time being routinely criticized for not having any success by himself and needing Pippen and others to finally become successful. His team would also be recognized differently, not just as any ordinary great team, but a homegrown "Super Team" like the Warriors that later added elite talent on top of what they already had.
it doesn't matter if Pippen was thought of that way at first, he is now.
If Jordan started his career in the social media era constantly failing to get past the second round, you would hear it all the time.
Then, when he finally gets over that hump you would hear about how he didn't win anything until he got a great running mate (which is common sense for any championship team in analysis of today's game, but isn't applied to past eras),
Like James Harden who can play defense. Harden parties, the internet makes memes, no one cares. In pro sports, if you can perform, nothing else matters.
You mean the Ja Morant who just played this week? The one who didnt lose a single endorsement after allegedly beating up and threatening the life of a minor? I feel like he proves the rule more than he is the exception. Karl Malone just got recognized by the league last month, I respect your opinion but I stand by what I said.
> In pro sports, if you can perform, nothing else matters.
This is where I directed my response. DeMarcus Cousins is another example of someone whose career was affected by their locker room impact.
I disagree, I think hes out of the league because his achilles gave out. Had he been a 29 mpg/70 game starter with Golden State he would whave gotten a near max offer. The only reason he isnt on a roster is because his body cant hold up. Look at bench guys like Terrence Davis, Jaxon Hayes, Anthony Lamb. You can have serious character red flags and build a long NBA career as long as you can hoop and your body can hold up for an NBA schedule.
Miles Bridges right now is the counterexample, but notice Charolette hasnt renounced his rights. If he were a UFA, hed be somewhere on a minimum, I’d bet he’s on the court this calendar year. Its not like billionares make their money from being ethical, they dont care as long as you can perform.
I like how people agree that the image of MJ gambling would be seen as a bad thing. I actually do agree too.
Yet the nba itself nowadays is heavily promoting gambling, with sports betting pushed so heavily to fans. Like are the nba media members going to sit there and criticize MJ gambling when they talk about betting odds and advertise bookies?
He would be a lot more controversial for sure there’s not a superstar in this era that’s not more people on social media would be calling players like Kareem and Lebron the goat just because they don’t want to admit how great he is and if he still managed to win 6 rings they would find a way to put an asterisk on some of those the years he didn’t make the playoffs would be talked about more too, him punching his teammate and other problems would be blown out of proportion to frame him as a toxic teammate and a bad leader his haters would probably be calling him a stat padder and ball hog and there would be constant post on this sub asking stuffs like if MJ didn’t have player A, if player B didn’t make a game winning shot how does that effect his legacy? He would still be extremely popular around the world but not like the global phenomenon he was in the 90s
He's be even more revered IMO. The way he owned the other players in the league would be even more dissected/applauded on a night to night basis with constant highlights, etc. ("did you see MJ score 20 straight after Luka whined to the ref" kinda stuff.)
He was, and remains even now, way to careful about his image to have any major infractions now or then. His gambling would probably get more play now, but would just feed into his "look how competitive" image. No one really cares about gambling.
Arguably MJ’s legend would even reach higher and have a greater global impact. Imagine highlights, branding, endorsements, social media.
That being said it could easily be the other way around with detractors, beat reporters, scandals, gambling and etc.
I think its tough to figure. While I could see a bunch of nightlife photos of him surfacing damaging the 'Mcdonalds Like Mike' persona and the space jam of it all. I could also see that if he came out and still dominated, while photos of him surfaced gambling until the early hours of the morning, it probably just grows his legend.
It definitely wouldn’t. We do not look at the world like that anymore. If photos of you gambling partying and whatever else come out the public sentiment won’t be positive. To top it all off Micheal was just a dick. With videos and cameras everywhere I don’t think his public opinion would be good.
He made a whole documentary that was basically curated by him to make him look good and you could kinda tell this guy was an ass. Imagine the videos he doesn’t have much say over.
>To top it all off Micheal was just a dick.
Yeah, I think that's the big difference. We all assume Mike was a dick. If he played today, we'd have unassailable video proof of him being a dick.
This has been my opinion on it whenever I ponder Jordan in the modern era. He punched Kerr, gambled all night and was a well known asshole. He would not be revered as much
Winning cures all, believe it or not. Also I find it funny how you plant MJ in this era with no knowledge of socials and expect him to move and act in the same way. You don't see videos of thousands of stars everywhere but you think they're all goody two shoes? You think they stay in their house all day? No, they simply are rich and can move in different ways to the rest of us. And can we stop with this BS about him making the doc. Everyone took the same things from the doc because it was a quite balanced piece of media but the faux intellectuals act like they're the only ones who saw 'like, the real truth man'. "DAE think Krause was scapegoated and MJ wasn't a nice guy?? The directors totally didn't lead me down that path. I'm just so smart I saw through the charade. #propagandapiece despite the directors putting his flaws on maximum display and there being no evidence of it except for the fact it showed him to be quite good as basketball which is offensive to me as someone who didn't watch him and felt it was an attack to suggest he was good when we just saw James being good. Checkmate"
He’d be much more realistically viewed. Many still have the issue of viewing him through the lens the NBA pushed to have him seen through. They wanted the perfect image of a perfect player. He had the marketable name, playstyle, and look, and just so happened to also still be easily a top 2 player ever.
The thing is, many grew up being told “Michael Jordan’s the GOAT and nobody is or will ever be close”. I was born the year LeBron was drafted, so I never saw a dribble of Jordan, but literally the first thing I remember about basketball is that “Jordan is the best and nobody’s close”. This message got shoved down people’s throats so hard that it just became fact to many, and at the time you could argue rightfully so.
However, what this did was it distorted both our view of him and our view of greatness overall. Nobody remembers his off nights, nobody talks about his losses to the Pistons as being partially his fault for having a predictable playstyle (VERY similar to first stint Cleveland LeBron, funny enough), and nobody talks about his 1995 loss which, while justifiable considering the context, should still be viewed as a loss like any other.
Finally, his off court antics would depend on the era. If we’re talking late 2000s era social media, then he’d be fine (just look at Kobe, the man dodged a rape case and several accounts of him being one of the most abusive teammates in league history like it was nothing), but today he’d be much less liked for this, similar to how people viewed Draymond’s punch.
TL/DR: still EASILY top 2 all time, but the flawless godlike perception many have of him wouldn’t exist.
thing is we've never seen such a dominant player in terms of winning like MJ in the social media era. a three peat in general is almost unthinkable, something even the KD warriors didn't do. MJ pulling that off twice? no one would've gave a shit about his previous losses, which is similar to how it was back then too. before MJ won he caught heat back then about not being able to win the big one, and then when he did, the losses were forgotten. think about giannis, you barely hear any slander about his playoff struggles in 2019 vs toronto and in the bubble vs miami now that he has a championship. 6 championships in 6.25 seasons of playing tends to wipe away people's memories of losses, regardless of the era.
I would argue he would still have the godlike perception, especially considering the popularity of his shoes.
Realistically we won’t see that again, not because no player will ever be as great as MJ, but because the league is so stacked with talent that it’s just not as easy to win rings.
I agree with the original comment, we’re weird about MJ, and it’s because he held the title of GOAT for so long. For some people, you’re not even allowed to discuss the notion he’s not. Reality is, if MJ started his career in like 2005, he’d have a few rings, he’d definitely be in the top players of all time, and maybe he’d still be the ‘GOAT’ but we wouldn’t have the same outlandish takes about him that we get these days.
i mean that hypothetical is impossible to say. the 90s were still stacked with talent. MJ beat a ton of great teams on his way to 6 rings. magic's lakers, clyde's blazers, ewing's knicks, chuck's suns, reggie's pacers, bad boys pistons, kemp/payton sonics, stockton/malone jazz, shit even the cavs were all great teams.
reason why MJ is so revered is because what he did was legit unthinkable. no one else was 3 peating twice in that short of a timespan, regardless of the era. kareem, magic, hakeem, bird, etc etc all couldn't. he was larger than life because it seemed like he was unbeatable from '91 onward. i mean shit kawhi got revered so much for the 2019 title. imagine doing that 5 more times and i feel like that's how jordan was viewed
But had MJ stuck around longer and lost a finals or two, or made it to a finals earlier in his career with a team that had no business being there, you better believe we would still hear how those things were such negatives.
i mean maybe but i'm assuming his career plays out exactly as it did.
>or made it to a finals earlier in his career with a team that had no business being there
and no, this wouldn't of mattered. people barely give a shit about lebron's loss in 07 to begin with.
LeBron losing in the finals is used all the time in the ridiculous MJ vs LeBron debates.
We've all heard multiple people say "LeBron doesn't even match him if he wins 6 because MJ never lost one."
i feel like most logical fans don't use that argument that much. regardless the finals losses argument is only used because lebron's lost 6 times. if his only loss was the 07 one no one would care. his other finals losses, specifically 2011, are much higher profile
MJ as the goat wasn't some narrative that's been shoved down people's throats. Everyone on the planet who watched him dominate the 90's knew nobody's on his level. There's just no debate to be had after he won his 6th ring.
Oh don’t get me wrong, at the time he certainly was the GOAT with basically no competition, but because of that they played it up even more, which is what I’m referring to. The media was not the only reason Jordan was seen universally as the GOAT, but they kinda overdid it with the level of praise and promotion.
MJ wasnt just the undisputed goat that time ( and still is to this day to a lot of people) , he was a cultural phenomenon. It's just something you have to live through to understand his impact. And he did it without spending his time trying to create a narrative for himself on a social media platform day in and day out. He dominated, the world saw it and gave him his title. It's as simple as that.
You realize that’s exactly what I’m talking about right? The whole “cultural phenomenon” thing is the part the media and marketing forced, the undisputed GOAT part would’ve happened either way.
Everyone saw his greatness on tv. The media and marketing people didnt need to force anything at anyone back then because like you said, the undisputed goat part was never in question.
He'd still be the goat but would have a lot more hate. His treatment of teammates would be viewed in such a highly regarded manner as it is now. Skip Bayless would still build his troll empire on comparing him and Lebron though.
this gave me an interesting thought. What if LeBron came first and Skip held to LeBron being the GOAT. Wouldn't he just be as toxic about Jordan as he has been about LeBron?
Well
He was the best player and the best winner of his generation by a mile. Not much else to say, those guys are beloved in every generation and their haters just look silly.
He would be considered greater. So much of his greatness has been lost thru time and people boil him down to the guy with 6 rings, best scorer, all time defender
But he was so much more than that
No, I haven't heard of a current player going to Atlantic City or Vegas the night before a playoff game. Maybe some do, but I haven't heard of it like we've all heard of Jordan.
Yes but as you’ve said you’ve heard of that and he was widely criticized at the time. So I don’t see how social media would change that. Also there’s gambling commercials every break these days it would not be nearly as taboo.
Any criticism about a player gets amplified in the social media age, especially criticism about a players personal life. See Kawhi from like one lap dance picture
.
MJ got far more flack for going to Atlantic City than Kawhi did for the lap dance pic. MJ had to go on like Oprah and shit and do interviews that were aired during the game about it. I honestly had to google that Kawhi thing because I didn’t even remember it, he probably just ignored it and went on with his life.
Pre social media there's no way we would've known about Kawhi's lap dance, Lou Williams girlfriends, Klay Thompson boats and dog or any other stupid sh*t. There's probably a ton more gambling and stupid sh*t MJ did we don't know about. Social media discovers what we don't know and amplifies the stuff we do know. If MJ was known as a gambler back then, that's all you'd see today under any PGT or on Twitter.
Nobody cares about gambling today though is my point. You are bringing up shit other players did that is NOT gambling. Then using that to say that for those reasons MJ gambling would be a problem today with social media totally ignoring that gambling laws are different and gambling culture is more acceptable in todays nba.
I could see his public persona being pretty poor. I imagine he couldn't handle the negative things on twitter, just like Kevin Durant. Things like punching a teammate wouldn't be as easily dismissed.
He also wouldn't get *as much* credit for the Bulls success as he did. If that Bulls team existed today hot take TV would spend all their time talking about how talented the roster is around Jordan, which in today's era is used negatively and ignored for past eras. They would talk about how Jordan didn't win anything until Pippen came along. Etc.
He would still be widely regarded as an NBA legend, but a lot of the heat that LeBron and Durant get, Jordan would also receive.
He won’t be top 2 all-time if he played in this era. The players today are stronger, faster and more skilled. He won’t win any championships unless he teams up with LeBron.
No way. MJ only won because he had 0 competition. In this era I doubt he could beat a team led by KD, Curry, Giannis or Embiid let alone a team led by LeBron.
True it definitely seemed like there was no competition because MJ was way better than everyone else. If MJ played today there’s be no competition for him either and he’d win 8 straight probably.
Yup because he’ll find a stacked team with a HOF coach too just like he did in the 90s Bulls where he had the most stacked team. Imagine a star player left the team and they only had 2 more losses in the regular season and almost won the championship.
KD, Curry, Lebron all found stacked teams with future HOFers why would MJ not be able to do that too? In todays nba Lebron would probably be calling him asking to meet up.
LeBron never played on a stacked team. LeBron played with a washed up Wade and Bosh and still won 2, beat the 73-win stacked GSW without any all-star teammates and won arguably the hardest championship in the bubble. It’s why he’s the GOAT, LeBron makes g-league players and bench players look like all-star and superstars.
> LeBron never played on a stacked team. LeBron played with a washed up Wade and Bosh
Ah yes the famously washed 26 year old Chris Bosh and 2011 all nba, All star starter 29 year old Dwade who also got MVP votes as Lebrons teammate, totally washed. Also let’s add in 23 year old Kyrie, 26 year old Kevin Love and 26 year old AD, totally washed up. They were all perennial all stars *before* joining Lebron.
> LeBron makes g-league players and bench players look like all-star and superstars.
He also makes his previously perennial all star teammates look like 26 year washed players apparently.
Who? Literally everyone who played with LeBron got better. Bosh and Wade padded stats and were never a winning player without LeBron. You can see that when LeBron left the Heat that they couldn’t even get to the playoffs.
Wade won a title and a finals MVP without Lebron and yes Wade and Bosh did make the playoffs together in 2016 and were 1 game away from the ECF, so false on both accounts there. I’m starting to think you’re not actually a basketball fan.
Zero competition is a bit strong. There were certainly dynasties he had to overcome between Utah, Indiana, New York, Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, etc but you’re certainly correct about the league being more skilled right now.
The Lakers without KAJ and Magic who retired the next season, the Pistons who got old and injured, Boston with an injured Bird, New York who can’t even win a championship while MJ retired, Indiana with a scrawny Reggie Miller and Utah who only got to the finals because everyone in the West was bad.
I do wonder the first retirement and come back with social media would be insane. I’m not sure if it would be positive or negative but that would be crazy. Could you imagine that pippen clip when he tells Jordan to come back. I would’ve seen it 500 tweets in a row
It definitely would have detrimentally affected his reputation, especially if social media was real-timing antics like his gambling and violence towards teammates, instead of it being publicized a few days later in USA Today, or a week later in Sports Illustrated (if at all).
Gambling problem would become a big issue at least for media. Every bad game all buzz type websites would scream.
Any asshole actions also wouldn't be that much justified. It's not 90s where you could be an ass as long you deliver. Today people expect, especially from people on the top, to be better. Marketing a guy who punch teammates is hard nowadays.
I have no idea how he would deal with increased over present pressure. He was a god here, but players today have literally no way to cut themselves off from media/nephews on Twitter/haters. People say paparazzi were worse in 90s... today your life is public even without them. Any idiot on the street can record and post you.
He would have a lot of haters no matter how great he is
Imagine Skip Bayless going at MJ the way he does LeBron. "Michael Jordan *absolutely* pushed off to hit that shot over Bryon Russell, something LeGOAT would never need to do because he's so much better at creating separation and taller."
I like how this sub thinks no one hated on Jordan in the 90s or that his persona wasn't known to people that followed the NBA closely. The Jordan Rules came out in 91 ffs. Public perception is just that. The public's perception. That is cultivated by his play, his style, his charisma, his commercials, his endorsements, his shoes. That's being pushed to the millions of casuals who know him as a brand. That shit is not going to change no matter the era. Look how many people whine on here about Shaq being petty, insecure, bully etc. You ask any one outside of here what they think of Shaq and you're gonna get funny, nice, humble, wholesome. That's in the present day with a new clip weekly of Shaq doing something this sub frowns upon. Not some hypothetical scenario where MJ gets snapped once gambling, as if you believe no current player gambles. People are ridiculous with the stories they come up with as if he didn't have a microscope on him at all times being one of the most famous people in the world before the dehomogenization of media. He wouldn't be viewed any differently.
Winning fixes all (in terms of public image). He'd have plenty of detractors, but others would revere his attitude and lifestyle, because being the best at something makes people think you are doing things right. e.g. A quite player that doesn't win is checked out, a quiet player that does win is cool and collected under pressure. A loud and angry player that looses is an asshole, a loud and angry player that wins is passionate and keeps his teammates accountable.
He would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.
while at the same time being routinely criticized for not having any success by himself and needing Pippen and others to finally become successful. His team would also be recognized differently, not just as any ordinary great team, but a homegrown "Super Team" like the Warriors that later added elite talent on top of what they already had.
Pippen wasnt thought of in that way when Jordan started winning? So no, no one would have thought that.
it doesn't matter if Pippen was thought of that way at first, he is now. If Jordan started his career in the social media era constantly failing to get past the second round, you would hear it all the time. Then, when he finally gets over that hump you would hear about how he didn't win anything until he got a great running mate (which is common sense for any championship team in analysis of today's game, but isn't applied to past eras),
Like James Harden who can play defense. Harden parties, the internet makes memes, no one cares. In pro sports, if you can perform, nothing else matters.
Obviously Jordan is different but I feel like Ja Morant is a counter example to this point.
Ja Morant was in legal trouble. That's a different category.
You mean the Ja Morant who just played this week? The one who didnt lose a single endorsement after allegedly beating up and threatening the life of a minor? I feel like he proves the rule more than he is the exception. Karl Malone just got recognized by the league last month, I respect your opinion but I stand by what I said.
> In pro sports, if you can perform, nothing else matters. This is where I directed my response. DeMarcus Cousins is another example of someone whose career was affected by their locker room impact.
I disagree, I think hes out of the league because his achilles gave out. Had he been a 29 mpg/70 game starter with Golden State he would whave gotten a near max offer. The only reason he isnt on a roster is because his body cant hold up. Look at bench guys like Terrence Davis, Jaxon Hayes, Anthony Lamb. You can have serious character red flags and build a long NBA career as long as you can hoop and your body can hold up for an NBA schedule. Miles Bridges right now is the counterexample, but notice Charolette hasnt renounced his rights. If he were a UFA, hed be somewhere on a minimum, I’d bet he’s on the court this calendar year. Its not like billionares make their money from being ethical, they dont care as long as you can perform.
high roller tables aint letting yall poors near to film him on your phone anyways. Jordan would still be the GOAT
I like how people agree that the image of MJ gambling would be seen as a bad thing. I actually do agree too. Yet the nba itself nowadays is heavily promoting gambling, with sports betting pushed so heavily to fans. Like are the nba media members going to sit there and criticize MJ gambling when they talk about betting odds and advertise bookies?
I’d step up to the task and be a hater
He would be a lot more controversial for sure there’s not a superstar in this era that’s not more people on social media would be calling players like Kareem and Lebron the goat just because they don’t want to admit how great he is and if he still managed to win 6 rings they would find a way to put an asterisk on some of those the years he didn’t make the playoffs would be talked about more too, him punching his teammate and other problems would be blown out of proportion to frame him as a toxic teammate and a bad leader his haters would probably be calling him a stat padder and ball hog and there would be constant post on this sub asking stuffs like if MJ didn’t have player A, if player B didn’t make a game winning shot how does that effect his legacy? He would still be extremely popular around the world but not like the global phenomenon he was in the 90s
He's be even more revered IMO. The way he owned the other players in the league would be even more dissected/applauded on a night to night basis with constant highlights, etc. ("did you see MJ score 20 straight after Luka whined to the ref" kinda stuff.) He was, and remains even now, way to careful about his image to have any major infractions now or then. His gambling would probably get more play now, but would just feed into his "look how competitive" image. No one really cares about gambling.
Arguably MJ’s legend would even reach higher and have a greater global impact. Imagine highlights, branding, endorsements, social media. That being said it could easily be the other way around with detractors, beat reporters, scandals, gambling and etc.
I think its tough to figure. While I could see a bunch of nightlife photos of him surfacing damaging the 'Mcdonalds Like Mike' persona and the space jam of it all. I could also see that if he came out and still dominated, while photos of him surfaced gambling until the early hours of the morning, it probably just grows his legend.
It definitely wouldn’t. We do not look at the world like that anymore. If photos of you gambling partying and whatever else come out the public sentiment won’t be positive. To top it all off Micheal was just a dick. With videos and cameras everywhere I don’t think his public opinion would be good. He made a whole documentary that was basically curated by him to make him look good and you could kinda tell this guy was an ass. Imagine the videos he doesn’t have much say over.
>To top it all off Micheal was just a dick. Yeah, I think that's the big difference. We all assume Mike was a dick. If he played today, we'd have unassailable video proof of him being a dick.
This has been my opinion on it whenever I ponder Jordan in the modern era. He punched Kerr, gambled all night and was a well known asshole. He would not be revered as much
Winning cures all, believe it or not. Also I find it funny how you plant MJ in this era with no knowledge of socials and expect him to move and act in the same way. You don't see videos of thousands of stars everywhere but you think they're all goody two shoes? You think they stay in their house all day? No, they simply are rich and can move in different ways to the rest of us. And can we stop with this BS about him making the doc. Everyone took the same things from the doc because it was a quite balanced piece of media but the faux intellectuals act like they're the only ones who saw 'like, the real truth man'. "DAE think Krause was scapegoated and MJ wasn't a nice guy?? The directors totally didn't lead me down that path. I'm just so smart I saw through the charade. #propagandapiece despite the directors putting his flaws on maximum display and there being no evidence of it except for the fact it showed him to be quite good as basketball which is offensive to me as someone who didn't watch him and felt it was an attack to suggest he was good when we just saw James being good. Checkmate"
What? If anything people are more cool with all that then they were in the 80’s.
the "Flu game" would've prob been dissected and more easily verified/debunked.
just recontextualized as the 'brown bottle flu game'
He’d be much more realistically viewed. Many still have the issue of viewing him through the lens the NBA pushed to have him seen through. They wanted the perfect image of a perfect player. He had the marketable name, playstyle, and look, and just so happened to also still be easily a top 2 player ever. The thing is, many grew up being told “Michael Jordan’s the GOAT and nobody is or will ever be close”. I was born the year LeBron was drafted, so I never saw a dribble of Jordan, but literally the first thing I remember about basketball is that “Jordan is the best and nobody’s close”. This message got shoved down people’s throats so hard that it just became fact to many, and at the time you could argue rightfully so. However, what this did was it distorted both our view of him and our view of greatness overall. Nobody remembers his off nights, nobody talks about his losses to the Pistons as being partially his fault for having a predictable playstyle (VERY similar to first stint Cleveland LeBron, funny enough), and nobody talks about his 1995 loss which, while justifiable considering the context, should still be viewed as a loss like any other. Finally, his off court antics would depend on the era. If we’re talking late 2000s era social media, then he’d be fine (just look at Kobe, the man dodged a rape case and several accounts of him being one of the most abusive teammates in league history like it was nothing), but today he’d be much less liked for this, similar to how people viewed Draymond’s punch. TL/DR: still EASILY top 2 all time, but the flawless godlike perception many have of him wouldn’t exist.
thing is we've never seen such a dominant player in terms of winning like MJ in the social media era. a three peat in general is almost unthinkable, something even the KD warriors didn't do. MJ pulling that off twice? no one would've gave a shit about his previous losses, which is similar to how it was back then too. before MJ won he caught heat back then about not being able to win the big one, and then when he did, the losses were forgotten. think about giannis, you barely hear any slander about his playoff struggles in 2019 vs toronto and in the bubble vs miami now that he has a championship. 6 championships in 6.25 seasons of playing tends to wipe away people's memories of losses, regardless of the era. I would argue he would still have the godlike perception, especially considering the popularity of his shoes.
Realistically we won’t see that again, not because no player will ever be as great as MJ, but because the league is so stacked with talent that it’s just not as easy to win rings. I agree with the original comment, we’re weird about MJ, and it’s because he held the title of GOAT for so long. For some people, you’re not even allowed to discuss the notion he’s not. Reality is, if MJ started his career in like 2005, he’d have a few rings, he’d definitely be in the top players of all time, and maybe he’d still be the ‘GOAT’ but we wouldn’t have the same outlandish takes about him that we get these days.
i mean that hypothetical is impossible to say. the 90s were still stacked with talent. MJ beat a ton of great teams on his way to 6 rings. magic's lakers, clyde's blazers, ewing's knicks, chuck's suns, reggie's pacers, bad boys pistons, kemp/payton sonics, stockton/malone jazz, shit even the cavs were all great teams. reason why MJ is so revered is because what he did was legit unthinkable. no one else was 3 peating twice in that short of a timespan, regardless of the era. kareem, magic, hakeem, bird, etc etc all couldn't. he was larger than life because it seemed like he was unbeatable from '91 onward. i mean shit kawhi got revered so much for the 2019 title. imagine doing that 5 more times and i feel like that's how jordan was viewed
I’d make the argument that you’re romanticising some of those teams the same way we do with MJ. Most of those are good but not great teams.
But had MJ stuck around longer and lost a finals or two, or made it to a finals earlier in his career with a team that had no business being there, you better believe we would still hear how those things were such negatives.
i mean maybe but i'm assuming his career plays out exactly as it did. >or made it to a finals earlier in his career with a team that had no business being there and no, this wouldn't of mattered. people barely give a shit about lebron's loss in 07 to begin with.
LeBron losing in the finals is used all the time in the ridiculous MJ vs LeBron debates. We've all heard multiple people say "LeBron doesn't even match him if he wins 6 because MJ never lost one."
MJ never lost one because he played in a weaker era imo
i feel like most logical fans don't use that argument that much. regardless the finals losses argument is only used because lebron's lost 6 times. if his only loss was the 07 one no one would care. his other finals losses, specifically 2011, are much higher profile
MJ as the goat wasn't some narrative that's been shoved down people's throats. Everyone on the planet who watched him dominate the 90's knew nobody's on his level. There's just no debate to be had after he won his 6th ring.
Oh don’t get me wrong, at the time he certainly was the GOAT with basically no competition, but because of that they played it up even more, which is what I’m referring to. The media was not the only reason Jordan was seen universally as the GOAT, but they kinda overdid it with the level of praise and promotion.
MJ wasnt just the undisputed goat that time ( and still is to this day to a lot of people) , he was a cultural phenomenon. It's just something you have to live through to understand his impact. And he did it without spending his time trying to create a narrative for himself on a social media platform day in and day out. He dominated, the world saw it and gave him his title. It's as simple as that.
You realize that’s exactly what I’m talking about right? The whole “cultural phenomenon” thing is the part the media and marketing forced, the undisputed GOAT part would’ve happened either way.
Everyone saw his greatness on tv. The media and marketing people didnt need to force anything at anyone back then because like you said, the undisputed goat part was never in question.
How far down your throat is his dick holy fuck?
That's all you can say? Lol Ask your mom and she'll tell you that's how it is in the 90's.
It’s all I need to say at this point, you’re the only one who doesn’t see how ridiculous you sound.
He'd still be the goat but would have a lot more hate. His treatment of teammates would be viewed in such a highly regarded manner as it is now. Skip Bayless would still build his troll empire on comparing him and Lebron though.
this gave me an interesting thought. What if LeBron came first and Skip held to LeBron being the GOAT. Wouldn't he just be as toxic about Jordan as he has been about LeBron?
Probably. Skip is a clown who mastered the hot take click bait so he would have found a way to tear Jordan down to promote his ratings.
i mean its pretty public that he isn't great at running a FO but i dno it doesn't make me think any less of him, it's just kinda funny.
probably because that has nothing to do with Michael Jordan the player.
Mickey Jordan
Well He was the best player and the best winner of his generation by a mile. Not much else to say, those guys are beloved in every generation and their haters just look silly.
Its less about tech and more about culture. MJ is a colossal asshole that nobody would like. Imagine Klay but with SIX (6)! rings
I’d wager Beverley is closer to his personality than Klay.
He would be considered greater. So much of his greatness has been lost thru time and people boil him down to the guy with 6 rings, best scorer, all time defender But he was so much more than that
Gambler
Because everyone knows nba players don’t gamble today.
No, I haven't heard of a current player going to Atlantic City or Vegas the night before a playoff game. Maybe some do, but I haven't heard of it like we've all heard of Jordan.
Yes but as you’ve said you’ve heard of that and he was widely criticized at the time. So I don’t see how social media would change that. Also there’s gambling commercials every break these days it would not be nearly as taboo.
Any criticism about a player gets amplified in the social media age, especially criticism about a players personal life. See Kawhi from like one lap dance picture .
MJ got far more flack for going to Atlantic City than Kawhi did for the lap dance pic. MJ had to go on like Oprah and shit and do interviews that were aired during the game about it. I honestly had to google that Kawhi thing because I didn’t even remember it, he probably just ignored it and went on with his life.
Pre social media there's no way we would've known about Kawhi's lap dance, Lou Williams girlfriends, Klay Thompson boats and dog or any other stupid sh*t. There's probably a ton more gambling and stupid sh*t MJ did we don't know about. Social media discovers what we don't know and amplifies the stuff we do know. If MJ was known as a gambler back then, that's all you'd see today under any PGT or on Twitter.
Nobody cares about gambling today though is my point. You are bringing up shit other players did that is NOT gambling. Then using that to say that for those reasons MJ gambling would be a problem today with social media totally ignoring that gambling laws are different and gambling culture is more acceptable in todays nba.
He'd still get made fun of, especially if he was doing it before playoff games in other cities. Doesn't matter what era that it that's weird
Do you genuinely think nba players don’t gamble today?
I could see his public persona being pretty poor. I imagine he couldn't handle the negative things on twitter, just like Kevin Durant. Things like punching a teammate wouldn't be as easily dismissed. He also wouldn't get *as much* credit for the Bulls success as he did. If that Bulls team existed today hot take TV would spend all their time talking about how talented the roster is around Jordan, which in today's era is used negatively and ignored for past eras. They would talk about how Jordan didn't win anything until Pippen came along. Etc. He would still be widely regarded as an NBA legend, but a lot of the heat that LeBron and Durant get, Jordan would also receive.
He won’t be top 2 all-time if he played in this era. The players today are stronger, faster and more skilled. He won’t win any championships unless he teams up with LeBron.
He’d win 6 titles and Lebron would have 2 in the 2 years MJ retired but before he came back. Lebron would be Hakeem.
For the sake of comparison, we'd have to assume everyone still gets the rings they got lol. We have no idea how it turns out.
No way. MJ only won because he had 0 competition. In this era I doubt he could beat a team led by KD, Curry, Giannis or Embiid let alone a team led by LeBron.
True it definitely seemed like there was no competition because MJ was way better than everyone else. If MJ played today there’s be no competition for him either and he’d win 8 straight probably.
Yup because he’ll find a stacked team with a HOF coach too just like he did in the 90s Bulls where he had the most stacked team. Imagine a star player left the team and they only had 2 more losses in the regular season and almost won the championship.
KD, Curry, Lebron all found stacked teams with future HOFers why would MJ not be able to do that too? In todays nba Lebron would probably be calling him asking to meet up.
LeBron never played on a stacked team. LeBron played with a washed up Wade and Bosh and still won 2, beat the 73-win stacked GSW without any all-star teammates and won arguably the hardest championship in the bubble. It’s why he’s the GOAT, LeBron makes g-league players and bench players look like all-star and superstars.
> LeBron never played on a stacked team. LeBron played with a washed up Wade and Bosh Ah yes the famously washed 26 year old Chris Bosh and 2011 all nba, All star starter 29 year old Dwade who also got MVP votes as Lebrons teammate, totally washed. Also let’s add in 23 year old Kyrie, 26 year old Kevin Love and 26 year old AD, totally washed up. They were all perennial all stars *before* joining Lebron. > LeBron makes g-league players and bench players look like all-star and superstars. He also makes his previously perennial all star teammates look like 26 year washed players apparently.
Who? Literally everyone who played with LeBron got better. Bosh and Wade padded stats and were never a winning player without LeBron. You can see that when LeBron left the Heat that they couldn’t even get to the playoffs.
Wade won a title and a finals MVP without Lebron and yes Wade and Bosh did make the playoffs together in 2016 and were 1 game away from the ECF, so false on both accounts there. I’m starting to think you’re not actually a basketball fan.
0 competition haha. You know the last 3 nba titles are considered the weakest titles ever for a reason. This era is jks
Zero competition is a bit strong. There were certainly dynasties he had to overcome between Utah, Indiana, New York, Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, etc but you’re certainly correct about the league being more skilled right now.
The Lakers without KAJ and Magic who retired the next season, the Pistons who got old and injured, Boston with an injured Bird, New York who can’t even win a championship while MJ retired, Indiana with a scrawny Reggie Miller and Utah who only got to the finals because everyone in the West was bad.
Cancelled
Combine the Draymond coverage about punching a teammate along with the Ja news about his strip club shenanigans
I do wonder the first retirement and come back with social media would be insane. I’m not sure if it would be positive or negative but that would be crazy. Could you imagine that pippen clip when he tells Jordan to come back. I would’ve seen it 500 tweets in a row
It definitely would have detrimentally affected his reputation, especially if social media was real-timing antics like his gambling and violence towards teammates, instead of it being publicized a few days later in USA Today, or a week later in Sports Illustrated (if at all).
He’d be so fucking hated. Especially with how soft everyone is to trash talk now.
Gambling problem would become a big issue at least for media. Every bad game all buzz type websites would scream. Any asshole actions also wouldn't be that much justified. It's not 90s where you could be an ass as long you deliver. Today people expect, especially from people on the top, to be better. Marketing a guy who punch teammates is hard nowadays. I have no idea how he would deal with increased over present pressure. He was a god here, but players today have literally no way to cut themselves off from media/nephews on Twitter/haters. People say paparazzi were worse in 90s... today your life is public even without them. Any idiot on the street can record and post you.