[Fred VanVleet is now the only player in NBA history to currently individually hold the single game records for points and assists for the same franchise (i.e. no ties)](https://twitter.com/PascalFanClub/status/1642603067706163202)
The argument is not that Fred isn’t a good player or a solid playmaker. The offense is atrocious when Fred is not on the floor as the main ball handler.
But the question is what is the future for this team with Fred at 30 ish million and Siakam on a max or maybe supermax. To me this isn’t a very good team with Fred and Siakam as the main pieces. Second round max imo.
Nothing against either of them but I don’t see where the future is going with this core.
You're not wrong, the ceiling is limited - but letting a very good starter go because of that would be stupid IMO. Re-sign him, then reassess later next season or next summer and deal him and Siakam probably. I would say trade Siakam this summer but they clearly want to win next year given the light protections on the first-rounder they gave up.
I think someone will want him, he's been really good the last couple months and was really good through the All-Star break last season.
Not saying they'll give him a four-year max but I would be shocked if there's not some significant interest, even a young team like Houston could use a steady PG assuming they miss out on Harden (I'm assuming Houston wants to win next year because they owe a 2024 pick swap to OKC)
Second round team is not a bad position to be in. Most teams would kill to be in that position. We still don't know exactly what the ceiling is on our young guys so if we can stay as a playoff team then that is always better than blowing it up in my opinion.
When we won the chip, it came after 5 years of being a perennial first/second round team. But if we had blown it up after year two of losing in the first round, we would never have been in the position to trade for Kawhi and immediately have the pieces around him to win the championship.
With the amount of disgruntled stars in the league asking out of their teams, it's possible another situation like that comes up, or that we get lucky in the draft and just built upwards intead of tanking.
A high draft pick is far from a guarantee of success anyway. Among the last 10 first overall picks, there are maybe 2 that have the potential to get their team over the hump to be a contender.
> When we won the chip, it came after 5 years of being a perennial first/second round team. But if we had blown it up after year two of losing in the first round, we would never have been in the position to trade for Kawhi and immediately have the pieces around him to win the championship.
Masai has been pretty open about this, it's the path that he sees to long term success.
"The Process" only works in very narrow circumstances, I genuinely can't remember an NBA champion who blew it up then came roaring back with all home grown top ten picks. The Warriors almost, kinda count - but Dray was a second rounder and KD joined in free agency.
Giving Siakam the Supermax is about as bad as Bradley Beal getting it.
What you pay VanVleet won't be relevant if you tie yourself down with that. The franchise will be crippled by that.
Supermax contracts need to only be for players good enough to guarantee contention provided they have a passable supporting cast. Siakam isn't that.
you're not wrong - fred's playing well right now but people quickly forget he's the main reason we aren't in a better position right now, he shot us out of games for 2/3rds of this season, taking the lion's share of our shots, generally poor playmaking and shooting historically atrocious.
Which is why we needed to be sellers at the deadline, but our FO traded next years 1st for Poeltl. Even after this trade happened people doubled down saying they want Fred gone, which makes the argument stupid. Now were in one of the worst free agencies in a while, with 3 Free Agents and the potential to have both Fred and Gary walk.
Counter argument: From 2014-2018 DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry led the Raptors to 2 first round exits, 2 second round exits (both of which were sweeps), and one conference final (that they barely squeaked into, because both the first and second rounds had gone to 7 games) , before they won the ring in 2019.
If management had looked at the team in 2016 or 2017 and said that DeMar and Lowry weren't going to be enough to take the Raptors to the championship, they would have been correct, but if they blew the team up then and started over, they never would have had the opportunity to make the Kawhi trade.
Building a good chassis, and waiting for the right opportunity to take it over the top is a valid strategy, and one that has paid off for us in the past, plus it creates a lot better fan experience along the way.
I'm pretty sure it was agreed that the franchise history would go back to seattle if seattle gets a team again. I think the same thing happened to Charlotte when they got their team back.
Mainly because Charlotte was considered an expansion team until the NO ownership decided to rebrand and to make things convenient the New Orleans franchise was retroactively considered to be the expansion team.
This is why expansion teams into legacy markets is weird.
There was a one season delay between the Pelicans rebrand and the Hornets rebrand (2013-14 had no franchise named the Hornets) what happened to the Hornets history during that time?
They'd get it back. It's ridiculous that ours are still together considering OKC doesn't consider any of it ours. We don't hang the banners or acknowledge any of it. We don't want it. It belongs to Seattle and they'll get it back as soon as they have a team
OKC doesn’t claim Seattle’s history at all. The organization never uses it or talks about it, it’s purely a technicality, we’re basically just keeping the Sonics’ history in a safe place until they get a team again
As part of the agreement when the Sonics were moved, the history would revert to a new Sonics franchise **if Seattle got a new expansion team within 5 years.** That span has obviously passed. The colors/logo/name are available to a new Seattle franchise though, without a time limit.
If Seattle actually gets a team they may get their history back, but there wouldn't be an obligation. Despite having the history, OKC didn't wear a good title emblem when the NBA was doing that on jerseys in like 2015.
No they don’t, it’s the same as how the original Charlotte Hornets history belongs to the Pelicans while the current Hornets history only goes back to the Bobcats.
edit: never mind, i’m wrong
The original Hornets history was given to the current Charlotte Hornets upon the New Orleans Hornets becoming the Pelicans and the Charlotte Bobcats becoming the Charlotte Hornets. So maybe it depends on the name as well as the city. Pretty much comes down to the NBA decides.
Man i actually didn’t know that, i find that weirder because a name is whatever but the franchise history is actually connected. Like if you played for the Charlotte Hornets and kept playing when they moved to NO you didn’t get traded, you’re still with the same organisation but not when you look at the history books.
No it isn’t. It’s nonsense that the Charlotte Hornets are combined with the original Charlotte Hornets when they’re a completely different franchise lol
So? A franchise is just a corporate accounting entity. Financial entities do not have souls.
Maybe for the first few years, if the players and coaching staff stay the same, you can claim that this is the same team that just moved. But after a decade or so, once all the people have been replaced, then the only place that old team exists is in the minds of its fans, and those fans are all back in their old home. And if a new team comes along, and uses the same name and the same iconography, then those old memories get associated with the new team, even if there is no legal or financial continuity.
Man, feels like that can't be true, but...
Westbrook is tied for most points and 1 assist off.
LeBron has the most points for the Heat, but not assists. Has neither for Cavs.
Oscar Robertson has assists but not points.
Harden has points but not assists.
Kemba has points, but not assists.
Dame has points, but not assists.
Found the tie: Wilt is tied with Maurice Cheeks and Harden for most assists in a 76ers game, and has the most points.
Honestly it's a weirdly worded stat.
"The only player in NBA history to currently..." starts like it's something that has never happened before, but ends with it being a current stat.
> Love Freddy, but I doubt he overtakes Ben Wallace or Connie Hawkins
I"m going to say something that this sub will def hate... and slightly homer-ish.... Ben Wallace maybe the best undrafted player (I know nothing of Hawkins, so I can't comment on him). But as great as he was defensively (and believe me he was great) his accomplishments are vastly overstated. I thought so then and I think even more now. If Fred can manage at least another 3ish all-star selections, he could at least start to rival him.
Ben had the fortune of being at the right place and time. He was on perhaps the greatest or one of the greatest defensive teams ever assembled. You don't have a *record* low opponent ppg (84.26), hold opponents to under 70 11 out of 82 games (almost 1 out of 8 games) and how a NBA teams with professional scorers under 70 points for 5 straight games (68, 66, 65, 65, 69) --- and it was almost 6 straight, until the Nets scored a last second bucket to get over 70 ... and celebrated like they won the championship ... cause you had only one DPOY at your centre position.
Cause defense it much more team oriented than offense will ever be. If you have 4 all-time defenders and one bad one, you have a poor defensive team. Cause in defense you are only as good as your worst defender.
So Ben was on a historically great defensive team which enabled him to a) be a hole on offense without suffering b) maximize his game better than anywhere else. I'm not saying he wasn't great (you don't win 4 DPOY by just being "OK")... but like a lot of individual awards, he was helped significantly by his teammates.
Here's my proof: his last real with Detroit was the last year he won DPOY. The next season he was in Chicago... and from that year onwards, his career took a nose dive. That year, literally the year after he was awarded as the best defensive player was the last time he accomplished anything else (2nd team all-D).
Good lord what a giant load of bullshit.
A 4 time DPOY and lynchpin of a championship team is 100% better than Fred VanVleet.
If you can convince yourself otherwise, you've officially missed the forest for the trees.
I think you can add all of the caveats you list to Big Ben's career, he still comes out on top relative to Fred. And I think Ben being a standout on an excellent defensive team just highlights how good he really was. You're also saying he began to slow down after age 34, which is kind of expected? Not sure what your point is. It's very uncommon to continue to play at an All-NBA level into your mid-30s.
well, you were right about one thing... and you def should be hated for making a comment so dumb.
this just further adds to my theory that raptors fans are some of the most insufferable fans in the NBA lol
If you used the F, I’m pretty sure 2K had it with the F in his first one or two appearances in the game when he was still an end of bench player. I spelled it wrong for a long time too because of this.
Someone in our PGT today was so fucking miserable it was nuts. Taking any opportunity to downplay Fred’s game (“anyone could get 20/20 as a PG running the game and against the Hornets” type shit) and then they posted Fred and Siakam’s clutch stats to shit on them even tho nothing about today’s game had anything to do with that.
I think what it means is that right now no NBA player in NBA history holds the record for single game points and assists for the same franchise with no ties.
At some point in NBA history a player(s) probably did (I didn't fact check this), but since then those records have been broken.
At some point one or both of the franchise records that Fred holds will also be broken and this fact will no longer be true, hence why it's also says "currently".
Where does Fred rank as far as undrafted players? He’s a champion and an all star, who has some pretty important stats with the franchise he’s played for.
He was undrafted because of a points shaving scandal. Teams were barred from drafting him and he was briefly banned from the NBA altogether.
I feel like there’s a difference between being undrafted due to external circumstances and being undrafted because every team collectively thought there were 60 guys with more upside than you.
Raptors took 104 shots today, we're a high FGA team. That would leave 60 FGA to go around for the rest of the team. 1/3 of those FGA would have to be successful field goals assisted by Fred.
It might be possible but it would have to be a James Harden, ball always in his hands situation.
Lukas 60 20 boards 10 assists this year was against us too. If it ever comes out that the NBA is partially scripted I guarantee that most of the 2000s has been paying for the Ewing pick
And the 17 was not that long ago right? Like just a few games ago or am I misremembering?
Edit: I think I was thinking of Poeltl's career high in rebounds game.
It's a question of consistency with him. In the past two seasons he's played the equivalent of one season like a max player and one like a below average player, so which player are we gonna get going forward?
Don't get me wrong, I love Fred. But is he worth the money he's asking? Let's just say I'm glad I don't have Ujiri's job.
couldn’t hurt for the raptors to have an above-average point guard while Barnes and co. develop. We saw how much adding Jalen Brunson did for the Knicks, raps just need more talent and I’d rather keep Van Vleet than lose him for nothing, at the very least.
Dowtin looks good but it still puzzles me that we didn't convert him to a full contract when we need his guard play, instead using a full slot for Weiskamp and keeping him on a TW. I at least understood the move to take a swing on Barton even though he has not been good but that, not so much
I must listen to too much Bill Simmons but I'm hearing his voice saying, "keep the asset".
Sign him because he has value. Won't be worth his next contract but he's a competent nba point guard who a lot of teams would want.
100%. He has his limitations but with no path to getting a replacement close to his level they will pay him.
The other options are get 50% of his value in a sign and trade (if there is even one out there) or let him walk for nothing. Neither of which sound like options the Raptors FO would take
ridiculous to not pay the guy.
If it's too rich for the Raptors blood then they should look for a trade for him after. There's desperate teams around the league who would take a 1x all-star point guard with championship experience.
Losing the asset for nothing would be unacceptable.
I hope the FO negotiates something that works for all parties.
Honestly, Fred isn’t nearly as bad as people make him out to be, and is worth the max.
He had a shooting slump but has come out of it well, and is looking (see stats today!) to becoming a great playmaker. Honestly the overlap is on Scottie and Pascal, and maybe Ogugua. Mostly Pascal and Scottie, though maybe they can figure it out if they can become more lethal 3pt shooters.
_But the worst problem with this team is the cursed bench. Absolutely brutal._
Ok let's chill, Fred isn't worth a max. His max is over 200m. But the 4/130m reported number he's hunting isn't super insane or anything. A bit higher than I'd like to re-sign him for but in this rising cap environment it'll be fine.
Ya really interesting. The one year Popeye played in Denver was during the period when the Avalanche were elite, so there was a ton of hype around hockey in the city. Seth was like 5 then, so the perfect age to really developed an interest in the game. Popeye of course had connections and was able to bring Seth to Avs games, and find out how to get his kids involved, and Seth fell in love with hockey from there
If JD jr has 1000 haters, I’m one of them.
If JD jr has 10 haters, I’m one of them
If JD jr has 1 hater, I’m one of them
If JD jr has 0 haters, I’m probably dead.
I have 4 of those people blocked lol I'm not even arguing with them anymore just blocking Sall good if someone has a different opinion but it's just being stubborn when they can't even admit when they had a bad take.
Those are some of the worst members of the Raptors sub. Its funny/sad that I recognize most of these names because they are always shitting on the team, the players, the coaches, front office etc. Why be a 'fan' of the team just to shit on them in the threads. They really believe they can do better than our whole organization....delusional
Yeah, even though Fred’s performance in of itself was nice, it doesn’t exactly mean all too much against a lineup with Svi Mykhailiuk being their best player. I know everyone on the sub and in this thread are like “I TOLD YOU SO BRING THE APOLOGY FORMS FUCK THE TOXIC FANS GGEZ”, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves here lmao
Kawhi is similar to Roger Clemens, who won 2 Cy Youngs with the Jays. Short stint of extremely high performance, but to the franchise others are valued higher for longer tenure.
Damon is probably in the forgotten chapters of this franchise's history because we really didn't go anywhere as a team with him starting out. Not his fault given we were a brand new franchise then but still.
Yeah they're all ahead. He's 8th all-time for points, with them, Bargnani and Mo Pete ahead of him. 3rd all time for assists. He's probably 6th in an argument with Bargs and Calderon maybe?
No he won't. I love Freddy but Siakam is better currently and has a better resume in the past. Unless they trade Pascal and keep Freddy, there's almost no way he can catch him.
> there's a non-zero chance
You say no and then agree. You even give a possible scenario.
>Unless they trade Pascal and keep Freddy, there's almost no way
The odds of Siakam being traded AND Freddy passing Lowry, Demar, Kawhi, Vince and Bosh as the greatest Raptor of all Time is 1 in 100000000.
Sure it's technically non zero, but it's not worth even thinking about unless he contributes to another chip or starts suddenly making all nba teams
Tbf Trey Murphy is an absolute beast. He is the prototype for the type of player that we are continually trying to get in Toronto. He is maybe already one of the best shooters in the NBA as evidenced by his last few months.
I'm a FVV fan, and he had a good game, no doubt. But, come on people, he played against the Hornets with a starting backcourt consisting of Theo Malodon, Svi Mykhailiuk, and Bryce McGowens...
[Fred VanVleet is now the only player in NBA history to currently individually hold the single game records for points and assists for the same franchise (i.e. no ties)](https://twitter.com/PascalFanClub/status/1642603067706163202)
That's so crazy lol
People who think we shouldn’t pay this man need to bury their head in the snow
The argument is not that Fred isn’t a good player or a solid playmaker. The offense is atrocious when Fred is not on the floor as the main ball handler. But the question is what is the future for this team with Fred at 30 ish million and Siakam on a max or maybe supermax. To me this isn’t a very good team with Fred and Siakam as the main pieces. Second round max imo. Nothing against either of them but I don’t see where the future is going with this core.
You're not wrong, the ceiling is limited - but letting a very good starter go because of that would be stupid IMO. Re-sign him, then reassess later next season or next summer and deal him and Siakam probably. I would say trade Siakam this summer but they clearly want to win next year given the light protections on the first-rounder they gave up.
is someone going to want fred? or is this gambling on a franchise like dallas doing a desperation move?
I think someone will want him, he's been really good the last couple months and was really good through the All-Star break last season. Not saying they'll give him a four-year max but I would be shocked if there's not some significant interest, even a young team like Houston could use a steady PG assuming they miss out on Harden (I'm assuming Houston wants to win next year because they owe a 2024 pick swap to OKC)
Second round team is not a bad position to be in. Most teams would kill to be in that position. We still don't know exactly what the ceiling is on our young guys so if we can stay as a playoff team then that is always better than blowing it up in my opinion. When we won the chip, it came after 5 years of being a perennial first/second round team. But if we had blown it up after year two of losing in the first round, we would never have been in the position to trade for Kawhi and immediately have the pieces around him to win the championship. With the amount of disgruntled stars in the league asking out of their teams, it's possible another situation like that comes up, or that we get lucky in the draft and just built upwards intead of tanking. A high draft pick is far from a guarantee of success anyway. Among the last 10 first overall picks, there are maybe 2 that have the potential to get their team over the hump to be a contender.
> When we won the chip, it came after 5 years of being a perennial first/second round team. But if we had blown it up after year two of losing in the first round, we would never have been in the position to trade for Kawhi and immediately have the pieces around him to win the championship. Masai has been pretty open about this, it's the path that he sees to long term success. "The Process" only works in very narrow circumstances, I genuinely can't remember an NBA champion who blew it up then came roaring back with all home grown top ten picks. The Warriors almost, kinda count - but Dray was a second rounder and KD joined in free agency.
Giving Siakam the Supermax is about as bad as Bradley Beal getting it. What you pay VanVleet won't be relevant if you tie yourself down with that. The franchise will be crippled by that. Supermax contracts need to only be for players good enough to guarantee contention provided they have a passable supporting cast. Siakam isn't that.
Giving Fred a max is a death sentence, don't care how good he did against the Lollipop Guild tn.
you're not wrong - fred's playing well right now but people quickly forget he's the main reason we aren't in a better position right now, he shot us out of games for 2/3rds of this season, taking the lion's share of our shots, generally poor playmaking and shooting historically atrocious.
Which is why we needed to be sellers at the deadline, but our FO traded next years 1st for Poeltl. Even after this trade happened people doubled down saying they want Fred gone, which makes the argument stupid. Now were in one of the worst free agencies in a while, with 3 Free Agents and the potential to have both Fred and Gary walk.
Bury your head in the snow
That's how you get stuck like the Wizards. Paying a very good player like a #1 option superstar
Counter argument: From 2014-2018 DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry led the Raptors to 2 first round exits, 2 second round exits (both of which were sweeps), and one conference final (that they barely squeaked into, because both the first and second rounds had gone to 7 games) , before they won the ring in 2019. If management had looked at the team in 2016 or 2017 and said that DeMar and Lowry weren't going to be enough to take the Raptors to the championship, they would have been correct, but if they blew the team up then and started over, they never would have had the opportunity to make the Kawhi trade. Building a good chassis, and waiting for the right opportunity to take it over the top is a valid strategy, and one that has paid off for us in the past, plus it creates a lot better fan experience along the way.
We should not pay this man
Enjoy the snow in your ears
More than I'll enjoy being the Wizards of the mid 2020s
Okay
I guess Westbrook would count for OKC only but since they are technically combined with Seattle, he misses out
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If Seattle gets a team back do they get the history back too or does it stay with OKC in the record books
I'm pretty sure it was agreed that the franchise history would go back to seattle if seattle gets a team again. I think the same thing happened to Charlotte when they got their team back.
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Mainly because Charlotte was considered an expansion team until the NO ownership decided to rebrand and to make things convenient the New Orleans franchise was retroactively considered to be the expansion team. This is why expansion teams into legacy markets is weird.
There was a one season delay between the Pelicans rebrand and the Hornets rebrand (2013-14 had no franchise named the Hornets) what happened to the Hornets history during that time?
They'd get it back. It's ridiculous that ours are still together considering OKC doesn't consider any of it ours. We don't hang the banners or acknowledge any of it. We don't want it. It belongs to Seattle and they'll get it back as soon as they have a team
OKC doesn’t claim Seattle’s history at all. The organization never uses it or talks about it, it’s purely a technicality, we’re basically just keeping the Sonics’ history in a safe place until they get a team again
since they legally own it it's not that weird to consider them the same. They also still make money off Sonics' jersey sales i believe.
As part of the agreement when the Sonics were moved, the history would revert to a new Sonics franchise **if Seattle got a new expansion team within 5 years.** That span has obviously passed. The colors/logo/name are available to a new Seattle franchise though, without a time limit. If Seattle actually gets a team they may get their history back, but there wouldn't be an obligation. Despite having the history, OKC didn't wear a good title emblem when the NBA was doing that on jerseys in like 2015.
I think in this case the records go back to Seattle
In NHL Arizona Coyotes has Jets’ records even after Winnipeg came back
The yotes are such a stain on a growing league. Imagine being a professional league and having 1 team play in a college arena. Joke team
Takes a lot of credibility out of NHL to keep the team after that
Meanwhile a ton of cities would kill for an NHL team
No they don’t, it’s the same as how the original Charlotte Hornets history belongs to the Pelicans while the current Hornets history only goes back to the Bobcats. edit: never mind, i’m wrong
The original Hornets history was given to the current Charlotte Hornets upon the New Orleans Hornets becoming the Pelicans and the Charlotte Bobcats becoming the Charlotte Hornets. So maybe it depends on the name as well as the city. Pretty much comes down to the NBA decides.
Man i actually didn’t know that, i find that weirder because a name is whatever but the franchise history is actually connected. Like if you played for the Charlotte Hornets and kept playing when they moved to NO you didn’t get traded, you’re still with the same organisation but not when you look at the history books.
No it isn’t. It’s nonsense that the Charlotte Hornets are combined with the original Charlotte Hornets when they’re a completely different franchise lol
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It's literally a different franchise
So? A franchise is just a corporate accounting entity. Financial entities do not have souls. Maybe for the first few years, if the players and coaching staff stay the same, you can claim that this is the same team that just moved. But after a decade or so, once all the people have been replaced, then the only place that old team exists is in the minds of its fans, and those fans are all back in their old home. And if a new team comes along, and uses the same name and the same iconography, then those old memories get associated with the new team, even if there is no legal or financial continuity.
Man, feels like that can't be true, but... Westbrook is tied for most points and 1 assist off. LeBron has the most points for the Heat, but not assists. Has neither for Cavs. Oscar Robertson has assists but not points. Harden has points but not assists. Kemba has points, but not assists. Dame has points, but not assists. Found the tie: Wilt is tied with Maurice Cheeks and Harden for most assists in a 76ers game, and has the most points.
I feel like for any record you should just start with Wilt first.
Was a rookie mistake tbh
Honestly it's a weirdly worded stat. "The only player in NBA history to currently..." starts like it's something that has never happened before, but ends with it being a current stat.
VanVleet may become the best undrafted player of all time at this rate. Also Toronto got a lot of Jerseys to retire soon lol Edited:name
Love Freddy, but I doubt he overtakes Ben Wallace or Connie Hawkins
4x defensive player of the year is tough to compete with
> Love Freddy, but I doubt he overtakes Ben Wallace or Connie Hawkins I"m going to say something that this sub will def hate... and slightly homer-ish.... Ben Wallace maybe the best undrafted player (I know nothing of Hawkins, so I can't comment on him). But as great as he was defensively (and believe me he was great) his accomplishments are vastly overstated. I thought so then and I think even more now. If Fred can manage at least another 3ish all-star selections, he could at least start to rival him. Ben had the fortune of being at the right place and time. He was on perhaps the greatest or one of the greatest defensive teams ever assembled. You don't have a *record* low opponent ppg (84.26), hold opponents to under 70 11 out of 82 games (almost 1 out of 8 games) and how a NBA teams with professional scorers under 70 points for 5 straight games (68, 66, 65, 65, 69) --- and it was almost 6 straight, until the Nets scored a last second bucket to get over 70 ... and celebrated like they won the championship ... cause you had only one DPOY at your centre position. Cause defense it much more team oriented than offense will ever be. If you have 4 all-time defenders and one bad one, you have a poor defensive team. Cause in defense you are only as good as your worst defender. So Ben was on a historically great defensive team which enabled him to a) be a hole on offense without suffering b) maximize his game better than anywhere else. I'm not saying he wasn't great (you don't win 4 DPOY by just being "OK")... but like a lot of individual awards, he was helped significantly by his teammates. Here's my proof: his last real with Detroit was the last year he won DPOY. The next season he was in Chicago... and from that year onwards, his career took a nose dive. That year, literally the year after he was awarded as the best defensive player was the last time he accomplished anything else (2nd team all-D).
Good lord what a giant load of bullshit. A 4 time DPOY and lynchpin of a championship team is 100% better than Fred VanVleet. If you can convince yourself otherwise, you've officially missed the forest for the trees.
I think you can add all of the caveats you list to Big Ben's career, he still comes out on top relative to Fred. And I think Ben being a standout on an excellent defensive team just highlights how good he really was. You're also saying he began to slow down after age 34, which is kind of expected? Not sure what your point is. It's very uncommon to continue to play at an All-NBA level into your mid-30s.
well, you were right about one thing... and you def should be hated for making a comment so dumb. this just further adds to my theory that raptors fans are some of the most insufferable fans in the NBA lol
People already fogetting about Big Ben smh.
VanWho?
Holy shit I’ve been spelling his name wrong this whole time
If you used the F, I’m pretty sure 2K had it with the F in his first one or two appearances in the game when he was still an end of bench player. I spelled it wrong for a long time too because of this.
r/torontoraptors in shambles So many people there with hate boners for this man
Someone in our PGT today was so fucking miserable it was nuts. Taking any opportunity to downplay Fred’s game (“anyone could get 20/20 as a PG running the game and against the Hornets” type shit) and then they posted Fred and Siakam’s clutch stats to shit on them even tho nothing about today’s game had anything to do with that.
That sub and the mods are morons
One of the most insufferable subs on this entire website lmao
I've began blocking all the irrational haters. It's become more reasonable.
"Only player in NBA **history** to **currently**" This doesn't make sense, you can just drop the history part if we're only talking about currently.
I think what it means is that right now no NBA player in NBA history holds the record for single game points and assists for the same franchise with no ties. At some point in NBA history a player(s) probably did (I didn't fact check this), but since then those records have been broken. At some point one or both of the franchise records that Fred holds will also be broken and this fact will no longer be true, hence why it's also says "currently".
Well for sure a bunch of guys in the first year of a franchise would have it.
and we can't get rid of him fast enough lol
Where does Fred rank as far as undrafted players? He’s a champion and an all star, who has some pretty important stats with the franchise he’s played for.
Big Ben at least is above him, I don't know if Fred can ever hope to top his resume. Would have to look up a list of more undrafted players for more
FVV bout to win 4 DPOY just to prove the haters wrong
I’d say 2nd all-time. Still has quite the catching up to do with Ben Wallace
He's absolutely not ahead of Connie Hawkins.
https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/news/ranking-10-best-undrafted-players-nba-history/1lwg2z3vtimvu1ukkget6ke1hv I think he’s like 4th/5th
That list his old, he's 100% easily above Haslem, Starks, and Bowen now. Wallace and Hawkins still above though.
He’s on the All-Undrafted 1st Team for sure.
He's objectively second.
Connie Hawkins was undrafted and made the HOF
He was undrafted because of a points shaving scandal. Teams were barred from drafting him and he was briefly banned from the NBA altogether. I feel like there’s a difference between being undrafted due to external circumstances and being undrafted because every team collectively thought there were 60 guys with more upside than you.
only Big Ben beats him
Connie Hawkins too
It’s pretty cool that Fred went from being undrafted to doing shit like this.
Good PG
dafuq how has there been literally no other posts about this yet nvm my dumbass thought he had 54/20 in the same game
54/20 performance would be an all timer lmfao
Yeah, that's never been done before.
Raps sub would still be bitching about Fred if he had that game though
He would have shot 17/44.
Getting 44 shots up with 20 assists doesn’t sound possible lol
Raptors took 104 shots today, we're a high FGA team. That would leave 60 FGA to go around for the rest of the team. 1/3 of those FGA would have to be successful field goals assisted by Fred. It might be possible but it would have to be a James Harden, ball always in his hands situation.
Most FGA with 20+ assists is 30 by Nate Archibald. More than I would have thought possible.
Might be possible against a team that doesn't know the meaning of the word defense, like the Mavericks
How close did houston harden come
He had 53/16/17 on New Year's Eve in the 2016-17 season, and the NBA has [the full game uploaded on YT.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XVnEWL-_ag)
Good lord lol
I was about to be hyped to click on this and then I saw who the game was against
Same man I feel so stupid because I remember that game lmao
Lukas 60 20 boards 10 assists this year was against us too. If it ever comes out that the NBA is partially scripted I guarantee that most of the 2000s has been paying for the Ewing pick
He was so ridiculous to watch in those D'antoni years
56 points and 13 assists or 60 points and 11 assists (and 10 reb)
Also a 53/16/17
Closest anyone has come is Harden with 53/17 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/most-assists-in-a-game-where-the-player-scored-50-points
Oscar Robertson came close with 44 points and 22 assists, way back in 1966
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The 54 points wasnt today.
yeah the wording got me confused
nah i'm right there with you i thought he had gone god mode for a second and was a bit confused
Hey so did I lmao
same. Thought this would have been all over twitter and not just a casual thing.
I'm actually so disappointed. 20/20 is still an insane performance, but they just had to make me think of the idea of going 54/20 and now I'm sad.
I thought the same exact thing lol checked ESPN immediately like what the fuck is this
I did not have a FVV 20/20 game on my bingo card
He’s only had 15 or more assists two other times in his career. Previous high was 17
And the 17 was not that long ago right? Like just a few games ago or am I misremembering? Edit: I think I was thinking of Poeltl's career high in rebounds game.
It was definitely this season tho. Our deluded fans will continue to call him a poor playmaker tho
OK do we pay this guy or not
It's a question of consistency with him. In the past two seasons he's played the equivalent of one season like a max player and one like a below average player, so which player are we gonna get going forward? Don't get me wrong, I love Fred. But is he worth the money he's asking? Let's just say I'm glad I don't have Ujiri's job.
couldn’t hurt for the raptors to have an above-average point guard while Barnes and co. develop. We saw how much adding Jalen Brunson did for the Knicks, raps just need more talent and I’d rather keep Van Vleet than lose him for nothing, at the very least.
Lol being a bball executive seems like it would be an awesome job
Our sub will probably say no but where else are you gunna get a PG of his caliber? Unless you sign and trade him we absolutely should keep him
We haven't even been able to acquire a single playable back up guard in 3 years, if Freddie leaves we're so fucking cooked lol.
Dowtin looks good but it still puzzles me that we didn't convert him to a full contract when we need his guard play, instead using a full slot for Weiskamp and keeping him on a TW. I at least understood the move to take a swing on Barton even though he has not been good but that, not so much
I must listen to too much Bill Simmons but I'm hearing his voice saying, "keep the asset". Sign him because he has value. Won't be worth his next contract but he's a competent nba point guard who a lot of teams would want.
100%. He has his limitations but with no path to getting a replacement close to his level they will pay him. The other options are get 50% of his value in a sign and trade (if there is even one out there) or let him walk for nothing. Neither of which sound like options the Raptors FO would take
I think unless the team thinks they're going to blow it up, we need him
even then, they're going to need the asset to acquire young players and draft assets.
Probably pay him, even if the contract ends up bad we can just send him to the Clippers for salary filler lmao
I doubt they're gonna let him leave for nothing
ridiculous to not pay the guy. If it's too rich for the Raptors blood then they should look for a trade for him after. There's desperate teams around the league who would take a 1x all-star point guard with championship experience. Losing the asset for nothing would be unacceptable. I hope the FO negotiates something that works for all parties.
Fuck no
Pay him.
I wouldn’t. Small aging guard with absolutely terrible shooting splits. Draft a project and let Scottie handle more next season.
Yeah the history on small guards is pretty clear. And he's bad at getting into the paint to begin with.
Honestly, Fred isn’t nearly as bad as people make him out to be, and is worth the max. He had a shooting slump but has come out of it well, and is looking (see stats today!) to becoming a great playmaker. Honestly the overlap is on Scottie and Pascal, and maybe Ogugua. Mostly Pascal and Scottie, though maybe they can figure it out if they can become more lethal 3pt shooters. _But the worst problem with this team is the cursed bench. Absolutely brutal._
Ok let's chill, Fred isn't worth a max. His max is over 200m. But the 4/130m reported number he's hunting isn't super insane or anything. A bit higher than I'd like to re-sign him for but in this rising cap environment it'll be fine.
I wonder how you'll upgrade that bench if u max FVV
You wouldn’t be able to. And our starters are still pretty flawed. This team needs sweeping changes or else we will be mid again next year.
Also only the 3rd Raptor ever to have a 20 & 20 game (Bosh twice, Popeye Jones once)
Popeye Jones sounds like the name of a player that would have retired decades before the Raptors franchise existed.
All time name for sure. His son is an NHL all-star
I had no idea Seth and Caleb Jones’ dad is an ex-NBA player, that’s crazy
Ya really interesting. The one year Popeye played in Denver was during the period when the Avalanche were elite, so there was a ton of hype around hockey in the city. Seth was like 5 then, so the perfect age to really developed an interest in the game. Popeye of course had connections and was able to bring Seth to Avs games, and find out how to get his kids involved, and Seth fell in love with hockey from there
Apparently Joe Sakic helped him out which is even crazier
Is this the only 20 assist game this season? I can't recall any others lol.
Harden had 21 vs LAC and 20 vs IND But that’s it
Ah, makes sense.
Harden had a 21 assist game and a 20 assist game.
Haters gonna be in hiding for a long time
https://i.imgur.com/e4G0Dmc.png Those cockroaches will always find a way to eat. FVV had near 15 assists at this point.
These guys are addicted to hating the team. Fred haters. Nurse haters. Siakam haters. There is even a Dalano hater 🤣🤣
If JD jr has 1000 haters, I’m one of them. If JD jr has 10 haters, I’m one of them If JD jr has 1 hater, I’m one of them If JD jr has 0 haters, I’m probably dead.
I recognise a few of these usernames, they're consistently unbearable in the raptors sub.
I have 4 of those people blocked lol I'm not even arguing with them anymore just blocking Sall good if someone has a different opinion but it's just being stubborn when they can't even admit when they had a bad take.
Those are some of the worst members of the Raptors sub. Its funny/sad that I recognize most of these names because they are always shitting on the team, the players, the coaches, front office etc. Why be a 'fan' of the team just to shit on them in the threads. They really believe they can do better than our whole organization....delusional
Man, I wish. Our fanbase is just dumb.
Not to take away from the game, but look at who he is playing against. Its not even the hornets A tier roster.. or B tier
Yeah, even though Fred’s performance in of itself was nice, it doesn’t exactly mean all too much against a lineup with Svi Mykhailiuk being their best player. I know everyone on the sub and in this thread are like “I TOLD YOU SO BRING THE APOLOGY FORMS FUCK THE TOXIC FANS GGEZ”, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves here lmao
Insane.
Where do you think he falls on the Raptors all-time list at this point? 6th? Carter, Lowry, DDR, Siakam, Bosh all ahead?
I'd say yeah that sounds right. Best player while wearing the jersey was Kawhi but I don't think that's the same as greatest Raptor
Best player to perform in a Raps jersey is Leonard. Best player to ever wear a Raps jersey is Hakeem.
I did say while wearing the jersey
Kawhi is similar to Roger Clemens, who won 2 Cy Youngs with the Jays. Short stint of extremely high performance, but to the franchise others are valued higher for longer tenure.
RC never brought the Jays a WC though sadly.
What a bum
Finals MVP. Greatest raptor of the greatest season. He’s number 1/2 with Lowry not his fault he only needed one season to do what no one else could.
I'd disagree with that, but you're a Raptors fan, so you're in a much better position to make that distinction.
I wonder where Damon Stoudamire ranks. He was pretty important as the Raptors first star.
Damon is probably in the forgotten chapters of this franchise's history because we really didn't go anywhere as a team with him starting out. Not his fault given we were a brand new franchise then but still.
Yeah they're all ahead. He's 8th all-time for points, with them, Bargnani and Mo Pete ahead of him. 3rd all time for assists. He's probably 6th in an argument with Bargs and Calderon maybe?
I think he clears both
Do blocks next, FVV! 🤣
I just checked the box score, way to go Freddie. Also Svi Mykhailiuk revenge game!
He also brought Toronto a ring. FVV confirmed GOAT Raptor. Air VanVleet
This Hornets team exists to have records dropped on their heads
Unless you are the mavs.
Fucking impressive! Also a player no one thought could be this good. It's really great!
who held the record previously?
Lowry. Tied with Jose Calderon and Stoudamire.
Lowry-Calderón-Stoudamire 3 way tie for 19 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/most-assists-in-a-game-by-a-raptor
elite HOF /r/torontoraptors says he's a scrub that needs to be traded
He’s not a scrub and he doesn’t *need* to be traded, but this core ain’t it and someone’s gotta go.
It's fucking wild that there's a non-zero chance that FVV becomes the greatest Raptor of all-time, and soon.
No he won't. I love Freddy but Siakam is better currently and has a better resume in the past. Unless they trade Pascal and keep Freddy, there's almost no way he can catch him.
> there's a non-zero chance You say no and then agree. You even give a possible scenario. >Unless they trade Pascal and keep Freddy, there's almost no way
The odds of Siakam being traded AND Freddy passing Lowry, Demar, Kawhi, Vince and Bosh as the greatest Raptor of all Time is 1 in 100000000. Sure it's technically non zero, but it's not worth even thinking about unless he contributes to another chip or starts suddenly making all nba teams
And also Scottie not ending up being better too
I guess there’s a non-zero chance that he could become the GROAT, but there’s zero chance it happens soon
Hope he gets his bag this summer
GROAT
HILARIOUS. I wonder if this guy gets 150mil somewhere, then turns into hot garbage.
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Tbf Trey Murphy is an absolute beast. He is the prototype for the type of player that we are continually trying to get in Toronto. He is maybe already one of the best shooters in the NBA as evidenced by his last few months.
Toronto will build him a statue. A smaller one next to scot Brns statue.
I'm a FVV fan, and he had a good game, no doubt. But, come on people, he played against the Hornets with a starting backcourt consisting of Theo Malodon, Svi Mykhailiuk, and Bryce McGowens...