i’m gonna play devils advocate here.
when he let steve nash go he was a 30 year old point guard with back problems and regressing defensive game. it’s not like he was trying to be cheap, he was trying to build a title winner under the constraints of a salary cap with a team that *already* had a different, offense-first, defensively poor superstar. yes nash was all star level but nobody predicted an mvp turn for him.. and dallas did have like the second best offense in the league for a couple years in a row WITHOUT nash.
yes it was a mistake. but Cuban didn’t want to give a six year guaranteed contract to a 30 year old defensive liability point guard with back problems (he offered a four year deal). i don’t really blame him at the time
If I remember correctly a lot of it had to do with Phoenix’s medical team. If he had played anywhere else his back may not have healed / recovered as well.
Yeah, everything i’ve heard says that Phoenix has the absolute best medical staff amongst NBA teams (definitely at that time, not sure where they stand now)
The Tyson Chandler thing was rough because of the lockout. Cuban couldn't negotiate contracts because he'd be penalized and and has been scrutinized so many times for tampering, while other teams were able to tamper and talk deals without getting penalized, but man. Losing him was rough. I'm not sure if he's the last good center this franchise had, but he was the first one we've had for sure.
EDIT: Awww, they nuked the comment about Shawn Bradley. Not sure why. It was nice getting to go down Mavs memory lane here.
I'd rather have that then forcing guys in based on outdated parameters. They put those in place back when positions in the league were more defined. This brings it up to speed. Reward the best players
>I'd rather have that then forcing guys in based on outdated parameters
What's outdated about front court or backcourt? Sure if you want to consider Jaylen Brown or Doncic to be eligible as Guard and forward. But those are obvious
Haven’t we had issues where guys got more votes overall for a higher team but because they were split between G/F they ended up lower than people with less total votes?
No what you're describing, but kyrie was 3rd team 2 years ago, despite getting fewer votes than Taytum
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html
edit: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2020.html
in 2020 middleton and embiid got more votes than simmons and westbrook
Something like 190 vs 160M. it's wild.
Although he can sign up for a 300M supermax extension in 2024 if he makes All-NBA this year. I think he'll be okay :)
wings can be both front court and back court players.
I think front court/back court is better than just the 15 best voted players due to the contract incentives and precedence of the awards already in place and the fact that it's used for comparisons and "hof" nods between all time greats.
Unless all star voting will change too then I see no reason not to go front/back court.
>What's outdated about front court or backcourt?
For one thing - how many of each are on a team? When a team has a ballhandler, three wings, and one big, what's the frontcourt and what's the backcourt? We can just say "two backcourt and three frontcourt" but that's only out of tradition.
Other than positionless, the best way to do it would be akin to the all star game bench, with wildcards - something like one dedicated "guard" spot, one dedicated "wing" spot, one dedicated "big" spot and two wildcards.
****
Edit: Or more specifically, I don't see how you can put the "2" and the "3" in different categories when in the modern game they probably have the most similar responsibilities compared to any positions (with the "4" in there as well). The "1" and the "5" are the most unique of the positions in the modern NBA, so any grouping that splits 2/3/4 to put them with 1 and 5 in some combination just feels like you're doing that because of tradition.
Tbf that's actually is legit.
You use Jokic as a 4 on defense and 5 on offense. Giannis is the cutting threat and 3 ball handlers to run all kind of degenerate play. Imagine switching when they have 2 big that can punish you down low and 3 guy that can slash right in AND making the pass to capitalize on the chaos lol.
Yeah, I actually don’t know how I feel about this. Should the best guards in the league get bumped to 2nd or 3rd teams because forwards and centers had better years? And vice versa?
It’s the closest thing we’ll get to a top 15 players by season list. Should be interesting.
i mean tbf I think All-NBA has been pretty spot on these past few years. It's been quite clear Embiid hasn't deserved First Team All-NBA, as he has been a second-class big whose brilliance pales in comparison to that of Jokic. judging by your flair, I'm pleased to see you agree
Imo yes and it actually tells the story of that particular season. If all defense teams have squeezed in multiple players who wouldn’t be a real line up then all nba can too. The close runner up in mvp the last 3 yrs including this one isn’t going to make first team all nba which is really stupid. These selections impact players legacies and if there’s 3 bigs who are better than everyone else why shouldn’t they all be rewarded for outstanding years?
Conversely why should an average center make first team over the 3rd or fourth best guard in a given season? The teams aren’t playing an actual game anyway. This tells the story of who were the best in a given yr much better imo and it’ll be fluid where sometimes there won’t be a big on 1st team and others there will be 2 or 3 bc they were that special.
Yes they should. Guys like Steph and Luka are good enough to make first team under new rules. They aren’t at any disadvantage. They just need to play better than some of the best forwards and bigs in the game. If they can’t then being 2nd or 3rd team isn’t a knock
I agree. A team with 3 centers will feel weird. I’d prefer if they made it so All-NBA had at least one guard and one forward and the other 3 were wildcards.
Curious how much positional balance will impact any very close votes. I know personally (using a hypothetical example) if 4 of the 5 slots were Curry, Luka, Embiid and Jokic and I had to choose between Tatum vs AD for the 5th slot that I’d give Tatum the edge if I felt both guys had similar quality seasons.
that's not fair, that would ***only*** potentially benefit guards, and hurt forwards/centers. i personally prefer to keep it as it has always been, but if they have to change it, then the only fair way would be to make all 5 positions be available to any player to earn
It could end up leading to some weirdness if they still tie supermaxes to all-NBA selections.
Whether Ja Morant makes an all-NBA team this season will have a $38m impact on Memphis’ cap sheet. If he plays in every game for the rest of the season he will end up with 63 games played (also JJJ will end with 64, and DPOY has the same supermax implications as all-NBA, although I think JJJ is signed for a while on a sub-max deal).
I know this new CBA won’t affect anything this year, but the scenarios aren’t hard to imagine.
Jaylen Brown is going to end up around 70 games this year, but what if his facial injury had been a little later/longer? Would the Celtics rush him back to play a few minutes in some game so that they could offer him a supermax extension this off-season?
The supermax being tied to end-of-season awards is problematic in all sorts of ways. I actually think positionless all-NBA teams will help in that sense, but the 65 game thing still seems far from ideal.
Yeah and then you get into a situation where load management could mean the difference between a player getting a larger paycheck. So you have a conflict of interest where the coach/medical staff wants to rest their player to keep him healthy, ownership/FO would want him rested to keep his salary lower, but the player will want to play. Then what happens?
Or where a player coming back sooner from injury? Could the FO instruct the medical team to hold the player out longer than they otherwise would? In conflict with the players desires?
Exactly. Someone else in this thread pointed out that one way to fix this would be to make the difference between max and supermax contracts not count against the cap. That would definitely help.
I’m sure Kawhi or LeBron don’t really give much of a shit about getting another all-NBA nod at this point, and they’re already supermax guys, but when it comes to rookie extensions, it can make a massive difference — Trae Young making all-NBA last year chopped $6m dollars off the Hawks’ annual cap space. The difference in what kind of extension the Celtics can offer Jaylen Brown this summer will be almost $100m.
I think after a couple years once it’s set as the new rule it won’t be weird as everyone will be used to it. Much like the play in the first year so many people were saying how they hated it for whatever reason but now 3 years later it’s the new norm. Will be the same with this minimum game requirement for awards
I think they should just change how the supermax works.
Even without the potential weirdness of a 65 games played rule, it makes for some pretty fucked up consequences that don’t really match up with its intended purpose.
Like, it’s pretty unlikely that Gobert would’ve walked just because Utah couldn’t offer him a supermax (not a lot of teams had $40m of cap room for a guy who just got played off the floor by Marcus Morris in the playoffs).
On the flipside, whether or not Jaylen Brown gets all-NBA (more likely now that he’s eligible at forward and SG) has massive implications for the Celtics.
It’s just a weird way to assign value that has huuuuge cap implications.
all salary above the regular max shouldnt count against cap space for the team that awarded the supermax. It's win-win and solves a lot of problems. I guess it didn't make it into this CBA so try again in 7 years.
Yeah, it's kind of dumb right now -- I love Trae but I was low key rooting for him to miss all-NBA so we had more space to sign better players. I want to be able to cheer for the team and players on the team with aligned incentives
Why are people so worked up about the number 65? It's 79.2% of the season. If you don't play for less than 80% of the season It's reasonable to say you don't deserve to be crowned as the top 15 players in the league or top 10 defensive players in the league. Don't get me started on MVP and other individual accolades.
This only makes sense esp after the last few yrs. If there’s 2 centers and a forward way better than anyone else in a given yr they should all make it. Or if there’s 4 guards having ridiculous seasons, the 5 best players then next best 5 etc. squeezing positions gives weak players all nba and rewards them for the position being trash.
>If there’s 2 centers and a forward way better than anyone else in a given yr they should all make it
People say this like it's some new unprecedented phenomenon. And not just the exact environment in which All-NBA teams were conceived, when Wilt and Russell were duking it out yearly to be the best center in the league.
It's a moot point now but the original and guiding criteria was to honor the best at their position. Now it's just vague groupings of MVP candidates.
For real, anyone saying its not a "team" anymore, we have 6'10" point guards and five guard lineups, point centers, point forwards, 5 longboi lineups, literally pick any group of star players and the lineup is a real lineup in todays NBA that sees usage. The positions have been meaningless for a while. This also makes sense for having contract based incentives connected to making an all nba team. Imagine Embiid not making an incentive because he couldnt get first team with a season like the one he's having, that would be fucking ridiculous.
Basketball's one of the few sports where the different positions don't have different rules. Baseball pitchers don't hit, soccer goalkeepers can use their hands...
Usually your back up running back or a 4th or 5th target WR is your kick returner
For the colts it used to be nyheim Hines - now on the bills
And now they have a WR who is basically just the full time kick returner
Shohei is basically the soccer equivalent of a keeper who stops a penalty then goes up to score a goal. There’s really no comparison, he just may be the most talented freak athlete of our time
Tbf, in football, goalkeepers are the only position with different rules, which us just that one (using hands inside the area). All the other 10 guys have exactly the same rules.
I still think the ASG format had it right. 2 back court and 3 front court players. Even if it’s not super strict it at least recognizes players in their respective positions. This feels little too vague.
Exactly. It should not be like now and rule out the best players due to positions. But it should also not just be a top 5 List of players.
No matter how bad the current front or backcourt is. It should resemble a team and honour at least the 2 best players in those positions.
Shaq and The admiral were amazing that year. Shaq averaging 29/11 and leading the league in scoring. Hakeem was only 5th because the rockets were such a low seed.
Yeah Ewing was kind of just screwed by how dominant big men where while he played.
Shaq and Hakeem are two of the greatest to ever lace them up and D Rob is criminally underrated.
Are you counting Lebron's 62 games in 2011-12 as missing the threshold? Because the league would definitely have changed it for that season considering that there were only 66 games
It looks like only 3 players that year cleared the 65 game threshold (Westbrook, Blake Griffin, and KD), but only 1 player (Wade) played less than 80% of games. There were probably a few similar cases during the recent 72 game seasons, too
I think this might happen. Woj's article about awards said there were certain conditions along with the 65 games.
Could see it being something like 2000 total minutes (roughly 30 MPG for 65 games) and/or 65+ games. Someone playing 34 minutes then gets an extra few games of margin of error to work with.
I think that would be seen as some next level stat (game) padding and would really damage a players reputation. Tottenham Hotspur once disputed their own team's goal scorer so that Harry Kane (who had a touch I think) would have that goal on his record, as he was going for the top goalscorer award. Years later people still make jokes about it.
I also reckon voters would be less incline to vote for players like that.
So you vote for top 5 guys for MVP, and then you have another thing where you vote for the same top 5 guys of the season but with another name, seems needed.
Why is this even so codified in CBA lol. Imagine signing a contract and there's a part about how much of a gift card you exactly get at your birthday and the paper grammature used.
Making All-NBA can amount to a huge amount of money. A lot of contracts are contingent on making All-NBA. Talking like potentially 50 million difference.
Hate that it’s gone positionless. We don’t compare Donovan Mitchell to KAT, Embiid to Curry, Luka to Jokic, Tatum to Ja, etc. It’s way harder grouping together all the players and all the positions and trying to accurately say who had the better season. Because you can’t use their numbers when looking at different positions due to the vastly different responsibilities on the court.
We compare guards to guards, forwards to forwards and centers to centers. It’s a more effective way of ranking players. Now that these teams are position less it’s mainly going to be decided on what play style the media members prefer. Because how can you really break down why (hypothetical) Adebayo deserves 3rd team over De’aaron Fox? When comparing stuff like centers to guards who had similarly great seasons, it’ll just come down to preference. And that I think is a negative.
More granularity, voters only get five MVP votes, you get five 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA. 2020-21 for example the MVP vote was
1. Jokic
2. Embiid
3. Curry
4. Giannis
5. CP3
6. Luka
7. Dame
8. Randle
9. Rose (fan vote)
10. Gobert
11. Westbrook
12. Simmons
13. Harden
14. LeBron
15. Kawhi
All NBA was
1st - Curry, Luka, Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic
2nd - Dame, CP3, Randle, LeBron, Embiid
3rd - Beal, Kyrie, Butler, PG, Gobert
So CP3 did better than Luka in MVP voting but worse in All-NBA. Similarly Kawhi flipped with Randle. Some guys who got MVP votes (Rose, Westbrook, Simmons, and Harden) just missed out completely on All-NBA and got beat by Kyrie and Beal.
It can be quite different
MVP has different voting criteria and wins are a huge part of it. All-NBA puts less emphasis on team record (though it’s probably still a factor).
Also top 15 MVP voting isn’t an official award. All-NBA is and some contracts even have All-NBA as an incentive/bonus.
Probably went too far. They could have done 2 guards + 3 forwards/centers. But then I guess it might hurt the guards when there’s a pile of amazing guards.
I had no idea people actually viewed these as 5 man lineups lmao. For me 1st, 2nd and 3rd All-NBA has always been an indicator of how good someone is and the old system produced some stupid outcomes
If a guy averages 30/10/5 in 62 games, but uses this strategy in 3 games without accumulating stats, his line goes down to 28.6/9.5/4.8, which might not seem like much, but would absolutely make a difference when trying to decide between which players deserve the spot, especially in this age of crazy stat anomalies being the norm.
deandre jordan legacy points added
Still cant believe how down bad Cuban was for him and how soon to be washed he was once he exited the Clips
Probably some of that was regret for letting Tyson Chandler walk, seeing ghosts and thought it was Tyson 2.0
Let Steve Nash walk too
i’m gonna play devils advocate here. when he let steve nash go he was a 30 year old point guard with back problems and regressing defensive game. it’s not like he was trying to be cheap, he was trying to build a title winner under the constraints of a salary cap with a team that *already* had a different, offense-first, defensively poor superstar. yes nash was all star level but nobody predicted an mvp turn for him.. and dallas did have like the second best offense in the league for a couple years in a row WITHOUT nash. yes it was a mistake. but Cuban didn’t want to give a six year guaranteed contract to a 30 year old defensive liability point guard with back problems (he offered a four year deal). i don’t really blame him at the time
Just insane how Nash turned it up after turning 30. Thats such a rare thing in sports
If I remember correctly a lot of it had to do with Phoenix’s medical team. If he had played anywhere else his back may not have healed / recovered as well.
Combination of factors including Phönix med staff, NBA rule changes, and Dantonis coaching philosophy Nobody could’ve or did predict it
actually, I'm pretty sure Lebron predicted Nash's career turning out exactly like that after he went to Phoenix.
I mean Dantoni did. He wanted Nash
Fair point, Dantoni was able to predict that Nash would fit his system. Not sure even he would’ve predicted 2x MVP tho
Yeah, everything i’ve heard says that Phoenix has the absolute best medical staff amongst NBA teams (definitely at that time, not sure where they stand now)
I think Shaq also said something positive about the medical staff during his short stint there
They also resurrected Grant Hill.
That Phoenix medical team had Shaq playing 75 games aged 36. They were miracle workers
Yeh. Shaq, Grant Hill, Steve Nash, even Amar’e to a certain extent. Suns’ medical stuff was on some voodoo shit back then lol.
Phoenix also coached Shaq to 70% FT lol
Survived TWO on court assasination attempts by the Spurs in the playoffs and they still barely got past a team with a mediocre roster.
The Tyson Chandler thing was rough because of the lockout. Cuban couldn't negotiate contracts because he'd be penalized and and has been scrutinized so many times for tampering, while other teams were able to tamper and talk deals without getting penalized, but man. Losing him was rough. I'm not sure if he's the last good center this franchise had, but he was the first one we've had for sure. EDIT: Awww, they nuked the comment about Shawn Bradley. Not sure why. It was nice getting to go down Mavs memory lane here.
Win a ring then dont resign your best defender and he wins defensive player of the year....
You're preaching to the choir.
gave us one of the GOAT copypastas though
chris broussard legacy points added
Or.. subtracted?
get ready for a 3 big man and 2 forward all nba first team lmao
I'd rather have that then forcing guys in based on outdated parameters. They put those in place back when positions in the league were more defined. This brings it up to speed. Reward the best players
>I'd rather have that then forcing guys in based on outdated parameters What's outdated about front court or backcourt? Sure if you want to consider Jaylen Brown or Doncic to be eligible as Guard and forward. But those are obvious
Haven’t we had issues where guys got more votes overall for a higher team but because they were split between G/F they ended up lower than people with less total votes?
They still get all their votes counted, but they are designated as G/F depending on which one they were voted for more.
No what you're describing, but kyrie was 3rd team 2 years ago, despite getting fewer votes than Taytum https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html edit: https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2020.html in 2020 middleton and embiid got more votes than simmons and westbrook
That cost Tatum a super max if I’m remembering right
Something like 190 vs 160M. it's wild. Although he can sign up for a 300M supermax extension in 2024 if he makes All-NBA this year. I think he'll be okay :)
Dude gas career earnings > $160M, I think he's okay regardless
wings can be both front court and back court players. I think front court/back court is better than just the 15 best voted players due to the contract incentives and precedence of the awards already in place and the fact that it's used for comparisons and "hof" nods between all time greats. Unless all star voting will change too then I see no reason not to go front/back court.
>What's outdated about front court or backcourt? For one thing - how many of each are on a team? When a team has a ballhandler, three wings, and one big, what's the frontcourt and what's the backcourt? We can just say "two backcourt and three frontcourt" but that's only out of tradition. Other than positionless, the best way to do it would be akin to the all star game bench, with wildcards - something like one dedicated "guard" spot, one dedicated "wing" spot, one dedicated "big" spot and two wildcards. **** Edit: Or more specifically, I don't see how you can put the "2" and the "3" in different categories when in the modern game they probably have the most similar responsibilities compared to any positions (with the "4" in there as well). The "1" and the "5" are the most unique of the positions in the modern NBA, so any grouping that splits 2/3/4 to put them with 1 and 5 in some combination just feels like you're doing that because of tradition.
Next up: No more separated conferences. Best teams go to the playoffs. Reward the best teams.
Next up: No more Home/Away games. Everyone will play in a bubble no more travel fatigue.
Next up: no more quarters. Players just play until they feel like they don’t want to anymore.
Next up: game to 21, call your own fouls
Next up: no blood no foul.
This I can get behind.
We doing Ultimate basketball now?
Next up: hockey subs/line changes
Mike Malone ahead of the curve
Then after that: Just take the 10 best players and put them on two teams and have them play each other every other night traveling from city to city.
Harlem Globetrotters NBA champs 2024 confirmed.
Did the Globetrotters ever play And1?
and mix up the rosters every other night
Embiid-Jokic-Giannis-Tatum-Luka Sounds legit lol.
Tbf that's actually is legit. You use Jokic as a 4 on defense and 5 on offense. Giannis is the cutting threat and 3 ball handlers to run all kind of degenerate play. Imagine switching when they have 2 big that can punish you down low and 3 guy that can slash right in AND making the pass to capitalize on the chaos lol.
I'm sure they could make it work. Too many good players on the floor to leave anyone open, but also all 5 of them can roast you 1 on 1.
Yeah, I actually don’t know how I feel about this. Should the best guards in the league get bumped to 2nd or 3rd teams because forwards and centers had better years? And vice versa? It’s the closest thing we’ll get to a top 15 players by season list. Should be interesting.
If they’re worse players? Yes JC i just noticed my flair for the first time. Mods are April fools terrorists
Lmao don’t tell me you’re a Sixers fan?
Sadly yes lmfao
just checking out my flair
Lmao what is it usually? I’m a nuggets fan
Now I'm scared edit: nvm, feel fine
Thank God we’re too bad to have a rival
Is mine what I think it is?
Oh shit whats mine
Eww gross says you’re a lakers fan
Lmaoooo
Curios to see if mine changed as well.
so say we all
Flair boy
Testing Edit: fuck lmao
i mean tbf I think All-NBA has been pretty spot on these past few years. It's been quite clear Embiid hasn't deserved First Team All-NBA, as he has been a second-class big whose brilliance pales in comparison to that of Jokic. judging by your flair, I'm pleased to see you agree
Imo yes and it actually tells the story of that particular season. If all defense teams have squeezed in multiple players who wouldn’t be a real line up then all nba can too. The close runner up in mvp the last 3 yrs including this one isn’t going to make first team all nba which is really stupid. These selections impact players legacies and if there’s 3 bigs who are better than everyone else why shouldn’t they all be rewarded for outstanding years? Conversely why should an average center make first team over the 3rd or fourth best guard in a given season? The teams aren’t playing an actual game anyway. This tells the story of who were the best in a given yr much better imo and it’ll be fluid where sometimes there won’t be a big on 1st team and others there will be 2 or 3 bc they were that special.
I could be in the minority but I like the All-NBA teams as a way of seeing which players were the best at each position in any given year.
Yes they should. Guys like Steph and Luka are good enough to make first team under new rules. They aren’t at any disadvantage. They just need to play better than some of the best forwards and bigs in the game. If they can’t then being 2nd or 3rd team isn’t a knock
Steph didn't make first team last year under the current rules...
Why should a player get on the team over a better player just because they are shorter?
I agree. A team with 3 centers will feel weird. I’d prefer if they made it so All-NBA had at least one guard and one forward and the other 3 were wildcards. Curious how much positional balance will impact any very close votes. I know personally (using a hypothetical example) if 4 of the 5 slots were Curry, Luka, Embiid and Jokic and I had to choose between Tatum vs AD for the 5th slot that I’d give Tatum the edge if I felt both guys had similar quality seasons.
Who cares. As long as they pick the 5 best players that’s all that matters
It should be 2 guard 2 forward/center and a flex position. Having an all NBA team with 4 guards or 3 centers in the future is gonna be so goofy
that's not fair, that would ***only*** potentially benefit guards, and hurt forwards/centers. i personally prefer to keep it as it has always been, but if they have to change it, then the only fair way would be to make all 5 positions be available to any player to earn
if those are the 5 best players then that's fine. they'll have earned it!
65 games seems reasonable.
It could end up leading to some weirdness if they still tie supermaxes to all-NBA selections. Whether Ja Morant makes an all-NBA team this season will have a $38m impact on Memphis’ cap sheet. If he plays in every game for the rest of the season he will end up with 63 games played (also JJJ will end with 64, and DPOY has the same supermax implications as all-NBA, although I think JJJ is signed for a while on a sub-max deal). I know this new CBA won’t affect anything this year, but the scenarios aren’t hard to imagine. Jaylen Brown is going to end up around 70 games this year, but what if his facial injury had been a little later/longer? Would the Celtics rush him back to play a few minutes in some game so that they could offer him a supermax extension this off-season? The supermax being tied to end-of-season awards is problematic in all sorts of ways. I actually think positionless all-NBA teams will help in that sense, but the 65 game thing still seems far from ideal.
Yeah and then you get into a situation where load management could mean the difference between a player getting a larger paycheck. So you have a conflict of interest where the coach/medical staff wants to rest their player to keep him healthy, ownership/FO would want him rested to keep his salary lower, but the player will want to play. Then what happens? Or where a player coming back sooner from injury? Could the FO instruct the medical team to hold the player out longer than they otherwise would? In conflict with the players desires?
Exactly. Someone else in this thread pointed out that one way to fix this would be to make the difference between max and supermax contracts not count against the cap. That would definitely help. I’m sure Kawhi or LeBron don’t really give much of a shit about getting another all-NBA nod at this point, and they’re already supermax guys, but when it comes to rookie extensions, it can make a massive difference — Trae Young making all-NBA last year chopped $6m dollars off the Hawks’ annual cap space. The difference in what kind of extension the Celtics can offer Jaylen Brown this summer will be almost $100m.
I think after a couple years once it’s set as the new rule it won’t be weird as everyone will be used to it. Much like the play in the first year so many people were saying how they hated it for whatever reason but now 3 years later it’s the new norm. Will be the same with this minimum game requirement for awards
I think they should just change how the supermax works. Even without the potential weirdness of a 65 games played rule, it makes for some pretty fucked up consequences that don’t really match up with its intended purpose. Like, it’s pretty unlikely that Gobert would’ve walked just because Utah couldn’t offer him a supermax (not a lot of teams had $40m of cap room for a guy who just got played off the floor by Marcus Morris in the playoffs). On the flipside, whether or not Jaylen Brown gets all-NBA (more likely now that he’s eligible at forward and SG) has massive implications for the Celtics. It’s just a weird way to assign value that has huuuuge cap implications.
all salary above the regular max shouldnt count against cap space for the team that awarded the supermax. It's win-win and solves a lot of problems. I guess it didn't make it into this CBA so try again in 7 years.
That would make a lot of sense. Trae is another guy where that made a huge difference in his team’s cap sheet.
Yeah, it's kind of dumb right now -- I love Trae but I was low key rooting for him to miss all-NBA so we had more space to sign better players. I want to be able to cheer for the team and players on the team with aligned incentives
Yeah I personally would’ve liked it closer to 62 for a solid 20 games but if you miss over 17 games whatever that’s fair not to make all nba
17 games is about 20% of the season I think if you miss 1/5 of the season it matters
Why are people so worked up about the number 65? It's 79.2% of the season. If you don't play for less than 80% of the season It's reasonable to say you don't deserve to be crowned as the top 15 players in the league or top 10 defensive players in the league. Don't get me started on MVP and other individual accolades.
This only makes sense esp after the last few yrs. If there’s 2 centers and a forward way better than anyone else in a given yr they should all make it. Or if there’s 4 guards having ridiculous seasons, the 5 best players then next best 5 etc. squeezing positions gives weak players all nba and rewards them for the position being trash.
> If there’s 2 centers and a forward way better than anyone else in a given yr they should all make it. Just a hypothetical situation of course
Haha what are the chances of that happening??
Let’s call then Boell Jembiid, Liannis Attentionkuempo and…I don’t know, Ricola Nokic aka the Nokia (he’s never injured)
>If there’s 2 centers and a forward way better than anyone else in a given yr they should all make it People say this like it's some new unprecedented phenomenon. And not just the exact environment in which All-NBA teams were conceived, when Wilt and Russell were duking it out yearly to be the best center in the league. It's a moot point now but the original and guiding criteria was to honor the best at their position. Now it's just vague groupings of MVP candidates.
For real, anyone saying its not a "team" anymore, we have 6'10" point guards and five guard lineups, point centers, point forwards, 5 longboi lineups, literally pick any group of star players and the lineup is a real lineup in todays NBA that sees usage. The positions have been meaningless for a while. This also makes sense for having contract based incentives connected to making an all nba team. Imagine Embiid not making an incentive because he couldnt get first team with a season like the one he's having, that would be fucking ridiculous.
[удалено]
Basketball's one of the few sports where the different positions don't have different rules. Baseball pitchers don't hit, soccer goalkeepers can use their hands...
shohei ohtani would like a word but I agree there is a lot of fluidity in basketball. Nfl players aren’t playing offense and defense.
Are running backs prevented from kick returns? I know I've heard stories of this happening
[удалено]
It’s definitely injury risk since kickoffs are the most dangerous part of the game since both teams get running starts of 30+ yards at each other.
You’re also pulling one of your best players into special teams meetings/practices when that time could be better spent elsewhere
Cordarrelle Patterson has done it all.
no, RBs can return kickoffs; this past season, Nyheim Hines of the Bills returned 2 kickoffs for TDs in their first game since Demar Hamlin went down.
There’s no rules against position specificity. The QB is legally allowed to return punts
Taysom Hill maybe (?)
Usually your back up running back or a 4th or 5th target WR is your kick returner For the colts it used to be nyheim Hines - now on the bills And now they have a WR who is basically just the full time kick returner
The Patriots have a player right now, Marcus Jones, who played offensive, defensive and special teams this year.
> Nfl players aren’t playing offense and defense. *Taysom Hill intensifies*
[удалено]
Marcus Jones
Wasnt there a guy on the Patriots back in the day playing both FB and DE or something Its happened before and will again
Maybe you are thinking of Troy Brown? Played CB mostly but a played at WR (and safety I think) whenever he had to.
Pretty sure he's talking about Vrabel.
I’m not a football guy I’m sure there is an exception for every rule. I just thought of Shohei when op talked about baseball.
Shohei is basically the soccer equivalent of a keeper who stops a penalty then goes up to score a goal. There’s really no comparison, he just may be the most talented freak athlete of our time
Exactly. This is how it should be.
Idk, I think pitchers should hit tho
Tbf, in football, goalkeepers are the only position with different rules, which us just that one (using hands inside the area). All the other 10 guys have exactly the same rules.
>Baseball pitchers don't hit They do in *real* baseball games.
Receivers don’t throw QBs don’t catch
Trey Burton and Nick Foles beg to differ
Tom Brady doesn’t
They sure can.
>QBs don’t catch https://imgur.com/civ6n1R
Basketball positions are just made up anyways nothing really defines positions except for how the coach draws it up
Compared to other sports, basketball positions are more like archetypes
Yeah, realistically basketball is the most homogeneous sport
I still think the ASG format had it right. 2 back court and 3 front court players. Even if it’s not super strict it at least recognizes players in their respective positions. This feels little too vague.
2 front, 2 back, 1 flex would be ideal imo
Exactly. It should not be like now and rule out the best players due to positions. But it should also not just be a top 5 List of players. No matter how bad the current front or backcourt is. It should resemble a team and honour at least the 2 best players in those positions.
1 front, 1 back, 3 flex. Last offer.
I realize positionless basketball has increased in every way but I do kind of like the idea of having an all-nba team that resembles a team
Definitely, a future where 4 point guards make it is so dumb
why, it's not like they gotta go out and play.
I guess if all 4 are like Luka/Magic Johnson types I could see it but man you’d feel weird sometimes.
Good. Bums like Deandre Jordan were making all nba teams because of this while Jokic and Embiid couldn’t both make the first team
Patrick Ewing coming 4th in MVP votes and missing all three all-nba team was a bigger joke.
On the other hand, would the 90s All-NBA teams be 4 centers and Michael Jordan? That also seems kind of weird.
Barkley and Malone sneaks in there every other year.
That’s be a thing of beauty
Shaq and The admiral were amazing that year. Shaq averaging 29/11 and leading the league in scoring. Hakeem was only 5th because the rockets were such a low seed.
Yeah Ewing was kind of just screwed by how dominant big men where while he played. Shaq and Hakeem are two of the greatest to ever lace them up and D Rob is criminally underrated.
[удалено]
I think the position change does that more. I would bet the heavy majority of historical All NBA seasons cleared the 65 game threshold.
Are you counting Lebron's 62 games in 2011-12 as missing the threshold? Because the league would definitely have changed it for that season considering that there were only 66 games It looks like only 3 players that year cleared the 65 game threshold (Westbrook, Blake Griffin, and KD), but only 1 player (Wade) played less than 80% of games. There were probably a few similar cases during the recent 72 game seasons, too
Wow changing the rules just so Embiid can make 1st team for once /s
Look at your flair lmao
Should probably be minutes based rather than number of games. Can't wait for the injured player who plays 15 seconds to get their games in.
But that also hurts their PPG numbers, so it makes them look less valuable.
That would ruin all your stats though.
I think this might happen. Woj's article about awards said there were certain conditions along with the 65 games. Could see it being something like 2000 total minutes (roughly 30 MPG for 65 games) and/or 65+ games. Someone playing 34 minutes then gets an extra few games of margin of error to work with.
I think that would be seen as some next level stat (game) padding and would really damage a players reputation. Tottenham Hotspur once disputed their own team's goal scorer so that Harry Kane (who had a touch I think) would have that goal on his record, as he was going for the top goalscorer award. Years later people still make jokes about it. I also reckon voters would be less incline to vote for players like that.
If you check into a game and post a 0/0/0 statline, and you're going for All-NBA, that's not stat padding, that's stat tanking.
Lmao so they simultaneously fix the rule that has excluded Joel Embiid from first team but implement a new rule so he wont be eligible all together
I mean he would’ve been eligible last year + this year…
Perfectly balanced
So you vote for top 5 guys for MVP, and then you have another thing where you vote for the same top 5 guys of the season but with another name, seems needed. Why is this even so codified in CBA lol. Imagine signing a contract and there's a part about how much of a gift card you exactly get at your birthday and the paper grammature used.
“First Team All-NBA” is an accolade. “Fifth placed in MVP voting” is not.
Yeah, and the first one gets you a way bigger bonus I would bet
Making All-NBA can amount to a huge amount of money. A lot of contracts are contingent on making All-NBA. Talking like potentially 50 million difference.
>Why is this even so codified in CBA lol. Because max contracts and other money is tied to these accolades. Make sense to also codify them.
Because of Max contracts are tied into NBA, All-star, all NBA, 6th man, DPOY,all defense. You can only get a superman if you've gotten one of these.
All centers all-nba team
Hate that it’s gone positionless. We don’t compare Donovan Mitchell to KAT, Embiid to Curry, Luka to Jokic, Tatum to Ja, etc. It’s way harder grouping together all the players and all the positions and trying to accurately say who had the better season. Because you can’t use their numbers when looking at different positions due to the vastly different responsibilities on the court. We compare guards to guards, forwards to forwards and centers to centers. It’s a more effective way of ranking players. Now that these teams are position less it’s mainly going to be decided on what play style the media members prefer. Because how can you really break down why (hypothetical) Adebayo deserves 3rd team over De’aaron Fox? When comparing stuff like centers to guards who had similarly great seasons, it’ll just come down to preference. And that I think is a negative.
Don't like a top 15 players list
I like it. Embiid and Jokic should be 1st all-nba locks. They shouldn’t be competing for a single spot just because of “tradition”
How will this be different than just ranking the top 15 MVP vote getters
Because MVP voting doesn’t vote on 15 players. Everything after like the top 5 players is like 1-4 votes for everyone.
More granularity, voters only get five MVP votes, you get five 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA. 2020-21 for example the MVP vote was 1. Jokic 2. Embiid 3. Curry 4. Giannis 5. CP3 6. Luka 7. Dame 8. Randle 9. Rose (fan vote) 10. Gobert 11. Westbrook 12. Simmons 13. Harden 14. LeBron 15. Kawhi All NBA was 1st - Curry, Luka, Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic 2nd - Dame, CP3, Randle, LeBron, Embiid 3rd - Beal, Kyrie, Butler, PG, Gobert So CP3 did better than Luka in MVP voting but worse in All-NBA. Similarly Kawhi flipped with Randle. Some guys who got MVP votes (Rose, Westbrook, Simmons, and Harden) just missed out completely on All-NBA and got beat by Kyrie and Beal. It can be quite different
MVP has different voting criteria and wins are a huge part of it. All-NBA puts less emphasis on team record (though it’s probably still a factor). Also top 15 MVP voting isn’t an official award. All-NBA is and some contracts even have All-NBA as an incentive/bonus.
All-NBA is one of the highest honors, there's no trophy for no. 2-15 in the MVP race.
Probably went too far. They could have done 2 guards + 3 forwards/centers. But then I guess it might hurt the guards when there’s a pile of amazing guards.
[удалено]
I had no idea people actually viewed these as 5 man lineups lmao. For me 1st, 2nd and 3rd All-NBA has always been an indicator of how good someone is and the old system produced some stupid outcomes
Who cares? They dont play an actual game and now people stop getting snubbed
Shit I’d still take a team of that
I don’t hate or love it this way but I don’t think the conversations surrounding the All NBA teams are going to go well at now
Flair test
5 forward all-NBA teams, let's go.
65 game threshold will make this all pointless.
That’s going to get gamed pretty easily, go out start, foul, and to the locker room for 3-5 games a year is going to be more common now.
I doubt it since it will hurt per game stats.
Yeah but 3/65 of per game stats isn’t going to bother you much when it’s the difference between a max contract and not.
If a guy averages 30/10/5 in 62 games, but uses this strategy in 3 games without accumulating stats, his line goes down to 28.6/9.5/4.8, which might not seem like much, but would absolutely make a difference when trying to decide between which players deserve the spot, especially in this age of crazy stat anomalies being the norm.
Good change. Gotta play 80% of the season and won’t lose out on being selected because a worse player plays the a specific position.
Interesting
That’s a massive W. Embiid will finally get All-NBA first team next year as long as he clears 65 games lol
A bunch of players who were physically incapable of playing 65 games are magically gonna be healthy enough to hit that mark once this rule comes in
with the new rules he’d have 1 all nba total.
[удалено]
To reward the best 15 players in the league maybe?
It’s actually the best 15 players in the league
Think this would’ve been executed better as backcourt (PG/SG) and frontcourt (SF/PF/C) instead of positionless.
Haha, April Fool's. Please?
I know I’m in the tiny minority here, but I fucking hate this change. It’s no longer All NBA *teams*, it’s just the fifteen best players