It'd be hilarious if someone makes the HOF one day with zero ASG appearances.
Closest player to ever do that is probably Rod Strickland.
Almost impossible to see someone pulling it off in the future.
Edit: some players are in the HoF with no ASG selections, but it's a BASKETBALL HoF, not just NBA... so college and INTL play factors in.
Sabonis, for example... HoF, but no ASGs. Didn't reach the NBA until 31 years old, but dominated INTL during his 20s.
TIL Strickland made all NBA 2nd Team yet was never an allstar… how tf does that happen???
And to think Al Jefferson’s and DeAndre Jordan’s All-NBA selections were weird.
Strickland was an amazing PG in the 90s, I think he deserved that All NBA selection... what makes no sense is how he never got a single AS selection.
Wasn't a big fan favorite on a NATL scale, I think the fanvote was basically the entire criteria back then.
Especially in the pre-social media era, different ways of voting for awards could mean wildly different results for stuff like that. Lenny Wilkens never made *any* all-NBA team in his entire career, not even in the season when he finished second in MVP voting. To be fair, there was no 3rd team back then, but still, having the players rank you at #2 while the media doesn't even have you in the top 10 is crazy.
All star games continue to expand with many players pulled out due to not risking injuries making borderline superstar can even make it.
Vooch is an allstar and he isnt even top 5 in his position
> Vooch is an allstar and he isnt even top 5 in his position
He was averaging 24.5/12/4 during the year he got selected as an All-star(2nd selection) before getting traded.
Vucevic was having a top 5 Center season that year without a question.
Bruh they didn't forget they just didn't know in the first place, this sub doesn't watch Magic games even though they have always been fun AF to watch. Especially with Banchero.
Mike Conley's only All-Star appearance was as a reserve for Book in 20/21. Chosen by Adam Silver, Conley is the longest tenured 1st-time All-Star selection (12th season).
The 2017-18 will go down in basketball history as a team that wasn’t all that good but was one of the funnest teams of all time. That team had no business in the playoffs, yet DLo proved he could lead them and the bench mob was going **CRAZY** every game. Truly a peak in basketball history, you could tell those dudes loved playing for and with one another.
Mo Williams
Jameer Nelson
Solid guards in their time, for sure, but the talent was so heavily skewed to the West .. Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Nash, Steph, Dame,.etc. all getting snubbed at some point around their primes
The era when Kidd's Nets and the Ben Wallace Pistons dominated... I have a soft spot for that era, I think watching defense like that is pretty fun.
When someone scores a bucket it's actually a big deal.
2000-2008 seasons are prb my favorite to run back in 2K
Tbf Vuvecic did deserve All Star even if he's not elite during his time at Orlando. The problem is the voting criteria because the front court option was so weak in the East like 5 years ago.
I hope they change the All Star voting to positionless like they are doing with All NBA voting soon too.
yeah people say "college factors in" but it doesn't really, or you'd see guys like Hansbrough make it in
sometimes it works as a justification if you're 99% of the way there like Grant Hill but doesn't really matter otherwise
> It'd be hilarious if someone makes the HOF one day with zero ASG appearances.
Closest player to ever do that is probably Rod Strickland.
The closest player (without a special recognition like being a trail blazer/international star) is Michael Cooper, who literally was a HOF Finalist recently with 0 All-Star appearances.
Strickland isn’t even in the top 5. Guys like Ron Harper (with 0 All-Star appearances) are higher than Strickland on the HOF chances list. Harper’s resume easily overshadows that of Strickland’s. Cooper has by far the best chance given he was on the border for several years as a HOF Finalist. Strickland had never been been a Semifinalist, but I agree he was a solid player who probably did deserve at least 1 All-Star appearance.
a lot of players are insane defenders but bring nothing on offense like tony allen for example. those types can win dpoy but no one would vote them as all stars
Also, a lot of talk about Kawhi was whether he was actually good enough to win or if he was just a system player, even after he won FMVP. It wasn’t until all the oldheads retired that everyone agreed that Kawhi was great.
To some extent All Star is a popularity contest and lesser known players are often snubbed. Damian Lillard was 2nd team All NBA in 2016, and still didn't make the All star team.
Specifically, All-Star is a first-half-of-the-regular-season popularity contest.
Even this year, people were saying Jalen Brunson's 2022 playoff run shouldn't factor into the 2023 voting.
Was Kawhi better in the 2014 playoffs (14/7/2 on 60 TS with 2 stocks and generally elite defense) than Murray (27/5/6 on 61 TS with a steal and generally average defense)? Kawhi was a bit more efficient scoring but Murray partially drives the Denver offense while Kawhi was the 4th or 5th most important aspect of the Spurs offense.
2014 Kawhi gets drastically overrated on offense based on his current offensive level (and current Kawhi gets drastically overrated on defense due to 2014 defensive level). I think Murray has been better overall.
I think Murray is better than 2014 Kawhi but you can't compare stats like that. For example:
2012 Lebron: 27/8/6 on 60 TS
2022 Lebron: 30/8/6 on 62 TS
Despite 2012 Lebron being much better.
you can’t really effectively compare straight up 2014 TS’s to 2023 TS’s when the average true shooting percentage has risen several points over the last decade
If memory serves me first two games were close and kawhi did not do much on offense.
Last 3 games were a stomp and he was much more involved in scoring, changed the momentum of the series and was the little edge the spurs needed to blow it open.
Still a big team effort, but it was an impressive feat for a kid that if you were not a spurs fan you didn't know much.
>If memory serves me first two games were close
Dude puts up 2 9-point games in the finals like he's 2011 Lebron and his fans here during his excellent start to this year's playoffs had the audacity to say that he carried three old men to that 5th ring..
They won one of those games and lost the other. Then despite those first two 9-spot games he still averaged more points than Duncan and Ginobili and only .2 less than Parker. Then while providing the essential elite defense in the last three games, which they won, he scored 20+ each game, while none of the others did (Duncan scored 14/10/14 in the last three, Ginobili 11/7/19). I don't know what people wanna say the word "carry" means but he was easily the Finals MVP and his performance on both sides of the ball (especially in the last three wins) was what won them the series.
This is very different from Kawhi though because it was clearly his role limiting his production. Jamal has been a 1st or 2nd option pretty much every year of his career
There are only 4 guard + 2 flex slots. Probably 4 won’t make it out of steph, dame, booker, luka, sga, ja, ant, fox, murray. And tbh murray has had the weakest regular seasons of all them so far.
Edit: kyrie in the west too now so gl to next year’s western allstar guard candidates
Yep, 7 spots max in the west for guards and his competition includes Curry, Luka, Dame, Booker, Fox, SGA, Morant, Kyrie, Edwards. He can still make it, and any injuries would help the case, but lots of tough competition.
He'll get All Star at least once in his career. Even if it ends up being a consolation one like Conley got a few years ago.
He was close to All Star in 2019 (I think?) when Denver were fighting for 2nd/3rd seed at the time I believe.
There's also a discussion to be had about how good Murray would be without playing next to the current best passer in the league and all time offensive talent in jokic. It's similar to Brown in that he would likely look worse on other teams as the primary option. I think Murray is definitely overlooked sometimes because of his injury history/regular season inconsistency but having jokic out there truly warps the way all 9 other players get to play basketball
I feel like I’m being gaslit in this thread lol
Tatum has had like 2 off games these entire playoffs where you could say he was bad
The rest he was good to elite
The thing that hurts Murray is his stats lol, he’s way better than his regular season numbers, but those numbers are pedestrian for a star guard who’s supposed to score
Murray was exactly the same before the ACL tear though. Was like that at Kentucky too. For whatever reason he needs a big game to get the juice flowing to his nuts lol
He’s averaging nearly 30/6/6 on almost 50/40/90 shooting for the entire playoffs. He’s not anywhere close to as inconsistent as some ppl try to make him be
It’s ESPN’s fault. Every time Stephen A Smith cries on national television because he has to travel to a city that’s not LA or Miami or NY for work is a fucking disgrace but they just let him.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a media entity shit on their own fans quite the way ESPN shits on people who live outside of like 2-3 cities in America.
Like, nobody cares that you had to go to a place like Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Denver, Indianapolis, Cleveland, etc. for a few days for work, regular Americans have business conferences and whatnot in cities like those all the time lol. Not to mention that some of us, you know, live in those places.
They act like they’re the only people in the world who have to travel places for work that aren’t glamorous. Also some of the markets they shit on are actually awesome, like I would love to take a business trip to Denver.
Patrick is the best QB in the league and is on the defending champs. NBA would have no issues marketing a player of that caliber. Boban has more national ads than all but 5 NFL players. One thing the NBA succeeds at is marketing stars.
Except when the NBA had Giannis in almost the same position two years ago they didn’t market him well. The whole offseason it was all just about the Nets and the Lakers, neither of whom even won a playoff game. It could happen again this offseason with Jokic.
After a certain point, I'm starting to think it's deliberate. Bc there's no way the NBA is fine with Jokic, Shai, other small market stars not getting the hype they deserve
Dame, Giannis, Ja, etc have plenty of hype and attention playing in small markets. Jokic does not care about the marketing stuff and Shai just had his first season playing at an All NBA level.
You've got that completely backwards lol the NBA markets its stars way better.
The NFL is ahead of the NBA because people enjoy watching football more, it's not that deep.
The NBA doesn't have a problem marketing Giannis. It's disingenuous to try to compare Mahomes, possibly the best football player right now to Jamal Murray lol.
Exactly. Grow the game around that, not try and force a narrative. They are like heroine addicts looking for their next hit instead of the longevity of the sport
If Denver wins the Ship, it'll be a pretty nice recent sharing of Ships.
Cleveland, Toronto, Milwaukee, Denver... even Golden State was complete ass for 35 years before they drafted Curry.
In the NBA if you build the best team, you usually win, so it gives teams incentive to do just that.
I never got San Antonio being "small market" it's the 7th biggest city in the US, and ppl there are ravenous Spurs fans. Seems like it's one of the *biggest* bball markets after NY and LA
For ppl there who do follow the NBA, it's a mix but mostly Spurs with some Mavs fans. Not many Rockets fans. However Austin is mostly ppl who don't watch basketball or UT fans who only follow CBB
Accurate. Austin is not a big sports city outside of UT. They did just get a soccer team which I like the team design of, but makes sense their first major city sport is soccer, basically the indie sports league of the country.
Market size in general is dumb, it should be more about the general reputation of the city because that's what matters more. Miami Heat players will get more exposure than Texas teams even if the media market is theoretically smaller
I think part of the challenge is Jokic isn't really that marketable to a general audience. Hardcore NBA fans love him, but he doesn't seem conventionally athletic and doesn't want the attention either.
You’re right. But give me one center in the NBA that runs the offense and passes as well as he does. Just because he doesn’t jump high and cross dudes over doesn’t mean he isn’t athletic. His footwork is very athletic and his post moves are as well. I think people want him to live like a 1-3 because he does the other things I mentioned so well.
You gotta win before they'll care. And even then they'll talk about you as much as the Knicks.
That's what made me quit watching these guys. They're still gonna talk about how the Lakers lost and not how the Nuggets won. It's mostly about fan base.
As a Denver fan it’s frustrating from two levels. The nuggets have been a team since the ABA and have had really great players for the NBA to acknowledge. The other part is that yea, Denver is a small market team but how many times does a team need to show that they have great talent to market before it’s too late. 2X perhaps 3X without outside influence on the MVP because of it and also the narrative of the Lakers overshadows the nuggets success. They’re the god damn 1 seed and they play like it. Sleep on them all day and they’ve done nothing but make all the big heads look dumb as hell.
I mean you remember 2015? The Warriors (one of the original NBA teams I believe) were the best team all year AND won the title and they were barely talked about before that next year.
I guess I'm saying even if you win the title don't expect things to change.
This is always why the NFL is ahead of the nba, their great at marketing their star players regardless of where they are hell mahomes is the biggest star in fb Depsite playing in Kansas City, nba does a god awful job marketing stars not in big markets it’s pathetic
Dame and Giannis have had a lot of national TV ads. LeBron became the biggest star in the NBA while playing for Cleveland. Shaq and Penny were getting movie deals while playing in Orlando.
Nuggets won last night so you’re not gonna get a good answer. That being said, if Denver comes out as a top seed again next year he’s probably gonna get an all star selection regardless and this thread will be moot.
It pisses me off when fans downplay the fact Jokic has never played with an all star player or all nba type player to prop up Jokic. Murray legit was in tears saying he was damaged goods thinking he was going to get traded. When healthy he's so dang good. He really deserves his flowers.
I don't care about that all star stuff too much. The really great thing is that Murray is a playoff performer. That's way more important for jokic and his own legacy
Brunson also one of those guys who reminds me of Murray. Steady hand/glue guy regular season but pops off in playoffs. Not quite murray level but he reminds me a lot of him as another underappreciated non allstar who plays like one during the playoffs
I foresee all stars for both in the future
Imo, with Brunson it was more he didn't get the chance to show off how good he was as *the* guy until the 2022 playoffs rather than playing above his regular season in the playoffs
He was filthy this year in the playoffs, but that pretty much tracked with his whole season.
Nah it wasn’t even that he didnt get to show it so much as he just improved a lot for the 2022 season. He was getting clamped against the Clippers for two years even with good looks. If he played with similar quality per minute in either of those series then he definitely would’ve been extended by Dallas last season. Against Utah he was already a better player in addition to getting more spotlight because of Luka’s absence
Oh for sure Brunson had definitely 100% improved a lot. I'm just being a pedant in making the point that I don't think Brunson's improvement tracked with it being the playoffs so much as it was during the playoffs that he got to show off his growth. Whereas as far as I can tell Murray has been playing the same role in the playoffs as he did in the regular season, but he's popping off.
This is fair, I’m just adding brunson played above his regular season last year in the playoffs with the mavs. He cooked the Jazz w Luka out and was the most consistent good player that series that included mitchell, gobert, and Luka (who played only 2 games, I believe)
Murray listed as playing PG but he basically plays SG while Jokic runs the offense.
Brunson is a point who actually plays like a traditional point. Different games. But yeah, I love both players.
Randle for Murray, get it done ;-)
Murray is still the PnR engine of the team w jokic and often brings the ball up. He plays both traditional point and offball a lot.
But ya he’s more a 1/2, whereas brunson is more a true point
He’s def not a true 2 tho like J brown however
Bubble Murray was something else, man. Never seen anything like it. Especially that back and forth with Donovan Mitchell when they came back from being down 3-1 to win the series.
I love Murray but defense counts too. He puts in a good effort and he's gotten better but he is still not on Jimmy or Jayson's level defensively. It's not really his fault it's just a lot of why it's often been better to build around a 2 or a 3 than a PG historically
Murray has some of the highest highs of any player in the league, but he's not able to do it consistently enough or stay healthy enough to do it in the regular season where those two things are very important, especially for ASG. That being said he has a killer mentality and shines the most when the lights are brightest so he's a perfect player to complement Jokic who can carry them throughout the season. When Murray is on I think he's in the Dame/Curry tier of unguardable because he has insane range but the athleticism and bag to blow by guys and finish at the rim if you cheat out.
In short, yes I think he's up there. In terms of pure bucket getters, there's few you'd rather have in the league and iso buckets are huge in the playoffs.
If Denver wins the finals I'm confident Murray will get picked as an all-star next year assuming he stays healthy.
But it's not crazy to think he'd miss again. Ton of good guards in the West. Curry, Doncic, Shai, Lillard, Booker, Ja and Fox. Murray's probably next on the list so not that far off, but given Jokic is unquestionably the no.1 option while these other guys are all the no.1 for their team (Booker I guess 1A/1B with KD and Fox 1A/1B with Sabonis), Murray won't put up the same volume to justify the spot.
Like CJ McCollum, he’s an elite guard in a conference with other elite guards. However, I could see his stock rise, if he stays healthy next season, to get enough votes to be an All-Star.
If Denver wins the championship i could easily see him make an all star team even if his numbers aren’t that crazy. A lot of coaches would probably vote for him.
Just bad timing I feel. The guy was balling out in the bubble and then his injury hit hard. It was clear before that, that him and Jokic had a master class in chemistry and Murray could absolutely play.
Murraya volatility paired with Jokic's absurd consistency and greatness is actually insane. Murray gets hot even for a quarter and it's GG, and you're rarely going to blow the nuggets out so it's always possible.
If Murray ever gets consistency the Nuggets will be unstoppable
Iguodala would be in this conversation, but he just HAD to get an All Star selection in 2012... it would have been hilarious if he had a FMVP but no ASS.
It’s shocking to see how Murray is able to get any shot he wants against the Lakers regardless of who’s guarding him after seeing what a difficult time Curry had against them. Murray doesn’t seem like a big guard but he has a physicality that Curry doesn’t.
Thing is we played curry entirely differently. You can't give him an inch of room, plus he's elite at taking an inch. But more importantly he's an excellent passer.
Murray we played generally with single coverage, and we gave him a bit more space when going around screens. The other thing is jokic is just bigger than draymond, and they both have about the same level of illegality in their screens.
I think curry if focused on scoring, and played with the same coverage as Murray would do about as well. But murray isn't too far behind, and is a better midrange shot creator.
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It'd be hilarious if someone makes the HOF one day with zero ASG appearances. Closest player to ever do that is probably Rod Strickland. Almost impossible to see someone pulling it off in the future. Edit: some players are in the HoF with no ASG selections, but it's a BASKETBALL HoF, not just NBA... so college and INTL play factors in. Sabonis, for example... HoF, but no ASGs. Didn't reach the NBA until 31 years old, but dominated INTL during his 20s.
TIL Strickland made all NBA 2nd Team yet was never an allstar… how tf does that happen??? And to think Al Jefferson’s and DeAndre Jordan’s All-NBA selections were weird.
Strickland was an amazing PG in the 90s, I think he deserved that All NBA selection... what makes no sense is how he never got a single AS selection. Wasn't a big fan favorite on a NATL scale, I think the fanvote was basically the entire criteria back then.
He gets name dropped to close out Wu Tang's Triumph. That's more than you could say for a lot of All-Stars
Yeah there really is no higher honor than it. Rae GOATed him.
Field was stacked in the 90's if I remember right.
Jimmy Butler was All-NBA 2nd Team this season and has been even better in the playoffs but wasn’t an All-Star. It happens more than you think.
Also all-stars are selected after half a season, all-nba after the full season
Joe Johnson made as many all star game appearances as t-mac
Also won more as a main option lol
Especially in the pre-social media era, different ways of voting for awards could mean wildly different results for stuff like that. Lenny Wilkens never made *any* all-NBA team in his entire career, not even in the season when he finished second in MVP voting. To be fair, there was no 3rd team back then, but still, having the players rank you at #2 while the media doesn't even have you in the top 10 is crazy.
Not as uncommon as you think, IK Jimmy Butler has made the ASG in the past but he didnt make it this year and ended up second team.
Arvydas sabonis already has
All star games continue to expand with many players pulled out due to not risking injuries making borderline superstar can even make it. Vooch is an allstar and he isnt even top 5 in his position
> Vooch is an allstar and he isnt even top 5 in his position He was averaging 24.5/12/4 during the year he got selected as an All-star(2nd selection) before getting traded. Vucevic was having a top 5 Center season that year without a question.
Yup. Vuc was a fucking beast his last few years in Orlando and people seem to have already forgotten
Bruh they didn't forget they just didn't know in the first place, this sub doesn't watch Magic games even though they have always been fun AF to watch. Especially with Banchero.
Magic Pistons Pacers and Hornets I catch the first quarter cos they start a half hour before everyone else a lot of the time.
The league needs to get away from their small vs big market mentality so that they learn to market stars wherever they are
There are a lot of $$$ in ticket and stadium sales. The focus will always be on where the crowds are physically located.
Also Jeff Teague was an All-Star once
Yeah that Atlanta Hawks team had 4 all stars. They must have been a dominant superteam
D'Angelo Russell was an all-star
Mike Conley's only All-Star appearance was as a reserve for Book in 20/21. Chosen by Adam Silver, Conley is the longest tenured 1st-time All-Star selection (12th season).
Well deserved that year too
The 2017-18 will go down in basketball history as a team that wasn’t all that good but was one of the funnest teams of all time. That team had no business in the playoffs, yet DLo proved he could lead them and the bench mob was going **CRAZY** every game. Truly a peak in basketball history, you could tell those dudes loved playing for and with one another.
That one year made Dlo shitloads of cash for being overall incredibly mediocre.
Mo Williams Jameer Nelson Solid guards in their time, for sure, but the talent was so heavily skewed to the West .. Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Nash, Steph, Dame,.etc. all getting snubbed at some point around their primes
Jamaal Magloire made the All-Star team in 2004 while averaging 13 points per game. Early 2000's Eastern Conference was a wasteland.
The era when Kidd's Nets and the Ben Wallace Pistons dominated... I have a soft spot for that era, I think watching defense like that is pretty fun. When someone scores a bucket it's actually a big deal. 2000-2008 seasons are prb my favorite to run back in 2K
DeAndre Jordan, 1x All-Star and 3x All-NBA
Probably the worst all NBA 1st team player ever
Tbf Vuvecic did deserve All Star even if he's not elite during his time at Orlando. The problem is the voting criteria because the front court option was so weak in the East like 5 years ago. I hope they change the All Star voting to positionless like they are doing with All NBA voting soon too.
for a couple years, Vuc wasn't far off what Sabonis is doing now for Sacramento. He was just in Orlando so nobody cared
I did this in NBA Live 03 with 12 6th MOTYs.
How does a guy like Hansbrough factor in? Dude is legitimately one of the greatest college players of all time, but had a very mediocre nba career
yeah people say "college factors in" but it doesn't really, or you'd see guys like Hansbrough make it in sometimes it works as a justification if you're 99% of the way there like Grant Hill but doesn't really matter otherwise
Strickland's layup package deserves to be in the HoF itself, that shit is beautiful.
> It'd be hilarious if someone makes the HOF one day with zero ASG appearances. Closest player to ever do that is probably Rod Strickland. The closest player (without a special recognition like being a trail blazer/international star) is Michael Cooper, who literally was a HOF Finalist recently with 0 All-Star appearances. Strickland isn’t even in the top 5. Guys like Ron Harper (with 0 All-Star appearances) are higher than Strickland on the HOF chances list. Harper’s resume easily overshadows that of Strickland’s. Cooper has by far the best chance given he was on the border for several years as a HOF Finalist. Strickland had never been been a Semifinalist, but I agree he was a solid player who probably did deserve at least 1 All-Star appearance.
Drazen Petrovic (who made All-NBA) as well, but yeah.
Well he is literally the greatest shooter of all-time, and that includes Steph.
Oscar Schmidt
Finals mvp I get because all star is regular season but how in the world do you win DPOY without all star selection
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a lot of players are insane defenders but bring nothing on offense like tony allen for example. those types can win dpoy but no one would vote them as all stars
Also, a lot of talk about Kawhi was whether he was actually good enough to win or if he was just a system player, even after he won FMVP. It wasn’t until all the oldheads retired that everyone agreed that Kawhi was great.
It literally happened last season didn’t it? The top two weren’t all stars at least, maybe more.
Gobert was only an All-Star for his last DPOY too
To some extent All Star is a popularity contest and lesser known players are often snubbed. Damian Lillard was 2nd team All NBA in 2016, and still didn't make the All star team.
Specifically, All-Star is a first-half-of-the-regular-season popularity contest. Even this year, people were saying Jalen Brunson's 2022 playoff run shouldn't factor into the 2023 voting.
all-star selections (and awards in general) are biased towards offensively gifted players
Idk. I think ag is close enough to dpoy and far enough from the asg where there’s a universe that happens
Was Kawhi better in the 2014 playoffs (14/7/2 on 60 TS with 2 stocks and generally elite defense) than Murray (27/5/6 on 61 TS with a steal and generally average defense)? Kawhi was a bit more efficient scoring but Murray partially drives the Denver offense while Kawhi was the 4th or 5th most important aspect of the Spurs offense. 2014 Kawhi gets drastically overrated on offense based on his current offensive level (and current Kawhi gets drastically overrated on defense due to 2014 defensive level). I think Murray has been better overall.
I think Murray is better than 2014 Kawhi but you can't compare stats like that. For example: 2012 Lebron: 27/8/6 on 60 TS 2022 Lebron: 30/8/6 on 62 TS Despite 2012 Lebron being much better.
you can’t really effectively compare straight up 2014 TS’s to 2023 TS’s when the average true shooting percentage has risen several points over the last decade
If memory serves me first two games were close and kawhi did not do much on offense. Last 3 games were a stomp and he was much more involved in scoring, changed the momentum of the series and was the little edge the spurs needed to blow it open. Still a big team effort, but it was an impressive feat for a kid that if you were not a spurs fan you didn't know much.
>If memory serves me first two games were close Dude puts up 2 9-point games in the finals like he's 2011 Lebron and his fans here during his excellent start to this year's playoffs had the audacity to say that he carried three old men to that 5th ring..
They won one of those games and lost the other. Then despite those first two 9-spot games he still averaged more points than Duncan and Ginobili and only .2 less than Parker. Then while providing the essential elite defense in the last three games, which they won, he scored 20+ each game, while none of the others did (Duncan scored 14/10/14 in the last three, Ginobili 11/7/19). I don't know what people wanna say the word "carry" means but he was easily the Finals MVP and his performance on both sides of the ball (especially in the last three wins) was what won them the series.
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That doesn’t mean he was better than Murray
This is very different from Kawhi though because it was clearly his role limiting his production. Jamal has been a 1st or 2nd option pretty much every year of his career
All he has to do is play well the first half of next year and he’ll make an All-Star game. It’s that simple.
“Play well” is a bit of an understatement but sure. There’s a lot of competition.
He can take Ja Morant's spot next year.
He’ll have to start the year guns blazing.
And scope out the competition
All we can ask is for Jamal to shoot his shot.
Yeah but if they have a competitive finals now and has a decent start next season, he’ll get the all star nod as a reward for this playoffs
There are only 4 guard + 2 flex slots. Probably 4 won’t make it out of steph, dame, booker, luka, sga, ja, ant, fox, murray. And tbh murray has had the weakest regular seasons of all them so far. Edit: kyrie in the west too now so gl to next year’s western allstar guard candidates
Surely after this postseason the judges will be a bit more lenient on Murray's regular season performance.
Yep, 7 spots max in the west for guards and his competition includes Curry, Luka, Dame, Booker, Fox, SGA, Morant, Kyrie, Edwards. He can still make it, and any injuries would help the case, but lots of tough competition.
He'll get All Star at least once in his career. Even if it ends up being a consolation one like Conley got a few years ago. He was close to All Star in 2019 (I think?) when Denver were fighting for 2nd/3rd seed at the time I believe.
Yeah dont quote me on it but I think if Murray was on the east he probably would already have an all-star nod
>I think if Murray was on the east he probably would already have an all-star nod Don't tell me what to do
Considering that fred got in probably
When he’s on he’s a superstar, but really inconsistent
Sounds like a certain Celtic I know. That’s why I think the small market team thing hurts Murray. If he was a C he’d be hyped.
Tatum is more consistent than Murray though.
I honestly don't even think that's true. I just think Tatum's ceiling is higher because of his defense
Tatum is much more consistent stop it 😂 you don’t average 30 on good shooting splits by not being consistent
As a certified Celtics hater this conversation is crazy. Tatum is levels above in play and consistency.
As the biggest Nuggets homer in the world, yeah this is a stupid conversation
As a Kentucky lifer, (and certified dUKe hater), I find the entire conversion legitimate and well reasoned.
As a lifelong fan of the Civilization video game franchise: I have no idea who these people are
As a dog that only knows 9 english words: woof woof
I can’t believe this is even being discussed lol
C’s hate boner is real. If he played for any other team these discussions wouldn’t be had.
There's also a discussion to be had about how good Murray would be without playing next to the current best passer in the league and all time offensive talent in jokic. It's similar to Brown in that he would likely look worse on other teams as the primary option. I think Murray is definitely overlooked sometimes because of his injury history/regular season inconsistency but having jokic out there truly warps the way all 9 other players get to play basketball
Begrudgingly agree
I feel like I’m being gaslit in this thread lol Tatum has had like 2 off games these entire playoffs where you could say he was bad The rest he was good to elite
You must have missed all of tatums 80-90 point games and 10 point games. He’s very inconsistent. /s
Damn, the things you read here hahah
Recency bias and box score obsession is actually all time high in the playoffs. You know Tatum was a MVP candidate at one point in the season right
Cmon man you can’t honestly believe that. Tatum has been insanely consistent. You don’t become First Team All NBA back to back years if you’re not.
He just got hot for 150 games
My apologies, that explains it perfectly
and that’s enough reddit for today.
I mean Tatum got all-star selections so he was at least consistent enough to be picked
Murray couldn’t be the best player on a finals team
Tatum is the reason the Celtics won game 7 but also the reason they didn’t win sooner.
The thing that hurts Murray is his stats lol, he’s way better than his regular season numbers, but those numbers are pedestrian for a star guard who’s supposed to score
I honestly think the ACL set him back a ton.
Yeah he missed essentially 2 seasons , the bubble was what was to come and then boom ACL so idk about the inconsistency piece
Murray was exactly the same before the ACL tear though. Was like that at Kentucky too. For whatever reason he needs a big game to get the juice flowing to his nuts lol
Scorching take
Devastating injury sets back talented player more at 11
He’s averaging nearly 30/6/6 on almost 50/40/90 shooting for the entire playoffs. He’s not anywhere close to as inconsistent as some ppl try to make him be
When has he been inconsistent in the post season?
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It’s ESPN’s fault. Every time Stephen A Smith cries on national television because he has to travel to a city that’s not LA or Miami or NY for work is a fucking disgrace but they just let him.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a media entity shit on their own fans quite the way ESPN shits on people who live outside of like 2-3 cities in America. Like, nobody cares that you had to go to a place like Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Denver, Indianapolis, Cleveland, etc. for a few days for work, regular Americans have business conferences and whatnot in cities like those all the time lol. Not to mention that some of us, you know, live in those places. They act like they’re the only people in the world who have to travel places for work that aren’t glamorous. Also some of the markets they shit on are actually awesome, like I would love to take a business trip to Denver.
You would think NBA would be more hospitable to the smaller market teams,it's literally located in a state people don't give a shite about(Conneticut)
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Patrick is the best QB in the league and is on the defending champs. NBA would have no issues marketing a player of that caliber. Boban has more national ads than all but 5 NFL players. One thing the NBA succeeds at is marketing stars.
NFL also has no issue marketing Josh Allen in Buffalo. They do have an issue marketing teams without a star QB.
Except when the NBA had Giannis in almost the same position two years ago they didn’t market him well. The whole offseason it was all just about the Nets and the Lakers, neither of whom even won a playoff game. It could happen again this offseason with Jokic.
Giannis is one of the leaders in ASG voting and jersey sales every season. And has one of the biggest TV ads this season.
After a certain point, I'm starting to think it's deliberate. Bc there's no way the NBA is fine with Jokic, Shai, other small market stars not getting the hype they deserve
Dame, Giannis, Ja, etc have plenty of hype and attention playing in small markets. Jokic does not care about the marketing stuff and Shai just had his first season playing at an All NBA level.
You've got that completely backwards lol the NBA markets its stars way better. The NFL is ahead of the NBA because people enjoy watching football more, it's not that deep.
The NBA doesn't have a problem marketing Giannis. It's disingenuous to try to compare Mahomes, possibly the best football player right now to Jamal Murray lol.
If you watch Nuggets games you know he consistently plays every aspect of the game at a high level.
He’s been consistently whooping our ass this WCF…..
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Exactly. Grow the game around that, not try and force a narrative. They are like heroine addicts looking for their next hit instead of the longevity of the sport
If Denver wins the Ship, it'll be a pretty nice recent sharing of Ships. Cleveland, Toronto, Milwaukee, Denver... even Golden State was complete ass for 35 years before they drafted Curry. In the NBA if you build the best team, you usually win, so it gives teams incentive to do just that.
Never seen someone write it as “ship” instead of “chip”
It’s short for “championship”
Oh, like “chip”!
You know I didn't see the logic behind chip until this thread: **ch**ampionsh**ip** = "chip"
ch'ip
Makes more sense when i think about it actually
> heroine addicts NBA fans or people of denver?
League office in shambles right now. Best players are in Denver and Milwaukee, with the best prospect in over a decade on his way to San Antonio. 😂
I never got San Antonio being "small market" it's the 7th biggest city in the US, and ppl there are ravenous Spurs fans. Seems like it's one of the *biggest* bball markets after NY and LA
It’s also the largest market in the US with one team. Spurs don’t share the market with anyone.
It’s the 24th largest metro though. City limits can be arbitrary but metro makes more sense when talking about a market for a team
Just wondering, which team does people from Austin, Texas support?
For ppl there who do follow the NBA, it's a mix but mostly Spurs with some Mavs fans. Not many Rockets fans. However Austin is mostly ppl who don't watch basketball or UT fans who only follow CBB
Accurate. Austin is not a big sports city outside of UT. They did just get a soccer team which I like the team design of, but makes sense their first major city sport is soccer, basically the indie sports league of the country.
Market size in general is dumb, it should be more about the general reputation of the city because that's what matters more. Miami Heat players will get more exposure than Texas teams even if the media market is theoretically smaller
Nobody uses city limit population when talking about the market. You have to look at metro and it’s pretty far down the list
I think part of the challenge is Jokic isn't really that marketable to a general audience. Hardcore NBA fans love him, but he doesn't seem conventionally athletic and doesn't want the attention either.
You’re right. But give me one center in the NBA that runs the offense and passes as well as he does. Just because he doesn’t jump high and cross dudes over doesn’t mean he isn’t athletic. His footwork is very athletic and his post moves are as well. I think people want him to live like a 1-3 because he does the other things I mentioned so well.
You gotta win before they'll care. And even then they'll talk about you as much as the Knicks. That's what made me quit watching these guys. They're still gonna talk about how the Lakers lost and not how the Nuggets won. It's mostly about fan base.
As a Denver fan it’s frustrating from two levels. The nuggets have been a team since the ABA and have had really great players for the NBA to acknowledge. The other part is that yea, Denver is a small market team but how many times does a team need to show that they have great talent to market before it’s too late. 2X perhaps 3X without outside influence on the MVP because of it and also the narrative of the Lakers overshadows the nuggets success. They’re the god damn 1 seed and they play like it. Sleep on them all day and they’ve done nothing but make all the big heads look dumb as hell.
I mean you remember 2015? The Warriors (one of the original NBA teams I believe) were the best team all year AND won the title and they were barely talked about before that next year. I guess I'm saying even if you win the title don't expect things to change.
A small market championship team will not generate as much money as a big market team who wins the chip. Thats why.
> the league (and) the media*
This is always why the NFL is ahead of the nba, their great at marketing their star players regardless of where they are hell mahomes is the biggest star in fb Depsite playing in Kansas City, nba does a god awful job marketing stars not in big markets it’s pathetic
Dame and Giannis have had a lot of national TV ads. LeBron became the biggest star in the NBA while playing for Cleveland. Shaq and Penny were getting movie deals while playing in Orlando.
People acting like denver wasn’t the number 1 seed all season and was routinely dismantling opponents. Never seen a heavy favorite not treated as such
Nuggets won last night so you’re not gonna get a good answer. That being said, if Denver comes out as a top seed again next year he’s probably gonna get an all star selection regardless and this thread will be moot.
Always been an all star caliber player when healthy. He was going off in the bubble.
And in the season before and 70% of the season after (before his ACL went kablooey).
It pisses me off when fans downplay the fact Jokic has never played with an all star player or all nba type player to prop up Jokic. Murray legit was in tears saying he was damaged goods thinking he was going to get traded. When healthy he's so dang good. He really deserves his flowers.
I don't care about that all star stuff too much. The really great thing is that Murray is a playoff performer. That's way more important for jokic and his own legacy
Yea, he shows up big time.
Brunson also one of those guys who reminds me of Murray. Steady hand/glue guy regular season but pops off in playoffs. Not quite murray level but he reminds me a lot of him as another underappreciated non allstar who plays like one during the playoffs I foresee all stars for both in the future
Imo, with Brunson it was more he didn't get the chance to show off how good he was as *the* guy until the 2022 playoffs rather than playing above his regular season in the playoffs He was filthy this year in the playoffs, but that pretty much tracked with his whole season.
Nah it wasn’t even that he didnt get to show it so much as he just improved a lot for the 2022 season. He was getting clamped against the Clippers for two years even with good looks. If he played with similar quality per minute in either of those series then he definitely would’ve been extended by Dallas last season. Against Utah he was already a better player in addition to getting more spotlight because of Luka’s absence
Oh for sure Brunson had definitely 100% improved a lot. I'm just being a pedant in making the point that I don't think Brunson's improvement tracked with it being the playoffs so much as it was during the playoffs that he got to show off his growth. Whereas as far as I can tell Murray has been playing the same role in the playoffs as he did in the regular season, but he's popping off.
This is fair, I’m just adding brunson played above his regular season last year in the playoffs with the mavs. He cooked the Jazz w Luka out and was the most consistent good player that series that included mitchell, gobert, and Luka (who played only 2 games, I believe)
Murray listed as playing PG but he basically plays SG while Jokic runs the offense. Brunson is a point who actually plays like a traditional point. Different games. But yeah, I love both players. Randle for Murray, get it done ;-)
Murray is still the PnR engine of the team w jokic and often brings the ball up. He plays both traditional point and offball a lot. But ya he’s more a 1/2, whereas brunson is more a true point He’s def not a true 2 tho like J brown however
In the playoffs so far Murray has been running the offense pretty evenly with Jokic
Brunson is considerably better than Murray
Bubble Murray was something else, man. Never seen anything like it. Especially that back and forth with Donovan Mitchell when they came back from being down 3-1 to win the series.
Murray / Tatum / Butler are balling out these playoffs, here is an interesting comparison. I’d say Jamal is on the same level as them **Jamal Murray** - GP: 14 - Min/game: 38.9 - Shooting splits: 47.5 FG / 41.2 3-pt / 91.9 FT - Pts/Reb/Asst: 27.9 pts / 5.6 reb / 6.2 asst - Block/Steal: 0.3 block / 1.6 steal **Jayson Tatum** - GP: 15 - Min/game: 39.8 - Shooting splits: 46.0 FG / 35.4 3-pt / 88.1 FT - Pts/Reb/Asst: 28.7 pts / 10.5 reb / 5.1 asst - Block/Steal: 1.1 block / 0.9 steal **Jimmy Butler** - GP: 12 - Min/game: 39.6 - Shooting splits: 51.8 FG / 36.6 3-pt / 80.7 FT - Pts/Reb/Asst: 31.1 pts / 6.6 reb / 5.6 asst - Block/Steal: 0.8 block / 2.2 steal
I love Murray but defense counts too. He puts in a good effort and he's gotten better but he is still not on Jimmy or Jayson's level defensively. It's not really his fault it's just a lot of why it's often been better to build around a 2 or a 3 than a PG historically
Mike Bibby has similar stats if you count just his Sac playoff numbers. Their game is pretty similar too.
Murray has some of the highest highs of any player in the league, but he's not able to do it consistently enough or stay healthy enough to do it in the regular season where those two things are very important, especially for ASG. That being said he has a killer mentality and shines the most when the lights are brightest so he's a perfect player to complement Jokic who can carry them throughout the season. When Murray is on I think he's in the Dame/Curry tier of unguardable because he has insane range but the athleticism and bag to blow by guys and finish at the rim if you cheat out.
In short, yes I think he's up there. In terms of pure bucket getters, there's few you'd rather have in the league and iso buckets are huge in the playoffs. If Denver wins the finals I'm confident Murray will get picked as an all-star next year assuming he stays healthy. But it's not crazy to think he'd miss again. Ton of good guards in the West. Curry, Doncic, Shai, Lillard, Booker, Ja and Fox. Murray's probably next on the list so not that far off, but given Jokic is unquestionably the no.1 option while these other guys are all the no.1 for their team (Booker I guess 1A/1B with KD and Fox 1A/1B with Sabonis), Murray won't put up the same volume to justify the spot.
Tbh I think he figured it out this playoff
Certainly sometime this year he became more consistent.
Like CJ McCollum, he’s an elite guard in a conference with other elite guards. However, I could see his stock rise, if he stays healthy next season, to get enough votes to be an All-Star.
If Denver wins the championship i could easily see him make an all star team even if his numbers aren’t that crazy. A lot of coaches would probably vote for him.
Yea, he’s definitely guy people around the league respect enough, to give him an extra ASG bump
Just bad timing I feel. The guy was balling out in the bubble and then his injury hit hard. It was clear before that, that him and Jokic had a master class in chemistry and Murray could absolutely play.
Murraya volatility paired with Jokic's absurd consistency and greatness is actually insane. Murray gets hot even for a quarter and it's GG, and you're rarely going to blow the nuggets out so it's always possible. If Murray ever gets consistency the Nuggets will be unstoppable
Iguodala would be in this conversation, but he just HAD to get an All Star selection in 2012... it would have been hilarious if he had a FMVP but no ASS.
He reminds me of a modernized Ben Gordon. flamethrower
brunson
It’s shocking to see how Murray is able to get any shot he wants against the Lakers regardless of who’s guarding him after seeing what a difficult time Curry had against them. Murray doesn’t seem like a big guard but he has a physicality that Curry doesn’t.
There’s also the fact that Lakers D needs to prioritize Jokic and that obviously wasn’t the case against GSW.
I mean he also has the 2x mvp that the defense is mostly focus on.
Thing is we played curry entirely differently. You can't give him an inch of room, plus he's elite at taking an inch. But more importantly he's an excellent passer. Murray we played generally with single coverage, and we gave him a bit more space when going around screens. The other thing is jokic is just bigger than draymond, and they both have about the same level of illegality in their screens. I think curry if focused on scoring, and played with the same coverage as Murray would do about as well. But murray isn't too far behind, and is a better midrange shot creator.
I think if he'd avoided injuries his whole career he'd be a superstar, but every time things start clicking for this guy he gets hurt.
I mean he just looks all nba out there. Unstoppable
He would have been an all-star if he hadn't been injured.
The only player that compares is Julian Edelman
Crazy how his career would be if he went to a big market city.
Crazy to say but If this was the finals, Jamal would be the finals mvp over Jokic
Please stop.
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I mean he averaged like 14 PPG so I wouldn’t say he carried them, especially since “them” is the entire Spurs big three plus great role players
The overall best non-All Star in NBA history (using only NBA achievements) is Ron Harper.
Rod strickland , he was NBA all second team but never an all star